question about dog metabolism of protein

Dog Food Advisor Forums Canine Nutrition question about dog metabolism of protein

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  • #11529 Report Abuse

    billhill
    Participant

    I have a question about supplementing dry kibble. I’ve begun to supplement kibble, alternating things such as hardboiled eggs + greenbeans, canned kirkland cuts in gravy, canned unsalted sardines, etc. I understand the point that variation and addition of high quality protein are good. This also makes my puppies happy (2 yr old corgie/lab, 2 yr old beagle/walker hound).

    In the 1970’s and 80’s, I learned about the phenomenon of protein “complementarity” in human diets, i.e. protein supplements and combinations from different sources (EXAMPLES: beans and rice in Mexican cuisine, rice and lentils in Indian cuisine). If a specific amino acid is low in one source, it can be balanced out by the proteins in another source. I’m no longer a strict vegetarian, but I can attest from personal experience that this works. I still love vegetarian food.

    QUESTION 1: Does this work for dogs? Can adding eggs increase the benefit of other proteins in the doggie bowl?

    QUESTION 2: Do dogs have a “preferential” metabolism that burns carbs before proteins? If so has inclusion of carbs been shown to reduce the benefit of proteins in the dogs’ diets?

    QUESTION 3: How would I calculate the impact of adding dried egg white or canned sardines to the kibble of each of my roughly 30 lb dogs in terms of additional protein, protein as % weight. Each gets 1 cup of small bites kibble, twice a day.

    Looking forward to informed opinions. Thanks.

    Bill

    #11532 Report Abuse

    Toxed2loss
    Participant

    Hi Bill,
    Shawna is actually your best reference for that question here, I’ll let her know you’ve asked this question just to be sure. In the mean time I’d suggest you look at Steve Brown’s “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” I think you’ll find it pretty fascinating. He taps a lot about balancing fats to protein types, and carbs digesting straight to glucose, and blocking good nutrition. I got my ebook copy at amazon for something lie $10. It was well worth it!! Hope that helps!

    #11543 Report Abuse

    billhill
    Participant

    Thank you Toxed, I just ordered the book in hard copy. Other replies are most welcome.

    Bill

    #11544 Report Abuse

    Shawna
    Member

    Hi Bill 🙂

    1. The reason plant based proteins are combined, as you know, is that some are deficient in one essential amino acid or another. By combining you can get representation of all essentials. My problem with this is that if not done well it can still cause an excess of others making the entire protein content less bioavailable. Bioavailability is the ability of the body to use the amino acids from the proteins we eat. Egg has 100% bioavailability — ALL the amino acids in an egg are used leaving none to become blood urea nitrogen for the kidneys to have to filter. When we combine foods we’re bound to have an excess of some and a proper representation of others. The body is then going to have an excess of some that it can’t use and these become blood urea nitrogen. This isn’t a bad thing unless the eater has kidney disease.

    All animal based proteins already have all essential amino acids so combining is not really as necessary. However some have more of one and less of another — turkey, as an example, is a good source of tryptophan. Adding animal based protein to any kibble is a good idea and mixing up the proteins makes sense (different amino acids, different fat representations etc). You can not over feed protein to a healthy dog. What they can not use they will safely eliminate causing no harm.

    It’s best to feed eggs raw as cooking them can denature the protein in the whites and destroy the omega 3 in the yolk. If feeding whites only you must cook them as the avidin in the white binds to the B vitamin biotin and can cause a deficiency. The yolk is high in biotin so when feeding together avidin is now believed to not be an issue.

    2. I don’t think that carbs reduce the benefit of protein (with an exception) but rather they take the place of the much more needed protein. It is well known, and mentioned in the teaching books like Waltham, that dogs have NO nutritional need for carbs. Adding carbs displaces the macronutrients they do need — fat and protein. Dogs can derive glucose from protein and fat. Carbs (starch) is added to kibble more because kibble can not be made without starch than a dietary need. I do think that in our modern world the antioxidants, vitamins etc in high quality carbs (veggies and fruit) can be of great benefit when used in small amounts though.

