[Susan]

Hi, have you joined the “Canine Pancreatitis Support ” group on face Book ? someone on the site might know good low fat wet tin foods with good ingredients cause I live Australia I don’t get a lot of the American foods, we get all the Well Pet range Wellness, Holistic Select, Eagle Pack, Earthborn Holistic range & all our Royal Canine Vet diets have different ingredients to the Americian Royal Canine vet diets the Australian R/C has a bit better ingredients cause we have very strict custom laws…..

My boy was eating theVet Diet Royal Canine Gastrointestinal Low Fat Kibble, but it has wheat & barley & Patch started to smell real yeasty & scratch & had bad fermenting breath smell so I changed kibbles again, he couldn’t eat the R/C Gastrointestinal Low Fat wet tin food cause it has rice in the Australian Royal Canine, there’s also Hills Vet Diet I/d Low Fat Restore wet tin food, it has digestive enzymes but it has rice so Patch can’t eat it… http://www.hillspet.com.au/en-au/products/pd-canine-id-low-fat-canned.html

I understand about the raw having enzymes but when a dog has a compromised immune system they can’t fight the bad bacteria in the raw that’s why I went thru a Naturopath Jacqueline Rudan from “Natural Animal Solutions” & she would not let Patch eat any of the commercial raw diets, she said I’ve seen them all being made & they all have very low grade meats & veggies, so I had to buy raw human kangaroo, fresh chicken breast & fresh veggies & make my own raw, it was pretty easy & soooo fresh, I had to put her digestive Enzymes 1/2 capsule & a human Probiotic that is dairy free gluten free 1/2 capsule with every meal to help Patch digest the raw & not get diarrhea.. but he kept regurgitating & burping up the raw even with the Digestive Enzymes & Probiotic, so I cooked the raw & stopped the Digestive enzymes & stopped the Probiotic Patch doesn’t do well on Probiotics he does better on Prebiotics… here’s her site she answers all emails & only cost me $60 for 1 hour phone consultation, she does Skype for overseas customers, every now & then Patch gets bad pain right side chest area under front paw, stomach pancreas area, he comes to me lifts his right paw whinges & wants me to rub his chest after eating certain kibbles that are high in protein over 25% protein, Jacqueline told me Patches Pancreas isn’t doing its job & working properly, all vet test came back OK but he gets all the symptoms of Pancreatitis, vets said it IBD & Helicobacter-Pylori he had Endoscope & Biopsies done 1 year ago, we tried every vet diet none worked for Patch but that’s cause of the boiled rice cause when I was first buying the Hills I/d Low Fat Restore the wet tin had no boiled rice, when we read the ingredients we must of missed rice & when I opened the tin I couldn’t see the rice he was doing really well on the I/d Low Fat Restore wet tin food, then I must of bought a different batch when I opened the tin the top was full of clumps of boiled rice, I rung Hills & said whats happening she said the I/d Restore is made at 2 different places, it sounds like the rice wasn’t grounded & has clumped all together, do I know the Batch numbers of the I/d Low Fat wet tin foods he was doing really well on, I said NO but I have the Batch numbers of all these tins full of rice, so I had to take them all back to the vets for refund, I was so disappointed even though, I hate Hills it worked & you start to not worry what the ingredients are when they start gaining weight & doing better, I tried feeding the i/d wet tin with the rice & scoping out most of the boiled rice but he started having his yellow sloppy smelly poos again farting rumbling bowel noises that you could hear in the next room, his breath stunk so his vet put him back on the Metronidazole for 3 weeks & gave me 3 repeat scripts for when it happens again I don’t have to keep seeing her just for some Metronidazole, the Metronidazole clears everything up I can’t believe how good it is the vet wanted to keep Patch on the Metronidazole she said she has a few dogs like Patch & they are on a low dose of Metronidaole once a day, but I just use when needed I have found since Ive been cooking chicken breast, sweet potatoes, broccoli, zucchini & kangaroo some days & using 1/2 spoon of the Natural Animal Solutions DigestaVite Plus-100 Patch is slowly getting better……I can’t believe it all these years I thought he couldn’t eat cooked food but it was the stupid rice it ferments in their stomach & was iratating his bowel….he can eat grounded rice in kibble just not boiled rice.. I contacted Jacqueline the Naturopath for help naturally.. her diets are under “Information” you pick 1 to 2 proteins I started with just the 1 protein Kangaroo now I feed chicken more then you pick 2-4 veggies & 1-2 fruits, I picked apple when he was eating raw but now I cut up watermelon & give as a treat or Paw Paw, Paw Paw is suppose to be excellent for the somach it has natural digestive enzymes..I freeze inice cube tray, its Summer here in Australia
http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/intestinal-flora-imbalance.html

[Flowers]

Hello

My Dachshund is a year old now and has been on Acana Puppy and Junior dry food. He has always been skinny But if I feed him slightly extra it upsets his tummy. Lately thought he has had very runny stools. Usually his first one of the day is normal but the ones that follow are not, I can’t even pick them up. (Sorry for those who are eating whilst reading this!!!)

I chose Acana because it was rated as a five star food but I don’t think that it is agreeing with my dog. I do wonder if it may be too high in protein. Where I live there is not a huge choice in the pet shop of dog foods so I don’t know what to change to. The choices are Blackwood dog food, Taste of the Wild, Nutri Source or one called Holistic Pro Series.

Has anyone experience of any of the above foods or suggestions as to what I can do?

Thanks

[Susan]

Hi, did you look at the Honest Kitchen Zeal, the fat is only 8.50% & it already has the protein fish, fish is easy to digest.. http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/zeal…
I looked at the Preference the fat is 8.4% & you haven’t added the meat yet….have you looked into cooking? once you cook & freeze everything its pretty easy, just once a week you have to cook & days you feel lazy, I feed a wet tin food, kibble is hard to digest so maybe stick with wet foods less work on the stomach pancreas & bowel…. on Face Book there’s a “Canine Pancreatitis Support” group, post a post asking brands of low fat premium wet tin foods…I know a few feed the “Holistic Select” Senior kibble its easy to digest… just remember the fat % in wet tin food is higher then kibble, if a wet tin food says 5% fat that’s around 22% fat if it was a kibble….

[anonymously]

Per the search engine at this site, a lot of information here. I think you will find answers to your questions.
/forums/search/bladder+stones/

Most veterinary clinics have payment plans/credit arrangements you can apply for. If she needs surgery she must be uncomfortable, stones are painful. I wouldn’t postpone. I would get that done first, per recommendation of the vet.

Oh, and dry food doesn’t really do anything for the teeth. Brush the teeth every evening, I use a medium adult brush and Petrodex tooth paste, see YouTube for how to videos.
I have found daily brushing takes about 5 minutes and is very effective, scrub the sides and back and try to get the inside areas where the tartar and plaque tend to build up.

Post surgery: As you can see by using the search engine (bladder stones) and checking the various posts and threads at this site. The most important thing you can do is increase water intake, add water to all meals, 3 or 4 small meals per day instead of 1 or 2.
Offer frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate, observe for normal flow/amount/stream. Keep the bladder flushed to avoid stagnant conditions conductive to stone formation.
Otherwise I would defer to your vet regarding diet and supplement choices, at least till the dog has been stable for a while….then discuss changes with the vet.
Some types of bladder stones tend to recur, there is a genetic component to consider.

PS: Wysong has a prescription food, ask your vet if it would be appropriate….if you like the ingredients better http://www.wysong.net/veterinarian/

[aimee]

Hi sascha k,

The difference between what veterinarians recommend and food ratings sites such as this one occurs because different criteria are valued. Ratings sites usually focus on the ingredient panel and use that to rate the diet. Veterinary nutritionists and PhD nutritionists overwhelmingly report that you can not tell anything about he quality of the diet by looking at an ingredient list.

The following quotes are from Dr. Remillard a board certified veterinary nutritionist taken from her site petdiets dot com

“Sorry. The ingredients list cannot and should not be used to assess the quality of a dog food. Please disregard the self proclaiming pundits who say you can. It simply cannot be done. In fact AAFCO and FDA guard against it.”

and “I recommend pet food brands that have high quality control procedures and monitoring in place. A review of the ingredient list on a pet food product is not a good way to evaluate or rank a pet food regardless of how hard or detailed some people have tried to be. The pet food bag information lacks the necessary information needed to fully and accurately evaluate pet food quality.”

Veterinary nutritionists ask questions like “Does the company employ a veterinary or PhD nutritionist? Who formulated the diet? Is a nutrient analysis available? What is the digestibility of the diet? What quality control is being used? Can the company answer basic nutritional questions correctly? Does the company invest in nutritional research? Is the marketing material appropriate? …..

You can find information on how nutritionists would recommend you to evaluate diet at wsava dot org/nutrition-toolkit Scroll down to the bottom and you’ll find the link to selecting the best food for your pet.

