[Barbara O]

I got several posts on the subject of Primal..I feed the Primal frozen…It is raw meat and veggies…with supplements added. It is manufactured in a facility that passes inspection for human food manufacture…The product is wonderful. I have a small spotted genet that eats it daily. I have mixed it in cat kibble and dog kibble…My friend has a dog that is very picky and it is a big dog…she mixes the duck with the kibble and the dog eats it like candy… I travel with it frozen. If you order it frozen…order as much as you can afford…that way the shipping will be cheaper. Check your local feed stores…those that carry dog and cat food…Also…check with any of your pet shops. I’ve found it in odd places when we travel. When they ship it, it is packed in dry ice…I order organic, grass fed beef for my husband and me and it is shipped from the midwest to hot Arizona in July…always comes completely frozen…ready for my freezer. By adding the Primal to the diet, you are assured of getting everything your animal needs…and you can add your own fruits and veggies to the food…I am assured the kibble, even if it is plant based, meets my Dane’s and genet’s needs…and they both are shiny and healthy. Have been raising and caring for animals longer than many of you have been alive…have a heavy background in animal nutrition in my undergraduate degree plus a few vet courses under my belt as well as human food chemistry courses…have tried to stay up with the research…Don’t believe everything your vet tells you…any vet that tells me how good Science Diet is, I run away from….Am fortunate I have a vet that has taken care of all my exotics and will call over the US getting answers to questions we might both have…have raised raccoon, ring tails, Fennec foxes…had some of the oldest in captivity…due to diligence in diet….both were spoiled pets….a animal fed a well balanced diet with added good oils and digestive enzymes, etc., is one who’s immune system is going to keep them healthy….Remember…corn, wheat and soy are not good for dogs…and raw bones to gnaw on are a blessing…cleans teeth and gives them B vitamins they need….They don’t have people stomachs…they have a straight tube so don’t give them too much variety at a time….They are a carnivore….not a cow…they have teeth for tearing…not for grinding…And….when the diet is high in protein and low in carbohydrate, the back yard is much easier to clean…

[Dori]

I use Perfect Form from THK. I just mix it in with their food anytime I notice that Hannah has loose stools and it pretty much works immediately. Having cancer I think her digestion isn’t what it used to be with all the canine cancer supplements I’ve been giving her. I’d like to back off and see if that’s what’s causing the loose stools but afraid to stop the cancer supplements. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Anyway, I got off thread there for a second. Perfect Form works really really well. I just mix the appropriate dose in with their food. My girls are eaters so I guess the smell just doesn’t bother them. I’m not crazy about the smell, but, hey…if you’ve ever fed tripe, this is nothing compared to that.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Desiree,

The values for BUN are different in raw fed dogs. While your dog’s BUN does seem high, his Creatinine is low normal. Most conventional vets aren’t aware of the different values – I had to share the correct values with two of the vets at the clinic I go to. Here is a great article that explains three values that will be different:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/normal-blood-values-and-raw-fed-dogs/ At their site, they also have a series of free raw feeding videos that should help you keep him on track and you can search their articles for natural ways to address his BUN value.

Since he doesn’t have teeth, you can help supplement his calcium with whole raw eggs. Just crush the shell with the back of a spoon so that the shell is essentially little flat pieces, not totally pulverized. I would also try chicken backs and ribs. I would begin with cutting away the spine and just give him the soft smaller bones. Once his gums have toughened up a bit he might be able to gnaw the spine and neck in order to get his 10% bone.

A proper raw diet consists of 80% protein (heart is considered a protein, not an organ), 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other organs – pancreas, spleen, testicles, kidneys… Except that you might be trying to feed a raw diet based on AAFCO guidelines for commercial food, I don’t know why you’re adding greens and veggies at this point. Are there other issues besides the elevated BUN? Have you been feeding greens and veggies for the entire six months? I would definitely add a digestive enzyme supplement to his diet, probiotics won’t hurt as well. Mercola makes supplements that I and many others have had good success with.

Dogs Naturally Magazine will be hosting their second weekend-long internet conference in the Fall. They have a Facebook page that, if you “Like”, will keep you up-to-date and let you know when you can sign up. I attended the first one at the end of January and will be signing up for this one as well. Additionally, you’ll then have access to a private group of like-minded owners, nutritionists and homeopaths who all respond to concerns just like yours with personal experience as well as professional opinion.

[DogFoodie]

Thank you so much, Jan! Bella will be three on August 9th.

I really appreciate your insight.

It’s interesting that you mention Laverne’s reverse sneezing, because we’ve had a couple of episodes of that within the last few weeks as well. Bella only has done that one other time before. Bella doesn’t cough either and it sounds like her allergy symptoms are a lot like Laverne’s. I’m wondering if I’m confusing congestion with heavy breathing, her snoring has definitely been worse lately.

Interestingly to me, I stopped giving them the Springtime Fresh Factors and Spirulina wafers several weeks ago. Sam was getting so picky and I was just trying to feed him something he would eat – somehow he could always manage to leave the spirulina in the bottom of his bowl. I didn’t really think the Springtime stuff was doing anything and maybe now, I realize that it must’ve been helping Bella. I’ll start that back up right away. She’s much noisier than usual and her eyes are weepy also.

They checked her heart very thoroughly before putting her under general anesthesia, but I agree and understand that a murmur can also seem to come “out of nowhere.” Fortunately, my vet is aware of my concern about cardiac issues and I would definitely start with her if I became worried. Luckily, I have lots of vet specialists in my area so if I were to need to see a cardiologist, I know I would have access to some.

So far, I’ve just tried to feed good food with good ingredients and I’ve always looked for added taurine for Bella. Fortunately, with two young healthy dogs, I haven’t needed to add many supplements to “treat” a health condition so the normal nutritional extras have just been the regular things; ie: coconut oil; ACV, etc. A long time ago, I talked to my TCVM vet about cardiac supplements for Bella (he carries Thorne and Standard Process), but he said he wouldn’t use the big gun cardiac stuff unless it was necessary. I did ask about CoQ10 and I seemed to recall he liked that. I looked at the Mercola Ubiquinol and wanted to start that back then, but I had problems with the pump bottle that the krill oil came in that was just like it, so I shied away from ordering it. I have to hold off on ordering it until I get a big Discover bill from this month paid off first. : )~ Plus, I want to see if the Fresh Factors will help without changing anything else first.

Sorry, Laverne’s having problems! I don’t usually have issues with allergies in the summer myself, but this year I have. I’ve cleared my throat constantly for over a month now. Last week I felt so worn out, I ended up scheduling a day off this past Friday. I wonder if maybe Laverne’s allergies are taking the fight out of her immune system right now and it’s resulting in some of the other things she has going on? I wouldn’t think the Firm Up was “hurting” would you? I wonder if the apple pectin could be too high in sugars or something.

Bella has always done very well on Wellness foods. The difference that I can literally see in her eyes (there’s less tearing and the whites of her eyes become clearer) is amazing. I think I will go ahead and get some more of that for her. (There’s always an excuse to buy more food, isn’t there. ; ) I wrote to Wellness and told them last time she ate their food about her eyes, but they didn’t want to take too much credit for it. This time, I’m going to take a before and after picture for them!

