[Patmae B]

Also make sure you are eliminating wheat gluten from the diet. Stop feeding kibble and make food if you can. Or feed a high quality canned read ingredients no by products or gluten. Start out with canned toss in some cooked meat and cooked vegetables slowly. Incorporate raw goats milk once daily your dog will love it ! The gut will improve over a couple weeks. In a month you should see a huge improvement.

[Patmae B]

Try feeding Answers or Primal raw goats milk. It is a natural probiotic and chocked full of vitamins it can help cure IBD, allergies and help with many health issues in dogs. I swear by it my dogs love it and it even took a sick dog I had that was literally in renal failure to complete recovery and normal kidney values. Please read up on it and its not expensive.

[Patmae B]

I had a dog do this it was acid reflux. The burning in the throat causes the dog to eat or lick anything thinking it will give them relief. For a small dog you can give a 10 mg Pepcid or generic famotidine once daily. A med to big dog would get a 20 mg. Stop feeding kibble and make home cooked food or buy a really good canned to feed. Get Answers raw goat milk feed 1/4 c daily fir probiotics

[Susan]

Hi Sydney,
you need to see a Vet Specialist, that specializes in IBD, you would have just been going around in circles seeing different vets, thats what happened with Patch & me until the 4th vet specialized in Intestinal problems, IBD, IBS & Skin Allergies etc, then finally I was told to do a cooked elimination diet & to find a nutritionist to help with this & was given 2 names of 2 good Nutritionist but they were both in different states, so we did everything via phone & email, to work out what foods Patch was sensitive too & did a raw elimination diet to work out what was causing his paws to go red & what foods causing him to have IBD flare & react, you wouldnt believe it, his environment allergies play a very big part aswell not just the food, this is why we go around & around in circles, at the end of last year & beginning of this year he had a really bad IBD flare (Stomach), his immune system was working over time vet said cause of his environment allergies, the immune system — attacks the body’s own healthy tissue, this is called an immune response, resulting in autoimmune disease, IBD… he had no diarrhea or sloppy poos this time, it attacked his stomach & Esophagus, I had already worked out what he could & couldnt eat thru elimination diet we did 2, elimination diets, first cooked diet then the following year a raw elimination diet…as he reacted to vet diets like I posted we think from the binders in the vet diets..
If you have found something that agrees with your girl still try & find another brand of dry kibble just is case she starts to react to an ingredient as Patch has done in the past….at the moment I only have 2 dry foods Patch does OK on & 1-2 wet can foods vet diets that are pork he does really well on pork dry & wet dog foods but not cooked pork??..
it all does your head it & I think it was you who posted all you seem to do is research dog foods..

[Susan]

Hi Sydney,
have you ever done a food elimination diet with either raw or cooked ingredients?? 1 meat & 1 carb??
this is the only true way to know 100% what foods your dog is sensitive too..

In the beginning one of Patches vets put him on Royal Canine Hyproallergenic vet diet but Patch was still getting his red paws 20mins after he ate also the fat was way too high at 19% also his afternoon poos was very sloppy, So we tried the Hills Z/d Ultra & the same red paws after he ate the Z/d dry kibble, I think it was the Corn Starch in the Hills Z/d formula.. as the meat proteins are broken down so the body doesnt recognize the meat protein in these Hypoallergenic vet diets, so it has to be the binders they are using to bind the hypoallergenic vet diets the dog s react too….
.. In the end I did a raw elimination diet & finally worked out what ingredients he reacts too..

I read one of your post in someone elses post & you wrote your dog is better now on a vegan dog food, when the cooler weather starts to come around when environment allergens arent as high I would now add 1 meat that isn’t too expensive & you can buy like pork & see does your dog start to react?? do an meat elimination diet & I bet you you will find a meat that agree with your dog..

Here’s Farmina dog foods there’s a few formula’s to look thru..
https://www.farmina.com/us/eshop-d-Dog-food.html

[Sydney N]

You should try new balance vegetarian wet food (also vegan) my dog was allergic to all meat proteins and this solved all her ear problems! I also am vegetarian (mostly) so the idea of raw also kinda scared me away along with finally realizing she was allergic to meat!

[Michelle A]

We tried this dog food for our 7 year old lab mix. Initially we bought a small bag and he loved it. Went and bought a largeR bag and after a few days began noticing some changes in his behavior and skin condition. Like the lady above, he was panting, whining (anxiety), and terrible, terrible dry itchy skin…so bad he was digging and scratching and biting himself raw. Took him for a flea dip and oatmeal bath, because living in the woods, thought maybe fleas or ticks…she saw nothing on him…husband and I tried to figure out what had changed and deduced the dog food change…took him off immediately! For the last few days, you could see a huge difference in him and that he was more energetic, almost like a puppy, happier, healthier…other than the scabs from his ordeal, he seems to be doing quite well…put him back on his regular dog food 4 Health, sensitive skin formula. Definitely something in this Mossy Oak brand food to cause such reactions to our furbabies! Thanks for hosting this blog site! Buyer beware!