Sadly what I have found is that foods that are rated 5 star are often made by “marketing companies” by that I mean the company has little to no knowledge of nutrition but know how to make a food that people will buy. The founder of Blue Buffalo reports he got into dog food manufacturing because “ “Slap on a good label, come up with a slogan, and off you go,…..There were already a lot of smoke and mirrors in how pet food was advertised, and that was the sort of stuff we were good at.”

When you look at companies from a perspective of nutritional knowledge/ ingredient testing/ quality control which are the criteria veterinary nutritionists are using to measure a food’s quality a whole different perspective is gained.

So when a veterinary nutritionist was asked, “I have a 20 week old black lab. What is the best food to feed him?” Dr Remillard answered “I would suggest a Large breed growth food from either Purina, Hill’s or Royal Canin given there are no regulatory requirements for such a food but each of these companies have done and continue to do original research on preventing developmental bone disease in large breed dogs.”

General practice veterinarians often take recommendations from the specialists in their respective fields and so likely will recommend the foods that the specialists recommend.

Hope this helps to explain why veterinarians recommend the foods they do.

Dr Remillard’s website is petdiets dot com and there is question and answer forum you might find helpful. Dr Weeth has a blog at weethnutrtition dot wordpress dot com that has several general articles on food evaluation.

[sascha k]

Thanks. I already checked and this is an American organization.

They do have links to graduates in Canada, but there are only two hundreds of miles from me.

[Pitlove]

Sascha- Not all vet’s are alike. The one that I bring my dogs to has never once pushed a prescription food on me, even the hypoallergenic food for my pitbulls skin problems he has had. I told him I was feeding Fromm and he felt that was a great choice.

Dog Food Advisor is not a bad source of information, but it is only one source. It should not be taken as bible. You can research via the internet what boarded veterinary nutritionists have to say about the issues going on with your dog. Some of them, like Dr. Susan Wynn, have their own website where they provide nutritional information. I even read the Hill’s and Purina nutrition information just to see all sides of the spectrum. I have even agreed with some of what they have to say. It does sound like seeing another vet that might be more willing to work WITH you rather than just dismiss all of what you are already doing for your dog as wrong, would be helpful.

Personally, and this is only my opinion based on my own dog, depending on what exactly the GI issues are and how severe they are, I find you do not need a prescription food to fix them. Example; my dog threw up 7 times on a Sunday and we simply fasted him for the night and hes been fine ever since. The only vet (in PetSmart) that was open wanted him to go on a prescription food, JUST by talking to me on the phone.

[sascha k]

I’ve been feeding her Nutrience and Dogswell up until today.
Right now I’m feeding her Royal Canin prescription diet for GI issues.
The vet supports two brands. Royal Canin and Hill’s Science diet.

It is possible the cat died due to other factors as I don’t know all the details but my friend is a pretty smart person with a science degree. It certainly does not qualify her as a veterinarian of any sort but it does prove she has some level of critical thinking skills.

Regardless of what killed her cat Hill’s Science diet is poo poo’ed in almost every source I’ve read.

You can’t believe everything you read on the internet but I find dogfoodadvisor to be fairly rigorous compared to other sources and I also know that human MD’s are often not super great sources to get human nutrition information from.

So I’m kind of stuck on what to do.

For now I will follow the vet’s advice because well….he’s a vet but I’d like to find a vet that specializes in nutrition but I don’t know where to start.

I know in the US there’s a college graduating veterinary nutritionists with links to their practices but in Canada I’m not sure there’s such a thing.

Thanks for your link as well.

[anonymously]

I would consult a Veterinary Internal Medicine Specialist, as I said before the dog’s issues may have nothing to do with the food.

Mail-in saliva and hair tests are not helpful from what I have read. By the way, they are not cheap. I have read a lot of complaints that the test comes back positive for nearly everything. Then what? Plus, it is not an allergy test, it’s a food sensitivity test?

A book review: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2015/06/canine-nutrigenomics-by-dr-jean-dodds-science-as-windowdressing/ Read the comments, there are a variety of opinions, pro and con.

[Jenn H]

This is a very interesting and important topic. Having GSDs that I have at the farm and take to many outside places I’m always looking for something with the best results and least amount of chemicals and side effects.
Here in New England ticks are relentless and pretty much a threat year round. I have used Intercepter & Advantix for yrs with great results. When my girl gets fleas I use Capstar and spray Adam’s on everything. I even spray her with a horse fly spray that is also safe for dogs. She’s out in woods and water so much that it’s a constant fight to keep ticks off of her.
When Intercepter was temporarily discontinued I went back to Sentinal. No complaints.
Admittedly I haven’t been as vigilant using the preventatives since my girl ended up with Lyme anyway despite the randomly effective vaccine and all other preventions.
I have heard that ACV is a great, natural alternative. I just can’t stomach the smell so I haven’t tried it.
I’ll be following this thread closely as I’m always open to trying something new & improved with the least chance of harm to the animal.

[Sarah H]

I am getting an 8 week old Shih Tzu Puppy in a couple weeks. I have been reading a lot of reviews and I am torn between Blue Buffalo and Wellness. Any opinions? They both make Small Breed Puppy food in dry and Puppy food (not size specific) in wet. I realize there are some super premium brands with somewhat higher ratings but if I am going to stick to one brand I prefer to go with something I know I can find at Petsmart. I feed my cat some of these super premium brands which I buy at the smaller stores, in addition to the brands I buy at Petsmart, but I understand that puppies should stick to one brand. The breeders currently feed the puppies Purina Puppy Chow (yuck) and Mighty Dog (double yuck), so I know I will have to introduce the new food gradually. Also, should I stick to a puppy food for the wet food or is a small breed adult wet food OK? Also what size portion of wet/dry food for an 8 week old puppy? I have read that before 3 months old they should free feed the dry food and have wet food at meal times. Thanks in advance!

[Susan]

Hi Raquel, my boy has IBD & suffers with the Helicobacter-Pylori on & off, we found this all out thru Endoscope & Biopsies 1 year ago, the only why to diagnosed Helicobacter in dogs is thru Endoscope & Biopsies….. he was put on triple therapy meds Metronidazole, Amoxicillin & Zantac for 3 weeks…. the vet that did the Endoscope & biopsies recommended prebiotics when the antibiotics were finished, he doesn’t believe in probiotics for dogs but Patches other vet does…..I have found diet plays a big part when too much bad bacteria takes over….
My problem is probiotics & prebiotics seem to make Patch worse, he feels sick, nausea, wants grass etc after having his probiotic, it’s like the probiotics has a party with Patches bad bacteria & make everything worse, then I joined a group on Face Book called “Fast Tract Diet” run by Dr Norm Robillard, then I read about the die off period when you take probiotic & how you can feel real sick also Norm Robillard say’s you should take probiotics on empty stomach when your stomach acids are low, so either first thing in the morning or night before bed all by themselves, not with food, when we are eating our stomach acids are real strong & kill the live probiotics….
Do you know anything about the die off period, Patch was taking a real good animal probiotic called “Protexin” a live probiotic that’s kept in fridge….in the Fast Tract Diet group Dr Norm Rollibard has a book & what foods to eat & not to eat starchy Carbs as they are the worst especially potatoes most dog grain free food have Potatoes, I haven’t bought his books yet, but Patch gets worse after eating potatoes he gets his bad fermenting breath back, he starts his whinging his stomach hurts, so I put him on the Metronidazole for 2 weeks & he’s all good again…I’ve been trying to work out his diet, I know raw is the best but he burps & some of the raw food comes up & then he get acid reflux, the Raw seems to digest real quick & then he regurgitates the raw… Do you have any research that probiotics are working & helping dogs?? cause I know a few other ladies from a IBD group & their dogs can not take probiotics either their dogs get sick with vomiting & the probiotics seem to make everything worse…..I know antibiotics are being over prescribe & are bad, here’s a link “Antibiotic Over Use” that was on the Fast Tract Diet Group site… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240113/

[Raquel A]

I just wanted to take the time to inform those that may see this thread that we have a website completely dedicated to probiotics for dogs – Doggy’s Digest.

If you can help spread the word about our website, you can help us in our mission to inform more pet owners about the amazing benefits of probiotics. We think it’s a crime that dogs are being haphazardly recommended antibiotics.

If there is something you would like to see from us, please do not let us know and we’ll try our best to accommodate. Thank you very much for your help.

– Raquel A

• This reply was modified 10 years ago by Raquel A.
• This reply was modified 10 years ago by Raquel A.

[Laura M]

I think they should disclose where their food is manufactured – either canned or dry. The Whole Dog Journal is a valuable resource to pet owners – I have subscribed for years. I base my dog food choices on what I read there and what I have learned from this website. I don’t see any reason why not to disclose that information unless they are not proud of the answer that they would have to give. After the melamine situation, I will do everything I can to know all that I can about the foods I feed my pets.

