[InkedMarie]

In this forum, above, highlighted in yellow, is a stickie on large breed puppy nutrition. Somewhere in that very long thread is a list of appropriate brands for large breed puppies. I’d start with the last page & work backwords to find the link to the list. Once you see the list, you can go to the website for the food & look for non-chicken ones.

[Taylor S]

Hello Guys,
Our dog suffered from severe skin issues, primarily rashes under our boxer’s armpits and his belly. I was so fed up with stuff that did not work both from the web and our vets I read extensively on the benefits of SCFA’s and probiotics for helping dog’s allergies. A research journal lead me to a particular flax seed developed by a farming co-op that grows a specific flax seed for dogs. There website included canine products with their flax. I used the VitaHound product that includes enzymes and probiotics with the flax, and it worked, no more rash and no more itching. So great to see someone advocating for this type of approach, keep posting on the benefits of SFCA’s and probiotics, the vet profession needs to help their patience use these compounds to help their suffering dogs and not have to figure it out on their own. I look forward to visiting your site keep up spreading the word.

[Amber C]

So I’m reaching out for a little advice… my 8 years old mutt (German Shephard, Collie, Lab mix) was on, please don’t all hate me since I didn’t know better, purina for 7 years. After getting lymes disease amongst a lot of other health problems including diarrhea on a weekly basis, we hit the Internet for answers and a better dog food. He has a thyroid problem and is on pills now that have taken the diarrhea away (thank goodness!). We switched him about a year ago to Taste of the Wild. He’s tried about all different flavors and we mixed in canned and dry kibble. His coat looked amazing and his life long dandruff disappeared! Overall health was much healthier, like a whole different dog. The vet said TOTW would lead to kidney problems and it wasn’t good for him, they recommended science diet. I read about TOTW and heard so many bad reviews, so after 7 months on it, I switched over to Whole Earth Farms, again mixing wet with dry. I found the stews mixed better than the pate recipes, but he does get both cycled in with the chicken turkey dry kibble and the red meat mix kibble. He loves the food, he’s not picky at all though, he’d eat anything in front of him short of the kitchen sink, but his dandruff that he had his whole life is back. I wanted to keep him on rotation, maybe 3 different brands switching every 4 months or so, and even though everyone seems so anti TOTW, it made him look and act healthier, but im nerrors about a bad batch! There’s no other problems with whole earth farms besides the dandruff coming back. Im a little at a loss. He weighs over 90lbs, not an ounce overweight, so he requires food… lots of food and budget is a consideration. TOTW was pricey for me, but doable if it was good for him. Anyone have any suggestions or thoughts? Anything would be of help, we’re about halfway through 2 different bags of WEF, so I just need to figure it out before we run out.

[Allison C]

Long time lurker, but joined this forum to address tons of questions that I used to bother Petco employees with and never got a definitive answer to.

I have two senior toy poodles, one (9lb) with medium activity level, the other one (smaller, 6lb) with little to none activity level. Suffice to say I try to get as much exercise for them as possible but the smaller one is just way too stubborn and lazy–let’s save that topic for another day.

We were on Wellness Core Original for some 10 years or so. Now I’m looking to jump ship because I figured the dogs could use a variety in their food life and also I came to believe that limited ingredient diet is better for my aging dogs. Right now we’re on Canidae Pure Salmon but I don’t know if the dogs like it as much as they did Wellness.

In my search for dog food I tried to look at those with protein % of 30 or more but it’s not easy to reconcile that with the limited ingredient factor.

But I recently heard/read somewhere that high protein food isn’t good/effective for inactive dogs. Because if that’s true, I can just feed my dogs Wellness Simple, which comes with relatively low protein %. Is it true that high protein can be bad?

[Bev A]

Ok, I will start with that. However the diet you gave me from Meg I have already used. She loved it for about 3 days and then decided yuck and turned her nose up to it. I haven’t gotten a second opinion for a couple reasons, one I simply can’t afford another vet bill, hers stays high and has all her life. And 2, if they decided to keep her over night she would stress so much she would go into a seizure. She has never in all her almost 14 years never been away from me for more than a few hours. They had to pull some teeth and she did very well but the vet said she hadn’t woke up so she would call me when she did. A couple hours went by and she called me and said, Bev you know I never do this but Bitty has not woke up yet. Would you come by, I think she just knows you aren’t here/ so I went in. They brought her out wrapped in her blanket and she was sound asleep. So they handed her to me and I said, Bitty you have to wake up now so we can go home. That little tail started wagging and the vet said, I knew it. She would have laid there and died because I was not there. She is very attached to me. No she never has large amounts of urine, maybe the size of a quarter if that. But she does leak urine now if she sleeps very hard, or if she isn’t eating. Seems that is better when she is willing to eat right. And there hasn’t been a lot of testing done. The vet feels there could be an ulcer and she gets meds for that from time to time. She really stresses when I leave her at home. She does get lonely which is why I have another dog, a Pomeranian. Seems as long as there is another animal for her to compete with she is better. I wish she was more willing to eat some other foods. I have gone through hundreds of dollars of different foods over the years and she has just refused them. I did buy liver and lightly cooked it. She will eat it if I hand feed her and if Katie is there to take a bite every time she does. I get my goats milk from a dog food treat store. She refuses to drink it but I freeze it in ice trays and take out a couple cubes from time to time and put it in a syringe. She gets no choice in the matter. She is just so stubborn! I don’t know if this site allows us to share email addresses so won’t put mine here but if they do or if admin will give it to you and you don’t mind me having your I would be willing. I so appreciate your help.

[Kristine V]

Hi all,

Thank you all for your support and suggestions. Koji’s symptoms started early September. We noticed he was looking a little skinny and suddenly he started throwing up before eating, after eating, eating grass etc. On evening of day 3 and throwing up, we took him to his vet. They gave him a shot to help with the nausea. The last time he had seen his vet was in June for his last puppy shots. From June to September he had not gained any weight. His symptoms were slowly creeping on. That night at the vets office, they did x-rays and said there was no visible foreign object but there was lots of gas and thickening of his small intestines associated with inflammation. Our vet then referred us to a specialist, Internal Medicine doctor. Ultrasound was done, which pretty much revealed the same as the x-ray. From this point on, he just got worse. He was put on so many medications, had every blood test done, and everything pointed toward Inflammartory Bowel Disease.

THE BIG PROBLEM: Koji is eating, however, due to whatever is going on in his small intstines, is NOT ALLOWING ANY NUTRIENTS to be absorbed in his body. Hence the continued weight loss. Last week alone he lost 3 pounds within 4 days. He went from 81lbs and is now down to 74lbs. So I’m sure as your reading this, you can see our desperation and dilemma. NOTHING is working. His new vet, who did the NutriScan food sensitivity test and is currently treating Koji, is as baffled as we are. No matter what we feed him, no matter waht supplements we have given him or how often he eats, his body is just not absorbing any nutrients. We tried the Holistic approach along with Western Medicine and NO SUCCESS. Trust me when I say this, we have exhausted every non surgical option to help our boy. I am his voice and his advocate and no matter the cost, we are not giving up on him. I have called so many specialist BEGGING to have a new set of eyes review his medical records and NOT ONE specialist was willing to review them without paying $180.00 and having to bring Koji in for an appointment. I work in the medical field and peer case reviews are done all the time. Why in the hell can’t a group of specialist do the same.

So this is where we are….our baby is in pain, has no life in him, no excitement, no mommy kisses or cuddles. He doesn’t want to be bothered. My husband and I knew the steriods would make him feel like this and we told ourselves we have to suck it up seeing him like this and pray for a damn miracle that the steriods kick in internally and we see progress. Sadly, nothing has changed except him getting skinnier. On the positive, we had his protein levels checkedthis past Tuesday and they are perfect. Meaning he is not in immediate life threathening danger. Meaning we have a little more time to give the steriods a good 2 weeks of waiting and see what happens. There is no worse heart ripping pain than seeing him suffer like this. So as you can imagine, as much as we truly DO NOT want him going through open abdominal surgery, we have no other choice. It’s a major surgery and not one to be taken lightly. The risks associated with this surgery are very high and we could very well loose him. But in our hearts, we feel we are slowly loosing him now. So what’s a parent to do? Risk the surgery and know we will get an exact diagnosis, or do nothing and we end up having to cross him over the rainbow bridge? It’s tuff ya’ll. A very crappy situation to be in. For all we know, and the IM doctor said herself, he could have a piece of plastic or some small object in his intestine that she wasn’t able to see on ultrasound. I can go on and on but in the end, nothing we are doing is working and he isn’t getting any better and I just want a miracle and want my baby back! 🙁

I would like to post his picture so you all can see my beautiful boy but I don’t know how to upload a picture on here as my profile picture.

[Shawna]

Hmmmmm? Creatinine is only a little high… Something doesn’t jive here. I’m sure there are exceptions to the rules but creatinine is a better indication of how well the kidneys are actually functioning (from everything I’ve ever read). Maybe newer data is suggesting different but data on this site, veterinary medicine dvm360, published in 2011 still agrees “A serum creatinine concentration is the most commonly used measure of severity of renal dysfunction and is the basis for staging chronic kidney disease (CKD) (Table 1). To optimize accurate staging of CKD, serum creatinine concentrations should be evaluated on two or more occasions when the patient is well-hydrated.” http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/laboratory-evaluation-kidney-disease?rel=canonical

Based on a BUN of 77 and a creatinine of 1.6, I personally wouldn’t do low protein but rather moderate amounts of “high quality” protein.

