[Bonnie E]

I have been looking for a easily commercially available, well rated (4-5 stars), small bites dog food made with poultry and grain and with protein 25% or less. We like to be able to feed the same food to all of our adult dogs. With the young dogs we just add some chicken breast, etc. but apparently, as they get older, a high protein content is not good for their kidneys. Most websites will sort for “Grain Free” but not for “Grain”. Obviously, I want to avoid the “Made in China” or “Sourced from China”, etc. as much as possible.

What we have been feeding has been discontinued. I have spent hours looking. Help!

[Patricia A]

I think the belief that high protein CAUSES kidney problems has been debunked.
Are high protein diets harmful to my dog’s kidneys?

A. A rumor has been going around that high protein diets cause kidney disease. This rumor is false. High protein pet foods are NOT harmful to a normal animal’s kidneys. As an animal’s body digests and metabolizes protein, nitrogen is released as a by-product. The excess nitrogen is excreted by the kidneys. A high protein diet produces more nitrogen by-products and the kidneys simply excrete the nitrogen in the urine. While you may think this would ‘overwork’ the kidneys and lead to possible kidney damage, this is not true. The kidney’s filtering capabilities are so great that even one kidney is sufficient to sustain a normal life. There are many pets – and humans – living perfectly healthy lives with just one kidney.

The myth that high protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low protein (and thus low nitrogen) diets. Now, we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein, but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products. These diet changes are made merely because damaged kidneys may not be able to handle the excess nitrogen efficiently. In pets with existing kidney problems, nitrogen can become too high in the bloodstream, which can harm other tissues.

Unless your veterinarian has told you your pet has a kidney problem and it is severe enough to adjust the protein intake, you can feed your pet a high protein diet without worrying about ‘damaging’ or ‘stressing’ your pet’s kidneys. Also, you are not ‘saving’ your pet’s kidneys by feeding a low protein diet.

Article by: Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith

[haleycookie]

The protein is hard on their kidneys is a myth. Unless they have kidney problems already due to some other type of disease high protein will not hurt their kidneys. Dogs are carnivore’s that don’t require carbs in their diet. So their diet could be mostly protein and fat.
Why are u looking to go grain? Carb loading your dogs isn’t healthy for them. Most kibble is mostly carb though. Some lower carb foods include merrick backcountry, natures variety instinct, essence dog food, and canidae pure ancestral. All are American made and sourced to my knowledge. You could def email the companies and see though. Add toppers, raw boost bits, wet food, bone broths. All for hose things will ad variety into the diet and introduce less processed foods into their diet. If you’re worried about dcm just know taurine is not found in carbs, grains, or highly processed meats. It’s found solely in fresh meat and organs. So that is the route to go if you want a healthy heart.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by haleycookie.

[Bobby dog]

haleycookie,what’s your theory on why dogs OFTEN diagnosed with dietary DCM ARE NOT TAURINE DEFICIENT?

[anonymous]

https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-four-star-nutritionals-salmon-a-la-veg-food-for-dogs “small kibbles”

You can call Fromm for more information and where you can purchase.
https://frommfamily.com/ 1- 800-325-6331
According to the person I spoke to at Fromm they have a veterinarian and a nutritionist on staff.

[Bobby dog]

When did Fromm hire a full-time ACVN Vet or credentialed small companion animal nutritionist? Less than a month ago Tracy from their customer service department confirmed in writing they do not have anyone with credentials in either category on staff full time nor do they consult with anyone with those credentials. Tracy further explained they consult only with veterinarians, biochemists, microbiologists, biologists, research specialists and food production engineers to formulate their foods; all are consultants, not on staff.

[anonymous]

Bump:

You can call Fromm for more information and where you can purchase.
https://frommfamily.com/ 1- 800-325-6331
According to the person I spoke to at Fromm they have a veterinarian and a nutritionist on staff.

You can draw your own conclusions after speaking to someone directly at Fromm.

They won’t come here despite all the misinformation. The person I spoke to said to encourage people that have questions to feel free to contact them with any concerns, also their website is very informative.

[Bobby dog]

Conclusions??? They either have credentialed people on staff full time or don’t, easy peasy.

I’ve contacted them several times via phone and e-mail over the last year when I read erroneous comments such as yours about their staffing with SPECIFIC questions about full-time credentialed staff not just do you talk to/employ Vets or nutritionists. Specific questions pertaining to credentials, ACVN and/or credentialed small animal nutritionist, and full time staffing. Consulting or employing an DVM with no further education in nutrition or people educated in people food production is not enough for me. Which according to Tracy they only consult with people that are not educated in small animal nutrition.