[Laura M]

In answer to the original question posted – I don’t think you will get a quality food for under $1 a pound in my humble opinion. I agree the food does not necessarily have to be on the 4 or 5 star listing either. I started with a new puppy (6 months old as of this writing) and I switched him from Diamond to Nutrisource large breed puppy. I think Nutrisource is a fabulous, easy on the system and quality made food, which is reasonably priced. The company is family owned and I believe I read somewhere that they have never had a recall. Because I want a higher protein I will eventually get my puppy onto Acana because I am really impressed with that brand and feed it to my other dogs, but Nutrisource is affordable and very agreeable with my dog and many other people I have talked with about this subject. Good luck in finding something that suits all your needs – as someone earlier said, we need to take many things into consideration when picking a food for our pets.

[Boo S]

I’ve read on these forum pages several things to do with irritated skin for pit bull mixes, but there is ALOT of information. Prior going to the vet — what are some DIY things I can do for her?

My pooch is otherwise fine but has been licking inside her legs, and now there is a red raw rash like thing happening. She doesn’t do this incessantly, but just now and then. She doesn’t seem that uncomfortable.I don’t know if this is an inner or outer allergen, but the licking seems to cause the rash itself or at least make it work.

I don’t know if it’s yeast or another allergy, but do want to give her relief. Apple cider vinegar? Lemon Juice? Something topical? Food change? (She has a sensitive stomach and has been doing great with some high-quality kibble, infrequently, and usually, trader joe’s can food)

Thanks i advance for your help.

[Dori]

Kevin R. One of my girls, a Maltipoo, was riddled with food intolerances, sensitive and allergies and also environmental issues. Her dermatologist/allergist here in Atlanta, Ga. at Blue Pearl Georgia Veterinary Specialists suggested that I not do that particular testing nor the skin testing and shots. He told me it would be a very long process and the duration of the injections would probably be long term as she was such a mess. He advised me that the very best way to deal with her situation was to attempt to either do an illumination diet or try to figure out and eliminate ingredients in her diet and also to remove all, or as many, toxins in the home environment. I no longer burn candles, no air freshener sprays, no plug ins. I switched to natural type cleaners. Never ever any type of carpet freshening powders that are then vacuumed up. Hardwood floors are cleaned with a solution of vinegar and water. I also wipe her paws (all three dogs actually) when she comes in from out in the yard. I switched to a landscaping company that only uses organic products. I removed all the lawn in our patio/back area where they play and potty to stone, gravel and flower gardens….annuals and perennials. Just early on this year I had two types of testing done solely out of curiosity on my part because I had spent years “fixing” her issues to see what they would come up with. I did the Nutriscan Saliva test by Dr. Jean Dodds first and I believe the cost was around $250.00. If memory serves me that tests for 20 items. Though the test was informative as it did have things that I had already eliminated from her diet I did find that the test showed that she was sensitive to one of the few foods she actually does very well on. I then heard about a test called Glacier Peak Holistics on an allergy group I’m on. That tests for 200 including food and environment which cost $85.00. It is a food and saliva test. I that test was spot on for every single thing that through the years I had eliminated from her diet. The food that she does well on was not something that came up as a sensitivity on that test. It did come up with with food ingredient that I was not aware of and that was cucumbers. From time to time Katie would itch, not a lot but it was there. Turns out that they must have coincided with times that I shared cucumbers with the girls. I eliminated the cucumbers and she’s never scratched again. I feed all three of my dogs commercial raw frozen diets rotating brands and proteins with the exceptions of the ones that Katie cannot tolerate. For treats they get fresh fruits and veggies. I’ve been feeding them this way for a little over 4 1/2 years. Switching to the raw frozen was how I was able to eliminate her food issues as it was the quickest way to eliminate soy, grains, all fowl, corn, white potatoes, tomatoes, white rice, all night shade plant ingredients which are all pro inflammatory. I got Katie at the age of 9 weeks old and at that early age she was an allergy sensitive mess. It took me two years to go through the elimination process with her. She is now 6 1/2 years old and a happy camper. Quite comfortable and happy in her own skin. I continue to wipe all three toy dogs privates and paws with warm clean wash cloths. I should mention that I also have a “no shoes” policy in our home. No one, including repairmen, etc. enters our home with shoes on. It would defeat all I’m doing by dragging in environmental stuff that’s on the bottom of their shoes. Everyone is perfectly happy to go along with my wishes and as a matter of fact through the years more and more people that I know have gone with the “no shoes” in the house policy. I also purchased one of those iRobot Roombas that is programmed to go on daily and then I do a deep in the wall vacuuming once a week. It sounds like a lot but when it all comes together it’s all really easy and has changed her and our lives around.

Edit: I will add that there are some people that do not believe in the allergy tests that I have had done on Katie nor their efficacy. All I can say is that they really were spot on with Katie’s issues. Both companies will send you the kits that you need to do the testing with detailed instructions, you send everything back to them and typically in a week or so you’ll get an email with the results. You can then call them and they will go over the results in detail with you.

• This reply was modified 10 years ago by Dori.

[Dori]

Hi Mike,
Thank you for going to all the trouble to do so. I knew it wouldn’t appear in the Dog Food Recall area because it’s not a recall. I just thought that anyone that feeds that particular line should be made aware that something was up. Especially troubling at the time was that no one knew why. I noticed today that there is a “rep” from Hill’s saying it was an issue with the labels on the can but that same “rep” said that Hill’s has never had a recall in their entire history. I linked the 2014 Hill’s Science Diet recall for your Dog Food Recall are for that rep.

Again, thanks for going out of your way to verify that something was up. I should have guessed that you were already on it.

[Ysabella J]

Thank you everyone for the feedback, it is much appreciated. First and foremost, I am curious as to why an internal specialist is being recommended? In this disease, western medicine’s only recommendation is steroids.. That is why we branched out. The holistic vet we see did say, if she doesn’t respond to the treatment she is on, that steroids will be necessary and I understand that. But we are trying to avoid that at all costs. I have read about many dogs with this disease who did much worse on the prednisone and ended up having liver damage. Liver damage is irreversable and if I don’t have to put my girl through that, I wont. Our regular vet also agrees with waiting on starting prednisone, for now. As Susan stated, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. I know this is much different but I saw my brother die of stage 4 cancer MUCH faster because of chemotherapy. I have branched out onto the Golden Retriever Forum and many dogs have done wonderfully with chinese herbs, and acupuncture. So, that is why we started there. Once again, I am very grateful for any and all feedback 🙂

[anonymously]

If it was my dog, I would take the dog to a board certified Internal Medicine Specialist (if you are not doing so already)
Excerpts from article below: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_masticatory_myositis.html

“Results of treatment are best early in the course of the disease. If the disease has progressed to an advanced state before treatment is initiated, there may be no response”.

“In short, treatment is suppression of the immune system usually through high doses (rather than the more commonly used lower “anti-inflammatory” doses) of prednisone or dexamethasone. High doses should be maintained until the jaw seems to open normally. After that, the dose may be gradually tapered over 6 months. In many cases the drug cannot ever be completely stopped”.

[Ysabella J]

Hey everyone!

I know this is mainly a forum for dog nutrition but I am branching out looking for information. I will try to make this as short as possible. About a month ago, Reese (our 4 & a half year old Golden) was outside playing with a stick and came back to me crying. I examined her mouth and didn’t find anything. For the next few days she was very sore when opening her mouth too wide. Took her to the vet and they sedated her and checked her mouth and did X-rays with everything returning normal. She was put on meloxicam and the doctor warned me about MMM. She quickly got better and wasn’t as sore but I noticed she still wouldn’t open her mouth all the way when yawning and seemed to be careful when picking up balls. Another vet said it could be TMJ and to continue the nsaid for another week. Other than not being able to fully yawn, she seemed to be completely fine. Eating fine, no drool, no whining, etc. I talked to the vet and they recommended sending out the 2M antibody test and starting prednisone. I did some of my own research and decided to get a 2nd opinion from the holistic vet first. Only thing is, she was booked out 3 weeks. In the meantime, we were careful with her jaw. No bones or chewing and no ball playing. She didn’t get any worse and I once again only noticed her yawn being off. Fast forward, Reese had her initial appointment last week and the doctor there agreed with MMM. Said the muscles around her jaw bone felt almost non-existing. She also commented on how her cheek muscles looked like they were slightly sunken in. We sent out the 2M antibody test and it came back as a borderline antibody titer and they recommend a muscle biopsy to confirm. Vet agrees with me that since her symptoms aren’t terrible that we will wait to do this since it is an invasive procedure. The holistic vet decided to put her on chinese herbs and supplements. We are also doing acupuncture weekly (for now). She said at this point since her only symptom seems to be her yawning and muscle atrophy that we don’t need to put her on prednisone, or NSAIDs. If it gets worse, we may have to. I will do anything before turning to the steroids. We are reluctant that we caught it before it progressed but doc says no vaccines or toxins that can trigger a reaction since it’s an auto immune disease. We already had been feeding partially raw and Orijen kibble which we will continue to do. She has had two acupuncture sessions and has been on the supplements for one week and I haven’t noticed improvement, but she’s also not doing worse. Anyone have any recommendations or have been through this? I read it is common in the breed but I had never heard of this disease until now. Any advice is much appreciated from me and my girl. Thanks from the both of us!