Thanks for the update on your crew! They’re very lucky pups to be in your hands. : )

[Mom2Cavs]

Hi, Betsy. It very well may be seasonal….Laverne has started with some itching and anal glands again, even though her stool is normal!? She was just at the vets this past Thurs. because I noticed a bump on one of her front legs. The vet expressed her glands and said they were bad, ugh. Vet said it’s probably staph and could even be caused by shampoo being left on and not drying properly or fully (this was said because of where the infection is located). She gave me some muricin salve to rub on the bump. But I may call and get an oral antibiotic for her, as well. Don’t usually like them but want to be sure this doesn’t turn into something even more difficult. Laverne is mine that has allergies, of course, and who snores a lot. She also does reverse sneezing at times. She has a murmur, about 3-4/6, (came on about 2 years ago) but doesn’t cough . Her nose runs sometimes (again allergies). She is eating Wellness Small Breed Simple for kibble and Wellness Stews or Weruva or Simply Nourish for canned topper. I have been giving the Firm Up, but was wondering if she has become intolerant of it? It could be lots of things. I do also give them coq10 3 times a week (30 mg). Right now I decided to not change anything in her diet except removing the Firm Up for awhile, and switching probiotics up. Hazel was checked as well and the vet could barely hear her murmur and rated it a 1/2…..she’s had a murmur since birth with no meds. She has no symptoms of anything and doesn’t snore at all. Rupert, who is on enalapril twice a day and has heart disease (MVD) and a grade 5/6 murmur is doing great. He snores occasionally but not that bad and does not cough at all. He has no other symptoms. I would say this is probably seasonal, but if I were you, I would have your vet or Cardiologist (if you have one) check things out thoroughly. I don’t want to scare you, but I think these things can come on suddenly. According to Rupert’s breeder his came on suddenly, but not really sure…maybe just wasn’t caught before now. I also decided to not really try to reduce the sodium (just making sure it’s not on the too high range). Like I said before, the only heart supplement I have been using regularly is coq10. You could also try adding other things, like fish oil, hawthorne, l-carnitine, coq10 and of course taurine, if you’re not doing so already. There are some all inclusive supplements like Bio-Cardio by Thorne, Vetri-Science Cardio Strength. Also Standard Process Cardio is one my vet likes (but they always prescribe Standard Process). I’ve used the all inclusive ones in the past, but recently have been trying to keep things as simple as I can. I’ve probably not answered your question but hope I’ve helped some.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Mom2Cavs.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Alana:
I use the recipe for bone broth (or some variation) from the link that Cyndi provided on a regular basis for my dog, check it out!

As Betsy wrote many on DFA use garlic, I am one of them. In the past I have used Springtime’s Bug Off garlic for pets with no health issues. I now feed my dog fresh garlic 3x/week. As usual I run out of it before I get to the grocery store so I have garlic pills on hand to use when I don’t have fresh garlic. Since using fresh garlic or pills, Sentinel, which contains an ingredient to inhibit flea eggs from maturing, and a daily dose of apple cider vinegar this season my dog has been flea free. I have not had to use a spot on treatment this season; first time since I have had Bobby that I haven’t had to. Here’s some links to information and studies about garlic and dogs:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/
http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs/All-Natural-Dog-Supplements

[Shawna]

Hi Cyndi,

I still haven’t had a chance to read through all the posts (and I’m not sure I’ll get a chance to at least for a few more days) so I’m giving some thoughts not knowing what all has been discussed. Hopefully I can come back soon to read through it all.

If you think it possibly could be a food intolerance than I would eliminate the treats (due to the wheat and barley etc) first as well as any extras that aren’t necessary to the diet —- even the supplements that aren’t necessary to creating a balance.

I also agree with Losul’s comments about excess thyroid hormone in the diet from trachea etc as a possible cause. If you agree, try eliminating this food for a few weeks.

[texasniteowl]

Well…time for an update…not a great one…

Since my last post, we continued with the Orijen Adult. By last Sunday, I had Wilson on all kibble, no chicken and rice. And we seemed to be doing well. Pretty good poo, etc. Now, let me clarify, no supplements of any kind at this point. No probiotics. Just kibble…Orijen Adult.

Let me also make sure I clarify that I had been feeding him on a 3x a day schedule, so 3 smaller meals.

Anyway, we seemed to be doing pretty good. Some variation in poo softness but overall good.

However, the last 2 nights (Saturday & Sunday) we have gone downhill a bit. Late at night, just before his last meal (aka midnight snack) he has gone outside to eat grass…which he had not been doing in about a month or so now. And his poo is destabilizing. The first stuff out will look OK and then becomes much softer. Not watery as far as I’ve seen, but very very soft. And he moves around quite a bit and ends up poo-ing in 3 to 4 spots.

Now, with his midnight snack tonight, I’ll add some pumpkin in. Is it time to try something like The Perfect Form? Next, I need to get some probiotics I guess. Any suggestions for ones that are available locally in stores? Or something that ships quick? Like I said above, my feed store sells Probios but I wondered about the sugar content. I do have some Kefir in the fridge…should I try to start him on that?

I guess the other question is, instead of adding supplements, do I give up on the Orijen and move him to something else?

And I suppose I could take a poo sample back to my vet and ask them to look at the bacteria again?

[Gail W]

I don’t have recommendations for tasty food, but can offer a short synopsis of our experience. We supported our Yorkie for the last 6 of his 16 years. We were able to keep him otherwise healthy, happy and maintained a solid quality of life with this disease. It was found early and we managed it aggressively with meds, food, and supplements. Started with KD kibble to KD moist as he aged and condition progressed over the years. He ultimately hated all the KD moist foods and we worked with a vet nutritionist at NCSU to develop recipes made at home – she created formulas that had interchangeable ingredients in case he became bored/picky (as opposed to anorexic from uremia). The addition of Azodyl seemed to help early on. He was switched from enalapril to benazepril, as it is supposedly easier on the kidneys, in addition to other meds. In talking to a holistic vet, they usually give an herbal supplement with enalopril to help protect the kidneys (I can’t remember which one). As you mentioned, phosphorus was the biggest thing we watched for – egg whites only & other lower phosphorus proteins. Each dog is different, but you know your pup best. Watch for changes and address quickly. Best of luck with Kelci!

[DogFoodie]

Your topical pest control sounds good. Any other potential environmental allergies? Yard applications (natural, like neem oil or otherwise)? Household products; ie: carpet or floor cleaners, detergents, air fresheners? Did you get her a new bed…

You know, I was going to use the Mercola Natural Defense that you’re using, but couldn’t. I sent it back, unopened. I never smelled it. I wonder if it could be that the essential oils in that are too stimulating. ??

Her diet sounds great. Did you add any of the pre-mixes or supplements, like the garlic, shortly before the itching began?

The only health issue that comes to mind is thyroid. Is that a possibility?

[pugmomsandy]

He doesn’t need to switch to adult food. Personally I feed puppy food to all ages. Adding a multi-strain probiotic and digestive enzymes will help him to digest better even though the food has them in it already. Sometimes they lose their potency with the kibble making process. And kibble is just hard and dry and can take several hours to break down and the dog digestive system is fast so dense kibble sometimes doesn’t get broken down enough. And the undigested protein makes powerful gas! My pup used to have terrible gas too. After being on probiotics for a while he should get more efficient with digestion. I’d give the supplement with each meal for several weeks and see how he does. My group only gets supplements once or twice a week and only if they eat kibble.

[Hound Dog Mom]

There’s not much data supporting the efficacy of glucosamine or chondroitin, however some people swear by it and it’s harmless enough so it wouldn’t hurt to try. Human supplements are fine, just adjust the dosage accordingly. Some other supplements to try would bee MSM, curcumin, omega 3’s, boswellia or an system enzyme supplement (like Medizym). You could also talk to your vet about adequan injections.

