[GSDsForever]

What do we know about coconut flour or coconut as an ingredient in dog foods?

Obviously, it’s a more recent ingredient in pet foods, so novel.

I realize some are wanting to avoid ALL more novel ingredients at this time, along with legumes (or legumes and potatoes) and exotic proteins, with the most sweeping definition of novel or exotic from Lisa Freeman DVM DACVN at Tufts, and stick with the most traditional carb & meat ingredients. (Other veterinary nutritionists do not include things like salmon/fish among “exotic” ingredients.)

But I just wonder what is known about coconut flour as used in dog food — and what we should know. My understanding had been that, for all the potential health benefits of coconut or as a hypoallergenic alternative carb, that it has very high fiber. I would have thought too high for use in dog food.

So how could it work in a formula as a primary ingredient? How can a formula keep a low fiber %? Does combining it with an almost pure starch balance it out enough? Is there a refined version?

• This topic was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by GSDsForever.

[Patricia A]

Me too Nadia. Was wondering why the weight gain in my one since giving the turkey. Also they go nuts when I give that flavor so it should have clued me in. lol .. But I also read from research many times it’s the carbs in food that causes weight gain and not the fat. That the fat is good for dogs as long as your dog isn’t prone to pancreatitis from TOO much every day. So with that understanding as a whole the Stella’s have low carbs as well as Primal I rotate with.
Guess I’ll rotate with the rabbit chicken and venison blend and break in half the turkey and see what happens with the weight after cutting back.. My suspicion about the Tantalizing Turkey started when I looked at the back of the Stella’s bag and it said give 2 for the lbs when the other proteins/flavors i use with the 5* says 2 1/2 for same lbs. I always give less then the feeding guide anyway since they also get a little kibble with it when not feeding home cooked when appropriate. But at least it tells me that the flavor/protein is higher in calories.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by Patricia A.

[AlexT11]

There is something missing here…I do believe these chews are not rawhide but there is a process the company is being very deceptive in not disclosing it .

What I see interesting is the way they are hidding the real process of making these chews, I mean…just as @aimee has described about the connection between the guaranteed analysis and ingredients….they just do not match.

It can’t be a rice based product. Rice is a high carb ingredient and they are reporting carb contents as only 5% (even being second on the list). Another hint…there is no way that you could obtain a fiber-like sheet by compressing brown rice and gelatin (not rawhide enzyme-treated), besides brown rice flour gives a dark gray tone.

There is a product at Sam’s, “Hide Free Chews”:
https://www.samsclub.com/p/chicken-chews-10-ct-rawhide-free/prod23390967

The pieces look very much as “No-Hide” by Earth Animal, at much lower cost, the ingredient line up is similar (all natural ingredients), my dog LOVES them although they do not last quite long as rawhide but they last decent amount of time and there is no doubt the ingredients deck is congruent with the guaranteed analysis for the same base ingredients.

[Susan]

Hi Genevieve,

Oh poor Ollie, video was hard to watch,
I called this the Gulps.
yes this is BAD acid reflux coming up into the throat/mouth, please give either liquid Mylanta or Slippery Elm – 4mls so it soothes Ollies esophagus & pushes the acid down, or I give a dry biscuit “Jatz” wafer biscuit.
I wonder if Ollie has LES??
Have you done Endoscope & Biopsies??
My Patch suffers with IBD – Helicobacter, LES, Environment Allergies, Food Sensitivities.

Same as you we tried most things…
Vet Diets – didn’t help cause of the high Omega Oils, Beet Pulp & Pre-biotics Patches acid reflux seem to get worse.
Carafate made him feel sick, he’d gulped grass after taken Carafate.
Zantac, – taken 18months it worked then it didn’t work like it wasn’t strong enough.
Slippery Elm Slurry 4ml works & helps soothe the esophagus & settle stomach..
Buy Slippery Elm powder, put 1/2 a teaspoon in a cup, boil jug & slowly add boiling water & quickly stir till you have a slurry, not too thick or too thin so you can pull up 4ml into a syringe, make sure its not hot when you give to Ollie, it cools quickly.
Omeprazole-20ml for 1 yr the Omeprazole helped then it didn’t some days.
Patch went down hill November 2017 after we moved, I nilly put him to sleep but before I put him to sleep I woke up 1 morning & thought i’ll do another Endoscope & Biopsies to see if he has stomach cancer?? His other vet quickly admitted him for the next day 10am, he had gingivitis back molars from the acid coming up esophagus into his mouth he eats kibble 🙁 wet foods makes his LES worse, he gulps up wet digest food, wwhere dry kibble stays down better & when it digest it moves onto his small bowel instead of being burped back up, he doesn’t have Megaesophagus.
His Endoscope showed he had red inflamed esophagus & red wind pipe this is what made him really ill & not his happy go lucky self, when I heard his vet say he has red inflamed throat & wind pipe, it broke my heart, he was suffering like this & Staffys are bad for telling you they are in pain, they hold a lot of pain my vet said 🙁
I thought the Omeprazole was reducing his Hydrochloric acid?? his Helicobacter had come back mildly not bad like it was 6 yrs before when I had rescued him, the vet said the Omeprazole must of kept it at bay, then the vet said he thinks his Lower Esophageal Sphincter Flap in between his stomach & esophagus isn’t closing properly & the acid is washing back up into mouth causing Gulps, red esophagus etc
I suffer with GORDS, LES & Barrets Esophagus & I take Pantoprazole twice a day, my Gastro Specialist said Pantoprazole seem to work best for people who suffer with LES & GORDS so I told Patches vet Simon can we PLEASE try Pantoprazole instead of the Omeprazole, Patch has 2 vets his easy going lady vet who has a more Holistic approach & then Patch has Simon who does Patches Endoscopes, Biopsies & removes Patches lumps, he’s very very good vet educated all over the world but he agrues with you & says all PPI – acid blockers are ALL the same BUT they’re NOT I agreed back lol we argued for 1 hour, Omeprazole didn’t agree with me, neither did Parriot & Pantoprazole worked straight away so all PPI must work in different ways, even my Gastro specialist said people all react different with PPI – acid blockers but Simon said its just a way the big drug companies make more money.. Oh well I have proven him wrong cause
my Patch started to get better & hasn’t vomited in 20 months since taking Pantoprazole, he started on 20mg taken in morning, morning is best to take a PPI my Gastro special told me, a PPI doesn’t have to be before breakfast but it is better, so as soon as Patch wakes up around 6.30am I give his 20mg-Pantoprazole with a syringe with water so the tablet goes down his esophagus then he eats 10-15mins later.
End of Summer every March cause of Patches Allergies all thru Spring & Summer Patches Immune System is over worked & then it crashes & he has a IBD Flare EVERY March (I live Australia) causing bad acid reflux again so I had to increase his Pantoprazole last Summer so now he has 20mg-Pantoprazole every 12 hours

He’s a new dog, no more vomiting, no waking up early hours of morning wanting to gulp grass, no more Helicobacter..
I feed 5 smaller meals, Kibble 7am-1/2 a cup kibble, 9am-1/2 a cup kibble, 5pm-1/2 a cup & 7pm-1/3 a cup kibble & at 12pm lunch he gets wet food but not much 1/3 of a can at the moment he loves his Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat wet can food but I get Paper towel & soak up all the oils when I get out the loaf from the can, as omega oils can cause acid reflux & Dr Judy Morgans old dog who has just passed age 18 yrs old kept having Pancreatitis Flare & it was the fish oils she was adding to his diet..

You will find Vets cant diagnose & wont be able to really help when it comes to the Stomach problems, my vet tells me Susan you know there’s no tests or blood test to know what’s happening with Patches stomach unless you have Endoscope & Biopsies, Biopsies will give us answers to what’s wrong with stomach/small bowel, this is probably way no vets have any answer & have to guess what’s happening with Ollie 🙁
Have you ever done the Triple Therapy meds?
Metronidazole, Amoxicillin every 12 hours with a meal & a PPI once a day in morning taken for 3 weeks.
Keep diet low in fiber, low in carbs, low/med fat & med protein & feed small meals & ask vet about LES a lot of aging dogs suffer with LES but we think Patch had LES when I rescued him age 4yrs old..

[steve johnson]

I feed my dog a raw frozen diet such as Stella and Chewys or Instinct. Raw diets can help dogs lose weight because they are lower in carbs. There is a lot less poop to pickup too!

[Michelle S]

Yes – we love Ketona dog food & it is excellent. We have used it for our two Great Pyrenees adult dogs. My female does not have allergies to any of the chicken products in only this brand & we love the Salmon too. Any correspondence with the owner Daniel Shuloff is answered with great factual information and the staff also will answer any questions. The amount of research on their site & in the Taurine debate is excellent. Our dogs are healthier & doing great ! Here is a formula for determining carbs which are not healthy for dogs: How to Calculate Carbs in Dog Food
Some pet owners seek a lower percentage of carbs in comparison to other foods whereas others want a grain-free diet. Manufacturers are not required to print the carbohydrate percentage in their food. You can estimate by taking the protein, fats, and moisture contents and subtracting them from 100 percent. Then, add about 8 percent ash. For example, a food has 50 percent protein, 10 percent fat, and 10 percent water. Subtract 70 percent from 100 percent, then subtract 8 percent, which leaves 22 percent carbohydrates. Great food!