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Michelle A.

[Michelle A]

We tried this dog food for our 7 year old lab mix. Initially we bought a small bag and he loved it. Went and bought a largeR bag and after a few days began noticing some changes in his behavior and skin condition. Like the lady above, he was panting, whining (anxiety), and terrible, terrible dry itchy skin…so bad he was digging and scratching and biting himself raw. Took him for a flea dip and oatmeal bath, because living in the woods, thought maybe fleas or ticks…she saw nothing on him…husband and I tried to figure out what had changed and deduced the dog food change…took him off immediately! For the last few days, you could see a huge difference in him and that he was more energetic, almost like a puppy, happier, healthier…other than the scabs from his ordeal, he seems to be doing quite well…put him back on his regular dog food 4 Health, sensitive skin formula https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/4health-grain-free-large-breed-formula-adult-dog-food-30-lb-bag-1102915?cm_mmc=feed-_-GoogleShopping-_-Product-_-1102915&gclid=CjwKCAjw-8nbBRBnEiwAqWt1zYpiRPyeGWqVuH1bL3J0tOkFzQkmiDvj9-zGASr7B-mlr42ZevhmBRoCnnUQAvD_BwE Definitely something in this food to cause such reactions to our furbabies! Thanks for hosting this blog site! Buyer beware!

[anonymous]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2018/08/grain-free-diets-and-heart-disease-in-dogs/ excerpt below, click on link for full article and comments:

Dr. Jennifer Larsen, a nutritionist at UC Davis, has written an excellent summary of the nuances of this issue, and she has agreed to let me share some of it here:
Taurine is not required to be present in dog foods. Taurine is an amino acid that is not nutritionally essential for dogs; however, there are dietary factors (such as protein source, fiber type and concentration, and cooking or processing methods) and individual dog characteristics (such as breed and calorie needs) that impact how efficiently taurine may be made and used by the body. The sulfur amino acid content and bioavailability in food is important though. The problem with dietary deficiency-related cardiac disease is multifactorial and is not just seen in goldens.
1- in many grain free diets, legumes are used to provide the carb (starch) but also protein and fiber – you cannot tell which ingredients are providing various proportions of nutrients from an ingredient list
2- legume protein is low in sulfur amino acids (methionine and cystine- the precursors for taurine synthesis)
3- some fiber types/concentrations increase fecal taurine content and promotes bacterial degradation of taurine (dogs and cats must use taurine to conjugate bile acids) so taurine recycling is not as efficient and more is lost
4- dogs need an adequate supply of precursors and to be able to make taurine fast enough to replace obligatory as well as excessive losses. When Newfoundlands and beagles were compared (during the Investigation into the lamb and rice issue with DCM in the 90s), it was found that Newfoundlands made taurine more slowly, so there are differences among breeds and probably individuals
5- dogs with lower than predicted calorie needs (“easy keepers”) also might not eat enough food and therefore enough protein to supply adequate precursors
6- some grain free diets (and other types of diets), are not high in protein (and therefore sulfur amino acids) since they use more expensive exotic or uncommon sources.
Any of these or a combination may impact taurine status in the dog.
There have been recent cases seen in our hospital and elsewhere of dilated cardiomyopathy secondary to taurine deficiency in dogs that have been associated with commercial diets containing certain ingredients (such as legumes – beans, lentils, and peas – and root vegetables – white and sweet potatoes). Data collection and interpretation is ongoing for these recent cases.
In the past we have also seen cases of dilated cardiomyopathy and taurine deficiency in dogs eating home-prepared diets (with either cooked and raw ingredients and those with and without meat), and other commercial diets with various ingredients and nutritional profiles. Some of those cases and investigations have been published (others can be found on PubMed):

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by anonymous.

[Acroyali]

I emailed Zignature awhile back asking about some basic protocol (nothing to do with the recent “grain free” scare), assuring I’d be answered within 5 business days. We like to keep a “dog food” brand in back up in case our raw supplies run short.
More than 3 times the 5 business days have passed and I’ve yet to get a response, which is disheartening.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Acroyali.

[CatahoulaLove]

“The vet is putting you on the wrong track IMO.

You are using one of the best kibbles available (despite my strong preference for PMR raw, as a disclaimer).

Other formulas are going to increase calories from carbohydrates which is a huge negative and will directly de-condition your dog as a result of the dietary change.

The “only working dogs require protein” argument is a fallacy.”

