[Spy Car]

@Tara H, I’d make doubly sure the issue isn’t giardia or other similar issues. Likewise, I’d want to know there is no issue with the pancreatic tests that have been run.

Assuming there are no issues, I’d either move to a PRM raw diet (my strong preference) or move to a mushers-type formula that minimizes carbs as much as possible (for a kibbled diet).

Victors brand, which you’ve tried, has a formula called Ultra Pro which is 44/22 (protein/fat) that minimizes carbs and is high calorie (so you can feed less food). Aside from having to process too much carb-waste, the other main food-related cause of diarrhea is eating too great a volume of food. Smaller portions of high-density foods (with less or no non-essential carbs) is kinder to a dog’s GI tract.

I would rule out any vet issues.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Hey Sweet Pea, unfortunately, this forum has a dedicated anti-raw member who uses scare tactics to dissuade people from feeding the obviously best and most healthful diet for dogs.

The link to Skeptic Vet is full of easily debunked nonsense. But it gets posted in every thread as spam.

People get sick from Salmonella as a result of handling kibble all the time. People feeding raw need to follow the same precautions they do when handling raw meat for their families.

Raw feeding is pretty easy to do DIY. Bu following the prey model (80% meat/5% liver/5% other secreting organs/10 soft-edible bone) all a dog’s nutritional needs get met.

The difference in condition between a raw fed dog and a kibble fed dog are dramatic. A PRM diet will help clean up the teeth. You probably still need a dental vet check up as 60% of kibble fed dogs develop periodontal disease as a result of a high carb kibble diet. A kibble diet is hell on teeth.

PMR fed dogs have sparkling white teeth. My 4+ year old Vizsla (raw fed from 8 weeks) has zero tartar or plaque. Typical of PMR dogs.

Carbohydrates (which all kibbles abound in, but Science Diet takes to an extreme) are junk calories. They provide no essential nutrients.

You seem to understand intrinsically what your dog needs. Provide it in the right balance and you will see a transformation take place. In contrast, kibble is junk food.

Go with your intelligence on not marketing and scare tactics.

Best,

Bill

[Susan]

Hi,
Yes Victor is suppose to be good quality food for the price, I live Australia we dont get Victor we only get Canidae, Wellness, Eagle Pack, Holistic Select etc …

About the raw diet YES that would be heaps better diet for Sweet Pea better then any dry or wet dog food, but I’d avoid any raw till Sweet Pea digestive tract is strong & healthy & best to feed human raw meat, no Pet Shop raw meats, I like the Dehydrated raw where you add warm water, my boy does really well on an Australian made organic free range raw.. She might prefer the dehydrated dog food, like “Honest Kitchen”, “Kiwi Kitchen” dehydrated & “Canidae” has a new raw coated kibble, I always buy Patches kibbles when on special when there’s 25% off certain dog foods & when the use by date is about to expire & the dog food is 50-75% off, I go to Pet Barn & check out all their use by dates lol then tell staff this use by date is about the expire also I rotate between a few different brands..
This is why a dog has a short digestive tract so if any raw meat they eat is off it passes thru their stomach to small bowel very quickly so no bacterica can breed & best to feed human grade raw meat, Kibble also has contains Salmonella & we hold it so always wash your hands after touching a dry kibble….
My cat had tartar on his teeth & my vet recommend I give him raw chicken wings cut in 1/2 x 3 times a week & the raw meaty chicken bones cleaned his teeth, cause he was old his vet didn’t want to risk putting him to sleep to clean his teeth, plus it was very expensive over $450 then another $50 per teeth if removed…

Yes very good idea before you see a vet GET Dog insurance, that’s 1 big mistake I made & I’ve spent alot of money on Patch with all his health problems.

[anonymous]

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
(excerpt below)
Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

Also: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
Excellent science based articles (nothing is being sold at that site)

[Sweet Pea the Collie Mix]

Surprisingly veggies arent her thing. I think she is more of a carnivore than an omnivore. We are feeding her twice just to get her more hungry since she really doesnt enjoy eating from what I can see, but I will try rationing out her food a bit more! I really think she would blossom on a raw or homemade diet but I am not confident in my nutrition knowledge to do something like that. I researched a good kibble for a long time before choosing Victor, since it was a good price and a good quality. I really wish I could afford the high end dog food like Canidae but my budget doesn’t allow it sadly. But Victor absorbs water well and it is nutritious so Im not too worried.

[Spy Car]

Sometimes it is a texture thing. Many dogs who are averse to organs will eat them frozen or semi-frozen.

If it is only a “smell” thing (vs a texture thing), I’d advise only giving a light sear to change the nose, but not fully cooking the organ, if possible. It could take a process of more cooked, to progressive less seared, to raw.

Precutting fresh organs into 10% of the daily diet-sized pieces and then individually freezing the pieces can make one’s life easier (assuming the frozen tip works).

Bill

[Tiffany T]

Hi there, in my quest to get one of my dogs to like different organ meats, it seems hopeless.

She is a little GSD mix and she refuses to eat other types of liver and certain organs unless I cook them and hide them in her food. She eats raw beef and calf liver no problem, but discriminates other animals’ livers lol.

We are only on a partial raw diet (TOTW kibble in the AM and raw in the evenings) but my question is, is it healthy for her to just have this one specific organ? Or do I need to look into supplements? Or continue with my cooking and hiding method? lol

[RollTide10]

Thanks to everyone’s input thus far.

I’m interested in keeping Fury on a kibble diet. So for those suggesting Raw dog food, raw freeze dried, etc. Thanks for taking the time but no thanks.

Thanks for the input, Pitlove. I’ve transitioned Fury on 2 different types of food and both with a 10-day transition. Transition to his current food also took about 10 days and while his stool was soft at first, now his stool is the ideal firmness and color. The shelter was giving him chicken flavored food, he did okay with it so I figured he’s alright with chicken. His current food’s got Turkey, Duck, Quail so I think poultry is okay for him.

I’m thinking of either switching him to
Taste of the Wild Prey Angus Beef or Trout flavored next since their nutrition data are very similar to the food he’s on now.

I’m just not sure if I should start him on a rotational diet :\

[Susan]

Hi
I learnt on here “DFA” to Rotate my dog diet, also Hills say on their Vet Diet formula’s when you feed your dog the same diet year after year your dog can start reacting to certain ingredients causing food sensitivities…
Rotating a dog diet strenghten their immune system, stops food sensitivities also if the food/brand your feeding your dog isn’t balanced properly or is high in contaminates & toxins, then when you rotate your dog diet he isn’t eating the same food 24/7 causing health problems….
You will see a big difference in your dog coat, skin & over all health, my boy has IBD, if I stay on the same dry food for more then 3 months my boy starts reacting, he goes down hill, starts doing his smelly sloppy poos, so around 3 months I start to introduce a new dry food, I look for a new kibble/freeze dried raw that’s “around” the same Kcals per cup, fat% & protein %, the fiber doesn’t seem to matter withPatch as long as it’s NOT higher then 6%… He does get 2 Freeze dried Green Lipped mussels daily & something different for lunch everyday thats not a dry kibble…

Patch will be 10yrs old in November & he still acts like a puppy, running, jumping, playing ball etc people think he’s a young pup… He doesnt suffer with Arthritis, I keep him lean & all muscle, he isnt over weight to put any pressure on his joints, he gets walked twice a day & has a very active life for a dog, I think this also plays a big part in a dogs life…

Have a look at “Canidae Ancestral raw freeze dried coated formula’s..
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-grain-free-pure-ancestral-raw-coated-dry-red-meat-formula-with-lamb-goat-wild-boar/

[Debbie D]

To solve this problem and gain enough knowledge (and spend enough $$$$ at vet clinics) it took me 10 years. I am glad to say we have kicked this problem 100%. I am very sad though that my pets had to suffer for 10 years before we found the solution. Several of the answers here are on the mark, however, there are some missing pieces of information. Here are the components of the solution that results in the ear problems clearing up in addition to every other allergy issue a dog may have. You can’t do just one thing, you have to address all aspects of care:
1. Diet
2. Flea control poisons
3. Heartworm and Parasite poisons
4. Vaccinosis
5. Chiropractic
6. Vet type
We solved this problem when we started going to alternative vets and Chiropractic vets. I spent thousands at the veterinary clinic, hundreds at the alternative clinics and next to nothing at the Chiropractic vets. The alternative vets (3 of them) were all indispensable. One used Chinese herbs, another acupuncture and another (the best) used a combination of modalities including cold laser, acupuncture, Chiropractic, nutrition, and herbs. The Chiropractic vets gave the most bang for the buck but it took to a visit to five different ones to settle on our favorites. Yes, hard to believe, but a spinal adjustment can be miraculous in calming down allergies. The older the dog the more likely they need this treatment. Some Chiropractors also have cold laser treatments. Go to AVCA.org to find a pet Chiropractor. Some states require Chiros to be vets (like Texas) and others (Oklahoma) allow human Chiros to treat pets. There are advantages both ways.