Same response each time, no ACVN Vet or credentialed small companion animal nutritionist on staff full-time or even consulted with…LOTS of misinformation posted about Fromm by die hard fans for sure. Of course there’s always a chance within the last three weeks they did hire credentialed people to work full-time with their “Head Chef” with a chemical engineering degree…

[anonymous]

When Should I Switch My Pet To A Senior Diet?

“Although it is a common belief, reduced dietary protein is not beneficial for the healthy older dog or cat. In fact, lower protein diets for older dogs and cats may have negative effects by contributing to muscle loss. Therefore, dogs and cats should not be fed a reduced protein diet just because they are aging. The “optimal” protein level for older dogs and cats, however, is still controversial. Some companies make senior diets with lower protein while others actually make their senior diets with increased protein. Just like there’s no evidence for benefits of a low protein diet, it also is not clear that high protein diets are beneficial or even optimal for seniors.”
Cornell Vet. 1985 Apr;75(2):324-47.
Nutrition and metabolism of the geriatric dog.
Sheffy BE, Williams AJ, Zimmer JF, Ryan GD.
Abstract
Sixteen 10-12-year-old and eight 1-year-old dogs were studied over a two year period to determine comparative differences in physiological response to 4 diets varying in protein content and percentages of energy contributed by protein. The ability of old dogs to utilize nutrients as supplied by these foods was not significantly different from that of young adult dogs. Except for indices of mitogenic stimulation and serum urea nitrogen (SUN) other physiological parameters studied were not affected by the diet fed. Regardless of diet, old dogs had significantly higher serum levels of cholesterol, phosphorus and alkaline phosphatase and had lower indices of mitogenic stimulation than did young dogs.

[anonymous]

Fromm, not one complaint.
https://www.bbb.org/us/wi/mequon/profile/wholesale-pet-foods/fromm-family-foods-llc-0694-14038188#overview

Now in comparison: Purina
https://www.bbb.org/us/fl/largo/profile/wholesale-pet-foods/purina-dog-and-cat-food-0653-90297868

[Bobby dog]

What do reviews on the BBB have to do with having full-time credentialed employees on staff? You can find complaints about anything on the Internet as you well know and have posted about before. Last defense of the indefensible, not employing full time credentialed employees maybe?

Guess what, I feed Eukenuba. I’m sure there are complaints as well as good reviews on the Internet about this kibble too. lol

WSAVA recs and AAFCO compliant foods are where I start my searches for pet food that is acceptable for me to feed my pets. No blinders on, if any fail to meet these standards I will move on, no big deal. 😉

You have been a die hard fan of several foods since you have been posting on DFA, that’s wonderful. I am just correcting misinformation posted about Fromm, you should agree with that as you seem concerned about misinformation being posted. Or, as I wrote previously maybe Fromm has since hired full-time credentialed employees to make their recipes.

[anonymous]

http://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-consultant-and-full-time-employee
excerpts below (out of context)
Key Difference: A full time employee is an employee of the company that works there full time. They have all the benefits of employment, including being on the payroll, vacations, benefits, overtime, etc
A consultant is a specialized professional who provides expert advice in their field. Hence, they are often hired for a particular task or project on which they can apply their expertise or give advice.

A consultant, on the other hand, is different.
While they are also an employee of the company, their role can vary tremendously depending on the contract that they have with the company.
At the core of the definition, a consultant is a specialized professional who provides expert advice in their field. Hence, they are often hired for a particular task or project on which they can apply their expertise or give advice. For example: a tax consultant may be brought on to handle the finances as required on a new project that the company is developing, or perhaps to go over the company’s books to put them in order.

[Bobby dog]

If consultants only educated in people food production or Vets with no education in small animal nutrition is good enough for you, that’s wonderful. I am just correcting misinformation about Fromm’s staffing…

I want a company to invest back into their company, hire full-time credentialed employees educated in small animal nutrition.

[anonymous]

You forgot, they have a veterinarian (consultant employee) too 🙂
Yes! That’s more than good enough for me.
My dogs are thriving on Fromm. My vet approves and he’s seen and heard a lot of things over the years.

There are many other good foods out there too.

@Bonnie F
What were you feeding before (that went out of business)?
My friend’s dog is doing well on Nutrisource. She switched from Zignature as I did due to the grain-free scare although neither of us had any issues with Zignature.