[Daniel S]

Hi there, I’m the founder of KetoNatural Pet Foods.

On the issue of ingredient commonality, chicken is BY FAR the most prevalent ingredient in our chicken recipe (and salmon is by far the most prevalent ingredient in our salmon recipe). In both cases, the meat products make up 75% or more of the formula. And, unlike most pet food companies (including at least one of the two you’ve mentioned here) when I make that claim I’m making it on a post-dehydration basis. We add our chicken to our formula AFTER it has been dehydrated, so the percentage of the formula that is chicken is not skewed by the presence of water. Even after dehydration, it’s still the case that more than 75% of our formula is chicken. Your statement that chicken is the “fifth of sixth ingredient” is completely false, I assure you. It’s BY FAR the most common ingredient and I’m not aware of another kibble on the planet that has a higher ratio of animal products to starch than Ketona (and I’ve actually written a book about this subject, so I’m quite familiar with the marketplace!).

(If you want to see this “dehydration issue” for yourself, go check out the website for Orijen by Champion Pet Foods. The company claims that most of its Orijen formulas are at least 90% meat products. But the formulas are also typically at least 25% carbohydrate. Animal products don’t contain carbohydrates. So something doesn’t add up. That “something” is the presence of water in the animal ingredients.)

On this issue of price, it is indeed the case that our food is more expensive than many (but not all) kibbles. But it’s nutritional composition is different too. We have by far the lowest carbohydrate content of any dry pet food on the market today. Carb-heavy ingredients (corn, rice, potatoes, etc.) are the cheapest ingredients. And that’s why most kibbles are insanely cheap (far cheaper than the trashiest fast food on a per-calorie basis). Because our formulas feature more animal-based ingredients and fewer carb-heavy ingredients, they’re more expensive to produce. So we have to charge a bit more. But I’ll note that (1) our prices are only about 20-25% of nutritionally-similar raw diets (the only other types of pet food products that have a nutritional content remotely similar to ours) and (2) on a quantitative basis, switching a 50-pound dog from Acana to Ketona is only likely to add $0.50 to $1.00 per day to your dog food budget. Hardly a massive change.

Regards,

Daniel Schulof
KetoNatural Pet Foods

[GSDsForever]

Hi Jordan.

Some additional options for grain inclusive, with NO chicken formulas include these brands:

Dr. Gary’s Best Breed, First Mate, Eagle Pack’s Holistic Select Line (see e.g. Adult Radiant Sardine, Anchovy, & Salmon), Sport Dog (e.g. Buffalo formulas), Inception, Purina Pro Plan (e.g. Salmon & Rice Sensitive Stomach & Skin), Petcurean Go!, Farmina, Annamaet, Canine Caviar, Verus, Instinct by Nature’s Variety Be Natural Salmon (includes peas #7), Nutrisource (e.g. Trout & Rice — not the large breed one), and (soon) Open Farm’s new grain inclusive line. One of the moderators here, PugMom Sandy, noted a sardine formula from Nature’s Logic also.

Purina, Hills, & Royal Canin have veterinary therapeutic formulas/prescription diets that exclude chicken as well.

The above is not an exhaustive list or a recommendation for any listed. And those are just U.S. available foods.

Your choices will depend upon what you are looking for preferentially in a formula and brand, things that you personally believe to be indicative of “high quality.”

From experience, I have known many dogs to do well on the Fromm Whitefish grain inclusive formula recommended by another poster above, especially dogs with sensitive digestive systems and needs for low residue, highly digestible. It has a nice mix of whole grains, sweet potatoes, and bland, highly digestible simple carbs.

I am currently feeding Annamaet’s Option formula (purple bag: Salmon based, w/lamb) and am very pleased with the company and the formula. To it, I daily add canned wild Alaskan salmon with bone, to bring the protein up from ~26-27% protein (dry matter, actual typical) to 30%+ (adjusted for our needs). Last month I added canned sardines.

Good luck! If you are interested in one of the above formulas/brands, I’d be happy to give you my thoughts on it.

[Patricia A]

Aimee I agree that I didn’t get very technical with the questions for the vet. I was just trying to point out that some owners think the brands sold at the vets MUST be superior in some way since of course vets know what food is the best. I thought this also at one time. And MOST of the time if asked what should I feed my “healthy” dog your vet will I believe 9 times out of 10 suggest the ones in their practice. Why is that when again 9 times out of 10 the vet cannot even tell you the ingredients listed on the labels they sell?
Honestly, so many of these companies are so gimmicky and people fall for it. Like the dog food manufactorers who sell specific kibble just for different breeds. Like a Chihuahua on the bag and then for your Shitzu, poodle, yorkie etc. are specifically made for just for that breed.Really they want us to believe that a diet for a Yorkie would be different then a Chihuahua. People are gullible.
Here are the four ingredient labels I asked the vets to rank. Can you guess which one is the prescription diet?
Also regarding prescription diets for dogs interesting article below.
Food #1
dog food ingredient
Food #2
Prescription Diet Dog Food
Food #3
prescription diet dog food 3
Food #4
Prescription Diet Dog Food
The Answer: Prescription Diets Revealed
Now, if there’s one thing I can say about my veterinary friends, it’s that they don’t follow direction very well! Only one of the vets actually ranked all of the foods as asked. But the rest had some very interesting things to say about the prescription diet.

So to start, here are the rankings in order from best to worst from Dr Marty Goldstein, author of The Nature of Animal Healing:

Food #2 ranked first because it contains all whole foods

Food #4 ranked second because it contains meal but otherwise contains whole foods

Food #1 ranked third, thanks to the by-product rice, by-product meal and overall low quality ingredients

Food #3 ranked last, based on the use of corn for its first ingredient, followed by by-product meal.

And if you haven’t guessed already, the prescription diet in that list is Food #3.

Want to hear what some of the other vets had to say about the prescription diet?

Dr Jodie Gruenstern: This food was the lowest quality in the list. It contains GMO corn, soy (lots of it!), which is a common allergen, synthetic vitamins/minerals, shavings (if you didn’t know, the ingredient cellulose is literally sawdust), natural flavors, which usually mean MSG.

Dr Jean Dodds: Poor quality food: the first ingredients are corn, which is often GMO, and chicken by-product meal rather than whole chicken. Flax and soy are phytoestrogens.

Dr Judy Morgan: This is a Pet Store Food. Corn is the first ingredient, no muscle meat used, only by-product meal, synthetic vitamin/mineral supplement, corn and soybean are GMO, waste fillers are abundant. Overpriced in my opinion, considering the poor quality, cheap ingredients used).

Dr Dee Blanco: This one starts with corn to increase inflammation, then adds lighter fluid to it with soybean products and poor quality protein. Then it tries to make up for the poor quality foundational ingredients by adding synthetic supplements of the poorest quality, such as calcium carbonate, folic acid, ‘generic Vit E supplement’, etc. Looks like they added l-tryptophan to calm the nervous system down after putting the body into overdrive inflammation. Natural flavors?? Could be an entire cadre of carcinogens, allergens and toxins. Argh!

Dr Peter Dobias: The worst recipe – first ingredient is corn, then by-product, then flavors, wood chips. It may not be supermarket food but a veterinary diet right?!

So, as you can see, our vets didn’t exactly think the ingredients in the prescription diet were high quality. In fact, they thought many of them would be harmful.

So why exactly do we trust our vets to prescribe diets when this is the best they can offer?

And, more importantly, why are vets gullible enough to think these foods can do anything to change chronic health issues in dogs, such as allergies, kidney disease, or in the case of this particular food, joint disease?

If we really want to look at the quality of these diets, I think the first place to start is who’s making them?

The Apple Doesn’t Fall Far From The Tree
The major players in the prescription diet category are the major players in the regular pet food category:

Hill’s Science Diet
Purina
Royal Canin
Iams
These companies are hardly renowned for quality ingredients. In fact, most veterinary diets are manufactured by companies that predominantly manufacture lower quality grocery store foods. The same company that makes lower quality foods like Alpo and Beneful is also making prescription diets. How much better do you think the veterinary food would be?

Let’s compare two Hill’s foods: a regular food (Natural Chicken & Brown Rice Recipe Adult) and a prescription food (j/d Canine Joint Care).

The regular pet store brand:

Hills Ideal Balance
And the prescription food:

Hills JD
Now, a 30lb bag of the regular food is $47.99 at Petsmart. The prescription diet dog food can also be purchased at Petsmart for $84.95 for a 27.5lb bag. It’s twice as expensive!

Now, you might be thinking this is because the prescription diet was formulated and tested with a specific condition in mind.

This is completely false.

While an over-the-counter food with a health claim (such as controls weight) is subject to FDA regulations and enforcement, the FDA practices “enforcement discretion” when it comes to veterinary diets.

Put another way, this means the FDA has not reviewed or verified the health claims on any veterinary diet.