[Corinne M]

Hi Liz,
I just read your post – I’m so sorry, I know it is anxiety producing to find a lump on your dog!! Here’s what I know, hopefully it will make you feel better until you can get to the vet…I’ve had Golden Retrievers in the past who developed fatty tumors (lipomas) as they got older. That was back in the days before I was feeding homemade & raw. The vet would always say that its nothing to worry about, it was common for the breed and as long as it didn’t bother the dog leave it alone. Back then, that’s what I did – and I can honestly say that those dogs lived long happy lives & for the most part I don’t think the lipomas ever really bothered them and certainly didn’t interfere with their quality of life. Then about 4 years ago, I had 2 Golden Retriever puppies – and 1 of them developed a lump that was BIG. And he was young. My initial thought was, “well, he’s a Golden & they are prone to these things”. But it just felt really wrong to me in such a young dog – and sure enough, when the vet did a needle biopsy on him, the result was different, this time it was not fatty, but was blood filled – called a sarcoma. Turns out this dog had a really weak immune system, and the lump was right at the injection site where he had his latest vaccines. The good news is, we caught it early and it alerted me to a bigger issue – his immune system. That’s when I changed diet, vaccines, etc. When you go to the vet, you’ll know more – it may be just another fatty bump, but the location seems to indicate that maybe its related to the vaccine or the chip implant. His body may be responding to the foreign “stuff” that was injected, and the bump may resolve as his body recovers and assimilates it. But if it’s a reaction, that’s something to pay attention to – most dogs don’t get a reaction, so you may want to look into why yours did this time. Maybe it’s a fluke, or maybe there are ingredients in the vaccine that your dog doesn’t tolerate well. That was the case for my dog. But there’re some things that I’ve discovered along the way – first, not all dogs can tolerate the “one size fits all” vaccine protocol. And there are alternatives, such as titer testing, following a “minimal” protocol, and using only thimerosal-free vaccines when you do have to vaccine. I’ve had many friends tell me their vets “don’t do” titer testing or thimerosal-free… but there are labs that you can use, where you get the lab order from them, have your vet do the blood draw & have your vet send the blood to them for titer testing. It’s no different from what your vet already does – they are just shipping to your lab of choice instead of to their usual lab. Same thing with the vaccine – you order it and have it sent to your vet in advance. The other thing is, the reaction my dog had gave me a “heads-up” to have his immune system checked. There’s a great organization called Hemopet (www.hemopet.org) that did a comprehensive immune system analysis on my dog & the director, Dr. Jean Dodds did a personal review for no additional cost – she sent me a report that explained the results in great detail and provided me with a list of supplements to correct his immune deficiency. She talked with me by phone & email over the next couple months while I got my dog stabilized at no additional cost. It completely changed my dogs health and was money well spent!. As an aside, the immune testing order form doesn’t come up on their website so you’ll have to call or email and ask them how to order it. Again, your vet draws the blood and sends it to their lab or to Cornell University…I forget which, but the order form has the shipping instructions on it.
Bottom line – the fact that you caught it so early means you can deal with it and get to them bottom of it. Taking charge over it will go a long way toward alleviating the stress and anxiety you are feeling right now. I promise!
Best to you & your pup!

[Corinne M]

Something happened today that really moved me & I thought I would reach out to the dog community and see what happens. Tell me your thoughts – also, share any resources you know about, please.
So here’s the story: I make my own dog food but sometimes I rotate to a commercial (complete) or commercial supplements and I don’t like my ingredients to go to waste – so today, I realized I had enough egg shells on hand to make about two months’ worth of calcium supplement, which I don’t need right now – so I decided to look on Craigslist to see if anyone in my dog community might need it.
On Craigslist, I accidentally came upon a post that said “I NEED DOG FOOD” – it was a few days old, but I sent a reply asking if they had gotten what they need. Turns out, this lady is sort of having a hard time financially, is renting a room from a church & most of her needs are met except dog food. She has 2 weeks before any funds come in. I told her I could bring her a couple weeks of dog food, and I said she could just “pay it forward” for someone else’s pet someday. Well it turns out that she was involved in running a “death row dog rescue” for 20 years – the 2 dogs she has are, as she calls them, “former inmates”. It got me thinking – I know that there are so many people in this country just barely getting by, and I’ve heard from shelter workers that its not uncommon for pets to be surrendered by loving families who just can’t keep up with food costs. After a little research I discovered that “ Meals-on-Wheels” have begun to include pet food delivery, particularly to low income senior citizens because they found that many of their clients were sharing their meals with their pets out of desperation.
So it occurred to me to reach out to the food pantries in my community & the local “Meals on Wheels” to donate pet foods for them to distribute as needed. Maybe someone who reads this will do the same. ..I hope so.
Best, Corinne

[FrenchieBourdeaux]

Hi,
I am new to the forum and I know this question my have been answered and if so I am sorry. I just recently got a Doug De Bordeaux mastiff and I also have French Bulldogs so I am struggling to figure out what the best food would be to feed I feed my Frenchies a Nature’s Logic which they love and do great on mixture of there raw and dry. Ludo the new boy the mastiff came from the breeders eating TOTW which I don’t like to much or trust. Well he loves the Logic and wont eat the large breed puppy food the horizon complete he wants to eat what the girls eat (Frenchies) and the girls want to it his food which they cant. So I was wondering which food I could feed them all with were they would all be happy is Nature;s Logic calcium levels to high for him and if so which one on the list would be good for both to eat the Frenchies have a lot of allergy issues so I get nerves switching but it is not working feeding two different foods. Is the Now Calcium levels to high? And if so which one on the list do you feel would be the best for both breeds. He is 10 Weeks my Frenchies are 1, 5, and 8 years old. And is there any supplements that I should have him on? Sorry for the book..lol.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Karen –

Because he’s a puppy I would suggest feeding him 4% of his body weight – which would be about 3.84 oz. per day. I’d divide this into 3 feedings (about 1.28 oz. per feeding) until he’s 6 months old, at this point in time you could probably start feeding him twice a day. After he’s 6 months old you may need to reduce the amount to closer to 3 or 3.5% of high body weight and after a year you may need to drop him to 2.5-3%. Small breed dogs do tend to require more calories per pound of body weight but just monitor his body condition closely and adjust the amounts he’s fed as necessary – these are all just general guidelines.

Blue Ridge Beef is not a balanced food so it will be necessary to supplement the meals. I can’t locate an ingredient list or nutrient panel anywhere for Dog Bloom so I can’t tell you whether or not that would balance the Blue Ridge grinds – I highly doubt it though. Most pet vitamin/mineral supplements are designed to be fed with a balanced meal so don’t contain high enough levels of certain nutrients.

[Lilmonster]

Hi everyone!

Another lurker here eager and (almost) ready to make the switch to raw. Like other newbies, I have so much respect for everyone here for not only committing so much time and effort to their fur babies, but also taking the time to answer endless, potentially stupid questions from nervous dog moms like me! I would never even have known about raw diets, let alone been able to work up the nerve to take the plunge if it weren’t for this forum, so thanks to all of you!

Some background info: My fiancé and I just adopted our little one, Lily, two months ago from a rescue. She’s 41 lbs and the vet estimates her age at around 1, much younger than the rescue thought – her teeth were pretty yellow when we first got her but presumably because she wasn’t given anything to chew on to clean plaque, so they thought she was 2 yrs 8 months (!), which leads me to think she sadly may have been malnourished as a puppy since they were feeding her as an adult. As soon as we gave her bones and chew toys her teeth became pearly white. Anyway, we switched her to Fromm’s Surf and Turf kibble when we got her, but we noticed she started itching more and more. Took her to the vet to ask about the itchiness as well as a suspected UTI, but the diagnosis for the itching was understandably vague. We’re not sure if it’s a food allergy or environmental – she doesn’t have fleas, and we’re pretty sure it’s not a yeast issue. She doesn’t smell yeasty at all and I think the vet would have picked up on that. So after a recent bout of diarrhea due to too many high fat treats after a training session, I figured it would be a good time to begin the transition to raw after her system cleared up. I fasted her for a meal then fed her a mixture of white rice and pumpkin for two meals, which brought her poos back to normal, then began feeding her a 50-50 mix of ground turkey and pumpkin with the See Spot Live Longer mix added in. The vet is holistic and also trained in Chinese medicine, and she suggested that I switch to beef instead of turkey since chicken and turkey is considered “hot” and could be contributing to the itchiness, so yesterday I made the switch to ground beef and her poo was still fine this morning. But then I remembered reading somewhere (I think on preymodelraw) that it’s not recommended to start with beef, but I think for the time being I’ll stick with it just to avoid changing her diet too many times (unless anyone here would strongly advise against starting with beef?). At the moment, her daily food (divided into two meals) is 1 lb 90% lean ground beef + 2 tbsp SSLL + 1/2 tsp hempseed oil + 1 tsp coconut oil (just started adding it) + 1 human probiotic. She is also currently on a one week course of antibiotics for the urinary problem.

