[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I’ve done quite a bit of research and really want to do it but still feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Originally posted on Feeding Large Breed Puppies topic)

[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I really want to do it but feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Maybe I need a topic for feeding non-commercial raw to large breed puppies!) Also posting under Raw Feeding topic.

[Shawna]

Hi Dorenda,

Took a few tries but I was able to log on.. Thanks Patty for the email heads up :)..

Vets often suggest low protein for renal disease when it really isn’t necessary. There are studies even that show dogs that have protein lowered to drastically too early in the disease have increased mortality. There’s some fantastic information on the topic on nutritionist Mary Straus’ website (see quote below). My dog has had kidney disease since birth and has been on high protein raw her whole life (45 to 54%) — she’ll be eight years old the end of June 2014.

“Based on research done in the last ten years (see s a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?), that the only time it is necessary to feed a low protein diet is when your dog is uremic, which generally means BUN is over 80 mg/dL (equivalent to 28.6 mmol/L), creatinine is over 4.0 mg/dL (equivalent to 354 µmol/L), and the dog is showing symptoms such as vomiting, nausea,inappetence, ulcers and lethargy, which are caused by the build-up of nitrogen in the blood. Even then, feeding low protein will not extend life, but it will help the dog feel better. Subcutaneous fluids can also help at this time (and before).” http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html

If your pup is uremic then consider K/D canned with added toppers to entice eating. Toppers like lightly cooked egg whites or canned green tripe are good options. Both are low in phosphorus but higher in protein. To counter the extra protein you can give probiotics and a certain type of prebiotic to induce “nitrogen trapping”. Nitrogen trapping utilizes the bacteria in the colon to help clean BUN from the blood. I use Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotic (human product) and Fiber 35 Sprinkle Fiber (also human product). If symptoms are bad enough that there is a need to keep protein really low try adding high quality fats — organic butter or ghee, coconut oil etc.

I would avoid kibble at ALL COST!!! Kibble of any kind including K/D.

Vet Dr. Royal created a raw kidney disease diet for Darwins. It can be found on their website – link below. The food is REALLY high in protein so again not an option if your pup is uremic. Here’s some info. The actual diet is on the site as well. Your vet will have to contact them to confirm your pup is a good candidate for the diet. http://www.darwinspet.com/kidney-health/

Mary Straus, link above, has diet recommendations on her site – she does include kibbles but kibbles are dehydrating and can cause issues. The protein in kibbles is also poorer quality than any other form and due to this creates more BUN then other diets with the same amount and kind of protein. Nutritionist Lew Olson also has some recipes on her website http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/

Supplements that might be helpful — the one that I will NEVER run out of with my KD girl is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. Turmeric, food grade activated charcoal and burdock root are some to look at. I’d also recommend giving a digestive enzyme no matter what you feed. Mineral waters higher in calcium while being lower in sodium have demonstrated some benefit. They didn’t identify the brand in the research paper but I believe they may have used Evian. I’ve also read that feeding smaller meals multiple times per day is beneficial.

Hope something here is helpful!! Sure hope you can get your pup feeling better!!!

Shawna

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi ScottsMomma! Thanks for rescuing a dog, he will be thanking you to! Seeing as you mentioned raw I would say that would be a great way to go! Raw should really help with any allergies and you can really customize the meal plan, anything that doesnt seem to sit well with him, you can simply move on to another protein. My shih tzu loves raw, its amazing how he took to it, and I am sure your terrier will love it too. While you are researching how to balance, Hound Dog Mom is the best for explaining that!, you can start with a pre-made raw or do a pre-mix in which you add your own meat to it. There is a great section for pre-made raw dog food here to help you choose the best, but I think a lot of people use Primal and Stella & Chewys I would to if I could get it! I have used Nature`s Variety and think its ok, Dawson loves it and he does well on it, but I like making my own then you know exactly what you put into it. But when I get busy I still use it.
For pre-mixes I know of a few, Urban Wolf, Honest Kitchen The Preference, Grandma Lucys makes one, Sojos I believe makes one, and one I think its called Steves Real Food, or something like that. I havent used them as Dawson doesnt really do so well on high potatoes, and urban wolf is the only one I can find here.
Check out the raw dog food forum, lots and lots of great help and questions that have already been answered. Here is a link /forums/forum/raw-dog-food-forum/
Oh and for the skin and dandruff, You can use coconut oil and a fish oil, I like to use krill oil, Here is an article from the whole dog journal on dosage:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_9/features/Fish-Oil-Supplements-For-Dogs_20600-1.html
But now I five Dawson sardines instead of the krill oil, its cheaper and a whole food source he loves sardines!
And then coconut oil is half a teaspoon per ten pounds. I give Dawson his sardine requirements once weekly, so thursday, and then coconut oil every day, but you can do it however works best. I believe some people do every other day.
I hope this helps some! It is overwhelming when you first start, but its so much better for your dog than any kibble or canned food. I know more people with more knowledge than me will chime in!

[sharfie]

I have switched my 2 Golden Retrievers to a raw diet. I am rotating between protein sources and brands of frozen raw. I use Primal, Stella and Chewy’s, and Stewarts. I have used the calculators on the web sites as a guide for the amount of food to feed. However, I am not getting it right because both dogs have gained weight. Do calories count? I notice there can be a big difference in the calories per ounce between brand and proteins. Both dogs are within the normal range of activity. They are both currently getting a little less than a pound of food a day (about 14 ounces). So, I guess the question is, do I watch calories or amount?

[raylene5]

We will be getting a Miniature Schnauzer puppy next month and I had a question about how to incorporate heartier texture into a commercial raw diet. I’m pretty certain I will be feeding Primal Pronto nuggets…what can I do to ensure good dental health with a diet full of such soft food?