Does your girl have large amounts of very dilute urine? Was there any protein in the urine? Was any other tests done? Is there any other medical conditions? Did you get a second opinion? She doesn’t want to eat often but you said this is just her normal. Does she have any other symptoms such as vomiting, depression etc?

This may help… My Audrey was diagnosed when she was just 13 months old but had symptoms when she was just 6 weeks old. Within the first year of diagnosis I made dietary changes and then had her blood work done every three months. On December 18, 2007 (the second blood work done after the dietary changes) her BUN was 77 (6 to 25 normal) and her creatinine was 1.9 (0.5 to 1.6 are normal ranges for this lab). Audrey didn’t eat a lower protein diet for another almost 7 years.

They also now know that senior dogs actually require MORE protein than adult dogs because they are less efficient at digesting it. Even toy breed dogs – I had a 4 pound Chihuahua live to age 19 eating a HIGH protein diet.

Please take some time to read the articles on this website. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

Okay……..YES – I would highly recommend starting her on Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It’s pricey up front but will last a long time for a four pound little girl. I’ve never used Five Leaf but others I’ve directly talked to felt it helped. The Primal Defense and Acacia Fiber will help lower BUN. I personally would look at feeding foods with higher quality and amounts of protein and getting rid of the cream of wheat and gravy. See if you can find canned tripe — a brand that is just tripe. There is one out with quinoa but I’m not sure how much phosphorus is in quinoa so not sure it is suitable? It may be, I just don’t know. Tripe itself is higher in protein with moderate amounts of phosphorus. Most dogs really really like it too. You can continue the goat milk (best if it’s raw in my opinion). Eggs are a good option but the yolk is higher in phosphorus so, recommendations vary depending on stage of the disease, you might want to feed more cooked whites then whole eggs (maybe a one to one ratio – one whole egg with one white only). I would also suggest against feeding homemade as it is really important to get the phosphorus to calcium ratios correct and to limit phosphorus to appropriate amounts for the stage of the disease (which is early stage based on the numbers you mentioned—unless your lab normals are way different than mine?). There are recipes online if you want to home prepare. Dr. Meg Smart has a recipe – you would want the one for “early to moderate stage” http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2013/02/home-made-diets-and-renal-disese-in.html

There’s lots more you can do but you mentioned you have a budget so start with these and then if there’s more for other things you can add on as able–such as herbs that can be helpful.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Shawna.

[Coonhound Mama]

Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw is expensive stuff at 5 dollars per can, but it’s really excellent quality. You can read reviews of it on here and most all are 5 stars with the exception of just a few that are 4.5 stars. I’d definitely look into it if you can afford it, as the ingredient list is clean and simple and most lines offer a single protein source per can.

[Jenn H]

Ah puppies & diarrhea. There’s a million causes.
Given that he’s been having to adjust to new environments in his short life I’m going to keep my fingers crossed that it’s just stress/excitement.
To help him symptomatically make sure the rice you give him is white rice. Brown can be more difficult to digest. When you make the rice save the water it’s boiled in and pour it over food and/or give it to drink.
Pumpkin is a great help in relieving diarrhea. 1 tsp/10 #s.
I have also had great luck with probiotics. An easy 1 to get a hold of is Nutri-vet Food Transition. It’s at Petco & comes in packets or tabs. It’s not expensive. Works great.
Then there’s my all time favorite thing and that’s raw goat milk.
When giving probios or goat milk wait 2 hrs before or 4 hrs after meals if on an antibiotic.
If you think he has a chicken allergy you can try giving him organic ground beef w/ the least amt of fat you can get. Boil it like you would the chicken.
I usually get i/d cans when my dogs need to be on a bland diet. It’s a prescription food. But it makes me feel better to add the rice, chicken/beef to supplement the food because then I know it’s balanced. This is obviously a diet that isn’t meant to be fed for too long. Especially with a growing pup.
Ask the vet to hold off on vaccines until his immune system isn’t busy fighting something else or he’s less stressed. Also I personally prefer to spread out vaccines at least 2 wks apart. I don’t do combos. (Except the parvo. It only comes that way.) It’s easier on the immune system and if there’s a reaction I can know which was the cause. And I only do the core vaxx. Understand that I am not an anti-vaxxer. Just not an over-vaxxer. It took me 30+ yrs of raising dogs and other animals to figure out that they don’t need a lot of the stuff we shoot them up with. And the difference between vaccinating and immunization. And what the shots do when an animal isn’t in optimal health at the time they receive them.
Sometimes dogs lick their paws because they have a fungus. That’s not always a sign of allergies. So if eliminating chicken doesn’t help, try looking into that.
Good luck with your new puppy. Congratulations!

[Susan]

Hi Ruth, some dogs can’t eat boiled rice, it irritates their bowel, when I rescued my boy 3 years ago, first he was weeing blood, so he was put on the Royal Canine Vet Diet S/O Urinary kibble & wet tin after 6 weeks his crystal had all dissolved & vet said stop feeding the Royal Canine Vet diet & feed a healthy diet, Patch started having diarrhea on & off, I couldn’t work out what was wrong, he’d do poos with Jelly, then poo’s with blood, then diarrhea, then normal poos, but when he was eating the Royal Canine Vet diet S/O his poos were fine, later we realised there was no rice in the wet tin S/O then finally vet realised it was the boiled rice & he had food sensitivities….we thought chicken also but he eats chicken now…
Try feeding boiled potatoes instead of the boiled rice & see if poos are better…. Patch also didn’t like kibble in the beginning, so I started using his kibble as treats….
Read the ingredients on the wet tin foods & don’t get any that have rice & see how he does…also some wet tin foods will say Lamb & when you read the ingredients it will have poultry by-products as well & only a little bit of lamb…

[C4D]

Hi Shawna,

Yes, you did give me some food for thought and more research! 🙂

I did go back and read that portion of the article again. She did say that it didn’t work for her dog. I did find articles stating that famotidine can cause inappetance in some. In my case it seemed to help and I used it on an “as needed” basis. We are going back over 4+ years when I was doing the initial research. My vet recommended the famotidine (when we were in the later stage) and I found it on many sites as well the dogaware site. I was using almost every natural supplement recommended on the dogaware site as well as both mirtazapine and b complex vitamins, alternately, to help increase appetite in the later stage. They did seem to work. This is another one of the dogaware links that include the use of famotidine:

http://dogaware.com/health/kidneynattie.html

I understand your point that it might only be masking the sypmtoms, but in the case of CKD in an older dog, I think it might be helpful, particularly if there would be nothing done otherwise. I’m aware of the peppermint oil and ginger extracts and agree that this is quite helpful. I did find that apple cider vinegar can be used, but it seems to have mixed results, depending on the problem, on some sites such as livestrong. I found that sodium bicarbonate could be added to the Sub-Q fluids to combat the acidosis, but this was on a more traditional kidney site (the merck manual).

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/urinary_system/noninfectious_diseases_of_the_urinary_system_in_small_animals/renal_dysfunction_in_small_animals.html

Since in the traditional sites they are mentioning the metabolic acidosis as part of the kidney problem, are they the holistic vets disagreeing with this? I understand your point that indigestion, not necessarily related to kidney disease, can be related to insufficient acid production.

On another note, what do you think of the OP’s recent question regarding giving liver and kidney a few times a week?

[C4D]

Hi dan g,

I don’t know what you googled, but here are a variety of links that are backed by research studies.

Here’s a link that’s fairly easy to read. This was a study that was in a Purina nutrition forum that found that even dogs with renal failure actually had a higher mortality rate on the low protein diet:

http://www.dogaware.com/files/bovee.pdf

A lot of people like Purina’s research:

https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/media/1132/senior-pet-food-protein-facts.pdf

Eating dehydrated food their whole life, leaving them in a constant state of slight dehydration and dental disease are more likely causes of kidney failure.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/kibble-never-a-good-option/

http://www.avdc.org/periodontaldisease.html

http://veterinaryteam.dvm360.com/how-periodontal-disease-can-affect-pets-organs?rel=canonical

http://www.iris-kidney.com/education/risk_factors.aspx

[Shawna]

Hi C4D,

“Mine was adamant about using the Sub-Q’s and giving famotadine (Pepcid AC) to help with the metabolic acidosis that is a part of kidney disease. That’s the reason he doesn’t want to eat.”

You’ve mentioned this a few times and I was hoping you would allow me to give a different point of view? First though, I DEFINITELY agree with the Sub-Q fluids. Fluids are started when BUN and creatinin get to a certain level usually. This is, in part, to help flush toxins from the blood (hence why they wait for a build up of those toxins). Flushing those toxins out helps pup feel better and is often the only cause of inappetence.