So bottom line, we now feed NO commercial food but instead feed raw chicken plus a home cooked chicken and vegetable stew. We freeze it in daily portion size containers. This raw food supplemented diet eliminated all parasites (fleas, ticks, heart worms, intestinal worms, etc.) thereby eliminating our need for poisons. Raw diet also eliminated our need for vaccines (titer testing proved this.) Eliminating vaccines eliminated the need for steroid therapy that the vets kept pushing on our dogs. Eliminating flea control like Nextgard, Trifexis, Comfortis, Frontline, and Advantage was a major step forward. These chemicals/drugs were a major cause of itching in our Pugs and we tried them all. These chemicals also caused sores and weeping irritated skin.
Once our dogs were already having out of control skin issues we had to use shampoos and aloe vera in addition to dietary changes. We switched to duck and fed only (USA) Merrick commercial dog food and this was a major improvement. However, the real change came with the raw. We eventually eliminated the Merrick except for traveling/hiking and emergencies. It took about 3 months to a year of proper feeding to stop the fleas dead in their tracks. We used flea combs and Ark Naturals Neem Shampoo to check for fleas.
In one dog, we had to get a prescription of Apoquel (new drug only at select vets) to stop the itching (instead of dangerous steroids.) This was an emergency measure because itching causes scratching which leads to staph infections in ears and on the skin/belly.
The ear itching and yeast infection eventually led to staph infection also from the dogs scratching their ears. To clear this up we used a combination of products over several months. I will list the products and their purpose.
1. Zymox enzymatic ear solution (green bottle) for yeast/bacteria
2. Olive Oil drops – extra virgin for yeast/bacteria
3. Colloidal Silver (10ppm) dropped in ears for yeast/infection
4. 7-Day feminine antifungal cream (yeast only, outside of ears and bumpy noses/folds)
Zymox was best for yeast. Olive oil was the best for everything including swelling of the ear canal. Colloidal Silver kicked the secondary infections almost overnight.
Moist ears is a side effect of yeast infection, not a cause. Swimmers ear is a result not of the water but of having a dietary systemic yeast infection before your dog ever goes swimming.
Taking our dogs swimming in a creek or lake had no effect on the ears, however, swimming in a chlorinated pool did aggravate the ears and skin.
The feminine yeast cream has been a real life saver. We use the weakest version and only apply it to ear flaps. If you want Miconazole ear drops, you’ll have to go to the vet for that. But honestly, the olive oil is just as good. The problem with prescription drugs is that they usually only treat one bug, unlike the first three items on my list.
I hope someone finds this useful.
Since this is a dog food website, i will give my two cents on dog food brands (never feed dry): Highest quality, readily available brands are Merrick, Nature’s Variety, Primal Freeze Dried Raw, and Orijen. No, I would never feed Blue. I’ve been in the pet business for most of my life and I know secrets about many brands that will make your skin crawl. I will not lookup or recommend any brands other than the ones I listed.
I am chronicling my personal experiences on a blog so feel free to visit as you like. Snortlepuss.com
DogFoodAdvisor.com is one of the best resources a person can have for learning about brands. Please take the ratings seriously and only feed to top rated foods.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Debbie D. Reason: missing info

[Celt S]

He’s going to be 10 yrs the end of next month. There’s no “apparent” health issues. He’s fed a variety of foods: kibble (right now: Crave, Instict, science diet oral care, and royal canin), wet (Merricks, Crave, simply nourish, nutro), home cooked (usually whole chicken, carrot/sweet potato, oatmeal stew), and raw (chicken, beef, and pork).

[Susan]

Hi Angel,
What formula’s have you tried? have you tried a dry kibble that is just Lamb meal & Rice?? a kibble with grains she might have been fed a cheaper dry food bought from supermarket or she might have been feed a raw or cooked diet??
My rescue was the same he had to be put on Metronidazole 21days & a vet diet for 9 months to get his gut healthy again…
Have you tried adding a probiotic or kefir to her diet??

Look for a new limited ingredient kibble that is chicken free, there could be 1 or 2 ingredients in the kibble she has been eating that she is sensitive too??…

“Artemis OSO Pure” is simliar to Zignature, my boy doesnt do well on a heavy Legume diet,
It’s best to find a pet shop close by & try pet foods from the Pet Shop so they can be taken back if she gets diarrhea or wont eat it, most pet foods have a palability guarantee money back..

If you live near a Tractor Supply store look at “4Health” formula’s or “4 Health Special Care” Sensitive Stomach formula, the fiber is 3% but it mighten have anything to do with fiber %, it might be an ingredient she is sensitive too….
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/4health-special-care-sensitive-stomach-formula-for-adult-dogs-8-lb-bag?cm_vc=-10008

4Health UnTamed has simliar ingredients to Zignature & cheaper…

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/brand/4health%20Untamed/dog?cm_re=4health-_-Untamed+Page-_-Shop+Dog

Keep a diary & start writing down ingredient list & fiber % etc

[pitlove]

Hi Jeanine-

Lowering protein and phosphorus in the diet has been the staple gold standard treatment for KD patients. Raw diets tend to be high in both, so I can’t say I would recommend going back to his old diet.

Which KD canned diet is he on right now? If he doesn’t like this one, there are two more companies that make a KD specific diet you could try for him. .

[Jeanine H]

I have a 15 year old, 8 lb chihuahua named Joey. He’s basically been pretty healthy most of his life, very few problems. He does have bad teeth now, his last dental was over seven years ago because I’ve been able to keep it under control with brushing, but it now really needs to be done. He had a UTI in January that was found on routine exam, he had minimal to no symptoms. He was put on a course of antibiotics, and supposedly cleared, but I noticed no behavior change at all-he was active, good appetite and urinating and drinking normally. In February, I was a little suspicious, only because he was urinating a slight bit more often, but is 15, and it was barely perceptible difference. That test came back positive, and he had another round of antibiotics. Still no behavior change. Nothing that would tell me that he was any better, but he had no symptoms, so he was just his usual active happy self . Pre dental check of urine a few weeks ago showed UTI (still? Or again, who knows), and he was given a different antibiotic, which really showed results-my happy energetic senior because more active, more playful and running around all over! So then he was planning to be getting a dental this week, but it got postponed Wednesday because his blood values indicated that his kidney function wasn’t great. Creatinine 1.8 , BUN 51, phosphorus 7.7. He was put on KD diet, canned. He hates it, but ate it when I added scrambled egg whites. Also aluminum hydroxide twice daily-he hates that too. Question: prior to this, he was eating FreshPet grain free chicken, small dog bites. He absolutely loved it. I’ve read that raw may be beneficial with KD so would FreshPet raw instincts be a viable option for a food if he won’t eat the KD food?

[Patricia A]

Deborah it’s gets tricky feeding small dogs like ours. They’re diet is so limited in the amount they eat that I can afford to feed them what I hope to be the best nutritionally. I’m relieved you said that he’s tolerating the S&C. Started with the S&C rabbit and venison a few weeks ago after using primal .So far so good with stools and no vomiting. I know they are intolerant of too much fat. I found this out when years back I would give them some hamburger over they’re kibble and the next day they had diarrhea. Even with lean steak meat. If I gave them little of broiled steak two days in a row over they’re kibble same thing with diarrhea. With canned beef same problem. I’m now hoping that the Rabbit has less calories and fat and my chubby one will lose. But I’m waiting for this raw feeding to all go south if I keep on feeding because of the fat. Stella also came out with a stew so I will look into that.Maybe less fat and I can alternate. Thank you for posting . I thought I was the only one who was concerned about the fat in these raws.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, thanks for the comedy routine. I got a good laugh.

I read the NRC report. It says dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates. None!

Zero. Zip. Nada.

Every study ever conducted shows that dogs fed a high-carb diet have substantially less stamina and endurance than dogs eating a high-fat diet.

Anyone with eyes can see the differences in the quality of teeth between dogs fed a PRM-style raw diet and dogs fed a standard kibble diet. The former leaves teeth clean and white vs the tartar and plaque stained teeth of kibble-fed dogs, 60% of whom develop periodontal disease.

Nor can anyone with eyes fail to see the body type differences between PMR raw fed (zero calorie) dogs and those fed a high-carb diet.

De-conditioning dogs via diet–which is what feeding high-carb diets do, as shown in the scientific veterinary evidence does–takes a huge toll on health and promotes obesity.