Do I give him raw meaty bones instead of one of the daily meals or do I just give a recreational bone once a week? What size and what kind for a puppy?

Thanks so much for the help! (Just to be clear, I’ve done a lot of research into the various raw diets and I will definitely not be preparing my own raw or feeding prey model 🙂 )

[crazy4cats]

In regards to your question about Northwest Naturals, it is a raw frozen food that comes in different forms. I use the beef nuggets as well as their fruit and veggie nuggets as toppers right now. They sell them at our local feed store along with Primal and Nature’s Variety frozen raw foods. Northwest is the cheapest of the three. I feel that these add fiber as well as antioxidants to their kibble. As I said before I’m not sure which part of my new equation is helping the most as I have switched several times. Again, I’m using Victor G/F kibble along with a little digestive enzymes, Gastriplex, and probiotic chews. I hope to gradually decrease the supplements, but right now I’m so ecstatic about their poops, (I know, weird, huh?) that I’m not going to change too much for a while.
Have you checked out dogaware dot com yet? They have so much information on that site about digestive disorders. I also think that they may have some homemade diet recipes for you as well.
Good luck!

[A.Sandy]

Hi,
That is a hard question because sodium amount is not always specified on food levels but I think you’re best bet would be to feed raw like primal, stella and chewy’s, Nature’s variety are excellent foods and raw is all natural no salt, and has excellent health benefits in general! good luck!!

-Ana S.
pet nutrition expert/advisor
pupcatnutrition.com
@pupcatfacts

[kms]

I made a vet appt for this coming wed – will have a fecal sent out. Also, I started Perfect Form last night. He ate it right up – no issue with taste. So far, he has had 3 stools – all 3 softer/runnier than normal. But he has only had 2 doses, so it’s prob too soon to tell. As far as pumpkin, I’ll stop that today.

I like everything I’ve read about Honest Kitchen products and would be willing to try. Also have been reading about Primal, Darwin and NV frozen and freeze-dried raw. My biggest fear is that things could get worse at a critical time in his development. I’d also have to face both my vet and breeder – who aren’t really in favor of my direction so far (in terms of going to a kibble rotation diet and also for heading toward raw down the road). But I’ll keep reading and taking baby steps. Another reason why I’m so thankful for this forum.

The NVI Rabbit uses chicken fat as a preservative and it’s 4th on the ingredient list. So NVI Rabbit is not 100% chicken-free, but it’s fat instead of meat. I don’t know if that changes anything. In other words, can I still rule out “chicken intolerance” – or could that small amount of chicken fat still cause a chicken intolerance? I really hope his system just needs more time to heal, as Pattyvaughn sugggested. It’s just that I’ve never had a dog who didn’t have worms or diarrrhea at some point – and it has always been remedied quickly. So I keep worrying that it’s something more serious.

I’ve read on threads where people go back to grain-inclusive and the stools get better. Why is that? I thought grains were not good for a dog. The reason I went grain-free is because I thought it would be healthier and the food would be less likely to trigger an allergy.

• This reply was modified 12 years ago by kms.

[PippaY]

Hi all,

My 18lb Welsh Terrier has a mild-moderate case of Protein Losing Enteropathy.

Our Vet specialist has recommended a Purina HA diet that’s made of “hydrolyzed protein”. Unfortunately I’m wary of anything made by Purina and hydrolyzed protein sounds horribly processed. So I’m looking for suggestions.

I’ve read that MCT oil (for humans) can help. Not sure how much to give her..

What about kibble and/or raw food? Brands and types would be appreciated if you’ve had success with any.

I switched her from Purina Pro Plan sensitive stomach (salmon) variety to Orijen’s Fish formula and “Primal”‘s raw lamb wet food. Her spirits are good. She’s eating well and she doesn’t seem to be losing weight around the middle..though I suspect that she might be losing muscle mass.

Other things to note:
She’s allergic to chicken and starts to itch just looking at it. Not sure about turkey or duck.

Thank you!!

[siscodepug]

Finally got all the blood results back. The Vet said he has low B12 and high folate which is indicative of an inflammatory bacterial over growth in the intestines. The Vet prescribed flagyl as an antibiotic and suggested trying a different food. The Vet accounts the bacterial over growth with a food allergy and since I’ve tried various kibbles and canned foods over the year, I’ve now decided to go raw. On Sunday, I picked up a bag of Primal raw venison and I also ordered a trial sample of Darwin’s raw duck food. The lady at the store explained that the transition should be done slowly so I’m feeding him a cube in the morning and one at night mixed with some rice and sweet potato. So far he seems to enjoy it but this morning he threw up (is this part of the adjustment?) but was very content to eat it up. I read that some dogs go through a detox period, so I hope it’s just that. I’ll keep you posted on his progress and if the raw food doesn’t work out I may have try home cooked meals. Thanks for replying.

PS – I have a Vet appointment today and I plan to ask about the giardia and coccidia test.

[RescueDaneMom]

I am partial to Primal and Stella & Chewy’s.