[InkedMarie]

In this forum, above, highlighted in yellow, is a stickie on large breed puppy nutrition. Somewhere in that very long thread is a list of appropriate brands for large breed puppies. I’d start with the last page & work backwords to find the link to the list. Once you see the list, you can go to the website for the food & look for non-chicken ones.

[Taylor S]

Hello Guys,
Our dog suffered from severe skin issues, primarily rashes under our boxer’s armpits and his belly. I was so fed up with stuff that did not work both from the web and our vets I read extensively on the benefits of SCFA’s and probiotics for helping dog’s allergies. A research journal lead me to a particular flax seed developed by a farming co-op that grows a specific flax seed for dogs. There website included canine products with their flax. I used the VitaHound product that includes enzymes and probiotics with the flax, and it worked, no more rash and no more itching. So great to see someone advocating for this type of approach, keep posting on the benefits of SFCA’s and probiotics, the vet profession needs to help their patience use these compounds to help their suffering dogs and not have to figure it out on their own. I look forward to visiting your site keep up spreading the word.

[Amber C]

So I’m reaching out for a little advice… my 8 years old mutt (German Shephard, Collie, Lab mix) was on, please don’t all hate me since I didn’t know better, purina for 7 years. After getting lymes disease amongst a lot of other health problems including diarrhea on a weekly basis, we hit the Internet for answers and a better dog food. He has a thyroid problem and is on pills now that have taken the diarrhea away (thank goodness!). We switched him about a year ago to Taste of the Wild. He’s tried about all different flavors and we mixed in canned and dry kibble. His coat looked amazing and his life long dandruff disappeared! Overall health was much healthier, like a whole different dog. The vet said TOTW would lead to kidney problems and it wasn’t good for him, they recommended science diet. I read about TOTW and heard so many bad reviews, so after 7 months on it, I switched over to Whole Earth Farms, again mixing wet with dry. I found the stews mixed better than the pate recipes, but he does get both cycled in with the chicken turkey dry kibble and the red meat mix kibble. He loves the food, he’s not picky at all though, he’d eat anything in front of him short of the kitchen sink, but his dandruff that he had his whole life is back. I wanted to keep him on rotation, maybe 3 different brands switching every 4 months or so, and even though everyone seems so anti TOTW, it made him look and act healthier, but im nerrors about a bad batch! There’s no other problems with whole earth farms besides the dandruff coming back. Im a little at a loss. He weighs over 90lbs, not an ounce overweight, so he requires food… lots of food and budget is a consideration. TOTW was pricey for me, but doable if it was good for him. Anyone have any suggestions or thoughts? Anything would be of help, we’re about halfway through 2 different bags of WEF, so I just need to figure it out before we run out.

[Allison C]

Long time lurker, but joined this forum to address tons of questions that I used to bother Petco employees with and never got a definitive answer to.

I have two senior toy poodles, one (9lb) with medium activity level, the other one (smaller, 6lb) with little to none activity level. Suffice to say I try to get as much exercise for them as possible but the smaller one is just way too stubborn and lazy–let’s save that topic for another day.

We were on Wellness Core Original for some 10 years or so. Now I’m looking to jump ship because I figured the dogs could use a variety in their food life and also I came to believe that limited ingredient diet is better for my aging dogs. Right now we’re on Canidae Pure Salmon but I don’t know if the dogs like it as much as they did Wellness.

In my search for dog food I tried to look at those with protein % of 30 or more but it’s not easy to reconcile that with the limited ingredient factor.

But I recently heard/read somewhere that high protein food isn’t good/effective for inactive dogs. Because if that’s true, I can just feed my dogs Wellness Simple, which comes with relatively low protein %. Is it true that high protein can be bad?

[Bev A]

Ok, I will start with that. However the diet you gave me from Meg I have already used. She loved it for about 3 days and then decided yuck and turned her nose up to it. I haven’t gotten a second opinion for a couple reasons, one I simply can’t afford another vet bill, hers stays high and has all her life. And 2, if they decided to keep her over night she would stress so much she would go into a seizure. She has never in all her almost 14 years never been away from me for more than a few hours. They had to pull some teeth and she did very well but the vet said she hadn’t woke up so she would call me when she did. A couple hours went by and she called me and said, Bev you know I never do this but Bitty has not woke up yet. Would you come by, I think she just knows you aren’t here/ so I went in. They brought her out wrapped in her blanket and she was sound asleep. So they handed her to me and I said, Bitty you have to wake up now so we can go home. That little tail started wagging and the vet said, I knew it. She would have laid there and died because I was not there. She is very attached to me. No she never has large amounts of urine, maybe the size of a quarter if that. But she does leak urine now if she sleeps very hard, or if she isn’t eating. Seems that is better when she is willing to eat right. And there hasn’t been a lot of testing done. The vet feels there could be an ulcer and she gets meds for that from time to time. She really stresses when I leave her at home. She does get lonely which is why I have another dog, a Pomeranian. Seems as long as there is another animal for her to compete with she is better. I wish she was more willing to eat some other foods. I have gone through hundreds of dollars of different foods over the years and she has just refused them. I did buy liver and lightly cooked it. She will eat it if I hand feed her and if Katie is there to take a bite every time she does. I get my goats milk from a dog food treat store. She refuses to drink it but I freeze it in ice trays and take out a couple cubes from time to time and put it in a syringe. She gets no choice in the matter. She is just so stubborn! I don’t know if this site allows us to share email addresses so won’t put mine here but if they do or if admin will give it to you and you don’t mind me having your I would be willing. I so appreciate your help.

[Kristine V]

Hi all,

Thank you all for your support and suggestions. Koji’s symptoms started early September. We noticed he was looking a little skinny and suddenly he started throwing up before eating, after eating, eating grass etc. On evening of day 3 and throwing up, we took him to his vet. They gave him a shot to help with the nausea. The last time he had seen his vet was in June for his last puppy shots. From June to September he had not gained any weight. His symptoms were slowly creeping on. That night at the vets office, they did x-rays and said there was no visible foreign object but there was lots of gas and thickening of his small intestines associated with inflammation. Our vet then referred us to a specialist, Internal Medicine doctor. Ultrasound was done, which pretty much revealed the same as the x-ray. From this point on, he just got worse. He was put on so many medications, had every blood test done, and everything pointed toward Inflammartory Bowel Disease.

THE BIG PROBLEM: Koji is eating, however, due to whatever is going on in his small intstines, is NOT ALLOWING ANY NUTRIENTS to be absorbed in his body. Hence the continued weight loss. Last week alone he lost 3 pounds within 4 days. He went from 81lbs and is now down to 74lbs. So I’m sure as your reading this, you can see our desperation and dilemma. NOTHING is working. His new vet, who did the NutriScan food sensitivity test and is currently treating Koji, is as baffled as we are. No matter what we feed him, no matter waht supplements we have given him or how often he eats, his body is just not absorbing any nutrients. We tried the Holistic approach along with Western Medicine and NO SUCCESS. Trust me when I say this, we have exhausted every non surgical option to help our boy. I am his voice and his advocate and no matter the cost, we are not giving up on him. I have called so many specialist BEGGING to have a new set of eyes review his medical records and NOT ONE specialist was willing to review them without paying $180.00 and having to bring Koji in for an appointment. I work in the medical field and peer case reviews are done all the time. Why in the hell can’t a group of specialist do the same.

So this is where we are….our baby is in pain, has no life in him, no excitement, no mommy kisses or cuddles. He doesn’t want to be bothered. My husband and I knew the steriods would make him feel like this and we told ourselves we have to suck it up seeing him like this and pray for a damn miracle that the steriods kick in internally and we see progress. Sadly, nothing has changed except him getting skinnier. On the positive, we had his protein levels checkedthis past Tuesday and they are perfect. Meaning he is not in immediate life threathening danger. Meaning we have a little more time to give the steriods a good 2 weeks of waiting and see what happens. There is no worse heart ripping pain than seeing him suffer like this. So as you can imagine, as much as we truly DO NOT want him going through open abdominal surgery, we have no other choice. It’s a major surgery and not one to be taken lightly. The risks associated with this surgery are very high and we could very well loose him. But in our hearts, we feel we are slowly loosing him now. So what’s a parent to do? Risk the surgery and know we will get an exact diagnosis, or do nothing and we end up having to cross him over the rainbow bridge? It’s tuff ya’ll. A very crappy situation to be in. For all we know, and the IM doctor said herself, he could have a piece of plastic or some small object in his intestine that she wasn’t able to see on ultrasound. I can go on and on but in the end, nothing we are doing is working and he isn’t getting any better and I just want a miracle and want my baby back! 🙁

I would like to post his picture so you all can see my beautiful boy but I don’t know how to upload a picture on here as my profile picture.