Did you catch that? There are very few ingredients in veterinary diets that aren’t also in other regular diets. In the example above, I’d say the pet store brand is a better quality food, wouldn’t you? The prescription diet contains by-product meal (which comes straight from the rendering plant), lots of soybean and corn products (a cheap replacement for animal protein) while the regular food contains more expensive, higher quality ingredients.

Apart from fish oil, what food ingredients exactly would help dogs with joint pain? As Dr Dee Blanco stated, this food would actually cause inflammation.

And fish oil is a terrible addition to pet foods. It’s much too fragile to be added to processed foods and as soon as the bag is opened, it will oxidate and cause inflammation in your dog.

Ironic isn’t it, when the food is supposed to be treating inflammation in the first place?

[Related: We’ve got 5 reasons you should dump fish oil. Click here.]

Consider The Source
Those two diets are made in the exact same plant. The manufacturer uses the same suppliers.

Doesn’t it stand to reason that the quality of ingredients will be the same?

I challenge the pet food industry to prove that chicken by-product meal, soybeans, brewers rice and powdered cellulose have been extensively researched and proven better than the higher quality foods used in most regular pet foods.

So if your vet ever says your dog needs to be eating a prescription diet, ask him to review the ingredient list. Then ask him for hard evidence that the foods in the prescription diet are any better than those in regular diets.

I think we know what the answer will be.

And if you’re one of the smart 60%, then I know you already know the answer!

It’s nothing but Bull$hit.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Let’s say you made an appointment with your vet strictly for a consultation on diet for your dog. Then ask that first off I would like you to tell me what are the necessary vitamins/minerals and percentage that needs to be in the food to keep my dog healthy. Also if I had a large breed puppy how would those percentages change if at all. How many more calories does he need when feeding then a small breed puppy? What should I look for as the first through 5th ingredient on the dog food label that should point me to the best food? What should I be on the alert for that should NOT be on their ingredient label that would suggest a low quality food? You know what the vet would say to these questions? You think any vet not trained strictly in animal nutrition would know these answers. I think not.
Take it a step further and bring in a dog food he suggests such as royal Canon, science diet etc and cut out the name and show him only the ingredient label.Also take in let’s say freeze dried also and some other brands with only the label.

So Royal Canin adult dog foods first few ingredients are:
Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, oat groats, wheat, corn gluten meal, chicken fat, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, calcium carbonate, vegetable oil, potassium chloride, salt, etc.

And here’s Science Diet recipe (website states vet recommended)
Chicken, whole grain wheat, cracked pearled barley, whole grain sorghum, whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, chicken meal, pork fat, chicken liver flavor, dried beet pulp, soybean oil,

Now I’m not trying to plug a dog food. I get my starting point from Dr. Mike and go from there. But let’s take Bixbi Rawbble whose first ingredients are this: Salmon, whitefish, chicken and ground bone, pumpkin etc.

Grain inclusive Stellas ingrediens: Chicken, chicken meal pearled barley,oatmeal, chicken fat, brown rice etc.

Primal ingredients: Turkey, turkey necks, whole sardines, turkey hearts or turkey gizzards, turkey livers, organic collard greens, organic squash, organic cranberries, organic blueberries, organic pumpkin seeds, clery, sunflower seeds etc.

So does anyone think he would know which one was Royal Canin just by looking at the label. Would he pick Royal Canin or Science Diet as being what he feels the highest quality after seeing the first few ingredients of the others? Unless I’m WAY off on what I understand to be ingredients to look for on a dog food label for the best nutrition for my dogs, then I would HOPE his pick would be the others over Royal Canin and Science diet which vets push in their practice.
What I’m attempting to put across here is that the MAJORITY of vets who sell Prescription diets as in Science Diet, Royal Canin etc at their practices and suggest that food have no idea what is even in the ingredients and wouldn’t recognize which brand are those and which are others by just looking at the ingredients. They have salesmen from these companies and correct me if I’m wrong please and get kickback each time a bag is sold.

[Patricia A]

Let’s say you made an appointment with your vet strictly for a consultation on diet for your dog. Then ask that first off I would like you to tell me what are the necessary vitamins/minerals and percentage that needs to be in the food to keep my dog healthy. Also if I had a large breed puppy how would those percentages change if at all. How many more calories does he need when feeding then a small breed puppy? What should I look for as the first through 5th ingredient on the dog food label that should point me to the best food? What should I be on the alert for that should NOT be on their ingredient label that would suggest a low quality food? You know what the vet would say to these questions? You think any vet not trained strictly in animal nutrition would know these answers. I think not.
Take it a step further and bring in a dog food he suggests such as royal Canon, science diet etc and cut out the name and show him only the ingredient label.Also take in let’s say freeze dried also and some other brands with only the label.

So Royal Canin adult dog foods first few ingredients are:
Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, oat groats, wheat, corn gluten meal, chicken fat, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, calcium carbonate, vegetable oil, potassium chloride, salt, etc.

And here’s Science Diet recipe (website states vet recommended)
Chicken, whole grain wheat, cracked pearled barley, whole grain sorghum, whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, chicken meal, pork fat, chicken liver flavor, dried beet pulp, soybean oil,

Now I’m not trying to plug a dog food. I get my starting point from Dr. Mike and go from there. But let’s take Bixbi Rawbble whose first ingredients are this: Salmon, whitefish, chicken and ground bone, pumpkin etc.

Grain inclusive Stellas ingrediens: Chicken, chicken meal pearled barley,oatmeal, chicken fat, brown rice etc.

Primal ingredients: Turkey, turkey necks, whole sardines, turkey hearts or turkey gizzards, turkey livers, organic collard greens, organic squash, organic cranberries, organic blueberries, organic pumpkin seeds, clery, sunflower seeds etc.

So does anyone think he would know which one was Royal Canin just by looking at the label. Would he pick Royal Canin or Science Diet as being what he feels the highest quality after seeing the first few ingredients of the others? Unless I’m WAY off on what I understand to be ingredients to look for on a dog food label for the best nutrition for my dogs, then I would HOPE his pick would be the others over Royal Canin and Science diet which vets push in their practice.
What I’m attempting to put across here is that the MAJORITY of vets who sell Prescription diets as in Science Diet, Royal Canin etc at their practices and suggest that food have no idea what is even in the ingredients and wouldn’t recognize which brand are those and which are others by just looking at the ingredients. They have salesmen from these companies and correct me if I’m wrong please and get kickback each time a bag is sold.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Mary Lynn are you sure that the chicken is the problem? When you eliminate all chicken for a week or more does he stomp the paw chewing? I know it sounds like a simple solution but sometimes even chemicals such as rug cleaners could cause irritation and allergies. Don’t know if you’re interested in grain inclusive. Really can’t find any gran free that doesn’t include some form of peas or legumes. Below is Stella and Chewy’s grain inclusive with just beef and lamb meal .
Ingredients
Beef, lamb meal, pearled barley, oatmeal, brown rice, pork meal, beef fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), natural vegetable flavor, beef liver, millet, quinoa, flaxseed, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), inulin (from chicory root), pumpkin, blueberries, taurine, tocopherols (preservative), thyme, sage, dried kelp, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, vitamin E supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, rosemary extract.
#1 ingredient grass-fed beef
Wholesome grains including brown rice, pearled barley, oatmeal, quinoa and millet
Pea-free, lentil-free, potato-free & poultry-free
Made in the USA with no ingredients from China
Rich in Omegas for healthy skin & coat
Leading levels of glucosamine & chondroitin to help maintain hip & joint function
High quality proteins for lean muscle mass
No corn, wheat or soy protein
No by-product meal
Guaranteed taurine levels
Complete & balanced for all life stages except large breed puppies

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[Stefan A]

My dog is only 2 years old and I heard in the case of acid relux, no grains are allowed and only low fat food. I contacted my vet and he told me to try Antacid tablets – Sodium Bicarbonate by Rugby. He says I can put half of the tablet into the banana piece and try to give him. Any probiotics feedback?

https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/digestive/c_multi_gastroesophageal_reflux essaydune.com https://www.thedogbakery.com/blogs/news/acid-reflux-in-dogs-diet-dos-and-donts

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Stefan A. Reason: typos

[Lee T]

I switched her to high protein-34%, low carb dog food. What else can I do for her. A benign lipoma when removed turned out not to be.😡
Thank you,
Lee T – Dallas

[joanne l]

I am no expert but I think with pancreatitis it has to be low in fat and with diabetes I think low in carbs. Did the Vet recommend a food for your dog? He should have told you something about the diet. If not call him/her and ask for diet information.

[Dee D]

There has been so much concentration of the Fat content, but have you looked to see how much protein content there is and how much “carbs” are in the food your feeding. Excess carbs like potatoes, rice, barley, oats will put on weight. Low fat foods general increase carbs. Like someone said some fats are essential it’s the egg yolks and the white fats, even liver (a small amount is good for them, but I give chic livers) is high in fat but other fats like fish fats are quality fats. Having proteins in their diet is extremely important to as a canine. I read too that grams of fat for every 1,000 calories is a better gage of how much fat in their diet their getting.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Dee D.