As to pancreatic enzymes, of course the “enzymes” themselves are not “confused.” LOL. What happens is dogs become conditioned to releasing ratios of enzymes based on their diets. Kibble fed dogs release a lot of amylase.

When such dogs have an unusually high-fat meal and their pancreas releases an amount of amylase that is excessive for that “meal” (instead of the lipase that works to digest fats) that excessive amylase destroys tissue in the pancreas.

Interesting that id cats are recognized as carnivores the same pet food companies that produce cereal-based kibbles for dogs market similar formulas for cats. These companies exist to make profits not to serve pet health.

High-carb diets rob dogs of their vitality. The are no advantages and plenty of downsides to such high-carb diets.

Bill

[Susan]

Hi Heather,
are you looking for a premade raw wet diet, a Freeze Dried raw diet or a dry processed kibble??

There’s
* “Ziwi Peak” air Dried raw Venison
Original Air-Dried Venison Recipe for dogs
Ziwi Peak Moist raw Beef, Venison, Lamb
https://www.ziwipets.com/catalog/ziwi-peak-dog-nutrition/moist-dog-food

* “Stella & Chewy” Frozen Raw or Freeze Dried Raw, Pheasant or Raw Rabbit Patties
https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/freeze-dried-raw-dinners/patties/phenomenal-pheasant

* “Instinct Original”
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/original

* “Instinct” Limited Ingredients Kibble Diet
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/limited-ingredient-diet

* “Instinct Raw”
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/raw

Or go online
“Hare Today Gone Tommorrow”
sell Goat, Duck, Llama, Pork, Pheasant, Quial, Rabbit, Venison, Turkey etc
https://hare-today.com/category/meat_proteins_or_packaging_types

Also if you join a few Canine Raw feeding facebook groups, then post a post asking for meat contacts in your area that sell cheaper cuts of novel raw meats…

[Patricia A]

Thank you Spy for replying. Originally they were all eating Fromm grain free with a topper of health extension Vets Choice Chicken. Also toppers when I cooked of boiled chicken, salmon and steak if they were lucky that day. Its was a long winter and walks were very limited. Also when my three year old Chi put her nose up at the Fromm and topper Tia would steal before I had a chance to grab it from her. Hence the weight gain. My 16 year old is still her old food which at her age she’s been doing VERY well with. Of course she gets EXTRA chicken etc when others not looking at this point in her life. I finally gradually switched to the Stella’s kibble but really it’s a VERY small amount of her diet. Also cut down to tiny bit of the steak, salmon etc when we ate that because I think I was over doing the amount. So between the walks, treats cut out and her food being cut down I thought by now she would show a trimmer body type. So now you said Stella kibble is high in carbs. Even though it says low. I think her other food was average carbs so I thought I was doing better with that. Below is the list of foods I’ve been giving so far with the freeze dried. It’s ahttps://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058lways dehydrated with warm water. Thank you for your help. https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/freeze-dried-raw-dinners/patties/venison-blend https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-turkey-sardine-formula#variant=36371519122https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058
Is this kibble recipe lower in carbs? https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/raw-coated-kibble/beef-recipe

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, they did not measure a high-fat ration vs a high-carb ration.

They measured two high carb rations (both of which lack the benefits of a high-protein/high-fat-diet) against each other and found a very marginal difference in weight loss. Differences likely attributable to the drastic differences in fiber in the two meals.

This study doesn’t resolve anything.

The reason that people like myself who’ve read the literature don’t endorse carbohydrates in the diet is due to the demonstrated consequences of high-carb diets negatively impacting aerobic capacity and cutting endurance in dogs, in addition to the obesity, bad skin, bad teeth, and stresses on GI tract and organ health.

There are no advantages to feeding carbs (aside from reducing costs of the feed). Only downsides to health.

I’m not going to take seriously a study that allows domestic dogs to consume as much raw food as they want as satiety test. LOL. There is enough of the primitive canine mind resident in dogs that I’d be shocked if a dog didn’t gorge when given the opportunity to eat raw meat, fat, organs, and bone. LOL.

But a raw-fed dog given calorically appropriate meals will not act food crazed. Ask me how I know?

Such dogs will be lean, vital, and hard-muscled vs the de-condition that results directly from feeding a high-carb cereal-based diet.

I’ve seen the differences with my own eyes. No comparison.

Thank you for your interest.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

Raw food isn’t “disgusting.” LOL.

Good grief. Nothing could be more natural than a dog eating fresh/or frozen whole animal-based food.

What’s disgusting is knowing what little “meat” is in processed kibbles likely comes from products that were condemned at the slaughterhouse, including items from dead, dying, or diseased animals and contaminated by-products that are deemed unfit for human consumption.

All these are perfectly legal (and common) ingredients in commercial kibble. As long as it gets rendered, any of these disgusting ingredients are perfectly legal for pet food manufacturers to use.

Ther rest of the ration (the majority) is made up of cheap carbohydrates that have no essential place in a dogs diet and that contribute to ill health.

Some of the things one reads on this forum challenge credulity.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[aimee]

Spycar

All studies are flawed and this is no exception . There wasn’t a significant difference in amount of weight lost .. controlling calories is still key… but the authors did report a significant difference in % fat lost. ” the low fat diet group lost a significantly greater amount of total body fat than the high fat group.” This outcome is not consistent with your beliefs.

I don’t disagree that people and dogs have different requirements. It is just that people like to drag out the “Dog’s don’t require carbs” mantra as if that is somehow proof that carbohydrate shouldn’t be fed to dogs…Just pointing out the argument falls apart as people don’t need them either.

Maybe you’ll like this one better comparing ad lib access to either high fat or high carb diet full text may tell more but the high fat didn’t satiate the dogs to the point that they didn’t overeat and gain weight

Adult female dogs were fed ad libitum for 25 weeks a high-fat diet (51% of energy from fat) or a high-carbohydrate diet (59% of energy from carbohydrate). Dogs fed the high-fat diet gained more body weight than did dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet. In both groups of dogs 78-80% of the increase in body weight was fat. The high-fat diet may have been utilized more efficiently for body fat gain than the high-carbohydrate diet; alternatively, it is possible to explain the increased body fat accumulation in dogs fed the high-fat diet on the basis of the small observed difference in energy intake. Dogs fed the high-fat diet consumed slightly more energy (13%) which resulted in the accumulation of more than twice the amount of fat accumulated in dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet during the 25 week study.

Have you read Schauf’s studies on satiety comparing high fat to high carb? No difference found

Oh my…. you certainly haven’t seen the same high fat raw fed dogs as I have “A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle.” Do you have any references to support that statement?

I’m pretty carb neutral neither for or against. For weight loss I like to see a high percent of calories coming from protein and lower fat levels to allow for the dog to be able to eat a decent volume of food and for owner satiety and the carbs fall where they may.

In general i’m not a fan of high fat diets I see way too much canine obesity as owners don’t control portions, so I’m all for a less energy dense diets.

.

[Spy Car]

Ryan, I appreciate the spot you are in getting diametrically opposed advice.

In the years I’ve fed a PMR style raw diet I’ve come to be able to spot raw fed dogs when I see them. It has happened a good number of times when I met “strange dogs,” and usually getting the “how did you know…well, of course, you know” type responses.

And I’ve been on the other side, where strangers have approached me and known immediately that my dog is raw fed.

You can tell when a dog doesn’t eat carbs. Every part of their condition from the skin, fur, teeth, breath and especially lean muscle mass with low body fat is vastly better. They stand out markedly from the condition of kibble-fed dogs.

Second-best is feeding a kibbled ration that reduces carbs as much as possible.

Here is a link to the type of formula I’d like to see.

https://victorpetfood.com/product-items/grain-free-ultra-pro/?portfolioCats=133%2C134%2C165%2C135%2C153%2C159%2C160

Disclaimer, I’ve never fed this food (as I feed raw) and I have no relationship with Victor’s. It is just an example of a reasonably inexpensive alternative called Victor Ultra Pro. It is a 42% protein/22% fat formula that they claim is 81% animal protein and has 14% carbs. Hard to do better than that with a kibbled diet.

It is nutrient dense (high calorie) at 479kcal/cup, so you’d probably need to feed about 2/3 the portion of a less dense food (depending). Maybe less. That also figures in cost. The volume of poop would also be cut significantly. Not just nice for you, but much kinder for a dog (especially one with issues) not to move extraordinary amounts of waste through their GI tract.

Since the fat provides a sustained energy supply, you could feed once a day (at days end) and your dog could then go to sleep instead of carrying around a belly full of food (which is actually really hard on dogs, especially breeds like yours with his conditions).

The fat in this sort of food would keep him satisfied (w/o the need for obscene amounts of fiber) and would supply steady energy.

I’d expect triglycerides to improve on the small chance the problem is diet related.