[kms]

Hi – I’m new here. I was using DFA to problem-solve and evaluate diets for my 5 mo male Weim (Augie) and ended up on this thread. WOW – what a great source of info! I’ve learned a lot and want to thank HDM and all the others who contributed. Here’s my story and my problem. Any advice would really be appreciated… especially would like input from HDM..…

We brought Augie home at 9 wks and he had soft/runny stool. Vet found roundworms and treated them. After the “all clear”, I thought his stool would get better – but it didn’t. Vet checked his stool again and found very high levels of “Clostridium” and a few other bacteria commonly found in dirt (Augie is a compulsive dirt/mud/rock eater – we’re working on it). Vet put him on Metronidozol and Pro-Pectalin for 20 days (2 rounds) – it did not resolve. Then he put him on SMZ (another antibiotic) and a bland diet for 16 days. During that time, his stool got bright yellow and was still runny all the time. He also stopped gaining weight and lost several lbs (was supposed to be 38-42 lbs, but dropped to 27 lbs). I asked about using a Probiotic and canned pumpkin, but vet didn’t want to introduce anything new to his GI tract. We tested his stool again – and finally all the bacteria levels were normal and no worms. BUT his stool was still soft/runny. He also had developed colitis from the constant diarrhea/soft stool. I started giving him 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal and slowly (over 12 days) I transitioned him from Eukanuba Puppy Growth (the breeders kibble) to Orijen Large Breed Puppy. He has now been on 100% Orijen for 11 days and I’m still giving him the pumpkin. His stool has gotten a little better – it’s formed about 75% of the time and soft about 25%. But the last couple days it has had a slick greasy coating on the outside. What does that mean?

Based on what I learned here, I have a new plan (I think). Much of this is new to me (have never used probiotics or enzymes and have never rotated foods). Also, I’m very interested in going raw (commercially made), but I don’t feel confident enough to pull the trigger yet – especially since his bowels have been so messed up for the last 3 months. What do you think of this plan:

1) Get him off Orijen – calcium is too high – did not know that till I saw HDM’s list.
2) Choose 3-4 high protein kibbles from HDM list and plan to rotate at the end of each bag.
3) Make the next food in the rotation a non-chicken, since the Euk and Orijen were both chicken based.
4) Choose a variety of toppers to be used as 20% of each meal. Use a different topper at each meal.
5) Start giving a probiotic and digestive enzymes with every meal
6) Continue 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal
7) Learn more about going raw – would like to start with commercially made and go from there. Maybe start by using a commercial raw (THK, Primal, Darwin’s) as the topper? or is that too hard for a dog to digest (mixing raw with non-raw)?

Do I give a Probiotic and Dig Enzymes at each meal indefinitely – or just during transitions from 1 food to the next?
Do I continue the pumpkin indefinitely?
Should I add fish oil and how much?
He’s up to 32.5 lbs, but still can see hips and ribs a little. What can I do to safely get some weight on him?

I really appreciate what I have learned here and look forward to advice. Thanks!

[RescueDaneMom]

The Cane Corso is considered a large breed dog because it will grow to 80lbs or larger. You should be feeding a food that is appropriate for a large breed puppy. They need to grow slow so they don’t develop bone problems. I would suggest you go to the Diet and Heath Issues forum and read through the Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition thread for more info. See here: /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

A member, Hound Dog Mom, took a lot of time and effort to create a list of appropriate foods for large breed puppy growth. I would look through the list and see what is available to you. You may want to choose a food that is very different to what you are currently feeding (different protein, different carbs, etc).
Here is the list: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1
It starts with grain-inclusive foods, then grain-free foods, and raw foods last.

I have a Great Dane (aka German Mastiff). He has done well on Annamaet, Earthborn Holistic, The Honest Kitchen (a dehydrated food, not kibble), Primal (raw), and Stella & Chewy’s (raw). You can’t go wrong if you pick anything from the list I provided. I would get small bags to see if he likes it first. You can also buy food online at places like chewy.com or petflow.com if you can’t find what you want locally.

I hope this is helpful Good luck!

[Sue’s Zoo]

I have a large breed puppy, Shiloh Shepherd. He’s 55 pounds at 4-1/2 months. With much help from information on this forum I’m feeding him half kibble (rotating between Wellness Core Puppy, Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch, Halo Spot’s Stew Surf N Turf) and half raw (Primal and OCRraw) as well as a probiotic and supplement. He seems to be doing very well. I’m currently feeding him 5.5 cups of food per day but I’m going to increase it, at least temporarily, as he still seems hungry all the time. I’m also feeding him three times a day at this point.

My question–up to what age is it recommended to feed 3 times a day? I wonder if feeding him fewer, larger meals if he would be better satisfied.

Also, does anyone know if there’s a way to search the forums on this site? There’s a search box on the initial forum page but nothing for individual topics that I can see. They’re packed with such great information but I’m sure many questions are repeated and information missed because it’s so hard to find out which issues have already been addressed.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Sue's Zoo.

[pacer1978]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. They are very helpful. I actually just purchased Primal Freeze Dried Turkey and Sardine Formula for Dogs, so I’m not sure “raw” that is. I should get that shipment in tomorrow and looking forward to how it goes. However, I do have two concerns, so maybe someone can help with that.

If I do incorporate some raw…how do I ensure I’m not overfeeding? I have one dog, Lucy (30-40 lbs) that is considered a little…shall we say, “chunky”. I’m trying to get her weight down a little since she isn’t very tall. She is a bit overweight, so I cut back on the coconut oil and kibble I give her as well. I am also getting Fromm weight management and will try that with her, but I’m concerned if I incorporate kibble in addition to a bit of raw, then I’m feeding her too much. Also, I know eating raw food is disgusting and unhealthy for us humans…but, I am still a bit concerned giving it to them. How do they not get sick from it? I understand the whole “related to wolves thing” and they can break it down where we can’t, but since they have been domesticated for so long, could raw be bad for them in any way? I’d hate to try this and be like one case in the article I read where one lady’s dog got severely sick from it and had major issues.

[RescueDaneMom]

I feed Honest Kitchen and Primal raw frozen grinds. I’m looking at trying Darwin’s next. I currently give my dog eggs, cottage cheese, kefir, canned sardines or pink salmon (preferably in water with no salt added), and Tripett canned tripe to help with variety.