[Shawna]

Hmmmmm? Creatinine is only a little high… Something doesn’t jive here. I’m sure there are exceptions to the rules but creatinine is a better indication of how well the kidneys are actually functioning (from everything I’ve ever read). Maybe newer data is suggesting different but data on this site, veterinary medicine dvm360, published in 2011 still agrees “A serum creatinine concentration is the most commonly used measure of severity of renal dysfunction and is the basis for staging chronic kidney disease (CKD) (Table 1). To optimize accurate staging of CKD, serum creatinine concentrations should be evaluated on two or more occasions when the patient is well-hydrated.” http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/laboratory-evaluation-kidney-disease?rel=canonical

Based on a BUN of 77 and a creatinine of 1.6, I personally wouldn’t do low protein but rather moderate amounts of “high quality” protein.

Does your girl have large amounts of very dilute urine? Was there any protein in the urine? Was any other tests done? Is there any other medical conditions? Did you get a second opinion? She doesn’t want to eat often but you said this is just her normal. Does she have any other symptoms such as vomiting, depression etc?

This may help… My Audrey was diagnosed when she was just 13 months old but had symptoms when she was just 6 weeks old. Within the first year of diagnosis I made dietary changes and then had her blood work done every three months. On December 18, 2007 (the second blood work done after the dietary changes) her BUN was 77 (6 to 25 normal) and her creatinine was 1.9 (0.5 to 1.6 are normal ranges for this lab). Audrey didn’t eat a lower protein diet for another almost 7 years.

They also now know that senior dogs actually require MORE protein than adult dogs because they are less efficient at digesting it. Even toy breed dogs – I had a 4 pound Chihuahua live to age 19 eating a HIGH protein diet.

Please take some time to read the articles on this website. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

Okay……..YES – I would highly recommend starting her on Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It’s pricey up front but will last a long time for a four pound little girl. I’ve never used Five Leaf but others I’ve directly talked to felt it helped. The Primal Defense and Acacia Fiber will help lower BUN. I personally would look at feeding foods with higher quality and amounts of protein and getting rid of the cream of wheat and gravy. See if you can find canned tripe — a brand that is just tripe. There is one out with quinoa but I’m not sure how much phosphorus is in quinoa so not sure it is suitable? It may be, I just don’t know. Tripe itself is higher in protein with moderate amounts of phosphorus. Most dogs really really like it too. You can continue the goat milk (best if it’s raw in my opinion). Eggs are a good option but the yolk is higher in phosphorus so, recommendations vary depending on stage of the disease, you might want to feed more cooked whites then whole eggs (maybe a one to one ratio – one whole egg with one white only). I would also suggest against feeding homemade as it is really important to get the phosphorus to calcium ratios correct and to limit phosphorus to appropriate amounts for the stage of the disease (which is early stage based on the numbers you mentioned—unless your lab normals are way different than mine?). There are recipes online if you want to home prepare. Dr. Meg Smart has a recipe – you would want the one for “early to moderate stage” http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2013/02/home-made-diets-and-renal-disese-in.html

There’s lots more you can do but you mentioned you have a budget so start with these and then if there’s more for other things you can add on as able–such as herbs that can be helpful.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.

[Coonhound Mama]

Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw is expensive stuff at 5 dollars per can, but it’s really excellent quality. You can read reviews of it on here and most all are 5 stars with the exception of just a few that are 4.5 stars. I’d definitely look into it if you can afford it, as the ingredient list is clean and simple and most lines offer a single protein source per can.

[Jenn H]

Ah puppies & diarrhea. There’s a million causes.
Given that he’s been having to adjust to new environments in his short life I’m going to keep my fingers crossed that it’s just stress/excitement.
To help him symptomatically make sure the rice you give him is white rice. Brown can be more difficult to digest. When you make the rice save the water it’s boiled in and pour it over food and/or give it to drink.
Pumpkin is a great help in relieving diarrhea. 1 tsp/10 #s.
I have also had great luck with probiotics. An easy 1 to get a hold of is Nutri-vet Food Transition. It’s at Petco & comes in packets or tabs. It’s not expensive. Works great.
Then there’s my all time favorite thing and that’s raw goat milk.
When giving probios or goat milk wait 2 hrs before or 4 hrs after meals if on an antibiotic.
If you think he has a chicken allergy you can try giving him organic ground beef w/ the least amt of fat you can get. Boil it like you would the chicken.
I usually get i/d cans when my dogs need to be on a bland diet. It’s a prescription food. But it makes me feel better to add the rice, chicken/beef to supplement the food because then I know it’s balanced. This is obviously a diet that isn’t meant to be fed for too long. Especially with a growing pup.
Ask the vet to hold off on vaccines until his immune system isn’t busy fighting something else or he’s less stressed. Also I personally prefer to spread out vaccines at least 2 wks apart. I don’t do combos. (Except the parvo. It only comes that way.) It’s easier on the immune system and if there’s a reaction I can know which was the cause. And I only do the core vaxx. Understand that I am not an anti-vaxxer. Just not an over-vaxxer. It took me 30+ yrs of raising dogs and other animals to figure out that they don’t need a lot of the stuff we shoot them up with. And the difference between vaccinating and immunization. And what the shots do when an animal isn’t in optimal health at the time they receive them.
Sometimes dogs lick their paws because they have a fungus. That’s not always a sign of allergies. So if eliminating chicken doesn’t help, try looking into that.
Good luck with your new puppy. Congratulations!

[Susan]

Hi Ruth, some dogs can’t eat boiled rice, it irritates their bowel, when I rescued my boy 3 years ago, first he was weeing blood, so he was put on the Royal Canine Vet Diet S/O Urinary kibble & wet tin after 6 weeks his crystal had all dissolved & vet said stop feeding the Royal Canine Vet diet & feed a healthy diet, Patch started having diarrhea on & off, I couldn’t work out what was wrong, he’d do poos with Jelly, then poo’s with blood, then diarrhea, then normal poos, but when he was eating the Royal Canine Vet diet S/O his poos were fine, later we realised there was no rice in the wet tin S/O then finally vet realised it was the boiled rice & he had food sensitivities….we thought chicken also but he eats chicken now…
Try feeding boiled potatoes instead of the boiled rice & see if poos are better…. Patch also didn’t like kibble in the beginning, so I started using his kibble as treats….
Read the ingredients on the wet tin foods & don’t get any that have rice & see how he does…also some wet tin foods will say Lamb & when you read the ingredients it will have poultry by-products as well & only a little bit of lamb…

[C4D]

Hi Shawna,

Yes, you did give me some food for thought and more research! 🙂

I did go back and read that portion of the article again. She did say that it didn’t work for her dog. I did find articles stating that famotidine can cause inappetance in some. In my case it seemed to help and I used it on an “as needed” basis. We are going back over 4+ years when I was doing the initial research. My vet recommended the famotidine (when we were in the later stage) and I found it on many sites as well the dogaware site. I was using almost every natural supplement recommended on the dogaware site as well as both mirtazapine and b complex vitamins, alternately, to help increase appetite in the later stage. They did seem to work. This is another one of the dogaware links that include the use of famotidine:

http://dogaware.com/health/kidneynattie.html

I understand your point that it might only be masking the sypmtoms, but in the case of CKD in an older dog, I think it might be helpful, particularly if there would be nothing done otherwise. I’m aware of the peppermint oil and ginger extracts and agree that this is quite helpful. I did find that apple cider vinegar can be used, but it seems to have mixed results, depending on the problem, on some sites such as livestrong. I found that sodium bicarbonate could be added to the Sub-Q fluids to combat the acidosis, but this was on a more traditional kidney site (the merck manual).

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/urinary_system/noninfectious_diseases_of_the_urinary_system_in_small_animals/renal_dysfunction_in_small_animals.html

Since in the traditional sites they are mentioning the metabolic acidosis as part of the kidney problem, are they the holistic vets disagreeing with this? I understand your point that indigestion, not necessarily related to kidney disease, can be related to insufficient acid production.

On another note, what do you think of the OP’s recent question regarding giving liver and kidney a few times a week?

[C4D]

Hi dan g,

I don’t know what you googled, but here are a variety of links that are backed by research studies.