[GSDsForever]

Hi Christine. Though I’ve never fed TOTW, I’m also in the same boat looking for a new food, in light of the latest safety information re DCM.

I personally would not feed another GF formula, from another implicated company on the list (Earthborn) — even though this one does not appear to contain legumes or potatoes. I just think it is an unnecessary risk. And the carb base (tapioca/pumpkin) is still relatively more novel, less traditional and proven safe.

Re joanne’s recommendation, I can tell you that I also am considering the Holistic Select fish formula (Anchovy, Sardine, & Salmon) — though in my case, the vets and I are going to have to move my girl to any change in protein (for her) with a lot of supervision/planning, thought. She’s had pretty extensive & damaging/threatening allergic reactions and that’s scary.

I’ll share what I know re HS.

This HS line has existed for 20 yrs, and Eagle Pack (its sister company that it split off from), since 1970. Neither company has ever had a recall or major safety incident. They now are under Wellpet (Berwind family corporation), with Wellness, though operating rather independently.

HS exclusively uses its own manufacturing plant in Mishawaka, Indiana (dry food). (Cans are made by Simmons.)

HS informed me that they have a full time nutritionist on staff who formulated all the foods and remains involved. I asked if it was a veterinary nutritionist, i.e. board certified as DACVN. I was informed by phone that it is a PhD in animal nutrition. (I probably will follow up in writing to confirm and clarify.)

HS readily provided me with amounts of Taurine, prescursors Methionine & Cysteine. They stated that they have had no cases reported to them or to the FDA of DCM/heart issues from those feeding their foods.

The base looks good, as pretty traditional with primarily rice (brown and white) and oats, with a little pumpkin at #10. (Flaxseed rounds out the carb base at #8. ) They noted that 69% of the formula’s protein is animal protein (fish). Aside from the of course wild sourced sardines & anchovy, the salmon (#5 ingredient) is 96% wild and less than 4% farmed with their efforts being to have 100% wild caught fish in their formulas.

If I feed or include this formula, I would be adding sardines boosting the protein/fat and contributing some fresh/real food, along with continuing my rx’d therapeutic dosing of EPA/DHA via the wild Alaskan salmon oil I add to the food. (I use & recommend Grizzly’s brand.)

joanne, just fyi, the Annamaet GF formulas, and specifically the Aqualuk, were implicated in the FDA incident reports, and contains concentrated peas & legumes. The company was much less cited . . . which may speak well of the company . . . but still. I’d steer clear of their GF legume base formulas.

[GSDsForever]

Pat C,

If your dog can have chicken, I’d go with the Ultra as there is no health negative with this level protein and ultimately the fat level is good for most healthy dogs. I think the only concern here for you is that you noted your dog needs to lose a few pounds; so you might wish to either up your exercise or factor that in to how you feed in the short term, having lower fat, to reach ideal weight. Then just check your dog’s weight periodically and adjust the amount of food and exercise.

I think if your dog is going to remain on the inactive side long term and shows weight gain on the food, then you would consider a different formula with lower fat or simply feed a little less/adjust treats to low calorie/fat healthy fresh food “bites.”

Ideally, I personally would prefer a bit higher protein minimum and for healthy ideal weight dogs a bit higher fat than the Option (24/13). At 26/16, Extra’s levels appear very slightly better.

But I’ve never had an issue with higher fat in a food causing weight gain in my own dogs — and mine usually have needed the higher fat (weight maintenance, good coat & skin)!

One thing to consider that you haven’t mentioned:

Be careful re planned daily long term feeding of rice, particularly brown rice, depending upon sourcing in the US. It’s shown very, very high levels of arsenic when sourced from Arkansas, Lousiana, Texas (former cotton growing South) from the land (residue); humans have been advised to avoid consuming very frequently and/or choose less contaminated sources (California, India, Thailand, outside US). It would be another reason to choose more than one formula/carb base & company.

[malinda r]

i have been looking at pinto valley, their food does contain barley, alfalfa, etc, but not the usual peas/pea proteins:
Fresh deboned chicken, Chicken meal, Ground brown rice, Oatmeal, Ground dehulled barley, Ground whole flaxseed, Dehydrated alfalfa meal, Chicken fat (naturally preserved with Mixed tocopherols and Citric acid), Calcium carbonate, Natural flavor, Sea salt, Potassium chloride, Zinc proteinate, Iron proteinate, Dried Bacillus coagulans fermentation product, Vitamin E supplement, Beta-carotene, Inulin, Copper proteinate, Monosodium phosphate, Spinach, Manganese proteinate, Apples, Bananas, Blueberries, Broccoli, Cranberries, Dried kelp, Sweet potatoes, Niacin supplement, d-Calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A acetate, Riboflavin supplement, Calcium iodate, Vitamin B12 supplement, Thiamine mononitrate, Pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 supplement, Sodium selenite, Folic acid, Rosemary extract.

i currently feed stella & chewys freeze dried topper/patties…this adds a good amount of protein that does not contain legumes. i mix with a kibble, and like fromms, carna4. i have been using health extension canned at night. their small serving cans do not contain BPA, and low legume products in this as well.

[haleycookie]

What do you think corn gluten and wheat gluten are? They’re cheap protein upping ingredients the big companies use. Use meat based foods with the carb ingredient 3 or more ingredients down. Those are the companies that are spending buckets on quality meat sources in their foods. Purina is crap, blue is crap, Royal Canin are all cheaply made crap for insane prices. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Dogs DO NOT need carbs. of any kind. Most dog food brands that have a kibble formula make their foods to be 40-50-60%+ carbs, you know why? Because they’re cheap. And dog owners are busy and want the cheapest food they can find so they can pour it in their dogs bowls and leave. If the big three actually used real non bias science they would recommend making a fresh lean meat diet low in carbs for your dogs NOT kibble. Kibble is over processed crap no matter what kind of “science” is behind it. There is no other argument against it and for some reason people have been so blindly guided by these companies that claim “science” it’s almost sickening to me. Feed your dog meat, not corn, not wheat, not peas, not potatoes, seems like a pretty easy answer to me.
The dcm “scare” has less and less meaning to me everyday as I read more and more people misinterpreting the fdas warning, and people who are buying into the big threes bias science so blindly. Its really a shame people don’t ask more questions before jumping to conclusions.

[Susan]

Hi Ashley,
sounds like he had bad acid reflux, what he had eaten for breakfast was still in stomach not digested properly & it would of smelt awful so imagine the taste when he brought it up, you should of let him eat some grass not much about 1 mins worth or gave 1 piece of very brown dry toast. .. or give ant acid med Zantac/Pepcid, or 5ml liquid Mylanta would of relieved discomfort straight away…
Why Magnus wanted to eat & eat was to take away the acid taste in his throat & the bad taste after vomiting acid & undigested food that came up his esophagus, bad acid reflux can cause stomach ulcers, burn throat/esophagus & wind pipe when bad..
Next time this happens do you have liquid Mylanta, get small bottle keep in the fridge give him 5mls in a 20ml syringe this helps straight away, then after 20-30mins give him a few plain dry biscuits, or white breed made into toast cut in pieces, or buy Slippery Elm Powder make into a slurry..
Put 1/2 a teaspoon slippery Elm powder in a cup, boil the jug, then slowly add boiling water & stir quickly till you make a slurry, don’t make it too thick cause you need to pull up into a syringe.. you make it thin but not too thin or thick, you don’t make a paste…
Give Slippery Elm Slurry when dog has nausea, has just vomited to line his esophagus & stomach, when he’s mouth licking, swallowing, has upset stomach or diarrhea..

With kibble you don’t want Protein % too low under 25% as the carb % goes up when protein & fat is low low.. High carbs can cause acid reflux as well.. I feed 25% + Protein, 13% max -Fat & Fiber-5% max, Carbs -30% & under.

Have a look at “Wellness Core Large Breed Adult” Patch does really well on Wellness Core L/B & Canidae Pure Wild formula’s for his Acid reflux…
https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/core-large-breed-large-breed
Wellness have their “Wellness Simple” formula’s, Patch did well on the Simple Turkey & Potato kibble, I have found Patch does best on Potato Grain Free diets for his acid reflux you just have to work out what agrees best with your dog
Also be careful with Omega Oils, Fish Oil, Salmon, Oil, Coconut Oil, Linseed Oil these oils can cause acid reflux, same with high fiber diets, some of the low fat weight management kibbles are high in fiber low in fat.. make sure you check the fiber stay under 6%
also High Kcals kibbles are very dense & harder to digest, so stay under 370Kcals per cup

also feed 3-4 smaller meals a day, so his stomach isn’t empty too long
I feed 7am, 12pm, 5pm & a very small meal 7-8pm-1/4 a cup kibble..

Here’s the Wellness range, its often on special this is when I buy it, when I have my 25% off voucher.