That PMR raw site is amazing. I’m pretty sure my family would vomit during every feeding. Seriously though, going from 17% carbs to more than double, if not more, is not the direction I want to go with Harper. I wouldn’t mind eliminating the peas altogether, but they are a little further down the ingredient list for Victor, and I’ll likely have to compromise protein or fat content. My vet did recommend Natural Balance L.I.D, while not truly horrible, is a step back. Glad she didn’t recommend Hill’s…because I like the practice and would hate to leave it. Thanks Bill, I appreciate your insight.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by CatahoulaLove.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by CatahoulaLove. Reason: Using that English degree

[Reese B]

@Patricia , no, the freeze dried fat content is not the same as their raw. It should be 17% fat in the freeze dried if it was the same as they raw. If you re-read my email exchange with Primal, they admit that the fat content is different in both.

@aimee you’re right, I just get so angry when pet food companies blatantly lie. Since this whole grain free scare, I’m totally at a loss at what to feed my dog (who has allergies to grain) Trying to find a substitute food without grains or legumes has been a nightmare. Then, when you think you found one, they can’t give straight answers about their products…soooo frustrating!

[Spy Car]

The vet is putting you on the wrong track IMO.

You are using one of the best kibbles available (despite my strong preference for PMR raw, as a disclaimer).

Other formulas are going to increase calories from carbohydrates which is a huge negative and will directly de-condition your dog as a result of the dietary change.

The “only working dogs require protein” argument is a fallacy.

Bill

[CatahoulaLove]

I’m terrible at titles, but this website and forum have been such an amazing resource for me over the past few years, so here we go:

I have a 16 months old Catahoula-mix female, Harper, neutered, and active/less active lifestyle. Currently I feed her Victor Ultra 42 dog food, which is high kcal and protein content. Our vet recommended that we lower our protein content because she is not a working dog. So, I’d like to find a food that avoids lower quality grains, limit or eliminates legumes, limits carbs, and limits overall ingredients. After some obsessive research, I am trying to choose between Earthborn Holistics Venture Turkey and Butternut Squash 340 kcal/cup and Canine Caviar’s Open Meadow 541 kcal/cup. I would prefer Canine Caviar based on my readings and ingredients, but I’m concerned that my dog will be starving at getting only 2 cups per day on average with her activity level. With Venture she would eat near 4 cups, split into two servings. Daily requirement to maintain weight determined at 1100 calories from maths at Petnet based on weight, size and activity level.

So, Community, am I missing something important, or am I on the right track? I’d like the food to last as long as possible, but not at the expense of Harper’s health or mental state. Can the higher kcal become more filling without adding too many carbs etc, or is a lower kcal the way to go? I’m not looking to plump up the dog, but rather give the highest ingredients I can afford with the most all around efficiency.

Is there another option aside from RAW, BARF, freeze dried that I am missing with pea/legume free, (mostly) grain free, moderate protein, low carb, no filler, high quality dog food? I live in an area with access to nearly any brand, with online ordering options as well.
Thank you all for reading, and I look forward to reading your thoughts!

[Donna B]

Hi there. My Frenchie just turned 2 in July. I too got him when he was 5 months. I transitioned him to Acana Duck & Pear because I had my golden retriever on it as well at the time. He loves it. I’ve recently switched my golden over to raw. My Frenchie gets about a dime size of raw with his dry and he barks at me to hurry up while I’m preparing their bowls. IDK where you live, but perhaps if you have a locally owned specialty pet store in your area, they too could help. I absolutely love my vet, but “food” is not their specialty. All of my food research has come from this site as well as my local store owners. Frenchies can be prone to chicken allergies oddly enough. Perhaps give Hamburg and rice for a few days to give her digestive track a rest. That should help her stools get better. In the mean time decide on which food to go with and then you can begin to transition with the Hamburg and rice mix if/when her stools improve. Just some thoughts… Good luck!

[anonymous]

Some of the Wellness formulas are loaded with potato…I would discontinue. Consider Fromm Classic Adult, add a little water and a topper, a bit of crumbled boiled egg, boiled chopped chicken meat or something.

https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-family-classic-adult-dog-food

PS: do a gradual transition, 1/2 and 1/2, new food and old for at least a couple of weeks.
I would eliminate the milk bones and all snacks at least for the time being. Always have fresh water available 24/7.

I bet the pig ears were the culprit, no good. Stay away from processed snacks. Try a frozen raw carrot (when the dog is stable) not baby carrots, they are bleached/chemically treated and a choking hazard due to their size.