I have Steve Brown’s Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet, ordered the Dr. Becker’s book, and have read through many of the threads on this forum but like other newbies I’m getting lost in all the information and feeling as overwhelmed as Cyndi was in the thread where she first started, lol. I’m thinking of sticking to the ground boneless meat with the See Spot Live Longer mix for a bit while I figure out all the supplements that are needed and place my meat orders. A few questions that I’d really appreciate if someone could help out with:

– I know you can’t add the See Spot Live Longer dinner mix to bone-in meats, but am I also correct in assuming that if I begin adding RMBs in the PM and continue to feed boneless ground meat + See Spot Live Longer mix in the AM that it would be too much calcium? Ideally I’d like to continue using the SSLL simply because it’s the easiest way for me to not have to worry that her nutrition is unbalanced while I’m still learning to balance her meals myself. I did see the most recent topic mentioning CarnivoreRaw but that’s a bit out of my budget. Hound Dog Mom, do you use the Twinlab Daily One with or without iron? Also, I noticed the Twinlab does have calcium in it, does that not matter because the amount is so low? If I choose to go the multivitamin route, can I then add other things like fruits and veggies and such without worrying about overloading on a specific vitamin/mineral or will I have to be careful with what I add?

– This may be a bit much to ask, but if one of the veterans has the time to respond I would be so grateful. Could someone make a list of the essential vitamins/minerals (or alternatively, foods that will provide those vitamins and minerals) that MUST be added to a diet that consists of boneless meat in the AM and RMBs in the PM, and the approximate amounts? This is the part I’m feeling especially in over my head with. Vitamin D, vitamin E, fish oil, manganese, so many different things I’m seeing that they need, it’s hard to not feel kind of scared to do it all from scratch, which is my eventual goal. I think I’m having a hard time figuring out what is absolutely necessary vs. optional but ideal.

– So from what I’ve read so far it seems to be a good idea to start her on chicken backs and quarters, then begin alternating boneless meat every other meal. How many meals should I feed the backs and quarters before I begin incorporating boneless meals? Also, should I already be giving her supplements during this time, or should I wait until she adjusts then begin adding supplements. As for stuff like organ meats, heart, and green tripe, how long should I wait before beginning to incorporate those? I promise I have read the other threads, but I’ve seen a few different recommendations on timelines so I thought I’d pose the question again just so I can be clear about it.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to take the time to answer my questions!

[Corinne M]

Hi Jennifer,
I’m so glad to hear that the info was helpful – I remember how hard & overwhelming it was for me to learn about pancreatitis when it my dog was going through it. So it’s nice to know that someone else can make use of what I learned. I’m sorry to her about your experience with the vet – I think I just lucked out with mine. But I don’t want to leave you with the impression that your vet did anything wrong in prescribing Prednisone, because I think that it’s something that is widely used to treat specific problems, but just like any drug or herbal remedy, there are times & cases when it’s just better to avoid it – an argument could be made that giving your dog a corticosteroid so that he’s not in constant misery from the itchiness is a compassionate thing to do. The flip side is, there are risks associated with using it and if the “itchies” can be eliminated through diet & supplements maybe that’s worth trying.
I also don’t know why they are pushing Royal Canin – maybe they’ve had other dogs do well on it and think it’s the right thing for Milo. But I agree with you, if you suspect it’s triggering allergies it’s worthwhile to look at other foods.
My dog’s are doing great on what I feed them – I alternate between homecooked, home-prepare raw, and commercially prepare raw. But here’s the thing – I only started doing this about 4 years ago because one of my dogs had a blown-out immune system & I had to learn how to feed him in a way that was anti-inflammatory, avoided chemicals, avoided allergens, etc. etc. And to be honest, I have made mistakes along the way that could have done more harm than good (for example, I got the phosphorus/calcium ratio totally wrong for awhile and only discovered it after labwork came back with creatinine levels waaaaay high – I could have caused kidney failure in my dogs if that had not been caught & corrected). And I still consider myself to be learning – so I keep a close eye on them and read everything I can get my hands on and keep it simple and safe. I will do some research for you & report back what I find, but in the meantime, keep up your search for a nutritionally complete & balanced high-quality commercial food that meets the requirements for Milo’s pancreas.
I do think a simple boiled chicken & rice diet is useful when dogs are sick – fewer ingredients to upset their system. But, the recommended fat ratio for a dog with damaged pancreas is REALLY specific so I would only home cook right now if I knew for certain that the recipe I used was safe in terms of fat ratio. The recipe I used after Max had pancreatitis was formulated for me to deal with his other issues but I’ll look for info on a basic safe recipe for you.
BTW: Thanks to the other posters who found my post helpful. I learn so much from you all and from this website! I really appreciate the resources & people here!
Corinne

[Jennifer H]

Thank you, everyone for answering my post. To be honest with you, I never really researched dog foods until he ended up with Pancreatitis. We have always had poodles and none of them ever had issues until Milo. It was when the Pancreatitis happened, that I found this site and began to truly research dog foods. I agree with you magnoliasouth that Natures Recipe is not the best food. I really do not feel right feeding him something I can not eat and is not the best after educating myself on what is truly in pet foods. Truly, I do not know what caused the attack, I am just going by what the vet said, that pig ears are high in fat. Milo had only eaten his grain free dog food, grain free treats and a pig ear before his attack. My neighbors were aware of his allergies and I have again made it clear that he is to have nothing to eat. The vet said that it would be hard to determine exactly what caused the attack, they are just speculating the pig ear is the cause of it. As for the Royal Canin, i stopped it within about 2 days of purchasing the case of it from the vet. I now realize that the vet promotes that junk.

I have looked at the list of low fat/low sodium on here but I am still worried that some of them may still be too high in fat for him. My other worry is with a lot of the limited ingredient diets, there is a lot of starchy foods instead of grain, which promotes yeast. I am still working my way through the list and was not aware of the other thread with the low fat/low sodium foods, so I will look at that as well.

Corinne, your post has been so helpful to me, with lots of information. I do not feel it was preachy at all, but very very helpful. Unfortanately, I am not at all happy with my vet. There answer was and still is “royal canin”. Most of the time, I am speaking with a tech. My vet has dismissed my concerns about Milo’s food allergies and continually states that it’s “season allergies”. Not to seem more knowledgeable then the vet, but I know how Milo acts when he is having a food allergy. I am looking for another vet in the meantime. I did give Milo some Benadryl, but I did not give him the Prednisone after the attack. I honestly didn’t know it could cause Pancreatitis, and I am now wondering why the vet did not know this as well. They actually gave him Prednisone for another issue in April, so I am wondering now if that is what caused the pancreatitis.

With all my recent research, I did read about the pancreatic enzyme, which I am starting to give him. I would love to fed him a homemade diet w/ supplements. Another area I have read a lot about. Corinne, is there any pointers you can give me? Or maybe steer me in the right direction of recipes, supplements, etc. to begin dong this? Also, I have read that Chicken and Rice diet is ok to feed him, while I know it is not balanced, would it be ok to feed him this diet until I have his food situation under control?

You have given me so much direction, I am very thankful and plan on getting to work on as much as I can right away.

[fey W]

Raw is less wasteful, cheaper and much easier. On raw the dog gets to eat zero carbs and chew on bones to naturally keep teeth clean and possibly sugar levels more stable. It is low in ingredients so perfect for allergy prone dogs.

My dog is currently eating cooked food. I had to cook up a whole chicken and bone it, cook up pork and chop those meats, cook up hamburger and rice and mix together along with a small amount of liver and add in a calcium source, some bits of this and that to balance the diet. Then I had to go back to the original amount of raw ingredients to figure out how many meals that would be and divide accordingly so I won’t over/under feed her pack up in 2 day packets and freeze. On raw I give her boneless red meat and every 2-4 days she gets a bit of raw bony meat plus organ along with the same supplements I have to give her with a cooked diet minus the calcium of course. She loves it all but sure has more enjoyment from the raw.

Never heard that dogs get snappy if taken off raw. Many dogs get possessive of raw bits so practicing trading is a great idea. Many people only find out their dogs can be possessive when some delicious raw bony thing is given, even rawhides, bully sticks don’t have the same value.