I would definitely ask for a thyroid panel to be run at the vet. I’m a little surprised they have not done so already.

I’d resist the low-fat/high-fiber-diet. I think your dog would suffer from such diet. It is no wonder he doesn’t like it. No diet could be more unnatural for a canine to eat. I’ve seen too many dogs on this misguided sort of diet, they never fare well. It is about the worst diet one could feed a dog in terms of nutrition.

I’m sorry you are getting contradictory advice. But there is no question which way I’d go based on the nutritional needs of dogs described in the veterinary science.

Best,

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@ aimee, dogs are not people. We have evolved with very different nutritional needs.

Human beings have salivary amylase, for example, the digestive enzyme necessary to convert starches. Dog’s lack salivary amylase.

it is a common problem that pet owners anthropomorphize their dogs and (wrongly) believe they have the same nutritional requirements and same metabolism we do, but that runs against evidence-based science.

Fat is an essential nutrient for dogs, as is protein. Carbohydrates are nonessential. Completely unnecessary in a canine diet. Their needs are not the same as those of humans.

Your accusations of ignoring the veterinary literature are false. Satiety studies involving low-fat rations require loading rations with fiber, which is hellish for dogs. Moving that much waste (and creating that much poop) is very hard on dogs vs the efficiency of metabolizing much smaller quantities of fat and protein.

I think you are confusing healthful salads and greens that are great for people with what’s good for dogs. And that ain’t a high carb diet. Nothing could be a less appropriate choice for good canine health.

Carbs are in modern processed dog food to make food inexpensive. That comes at a cost to dog’s health. A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle. A high protein/high-fat diet that reduces carbs as much as possible is a distant second choice, but miles ahead of an unhealthful fiber and cereal-based “low-fat” diet.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, there is no such thing as “nonessential fats.” Using the term in this fashion is scientifically incorrect. The fact is any level of carbohydrates in a canine diet is what is nonessential. Dogs do not require ANY carbohydrates in their diets to thrive. And the calories are better derived from essential fat and protein sources.

Optimal calories from fat are about 50-60% of calories (remembering fat has 2.25 times as many calories per gram as either protein or carbohydrates.

Replacing too many calories from protein with carbs leads to muscle tears and inadequate protein to build and repair muscle tissues and carbohydrate calories replacing fat reduces aerobic capacity and endurance, while promoting weight gain and tooth decay.

The reason pet food companies have so-called “weight loss” formulas built around high carb foods (besides the low-quality and low-cost carbs being a way to maximize profits) is that too many people don’t cut back on the amount of food when they feed higher-quality high-protein/high-fat alternatives. But stuffing a dog with a high carb diet is the path to obesity, It doesn’t work.

It is much better to serve smaller portions of high-calorie food. The fat in high-protein/high-fat meals satisfies a dogs hunger (and provides sustainable energy) where a dog fed high carb meals is always hungry and lacks the energy stores for sustained activity.

Trying to get a dog to lose weight on high carb rations is a recipe for failure. It doesn’t work.

Best to get rid of the nonessential calories from carbohydrates that are unnecessary in a canine diet. Just look at the body type of any PMR-style raw fed dog to see the drastic difference eating no carbohydrates makes in promoting a lean muscular body type.

The best thing one can do for a dog for a dog with disk or hip issues is to get it lean and strong. A high-protein/high-fat diet is the key to that end. High-carb diets cut vitality, crowd our essential nutrients, and lead to obesity and health issues.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Hey Ryan,

The best way to feed is always “by condition” rather than any fixed about. That means reducing calories if the dog is too heavy and increasing if the dog is getting too lean. On the last point, Americans tend to have very skewed ideas about what’s a healthy weight for dogs. It is best for dogs to be lean.

The two best ways to assess “condition” are:

1) To palpate the ribs with an eye towards assessing the degree of fat layer over the ribs. Ideally, that fat layer is very slight. In an obese dog, there will be a thick fat layer. Either way, this is your standard of measure as you adjust diet. It gives you a “bechmark.”

2) The other useful measure is to observe the dog from overhead and see to what degree it has a “tuck” (waist). Obese dogs will have very little (or no) tuck. Again, the tuck becomes a secondary benchmark.

As to diet, feeding low-fat is the worst thing one can do to reduce weight, While it seems counter-intuitive, dogs naturally metabolize fats as their optimal energy source. It was what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on. Carbohydrates on the other hand cut stamina and lead to obesity.

If you can’t do a balance PMR style raw diet the best thing you could do is to slowly transition to a high protein/high fat (low carb) diet and to feed fewer overall calories while you slowly bring down the weight.

The worst move is to increase the carbohydrates (by cutting fats) because those carbs (along with overfeeding and diet-linked de-conditioning) are the culprits in promoting obesity.

Best,

Bill

[Spy Car]

@anon101, my very outstanding traditional (one with a high degree of breed specific knowledge with Vizslas as she owns the grand-sire my dog) had some concerns when she learned I was feeding my (then 8-week old pup) a raw diet.

Prime among them was a legitimate concern that the diet provides a proper mineral balance. When I explained my awareness of the calcium/phosphorus ratios and my dietary plan to address the needs, her concerns went away.

In the 4 and a half years since, she has been blown away by the health and condition of my Vizsla. His teeth are gleaming white. Breath fresh. Shiny fur. Strong and clearly rippling muscles. Eyes clear. He doesn’t smell. He carries no body fat. His stamina is off the charts. He winds down easily when it is time. And his blood work is optimal.

My vet loves what raw feeding has done for my dog. She knows Vizslas intimately and is very encouraging of what balanced raw feeding has done for my dog.

He has not suffered from the dental problems, obesity, lack of energy, skin and fur problems, and other ills typical of kibble fed dogs. We had a large “puppy group” who used to meet up almost daily when our pups were young, who still get together. Those dogs (all kibble fed) are beginning to look aged compared with my Vizsla. Not a close call. Other owners comment on the difference. It isn’t subtle.

Strangers who meet my Vizsla always assume he’s a big puppy. It is what vibrant health looks like.

I understand you have an anti-raw position. I think it is very misguided.

Bill

[Susan]

Hi Ryan,
if your cooking Chicken & Rice start adding some veggies, broccoli, carrot etc & start balancing 1 of his meals a day or over the week add things that will balance his diet over 1 week, in Australia we have “NAS Digestiavite Plus Powder” I had to mix thru Patches cooked or raw meal was just 1/2 a teaspoon & it didnt smell of vitamins, it smelt nice like spinach & kale its green powder & has everything to balance a dogs diet…..
Take back the Hills 1/d dry kibble, I would of gotten him the wet Hills Digestive Care I/d Chicken, Vegetables & Rice wet can food, it smells really good, its balanced & formulated for a few health problems, sounds like your dog doesn’t like dry kibble, I wouldn’t flare up his Allergies, I’ve been feeding Patch Chicken since March, the Wellness Core Large Breed formula cause the fat is low/medium, protein % is med/high & carbs are low & Kcals are 345 per cup & Patch does well on it BUT now he has red paws, red around his mouth, he cant eat too much Chicken, the chicken agrees with his IBD/Stomach but not his skin… Have you tried “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato ? I buying a bag tomorrow, my cat even likes the Wellness kibbles but she wouldnt eat te TOTW kibble also teh Wellness is palabity money back guaranteed…you have to read thru all the Wellness formula’s ingredients for no lentils, the Natural Balance Potato & Duck or Sweet Potato & Fish doesnt have lentils or chickpeas or Probiotics…
Ive read that Probiotics die by the time we get the kibble or once exposed to heat?? I dont know if this is correct..

Tin Salmon & Sardines in Spring Water or Olive Oil will help balance his diet, Sardines are very healthy, Sardines have vitamins minerals, Omega 3 are very healthy, just read salt % & buy brand with the lowest salt %, add 2 spoons to 1 of his meals a day, also crush up 1 egg shell a day & add to 1 of his cooked meal for calcium…
I often buy tin salmon in spring water, for making sandwiched the smaller cans, I drain all the spring water & add a few pieces of boiled sweet potatoes, 1/2 salmon & 1/2 boiled sweet potato & mix & give only 1/2 for a meal & the other 1/2 the next day… dogs love fresh fish..
I’d look at “Judy Morgan DVM” face book page, look at her videos & “Pancreatitis Diet” her “IBD Diet” she has easy to make cooked balanced meals, you just put everything in a Slow Cooker, then freeze meals, probably healthier then feeding dry kibbles…
Your dog is smart & he can smell the off meat in the dry kibble or he can smell the vitamins & omega oils in the vet diets something is turning him off…

[Rosemarie A]

Hello!