I wanted to talk more about Pepcid AC. I think the first thing is that these types of drugs don’t actually help with “systemic” acidosis. They are designed to control the amount of acid in the gut only – not in the whole body. However, the doctors that I follow feel that indigestion etc is caused by too little acid production. This makes sense to me when you think about how food is digested. When we eat protein our gut makes hydrochloric acid in response to the amount of protein in that food. It does this because it then activates the enzyme pepsin in the stomach that helps to digest protein. Not enough acid and the protein sits in the tummy not getting digested — this causes symptoms. YES, antacids do work but they don’t resolve the issue but rather hide the symptoms. You are still not digesting your proteins and NOW, due to the antacid, you are digesting even less protein (while potentially on an already low protein diet). It’s no wonder our dogs and cats don’t live long with KD. 🙁

Yes, when ulcers are present there are definitely considerations that need to be made. That said, ulcers are caused by Helicobacter pylori bacteria. Newer thinking believes that dietary sensitivities (which we now know can be activated by bacteria) strip the lining of our gastrointestinal tract and set the gut up FOR the bacterial infection and symptoms – aka ulcer. Avoiding the trigger, when possible, is a far better way of dealing with a symptom than simply medicating the symptom.

You had mentioned Dogaware as a reference for the use of pepcid with inappetence but Mary actually states that it was the pepcid that was “causing” her Shar Pei to have inappetence. She writes “WARNING: I had my dog on Pepcid for over a year when I discovered it was contributing to her inappetence. Once I stopped giving it, her appetite improved immediately.”

A few times a year, the last few years at least, I could tell that my Audrey was having some gut issues after eating. I resolved her discomfort by mixing apple cider vinegar 50/50 with water and forcing it down via syringe. With in a few to five minutes she would belch and then be fine. Other great options for inappetence that don’t have protein digesting side effects would be peppermint essential oil and ginger extract. Actually, just yesterday I watched a video on Dr. Melissa Shelton’s Facebook page — she’s treating a kitten that was failing to thrive. She offered kitty food and kitty sniffed but wouldn’t take it. She picked kitty up and dropped 5 to 6 drops of Kitty Boost (an essential oil she formulated specifically for cats) on his back and then rubbed it in. While rubbing it in she said that it had the oils from GI Goe (her blend for tummy issues) in it. She spent a minute or two rubbing the oil in the kitties fur, set the kitten down and continued talking. The kitten immediately went over to the food bowl and started eating. It was pretty amazing how quickly it worked.

Anyway, sorry this was soooo long. Hope there was some food for thought there. 🙂

[enny]

Research Brothers dog food. They don’t have white potatoes. I was using it for my dogs arthritis problem. Somewhere I read that a Ft Lauderdale? canine unit cured their dogs allergies with this food. It comes from a Florida pet store and they UPS it to you if you don’t live nearby. I now use Earthborn Holistics which doesn’t use white potatoes in its Great Plains Feast (bison meat). Good Luck!

[C4D]

Hi dan g,

You said “With the insurgence of grain free (more protein) foods also comes an increase of kidney failure at vets. So far, they still debate the cause as high protein or phospherus.” Could you please link where you got this information from.
As far as any studies I’ve read there is no link between high protein and kidney failure. Putting a healthy dog on a low protein diet to avoid kidney failure is very old,
outdated information.
Phosphorus, not protein needs to be bound and/or only when kidneys are failing, and not necessarily in the beginning stages. Grain free does not necessarily equate to high protein. BTW, Merrick canned classics are all grain free, they have been for a while now. I’ve fed them for years. I also have had a CRF dog, so I had to learn a lot about it.

[Pamela D]

In response to the many cat owners who are searching for a good website that discusses feline nutrition let me make the recommendation of catinfo.org that website is excellent. Having worked at an all cat hospital for nearly 8 years, I can tell you that is the website our feline vets as well as feline veterinarians from other feline exclusive hospitals recommended to clients. When searching for a good cat food it is important to pay attention to carbohydrates most dry foods are loaded with carbs which cats are not able to process like humans and dogs and other species. The website mentioned above has two great articles one on feline nutrition: The basics, and another one which is titled the carnivore connection. Anyone who is concerned about their cats diet should read both articles thoroughly. You will learn why it is so very important to put your cat on wet food and there is an article that will help you to transition your cat to wet food. I had three dry food junkies and managed to successfully transition all three of them over to wet food it took me a few monthsbut I finally did it. Again that website is Catinfo.org let me add that your not so best can food is more than likely much better than your most expensive premium dry food. One more thing, try to stay away from fish and beef and stick with anything that has feathers as in poultry. Some cats cannot tolerate fish and beef and will vomit. Also for those of you with hyper–T cats, Make sure your vet is closely monitoring your cats renal function. Sometimes hyperthyroidism will mask renal disease, and try to find a vet that will check your cats blood pressure as well.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Pamela D.

[Coonhound Mama]

Hi InkedMarie,

Thanks for your response and congratulations on the new puppy! I am located in Old Orchard Beach, Maine. Just moved here a year ago so I’m trying to find some places nearby that will be cost effective. Thanks for sharing your advice regarding Reel Raw. I have read some other reviews that have noted the noticeably higher fat percentage, so I think for now we will stick with Hare Today. Our pup is a 5 year old shelter dog whom we’ve only had for three months, so for right now we are still doing a slow transition to raw. She’s been kibble fed her whole life! We’ve started out on the bone, organ and meat grinds which seems to be going very well. If I can muster up enough courage to start her on some edible bones (other than recreational bones) I will certainly take your advice and try the beef rib bones!

[Jenn H]

The common factors of those cases were all dogs were fed Fromm and many acquired a bacteria. That’s more than a coincidence to me. The fact that not all dogs got/get sick from that brand could be for a variety of reasons: individual dog has enough of good bacteria to not be affected, size of dog, certain probios it may be given, general health, recent antibiotic treatment, hospitalization…
While there are too many unknowns to blame the food, the coincidences are enough for me to avoid it for now. I have an adult GSD that has been thru 2 tx of a/b for Lyme and a puppy. I feel their immune systems are not strong/developed enough to take on a stubborn bacterium like C.diff.
I certainly can’t completely protect them from the bacterium short of putting them in a bubble, I can avoid potential/suspected things that may have spores.
C.diff can be anywhere. It’s passed on from feces and easily spread to surfaces, objects and food if the infected person doesn’t wash their hands. It’s also in soil, air, water, food (especially meat). The spores can survive weeks to months.
For now anyway I am going to choose another food for their rotation and continue with the raw goat milk in order to hopefully continue to arm them with plenty of good bacteria and build strong immune systems.
I may eventually feed them Fromm in the future, but I cannot take any risks like that right now.

If the company isn’t aware of these cases I wouldn’t expect them to recall anything. I’m not sure how many of the complainants and vets notified them. That’s a disservice to Fromm. I’m sure they would want to know and investigate. Not having this info doesn’t give them an opportunity to remedy any problems that may exist or rebut the claims. This leaves consumers like me who can’t have dogs that can’t afford an infection to steer clear just in case.
Communication is key to keep everyone in the know, honest, accountable, protected and help them improve a product. It doesn’t do much good overall to leave a bad review on a site, but not tell the source about their issues.

[Shawna]

Hi Courtney,

So sorry, I just now saw your reply to me!!

Yes, I believe Dori is quite satisfied with the support and dietary advice she received from Dr. Wynn. Dori is a raw feeder and feeds pre-made complete and balanced diets so I’m not exactly sure what involvement Dr. Wynn had. Maybe just consult versus diet formulation? I can ask Dori to comment.

A nutritionist, whether credentialed or not, holds no value to me if they don’t have a deeper understanding of how “healthy foods” (like canola oil) 🙂 can be damaging. I want someone willing to think outside the box versus someone to just spout out recipes that simply meet all the nutrient requirements. I’m not sure all the people I listed can do that but I have more faith in them then some others I’ve seen (especially Drs. Becker and Royal). The problem with this is that you might have to spend more on more supplements but, in my opinion, in the long run it pays off with better health. An example if needing canola for it’s Linoleic acid — hemp seed oil would be an alternative having 54 to 57% LA (Dr. Becker recommends hemp seed in her recipe book when feeding a beef diet). Another option, and my personal choice, would be pumpkin seed oil. It contains approximately 64% LA. In addition to that it is high in vitamin E and in chlorophyll which is quite health promoting. It’s likely that a source of Omega 3 would need to be added in higher amounts with these two than with canola but that is definitely doable for most.

There are nutritionists that can formulate a complete and balanced diet and then their are folks that can formulate a complete and balanced diet while doing so with foods that not only meet nutritional needs but also promote optimal health. But I’m sure you understand that as you are trying to get a more personalized, healthier diet. 🙂

I think this article written by a human dietitian explains the problem quite well
“A DIETITIAN’S TRAINING AND ROUTINE

Providing Medical Nutrition Therapy in a nursing home requires credentials as a registered dietitian with the American Dietetic Association’s (ADA) Commission on Dietetic Registration. Training is extensive. In most cases it requires a bachelor’s degree from an accredited college, an internship of nine months to a year working within a clinical setting, and passing a comprehensive exam.

During my clinical training as a dietitian, I was not taught holistic nutrition principles. I did not learn the benefits of herbs, or of the importance of whole foods, probiotics, enzymes, or organically grown foods to good health. I did not learn to use vitamin and mineral supplementation to overcome illness or disease. I did not understand that poor nutrition is probably the cause of most disease and poor health conditions in the first place. I had no idea that we require cholesterol and saturated fat to be well. I did not learn that the nutritional value of grass-fed beef was superior to grain-fed beef, or of the importance of iodine coupled with the avoidance of bromine for proper thyroid function, and so on.