My lucky never ever had any parasites from raw feeding or fleas or ticks or contaminated water, Sassy once got a tapeworm from eating a flea. Raw meat from the store is very safe. I have always cooked raw meat and it is very easy to keep juices contained and the kitchen clean, lots of water and soap.

A great primer on raw feeding is here.
http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com/prey-model-raw.html

[Corinne M]

Hi Jennifer,
I completely feel for you – it can be overwhelming trying to digest all the information out there when you just want to make your pup feel better! I had a Golden Retriever who had a bout of pancreatitis, and I learned a lot in the process – maybe some of it can help you.
First I had some concerns about Milo reading your post – and I want to address them without sounding preachy or condescending, so please understand that I am approaching this as if you have the level of knowledge that I had when it happened to my dog (very little knowledge). So forgive me if some of this is just plain simplistic and maybe obvious.
I never learned what caused the pancreatitis in my dog – there are theories, but the best experts I talked to said it could have been just plain old bad luck. What there seems to be agreement among the experts is that, once a dog has a single an episode of pancreatitis, everything changes – dietary needs, vaccine protocol, immune support, medication sensitivity, everything… FOR LIFE. That sucks, right? But it’s assumed that the pancreas is now more fragile or less efficient than it once was, and the goal becomes avoiding another bout of pancreatitis.
So you’re already working on the first step – which is diet; low protein, highly digestible, etc. etc. Essentially, a diet that doesn’t stress out his pancreas.
A compromised pancreas essentially means a problem in the digestive tract, which is why I wanted to respond to you. Digestive problems are often tied to things you are describing in Milo, like food sensitivity, itchy skin, loose bowels, yeast infections & immune deficiency. A healthy pancreas releases digestive enzymes into the digestive tract which then help to breakdown the good food you feed him so that his body can utilize all those wonderful nutrients. So the first step that you are already tackling, “what high quality food can I use?” is critical! Unfortunately, I don’t know – I feed homemade – but I trust that you will get some wisdom from this site & through your research will get that answer. But the NEXT steps are equally important, and here’s where I hope my experience can help you.
Part of the dietary changes you must make is supplementing with pancreatic enzymes. Ask your vet or do some research. I used a formula that was specifically recommended for my dog based on tests run by his endocrinologist – and my dog was a 90 pound, 14 year old Golden – so I can’t tell you what’s right for Milo. However, I can tell you that minimally, Dr. Pitcairn’s book says just pick up a human grade digestive enzyme from the vitamin store and give ½ capsule with each meal. That would be better than nothing.
Without proper food digestion, the best, highest quality diet won’t give Milo the nutrients he needs. So don’t skip this step.
Next, vaccine protocol. Dogs with compromised pancreas should follow a more “minimal” vaccine protocol. Ask your vet, or google Dr. Jean Dodd’s vaccine protocol to get additional information.
Immune support: here’s where I think Milo really would benefit from your research and discussions with your vet. The food symptoms you describe (itchy skin, loose stools, yeast imbalance, etc.) sound to me like two things going on: 1) problems in the gut – which will be dealt with thru diet & supplements; and 2) a weak immune system. The skin is a wonderful organ for telling us when our dogs’ immune systems are struggling. A dog with a healthy immune system will be pretty resilient when it comes to yeast & other skin flare ups. A balanced complete diet, fully digested with the help of enzymes may go a long way toward giving him relief – but you probably need to look into some immune support supplements to help him recover initially. Ask your vet, or look into having his immune system tested at http://www.hemopet.org the lab report will include a review by Dr. Dodds who can suggest a specific immune support protocol for Milo. I used Moducare (Thorne Labs) plus other specific herbs & vitamins.
Medication sensitivity: And here is where you are not going to like me…Prednisone is not something I would give to a dog 30 days after pancreatitis. I absolutely understand why it was prescribed (to make your itchy dog less miserable), and frankly, I don’t know of any substitute that will do the trick. The problem is, Prednisone is a corticosteroid and can actually trigger a bout of pancreatitis. It is absolutely not safe for Milo right now…sorry. Google it or ask your vet if this seems like questionable advise – but I can’t stress enough, NO PREDNISONE.
I hope you take this in the spirit offered – advice from a fellow pet owner who adores her pets. And hope Milo is on the mend soon!
Corinne

[Corinne M]

I say maybe it is, maybe it’s not. More importantly, your vet says it is…or rather, your vet says your dog needs a specific diet right now to address the BUN/Creatinine results. Feeding a raw or homemade diet is the “best thing” for your dog only if it is supporting your dog’s wellness. Creating a nutritionally complete recipe plus providing the right supplements is tricky — especially when your trying to address kidney issues. There are many exceptional commercially prepared foods (look at 5 start rated reviewed foods here on this site) that might be better suited for your dog right now – could be raw, freeze-dried, canned or dry. The point is, it needs to specifically address the health problem. The other things I would look into & discuss with my vet would be:
– how did these test results compare to his prior bloodwork?
-did he fast before having the blood drawn?
-what did his other levels look like? Calcium? Phosphorus? Sodium:Potassium ratio?
– Is his BUN level in the “normal range for raw-fed dogs?
– was protein detected in the urine sample?
And I would ask my vet, “If I were to change his diet as you suggest, what do you expect we will see on the next test? How long do you think it will take to see a change?”
I feed raw. I’m an advocate of feeding raw. At the same time, I trust my vet and when he tells me there is an issue I tend to believe him.

[pugmomsandy]

I give one scoop of Mercola Bladder Support which has 75 mg of d-mannose and 75 mg of cranberry and other supplements. I’ve also given a 250 mg capsule of just d-mannose a couple times a week.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Fish oil is one product in which I don’t recommend trying to take the cheap way out. It’s important to only purchase high quality, human-grade supplements from reputable suppliers – avoid generic brands/store brands. Carlson’s and Nordic Naturals are two very good brands that I have used and would use again. You want to be sure your fish oil contains an antioxidant such as vitamin e or astaxanthin to help prevent oxidation. With the exception of the few companies that use airless pumps, I would avoid fish oil in pump dispensers (the pumps let it air and promote oxidation). Make sure to refrigerate the fish oil and dispose of any unused fish oil after 2-3 months (so in otherwise, avoid purchasing in bulk). I also testing the freshness every week or so, break a capsule open and smell it and squirt a little on your tongue to taste it. If it smells fishy and/or tastes extremely fishy (it will taste slightly fishy) it’s rancid – toss it! There’s also the option of mixing tinned sardines and/salmon into your dogs food for omega 3’s. This is what I usually do.

[Corinne M]

Hi Amy,
I’m sorry to hear about your pup’s troubles. You asked about things that can boost his immune system – here’s a link to an excellent article on the subject: http://www.victoriabenda.com/articles/jDodds/immune.shtml

You can have testing done to pinpoint immune issues; I had Dr. Dodds do my dog’s testing because I was referred to her by my vet. Based on the test results, my dog was taking
* Plant Sterols (Moducare, Thorne Labs)
*Turmeric/curcumin supplement (Merina)
*Vitamin E d-alpha tocopheral
*Vitamin C / Ester C
The daily amounts were specific to my dog & based on weight, so you would need to consult a vet for correct dosages for your dog. There is a list at the end of the article that includes other immune support supplements.
Good luck!
Corinne

[Corinne M]

Hi Ashlee,
I feel compelled to respond to your post because I also found this site when I got interested in dog nutrition after one of my dogs developed health issues…and to be honest, it hasn’t been an easy road. However, I can tell you that the journey has resulted in major improvements in all of my dogs’ health & wellness. And I’m committed to continuing the journey – but it’s daunting at times, expensive (but the costs are offset by reduced vet bills), and sometimes overwhelming. I made some mistakes along the way, mostly in trying to get the supplements right & balancing the calcium/phosphorus ratio in homemade/raw feeding – but fortunately, my dogs are healthy and thriving on a natural diet. So if my experience can help others to avoid some of the pitfalls along the way, that would be great.