[RescueDaneMom]

Shawna, thank you again for the info! I will give those Bravo meats a try when we run out of Thrive. There’s a really great independent pet store 30 min drive from me that carries THK, Bravo, Primal, and other great brands.

My parents are usually the ones feeding Dozer. I don’t think they’ll go for the raw egg. I don’t know if Dozer would eat raw egg. We’ve given him eggs cooked over easy and he wasn’t overly thrilled. Max, on the other hand, LOVES eggs.

I just bought six cans of Tripett the last time I was at the store. Max loves it. Dozer does too. We gave Dozer some of the green beef tripe with duck and salmon to entice him to eat his food and pills after a rough chemo treatment.

I just started to try different supplements for Max’s arthritis. In addition to his Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin, & ASU combo, he is getting an herbal supplement that has boswellia, cat’s claw, tart cherry, and white willow. I was going to try a bromelain/curcumin combo next.

Marie, I didn’t know there was a ‘concierge club.’ I’ve ordered it from Chewy and Petflow. Recently I’ve been getting it from a reseller who also carries the Primal frozen grinds. She emails me when she’s ready to order and I give her my order and I get it the next week. It’s been pretty convenient. Plus her prices are better than the independent pet store where I used to buy it from. No overhead I guess as she sells it out of her house.

Thanks again for all the feedback. Y’all are awesome!!! 🙂

[RescueDaneMom]

I think any incorporation of raw or fresh foods is a good thing. I’ve just started adding raw to my dog’s diet. I think it’d be easier for you if you stick with the 20% rule. You can add up to 20% (by volume I think) of additional fresh foods without throwing off the balance of nutrients in commercial kibble. That way you don’t have to worry about adding extra supplements and such to make the food complete and balanced. I think it has also been said that you can feed one meal of raw and one meal of kibble and still be ok with vitamins/minerals.

I add the following things to my dog’s food (not all at the same time): lightly cooked eggs (over easy), cottage cheese, kefir, canned sardines in water, and canned pink salmon. I will also add some canned tripe by Tripett.

I also add commercial raw, either Primal or Stella and Chewy’s. Lately I’ve been using the Primal grinds (muscle meat, organs, and bone) which are not complete and balanced. If you used more than 20% of this in a meal than you would need to balance it. You can get Primal from an independent pet store. See primalpetfoods.com for more info. Also a bonus, the bones in the grinds are ground up so small that there is no hazard of choking!

If you are interested in learning more about raw food there are two books that are always recommended: “Real food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Taylor & Becker and “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown. They have recipes for raw and cooked foods. I have made one batch of raw using Taylor & Becker’s recipe. I wasn’t too difficult but I had to go to two different stores to get what I needed. It is easier for me right now to use the Primal grinds instead of making my own raw food.

In my opinion, commercial raw food is a good compromise if you don’t want to go full raw. Yes it is still processed, but very minimally and much less than kibble. It is also convenient for those that are busy or simply don’t have or want to take the time to source raw meats and make their own raw food meals from scratch.

These are just my opinions. There are others here that have way more experience than I do such as HoundDogMom, Pattyvaughn, and pugmomsandy. They may have more feedback for you.

[clr]

My GSD, five years old, has had lifelong skin issues. Allergy shots for three years did not work. He has no fleas. He is currently on cyclosporine and ketoconazole which was effective at first but less and less. He’s back to biting bloody holes in himself. He eats raw and Primal and Origen, bolstered by lots of exercise and attention—alot of attention. He cannot be left alone or he bites. I’m now trying herbal calming tincture, nordic fish oil, and coconut oil—still biting. Here’s my question for the forum: I would like to try iodine but how much? Maybe he has a thyroid condition. He has a beautiful coat, weighs 106 and other than bite mutilation, perfectly healthy. Any input from the savvy, informed, and experienced will be appreciated.

[clr]

My GSD, five years old, has had lifelong skin issues. Allergy shots for three years did not work. He has no fleas. He is currently on cyclosporine and ketoconazole which was effective at first but less and less. He’s back to biting bloody holes in himself. He eats raw and Primal and Origen, bolstered by lots of exercise and attention—alot of attention. He cannot be left alone or he bites. I’m now trying herbal calming tincture, nordic fish oil, and coconut oil—still biting. Here’s my question for the forum: I would like to try iodine but how much? Maybe he has a thyroid condition. He has a beautiful coat, weighs 106 and other than bite mutilation, perfectly healthy. Any input from the savvy, informed, and experienced will be appreciated.

[pugmomsandy]

Nancy M,

Sorry to hear that, but I wouldn’t have started off by giving fatty marrow! Now he might need a bland diet for a week. How about starting with just a bite or two of regular raw food. Just a bite or two per day and increase from there. Instinct comes in bite sizes and you know Primal comes in the small 1 oz size. Half an ounce in the morning and the other half at night when he feels better. Be sure to check the guaranteed analysis on the different flavors and make sure there’s less fat than protein.

[Nancy M]

I have already written on different topics, but basically right now, what I really want to do is get started. I have read almost non-stop on this subject, ordered a couple books, but need to start a beginning program. Right now I have a 3 year old Sheltie who is on a Hills I/d diet (dry and wet) and will be getting my new Sheltie Pup next week who is being fed ProPlan Focus Puppy Chicken/rice, with Pedigree Wet chicken/beef. I want to get both of these dogs switched over to a much better diet, preferably raw or combination/mixture of that.
How can I get this started? Just by adding a little raw meat/organ meat/meaty bones a little at a time, with their current kibble? The puppy will be easier, I think, but the older one is on the Hills diet for a reason; must have as low fat as possible…..also has issues with sensitive stomach.