I was taught we should eat less fat and more grain products. I was led to believe that pharmaceutical therapy was necessary and that nutrition made little or no impact in treating an already established condition. My continuing education hours were offered free by the pharmaceutical industry. During these classes I was taught about their “new and improved” Ensure and other products they were promoting.” – See more at: http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/health-issues/a-dietitians-experience-in-the-nursing-home/#sthash.SWFcZ0Bo.dpuf

It’s often more about what you know than what (or even where) you were taught.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by Shawna.

[aimee]

Hi Dawn,

So sorry to hear that your dog recently needed surgery for stones. Were the stones really in the kidneys or were they in the bladder?

From what I’ve read preventing recurrence is difficult. The vet diets have some backing behind them regarding establishing parameters to prevent formation where as a lot of this type of information isn’t available for foods you’d purchase on your own.

If faced with this situation I’d be devoting a lot of my time on monitoring what is coming out of my dog in addition to what is going in. It seems all are in agreement that “dilution is the solution to pollution” in other words water water and more water. I’d want my dog consuming a lot of water which means moist food or if feeding dry I’d be adding a lot of water to it. But again what is most important is what is coming out. To that end I’d buy myself a refractometer so I could catch urine and monitor the concentration at home. I’d also invest in a pH meter to monitor that aspect as well. Having your vet spin down a fresh ie still “warm from the dog” sample and then looking for crystals is another piece of information.

Frequent rechecks and x ray screening can identify reformation when the stones are still small and then may be able to be recovered without surgery.

If you don’t want to use the vet food there are home cooking options through balance it dot com and you could ask your vet what to look for in a store bought food. I’d think you’d want to avoid high oxalate ingredients, and use a food whose calcium level is close to AAFCO minimum( 0.6% DM) That can be a bit tricky as companies may not monitor this closely hence the vet diets. Vit D levels should be controlled as well. Vit C is metabolized to oxalate so avoid that. Protein amount is tricky it may depend on the amino acid profile as I think certain amino acids are metabolized to oxalate. You will likely need to call the company of any food you are considering and ask what is the average urine pH the diet produces and get a nutrient profile. Larger companies are more likely to have the information and type of quality control you’d need over small companies.

Best of Luck

[C4D]

Hi Courtney H,

I haven’t had to work with a nutritionist of any kind, but I would be wary of independent pet nutritionists. They can get “certification” from home study programs under $1000 for a very short period of study. I would personally only feel comfortable with one who had a veterinary degree with certification in nutrition as opposed to simply a “certified” nutritionist. Here’s an example:

http://www.anhs-school.com/pet-nutrition.html

Hi Aimee,

Shawna didn’t say she was a ACVN certified nutritionist. Meg Smart may not be on the ACVN board certified list, but she was the first to teach small animal nutrition in North America, so she must have some decent credentials. Since she is Canadian and got her DVM and PHD from Canadian Universities, it seems logical that she would not necessarily be credentialed in an American College of Nutrition. Another thought on this is that ACVN was founded in 1988 and she was already an established vet and teaching nutrition in Vet schools in 1994, so it may not have been necessary. Just my random thoughts. Link:

https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/wcvm_people/profiles/Smart_Marion%20Meg.php

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by C4D.

[M M]

@Olga, thank you for your detailed response! I already pressure cook big pots of beans and eat lots of vegetables so it should be pretty simple for me to get in the habit of putting the rest of it together in a big batch as you do. I will try the lentils, too! I already have most of these ingredients although most of the supplements (especially the Nupro, Green Mush, and DE) are new to me.

I agree that eating the carcass of a factory-farmed animal is not healthy. I also do not think processed food is healthy. I am a long-time vegetarian but bought into the “dogs need meat” dogma when we adopted our girl. Our vet swears that dogs don’t need or miss the meat (as if kibble even resembles meat), which is comforting as a lot of other folks clearly think I’m a dog abuser for feeding her veg food. I know of at least 7 other dogs who have done very well with the V-dog with or without home cooked supplement.

A few more questions (and I understand if you do not have time to answer all these):

How did you figure out how much to feed and the ratio of your ingredients? I am concerned I may accidentally under- or overdose on the calorie and protein/fat content.

Do you feed any kibble at all or just the home-cooked food? If so, what kind? As I said, ours loves her kibble but words cannot express how much our dog adores her beans and greens mix.

What kind of biscuits do you feed?

What brand of digestive enzymes/probiotic/prebiotic do you like?

Do you mash the food or just let it cook down in the stew? Our dog really does not chew unless I give her something long like an apple slice or carrot stick. She has a powerful jaw but her teeth seem to meet only in one place on each side due to her strong underbite. She has some rubber toys from Westpaw which she loves to chew and tug but her breath is pretty bad if I don’t add liquid chlorphyll to at least one of her meals.

Are there any veggies you know of that are off limits due to toxicity (e.g., raisins, onions, garlic)?

Thank you again for helping us to improve our dog’s diet. I am going to start using your method this weekend and have saved your post to make sure I explore all of the ideas you gave as seasons change.

[Shawna]

Hi Ken,

I haven’t read through all the comments but I wanted to state that it could be the chicken causing the issue — a chicken sensitivity versus and allergy. Maybe the chicken itself OR what the chicken ate even (since it seems to be brand specific). I’m a raw feeder of multiple dogs (I have six of my own right now and foster) for over 10 years by the way. My Pom gets ulcerative colitis (bright red blood in diarrhea (her’s is almost liquid though)). Chicken is what sets my girl off (only the muscle meat – she is fine with eggs, liver, kidneys etc).

Sensitivities can manifest after the dog (or person) has been on the food for a while. A protein in certain foods, called a lectin, can bind with the gut wall and cause disease. Initially it binds with IgA (an immune system antigen) but eventually the body is not capable of producing enough IgA to bind with the lectin and then you see symptoms. Typical allergy tests test for IgE immunoglobulins so they can’t detect food sensitivities (which are actually much more common than IgE allergies). I understand that the food he gets better on is “boiled chicken” but boiling (at least with legumes) leaches some of the lectins from the food making less for the body to have to deal with. OR possibly the boiled chicken is different than the one causing the IBD because of something the chicken ate (organic grains fed to livestock have lectins too).

Okay, that was just one thought. The other is that the raw chicken drumstick and thigh diet is not a balanced diet. I know, I know……eye rolls and oh not one of those must be balanced nuts. 🙂 hee hee But there really is something to it. Dark meat chicken is an excellent source of linoleic acid (the omega 6 fat that is necessary for health). However when LA is over-consumed and/or not consumed in balance with omega 3 fats it can be quite inflammatory. Although a good source of LA, chicken is deficient in saturated fatty acids which the body also needs. You don’t mention organs which supply other nutrients. This may or may not be a direct cause but it certainly could be an indirect cause.

Hope, whatever it is, you can get it figured out and get back to wonderful health.

[Ken Y]

I feel as if your response is a little bit of an over reaction.. I appreciate the information provided and did read through some of it, but I have done plenty of research of my own before choosing to put my dog on a raw diet. As indicated, he was perfectly fine for the first 4-5mo without incidents. Are you yourself familiar with the idea and benefits of the raw diet?

As for his condition, there’s a big difference between ‘bloody’ and ‘spots of blood’ in his stool.

“FIELD GUIDE
While normal stools can be many shades of brown, some abnormalities in color and consistency may indicate an underlying problem.

1. Streaks of bright red blood and/or mucus on the surface of a mostly normal, formed stool. This is generally caused by inflammation in the large intestine, where mucus is secreted to help protect the intestinal lining. While this does not necessarily indicate an emergency, it’s a good idea to keep a close eye out for further changes in your dog’s behavior and stool.

2. Soft-formed to liquid brown diarrhea, with or without streaks of blood. “Cow patty” and “soft-serve ice cream” are two frequent descriptors. As with the previous type, it is generally not life-threatening as long as there are no other signs of concern and it begins to improve within 24 to 48 hours. If your dog is acting normally otherwise— eating well, not vomiting, good attitude —a wait-and-see home approach may be tried (more on this to follow). Here again, red blood indicates inflammation and bleeding in the colon but does not necessarily mean that your pet is bleeding internally, as is often thought. This is a step up in concern from the previous condition, in the sense that the stool is now softer.

3. A large volume of bloody, watery, diarrhea. This one does require immediate evaluation by your veterinarian, especially with smaller dogs, as it can be an indicator of a common condition called hemorrhagic gastroenteritis, or HGE. (Read more about it here: thebark.com/hge) Tissue sloughing from the intestines gives it a distinctive appearance, and it’s often described as “raspberry jam” diarrhea.”