Here’s a link that’s fairly easy to read. This was a study that was in a Purina nutrition forum that found that even dogs with renal failure actually had a higher mortality rate on the low protein diet:

http://www.dogaware.com/files/bovee.pdf

A lot of people like Purina’s research:

https://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/media/1132/senior-pet-food-protein-facts.pdf

Eating dehydrated food their whole life, leaving them in a constant state of slight dehydration and dental disease are more likely causes of kidney failure.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/kibble-never-a-good-option/

http://www.avdc.org/periodontaldisease.html

http://veterinaryteam.dvm360.com/how-periodontal-disease-can-affect-pets-organs?rel=canonical

http://www.iris-kidney.com/education/risk_factors.aspx

[Shawna]

Hi C4D,

“Mine was adamant about using the Sub-Q’s and giving famotadine (Pepcid AC) to help with the metabolic acidosis that is a part of kidney disease. That’s the reason he doesn’t want to eat.”

You’ve mentioned this a few times and I was hoping you would allow me to give a different point of view? First though, I DEFINITELY agree with the Sub-Q fluids. Fluids are started when BUN and creatinin get to a certain level usually. This is, in part, to help flush toxins from the blood (hence why they wait for a build up of those toxins). Flushing those toxins out helps pup feel better and is often the only cause of inappetence.

I wanted to talk more about Pepcid AC. I think the first thing is that these types of drugs don’t actually help with “systemic” acidosis. They are designed to control the amount of acid in the gut only – not in the whole body. However, the doctors that I follow feel that indigestion etc is caused by too little acid production. This makes sense to me when you think about how food is digested. When we eat protein our gut makes hydrochloric acid in response to the amount of protein in that food. It does this because it then activates the enzyme pepsin in the stomach that helps to digest protein. Not enough acid and the protein sits in the tummy not getting digested — this causes symptoms. YES, antacids do work but they don’t resolve the issue but rather hide the symptoms. You are still not digesting your proteins and NOW, due to the antacid, you are digesting even less protein (while potentially on an already low protein diet). It’s no wonder our dogs and cats don’t live long with KD. 🙁

Yes, when ulcers are present there are definitely considerations that need to be made. That said, ulcers are caused by Helicobacter pylori bacteria. Newer thinking believes that dietary sensitivities (which we now know can be activated by bacteria) strip the lining of our gastrointestinal tract and set the gut up FOR the bacterial infection and symptoms – aka ulcer. Avoiding the trigger, when possible, is a far better way of dealing with a symptom than simply medicating the symptom.

You had mentioned Dogaware as a reference for the use of pepcid with inappetence but Mary actually states that it was the pepcid that was “causing” her Shar Pei to have inappetence. She writes “WARNING: I had my dog on Pepcid for over a year when I discovered it was contributing to her inappetence. Once I stopped giving it, her appetite improved immediately.”

A few times a year, the last few years at least, I could tell that my Audrey was having some gut issues after eating. I resolved her discomfort by mixing apple cider vinegar 50/50 with water and forcing it down via syringe. With in a few to five minutes she would belch and then be fine. Other great options for inappetence that don’t have protein digesting side effects would be peppermint essential oil and ginger extract. Actually, just yesterday I watched a video on Dr. Melissa Shelton’s Facebook page — she’s treating a kitten that was failing to thrive. She offered kitty food and kitty sniffed but wouldn’t take it. She picked kitty up and dropped 5 to 6 drops of Kitty Boost (an essential oil she formulated specifically for cats) on his back and then rubbed it in. While rubbing it in she said that it had the oils from GI Goe (her blend for tummy issues) in it. She spent a minute or two rubbing the oil in the kitties fur, set the kitten down and continued talking. The kitten immediately went over to the food bowl and started eating. It was pretty amazing how quickly it worked.

Anyway, sorry this was soooo long. Hope there was some food for thought there. 🙂

[enny]

Research Brothers dog food. They don’t have white potatoes. I was using it for my dogs arthritis problem. Somewhere I read that a Ft Lauderdale? canine unit cured their dogs allergies with this food. It comes from a Florida pet store and they UPS it to you if you don’t live nearby. I now use Earthborn Holistics which doesn’t use white potatoes in its Great Plains Feast (bison meat). Good Luck!

[C4D]

Hi dan g,

You said “With the insurgence of grain free (more protein) foods also comes an increase of kidney failure at vets. So far, they still debate the cause as high protein or phospherus.” Could you please link where you got this information from.
As far as any studies I’ve read there is no link between high protein and kidney failure. Putting a healthy dog on a low protein diet to avoid kidney failure is very old,
outdated information.
Phosphorus, not protein needs to be bound and/or only when kidneys are failing, and not necessarily in the beginning stages. Grain free does not necessarily equate to high protein. BTW, Merrick canned classics are all grain free, they have been for a while now. I’ve fed them for years. I also have had a CRF dog, so I had to learn a lot about it.

[Pamela D]

In response to the many cat owners who are searching for a good website that discusses feline nutrition let me make the recommendation of catinfo.org that website is excellent. Having worked at an all cat hospital for nearly 8 years, I can tell you that is the website our feline vets as well as feline veterinarians from other feline exclusive hospitals recommended to clients. When searching for a good cat food it is important to pay attention to carbohydrates most dry foods are loaded with carbs which cats are not able to process like humans and dogs and other species. The website mentioned above has two great articles one on feline nutrition: The basics, and another one which is titled the carnivore connection. Anyone who is concerned about their cats diet should read both articles thoroughly. You will learn why it is so very important to put your cat on wet food and there is an article that will help you to transition your cat to wet food. I had three dry food junkies and managed to successfully transition all three of them over to wet food it took me a few monthsbut I finally did it. Again that website is Catinfo.org let me add that your not so best can food is more than likely much better than your most expensive premium dry food. One more thing, try to stay away from fish and beef and stick with anything that has feathers as in poultry. Some cats cannot tolerate fish and beef and will vomit. Also for those of you with hyper–T cats, Make sure your vet is closely monitoring your cats renal function. Sometimes hyperthyroidism will mask renal disease, and try to find a vet that will check your cats blood pressure as well.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Pamela D.

[Coonhound Mama]

Hi InkedMarie,

Thanks for your response and congratulations on the new puppy! I am located in Old Orchard Beach, Maine. Just moved here a year ago so I’m trying to find some places nearby that will be cost effective. Thanks for sharing your advice regarding Reel Raw. I have read some other reviews that have noted the noticeably higher fat percentage, so I think for now we will stick with Hare Today. Our pup is a 5 year old shelter dog whom we’ve only had for three months, so for right now we are still doing a slow transition to raw. She’s been kibble fed her whole life! We’ve started out on the bone, organ and meat grinds which seems to be going very well. If I can muster up enough courage to start her on some edible bones (other than recreational bones) I will certainly take your advice and try the beef rib bones!

[Jenn H]

The common factors of those cases were all dogs were fed Fromm and many acquired a bacteria. That’s more than a coincidence to me. The fact that not all dogs got/get sick from that brand could be for a variety of reasons: individual dog has enough of good bacteria to not be affected, size of dog, certain probios it may be given, general health, recent antibiotic treatment, hospitalization…
While there are too many unknowns to blame the food, the coincidences are enough for me to avoid it for now. I have an adult GSD that has been thru 2 tx of a/b for Lyme and a puppy. I feel their immune systems are not strong/developed enough to take on a stubborn bacterium like C.diff.
I certainly can’t completely protect them from the bacterium short of putting them in a bubble, I can avoid potential/suspected things that may have spores.
C.diff can be anywhere. It’s passed on from feces and easily spread to surfaces, objects and food if the infected person doesn’t wash their hands. It’s also in soil, air, water, food (especially meat). The spores can survive weeks to months.
For now anyway I am going to choose another food for their rotation and continue with the raw goat milk in order to hopefully continue to arm them with plenty of good bacteria and build strong immune systems.
I may eventually feed them Fromm in the future, but I cannot take any risks like that right now.

If the company isn’t aware of these cases I wouldn’t expect them to recall anything. I’m not sure how many of the complainants and vets notified them. That’s a disservice to Fromm. I’m sure they would want to know and investigate. Not having this info doesn’t give them an opportunity to remedy any problems that may exist or rebut the claims. This leaves consumers like me who can’t have dogs that can’t afford an infection to steer clear just in case.
Communication is key to keep everyone in the know, honest, accountable, protected and help them improve a product. It doesn’t do much good overall to leave a bad review on a site, but not tell the source about their issues.

[Shawna]

Hi Courtney,

So sorry, I just now saw your reply to me!!

Yes, I believe Dori is quite satisfied with the support and dietary advice she received from Dr. Wynn. Dori is a raw feeder and feeds pre-made complete and balanced diets so I’m not exactly sure what involvement Dr. Wynn had. Maybe just consult versus diet formulation? I can ask Dori to comment.