Please advise ASAP.

P.S. I ALREADY HAVE ABOUT A HALF BAG OF PRIMAL FROZEN NUGGETS (sardine and turkey formula) to finish using up so I thought I might just start back in mixing some in with the kibble for awhile. I had started this once, but then I had to go out of town for a bit, and decided to start back again later. It’s later, so I’m ready to begin again.

[PippaY]

My 8yr old welsh terrier got her blood work back:
Low red blood count, indicating a spleen issue(?)
Low albumin, indicating a liver issue and protein absorption issue ..maybe leaky gut?
There are 6 other blood abnormalities according to my vet…as I don’t have the blood report, yet.

Other issues:
Growing mammary tumors that don’t seem to bother her when touched (she was spayed prior to first heat cycle.) She has a few other masses that don’t seem to bother her – in the upper pit of her back right leg and the backside of her left leg.

She’s very itchy. Not sure if it’s a food allergy or possible cancer-related itchiness?

She’s still pretty spunky but is more listless and seems more depressed than her usual self.

DIET questions???
I fed her purina pro plan sensitive stomach “select” for years until late September (2013) when she stopped eating it (throughout late august/early September). She also got very bloated like she was filled with excess liquid. She had diarrhea for a few days, the vet put her on antibiotics, which seems to help to reduce the bloat, but her mammary tumors which the vet thought could have been swollen glands, continued to grow. I switched her to Acana rangelands (high protein) beef formula and have since eased her into Origin’s fish formula in the morning and the Origin fish formula + Primal raw food at night. She’s less hungry in the morning and will eat well at night. She’s starting to show signs of weight loss.

My vet seems to want to address the tumors first. And am going to call him tomorrow about nutritional options… Wondering what you all think – would probiotics be a good thing? If so what kind? Should I feed her more raw food to ramp up her protein intake? Could the liver issues be the cause of the tumors? I have a hard time picturing what sort of food could help the lumps/tumors, but have you all found such a thing?

There is a lot to address! – liver then tumors… Or try to tackle both at the same time? Nutrition for albumin and liver, biopsy of tumors?

[Nancy M]

Thanks for the replies…..

Specifically to InkedMarie:

Actually, I have tried the HK, Preference formula, which seemed like it had the lowest fat content, but depends on the meat/protein you use with it. I had added a tablespoon of some Primal nuggets that I was trying to use up (the turkey/sardine) and within about an hour or two, he was passing very loose stools, so I stopped and returned to just what he had been on. But yes, I like the HK concept and the simple preparation, compared to either raw or cooked. Thanks for your input. I love the SHELTIES…..have had at least one in my life since 1992.

[koa’smom]

Sippmanir, Thank you for the link, but I already have seen it and that is what prompted me to switch to Wellness Core Puppy, but now I’m faced with an issue that, according to the vet, is requiring me to feed a low calcium AND low protein food. I’m just not sure what to feed because most foods have protein content of 30% or more, even the all life stages food. Earthborn Meadow Feast states no less than 26% protein , but what does that really mean? To me it means that it it is likely higher than 26%.

Another thing I find confusing is the protein content in the raw foods. For example, under the food analyisis of Primal Raw frozen, it gives a dried protein content of 47% and a protein content of 15%. What do I go by? I don’t know how to interpret that.

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to get my dog kn the best food possible ASAP.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi Chuck,
I started the switch by adding The Honest Kitchen dehydrated food and Stella and Chewy’s or Primal freeze-dried patties to my dog’s kibble to change it up and keep him interested. I think it should be adequate nutrition as long as you’re adding the complete formulas. Just make sure you look at the calories and replace the appropriate amount of kibble with Primal. The dehydrated and freeze-dried foods tend to be a little more calorie dense. I’ve been feeding about 2/3 kibble and 1/3 Honest Kitchen, Primal, or Stella’s going on 2 years now and my dog loves it and is in the best shape he’s ever been in.

Good Luck!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by RescueDaneMom.

[Chuck]

I think for now I am going to mix something like primal patties and her Wellness CORE kibble and start to add in things like people suggested, chicken necks etc until I feel more comfortable making meals for her.

Does that sound like it would be an adequate diet / nutrients in the interim over just dry kibble?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by Chuck.

[neezerfan]

Hi Chuck, I’ve been where you are now and I agree it is overwhelming! You can take it step by step. I started by eliminating kibble altogether. The more I read about it, the more I felt it wasn’t a good food for my dog. I switched to 5 star canned foods, rotating brands and protein sources. I gave him a chicken neck or foot twice a week. Then I started rotating in commercially prepared raw starting with Primal and Nature’s Variety. Now his main food is Darwin’s but I still rotate in other brands and cans. I give him 2 homemade meals a week, he eats twice daily so that’s under the 20% rule.

I don’t feel confident at this point to self prepare all of his meals. My next move is to rotate in meals consisting of fresh meat with a premix added. He’s only 2 so we have time! Maybe I’ll get there eventually but for now I’m doing the best that I feel comfortable with.

Start your dog with a chicken neck and see how it goes. My dog will eat absolutely anything but it did take him a few minutes to get going on his first chicken neck. He just looked at it and circled it for a while before getting down to business. Now he eats all kinds of bones.

[Chuck]

Does anyone know of a site or book that has good recipes that are easy to follow? I see videos online and some sites like http://rawfed.com/links.html but nothing really concrete.. just I feed them chicken backs etc. Something with a little more detail I suppose.