[Gracee Sunshine Alexiss]

I want to first apologize for my previous 2 posts as I think I should have posted them in a different part of the forum. Thank you for being patient and and answering my questions anyway. ok are breed specific brands such as royal canin any better than Blue Buffalo? and is a dry kibble better than wet? or should there be a combinatio? anyway I think she may have a skin allergy Im still investigating that. If you read my previous post you read that I gave my 8 week old a grape that she ate a pretty good part of and played with the rest for an hour or so to find out a month later to my absolute horror that they are quite toxic. I mention that as I am worried about kidney damage but have yet to make a move concerning that because of personal issues right now. She was also fed an adult type dog food not sure what kind I havent been able to contact my aunt as she is on vacation. I transitioned her the best I could to Wellness Tru Food she didnt seem to like it too much especially the little yellow pieces avoiding them completely but she is now coming close to the end of the bag and i want to gradually get her on a food that is allergen free and tasty. I feed her grilled chicken with her food every now and then and sometime for reward when training. She gets hiccups fequently but they subside quickly and doesnt seem to cause her any discomfort. Sooo taking all this into consideration….any suggestions and recommendations are greatly appreciated. I am going to ask about food from my vet but i would appreciate experienced suggestions as well. thank you to all who take the time to read my endless and frequent posts. you are greatly appreciated. thank you again,
Michelle and Gracee (my sunshine)

[Gracee Sunshine Alexiss]

Wow thank you all so very much for all your imput. I will try my best to answer all your querries. I was not on the search for a puppy but my aunts female yorkie was in heat and the neighbors male found out before anyone else. Upon finding out she was pregnant they took her to regular vet visits and she gave birth with no complications to 2 females. So my family has been trading puppies for yearz and I was the only one who hadn’t been blessed yet so I was given first choice and I chose my Gracee. Anyway yes she was fed some not so good food for a Lil bit but that by no means makes her a poop pup maybe not from a reputable breeder but a good girl otherwise. Now I do have one terrible thing to confess… After acquiring her at 8 weeks I was eating some big fat green GRAPES and it was really hot that first day and I did it I gave her a grape and yes she ate some and licked some juice. To my absolute horror about a month later I had ran across an article that said grapes and raisins are extremely toxic and can cause almost immediate kidney failure. I felt so bad but figured the damage was already done and I never noticed any Wierd behavior or anything during that time. Course I wouldn’t know what to look for but being a lab tech I am taking her in this week to get her kidney functions and possibly her fasting lipids checked. Ok so yes she is on Revolution and she is due for her next dose how ever I’d like to get her on something that lasts a Lil longer. I heard tossing eucalyptus leaves and or twigs bark or branches into strategic places can eliminate most fleas is this true? And as far as I know her parents don’t have mange of any kind. she was treated for round, pin, whip, and one other kind and then I had to get a specific treatment for the tape ickees and got rid of them they seemed to be the worst and drove my baby nuts keeping her up all night… stupid things. I check her every night for re infestation but so far so good. And no bloating is apparent. I do think a fecal sample and skin scraping will also be done on our next visit. Even though worms may not be present there ovas may be which means new hatchlings. I apologize for not answering every question asked but wanted to keep this post a Lil shorter. I will reread the correspondences again and try to give the info asked for. Thank you all so much for caring about my baby. I’m so greatful to have found this forum. Oh wait so she is due for her 3rd and last vaccination so I should hold off on this last one to make sure it’s not related to her itchyness? I think her itchyness for the most part is from using human shampoo and water that was too warm and bathing her too much I started at 8 weeks and bathed her almost once a week I was told that was excessive and hind site usually being 20/20 I agree. I was also wondering if the 1rst 2nd and 3rd vaccines are the same and if not whats the difference? and is she gonna get her rabies this time? and is it possible for me to purchase the vaccine myself and give it to her myself? oh and I took her for a walk (in my arms) I forgot we have a couple flocks of wild turkeys that walk through the neighborhood and next door had homing pigeons that still stick around and nest we also have owls hawks turkey vultures skunks racoons possums and they all leave droppings is this an extra problem that she might need a different vaccine for possibly? the lepto vaccine? and next year she will be camping with us in the Stanislau National Forest where there are bears and deer. I might as well throw this in as well I have access to fresh venison pretty much the whole deer season is this good for my growing yorkie? if so how much and how often and how should I serve it to her? and can she eat the bones? horns? hoofs? is there anyother part of the animal that may or may not be good for her. thank you all so much for all your valuable information.
respectfully,
Michelle and Gracee (my sunshine)

[Fiona Z]

I had my black lab on this for a month. She is 7 and in great shape. I thought it was a good idea and she was already on pro plan. I thought I noticed a difference in her energy levels and thought she was more alert. Precious lazy lab! Then after two weeks unbearable scratching and horrendous gas!two weeks of it and took her to the vet he said she was allergic to something and have her different antihistamine (I’d tried Zyrtec and Benedryl and it usually works) anyway long story shorter… She was better within the day and no gas! I went on the forum and read all about the ingredients and changed her food to a Blue brand basics. I didn’t like how we eat whole foods and I had her eating this long list! So my question for you guys is what can I add to her food myself? That would mimic the bright minds idea?
Sorry if there are typos I’m on my phone and the screen isn’t letting me edit. Thanks Fiona!

[anonymously]

In response to: “I am sold on any of this just like human docs I believe they too get kick backs on stuff they sell”.

Excerpt from: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2015/08/veterinary-medicine-is-a-business-and-that-includes-alternative-medicine/
“The bottom line is that financial bias is a real issue in veterinary medicine at all levels, and it has to be investigated and managed. However, this is not the same as saying there is widespread fraud or a sinister conspiracy involving vets and companies that do business with them. There is no reason to believe that the majority of vets are doing anything other than the best they can to help their patients and clients. And there is absolutely no reason to believe vets offering alternative therapies are any less subject to financial bias or any purer in their motivation or behavior than vets practices science-based medicine”.

[Susan]

Hi Samantha, go shops, buy some chicken breast or lean turkey breast mince lightly cook till its just cooked cause the chicken breast can go tuff if over cooked then cut up, I also add a bit of boiled sweet potatoes not much take to the vets & ask can this be feed instead of the vet diet, cause she isn’t eating…. the Hills I/D Gastro is still high in fat at 14% if its the Hills I/D Gastro the pink label there’s the Hills I/d Low Fat GI Restore & the fat is lower 8.5% find out which one she is eating… if your on Face Book join this group “Canine Pancreatitis Support Group” these ladies will help you & your baby, what to ask vet, what are good low fat foods, no more kibble, as kibble is harder to digest she will need wet tin foods or cooked meals all low in fat also the fat on wet tin foods are higher then what the fat is on a bag of kibble, if the wet tin food says 5% fat on a tin, when converted to kibble fat that’s around 22% fat dry matter (Kibble)….
Hills Vet Diets convert all their Vet Diets they have already been done, but all the other vet diets aren’t convert or the pet shop foods…. so be careful & remember if you see 5% fat on a tin, its high you need 3%max fat & under in wet tin foods.. there’s the Royal Canine Low Fat Intestinal she may eat that one… the fat is only 7% fat …..also visit her & take her brother, it will boost her spirits ….Good Luck

[Samantha P]

My 1 ½ year old toy poodle/mi-pin (5 lbs) began vomiting 11 days ago on a Friday. The following day, Saturday, we took her to the vet. He thought she may have an upset stomach and dehydrated so he gave her sub-q fluids and sent her home on meds to ease her tummy troubles (Rantidine?) By Monday, she still wasn’t herself, and the vomiting continued. She wasn’t eating or drinking much at all, so I brought her back to the vet. The kept her all day Monday, continued with the fluids and then sent her back home with us Monday night. The vomiting stopped, but she still wasn’t improving in regards to eating/drinking. I brought her back to the vet Friday (a week after our first visit) and they did blood work. It turns out she has pancreatitis, unsure if she had it the entire time or if it was caused by the upset stomach issue. They began an IV for fluids on Friday – it is now Tuesday and she is still there. She got her appetite back on Sunday and ate the wet dog food (Hills ID) and she ate again yesterday morning. Since she was eating again, they removed the IV and by afternoon she was refusing food. She vomited 3 times overnight and now the vet as well as us are getting extremely concerned (as if I wasn’t already) I just need to hear that she will be okay… I can’t stop worrying, crying and I am absolutely sick over all of this. We have no idea what could have caused it, we feed her TOTW normally and she loved it, this all happened out of nowhere and going on 11 days of this, 5 being in the vets care, I am trying to continue to keep my hope but it’s slowly dwindling. I have no idea what I would do without her, she’s my baby and her brother (Morkie) misses her so much…. Our house just isn’t the same and we are ready to get her back home. Anyone have experiences? Stories that may help us get through this? Advice? I am all ears…

[Susan]

Hi, teach your pup “No leave It” within 1-2 weeks he will know its wrong to eat anything off the ground…..
Place a kibble or food under the front of your shoe, the toe, let your dog smell the kibble then say “No leave It” then when he has left the food or kibble that’s under your foot & sits, then you give him a kibble or a small treat but not the kibble that’s under your foot, then when he leaves the food/kibble under your foot, you start leaving a bit of food or kibble on the floor, watch him & see what he does, if he goes to eat it or leaves it, if he goes to eat it, say “No Leave It” but make sure there’s enough time that he doesn’t get it & eat it, then if he sits & leaves it then give him a treat or kibble for leaving the food that’s on the floor & say “Good Boy”…..Make sure you talk to your dog, like he’s a human, then he will understand words & what right & what’s wrong…..

There’s no magic pill, you need to train your dog, maybe increase his feed as well, he may be hungry…..
I found out, I was under feeding my boy, the vet we were seeing said to feed 2 cups a day, I read the kibble bag & he should of been eating 3 cups of that kibble a day, being a high energy dog.. 3 years later & Patch doesn’t even look at poo & if there’s any food on the ground, he just keeps walking & I tell him “your a very very good boy Patch” & I can see how proud he is of himself, then I tell him, when we get home, I’m going to give you a big biscuit..