    The exception I mentioned above — there is a theory that carbs and proteins digest at different rates, and more importantly, at different acid/base levels. Lou and Marilyn Diamond had a very interesting book out in the 80’s called “Fit for Life”. From memory, the theory is that carbs (starch) digest in an alkaline environment and protein in acid. This is true but I don’t know if one impedes the other. Example — if a high starch diet prevents the stomach from producing enough HCL to activate the pepsin protein in the stomach that digests the protein.. If this is true than excess, or any, starch can make protein digestion more difficult. Carbs could be eaten but not at the same meal as protein and visa versa. Fruit had to be eaten alone and non-starchy carbs (aka certain veggies) could be eaten with protein or starchy meals. I tried this and I do think it improved digestion considerably but it was difficult to maintain and after about 8 months I gave it up never to retry.

    3. I’m sure there’s a way to easily figure out the percent but math is not my strong suit so I’ll leave that to someone with stronger math skills :). I will say however that I don’t think you need to worry about it. Those of us that feed raw, myself and Toxed included, feed protein amounts in excess of 50%. What you do want to be congniscent of is not to add more than 20% of ANY food that is not balanced to an already balanced diet. Doing so can throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and that could be bad..

    I am HORRIBLY sorry if this post makes little to no sense…?? I’m watching my 1 and 2 year old grand kids and they make concentration and focus near impossible.

    Thank you Toxed for your vote of confidence!!!!! 🙂 Love you girl!!

    #11545 Report Abuse

    Shawna
    Member

    Steve Brown’s book is awesome… I have the hard copy too 🙂 I don’t remember reading his thoughts on carbs impeding digestion.. May be time for a re-read.

    #11546 Report Abuse

    DogFoodie
    Member

    Wow, Bill! That is a fascinating question!

    I’ve heard you guys talking about this book for some time now. I’m throwing it in my amazon shopping cart right now.

    #11547 Report Abuse

    Toxed2loss
    Participant

    Wow Betsy! You are hungry for knowledge!!! You go girl!!

    (Shawna, I think we’ve created a monster! LOL) Love you, too Shawna!!

    & You’re welcome Bill. 🙂

    #11549 Report Abuse

    Shawna
    Member

    Yeah Toxed I noticed that earlier today when Betsy and Patty were talking.. I was going to post a comment but ran out of time and was only able to “like” both comments :).. Betsy, Patty, Labs and several others are like little sponges. I wish I could absorb info that quickly and easily!!! 🙂

    PS — CONGRATS on the good news about Sam Betsy!!!!!!!!!! Hope the pano is very short lived..

    #11574 Report Abuse

    billhill
    Participant

    I guess another question would be to what extent I can generalize from human to canine digestion about carbs, protein, etc. I need to do a lot more reading!! I might chime in again after that. Thanks everyone!

    Bill

    #11641 Report Abuse

    bully4me
    Participant

    Hi everyone, I’m new on here! I have a question for all of you: You’ve heard of the Beasty Boys? I have a yeasty boy. My male bulldog, a rescue and I’m almost 100% certain a puppy mill dog, is over-run with yeast issues. Smelly ears full of gunk, crusty eyes, rashes on belly. Any suggestions for a good dry food for him? Thank you in advance!

    #11642 Report Abuse

    theBCnut
    Member

    I and a few others on here have been through the same thing and found help with Brothers Complete Allergy Formula. It really helps. Go to ****************.com and read their Brothers Document and their FAQs to find out more.

    #11648 Report Abuse

    billhill
    Participant

    As an interim measure, cleaning or irrigating the ears with a solution of one third apple cider vinegar and t wo thirds water works well. NOT FOR THE EyES!!Yeast is an opportunistic organism that is everywhere so you have to get to the cause to stop it completely.

    Bill

    #11748 Report Abuse

    bully4me
    Participant

    Thank you Patty and Bill! I will definitely check out that website for dog food. I have never heard of it, so am anxious to research it. And thanks, Bill. I will make up a solution of acv and water and try it. I do have a solution purchased through my vet, but am always anxious to find “home remedies.”
    Thank you for your responses!

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