And if I was going to do something like Primal patties and adding 10% meaty bone… how often would I be doing that a few times a week? daily? and Its ok to go to Sams club or whole foods and get chicken thighs and chicken backs and my pup eat the whole thing? Its going to be very weird to watch her eat bones.

Also If i were to continue feeding kibble (Wellness CORE or TOTW) along with patties at first would that be a problem? if so how would I ration that, treat the pattie like wet food?

Overall I want my dog to be as happy and healthy as possible, and again this morning she ate maybe 1/3rd of her food… she just wont eat dry kibble unless something is mixed in. So I really want to make this change as fast as possible

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by Chuck.

[pugmomsandy]

1. Is it better to get a premade mix of raw food online or buy meats from the supermarket or meat market? Or is it better to have a mix?

As a newbie to raw, I think it would be better for you to feed a food that is complete and balanced whether that is commercial frozen raw like Nature’s Variety, Primal, Bravo, Stella & Chewy’s, Darwins, and others, or dehydrated/freeze dried raw (but more expensive) food like Orijen freeze dried, Primal, Stella & Chewy’s. Meat by itself is not a good diet. For beginners, I would buy a commercial raw or use a Premix such as Urban Wolf, See Spot Live Longer, Grandma Lucy’s, The Honest Kitchen. You add meat and some oil and that’s usually it. No additional vitamins needed. You can make these in advanced in big batches and freeze in serving sizes or a couple days worth in one bag/container. You can feed up to 20% of an unbalanced food without having to worry about additional vits/minerals. For example, topping kibble with some meat or scrambled egg (but not more than 20% of the meal). As you become more comfortable with raw you can give homemade a try but be sure to use a recipe book.

2. Is ground or whole better? Your dog might like the texture of some chunks, versus ground. But in any case, raw meat has enzymes that also helps keep teeth clean. The ripping of the flesh and tendons from the bone cleans the teeth too. I have small dogs so I use a coarse ground. My dogs don’t have a preference for meat sizes. They eat it all.

3. I keep seeing people talking about feeding bones, including chicken bones… I was always told that chicken bones are dangerous? This is going to be the one that the hardest to get my wife on board with.

Raw bones are edible. The cooked bones are dry and splinter. Also there are recreational bones versus consumable bones. Most small animals can be consumed whole (chicken, rabbit, quail, turkey). But dense, weight bearing bones from larger animals are for gnawing only (marrow bones/leg bones). For heavy chewers, they can break teeth. For instance, my small dogs eat chicken legs, turkey and duck necks and feet and pork baby back ribs. They gnaw on beef/bison rib bones and marrow bones/femur for the enjoyment and it keeps their teeth clean. I feed these outside and don’t worry about cleanup when the weather is nice. You can train your dog to eat bones in the house on a towel, blanket or tarp. This winter, I’ll be feeding my small dogs in a crate or I could feed them on the bathroom tile and mop.

4. Do you need to add supplements to these meals? If so are they included in the premade mixes or am I adding them?

If you use a complete and balanced commercial premix, no additional supplements are necessary. Although there are a lot of people who give whole food supplements like supergreen foods (chlorella, kelp, barley grass, etc), bee pollen, and herbs, a complete vitamin E.

5. What is the best site for ordering?
I’ve heard Chewy.com is good. I’ve always used Petflow and amazon.

6. Does someone have a schedule or process I can literally follow to the letter?
Sorry, I am sure this has been answered over and over again but I would really appreciate the help. I am not too concerned about the cost as Wellness and Core are not cheap, however if I can pre-make these and feed her in the morning because we are often in a rush and it’s so hard to get her to eat kibble before we leave.

At my house, they eat raw if I have it thawed out. If not, they get other foods (kibble, canned, freeze dried). Darwins comes in convenient packaging and serving sizes and most commercial products come in patties or small bite sizes or chubs (which are the least convenient for me). You just have to remember to thaw! You can put 3 days worth out to thaw in the frig. I also use dehydrated foods (The Honest Kitchen, Addiction) where I just add water and let sit. I make some ahead of time and put it in the frig. But these are not raw.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by pugmomsandy.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[SandyandMila]

HDM- does that go for the Primal beef mix as well? I fed it today for one if the meals and gave Mila a RMB for the other meal.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi RescueDaneMom –

There’s no need to add additional muscle meat to Primal grinds – all have balanced C:P ratios except for the beef and buffalo which actually have more phosphorus than calcium and thus should be fed with some RMBs. You would want to add vitamin e, vitamin d (such as cod liver oil), omega 3′ and a whole food supplement. I would also recommend feeding some canned oysters once or twice a week (high in zinc and selenium) and some ground nuts or seeds (like sunflower seeds or pumpkin seeds) a few times a week (high in manganese). Yogurt or kefir is rich in probiotics and can make a good addition as well. Cod liver oil is rich in vitamin a but there’s really no need to worry about vitamin a levels – if the dog is getting liver (which it will be if its eating the grinds) and fruits/vegetables it will be getting plenty of vitamin a. Also keep in mind that the vitamin d requirements are 500 IU per kg (or approx. (227 IU per pound) on a dry matter basis – one lb. of raw food will provide around 0.3 lb. dry matter. Therefore, you would need around 68 IU per pound of raw food (minimum). I give my girls each a capsule of Carlson Cod Liver oil daily which has 250 IU vitamin d per capsule – they also get a some lower levels from beef liver, eggs, dairy. A glandular isn’t necessary, I think it can be beneficial though.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi All,

I have been lurking on DFA for a few months now. Originally I was trying to find the best dry food for my dog, then I started getting into dehydrated and freeze dried. Now I’m looking at frozen raw. For the past two months I have been doing 2/3 premium 5 star kibble with 1/3 frozen raw (complete formulas from Primal or Stella & Chewy’s). I didn’t know if my dog would go for it so that’s why I started this way. Now I want to move to full raw. I will admit to being lazy when it comes to this process. The easiest thing for me to get hold of right now is Primal grinds and complete formulas (Primal and S&C). A lady in the next town owner has become a retailer and sells it out of her house and adds very little markup.