[Ptcbass]

Wow, I went to lunch and come back to lots of great info. Yes Shawna I also believe food is medicine. I went 2 years without healthcare and have successfully treated health issues with health food and supplements (Ginger, turmeric, cinnamon and ginseng).

Anonymously – The prednisone come weeks before and then tiny stones were present (small enough to pass). Then she was on the prescription food for one week and developed acute pancreatitis. That is what killed her. The prednisone I am sure didn’t help her immune system and have read it can cause stones and isn’t good for the pancreas. Just a horrible situation all the way around and especially knowing that if I didn’t take her to the vet at all and just kept treating her myself with “healthy” stuff then she would more than likely still be with me today.

My other dog is a little over weight and gains easily. She is 9 years old, has a history of crystals and UTI’s and has a short nose and has trouble breathing sometimes so I can’t exercise her like I would like to. She is still otherwise healthy and still likes to play (what time she isn’t eating or sleeping LOL!).

I am looking into
Horizon Amicus Small & Mini Breed Senior & Weight Management Grain-Free Dry Dog Food and Annamaet Grain-Free Lean Low Fat Formula Dry Dog Food.

I like the Natures Logic but it isn’t grain free and has higher fat content (except for the fish). The calories are still ok thought which I really don’t get but have moved on.

Thanks again! This has been super hard and have never had to experience anything like this with any of my dogs in the past. Also, in the same week my mother in law had a stroke. Now I just want to help get her healthy and do what I can for my other furbaby.
Thanks for the support here!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Ptcbass.

[Susan]

Hi, I live in Australia so we have different brands, my boy has IBD Colitis (food sensitivities)every time I give Patch a probiotic he feels sick, I’ve read there’s a die off period, just keep taking the probiotics but I stopped I couldn’t handle watching Patch feel sick licking & licking his mouth & eating grass, so a lady at the pet shop said give him Papaya (Paw Paw) so I mashed up 1/2 a Papaya & put the mashed papaya in ice cube & froze, I was giving Patch 1 thawed ice cube of the papaya about 10.30am after our walked he loved it, at first I thought Patch was OK but again he started his mouth licking & eating grass…
I found a good dog probiotic had to be stored in the fridge or kept under 25 degrees so the heat doesn’t kill the live bacteria…also Tripe, tripe is excellent, Patch tried the K-9Natural Lamb Green Tripe was really good… K-9 Natural has their Raw frozen or their freeze dried Green Lamb Tripe, the smell was OK not as bad as I thought it would be…..Patch loved it but it made him feel sick….

My vet said she went to a seminar & the lady said they tested 10 popular dog probiotics & only 3 had live cultures Purina Fortiflora was suppose to be good, she didn’t mention the probiotics that weren’t good my vet said, I said if Patch doesn’t feel sick then its no good…

I joined a group on Face Book called “Fast Track Diet” (Official Group) run by Dr Norm Robillard he’s specializes in IBS SIBO Leaky Gut Acid Reflux etc
& has written a book called “Fast Tract Digestion” its for humans but I’d say a dog would have similar bowel & stomach problems with certain foods, he said it’s best to take probiotics on an empty stomach when your Hydrochloric Acid is low, either first thing in the morning or night just before bed & not with food….

I found this link what each strain of bacteria is for & what it helps Lactobacillus GG (L.rhamnosus) protects against respiratory illness, treats candida, colitis and diarhea, reduces stress and anxiety.. http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/how-to-choose-good-probiotic-supplement.html

[InkedMarie]

I dislike it when veterinarians tell me that what they sell is a good food yet cannot tell me why. Red, if you want to not bother reading ingredients due to a possible headache, have at it. I have typed up a few other sentences but deleted them but will say to people needing help: ingredients are important. There are reputable dog food companies out there; ask them. Find ones you trust. I personally would ignore people who don’t read them & “parrot” what SkeptVet says. JMO.

[Angeldogs]

I have found a high quality kibble that everyone can eat here. I have ten allergic dogs with a list of 15 allergens. Please keep in mind that all of our dogs have been allergy tested which makes things easier.

Dr. E’s buffalo limited ingredient potato and grain free kibble.

They are all doing very well on it. Have switched treats to Dr. Woofers vegie biscuits. They can also have the spaghetti and meatball flavor.

Don’t forget to read labels carefully on treat bags too!

Hope that’s of help to someone’s pup!

[C4D]

Hi Judith B,

I cook for my dogs frequently, but it’s always fresh, not canned, meat with a few organic veggies, generally carrots, celery and fresh parsley, sometimes broccoli or squash, depending on what I have in the garden or is on sale, NO SALT. I add this to a premix, like The Honest Kitchen, Sojos, or Grandma Lucy’s, which has the vitamins added. I also feed my dog’s a regular diet of commercial kibble, canned or raw that are complete and balanced.

I appreciate that you want to provide some healthy fresh cooked food for your dogs, but, IMHO, I don’t think you should be adding canned soup and broth. There’s a lot of sodium in those and dogs (or people) don’t need that much sodium. Regular Swanson a whole can has about 50% of the normal human daily intake. Tomato soup is also high in sodium, I just linked Campbell’s, but I’m an avid label reader and they all tend to have about 33% or better per serving, which is less than 1/2 the can.

http://swanson.campbellskitchen.com/broth/beef-broth/

http://www.campbellsoup.com/Products/Condensed/All/2341

This is the nutrition data of Cheese Whiz. I didn’t know which one you use, but they are all very similar in salt content. This is for 2 tbsp, not the whole jar, which would be a lot more.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/160/2

These are not healthy products to be adding to your dog’s diet. If you want to add some broth, cook fresh meat with a bit of water and use the cooking water as the broth. I do this all the time. I even use it as stock to make soups for my family.

I truly appreciate what you are trying to do for your dogs, but if you keep it to some fresh meat and vegetables in the crock pot, your dogs will be much healthier. I would still use this as a topper to a balanced dog food to keep your animals in the best of health. The balanceIt website, Whole Dog Journal, or dogaware has some recipes to give you an idea of what a balanced meal or supplement to their diet should look like. Good Luck!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by C4D.

[aimee]

Hi Shawna,

When you wrote “Not even enough to meet the minimum protein amounts required for an a complete and balanced diet.” it could leave a reader with the impression that the diet would cause protein deficiency in the patient. Yet it will not when appropriately used.

AAFCO is an interpretation of NRC to account for the usual and common ingredients used in commercial pet food. Protein digestibility in commercial foods is usually decreased compared to fresh because of the type of protein used and the processing it underwent. AAFCO built a “cushion” into the profile to account for this. Also remember that AAFCO min is really what should be considered a recommended daily amount not the min to sustain life.

I don’t understand the choice of herbs, some of which sure seem contraindicated for a kidney patient. Can you cite the papers where they have been shown to be beneficial?

[Jack B]

I registered just to comment here because the amount of misinformation is maddening.

Dogs are omnivores.

Dogs Are Omnivores and Should be Fed as Such

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore
http://www.hillspet.com/dog-care/carnivore-or-omnivore-mature-adult-dog.html
https://www.purina.com/dogs/dog-food-nutrition/are-dogs-omnivores-or-carnivores

I thought this quote from one of the above sources was incredibly relevant to this thread:

“Somehow the notion that dogs are pure carnivores has permeated through internet chat forums, among some non-medically trained people working in the pet industry (groomers, trainers, etc.), and those that take their information seriously. This notion is based by in large on the multiply erroneous notion that dogs are essentially wolves, and since wolves are pure carnivores, then dogs necessarily should be fed as wolves would eat.

I stated multiply erroneous notion because the true fact is that EVEN WOLVES ARE NOT PURE CARNIVORES! ”

Like humans, they can thrive on either a meat based or plant based diet. What is important is the nutrition they get from either. Your “feelings” that dogs “need meat” have no basis in reality. Snap out of it.

On the other hand, for the vegans, sadly I have to correct the information about cats. Cats ARE obligate carnivores.
http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-what-exactly-is-an-qobligate-carnivoreq
http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/cats-obligate-carnivore-proceedings?rel=canonical
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat

You basically can not feed a cat a vegan diet and have it remain healthy.

Back to dogs. You would not want your precious dog to die screaming choking on its own blood, after being tortured for the entirety of its short life. These factory farming conditions are are where over 99% of all animal products in the USA come from. The fact that you bought that locally grown rainbow fluffy nice meat that one time 4 months ago at a farmer’s market doesn’t eclipse the source of all the other animal products that compose the majority of your and your dog’s other meals. The animals that your dog food is sourced from don’t want to die or live in this way either (for that matter, neither do you. Do unto others). The entire world does not revolve around you and your dog, there are more considerations to make in life beyond your own desires and preferences because the consequences of your actions have to be suffered by others.

For those who are going to jump in with “humane” meat, which is marketing bullshit (Watch Earthlings and see the conditions of “humane” slaughter), you would not want your dog to have a nice life only to be suddenly pulled up by its hind legs and have its throat slit. The animals that die “humanely” for your diet don’t want that either (and again, likely neither do you). Watch a video of captured Chechnyan soldiers having their throats slit and ask yourself if that looks like a humane way to die.