A nutritionist, whether credentialed or not, holds no value to me if they don’t have a deeper understanding of how “healthy foods” (like canola oil) 🙂 can be damaging. I want someone willing to think outside the box versus someone to just spout out recipes that simply meet all the nutrient requirements. I’m not sure all the people I listed can do that but I have more faith in them then some others I’ve seen (especially Drs. Becker and Royal). The problem with this is that you might have to spend more on more supplements but, in my opinion, in the long run it pays off with better health. An example if needing canola for it’s Linoleic acid — hemp seed oil would be an alternative having 54 to 57% LA (Dr. Becker recommends hemp seed in her recipe book when feeding a beef diet). Another option, and my personal choice, would be pumpkin seed oil. It contains approximately 64% LA. In addition to that it is high in vitamin E and in chlorophyll which is quite health promoting. It’s likely that a source of Omega 3 would need to be added in higher amounts with these two than with canola but that is definitely doable for most.

There are nutritionists that can formulate a complete and balanced diet and then their are folks that can formulate a complete and balanced diet while doing so with foods that not only meet nutritional needs but also promote optimal health. But I’m sure you understand that as you are trying to get a more personalized, healthier diet. 🙂

I think this article written by a human dietitian explains the problem quite well
“A DIETITIAN’S TRAINING AND ROUTINE

Providing Medical Nutrition Therapy in a nursing home requires credentials as a registered dietitian with the American Dietetic Association’s (ADA) Commission on Dietetic Registration. Training is extensive. In most cases it requires a bachelor’s degree from an accredited college, an internship of nine months to a year working within a clinical setting, and passing a comprehensive exam.

During my clinical training as a dietitian, I was not taught holistic nutrition principles. I did not learn the benefits of herbs, or of the importance of whole foods, probiotics, enzymes, or organically grown foods to good health. I did not learn to use vitamin and mineral supplementation to overcome illness or disease. I did not understand that poor nutrition is probably the cause of most disease and poor health conditions in the first place. I had no idea that we require cholesterol and saturated fat to be well. I did not learn that the nutritional value of grass-fed beef was superior to grain-fed beef, or of the importance of iodine coupled with the avoidance of bromine for proper thyroid function, and so on.

I was taught we should eat less fat and more grain products. I was led to believe that pharmaceutical therapy was necessary and that nutrition made little or no impact in treating an already established condition. My continuing education hours were offered free by the pharmaceutical industry. During these classes I was taught about their “new and improved” Ensure and other products they were promoting.” – See more at: http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/health-issues/a-dietitians-experience-in-the-nursing-home/#sthash.SWFcZ0Bo.dpuf

It’s often more about what you know than what (or even where) you were taught.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.

[aimee]

Hi Dawn,

So sorry to hear that your dog recently needed surgery for stones. Were the stones really in the kidneys or were they in the bladder?

From what I’ve read preventing recurrence is difficult. The vet diets have some backing behind them regarding establishing parameters to prevent formation where as a lot of this type of information isn’t available for foods you’d purchase on your own.

If faced with this situation I’d be devoting a lot of my time on monitoring what is coming out of my dog in addition to what is going in. It seems all are in agreement that “dilution is the solution to pollution” in other words water water and more water. I’d want my dog consuming a lot of water which means moist food or if feeding dry I’d be adding a lot of water to it. But again what is most important is what is coming out. To that end I’d buy myself a refractometer so I could catch urine and monitor the concentration at home. I’d also invest in a pH meter to monitor that aspect as well. Having your vet spin down a fresh ie still “warm from the dog” sample and then looking for crystals is another piece of information.

Frequent rechecks and x ray screening can identify reformation when the stones are still small and then may be able to be recovered without surgery.

If you don’t want to use the vet food there are home cooking options through balance it dot com and you could ask your vet what to look for in a store bought food. I’d think you’d want to avoid high oxalate ingredients, and use a food whose calcium level is close to AAFCO minimum( 0.6% DM) That can be a bit tricky as companies may not monitor this closely hence the vet diets. Vit D levels should be controlled as well. Vit C is metabolized to oxalate so avoid that. Protein amount is tricky it may depend on the amino acid profile as I think certain amino acids are metabolized to oxalate. You will likely need to call the company of any food you are considering and ask what is the average urine pH the diet produces and get a nutrient profile. Larger companies are more likely to have the information and type of quality control you’d need over small companies.

Best of Luck

[C4D]

Hi Courtney H,

I haven’t had to work with a nutritionist of any kind, but I would be wary of independent pet nutritionists. They can get “certification” from home study programs under $1000 for a very short period of study. I would personally only feel comfortable with one who had a veterinary degree with certification in nutrition as opposed to simply a “certified” nutritionist. Here’s an example:

http://www.anhs-school.com/pet-nutrition.html

Hi Aimee,

Shawna didn’t say she was a ACVN certified nutritionist. Meg Smart may not be on the ACVN board certified list, but she was the first to teach small animal nutrition in North America, so she must have some decent credentials. Since she is Canadian and got her DVM and PHD from Canadian Universities, it seems logical that she would not necessarily be credentialed in an American College of Nutrition. Another thought on this is that ACVN was founded in 1988 and she was already an established vet and teaching nutrition in Vet schools in 1994, so it may not have been necessary. Just my random thoughts. Link:

https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/wcvm_people/profiles/Smart_Marion%20Meg.php

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by C4D.

[M M]

@Olga, thank you for your detailed response! I already pressure cook big pots of beans and eat lots of vegetables so it should be pretty simple for me to get in the habit of putting the rest of it together in a big batch as you do. I will try the lentils, too! I already have most of these ingredients although most of the supplements (especially the Nupro, Green Mush, and DE) are new to me.

I agree that eating the carcass of a factory-farmed animal is not healthy. I also do not think processed food is healthy. I am a long-time vegetarian but bought into the “dogs need meat” dogma when we adopted our girl. Our vet swears that dogs don’t need or miss the meat (as if kibble even resembles meat), which is comforting as a lot of other folks clearly think I’m a dog abuser for feeding her veg food. I know of at least 7 other dogs who have done very well with the V-dog with or without home cooked supplement.

A few more questions (and I understand if you do not have time to answer all these):

How did you figure out how much to feed and the ratio of your ingredients? I am concerned I may accidentally under- or overdose on the calorie and protein/fat content.

Do you feed any kibble at all or just the home-cooked food? If so, what kind? As I said, ours loves her kibble but words cannot express how much our dog adores her beans and greens mix.

What kind of biscuits do you feed?

What brand of digestive enzymes/probiotic/prebiotic do you like?

Do you mash the food or just let it cook down in the stew? Our dog really does not chew unless I give her something long like an apple slice or carrot stick. She has a powerful jaw but her teeth seem to meet only in one place on each side due to her strong underbite. She has some rubber toys from Westpaw which she loves to chew and tug but her breath is pretty bad if I don’t add liquid chlorphyll to at least one of her meals.

Are there any veggies you know of that are off limits due to toxicity (e.g., raisins, onions, garlic)?

Thank you again for helping us to improve our dog’s diet. I am going to start using your method this weekend and have saved your post to make sure I explore all of the ideas you gave as seasons change.

[Shawna]

Hi Ken,

I haven’t read through all the comments but I wanted to state that it could be the chicken causing the issue — a chicken sensitivity versus and allergy. Maybe the chicken itself OR what the chicken ate even (since it seems to be brand specific). I’m a raw feeder of multiple dogs (I have six of my own right now and foster) for over 10 years by the way. My Pom gets ulcerative colitis (bright red blood in diarrhea (her’s is almost liquid though)). Chicken is what sets my girl off (only the muscle meat – she is fine with eggs, liver, kidneys etc).

Sensitivities can manifest after the dog (or person) has been on the food for a while. A protein in certain foods, called a lectin, can bind with the gut wall and cause disease. Initially it binds with IgA (an immune system antigen) but eventually the body is not capable of producing enough IgA to bind with the lectin and then you see symptoms. Typical allergy tests test for IgE immunoglobulins so they can’t detect food sensitivities (which are actually much more common than IgE allergies). I understand that the food he gets better on is “boiled chicken” but boiling (at least with legumes) leaches some of the lectins from the food making less for the body to have to deal with. OR possibly the boiled chicken is different than the one causing the IBD because of something the chicken ate (organic grains fed to livestock have lectins too).

Okay, that was just one thought. The other is that the raw chicken drumstick and thigh diet is not a balanced diet. I know, I know……eye rolls and oh not one of those must be balanced nuts. 🙂 hee hee But there really is something to it. Dark meat chicken is an excellent source of linoleic acid (the omega 6 fat that is necessary for health). However when LA is over-consumed and/or not consumed in balance with omega 3 fats it can be quite inflammatory. Although a good source of LA, chicken is deficient in saturated fatty acids which the body also needs. You don’t mention organs which supply other nutrients. This may or may not be a direct cause but it certainly could be an indirect cause.

Hope, whatever it is, you can get it figured out and get back to wonderful health.