I have a 7.5 year old Great Dane named Max that I got from a rescue. He is 155 pounds, is currently eating 1800-1900 calories per day, and is in perfect condition. I have fed him 3 meals per day since I got him because I could and it works for him. I want to do Primal grinds with additions for two of his meals and a complete formula for his third meal. I am most concerned with balancing his two meals of Primal grinds. From reading I have gathered that these grinds can be high in bone content as well as fat so it is important to add extra muscle meat (heart, boneless meats) and protein (eggs, cottage cheese, canned salmon, canned oysters, tripe?). I also plan on adding yogurt or kefir, sprouted seeds, fish oil, vitamin E, HDM’s superfood blend and veggie/fruit/herb puree, and 3 cloves of garlic 3x/week.

I have a few questions/ things I wanted to double check. He would need about 3200mg combined EPA/DHA, 300iu vitamin E, 200iu vitamin D/lb of food, 3 tsp of superfood blend daily, right? I couldn’t find what the appropriate amount of vitamin A was? If I use cod liver oil for the vitamin D, will that provide sufficient vitamin A? Also, would it be good to use a glandular supplement too? Lastly, assuming I have covered everything, a multivitamin/mineral isn’t needed correct?

Thank you in advance for your help. And special thanks to Hound Dog Mom for posting menus and such great, detailed information.

[SandyandMila]

My Mila (1 1/2 today) isn’t picky at all and I’ve had her on a lot of variety. Kibble [Canidae, Earthborn, Orijen, Acana, Brothers, Wellness, Fromm, Annamaet, (Chicken Soup, TOTW when I’ve had to)] and canned (Merrick, TOTW, Fromm, Canidae, Dave’s GF, Tripett, Wellness, ATG). Freeze dried and Dehyrated: Stella and Chewy’s, Primal, THK, Grandma Lucy. Premade raw: NV, Primal, Bravo. Raw organ/muscle meat, green tripe. And also RMBs:chicken back, turkey necks, pork necks. The only one I wouldn’t recommend is the Canidae Single Grain Protein Plus, although a 5 star food, because of the multiple protein sources and not grain free. (It was suggested at a pet store before I got Mila) You have received great advice above, stick to a single protein source and try to go grain free. Is it just when the dog has chicken protein that you see these issues? Maybe Sadie has a chicken food allergy? Try other protein sources beef, lamb, turkey, fish and also add a little canned pumpkin and plain yogurt (digestive enzyme and probiotics). And once you find a few that work rotate them, being on one type of food for too long can make it easier to form food allergies. Mila does have sensitive skin especially during spring-summer allergy season, I guess that might be a “pit issue”, so adding omega 3s and coconut oil to her food are a big help, and also bathing often is key. I’m using a medicated antifungal antiseptic shampoo right now because her skin was negatively effected after getting her spayed and vaccinated during allergy season, which is a big no-no. (The main reason I’ve switched to raw) But also like Earthbath or any good teatree oil shampoo. Try not to use a oatmeal based shampoo especially if Sadie’s skin has open sores, red, and irritated.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 3 months ago by SandyandMila.

[rileys mom]

I currently feed my Sheltie puppy (Riley) Earthborn Holistic Grain Free – Meadow Feast. I am very happy with the food but I have been reading a lot about the benefits of a raw diet. I can’t afford to have him on a completely raw diet, but I would like to add some raw food to his kibble. I have been looking at Primal and Nutrisca freeze dried raw food. Would it benefit Riley to have a little bit of raw added to his kibble?

If I do add raw how much of his kibble should I replace? I am currently feeding him 1 cup a day split into 3 meals. He is about 10lbs and 6 months.

Thanks

[pugmomsandy]

If there are a couple of foods she does good on (solid poop), you can rotate between them and switch out before she has a problem. Another option is to add some fiber like ground psyllium to her meals if you don’t want to do pumpkin. You might even supplement her food with some a few medallions of dehydrated raw (like Instinct, Primal, Stella & Chewys, Nutrisca). Sometimes the bone matter helps with formed stools.

[InkedMarie]

Top dog: your price depends on ow much you buy of wht protein. Chicken is the cheapest, beef most expensive (of the Zoologics). It also depends how much you buy at one time. You get a discount if you buy at least 40 pounds. If you buy 100 pounds every month, you get another discount.

For me, where I live, to buy the exact same amount of proteins from Primal, Stella & Chewys or Bravo was more by at least $15 and I had to drive to buy it.

If you buy Bravo Balance, it’s complete & balanced. If you buy the other bravo, you need to add to it, it tells you on the website what to add.

[topdog]

Thanks, from what I’ve found I agree. Of the 3 I have found locally Bravo seems to be the most economical but nearest store where its sold is 30 miles away. Am currently feeding the Nature’s Variety. NV and Primal are available at nearby store. Had a terrible experience with the NV duck which may have been NV or stores fault not sure which. Since it’s rated 4.5 versus Bravo 5 was wondering if the trip is worth it.