You care about animals? Your dog isn’t the only animal in the world.

Beyond all this, there is the massive environmental consideration. The animal industries are responsible for up to 51% of global GHG emissions (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/6294), and are the driving force behind deforestation, the collapse of our oceans, and global food scarcity. The easiest way to understand why is through understanding an ecological concept known as trophic levels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_level). Basically, every step up you go along the food chain, you lose 90% of the energy you put into the previous step. So for every 10 calories of crops you feed to a cow, you get 1 calorie of beef out of that cow. If you fed the crops directly to people (or to your pets), you could feed 10x the number of people (or pets) on the same amount of agricultural output.

Alongside the global hunger issues this presents, we have to consider that this means we are consuming 10x the resources to produce that 1 calorie. Ten times the amount of petroleum based fertilizers, ten times the amount of water, ten times the amount of forest and virgin land cleared to grow ten times the amount of crops, ten times the amount of pesticides which are being washed out into our rivers and oceans, etc. etc. etc.

Here’s a decent primer in the form of a Wikipedia article on the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism

For more information, watch Conspiracy. It’s a fantastic documentary that highlights the environmental consequences of our animal industries.

I know this post has grown way beyond the original scope of this thread, but the unwavering small-mindedness being displayed here was too much for me to bear. Educate yourself on these issues, they are much larger and more important than you and your dog’s taste preferences, and much larger than it seems many in this thread currently understand.

[Susan]

Hi Jan, another reason your girl is doing really well on the Hills W/d, the W/d is very high in insoluble fiber-28.1% & high in crude fiber-16.4% & lower in soluble fiber-1.3%….My boy wouldn’t do well on a high insoluble & high crude fiber diet with his IBD, he does better on less fiber, kibbles with soluble fiber……once your girl is stable & doing really well around 6-9 months, start looking for a premium kibble that is high in crude fiber & you’ll have to email the kibble company & ask what is the insoluble % & soluble fiber %, you will not find a kibble as high as the W/d, that’s why its a vet diet….
I’ve read a few post on this site & their dogs were eating the Hills W/d now their dogs are doing well on Diamond Natural light Adult, the Nuturals light has the powdered Cellulose like the Hills W/d has but lamb is the protein not chicken, I don’t know if your dog can eat lamb, my boy does good on lamb & fish….the fat is 6% & the crude fiber is 9%, I don’t know the insoluble fiber %.. there is a few ingredients in this kibble… a few tooo many to start as a first kibble, I like sticking with kibbles that have limited ingredients cause it can just be 1 little ingredient in a kibble that they are sensitive too & their colitis will start playing up again….
http://www.diamondpet.com/our-brands/diamond-naturals/light-adult-dog/

also the weight management kibbles are higher in crude fiber but I don’t know if they are higher in soluble fiber or insoluble fiber, you’d have to email the company….

Or you can do what I did in the beginning, I kept Patch on his vet diet for lunch & dinner & started to feed a cooked meal for breakfast, (I cook the chicken & boil the sweet potatoes & then froze small meals)
I knew he could eat chicken cause his vet diet was chicken & turkey, so I boiled chicken breast & boiled pumkin 1 spoon pumkin, he couldn’t eat too much pumkin it made his poos very soft, so now I cook sweet potatoes instead. I put the chicken in a blender & blend the chicken & add the boiled sweet potatoes sometimes I add some boiled broccoli, carrot, celery & papaya, that’s now not in the beginning..

I google foods to find out which veggies had more soluble fiber & insoluble fiber… foods that are high in insoluble fibers are rye, barley, brown rice….that way I started introducing foods back into his diet but he was still eating his vet diet, like an elimination diet..
I found out what foods he didn’t do to well on cause his breakfast poo would be sloppy soft or have a condom film over the poo or he’d do a jelly poo….his poo would be orange cause of the pumkin & sweet potatoes…

[Shawna]

Hi Sheila23,

Although a homemade diet is absolutely doable I would do a LOT more research before you decide on any one brand. Example — Tripe is a great food for kd dogs but it is supposedly already balanced in calcium to phosphorus. Adding a premix like Preference, that is designed to balance higher phosphorus meat, could be problematic. Although phosphorus needs to be watched, you can go too low too early in the disease.

Balance IT could be an option but I personally wouldn’t have fed my KD girl such a low protein diet (ESPECIALLY in the early stages). Based on the nutrient profile of their beef and rice early stage kd diet the protein amount is only 15.3%. That’s ridiculously low for early stage kd without any complicating issues like proteinuria. Not even enough to meet the minimum protein amounts required for an a complete and balanced diet. They also use corn oil — EEEEKK. The chicken & rice recipe is even worse at 14.9% protein.

If you can afford it, I would highly recommend looking at Darwin’s prescription KD diet formulated by vet Dr. Barbara Royal. The ingredient list is
“Human-Grade Meat: Beef Meat, Beef Tripe, Beef Pancreas, Beef Lungs, Beef Kidneys, Beef Liver, Beef Heart, Beef Spleen.

Vegetables: Cabbage, Celery, Squash, Sweet Potato, Beets, Romaine Lettuce.

Special Nutrient Mix: Filtered Water (for processing), Sardine oil (source of EPA, DPA and DHA), Egg Shell Powder, Parsley, Apple Cider Vinegar, Inulin, Cornsilk, Dandelion Root, Cinnamon, Cranberry, Linden Flowers, , Chitosan, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin E, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin D3, Aloe Vera.” http://www.darwinspet.com/our-raw-foods/our-raw-dog-food/intelligent-design-ks/

I LOVE that you are starting Alvin on Standard Process Renal Support. It is the one supplement that my Audrey NEVER did without since diagnosis. She had KD from birth (symptoms showed at just 6 weeks of age) but she wasn’t diagnosed till she was 13 months old. She was given one year to live after that. She lived to almost her ninth birthday and it was an infection that took her life not the normal progression of kidney disease.

Some other things to look at for Alvin — purified water (as much as he wants), extra water soluble vitamins if he urinates large volumes of water. A high quality probiotic and a prebiotic made with acacia fiber helps to clear BUN etc from the blood allowing for higher protein to be fed or simply helps clear BUN when necessary. This is called “nitrogen trapping”. Giving Evian (or another higher calcium, lower sodium mineral water) has been shown to be beneficial for kidney disease. I did give my Audrey fresh, raw garlic most of her life. I still believe that if I hadn’t gotten lazy and quit giving it to her near the end of her life she wouldn’t have developed the severe infection that ended up damaging her kidneys and taking her life. Enzymes to help with the digestion of his food. Certain supplements and herbs can be helpful — spirulina provides many nutrients, food grade activated charcoal given off an on in small amounts can help clear toxins, organic turmeric helps with inflammation and also helps prevent scar tissue (works best when combined with pepper or the enzyme bromelain from pineapple). Chlorella is a wonderful detoxer and it helps build red blood cells due to the high amounts of chlorphyll in it. Apple cider vinegar can help with indigestion (fed with food in small amounts or given via syringe but must be diluted first). Ginger extract and therapeutic grade peppermint oil can help with nausea (later in the illness). I also recently read that there is other therapeutic grade essential oils that can help the kidneys but I don’t remember the particulars of the article. Vet Dr. Melissa Shelton would be the person to seek out if wanting to incorporate essential oils.

I was lucky with Audrey, she was able to eat commercial raw products clear up to a few months before she passed. I’m not sure if that was because of the supplements, being fed raw from weaning or what but she did quite well. Possibly look at lower phosphorus commercial foods and then add small amounts of low phosphorus toppers (lightly cooked egg whites and coconut oil as an example) to keep the calories up while lowering the overall phosphorus even more. There are some great nutritionists out there as well that could be quite beneficial to you and Alvin.

Hoping Alvin does as well as, or better than, my Audrey!!!

Thank you Marie!

[jan f]

My dog has been diagnosed with colitis. She has gone to two different vets (one regular; one emergency) and both suggested the same food: W/D, probiotics to sprinkle on top, and a medication which I cannot remember the name (starts with M). She is doing very well. I read where people object to W/D or any prescription diet, but if it works for my dog why should I change. Other dogs have been on all kinds of prescription diet I/D, T/D, K/D and now W/D and all have done very well. I am curious as to why there is so much criticism of these Rx dog foods. I can’t imagine that a vet would recommend a food that would be harmful.

[Krystal H]

I actually prefer to shop online as long as shipping doesn’t make the price ridiculous! I have checked out Chewy and I love the idea of autoship! I can’t always get out to the stores, and my local stores sell out of quality foods really fast, so online is really my best option. I’ll check out that thread when I get the chance, but I am assuming it’s just a lot of options like the editors choice lists, which leaves me scrambling to check the quality, cost, and availability of each one and weigh the options for each dog and I start losing track of where I started and getting all mixed up! LOL I need a chart for this! LOL
I would like to get Roxie and Kovu on the same food if possible, but I know with her being mature and chubby and him being young and active, that might not be the best idea. I know Dessa needs to be on her own since she’s a puppy and a XL breed mix. I’m leaning towards the Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy Food, but that’s just based on what I’ve been able to find that’s of acceptable quality and I can find easliy from sellers I trust. I’m more than open to other brands though as I really have never used any Fromm products before.
I don’t have a set budget for pet food, I’ll work a bit extra if I need to, but I definitely can’t afford to feed Orijen and the like. I’ve been feeding Kirkland lately because it’s the only acceptable food that I can find reliably locally besides junk. I used to feed Taste of the Wild when Kovu was a pup, but it’s so hard to find locally I couldn’t keep up with hunting it down.