This is my first post. I’ve been lingering for a while and trying to absorb as much information as I can with raw feeding. I’ve started about a month and a half ago. I’ve been prepping using the BARF model. I want to introduce raw whole fish to their diet. I have mackerel that has been frozen for almost 2 weeks. I am very hesitant in feeding my 4 dogs mackerel with all that bone. Any opinions or thoughts with using a meat grinder to decrease the chances of getting bone lodged into their systems? I’ve read that mackerel is a bit of a tough bone. They’ve had canned sardines but I wanted to try a non-canned fish. Should I cook it and take the bones out? Anyone have any experience with using their meat grinder for fish? Thanks for any advice.

[Spy Car]

Hello Jan,

I strongly believe that raw feeding is the healthiest diet for dogs, but it is not a panacea.

The greatest benefit would be to reduce the weight of your lab. Reducing (or eliminating) carbohydrates via a raw diet (or mixed diet) helps. Dogs burn fat very efficiently and while it seems counter-intuitive, fat metabolism helps with weight loss.

The pork femur bones, sadly, are a poor choice, as a bone source. They are too hard to the “eaten” and therefore pose a hazard to teeth and risk obstructions id swallowed in large pieces. Bone-in chicken pieces are far preferable.

On a budget, you’d spend less if you find whole ingredients and feed according to the Prey Model 80/10/10 (meat/soft-edible bones/organs) formula.

Chicken feet are a good source of edible bone and do contain a lot of glucosamine. Couldn’t hurt. But weight loss is the critical issue.

Aim to slowly reduce weight. A raw diet promotes a lean body type. Getting rid of the carbs is key.

Best,

Bill

[crazy4cats]

Hi MX-
Sounds like ProPlan is a 5 star food for your dog! Just keep an eye on his stools, coat and energy level. It’s impossible to tell the quality of the ingredients by the label. For example, not all chicken meal or corn is created equal. Some meals may have a lot more bone than muscle meat than others. There are also different grades of corn. You have to trust the company to do the right thing.

I used to think the same as you. But, there are a few posters on here that have changed my mind. I now feed Purina occasionally as well. I mostly keep an eye on the calories, fat and fiber now. I have two neutered labs that can easily get chubby if I don’t. I’m also staying away from kibble that uses mostly legumes as their carb.

If you do add anything to your dog’s diet that is not complete and balanced, try to keep it under 15% to ensure he is getting all the important nutrients to keep him healthy. I add a little canned or commercial raw to their kibble which are complete. But, then I also add leftovers, eggs, or fish occasionally.

Good luck! I’m glad you found a food he likes!

[crazy4cats]

Is this a raw or cooked diet? If cooked, BalanceiT’s website can help you formulate balanced recipes.

[Patti P]

Our dog, Gracie, is a mixed breed “best dog ever” and is 11 years old. For most of her life she has had bouts of diarrhea and has been given metronidazole many, many times. Recently her liver enzymes were very high and she was having very soft stools … like soft serve ice cream. Our veterinarian suggested we try the Royal Canin HP. We had been feeding her Stella & Chewy’s Frozen Raw Patties. She was doing very well on this diet but the vet wanted to try the hydrolyzed protein Royal Canin to see if the liver enzymes would lower. We started with the Royal Canin HP canned and her stools were still very soft … although the occasional explosive diarrhea stopped. I then added the dry kibble Royal Canin HP variety that contains potatoes … I believe it is called Hydroloyzed PS. I would give her ⅔ dry and ⅓ canned. Her stools continued to be very soft. So, about 5 days ago I stopped giving her the canned and her stools are more formed now. I did some research and learned that carrageenan, an ingredient added to canned food to hold it together, can be an irritant to the intestinal tract. Royal Canin HP canned contains carrageenan. So, I think stopping the canned version helped.
However, Gracie doesn’t really care for the dry by itself. She will normally eat anything but now eats a few bites, walks away, eats a few more bites, walks away, etc. Last night she threw up after eating the dry. This morning she wouldn’t eat it at all. So, I ended up fixing some boiled chicken and rice for her which she gobbled right up. I am now searching for alternatives. I hope this helps with your decision about the Royal Canin HP.

[pitlove]

Hi emmygirl-

If your dog is truly allergic to all the proteins that you’ve listed you will be hard pressed to find a food he can eat aside from a theraputic diet from the vet that has been hydrolyzed. If that was not offered to you as an option then it is likely that a hydrolyzed diet would impact his PLE negatively.

It sounds like at this point home preparing his meals using BalanceIt is going to be your best option. Especially if you are working with the BalanceIt team and your vet to create a diet that is specific to his illness.

My suggestion would be to get a crock pot and cook in bulk for him and freeze the meals. If you are a member of Costco or Sams you could buy meat veggies etc in bulk and it might be more cost effective that way. Most people that feed raw or home cooked meals set aside a day during the week or on the weekend as a “meal prep day”. It can be time consuming, but it allows you to prepare (most people do a months worth) food in advance for him and freeze it, so all you have to do is thaw it out twice a day. That would be my suggestion to you.

[Ryan K]

Hi Susan! Thank you for all of that info!

I am not sure that I would go raw or take him to a nutritionist. I might one day but right now I want to keep trying dry foods.

I should have mentioned before that I have been having a hard time with him and foods since I decided to take him off his old Zignature Kangaroo recipe and put him on rx Hydrolized protein by Royal Canin and Science Diet Z/D. Both of these cleared his skin up immediately but made him incredibly…OFF. He seemed very agitated and unlike himself when he was on these two prescription foods. He seemed almost restless and irritable. Someone mentioned that it might have been the super high % of Omega 3’s in those diets so I got him off of them and ever since I have been trying new foods. He has been a mess since that. I haven’t had him on one food that has worked well. I am not sure if those rx foods just really messed with his gut and now he has still not recovered or what but I need to get it sorted out. I made sure that the Prescription food by Hills has low Omega’s this time because that was a concern. I also noticed that while on the Hydrolized protein diets his poops were incredibly loose and runny. That was a big part in my taking him off the ZD and trying the Royal Canin Hydrolized. I didn’t like how soupy his poops were. He has anal gland issues so I would prefer him to have a food that gives him a more firm stool. But, at this point…I just need his stomach and appetite to normalize. That’s my priority. If I find something that he actually EATS and doesn’t seem irritated by I am sticking to it. He did well on the Kangaroo by Zignature but the lentils make him super itchy and his ears get very gooey and gross when he eats it. I had him on Orijen six fish for probably the first 2 years of his life (he’s 9 now) and he loved that but continually had ear issues…I realized it was the probiotics and stopped and they cleared up. I have had him on Acana which he likes but again…ear issues…skin issues….not fun.

I did get several cans of the prescription diet you mentioned. Oddly enough, he does not like it! It’s so weird because he normally loves canned food but he sniffs it and turns away. I am hopeful that the fact that he is still eating boiled chicken and rice that that is a good sign? If he’s not eating anything I would be very scared. I think maybe I am overthinking this and giving him too many options and messing his system up. If his triglycerides come back as normal and there is nothing to worry about I will go from there. If that is a problem…I am not sure what the next step is. I think I also need to get him more exercise. He isn’t overweight…the vet says he looks healthy…but, he is very sedentary. I have a fenced yard and he runs around from time to time but nothing very regular. I might start walking him around the neighborhood. Maybe that will work up his appetite and help regulate him a bit more.

Thank you very much for your amazing help!! 🙂

[Ryan K]

Thanks for that info! The vet put him on this diet because his stomach lining on the x-rays appeared inflamed and he was eating a lot of weeds and vomiting. I wound up taking him to an emergency vet for the latest batch of bloodwork because he was panting all night. When I have the results of that said to just go with the RX diet the prior but had mentioned and to have his blood drawn again. I went back and had his blood taken but have not gotten the results back so I don’t know if his triglyceride level has gone down or not. I am praying and crossing my fingers that he has normal levels. The level was crazy though. It said the normal range was under around 290 and his was 2,081! What the heck?! I don’t even give him table scraps! Anyway, do you happen to know how much in cups I should be feeding a dog his size? I’m guessing it’s twice a day? He’s a grazer so it’s tough. With rice and chicken I am not sure since I am just putting it down for him to eat right away. So confused.

[Ryan K]

My question is a little bit layered but the main one is how much boiled chicken and rice for a bland diet should I feed my 26 lb dachund terrier mix? I have no idea if I’m supposed to do a cup twice a day or two cups twice a day? I’ve been doing one cup twice a day since yesterday. I don’t want to underfeed him.