So here’s my 2 cents based on what I read above: I would start with Cookie, since she has cancer & arthritis (and is over weight) I think she’s in greatest need. This may be “off subject”, but the first thing I would do is cease any vaccines completely. Her immune system is compromised by the cancer, so your vet should be able to give you a waiver if you need one in order to keep her “tags” current – if your local jurisdiction wont accept a vet’s waiver, you can pay for titer testing in lieu of vaccination. But to be honest, I don’t think you would/should have to go thru that expense ( I can elaborate if you need help getting around city requirements). Next I would get a consult with Dr. Jean Dodds at Hemolife http://www.hemopet.org/veterinary-diagnostic-laboratory.html
you can do this by phone or email if you are not located in southern California. Call her and explain Cookie’s situation & that you are looking to switch her diet. She can tell you what labwork would be appropriate to determine a course of action (especially testing Cookie’s immune system & inflammatory issues) you can print the lab order from her website & have your vet do the blood draw & have your vet send it to her for the testing. Ask her to call you with the results and her recommendations – she can tell you what supplements to use to assist with Cookie’s immune support & inflammation/ arthritis. I would ask Dr. Dodds about raw feeding for Cookie – if her immune system is an issue, you may want to buy a high quality prepared raw food like Bravo Balance http://www.bravorawdiet.com/product/balance/index.html and *lightly* cook it – just enough to be extra safe. Of course, getting Cookie’s weight down to optimum level will help with the arthritis – if you feed her the Bravo Balance at the amount appropriate to her *ideal* weight, her weight should normalize in a few months without her feeling deprived. Bravo’s website has a feeding calculator you can use to determine the amount to feed – just remember to plug in her ideal weight, not her actual weight. Here’s a link: http://www.bravorawdiet.com/product/feeding/howmuch.html
I only suggest a prepared raw diet because it takes a lot of the guesswork out of feeding a “nutritionally complete” raw diet – and it sounds like Cookie needs help ASAP. As for cost, assuming Cookie’s ideal weight was 60 pounds, you would feed 1.2 lbs of food per day and I think a 5 lb chub of their balanced brand is like $27 – so her food would be about $42 per week. When I make raw/homemade my cost is about $2 to $5 per pound, depending on my protein source (and not including cost of supplements). Expensive – but I’ve saved a TON on vet bills; my dogs never get skin issues or yeast infections anymore.

As for the other dogs and your journey to switch to raw, there are some great resources here on this site and suggestions for other resources – just read everything you can get your hands on and learn about the diet/wellness connection. If you find it challenging at first maybe switch first to a home made diet, then take the leap to raw when you are ready. At least with home cooked you have control over your ingredients & can deal with specific ailments (like Mia’s yeast infections) by eliminating foods that are common culprits for yeast imbalances.
Best of luck to you in your journey!
Corinne

[pugmomsandy]

This might help you a bit:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2114&aid=400

When there is an infection, the bacteria release an enzyme and the pH of urine is changed to where crystals can start coming together into a stone. Crystals normally don’t form a stone in normal urine pH.

I also have dogs with crystals but no infection. I always give some canned food and some urinary health supplements.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[Corey K]

thank you for the feedback. I actually tried the raw diet, and the highest end foods with him prior to the issues and he will not touch them. He seems very picky and also will not eat canned food. I was just reading about the cranberry supplements and may give them a try. He eats IAMs large breed for ages 1-5 now because it’s the only thing he will consistently eat. I am confused about one thing I’m reading. I keep reading that the struvite crystals do not need treated unless there is an active infection. He does have an active infection and is on an antibiotic. My vet tested his urine a week after the begin of antibiotic and it was back to normal. I plan to keep him on the antibiotic for 4 weeks. Why does it say that the crystals are only dangerous if there is infection – is that simply because the infection needs treated? Or do the crystals behave differently or pose a different threat if accompanied by infection? So confusing!!!

[Anita L]

Yes yes yes (on the coupons)! love me some deals!

Pups are much better. Joe still does not like a bath so we went to PSP. I was just as soaked as he was and I was wearing one of their aprons! It was pretty funny! When I went to pay, I told the cashier, 2 dog baths and 1 human. She looked at how soaked I was and laughed with me.

Mostly now, their feet/legs bother them some (itching) but not nearly as bad as it was. We were out of town last week (much needed last minute vacation). Pretty sure they got their supplements and food but past that, who knows. They were loved on very much by my niece who stayed with them, so that’s the good part.

Now it’s time to perfect those foot baths/soaks. If I have a (big) bowl of vinegar solution ready, go outside and use a wash cloth to run it over (or drizzle…or pour), hopefully they won’t fuss too much. I’m gonna hope for the best.

Thanks for asking Bobby-dog. That’s why I love this site. Everyone cares and wants to help! Which is why I wanted to share that sale with my DFA friends 🙂

[Susan]

Hi Ashlee, you have 3 beautiful dogs, sorry I cant help with the raw, but there’s heaps of people on this site that can, I just borrowed this book called “Dr Becker’s REAL FOOD For healthy Dogs & Cats” its a good read & Karen puts you in the right direction with foods, supplements, calcium & fatty acids, for young medium & older dogs..what to do & what not to do..

[crazy4cats]

Hi Texasniteowl-
I have endured some frustrating digestive disorders with my dogs as well due to parasites and many doses of antibiotics and dewormers. I don’t know if they ended up with leaky guts, IBS, IBD, or what, but it was down right frustrating! I read every article I could find on the above conditions. Some of the best information, I found on dogaware.com.
The best results that I have had so far is when I feed them Victor grain free food with a few Northwest Naturals frozen raw nuggets. I also have tried several supplements that are helpful. I use probiotics and/or digestive enzymes that contain slippery elm, l-glutamine and NAG. The Victor contains a clay that helps with loose stools as well. Another kibble that has the clay is Nature’s Variety Prairie and Instinct. Interestingly, sauerkraut and shredded carrots are also helpful for some reason. LOL! I wish you a lot of luck!

[Kelsey K]

Also, any suggestions on supplements to start from the beginning? I know glucosamine/joint supplements are popular, as are Omega supplements. Any recommendations?

[DogFoodie]

Unfortunately, my dog with food intolerance issues reacted to Springtime’s Big Off Garlic or if be using that. I tried it and both of my ate it right up just thrown into their food. I used the granules. It’s know to help deter fleas, flies, mosquitoes, etc. Here’s a link to the product: http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs/All-Natural-Dog-Supplements

I had planned to use BOG with Mercola Natural Flea and Tick Defense: http://products.mercola.com/healthypets/natural-flea-and-tick-control/

Unfortunately, since BOG didn’t work for us, I resorted to more toxic methods and ended up with Sentinel, which does nothing to deter mosquitoes. I also have the Halo Herbal Dip that Sandy recommended to me last summer. Her little cutie s wear a few drops on a bandana.

[InkedMarie]

Terri,
I’ve never heard not to feed fowl. I feed duck, turkey & chicken. If you’re looking to feed pre made raw, Primal has a bunch of proteins. I feed ground raw: lamb, goat, beef, turkey, duck, beef and that’s just what’s in my freezer. There are many others: bison, emu, rabbit, etc.
I disagree with Judy about the probiotics. Human grade is much better, human supplements are regulated, pets are not. Judy, I want to point out & I may be wrong but I believe if you are a veterinary professional & posting here, you are supposed to post under your real name.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi Katie,

You may also want to check out reelrawdog.com. I recently discovered this company through InkedMarie (I think, correct me if I’m wrong). They have good deals on free shipping based on where you’re located and how much you buy. I would have to buy 50lbs for free shipping because I live in FL. They also have good prices on bulk ground products. They are already in the correct ratio of 80:10:10. Then you just add some veggies and supplements and you’re all set. That could get you started while you figure out the rest.

[Regina D]

Are these limited ingredient foods, like NB & Wellness, complete foods? Or do I need to add supplements if fed long-term?

[Katie J]

I’ll definitely pick up that book you’re suggesting this weekend. We’re planning a puppy outing at our local town center that has several pet friendly stores.