For Dogs

Here’s the” Acid Reflux in dogs” F/B group, Acid Reflux is very common in dogs, my vet said she see at least 1-2 cases a week, owners don’t know what wrong or happening with their dog.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1635198406751056/

[SnowPyr]

I just want to thank everyone who is contributing for making all this information available, and Shane for his help as well. I’ve always fed my dogs Science Diet, but after discovering the health benefits of a low carb, natural diet for myself, I’d like to be able to provide the same for my dogs. But the recent association of grain-free diets and DCM in dogs has me afraid of risking trying something new. https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-fdas-grain-free-diet-alert/ I’m just starting this journey, but I’m grateful y’all are here to help!

P.S. another link https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/holistic-healthcare-library/food-diet—general/255/taurine-dog-food-and-heart-disease-in-dogs.aspx

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by SnowPyr. Reason: additional info

[Susan]

Hi,
Is Nature’s Variety raw?? When raw diet is too high in bone this can cause constipation..
My boy has IBD mainly stomach & he does really well on Wellness Core, Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato, Canidae Pure Meadow Senior & Canidae Pure Wild kibbles…
Actually dogs need less fiber or no fiber, Patches vet told me, a dogs digestive tract is short made to digest a raw meat diet..

If your looking for a kibble look at “Canidae Pure Meadow Senior” & “Wellness Core Senior” kibbles they both are high meat protein, low in carbs & the Canidae Pure Meadow formula is lower in fat 10.8% max & is very high in Omega oils for ageing joints & bones..

[Sandi O]

Many thanks to both of you Pugmomsandy and Patricia! I actually do go by body condition as a rule and Eli was losing his waist definition and tone a bit so we weighed him and he had crept up from a defined waisted 65-70 lbs to 75-77 and his waist was getting pudgy. He is an English lab and shorter than others I have had in the past. Also is very barrel chested. A quick glance and steady observation gives me the red light that it’s time to check weight. I wanted to do it slowly and safely so with both of your input pretty much in line with what I was doing I am comfortable now. Pugsmomsandy, I have also gone with lower carbs and higher protein until his waistline is where it should be.

[Patricia A]

jill b in answer to “don’t know what a boutique food is.” Dr. Lisa Freeman, a veterinary nutritionist at Tufts University, coined the term “BEG” diet, for boutique, exotic and/or grain-free. “I think all of those are suspect at this point,” Freeman said.

Exotic diets have unusual meats such as kangaroo, alligator, bison, venison and the like.

Best think you can do for your dog is variety and that goes with kibble also. Nothing wrong with at times at your convenience to substitute fresh food and lessen the kibble for that feeding. Nothing exotic just some boiled chicken, string beans, a little sweet potatoes, lean steak, lean, drained hamburger, plain broiled fish, watermelon etc. Always important to start with VERY little to see if it’s agreeable for your pets digestion. Find three brands and flavors of kibble. Maybe every two bags rotate with the other brand/flavor. Again VERY slowly until he gets used to each. Maybe when you’re down to 1/4 of a bag start putting in a few kibbles of the other brand/flavor. See how he does.

When you can’t give fresh as a topper use some freeze dried such as Primal. Very convenient and with both Primal freeze dried or even Stella and Chewy’s you don’t have to worry about the peas and carbs . AGAIN just a little piece of the nugget or pattie with a little warm water and give less kibble on side of bowl that day. My pet supply store has no problem with a full refund if they don’t do well with one of the flavors or proteins. So between the maybe two kibble rotations, toppers with fresh food at times, the freeze dried topper your dogs getting variety in nutrition and tastes. Absolutely no reason to feed only kibble to your dog its whole life.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Joseph G]

Dogs are not carnivores. It is a myth that dogs have similar dietary needs as wolves. Down to the genetic level, dogs are omnivores. For example, dogs have 30-times the starch digesting capability of wolves (the gene for the analysis enzyme is activated in dogs much more than in wolves).

Dogs do not require carbs like humans do so it’s reasonable to feed them a diet with a fair amount of meat, but there’s no scientifically sound reason to avoid starches or vegetables.

Methionine, the building block for taurine, is rich in some grains and poor in pulses, but no food tested had unusually low levels of methionine.

Behaviorally as well, dogs are very different from wolves. This is why kooks like Cesar Milan are frowned upon by the dog training profession.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Joseph G.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Joseph G.

[haleycookie]

@patricia. Some foods like dr elseys cat food and essence pet foods use things like agar agar or gelatin to bind the foods. Making it an optimal low low car dry food. However it’s incredibly expensive as well

However this particular food is loading up on carbs grains to hold the food together. It’s just a run of the mill lower quality grain food.

[haleycookie]

@joanne l orijen is a meat based food. Far more meat than anything Hill’s, purina, or rc will ever offer. They are some of the lowest carb dog foods around. So not sure where you all are getting your into it’s mostly peas. Acana is more but still under 40% of the food is vegetables and fruit.
They’ve been doing feed trials the past year on labs and beagles and have found no instances of heart problems so far. Not to mention most of those on this forum were incorrect on them not working with vets to formulate their foods. They seem to actually fit most of wsava guidelines, which I find comical.
If anyone would actually read the FDA’s article they’ll notice how they recommend to not change foods yet as this is still not a common issue at all. Not only that, the testing they’ve done on the foods have shown nothing conclusive and all foods are showing up balanced and appropriate. I suppose after they start testing the dogs and how the different breeds synthesize taurine in foods with peas we’ll know more, but is suspect it will be a genetic breed issue more than anything else. But til then it’s not a wide spread issue that I’m concerned about. Nor should anyone else be, this mass hysteria going on in this forum is almost comical. To think feeding a carnivore a mostly carb diet is healthy. hahahah. Whatever floats ur boat. I’m done arguing about it. I’ll just be reminding folk whom are concerned that it is a very small unproven issue at this moment and to not feed into the hysteria some of you push so hard.

[pugmomsandy]

@patricia a: I don’t weigh my pugs except rarely. They stay around 22-24 lbs which is heavy by standard. I will say that if I have an 18 lb foster standing next to my 20 something pug, they look the same except for mine have more muscle definition and they sure are strong. I always thought they were sled dogs in another life. They’ve been eating higher protein foods for years, including raw. I even put the fosters on a low carb, mod/high protein diet for weight loss.

[aimee]

haleycookie,

I read through Champion’s response and in my opinion it is very reminiscent of and just as unbiased as the response of the tobacco industry when the first link was made between smoking and cancer. : )

In my opinion, very cleverly written to model after the response of the tobacco industry, “our science found no concerns” but as I read it I find that what they are reporting is very vague and appears to be poorly done.

For example what is “long-term feeding trials with enhanced DCM protocols” In regards to length was it 2 days, 2 weeks, a month, 2 months?? Considering it isn’t yet know how long is may take for dietary DCM to become apparent how are they confident that their trial would have been long enough to find any abnormalities.

What are “enhanced DCM protocols”. The only takeaway I got from their response is that perhaps they measured taurine. Considering most cases have normal taurine levels it seems silly to me to sound an “all clear” based on that test.

Champion likes to point out that dietary DCM appears to be uncommon. The true incidence isn’t known. But I think it is fair to say that not every dog/cat consuming a problematic diet becomes ill. In the Melamine crisis huge numbers of dogs and cats that were exposed didn’t become ill. Same with the association between renal disease and chicken jerky or between grapes/raisins and renal disease. So for illustration sake let’s say that for problem “X ” 1 in a thousand becomes ill. Is testing several dogs relevant? I would say it is not. And Champion hasn’t said what number of dogs participated in their trials. Hmmm

Let’s look at this statement…
“In the recipes Champion makes, we emphasize fresh and raw meat with total animal-derived ingredients ranging from 60 to 85 percent of the finished product. Legumes are not a significant feature in Champion’s recipes, and never have been.”

Take the finished product Acana Free Run Poultry chosen at random GA is 29% protein 17% fat and 12 % moisture and I’ll toss in 3 % ash. 100-29-17-12-3= 39% min plant based nutrient.

Looking at the ingredient list and removing the animal based ingredients , and discarding the ingredients after salt leaves us with whole green peas, whole red lentils, whole pinto beans, , chickpeas, whole green lentils, whole yellow peas, lentil fiber,

Those ingredients, except for the fiber, are in addition to being sources of carbohydrate are also sources of protein From USDA nutrient database an average of 1 part protein for every 3 parts carb. So of that 29 % protein 10 grams may be from the legumes.

Total plant content 39 % + 10% and you get 49% plant based ingredients which I consider a “significant feature”
Total animal based 19% + 17% fat for a total of 36%

In that example I made assumptions as I am using the GA which is just min values therefore the results are not completely accurate but it is very different from the claim of 60-85% animal derived content in the finished product.
Personally, the only thing I can figure that may be 85% animal content finished product would be some of the treats.

Several years ago I asked Champion if they did AAFCO feeding trials. They answered affirmatively. On further inquiry as I recall I asked how long they were for and they replied a few weeks. Hmm more questions and they report they test for palatability, digestibility and stool quality. Most would assume by an AAFCO feeding trial they were talking about a trial for nutritional adequacy but that is not the response I got.

I see this response from Champion as nothing more than a marketing piece . I urge caution whenever looking at any statements made by any food manufacturer in regards to their product.