Also, does anyone have any ideas why my dogs triglycerides were so high? Is that usually a cholesterol issue? My vet made me take him back after fasting and draw blood again yesterday. I’m concerned this is a serious issue. All his other blood work was great. The triglyceride was the only high abnormal level. His urine mircoalbumin canine reflex was elevated too. I have been having a hard time getting him to eat over the last few months. He has become very picky. I had comprehensive x rays done 2 weeks ago when he seemed to be in pain. He was tensed up and shaking for an entire night and had runny stool. He has slipped a disc in the past so I was worried it was a flare up of his IVD but the vet said it seemed ok in the x rays. His X-ray also showed moderate hip dysplasia. My biggest concern though is his eating. I just ordered a bag of Hills I/D naturals low fat. It’s a little better then the regular I/D in that it’s not full of corn and fillers. The fat content is 7%. My worry is the fiber content. It says 1.5%. Shouldn’t this be higher for a RX food? Should I be concerned with that? Overall, I’m just a worried mess over my dog and his sudden lack of interest in kibble and his shaking and stomach seeming to be upset. I want him to feel better fast.

Also, does anyone have any idea if Nutro Healthy Weight would be a better substitute for a low fat food for him? Is that a decent food? The fat content is 7% on that and the fiber is 11%. I’m wondering if I should just return the RX and go with the Nutro. So confused! Any ideas would be great.

[Susan]

Hi Marjorie,
when I got my rescued dog that afternoon while he was doing a wee he was weeing blood, I quickly rung the rescue lady & she said contact our vet, the vet said we’ll do Ultra Scan while he’s being desexed on Monday, after he was desexed, the vet rung me & said he has Urinary Crystals probably from being used as a breeding dog he has caught an infection, I said what happens now? the vet said, he needs to be on a vet diet for 6 weeks & eat no other foods, no treats, nothing or the crystal wont dissolve properly, when I went to picked him up she gave me a cartoon of the Royal Canine S/O Urinary cans x 12 cans & a bag of the Royal Canine S/O Urinary dry kibble & said feed the dry R/C S/O kibble for breakfast & for dinner feed him 1/2 a can of the R/C S/O wet can food, then she said, I’m given him cartoon of the wet can food so he has variety just incase he wont eat the dry S/O kibble, then she booked him to come back in 7 weeks for another Ultra Scan to see if all his crystal had dissolved, 7 weeks later we went back to see vet, he had his Ultra Scan & no more crystals, they had all disovled, the vet said now put him back on normal food & thats when my nightmare started, Patch had IBD & while he was eating the Royal Canine S/O wet & dry food it was agreeing with him & he didnt have any reactions to ingredients…

The only thing about the Hills & Royal Canine vet diets for Urinary problems is the fat, it’s a bit high, so if your girl has Pancreatitis make sure you tell the vet about the higher fat in these vet diets, the fat in the wet can food is around 17-18% the dry kibble is 17%max
Not recommended for (contraindications):
Chronic renal failure, metabolic acidosis
Heart failure
Pancreatitis or history of pancreatitis
Hyperlipidaemia
In conjunction with the use of urine-acidifying drugs
Pregnancy
Lactation
Growth

Feeding a vet diet for 2 months will work out cheaper then if your girl gets a blockage & needs an operation, it will be more expensive, I dont think she needs to be on the Urinary vet diet for 6 months ?? Patches crystals all dissolved within 6 weeks & he had a lot of crystals, they look like big rock salts…

I ended up contacting a Naturopath Jaqueline Rudan for Patches IBD
Here’s a Acidifying Diet, Urinary Crystals Diet, it gives you an idea about ingredients to feed after her crystals have dissolved with the vet diet, its a raw diet but it can be cooked as long as there’s no cooked bone…
http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/Shop/2016/03/15/acidifying-diet-urinary-crystals/

[Roger O]

Hi, I was wondering why Endless Valley Gather is no longer on the Editor’s Choice list? I started feeding my 9-1/2 year old Lowchen this as a supplement to his raw diet, and he’s doing extremely well on it. Should I be concerned?

Thanks!
Roger

[anonymous]

Excerpt from an article written by a veterinarian that specializes in nutrition. She is affiliated with one of the best veterinary medical centers in the country.
Hope it helps someone, if not the OP, maybe someone else reading this.
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

Also: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

Excellent science based articles (nothing is being sold at that site)

[Susan]

Hi Jenny,

look at “Natural Balance” LTD Sweet Potato & Bison formula, Sweet Potato & Venison formula..
https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/special-category-limited-ingredient-diets

You’re better off doing a food Elimination Diet this way you will know 100% what ingredients your dog is sensitive too, these salvia, blood & fur tests give false positives..
You have a small dog so home cooked or raw meals would probably work out cheap, just make sure diet is balanced after 1-2 months & diet is high in Omega 3 ingredients & oil for skin.

Look for a kibble or wet can food that has 1 novel protein & 1 carb & start from there…
also bath in a medicated shampoo, weekly or twice a week baths are best to wash off any allergens on their paws, skin etc
If you want to stay with vet diets look at the “Royal Canine” Select Protein, PR-Potato & Rabbit wet can & dry vet formula, the Natural Balance limited ingredient formula’s are similair & cheaper, there’s also “Rayne Canada” vet formula’s have Rabbit, Crocodile, Kanagroo.
http://www.raynecanada.ca/canine-diets/

[FIREMAN29]

I’m not looking for veterinary advice per say, as you state I can call them up at any point and get advice from them. I’m looking to make sure what and how much I’m feeding him jives. All the food is was ground up through a grinder and thoroughly mixed together. He hasn’t vomited at all, and is still defecating on a normal schedule with the exception of the one incident. He is still energetic, has a normal appetite, is not displaying any muscular weaknesses, bloating, and has been drinking water normally. I don’t suspect a bowl obstruction at all, I appreciate the concern but spending hundreds of dollars based on a complete lack of symptoms isn’t responsible either.

I was under the impression this forum was pro-raw diets, and a place where I could seek some conventional wisdom. The websites I’ve gone to are all regarded very highly and I’d like to think that I can sniff out BS when I smell it, or read it in this case. If information doesn’t jive especially when held up to other professional literature then I don’t bother with it.

I’ll seek advice elsewhere…

[FIREMAN29]

Hello,

This is for anyone who can help me. I have a 2.5yo +/-95# male AmStaff. He is a great dog but has been plagued with digestive issues since he was a pup. We went all the way up the kibble food chain ultimately having to get him the most natural gain free, chicken free, high protein, high priced food on the market. And he still showed some opposition to eating it and would drink tons of water a day. On June 1st my wife and I finally got tired of all the issues and switched him to a raw diet. I read several books and web sites trying to gain all the knowledge I could. We transitioned him over 8 days essentially switch and 1/8 of his food out each day. He was more excited to eat and seemed happier after even a few days. He was pooping less, I mean this in terms of shear volume, his poop was firm and smelled less, and he seemed to stop straining when he pooped.

A couple days ago he woke us up around 3am and we had to rush him outside as he had a photo finish with totally watery stool. He had also felt a bit warmer to the touch leading up to that. I’m confident that the meat was not contaminated (given that we ate form the same batch), and we made sure to clean everything thoroughly throughout the transition and after. I went back to the trusty internet and books and couldn’t find anything relating at least within the area of what he’s experiencing. It was a lot of “WebMD” type of reading where he could just be having an upset stomach and it will pass or I may be killing him slowly in which case rush him to the vet immediately.

He still seems happy, and energetic, and hasn’t gotten as warm as frequently as he has since those two days ago.

Food Break Down: 13oz 85/15 Ground Beef or Lean Ground Turkey
3 oz Meaty Bone (usually a stripped turkey leg portion or cow bone of some sort, he doesn’t like chewing them so I have to break them up which is a pain.)
4 oz Organ Meat (only 2 oz if all we have is liver)
2-3 oz additonally of fruits and veggies

One meal a week we will give him fish.

Just looking to see if we even doing this the right way. I thinking that from what I read we put in too much fat but I can’t be sure. If anyone could shed some light on this I would be very grateful. We want the best for our guy and we know we can get this right just need some guidance.

[haleycookie]

If she’s allergic to raw chicken then she’ll likely be allergic to chicken meal or deboned chicken. Typically from what I’ve seen in people that start in a kibble diet and the dog is allergic to chicken meal will often not be allergic to the raw chicken because it’s unprocessed. So I wouldn’t try with chicken meal just to be safe. Chicken fat though, is different. It isn’t a protein so she probably won’t react to that. Many hypoallergenic foods with say, salmon, as the ingredient will use chicken fat as the oil/fat in the food so I wouldnt be AS scared of that as the chicken meal. But if it makes you feel better and you wanna be extra safe I would avoid the fat as well.