My little guys are pretty active. When they aren’t napping, it’s full on puppy mode for both of them! Plus we make trips about 5 times a week to where I board my horses, and spend several hours playing and exploring. I figure once the pup is full grown, we’ll be going through about a pound a day between the two of them. But I have no idea how big the pup will get. I could be underestimating. The co-op I plan to purchase from estimates about $1.50 a day to feed a 40 lb dog, and I think we will be under that weight between the two of them. I can get behind that! I am a little overwhelmed with their offerings as a lot of it is large portions. I’m not sure how to feed it all. I guess those books would answer that for me!

Next I want to look into supplements for their raw diet. I gather that they can have human multivitamins. The only draw back is that I have to make sure it’s safe for dogs and the mix may not be optimal, right? I know that Hound Dog Mom buys things separately. But I’ll admit her list of supplements confuses me quickly!

[Katie J]

So I have went through this entire thread (skimmed a tiny bit) and couldn’t find my answer surprisingly enough. I have been toying with the idea of going raw for my new pup that I mentioned in the Editor’s Choice forum, but worry that I could screw him up if I get the balance off. The puppy stage is too important to screw up. I keep researching raw anyhow because I want to switch to raw eventually for him and my terrier mix. I even recently found a co-op that delivers close by.

My bug question, as I see most people are feeding medium – large dogs, is how I maintain balance for small dogs? My terrier is 15-20 lbs (just guessing but I can weigh him), and my pup is 8-9 lbs (he weighed 7 lbs about two weeks ago at the vet). For those who haven’t read the other thread, he’s almost a 4 months old Shiba Inu/Akita Inu that I purchased secondhand but was a pet store pup. Yes, he is very small for his age, and no, I have no idea how big he’ll be. He seems to be growing like a weed though! Anyhow to maintain the proper balance for the pup, would I have to rely mostly on grinds? I assume I can find a proper balance for my terrier without solely using grinds. I haven’t even looked into the cost of a grinder yet. If I were to use a premix like See Spot Live Longer, do I give these little guys 1 lb of boneless meat? Seems like an awful lot! And on the topic of supplements, I know a lot of puppy foods have added DHA. Would I want to add that in a puppy raw diet? I was also toying with the idea of placing an order with the co-op for a few things to try to add in to the current diet of kibble and wet my pup is getting to help him transition. Is it safe to use raw as a topper on kibble? Or should I feed raw as an exclusive meal?

Thank you for all of this information! I discovered this website about a week ago and have since made it my personal mission to find out how to give my dogs the best!

[deca d]

What kind of products would help with my shih-tzu’s dry eye condition? She’s on medicated eye drops right now. I’m looking for alternative store medications, and maybe food supplements.

[DogFoodie]

If I were doing an elimination diet, I wouldn’t add any supplements either.

[InkedMarie]

Hi Vianca,
I’m sorry for the loss of Fluffy. I agree that most vets don’t know much about nutrition. For your dog who needs to lose weight, I had great success with Wellness Core reduced fat. I haven’t tried Annamaet Lean but others have with good luck.
For the dog with allergies, we need more information. What are the symptoms the dog has? Please post the ingredients to the dog good he eats. What other food products does he eat: treats, supplements, anything.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Janet-
What a bummer! I know what you are going through. Have you been using any supplements at all? Such as digestive enzymes or probiotics? Take a look at the website dogaware.com. It has a great section on digestive health and disorders. They have terrific advise in my opinion. They talk about diarrhea, IBS, IBD, leaky gut and all that fun stuff. Lol! I’ve used some of the recommended supplements with success. Some of them are holistic, so you may want to ask your vet (or not) about them first. Good luck!

[Harpers Mom]

I’ve got horses who need multiple supplements, and although buying in bulk is cheaper, smartpak a are more convient way for them to get them as I am not the only one to feed them.

I personally wouldn’t recommend their dog food.

[Holly C]

My dog, Rumsfeld, a mixed breed 10 year old, had joint troubles and was just diagnosed with hip dysplaysia. I just put him on a new joint supplement a month ago- Missing Link Hip and Joint. It’s a miraculous difference! It comes in a powder form, and my dog will eat it when sprinkled on his ToTW. He moves much better, and it’s getting better every day. I’ve also had my horse on Missing Link Equine. It truly is a great product for a great value. Heres the site- https://www.smartpakequine.com/dog-supplements-232pc

If you are an equestrian, you probably know about SmartPak. They sell horse supplements in custom made doses, shipped automatically to you for cheap. They just started selling canine supplements this year, and it’s the best program ever! You also get a organizing system for free. I pay 12.25/mo for his supplements. I’m thinking about buying their pet food, as well. Like the supplements, it also comes in pre-packaged baggies with your dog food. Seems like a good idea.

Pst- I promise I don’t advertise or anything, but I do tend to get really excited when I find something that works!

[Linsey H]

Hi there, I started reading these forums back when I was first researching a puppy, and so far it has served me well, though I finally have a question. I know that there is a separate thread for large breed puppies, but I felt like my question might have been a bit too long and complicated for it.

I have a 21w, 45lb female Shiloh Shepherd and she has recently started teething. I have been restricting her calcium pretty thoroughly, though I have heard from several reliable people that I should be giving her more during her teething phase. My internet searches so far have been unhelpful and I have not found much scientific data on large breeds and teething. I am also a little concerned with her current diet ratios, so if I am doing something terrible, I am hoping that someone can call me out on it. So far my puppy has been putting on steady 2 pounds a week, with the exception of a few ~3lb/week growth spurts. She does appear to get occasional growing pains still though.

Her current diet:
She receives two meals a day which consist of kibble and toppers, and since she is a puppy she still receives a significant amount of training treats. I have been using http://www.animalmedicalcenterofchicago.com/pdf/CalorieRequirementsForDogs.pdf as a rough guideline for calories- my puppy gets roughly 1.1-1.3k C from kibble and then 200-500C from toppers, chews and training treats. I have read that large breeds have slightly different requirements after 4mo, plus my puppy is decently active- she walks a lot, plays plenty of fetch, and then gets at least 1 hour of dog play through various outlets daily. I generally adjust how much she gets of what based on what she did that day, and she has been staying very lean and well muscled.

For kibble, her breeder had her on Earthborn Holistic: Meadow Feast, and since that was on Hound Dog Mom’s list and had the right amount of calcium I have kept her on it. The breeder also suggested using Flexicose and Missing Link Puppy as supplements- I am not sure if Missing Link is the best, but the breeder said that the calcium amounts checked out (only the min is on the package).

For toppers, she almost always gets a tablespoon of pumpkin and then either raw green tripe, a raw ground mix from our butcher, or canned PetKind. The raw mix consists of 10% green tripe, 10% organs, and 80% beef – it is bone free and has been the main thing reducing calcium in her diet. As of last month, I have started giving my puppy either a raw (irradiated) egg or a chicken wing every 2-3 days (whenever she finishes .75-1lb pound of the supplement). I had read somewhere that a chicken wing contains ~1.86g of calcium and 89g total with ~38% being bone, though my math is still somewhat guestimate-y. I also have backs and necks, but I was under the impression that they had more calcium.

For treats, she either gets soft Buddy Biscuits (grain free), dried/dehydrated meat, lamb lung, Orijen treats, or cooked chicken- she definitely prefers softer treats and no is no longer interested in kibble rewards (she spits it out in training). When I had her on only meat-based rewards, she started to get a little snobbish so I reintroduced the Buddy Biscuits, but I am not sure that they are the healthiest option. I try to limit the amount on normal days to 100C, and then for days she has class (or if I work with her on a lot of new behaviors) she gets 200-300C.

For chews, she either gets Beams (fish skin), bison trachea (dehydrated, I have not been able to find raw/frozen), or tendon- though she is not as interested in the last two since she has been teething. Pumpkin filled kongs have been another option, though she is not a big kong fan. Lamb lung, jerky, or sweet potato, are rare accompaniments to the pumpkin. She is a gentle chewer and only finishes the beams in a single session. She is no longer interested in fruit/veggie chews. For teething, I have tried frozen towels/ropes soaked in a broth solution, but she has yet to go for them. Her favorite “chew” is definitely the raw bones, but I don’t want to give her too many due to calcium levels.