[James S]

Hey There! Yeah, my 11 year old female Pit, Nefertiti, has had, “The Bumps”, off & on all of her Life. After many failed remedy attempts & vet visits, I heard that it might possibly be some sort of a yeast infection, which kinda makes sense-She licks herself, then her paws, then scratches herself-Boom! Yeast infection. So, it could be something like that. Although, I’m not sure how males would get it?
Whatever the source, what I’ve found to work best, is . .
STEP 1-I give her a bath using a Human Dandruff Shampoo like Neutrogena. The brown T-Gel works as well, but smells horrible, & seems a bit harsh, while I haven’t ever tried Head & Shouders, because the article that my ex read that suggested this remedy, said that there is a certain ingredient to look for (Wish I could tell you which one), & Head & Shouders either lacked it entirely, or didn’t have as much as the others.
Anywaze…I know they get cold quick, but I’ve found the longer you leave the Dandruff Shampoo on them, the better the results. (Like 3-5 minutes tops should do the trick. I find singing to Nef helps with her desperation)
STEP 2-I rinse her off, which warms her up, & then it’s time for the Hot Spot Shampoo. Just a normal lather, maybe wait a minute before rinsing, then. . .
STEP 3-A nice, normal Dog Shampooing. Nef & I have been digging Burt’s Bees Products lately, but any Oatmeal/Lavender/Chamomile style one should work just fine. Now, I’m NOT an animal dermatologist, but I would definitely keep in mind that some of the Shampoo’s Ingredients might have an effect on Your Pup’s Coat as well. I feel keeping it as close to Organic is always best. This way there’s no need to panic…Because it’s Organic. I digest….
STEP 4-After all that, I’ll dry her off, (while she shakes off on me) then apply Hot Spot Medication (I think it’s just the Hartz one-Not Sure-Just a small bottle-The liquid is yellow in color, & can be found in purrty much any box store, or ordered online) liberally by using a Q-Tip, or by sort of pouring it onto The Bumps &/or Hotspots (depending on the severity of the outbreak) as she tends to get both at the same time.
Well, I Hope This Helps! Again-I’m not a dermatologist, but I’ve been using this method for six years now, & it works better than anything else that I’ve found in the previous five years of failed attempts at relieving my Big Lil’ Girl! when she gets The Bumps.
P.S.-I’ve found that mixing a little olive oil, or coconut oil in with Nef’s Food (about a Tablespoon per bowl tops) helps keep her coat Nice & Shiny. Good Luck!!!!!!

[Pitlove]

It’s going to be hard to find a food that has THAT few ingredients

CANINE DRY:
Potato, fish meal, animal fat, dried beet pulp (3.9%), fish digest, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, sodium hexametaphosphate, fructooligosaccharides (0.39%), potassium chloride.

There are a few companies that make LID diets that are fish and potato based.

Merrick- Salmon& Sweet Potato
Natural Balance- Fish & Sweet Potato
Zignature- Trout & Salmon
Wellness Simple- Salmon & Potato

These foods are all available on chewy.com if ordering online is something that could work for you. You can also take a look at their full list of Limited Ingredient Diets here and see if another might work better for you: http://www.chewy.com/dog/dry-food-294/limited-ingredient-diet,FoodFlavor_facet:Fish

I already filtered it to only show fish based foods. Best of luck!

[aquariangt]

There is a few options here. If you go to the canine nutrition thread, there is a sticky for foods appropriate for large and giant breed puppies. Read the first few pages of information for the pup, and then page 36ish or so has the most recent one. Any food on that list is formulated for growth-also known as puppy food or all life stages food. You can keep all the dogs on this. Feed the overweight/not so active dog for the desired weight, and the other two appropriately.

Alternatively you could feed a weight management food for the one, and the other two on the same one.

[Woof1]

Snowflake – It’s interesting you brought up Hardy Pet as I was just looking at it myself. After reading guidelines on WedMD, I’m not sure I need to use one for all my dogs, but I do have a couple older ones with health issues I feel could benefit from something. But reviews are so confusing. I had found a dog vitamin review website as I was reviewing Pet Tabs (I agree – stay away from them), but they highly recommended Hardy Pet. Conveniently there was a link to their site and they said that was the best pricing. But after a little searching, each of their review pages for any brand wound up with Hardy Pet at the bottom. That’s a little strange for a place that reviews products. Like Dog Food Advisor you would think there would just be a scale of stars and their review. Then I went to Amazon. Even if you don’t buy your products from Amazon, you can usually find reviews. I pay attention to 3 stars or less, they tend to be your most honest. Sure enough, there are reviews questioning this product – one person had an emergency with their dog after taking the product and couldn’t reach the company (the question wasn’t so much if the product caused the issue as it was why wouldn’t the company answer calls, emails, etc). One person never did get their money back even though it was returned within 30 days; and another said all their products list the same ingredients regardless of it’s ‘specialized’ formula. I haven’t delved into it that much yet to see if that’s true (just found it today), though maybe it depends on the amount of the ingredients in each formula, but I do see they include Brewer’s Yeast which can cause allergic reactions in many dogs. They do state they’ve done clinical trials, whether they’re independent trials or not though it does not say, and results aren’t listed. I also noticed on their FB page that some questions go unanswered. So I’m going to keep looking right now. Hopefully someone here can report if they’ve used Hardy’s and what the results were or what is recommended.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Woof1.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Woof1.

[Jonathan S]

I’m not a professional, but I do feed raw to my pups. Do lots of research first. there’s going to be a time and effort commitment as well as a financial commitment. Check out different recipes. Go to youtube and look up Dr. Karen Becker… she’s got lots of really great advice. The hardest thing is going to be convincing yourself that you’re doing the right thing. You’re going to find information out there and opinion that make it seem like handling raw food is like handling poison… it’s not. Take the same precautions you would with handling the food you serve your family.

The next hardest thing is perseverance. You’re going to affect their digestion and it might be messy at first. That doesn’t mean you should stop. You need to give them time to adjust. You will also need to take into account what proteins may or may not agree with your dog. Also, your raw food, especially if you’re making your own, will likely be higher in fat. That can cause some issues if you’re still feeding kibble as puppy food is usually higher in fat. I had to take my pups off puppy food much earlier than I expected.

I read some good advice about not feeding 100% raw. Most of your really good commercial foods are focused to provide complete nutrition, so they have vitamins and minerals in there that you might miss. I feed my dogs 50% raw and 50% kibble to make sure I don’t miss anything.

Another thing I do is review this site very carefully. If dog food advisor thinks that a particular ingredient is a positive thing in a highly rated food, you can bet it’s going to make an appearance in my food.

I hope this helps!

[Pitlove]

I’m sorry, but this is not about “lack of open-mindedness”. There are laws that govern federal commerce to make it fair to the manufacturer and the retailer and other retailers as well. Your website is offering foods like Purina Dog Chow for a much higher price than what you could pay for it at Walmart and then claiming you plan to bring in very pricey foods like Orijen and Acana for far less than what they are worth and what YOU yourself will pay for them. Under the policy I just provided for you Champion can refuse to do business with you if you refuse to comply with their minimum retail price, which you are already doing without even having their food available to customers.

I expect to see you having shut your site down fairly soon due to lack of funding since you will not convince manufacturers of actual high quality foods to sell to you based on your non complience with their minimum retail price and I do not think for a second someone will pay 39$ for a bag of Purina Dog Chow (when they can get it cheaper elsewhere) which is also falsely advertised on YOUR site as not containing corn, which it does.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 6 months ago by Pitlove.

[David T]

Dear Pitlove,

Thank you for your response. Why would my business model be “illegal”? I am curious as to pointing out to me the code in the law that you are referring to.

As I explained in earlier replies in this thread, our dog food delivery brands change from time to time, and at the moment we do not offer Orijen/Acana in our availability, however will in the future through agreements we have with our fullfillment partners.

And as a consumer, it’s entirely up to you to have the choice where you would like to procure your dog food, whether it be from us or another preferred vendor.

Ok, have a great Sunday!

David

[C4D]

Hi Kristin C,

I’m in complete agreement with you on dogs being fed a more natural, balanced diet and that is the building block to fending off diseases. It often helps dogs that already are diagnosed with various conditions such as diabetes and seizures, etc. It sounds like your doing all the right things for your dog with the heart murmur too.

I also believe that way too many chemicals are being put on our dogs and personally use minimal, if any topicals. I actually just pull the ticks off my dogs, identify them (we have deer and brown dog ticks in abundance in my area as well as Lyme Disease) and try to keep them out of areas of known infestations. My guy that got the ticks got no less than 6 in less than a week’s time. I’ve also used some natural repellants on my dogs after getting ticks with great success.

I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just saying it would be interesting to hear what happens if you decide to try omitting the Advantix. Here’s an interesting link on fleas from Dr. Peter Dobias:

http://peterdobias.com/blogs/blog/34542021-can-feeding-a-raw-diet-prevent-fleas

Good luck with your pups!