Perhaps if Champion really wanted to contribute to the knowledge base they should hire veterinary cardiologists and hold free echo screening for DCM for dogs who have eaten their food as their primary source of nutrition. With all the frequent buyer programs it shouldn’t be too hard for retailers to track Champion’s customers.

[haleycookie]

The protein is hard on their kidneys is a myth. Unless they have kidney problems already due to some other type of disease high protein will not hurt their kidneys. Dogs are carnivore’s that don’t require carbs in their diet. So their diet could be mostly protein and fat.
Why are u looking to go grain? Carb loading your dogs isn’t healthy for them. Most kibble is mostly carb though. Some lower carb foods include merrick backcountry, natures variety instinct, essence dog food, and canidae pure ancestral. All are American made and sourced to my knowledge. You could def email the companies and see though. Add toppers, raw boost bits, wet food, bone broths. All for hose things will ad variety into the diet and introduce less processed foods into their diet. If you’re worried about dcm just know taurine is not found in carbs, grains, or highly processed meats. It’s found solely in fresh meat and organs. So that is the route to go if you want a healthy heart.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by haleycookie.

[aimee]

Hi joanne l

It seems to me oat groats is just another word for whole grain oats so yes the bran, germ and endosperm are included. From the USDA nutrient database it appears that the total dietary fiber for oat groats is similar to other whole grains.

Human nutritionists seem to agree that whole grains are more healthful than their refined counterparts. so it surprised me that the nutritionist you talked to seems to be advising against them.

In regards to digestibility I found one comparative study done in dogs and oat groats had high digestibility. on par with other grains commonly used in dog foods. Not sure what exactly you mean by “hard to digest”, I’m guess you mean low total digestibility. Perhaps you can post a link to the study that reported that.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9fdb/1bb6f38f99956f823489c7980024aebfd216.pdf

from the abstract:

“Most dry dog foods are based on cereals, but very little published information and few comparative studies are available on the nutritive value of various cereals in dogs. To determine the apparent nutrient digestibilities and feed values of five different autoclave-processed and ground cereals: oat groats, barley, wheat, corn and rice, a digestibility trial was carried out on twelve adult huskies ac-cording to a 6 × 4 cyclic changeover design. Total tract organic matter (OM), crude carbohydrate and gross energy (GE) digestibilities were higher in rice than in all the other cereals. Apparent crude protein (CP) and acid hydrolyzed fat digestibilities of rice (80% and 94%, respectively) were as good as for oat groats (81% and 93%). However, oat groats had higher OM, CP and GE digestibilities than barley, wheat and corn. The amount of digestible crude protein (118 g kg-1 DM) was higher in oat groats than in the other cereals. Digestible energy contents (MJ kg-1 DM) of oat groats, rice, corn,wheat and barley were 17.1, 16.0, 15.7, 15.6 and 15.5, respectively. The quantity of excreted wet faeces increased and the percentage of dry matter (DM) in faeces decreased when oat groats, barley,wheat or corn were supplemented to the basal diet, in contrast to rice, which had the opposite effecton wet faeces excretion. Oat groats are good substitutes for rice or other cereals in dry dog foods.”

[haleycookie]

I’m confused. Didn’t u already say you tried purina and it made your dogs sick? And you also said you rotate among a variety of grain free foods? Or something to that effect? And yet your dogs do poorly on them?? I’ve read most of your posts on this forum. You seem to say one thing do another, ask a million questions and when you receive answers on both sides of the argument you do the exact opposite of whatever was suggested to you? Can’t tell if you’re genuinely confused or a troll.
Find meat based low carb foods that work for your dog and leave it at that. Have an echo done if you’re that concerned about a problem that isn’t even widely spread. Many many more dogs die from complications of obesity and inappropriate high carb diets and because of idiot owners and backyard breeders who result in the needless killing of thousands of dogs a day in shelters. I’d be more worried about that.

[christine v]

I really like this write up re; DCM, it’s a bit more balanced thn the scaremongering articles i often see bandies about.

“There has recently been a rising controversy regarding the effect of Taurine on dogs. Unfortunately, some veterinarians and manufacturers are incorrectly applying the concern to all breeds of dogs and using “grain-free” foods as a scapegoat in order to push their own product agenda. The recommendations from these individuals are unfortunately setting us up for much greater problems in the near future.

The facts:
• Unlike cats, dogs are able to synthesize taurine in their bodies

• Some dog breeds may suffer from taurine deficiency in relation to certain diseases and may need to have taurine added to their diets

• American Cocker Spaniels and certain giant breed dogs (produce taurine in their bodies at a slower rate) appear to be more prone to taurine deficiency

• There are no symptoms directly related to taurine deficiency, but instead symptoms are usually related to dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) which can be caused by taurine deficiency

• Grain-free pet foods are not the cause of taurine deficiency; however, potatoes and some legumes MAY affect taurine absorption if in large enough quantities (this is still unclear and only speculation at this point) and can be found in many “grain-free” as well as “grained” pet foods

Most importantly:
• The proportion of plant to animal protein sources may be a contributing factor (the lower the animal protein and the higher the plant protein, the more likely the food is to create low blood taurine levels)

• Many of the sick dogs from the original study had normal blood taurine levels and many of the dogs with low blood taurine levels did not respond to taurine supplementation

Conclusion:
Studies like this can be very good for the industry and our pets so long as they are interpreted correctly and organizations do not use the findings to further their agenda. Bottomline, grain-free foods are not the villain. It is irresponsible to claim that it is the problem given the actual true facts.

Genetics, disease, and large amounts of low-nutrient dense, high glycemic carbohydrates paired with minimal animal protein appears to be the problem, and would be even more specific than just blaming grain-free foods. There are grain-free foods to avoid, just as there are “grain-in” foods to avoid. Grains are certainly not an important, needed part of a dog or cat’s diet. But neither are carbs like potatoes, or peas which are mostly found in grain-free foods. They are merely replacements for grains like rice, corn, oatmeal, and others. Unfortunately dry kibble dog food (which is the only form of dog food this should even be associated with), MUST have those types of carbs in them to make the kibble hold together. It’s almost like the “glue” to keep it in kibble form.
We KNOW for a fact that corn and wheat do not do dogs any favors when it comes to their health! Rice is normally fine for most dogs but some will suffer from itchiness and other symptoms due to it being a high-starch carb. Obviously it would be best to avoid rice for an “itchy dog”. This is why grain-free foods exist. They would normally have a higher quality source of carbs binding them and without the toxins and allergens found in cheap cereal grains. It comes down to picking the lesser of evils on the carb source and figuring out what works best for your particular dog.
At EarthWise Pet, we have a comprehensive Certified Pet Dietitian program that trains individuals through over 500 hours of pet nutrition courses and material. Our expertise allows us to assess ingredients, manufacturing, and sourcing of all of our recommended foods. Because of this certification and vetting process, we offer a variety of grain-friendly and grain-free diets with low-carbohydrate content, minimal processing and high animal-based protein levels to ensure biologically appropriate, quality nutrition for your pets with sufficient levels of Taurine. If you have concern that your breed may be predisposed to taurine deficiency, ask your EarthWise Pet associate for recommendations and to see what food is right for your furry family member. We guarantee we have one that will fit your pet’s needs and give you confidence in the ingredients, sourcing and manufacturing processes of the food you feed.

I will add that I personally know thousands of dogs. I have not yet known of one to suffer from DCM, but I have known many that have been afflicted with Cancer, Diabetes, Obesity, and general poor health. In almost all cases, the dogs were fed low-quality dry dog food for most of their lives and that would usually consist of foods loaded with grains. Why would we want to go back to those kinds of diets, grains or no grains?!”

https://www.facebook.com/EarthWisePetHarpersPoint/posts/2349799205080076?__tn__=K-R

[Mike S]

Yeah carbs aren’t ideal, but many people assume grain free means low carb and that’s not the case. In fact, some dog foods without grains are higher in alternative carbohydrate sources like potatoes and peas.

[Ana C]

My dogs have pancreatitis history; therefore, they need low fat dog food. Of 9 best low fat dry food recommended by DFA, 7 are grain free. That leaves 2 brands with very high carbs. They are not from big 4.

[thank]

English is difficult. I use google translation. It is not spam.

Please tell me how to calculate “calorie weighted basis”.

It was written in the forum.
It uses a modified Atwater coefficient.

Below is the forum.

Forum of May 18, 2016. /forums/topic/calorie/

The modified atwater factor requires protein, lipids and carbohydrates.

“Guaranteed Analysis” exists.

What is the origin of proteins, lipids and carbohydrates used for the modified atwater factor?

Thank you.

[Bobby dog]

I read a comment on Skeptvet’s blog asking for advice from a Vet or two… I assume no one replied because they had not examined the dog.