I dog-sit for her once in a while and the Nutrisource kibble doesn’t look big to me.
Here it is https://www.amazon.com/Nutrisource-Adult-Chicken-Rice-Food/dp/B07D5D9BNB/ref=sr_1_5?crid=27KISNSV3VE03&keywords=nutrisource+dog+food&qid=1561136201&s=pet-supplies&sprefix=ntrisource+dog+food%2Cpets%2C317&sr=1-5

[Bobby dog]

Yes, that’s wonderful it’s “more than good enough” for you. Just correcting misinformation YOU posted about Fromm’s staffing not critiquing your choices in food or a Vet. 😉

[anonymous]

“Just correcting misinformation about Fromm’s staffing”
Well, in that case.
Bump: /forums/topic/small-bites-dog-food/#post-141131

[joanne l]

I think the reason maybe is exotic meats. Maybe a chemical they are using to preserve the meat that is coming in. I know I wasn’t ask but wanted to share my thought on it.

[anonymous]

The original poster:
“I have been looking for a easily commercially available, well rated (4-5 stars), small bites dog food made with poultry and grain and with protein 25% or less”.

Yes, and that is what I gave my opinion on (previous posts) before I was sidetracked with comments that are not relevant to your question and I made the mistake of responding.

I would narrow your selections down to about 3 choices and then consult with a veterinary healthcare professional as to which would be best for your dogs and their specific needs. It’s best if you have a vet that is familiar with your dogs.

Keep in mind that what you read on forums are considered opinions and not necessarily facts.

Best of luck

[Bonnie E]

Thank-you to all of you for your thoughtful remarks.
I realize that there are two opinions on the kidney problems vs. high protein: old school – lower protein, vs newer theory – protein content is not of major significance. Since one of our dogs is older and showing signs of kidney problems, I am trying to err on the side of caution and keep the protein moderate (24, 25, 26%).
Grain free is a diet that many dogs thrive on and, I have been told, is especially good for dogs/breeds that tend towards bloat and torsion. However, there is also some new, tentative research that shows possible links to cardiac problems. Ours, for multiple generation over 30+ years, have thrived on grain, so I would rather stay with a grain base. Incidentally, our vet said she liked the oatmeal base of one of the dog foods better than the more traditional brown rice.
Ours are Shelties – medium small. The only thing I have found that seems to make a significant difference is the “small bites”. For whatever reason, they seem to digest the “small bites” better.
I started from the DFA list of 15 best small bites dog food. Fromm did not show up on that list so I sort of forgot about them. Thank you for bringing them to my attention. Whether or not they have a certified Vet on staff, I have heard many good things about them: quality ingredients, careful production, very few if any recalls, no China connection. Good company.

[anonymous]

Thanks for the feedback.
I was surprised at how small some of the Fromm kibble are, the Salmon La Veg is our current favorite, I have a 9 pound dog with a sensitive stomach that really appreciates the small bites.
Like you mentioned, I also add a topper, a bite of chopped boiled chicken, scrambled egg and such and always a splash of water.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by anonymous.

[Bonnie E]

Esp to anon 101 since you asked: we were feeding Natural Balance, mixed poultry and brown rice, small bites. Even though its not very highly rated, the dogs seemed to do well on it. We became acquainted with them when we had an IBD dog who could only eat lamb & brown rice. They are not out of business, but they stopped making their mixed poultry/brown rice in small bites. (Also, in my world, this rating is only one more piece of information. A very good piece, but the major factors are avoid China, do the dogs like it, eat it , and not have diarrhea, vomiting, etc..)
The Fromm recommendation is excellent. My only concern with them is the oat groats and pearl barley. Good nutrition, but I’m not sure if our dogs would break down the whole kernels well.
The other food we have been looking at is Wellness, turkey and oatmeal, for small breeds. Our vet likes the oatmeal base. Highly rated.
I try not to start from too high a protein content simply because we almost always add something: chicken breast, cod or salmon, scrambled egg, etc. It’s easier to bring the protein content up than it is to drop it down.
FYI: our shelties are English. Our “little one” is only 14 lb (healthy, happy, energetic, but small); the other two are just under 20 lbs. and just under 14″ at the withers. Smaller than American. (They regard the American Shelties as “cloddy”) At any rate thank-you for your help. I always worry when I have to change foods.

[anonymous]

The oat groats in dog food are highly processed and pretty much the same thing as oatmeal. Same as the pearled barley, everything is broken down already.
It’s been recently discussed here
/forums/topic/oat-groats/

The Wellness turkey and oatmeal looks good too, I’d get a small bag of whatever food you choose and see how it goes.
PS: It’s 28% protein (Wellness turkey and oatmeal) according to Chewy dot com

[anonymous]

https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/four-star/dry/highlander-beef-oats-n-barley-recipe

Just received a small bag of this today. Delighted to see small kibble! Will try it as a change from salmon la veg.
I know my terrier will like it, maybe my allergy dog too. They both will eat anything, but I want to see how they do on it.
Maybe I will alternate, we’ll see…

[Bonnie E]

Thanks for the heads up.

[Author]

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