[topdog]

I was thinking of the brands available at local pet stores. Such as Bravo, Primal, Natures Variety, etc. Those are the ones I’m familiar with. Just started feeding raw about 2 months ago.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsure –

Pre-made raw food is very expensive and Primal is probably the most expensive brand of all. Pre-made raw really is financially impractical for large breed dogs and multi-dog households. If you want to feed raw I’d highly recommend researching homemade raw and learning to make your own. Homemade raw is higher quality than pre-made raw and it’s much cheaper. I’m currently spending under $200 per month to feed my two girls raw – they’re both around 70 lbs. and they each eat about 2 lbs. of meat/bone/organ + extras (eggs, kefir, veggies, supplements, etc.) per day. If you go to the raw food forum there’s a thread with recommended menus, you can check out what I feed my girls there. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a great book for beginners getting started on homemade raw.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[theBCnut]

Primal is an expensive way to go. Why don’t you look at getting some grinds from Hare Today or My Pet Carnivore and just giving about a half or quarter pound a day of raw mixed in with their kibble. Their grinds have good calcium:phosphorus ratios, so you don’t need to worry about that and as long as the grinds don’t make up a huge protion of their daily food, that is the only thing you need to worry about the balance on. That way they can have some of the benefits of raw without quite so much expense.

[Sue’s Zoo]

As much as I would love to feed all RAW, my puppy (and the next one we plan to get this fall) would end up costing about $800 a month on Primal when they’re only half grown!! That’s based on Primal’s feeding calculator on their webpage.

50lb puppy eating anything but beef requires a minimum of 14lbs/week (beef is 10lb/week). Best pricing is at PetFoodDirect averages approximately $40/6lb bag. So about $100/week! And that’s for one dog that’s only half grown.

Am I calculating something incorrectly??

Definitely will have to combine with kibble. But then I am totally confused about how much to feed! Please help!!

[SandyandMila]

So I purchased the Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier yesterday and fed it to Mila with her Bravo blend burger for dinner yesterday. My cat didn’t like it so much, she could tell right away something was up with her food. lol Anyways, the directions say to add it to dry or wet food. I predominantly feed raw (whether Primal complete formulas, or the Bravo turkey blend bugers, and grinds and RMBs when I have them) but do still feed dry and canned food if I have to about once or twice a week. Should I still add the Nature’s Logic to the dry and canned as well or would a green superfood supplement, as recommended above, be better?

[EHubbman]

*waves* another St. Louisan! I don’t know any other brands around here other than Primal and Stella’s, presonally. I know mypetcarnivore delivers around the STL area, and a lot of the raw feeds around here go through ross wells, too.

There’s a group on facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/metrostlouisrawfeeders/338119236322492/?notif_t=group_activity

(I hope that links shows up) and they might be a good resource for you!

[Sue’s Zoo]

I’m having trouble finding any raw brands locally except Primal and Stella and Chewy’s. I’m in St. Louis, MO. Does anyone know where I can find K9 Kraving or some of the other raw brands either locally or online? AlphaDogSpecialties.com carries K9 but can’t ship the frozen and they’re in Maryland. And is it recommended to rotate raw brands or is that more important with kibble?

[little pea]

Thanks… I saw some of the notes where people had posted unfavorable things, but too late I had ordered it. I looked into Nature’s variety and a second choice. Will go back and check it again. I liked Primal raw but at close to $400. minimum a month it was not realistic. I appreciate the heads up and will be following the forums as in addition I am truly in need of coat growth. Since yeast came back as her highest allergy and the testing center could not break out any different strains I am afraid of all that use brewer’s yeast etc. Inflight was recommended.
Thanks again I will be checking the Great Life closely and may forgo the switch.

[SandyandMila]

Yes the primal chicken mix is the only one I’ve tried so far and just got the Bravo burger blends but haven’t tried it yet. I feed commercial raw in the am and either RMBs or that mix in the pm and the kibble and canned on the weekend for dinner. I haven’t used the Preference yet, maybe return it for baby veggie puree or the whole food supplement? And again the whole food supplement can be given whether commercial and homemade raw? Should I be worried about the brewers yeast in the Nature’s Logic? Mila’s skin and coat has been damaged due to allergies, not sure if the brewers yeast will make it worse? That’s the reason why I’ve switched her to raw and adding krill, sardine, coconut oils and supplements to get food. Thanks for all the help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, as long as you are feeding grinds that contain meat/organ/bone in the proper proportions (such as the case with Primal and Bravo) and these grinds make up less than half of her diet (i.e. kibble for breakfast and grind for dinner) you would be fine just adding a whole food supplement (or even no supplement, but I believe whole food supplements are very beneficial). Are you able to get the Primal mixes? I used these when I first started feeding raw. I believe they’re 80% meat/organ/bone and 20% fruits, veggies and herbs. To use up the rest of your Preference I say just pick up some ground beef or turkey at the grocery store and use that following the instructions on the package.

[k9cancer]

I have a 14 week old Pyrenees pup. He weighs 45 lbs and 2 weeks ago we put him on Raw food Primal and Instinct.

His gas and diarrhea problems have disappeared but he is eating me out of house and home.

The package says to feed him 4% of his weight or 2.6 lbs daily of raw food.

I feed him 2 patties in the morning, 1 at lunch and 2 at night.

I use Primal and Bravo because it has a 75% protein 25% vegetable mix.

If I feed him 2 patties at night he acts like he is starving.
I was feeding him grain free dry mix with the recommended calcium levels mentioned on this forum however he would not sleep well at night and had the runs or soft poo almost everyday.

My other dog eats kibble and if my Pup, Harry gets to it he gobbles it up.

He is growing like a weed and has gained the proper weight.
Im just wondering if I should add a little kibble but then I will have the digestion problems.

Any advice would be great. I am wondering if he is just a dog that wil eat/over eat if given the chance. I was also wondering if adding sweet potato or something ese might be better. Maybe he likes the crunch….sigh I sure am driving myself crazy huh?

Any advice would be great.
D