Zignature never fell down a “rabbit hole.” Their whole schtick from the beginning was holistic, grain free, exotic meats, and no chicken, potatoes, wheat, soy, or corn that’s what they built their brand on, “Meat first provides the animal protein dogs need to thrive, while our limited ingredient philosophy eliminates allergenic ingredients, such as Chicken, Corn, Wheat Gluten, Soy, and Potatoes. The result is an optimal hypoallergenic, grain free, and low carbohydrate nutrition. We build on this natural foundation by adding vital supplements such as antioxidants, essential fatty acids, and a complete spectrum of vitamins and minerals for holistic pet food that goes beyond nature to become your pet’s signature food for life.” ~ Zignature

Don’t forget Zig’s endorsement of the Glycemic Research Institute…wonder if the creator of that business ever got their weight loss chocolate off the ground…

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT ZIGNATURE® CONTAINS NO POTATOES?
Potatoes have been identified as a high-glycemic carbohydrate for dog food. Zignature® only uses low glycemic carbohydrates such as whole Chickpeas, and garden Peas which also provide valuable soluble and insoluble fiber. For more details, visit the Glycemic Research institute.
https://zignature.com/faq/

[Christie B]

On the topic of “the big 4”, I think it’s important to go beyond the parent company and look at the ingredients on the bag to determine what food you should buy. Some product lines within a company are better than others. I don’t think you can rank Dog Chow the same as Pro Plan or Pedigree the same as Nutro.

Ingredients are important. 3 Chicken Formula Dry Food Ingredients Lists:

GROUND WHOLE GRAIN CORN, POULTRY BY-PRODUCT MEAL (SOURCE OF GLUCOSAMINE AND CHONDROITIN SULFATE), CORN GLUTEN MEAL, ANIMAL FAT (SOURCE OF OMEGA 6 FATTY ACIDS [PRESERVED WITH BHA & CITRIC ACID]), MEAT AND BONE MEAL (SOURCE OF CALCIUM), SOYBEAN MEAL, GROUND WHOLE GRAIN WHEAT, BREWERS RICE, NATURAL FLAVOR, CHICKEN BY-PRODUCT MEAL, DRIED PLAIN BEET PULP, SALT, CALCIUM CARBONATE, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, DRIED PEAS, ZINC SULFATE, DL-METHIONINE, MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, NIACIN [VITAMIN B3], BIOTIN, DRIED CARROTS, L-TRYPTOPHAN, BHA & CITRIC ACID (A PRESERVATIVE), BLUE 2, YELLOW 5, YELLOW 6, d-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN B5], RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT [VITAMIN B2], RED 40, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE [VITAMIN B6], COPPER SULFATE, SODIUM SELENITE, POTASSIUM IODIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE MONONITRATE [VITAMIN B1], VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, FOLIC ACID

Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, oat meal, medium-chain triglyceride vegetable oil, pea fiber, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish oil, barley, fish meal (source of glucosamine), L-Arginine, mono and dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, Vitamin E supplement, potassium citrate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, choline chloride, and sodium selenite

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, White Rice, Oatmeal, Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Egg, Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Monocalcium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Sodium Selenite, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics.

So the first one is a mess of “poor quality” ingredients and artificial colors. I would give that food a hard pass every day. In fact, I know someone with a Lab who has fed this food for the dog’s entire life. This 10 year old has a lot of joint and mobility issues.

The second one has the dreaded by-product label (at least it’s poultry and not ‘meat’ ) and lots of grains. Fish meal can be found a ways down the list for a boost of glucosamine.

The third has chicken and chicken meal as the first two ingredients, a plus for sure… and then Barley, rice, more rice and oatmeal follow…not ideal.

Are any of these GREAT food choices?

Every single time I go to the pet store, I wander the aisles reading ingredients lists. All I see are legumes and potatoes. Are they causing DCM? There’s no concrete evidence one way or the other yet. Was the my dog doing fine on Chicken and Rice for the first few years of his life before I found this website and gasped at the low rating his food received? Absolutely. Did I switch the grain free after reading through these forums? Sure did. Has he done ok with switch, all these years later? Nope. He’s developed allergies and sensitivities. But is it because of grain free formulas? I haven’t found concrete evidence proving that x and y caused the issues.

It’s a learning process to find what works best for your dog. Some can’t have grains, some can. My vet suggests feeding him boiled chicken and white rice when he’s not feeling well. Is my vet stupid or just telling me what he knows from his 30+ years of experience might help my dog. Has he called grain free food evil? No, but he cautions against it only because the inclusion of legumes and potatoes are ‘relatively’ new to animal nutrition and there isn’t enough research and studies done to prove that they are safe in the long term.

He told me that he’s always given his dogs Pro Plan but have never pushed me to purchase any of the big 4 brands. In fact, he said the best thing I can do is read the ingredients list myself. And to transition food properly. And if my dog has issues after eating 1-2 bags of a food, to look at the current ingredients and find a food that’s different.

[Rhianna H]

Looking for a Unicorn (other than Farmina and Natures Logic):

My guy has a chicken protein allergy but chicken fat is fine. He needs a higher protein food, preferably over 32% but the higher the better. It needs to be lower in carbs, preferably lower than 30% but am willing to venture up to 35% for the right food. MUST be grain inclusive with NO legumes (peas, chickpeas, lentils, etc.) and NO potatoes (white or sweet). I’d prefer no corn as well but will allow some with the right food. He’s currently on Nature’s Logic and I’ve looked into Farmina but am interested to see what else is possibly out there.

[haleycookie]

I would avoid the big 4. Hills just recently recalled all of their canned food after months of dogs dying and getting sick for overdosing on vitamin d. It was a contaminated vitamin pack a lot of companies got back in late 2018 and most of them recalled quickly before any adverse affects, hills however chose not to even tho they have supposedly the best “safety measures” of any dog food company.
Go for a food that is high in meat content, at least the first 3-5 ingredients should be meat or organs. The fda clearly states this “scare” is mainly related around dog foods that are mostly made up of pea. So lower end grain free foods. There are high meat foods on the market that are very good. Also ad canned food which is less processed and has less vegetable matter than kibble therefore will have more natural taurine present. Add chicken hearts or beef heart in with your dogs food as well. And plain chicken broth.
Taurine comes from whole fresh meat. Not grains. Not peas. Etc. I would focus on making your dogs diet as appropriate as a dogs should be. Meaning less than 30% carbs.

[Candace P]

I really good dry dog food is Orijen, and it is one of the lower carb, grain free kibbles around, made in Canada and if your dog does not have any food sensitivities, they have several flavors to rotate feedings . . . it just didn’t work for the dog I have now, but her poops were almost like a dog’s that is eating a raw diet . . . not to be graphic but they came out in nuggets instead of being all compressed together into a squishy turd (sorry).

Right now I am feeding Nom Nom Now, it is a cooked dog food that is shipped to your door. It runs me about $130/mo for my 50lb pit bull mix and she has all kind of issues such as crusty skin bumps, yeasty feet (why I need a low carb dog food), and cannot tolerate chicken or beef. She is fed the Nom Nom Now pork with Nulo salmon kibble. Her bumps are completely gone for the first time in about two years, but I think the kibble may be a little too high in carbs as her feet aren’t doing well. I am thinking of trying Ketona Natural kibble because it a a new very low carb, high protein salmon kibble (they make a chicken as well).

[haleycookie]

Who wants to take a wild guess at the massive amount of dogs who died or became chronically ill from being fed a carb loaded improper diet and subsequently developed diabetes, abscessed teeth, and the large variety of health issues cheap low quality kibbles cause and they’re owners never realized it??? I’ll tell you how many, more than any dog that has been (or will be for that matter) affected by dcm. But you know their vet said to feed it so it must be the best right? Lmfao

[haleycookie]

Hydrolyzed foods are typically for dogs with severe food sensitivities. I would have further testing done before moving to that. I don’t really consider it a long term food to feed either, it’s over priced and full of carbs and hardly any meat protein whatsoever. I also don’t think it’s a very good look for the vet to not want to investigate further into what caused this to happen to your dog and just immediately say it’s due to diet . I would def get a second opinion.
A fresh home cooked (preferably raw tho) diet is ideal. However you have to be sure you’re doing it correctly. A model for raw to follow is the 80/10/5/5, 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% secretory organ. Cooked is different and I would consult with a nutritionalist before moving to a cooked diet as that is very different than raw.

[Susan]

Hi Rose,
I have a Staffy who suffers with IBD, Helicobacter, bad acid reflux, vomiting nausea, have you asked vet to do Endoscope + Biopsies to see if she has Helicobacter or Ulcers??
Vet needs the biopsies results then he’ll have answers or ask vet can he prescribe you the Triple Therapy meds that kills Helicobacter its – Metronidazole, Amoxicillin taken every 12 hours with a meal & 20mg- Omeprazole (Prilosec) taken in morning once a day or I give Patch Pantoprazole-20mg now, Dog takes the Triple Therapy meds for 21 days & when the Metronidazole & Amoxicillin is finished you continue giving the PPI – Omeprazole or Pantoprazole 20mg…
research shows the Helicobacter cant live in the stomach when taking a PPI…

after 1 year Patch on 20mg-Omeprazole Patch started gulping grass, vomiting, feeling sick he got really bad the Omeprazole wasn’t helping him anymore so we did another Endoscope + Biopsies & Patches Wind Pipe & Esophagus was red & inflammed & his back teeth had Gingivitis from the acid coming up his esophagus, then I asked the vet can we change his PPI (Omeprazole) to Pantoprazole what I take for my GORDS when I tried the Omeprazole it didn’t help me either, when we did another Endoscope + Biopsies in January 2018 vet said Patches Lower Esophageal Sphincter (LES) flap isn’t closing properly & the acid is washing back up his esophagus & the Pantoprazole seems to work best for LES….