[Ken Y]

I feel as if your response is a little bit of an over reaction.. I appreciate the information provided and did read through some of it, but I have done plenty of research of my own before choosing to put my dog on a raw diet. As indicated, he was perfectly fine for the first 4-5mo without incidents. Are you yourself familiar with the idea and benefits of the raw diet?

As for his condition, there’s a big difference between ‘bloody’ and ‘spots of blood’ in his stool.

“FIELD GUIDE
While normal stools can be many shades of brown, some abnormalities in color and consistency may indicate an underlying problem.

1. Streaks of bright red blood and/or mucus on the surface of a mostly normal, formed stool. This is generally caused by inflammation in the large intestine, where mucus is secreted to help protect the intestinal lining. While this does not necessarily indicate an emergency, it’s a good idea to keep a close eye out for further changes in your dog’s behavior and stool.

2. Soft-formed to liquid brown diarrhea, with or without streaks of blood. “Cow patty” and “soft-serve ice cream” are two frequent descriptors. As with the previous type, it is generally not life-threatening as long as there are no other signs of concern and it begins to improve within 24 to 48 hours. If your dog is acting normally otherwise— eating well, not vomiting, good attitude —a wait-and-see home approach may be tried (more on this to follow). Here again, red blood indicates inflammation and bleeding in the colon but does not necessarily mean that your pet is bleeding internally, as is often thought. This is a step up in concern from the previous condition, in the sense that the stool is now softer.

3. A large volume of bloody, watery, diarrhea. This one does require immediate evaluation by your veterinarian, especially with smaller dogs, as it can be an indicator of a common condition called hemorrhagic gastroenteritis, or HGE. (Read more about it here: thebark.com/hge) Tissue sloughing from the intestines gives it a distinctive appearance, and it’s often described as “raspberry jam” diarrhea.”

[Gracee Sunshine Alexiss]

I want to first apologize for my previous 2 posts as I think I should have posted them in a different part of the forum. Thank you for being patient and and answering my questions anyway. ok are breed specific brands such as royal canin any better than Blue Buffalo? and is a dry kibble better than wet? or should there be a combinatio? anyway I think she may have a skin allergy Im still investigating that. If you read my previous post you read that I gave my 8 week old a grape that she ate a pretty good part of and played with the rest for an hour or so to find out a month later to my absolute horror that they are quite toxic. I mention that as I am worried about kidney damage but have yet to make a move concerning that because of personal issues right now. She was also fed an adult type dog food not sure what kind I havent been able to contact my aunt as she is on vacation. I transitioned her the best I could to Wellness Tru Food she didnt seem to like it too much especially the little yellow pieces avoiding them completely but she is now coming close to the end of the bag and i want to gradually get her on a food that is allergen free and tasty. I feed her grilled chicken with her food every now and then and sometime for reward when training. She gets hiccups fequently but they subside quickly and doesnt seem to cause her any discomfort. Sooo taking all this into consideration….any suggestions and recommendations are greatly appreciated. I am going to ask about food from my vet but i would appreciate experienced suggestions as well. thank you to all who take the time to read my endless and frequent posts. you are greatly appreciated. thank you again,
Michelle and Gracee (my sunshine)

[Gracee Sunshine Alexiss]

Wow thank you all so very much for all your imput. I will try my best to answer all your querries. I was not on the search for a puppy but my aunts female yorkie was in heat and the neighbors male found out before anyone else. Upon finding out she was pregnant they took her to regular vet visits and she gave birth with no complications to 2 females. So my family has been trading puppies for yearz and I was the only one who hadn’t been blessed yet so I was given first choice and I chose my Gracee. Anyway yes she was fed some not so good food for a Lil bit but that by no means makes her a poop pup maybe not from a reputable breeder but a good girl otherwise. Now I do have one terrible thing to confess… After acquiring her at 8 weeks I was eating some big fat green GRAPES and it was really hot that first day and I did it I gave her a grape and yes she ate some and licked some juice. To my absolute horror about a month later I had ran across an article that said grapes and raisins are extremely toxic and can cause almost immediate kidney failure. I felt so bad but figured the damage was already done and I never noticed any Wierd behavior or anything during that time. Course I wouldn’t know what to look for but being a lab tech I am taking her in this week to get her kidney functions and possibly her fasting lipids checked. Ok so yes she is on Revolution and she is due for her next dose how ever I’d like to get her on something that lasts a Lil longer. I heard tossing eucalyptus leaves and or twigs bark or branches into strategic places can eliminate most fleas is this true? And as far as I know her parents don’t have mange of any kind. she was treated for round, pin, whip, and one other kind and then I had to get a specific treatment for the tape ickees and got rid of them they seemed to be the worst and drove my baby nuts keeping her up all night… stupid things. I check her every night for re infestation but so far so good. And no bloating is apparent. I do think a fecal sample and skin scraping will also be done on our next visit. Even though worms may not be present there ovas may be which means new hatchlings. I apologize for not answering every question asked but wanted to keep this post a Lil shorter. I will reread the correspondences again and try to give the info asked for. Thank you all so much for caring about my baby. I’m so greatful to have found this forum. Oh wait so she is due for her 3rd and last vaccination so I should hold off on this last one to make sure it’s not related to her itchyness? I think her itchyness for the most part is from using human shampoo and water that was too warm and bathing her too much I started at 8 weeks and bathed her almost once a week I was told that was excessive and hind site usually being 20/20 I agree. I was also wondering if the 1rst 2nd and 3rd vaccines are the same and if not whats the difference? and is she gonna get her rabies this time? and is it possible for me to purchase the vaccine myself and give it to her myself? oh and I took her for a walk (in my arms) I forgot we have a couple flocks of wild turkeys that walk through the neighborhood and next door had homing pigeons that still stick around and nest we also have owls hawks turkey vultures skunks racoons possums and they all leave droppings is this an extra problem that she might need a different vaccine for possibly? the lepto vaccine? and next year she will be camping with us in the Stanislau National Forest where there are bears and deer. I might as well throw this in as well I have access to fresh venison pretty much the whole deer season is this good for my growing yorkie? if so how much and how often and how should I serve it to her? and can she eat the bones? horns? hoofs? is there anyother part of the animal that may or may not be good for her. thank you all so much for all your valuable information.
respectfully,
Michelle and Gracee (my sunshine)

[Fiona Z]

I had my black lab on this for a month. She is 7 and in great shape. I thought it was a good idea and she was already on pro plan. I thought I noticed a difference in her energy levels and thought she was more alert. Precious lazy lab! Then after two weeks unbearable scratching and horrendous gas!two weeks of it and took her to the vet he said she was allergic to something and have her different antihistamine (I’d tried Zyrtec and Benedryl and it usually works) anyway long story shorter… She was better within the day and no gas! I went on the forum and read all about the ingredients and changed her food to a Blue brand basics. I didn’t like how we eat whole foods and I had her eating this long list! So my question for you guys is what can I add to her food myself? That would mimic the bright minds idea?
Sorry if there are typos I’m on my phone and the screen isn’t letting me edit. Thanks Fiona!

[anonymously]

In response to: “I am sold on any of this just like human docs I believe they too get kick backs on stuff they sell”.

Excerpt from: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2015/08/veterinary-medicine-is-a-business-and-that-includes-alternative-medicine/
“The bottom line is that financial bias is a real issue in veterinary medicine at all levels, and it has to be investigated and managed. However, this is not the same as saying there is widespread fraud or a sinister conspiracy involving vets and companies that do business with them. There is no reason to believe that the majority of vets are doing anything other than the best they can to help their patients and clients. And there is absolutely no reason to believe vets offering alternative therapies are any less subject to financial bias or any purer in their motivation or behavior than vets practices science-based medicine”.

[Susan]

Hi Samantha, go shops, buy some chicken breast or lean turkey breast mince lightly cook till its just cooked cause the chicken breast can go tuff if over cooked then cut up, I also add a bit of boiled sweet potatoes not much take to the vets & ask can this be feed instead of the vet diet, cause she isn’t eating…. the Hills I/D Gastro is still high in fat at 14% if its the Hills I/D Gastro the pink label there’s the Hills I/d Low Fat GI Restore & the fat is lower 8.5% find out which one she is eating… if your on Face Book join this group “Canine Pancreatitis Support Group” these ladies will help you & your baby, what to ask vet, what are good low fat foods, no more kibble, as kibble is harder to digest she will need wet tin foods or cooked meals all low in fat also the fat on wet tin foods are higher then what the fat is on a bag of kibble, if the wet tin food says 5% fat on a tin, when converted to kibble fat that’s around 22% fat dry matter (Kibble)….
Hills Vet Diets convert all their Vet Diets they have already been done, but all the other vet diets aren’t convert or the pet shop foods…. so be careful & remember if you see 5% fat on a tin, its high you need 3%max fat & under in wet tin foods.. there’s the Royal Canine Low Fat Intestinal she may eat that one… the fat is only 7% fat …..also visit her & take her brother, it will boost her spirits ….Good Luck