[anonymous]

It most likely has nothing to do with the food
A veterinary dermatologist would be your best bet, if that is not within your means, I would work very closely with your primary vet and do exactly as he says, I would disregard any advice that I read online/forums and such, tons of misinformation.
Per the search engine:
/forums/topic/dog-chewing-paws-raw-and-vet-prescribed-food-making-it-worse/#post-116655

/forums/topic/prescription-diet-and-pooping-too-much/#post-109822

PS: There is no cheap way out of this. Veterinary care is expensive nowadays. It is what it is.
From what you have described, it sounds like your dog may need the expertise of a specialist. It may be cost effective in the long run, rather than going back and forth to the regular vet (bandaid treatments) and trying all kinds of different foods with no significant results.

[Susan]

Hi Baileysmom,

Yes Patch was the same, his skin & paws got worse while on a Vet diet that had Corn Starch, he started to get smelly yeasty skin & paws..
Look for a new kibble that has 1 novel protein & 1-2 carbs, has limited ingredients & see how he does….. Patches yeasty smelly skin went away when he started a raw diet, 3 days after eating just raw Kangaroo & green blended vegetables, Patches yeasty itchy skin went away, I bathed him in “Malaseb Medicated Shampoo & his smelly yeasty skin didn’t return..
There’s no point doing a elimination food trial with the vet diet he’s eating made his itch increase since being on this vet diet food….
If itchy skin paws, or ears become worse, you need to stop the vet diet & try another formula, when you start a elimination diet using a vet diet you only continue feeding the diet if skin is stable & skin paws have improved then after 6weeks just eating teh vet elimination diet, then you start your elimination diet by adding 1 new ingredient every 6 weeks & see if skin starts to itch & get worse again, then if skin paws ears itch go red etc you stop that new ingredient, continue just feeding the vet diet wait for paws, skin are stable again, then when skin isnt itchy or smells yeasty before adding another new ingredient…..Best to start a elimination food diet in the cooler, colder months when environment allergens aren’t high…
Are you bathing twice a week or weekly…….Baths wash off any allergens on skin & paws, using a medicated shampoo is best, it puts moisture back into skin, reduces itch & redness & kills any bacteria & yeast that might be on skin & paws..

Have you tried “Royal Canine” Select protein PR – Potato & Rabbit formula? there’s the wet can & dry kibble formula’s, Vet diets for skin problems are higher in omega 3, what is needed when dogs has skin problems..

I’d take back the vet diet that has made skin worse & ask can you try another vet diet, look at the “Royal Canine Select Protein” formula’s & see how he does..
or get a refund & try something else..
*https://www.royalcanin.com/products/vet/food-sensitivity

* Hills have their D/D range
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-dd-canine-potato-and-duck-formula-dry

* “Natural Balance” LTD Sweet Potato & Bison or Potato & Duck or Sweet Potato & Fish NB formula’s. https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/special-category-limited-ingredient-diets

* “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato or Salmon & Potato formula’s https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/simple-dogs

[Jan I]

My 8yr. old 140lb. Lab mix has recently started suffering from hip dysplasia. I am really reluctant to the idea of surgery. I started him on glucosamine Chews and switched his dog food from Purina Pro to Nitro dog food. Then I read about chicken feet and started feeding him those for his afternoon treat. That got me interested in the raw food diet and I found My Pet Carnivore web sight. I ordered a case of ground Green Beef Tripe with Trachea & Gullet and an order of pork femur bones. I am a widow on a strict budget and plan on feeding raw and kibble. I learned not to feed both at same time. Haven’t received my order yet but interested in feedback and suggestions. Also wondering if anyone feeding raw diet can tell me if this will give him any relief with his problem. Digger means the world to me. He’s been my greatest comfort through my husbands illness and recent death. I never sought his comfort he just gives. The only time this lug of a dog gives me problems is when I try and push a pill down his throat or hide it in food….he knows and refuses. He has been walked pretty much consistently since I got him.

[a c]

James P. Thank you for sharing. I also feed Wellness Core Grain Free Reduced fat. I mix it with Annamaet Grain Free Lean Reduced fat. I believed both are rated with 5 stars by dogfoodadvisor.com. I think Wellness Core is slight higher in protein and fiber, but I like the fact that it is available at local pet stores.

I made a mistake and feed commercial raw last year, after everyone told me raw is the best, to my 10 years old girls. That triggered pancreatitis to one girl. She was put on Science Diet ID wet food by our vet. I still have a few Science Diet ID cans on hand. That’s my to go food when she doesn’t act right.

I also add some fresh vegetable and the meat that we have for dinner to the kibbles, and sometimes a spoon full of wet food as topper.

My two 11 years old’s annual check up is coming up. Do your miniature schnauzers have any schnauzer bumps?

[Susan]

Hi Baileys Mom,
Join this face book group, link below, 2 Dermatologist frequent this group + 1 of the Admins dog suffers with Yeast, her dog is allergic to her own yeast, it’s rare but it happens… https://www.facebook.com/groups/240043826044760/
As they age their allergies get worse… Are you seeing a Dermatologist?

My boy also gets yeasty paws, red around mouth & yeasty smelly skin but only when he eats certain ingredients he is sensitive too & when he walks on grass & wet grass..
He suffers with Food Sensitivities, Seasonal Environment Allergies & IBD, this last Summer has been his WORST Summer he has ever had in the 5 yrs I’ve owned him.
I live Australia & we did not have a Autunm this year, it went from hot Summer straight to cold Winter, my vet also said she is seeing heaps more dogs suffering with Environment Allergies last Summer 2017-2018….. Cause of climate change & our Summers are getting hotter & hotter, animals, plants etc are all suffering…

Make sure when you cook or do a raw diet it’s balanced properly & is high in Omega 3 oils, as Omega 3 is Neutral anti-inflammatory. Here’s “Balance It” site, https://secure.balanceit.com/

*also have you tried “Rayne Canada” vet diets? http://www.raynecanada.ca/canine-diets/
Ranye has Kangaroo, Crocodile & Rabbit formula’s, ingredients in Rayne formula’s seem a bit better
….also did you try the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb that’s what Patch ended up doing really good on for 2 yrs then he became very unwell last Novemeber after I moved he stopped eating his TOTW… listen to your dog if he doesnt want to eat something, dont feed it, return the food & get a refund….We have just had a heap of dogs die & get Megaesophagus in Australia from the Advance Dermocare formula.. Test that were done found very high in toxins, everyone is still waiting for test results…the poor Police dogs are feed the Advance Dermocare or Advance dog foods..
Patch never did well on the Australian prescription vet diets for his skin, they would clear up his skin problem but not his red paws & then he’d start reacting with his IBD cause the fat was too high.. One good thing the Skin Vet Diets are very high in Omega oils, but this upset Patches stomach, he gets bad acid reflux, I wonder if that’s why Bailey is feeling yuk & miserable..being a Shih Tzu mix, they can suffer from Pancreatitis, so be careful with high fat diets, we don’t realise cause we just want them to stop their itching & scratching it drives me nuts so imagine the poor dog feeling so itchy 24/7..

I use “Sudocrem” on Patches paws & around his mouth & anywhereon his skin that’s red, Sudocem is a anti-fungal, anti-bacterial healing cream for Dermatitis, Eczema, Nappy Rash, Pressure Sores, I apply every night before bed so he has a good sleep & in morning on his paws before he goes outside for his walk, the Sudocrem is a thick cream & also protects their skin & paws from allergens.

Also “Canine Skin Solutions” on FaceBook is Dr Karen Helton Rhodes, DVM, DACVD & Dr Terri Bonenberger, DVM, DACVD both are Veterinary Dermatologists. Good site with true information..
https://www.facebook.com/CanineSkinSolutionsInc/

* Here’s their “Facts & Myths about Yeast Dematitis in dog”s..
http://www.healthyskin4dogs.com/blog/2015/9/8/facts-myths-about-yeast-dermatitis-in-dogs

There’s alot of bad information on the internet about why dogs get yeasty, smelly, itchy skin, ears, paws etc potaoes, high carb starchy foods, high sugar diets are suppose to cause yeasty smelly dogs….Not true… its only when your dog is sensitive to certain ingredients they will get yeasty itchy smelly skin, ears, paws…. Patch can’t eat rice, oats, barley, tapioca causes red itchy paws & smelly yeasty skin, bad farts sloppy poos & carrots cause very itchy ears & he shakes & shakes his head/ears..