I wouldn’t be feeding the vet diets they made Patches Acid reflux worse as they are high in, carbs, Omega oils this can make the acid reflux worse + the high carbs & grains are no good for acid reflux…
Look at “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato kibble or a Limited ingredient single protein kibble that has potato or sweet potato & not high in carbs-30% fat-13% max, fiber-5% & under, & feed 4-5 smaller meals a day 7am, 9am, 12pm, 5pm & 7.30pm & if you can feed some cooked meals say for Lunch lean white meat -Turkey breast + 1/2 boil sweet potato pieces & freeze the sweet potato pieces, they freeze & thaw really well, then I thaw 1 pieces & mash on a plate & warm 7sec in Micro wave when Patch seems unwell the Sweet Potato soothes the esophagus & stomach….

Go Health food store & buy “Slippery Elm Powder,” add 1/2 a teaspoon to a cup, boil the jug & slowly add boiling water & quickly stir & make a slurry paste thick but thin enough so you can pull up into a 20ml syringe pull up 4ml of the slippery elm paste/slurry& put syringe in side mouth towards dog back teeth & push she will swallow it, give 20mins before meals or after she has vomited up all the acid the slippery Elm will line & protect her esophagus & wind pipe + stomach..
I give Patch those Quick Eze Rapid Chews Forest flavour, I cut 1 in 1/2 & wrap the other 1/2 up for next time & Patch chews & chews the Quick Eze, years ago I was giving him Liqiud Mylanta 4mls in syringe keep the Mylanta in the fridge so it soothes the throat, esophagus & stomach.. I’m wondering when she coughing is she naturally coughing up the acid from wind pipe this is what Patch was doing..
Maybe find a better vet that will help, my vet said they get in at least 4-5 dogs in a week who are suffering from bad acid reflux, vomiting etc, a diet change to home cook would be best or like I do I feed 3 meals a potato or sweet potato kibble & the other 2 meals cooked lean meal with boiled sweet potato & a lean white meat, just till she is stable then start looking into balancing her diet, my vet said they can go 2 months without balancing the diet…

She definitely needs an acid blocker & some Metronidazole, the Metronidazole will kill the helicobacter, its sound like Helicobacter, need a gluten free diet, no sugar carbs as the Helicobacter thrives on sugar..

[Debora C]

Hey all. I”m looking for a good quality, Hi animal protein, low carb dog food. My female continues to get UTI, or struvite crystals. I’d like to try lessening the carbs she eats and upping the protein. PResently she is eating Nutrisource adult chicken and rice. She is a year and a half and is an active dog. She weighs about 50 pounds. I just read that Nutrisource has a super Performance dog food, but would love to know what else is available that actually contains real meat / meal. I do not want a grain free dog food.
thanks bunches and have a super night.
~debbie

[Diana C]

Well, They can both eat wet canned food and dry foods.
The food should contain high protein and low carbohydrate also have good taste.
That’s why I feed my cockapoo with raw meat and bones because I think it is better than any pedigree and bakers etc and i also recommend you the same.

[Patricia A]

Instict ultimate Protein I believe contains no legumes or potatoes. Tapicoa is used for a binder. BUT…..theres ALWAYS a but unfortunately …
Tapioca, like Potatoes and Sweet Potatoes, is a drastically different source of carbohydrates when compared to both grains and legumes, which can allow it to be an excellent option in specialist diets. However, one downside of Tapioca is that it has a very high glycaemic index value, similar to that of White Rice or Potatoes. A high glycaemic index means it raises a dog or humans insulin levels at a fast rate and so must not be given to dogs that are diabetic or overweight as it could have a detrimental effect on their health. While the importance of the glycemic index of ingredients is often misunderstood or exaggerated, this is worth noting.

[Patricia A]

Anon I feel you really can’t win with kibble. It will either be the carbs/potatoes or peas. It will always be in kibble as a binder to hold it together. Pet owners should really say no thank’s to ALL kibble. However because of convenience most won’t ever consider an alternative way of feeding.
That being said it’s the amount of the starches that are necessary to make a kibble vs the extra they put in to displace a meat protein vs pea protein. I don’t believe potatoes displaces the protein but I don’t want a food full of potatoes either. I prefer a low carb food. My husband sneaks pieces of potatoes and pasta to them already. So they don’t need any more carbs for weight gain.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.

[Susan]

Hi Jamie,
My boy suffers with IBD, I feed kibbles that have Potato & Sweet Potato works best for him, as soon as he eats Hills, Purina or Royal Canine we end up at the vets needing a course of Metronidazole, he doesn’t do well on grains..
Your best off doing an elimination diet to work out if she has food sensitivities??…
Get a kibble that has just 1 meat protein & 1-2 carbs like “Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato” kibble then once your dog is stable & doing really well start adding 1 new ingredient over a 4-6 week period & see do the poos get sloppy & keep a diary.. Does she mouth lick & swallow, gulp (Acid Reflux) when she vomits is it yellow??
I’m wondering does she have the Helicobacter?? It’s a bad bacteria that lives in the stomach walls, does she act like she is starving all the time?? this is 1 of the symptoms you have when you suffer with Helicobacter + vomiting & acid reflux this is what Patch suffers with, Best to do Endoscope + Biopsies if it vomiting continues..
or ask vet can prescribe the Triple Therapy meds to kill the Helicobacter, meds are – Metronidazole, Amoxicillin & Omeprazole taken for 21 days given every 12 hours with a meal the 20mg x Omeprazole is just given of a morning once a day…

When Patch was eating a kibble that was Lamb or Fish he was vomiting, so I don’t know were these kibbles higher in contaminates, heavy metals & toxins?? cause since he’s been eating Wellness, Canidae the vomiting has all stopped now he does take an Acid blocker called “Pantoprazole” 20mg of a morning now Vets normally prescribe 20mg- Omeprazole.. when they have acid reflux – gulping, mouth licking, swallowing, grinding teeth, vomiting early hours of the morning yellow acid vomits..
also are you feeding 4 smaller meals a day, don’t feed 2 large meals a day, its too much work on the pancreas & stomach.
I feed at 7am-1 cup, 12pm-1/3 a cup, 5pm-1cup & 7.30pm-1/4 a cup some lunch days Patch doesn’t eat kibble he eats cooked meal boiled sweet potato, no rice as rice ferments in the gut or freeze dried “Frontier Pets” has human grade ingredients.

These foods Patch does really well on

Wellness Core Large Breed Adult Chicken & Turkey
Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato
Wellness Complete Health Grain Free Chicken
Canidae Pure Wild Boar
Canidae Pure Meadow Senior Chicken & Turkey
Nutragold Turkey & Sweet Potato

I rotate his Grain Free kibbles as soon as the kibble bag is running out, I buy another brand that has Sweet Potato or Potato lean white meats are best to stay away from fish as main protein as fish is higher in toxins & contaminates.
Then I rotate old kibble & mix in the new brand kibble over 1 week, then do the same as the new kibble starts ending make sure you have enough kibble for 10days to introduce a kibble she was doing well on or another brand you want to try.. best to have at least 3 different brands you know she does OK on..
My boy starts to react if he eats the same dry kibble month after month also rotating foods strengthen their gut & immune system, you should start her on a good probiotic so her gut gets healthy… Wellness & Canidae have the Probiotics sprayed on the kibbles to strengthen gut.

A really good product called “Adored Breast Healthy Gut”
If you want to try something natural Adored Beast is getting great reviews from people who have a dogs suffering with IBD & IBD..
Have a look at “Adored Beast Gut Soothe” & “Adored Beast Love Bugs”

“Adored Breast Healthy Gut”
https://www.adoredbeast.com/collections/all

Julie Anne Lee – “Adored Beast Love Bugs” – Probiotics & Prebiotics

Have you joined the “Dogs with Inflammatory Bowel Disorder IBD” on facebook
it’s a really good group when you need help…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/11164787803/

Also after she vomits or 20mins before she eats have you tried Slippery Elm powder made into a Slurry it soothes the esophagus, stomach & bowel..

I use the Slippery Elm Powder made into a slurry, go to health food store buy slippery elm powder not the capsules. Health food store sell the Slippery Elm powder..
add 1/2 a teaspoon into a cup, boil the jug & slowly add the boiling water & stir quickly till you get a thin paste/slurry you pull up into a syringe 4ml & give 20mins before a meal.. I cover the cup with foil put in fridge & take out when needed again, it turns into a jelly then boil the jug & slowly add boiling water & stir till you have a slurry again & use then I throw out & make a new batch the next day..
Slippery Elm powder soothe the esophagus, stomach & bowel, good for nausea, acid reflux, rumbling grumbling gasses going thru the bowel – loud noises.. also helps firm poos..