Anyways, my core question is this:
Does her current diet seem too far out of balance?

With the follow-ups being these:
1) Am I giving her too many calories in unbalanced toppers and treats?
2) Is my puppy getting too much or not enough calcium?
3) Are there other raw chewing options with less calcium (unless she needs more)?
4) Are there any specific books I should read in addition to Dr. Becker and Steve Brown’s books?
5) What are some of the better online resources for buying raw? My local butcher shop is pretty great, but unfortunately they don’t carry everything.

[Michele N]

I’ve done my research with my dog for the past 5 years, as he’s had issues since I’ve had him. I KNOW how to read a label, and believe me, I’ve spent more time doing that than anyone I know. I am not an idiot that doesn’t know how to read ingredients, and I am offended at Dinovite, who sent me an ingredient list, of a dog food, that is NOT even what I feed my dog. Maybe THEY should do their research before sending out an email of an ingredient list of a completely different dog food then what I feed my dog. It’s pretty ignorant if you ask me. I have the privilege of knowing pet nutritionist, holistic vets, and have come to my own conclusions, that feeding raw is the very best option, especially if you use your own human food, because then you know exactly what your dog is eating. Unfortunately I cannot afford to feed him this on a daily basis, nor do I always have the time to prepare it for my 3. I am lucky to have 2 excellent pet food stores, not big commercial chain stores, that actually do their research and buy high quality dog and cat food. I switched to grain free years ago, but until I found a brand that used a very limited amount of ingredients did my poor allergy sufferer get any true relief and his skin infection cleared up,and all of his fur grew back. I also think taking him to an allergist and having him tested for every ingredient in dog food, is not only ridiculously expensive, but it’s a huge waste of money. The fact being that the dog food companies use fillers with their mix of vitamins, some of which come from China and India. This is NOT listed on the ingredients on any package including this Dinovite stuff. So that being said, none of us REALLY know every single ingredient in dog food, or premixed vitamins, like Dinovite. Who knows where they get the fillers used to bind the vitamin mix. Who knows for sure what is truly in it? Fact is, my dog is allergic to the outside environment and there isn’t anything I can do to prevent that, which is partly why I wanted to try this Dinovite to help him with this time of year, as they claim the vitamin mix helps dogs with yeast and allergy issues. But instead of helping him, it made him break out with red bumps all over his body, and now we have to deal with a skin infection. There is obviously something in this product that he is very allergic to. So my question is, why is this company putting ingredients in their product, that could cause these severe allergic reactions in dogs that already have immune suppressed systems? Why are they telling people to put their dogs on a yeast free, and grain free diet, yet put those ingredients in their supplement? It seems highly irresponsible of this company to CLAIM to help these dogs, only to make them worse. I can use my own supplements in my dogs food, which is what I was doing, without issues, so I guess, yes , I should’ve known better. Any product out there that CLAIMS to be a cure all, is really a SCAM! I have learned to trust my better judgement, and know that most of these pet products are full of crap. Literally! Also explain to me why when I emailed Dinovite, telling them since putting my dog on it, he is itchier, that,they told me that I need to keep him on it longer because I haven’t given it enough time to do it’s work? Maybe they need to hire some reputable people that give out good advice instead of just caring about their pocket book. Maybe they need to put a disclaimer on their product, stating that this supplement may actually make your dog sicker than he was before starting him on it, and may require you taking him to the vet and paying out enormous vet bills to fix the problem that our product may cause your pet. This product may have helped other dogs that don’t have poor immune systems that can handle the crap they put in this product.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Dawn –

If you’re feeding a balanced raw diet, it’s not necessary to add any supplements. However, there are many supplements that may be beneficial. Probiotics are a great way to support gut health – you can purchase probiotic supplements or mix in some kefir or plain yogurt with his meals. Omega 3’s are a wonderful way to support a a healthy skin and coat, provide ant-inflammatory benefits and support the immune system – you can purchase a high quality fish oil or feed tinned sardines and/or cage-free eggs a couple times per week. There are various nutraceuticals that have various health promoting properties you may want to consider – I personally like to make a “blend” of items such as bee pollen, spirulina, kelp, chlorella, turmeric, etc. Swanson Vitamins is a great site to shop for supplements, I do the majority of my supplement shopping for both my dogs and myself there. They’ve got a lot of great stuff and the best prices I’ve found.

[Michele N]

I have a 5 year old German Shepherd who has had allergies since he was just a pup. We have tried just about everything out on the market to relieve his itching. He has itched his fur off at times, and it is black underneath. He has a yeasty smell to him. He had to be on steroid shots when he was younger due to his terrible outbreaks and skin infections. He gets worse in the summer, but his problem went year round. Until I got sick of having him on high doses of Benadryll and taking him to the vet for the allergy medicine, which really didn’t help the problem, just gave him a little relief. After a year of me spending hours of researching nutrition , and yeast problems in dogs, I stumbled upon a dog food, that pretty much saved my dogs life. It is Dr. E’s Limited Ingredient Grain and Potato Free Food. It only contains 5 ingredients. For the first time in his life, my dogs fur grew back and he stopped itching and he didn’t smell anymore. I also have him on supplements, probiotics, digestive enzymes by Mercola, Jointsaver, & Lysine. This spring came all the pollens and grass which he is also allergic to, and he started itching again. Although this time he didn’t scratch off his fur. He just had some hot spots, and so I had a friend suggest trying Dinovite, because he said it was helping his dog. I can say that since I put him on this supplement, about a week and a half, he has been itching himself until he bleeds. I emailed the company and they said that was not enough time for the product to work. So I continued a couple more days, and now I am ready to toss this stuff in the garbage. I am so steaming furious, that this company would put out a product that contains yeast as an ingredient, and a ground grain sorghum, and then tell you to put your dog on a yeast and grain free diet, makes no sense to me. I don’t know where they source their ingredients, maybe China, I don’t know, but what I do know is that my dog hasn’t been this bad off in years. He has red bumps all over his legs, back, stomach, groin, even his tail. He is so miserable, that now I may have to have him go back on the terrible medicine I wanted him off of. He has bad hips and elbows and arthritis, so the last thing he needs to be on are steroids. But now it seems as if he has a horrible skin infection after being on this product. We haven’t changed anything else in his diet , so I know for sure, that this reaction is caused from the Dinovite. I absolutely DO NOT recommend giving ANY dog this product that has allergies, immune disorders, pancreatic disorders, or skin problems. He was doing oK, with his allergies, he was itchy, but he didn’t have these red bumps all over his body, and he wasn’t scratching himself bloody. Now I am going to have a huge vet bill, on top of a very miserable dog. I am One very UNHAPPY customer. I should have known better. The less ingredients he has in his diet , the better. There is no miracle cure for allergies, and any product that claims to be, is lying. The only thing you can really do, is limit your dogs ingredients, find a food that has limited ingredients or feed a raw diet so that you know exactly what your dog is eating. Use human grade supplements recommended by a holistic vet, and research dog nutritionists and find one and talk to one if you can. And if you dog is allergic to pollen and grass like mine is, give them baths frequently after they’ve been outside. I use Zymox enzymatic shampoo and rinse. I also have used Dermagic and all of their products are fantastic, especially the hot spot salve. It doesn’t just sooth the itchy skin, it takes the hot spots away. I am mad that I got sucked in to this SCAM at my dogs expense!

[crazy4cats]

I just recently bought some (coconut oil) so I don’t have any real experience with it other than I think it tastes yummy! Lol! I mostly used supplements with slippery elm, l-Glutamine, DGL, and similar. The coconut oil is supposed to be very good for them. Give it a try! Also wanted to tell you that when I feed my dogs Victor with Northwest Naturals mixed in, their “output” is awesome! I only feed a few times a week because it is expensive and I have a lot of canned I need to go through. There are other frozen raw nuggets, such as Nature’s Variety that you could check out also.

[Dawn R]

Is there anything I should be giving an 8 week old bulldog as a puppy supplement? I’m planning on feeding raw as soon as I get her.

Thanks for any feedback….

Dawn