The only way 100% to find out what foods Bailey is sensitive too is to start a food elimination diet BUT cause he probably has environment allergies as well it’s hard cause you might feed him say rice & then he starts scratching 20mins after he has eaten the rice or new ingredient your testing but he might be re acting to tree or flower pollen from outside in garden?, so I always recommend you do your food elimination diet is the cooler months, Winter when allergens aren’t as high, as they are in Spring & Summer months…
Patch is at his worst every March just when Summer has finished also keep a diary & you will work out what months seem to be the worst for Bailey. Patches vet said she sees Patch every March when his IBD flares up really bad cause his immune system goes into over drive & Patches IBD flare up really bad also high potency Vitamin C is good, also probiotic to strengthen the immune system… Prednisone is a bandaid as soon as you stop giving the Prednisone the itchy skin all comes back…. have you tried Cytopoint injections yet? this is why it’s best to join the “Dog Allergies, Issues & other information support group” right up the top is their link…

[BaileysMom86]

Hello, I have an 8 year old Lhasa/Shih Tzu mix (our best guess since he was a stray) named Bailey that we adopted him from the humane society 6 years ago. Bailey has licked his paws and everything else (the floor, the couch, us) since the day I adopted him and I have gone to many vets over the years, tried all different kinds of foods, etc. He has been on grain free food since a few weeks after I adopted him. We tried many brands over the years, but Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream was what we fed him for years because he would actually eat it (he’s very picky) and didn’t seem to bother him. He started to like it less and less and I had to coax him to eat. So at the beginning of August last year, I went to the pet store and asked if they would recommend a food that Bailey would eat and one that had very good nutrition to help my other dog shed a few pounds (she has no licking issues, she was just a little overweight that exercise wasn’t helping). He recommended Acana Singles lamb and apple. I transitioned him over and things went well at first, Bailey loved the food and I hadn’t seen him excited for meal time like that before. Then, at the end of August/beginning of September, things changed. One day, pretty much overnight, he went from licking his paws to biting them to the point they bled. He attacked all 4 paws and his “armpits” to the point they lost all fur and were a mess. We put an e-collar on him to prevent further damage and went to our vet. He was given medication for a staph infection, along with ketoconazole pills. His wounds healed, slowly, but he still attacked his paws every time we took the e-collar off. He would also contort and get to his back paw every now and then even with the e-collar. The vet pushed for hypoallergenic food and Apoquel. I told her I was going to switch him back to Taste of the Wild instead and she prescribed him a course of Temaril P to help with the itching, which did not help one single bit. I tried a lot of shampoos, olive oil in his food, Sulfodene ointment, seasonal allergy chews, basically anything I could find over the counter to help him so we could finally take the e-collar off. Nothing worked. I bathed him in Zymox shampoo one day and he broke out in red bumps down his back and extending to his belly and legs. They looked like hives and formed greenish/tan crusts. So I went to a different vet that was recommended by my mother in law. That vet recommended a Cytopoint shot so we had it done and it did absolutely nothing for Bailey’s itching. They also gave powder to put in between his toes to stop the itching and a shampoo to help his skin. Nothing helped and he was still having to live in the e-collar. So they thought it might be sarcoptic mange and gave him a Frontline injection, which did not help. Then they recommended Apoquel. I had a lot of concerns about that medication, but desperate for some relief for Bailey, I gave it to him. It helped a tiny bit, but not enough to take him off the e-collar and not enough to make me want to continue. Also, a small mass he had on his gums where he had lost a tooth swelled up to the point that I was very concerned so we stopped the Apoquel. Thankfully, the mass shrank back down to the size it was before the Apoquel and today it is gone completely. Then they recommended allergy testing and that was very far out of my budget given the pretty hefty bill I had already accumulated at that point.

So, frustrated and desperate to find answers, I did a lot of research online to see if anyone else had experienced the issues Bailey was facing and learned about systemic yeast infection and correlation to food…which I have also recently (in the past 2 days) read many feel are unrelated. But anyways, in April this year, I put him a home cooked diet of ground beef (73/27), hard boiled eggs including the shell, Nupro Gold supplement, and an omega 3/omega 6 oil blend made by Ark Naturals. The changes he went through while on that diet were interesting to say the least. After about a week in, his white/cream fur turned dark pink in many places-down his legs, around his face, on his rear. This happened pretty much overnight and I was excited, thinking this was the yeast coming out (as I had previously researched). The fur color went back to normal about a week later. Then, his fur started falling out on its own (we had him in an e-collar still). It happened in patches. He didn’t get any ear infections since I started the diet though. In fact, his ears were cleaner than they had ever been since I adopted him, so that was a positive sign I held on to despite the loss of fur being a shock. Then, about 4 weeks in, he started getting a thick, green discharge from his eyes and some of the fur around his eyes fell out (but not all of it) and the skin was red. And all of the fur on his chest and neck fell out and the skin was red, hot and inflamed. He smelled terribly of Fritos and my house smelled terrible. All of this was very, very concerning but I told myself this was still the yeast and bathed him regularly with a holistic anti bacterial neem/tea tree shampoo and tried to keep him comfortable. A week later, he was still experiencing the fur loss/red skin and he also got a bad ear infection and his ear was swollen worse than I had ever seen it. The fur on the underside of his ear came off easily in chunks when I tried to clean his ears and put drops in. Then, the following day a benign cyst he had on his tail from the day I adopted him burst. I expressed as much of the black gunk as I could but was concerned about the bleeding and risk of infection (and everything else that was going on) so I took him to the vet again the next day. I told them about my systemic yeast theory, everything I was doing with his diet and everything he had experienced. They were concerned that he was possibly allergic to the eggs or beef I was feeding him and told me those were highly allergic foods. I was shocked and didn’t want to give up after being on the diet for less than 6 weeks, but I was very concerned about the state he was in. They gave him a steroid shot, more medication for his ear infection, a new chlorhexadine based shampoo and mousse, and a prescription for Purina Pro Plan Hydrolyzed food. They also sent me home with prednisone pills to use if the steroid shot didn’t help. I transitioned him to the new food. His ear infection cleared up with the meds. The steroid shot gave him some relief from itching for about 2 weeks, but it progressed back to him being very itchy. I called the vet and started him on the prednisone pills, but they didn’t help at all. Now, 5 weeks after I started him on the prescription food, he is absolutely miserable. He is still in an e-collar. He has been able to get it off a few times and he has chewed his paws bloody in a matter of seconds. I know he has not been on the food the recommended amount of time to truly evaluate it, but he is so itchy, rubs himself on anything he can, licks his e-collar constantly and will try to chew his paws the second he is done eating.

I can find a lot of information on yeast online, but very little on the symptoms dogs face during yeast die-off, only that it will usually get worse before it gets better. I know every dog is different, but I can’t find any personal accounts/experiences which is confusing. Then, I also recently read that many people say diet can’t create or eliminate yeast issues and that was a myth perpetuated by a vet on the internet. I’m so confused with information overload and saddened that my dog has had to live almost a year in an e-collar and is so miserable. Does anyone have feedback on the symptoms I described to determine if it was an effect of yeast die-off, or an allergic reaction to beef or eggs like the vet thought? I have been doing research on the internet this week trying to decide what move to make next in regards to getting my dog some relief from his itchiness and I’m trying to decide between keeping him on the hydrolyzed food, switching him to another food, going back to homemade, or doing something else. Thank you and I’m sorry this is so long!

[Susan]

Hi,
I’d start rotating your dog foods, so he is getting a variety of different ingredients, this strengthen their immune system & later on he can eat anything & no dog foods will be too rich (High in Protein) for him..
When you rotate between different brands, if he’s eating a brand that isn’t balanced properly then he’s not eating it long enough, to cause any health problems cause you’re rotating his foods..
* Look at Freeze Dried foods, Raw Coated Kibble, Air Dried Raw etc
I’d stay away from kibble or try not feed him just dry processed kibble…
introduce a variety of different foods…
Dogs have a short digestive tract made to digest a raw, low fiber diet, not these high fiber dry kibbles full of lentils, sweet potatoes are good, low in Gi…

Click on link below & watch Stella & Chewy video & their new Raw blended baked kibble & their Raw Freeze Dried Patties look good, you add water, scroll down bottom & look at all Stella & Chewy’s different diets.
https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/raw-blend-kibble
But I did notice the raw freeze dried coated kibbles have Chickpeas & Lentils, so this is when you rotate between different brands & the next food you feed doesn’t have any Lentils or Chickpeas. When the bag of dog food is nilly finished & there’s 1/4 of the bag left you start introducing another new brand of food with his old food & introduce, once his immune is strengthen from rotating different dog foods, you won’t need to slowly introduce new foods…..
You’ll see which brands he does really well on then use these brands in your rotation… I feed 1 brand for breakfast & lunch & something different for dinner…

*Have a look at “Canisource Grand CRU” Dehydrated Raw balls
you can add warm water wait 15 mins so the balls rehydrate or add some yogurt or kefir as a topper..
http://www.canisource.com/grand-cru/recettes-chiens.php

*Also Look at “CANIDAE” Grain Free PURE Ancestral. Raw Coated Dry Dog Food
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-grain-free-pure-ancestral-raw-coated-dry-red-meat-formula-with-lamb-goat-wild-boar/

There’s a few good freeze dried dog foods around..