[Patricia A]

Sadly I don’t think I’ve come across a food that DIDN’T list their guaranteed analysis such as protein/fat as Minimum. I’m sure their protein listing is always showing the highest possible amount and the fat showing the lowest but most likely much higher.
Reese if you enlarge where primal shows the guaranteed analysis it shows the guaranteed analysis in the freeze-dried as 28% fat but under that shows the rehydrated as 5%. The same as their raw. https://www.chewy.com/primal-rabbit-formula-nuggets-grain/dp/141872

[Reese B]

Hi Patricia,
The rep doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
The raw and freeze dried are not the exact same thing. The freeze dried has a higher fat content. If they were exactly the same, the fat for the freeze dried rabbit would be 17%, not 28%.

I still haven’t heard back from them. I’m done with primal. I will not buy a product from a company who can’t/won’t answer basic questions about the nutrition of their food.

[Susan]

Hi Joanne,
Im not against grain pet foods, I believe you should rotate with 1 good grain free dry kibble then rotate with a grain kibble or I like the dry kibbles that will have a few good grains instead of Legumes & have sweet potatoes, veggies & fruits a variety….

Whenever Patch eats a grain kibble that has Barley, Oats & Brown Rice he does big smelly sloppy yellow poos, but when he eats a grain kibble that has White Rice & Sorghum he does nice firm poo’s so he must be sensitive to Barley, Oats & the Brown rice is probably too high in fiber put them all together & we have bad poo’s, so it may not be 1 ingredient it might be when they are all together?…. alot of these grain formula’s have replaced their corn with peas & barley. I prefered corn instead of the peas & barley, corn firms up poos, most intestinal health vet diets use corn in their vet diets for this reason..

Chicken: I don’t think your dog is sensitive to chicken, it could have another ingredient or it may have been the Fish or the Duck but read what were the common ingredients besides meat proteins?
My Patch does excellent on Chicken with his IBD, BUT when he eats cooked or raw chicken his paws go red within 20mins of eating the cooked or raw chicken when I did a elimination diet BUT when he eats a kibble that has chicken in it he doesnt get his red paws sometimes or not as bad?? so I’d say its cause the chicken in a kibble gets broken down while being cooked at such high temperatures & Patch isnt reactionthe the chicken as bad aswhen he eats fresh raw or cooked chicken?..
I asked a Hills Vet Nutritionist, why does Hill’s wet & dry formula’s all have chicken in them?, she said, it’s cause chicken is the easiest meat to digest, this is probably why Patch does well with his IBD…

Have a look at “Farmina” grain formula’s.. they look very good for a dry kibble..
https://www.farmina.com/us/eshop-dog/dog-food/11-n&d-ancestral-grain-canine.html

Be careful the Purina Pro Plan Salmon & Rice formula was tested again & did really bad again, it keeps coming back high in Heavy Metals, By-Product Contamines – Poor & Ingredient Quality – Poor…
If your dog does well Purina, the last test were just done, the testing gets done every 3 months…But certain Brands formula’s are staying on the bad heavy metals & contaminates list & are not moving when they are re tested, so these pet food companies are still using the same bad suppliers.
These Purina Formula’s did really well got 5 stars
Purina Pro Plan Bright Mind Adult Turkey & Rice Formula Dry Dog Food
Purina One Smart Blend, Lamb & Rice, Healthy Weight, True Instinct Turkey and Venison, Chicken and Rice & Small Bites Beef & Rice Formula’s are cleaner kibbles also Purina Beyond Superfood Blend Salmon, Egg and Pumpkin Recipe Dry Dog Food, Purina Beyond Simply 9 White Meat Chicken and Whole Barley Recipe Dry Dog Food…

[Susan]

@ Joanne,

click on the link Crazy4cats has posted above, read thru & scroll down to-

“Dogs And Taurine”
Studies are showing that there are likely dietary factors associated with the taurine deficiency in dogs such as dogs that eat rice, lamb, high-fiber, and/or very low meat protein diets. This can point back to the preparation and/or processing methods used, or that many dog foods include meat byproducts, rice, legumes, and soy which are not sources of good meat proteins or any meat protein at all, which means they are not good sources of taurine.

“Why is Taurine Missing”?
In addition, meat byproducts, rice, and plant-based proteins are not good sources of taurine. If your pet food has high quantities of these types of items, it likely means your dog is not getting the taurine it needs to be healthy.
With so many foods going grain free, manufacturers are substituting the grain with things like lentils, soy protein, and chickpeas. These types of foods do not provide taurine to sustain good health.

“Taurine Naturally in Foods”
Muscle meats contain higher levels taurine; the more work the muscles do, the higher the taurine level. Dark meat of chicken and turkey are naturally high in taurine.
Shellfish, white fish, and cold water fish such as salmon or sardines are also very high in natural taurine.
Taurine is not found in fruits, vegetables, rice, corn, oatmeal, rye, wheat, or barley

* You have to remember a dog has a short digestive tract made to digest meat, not heap of grains & legumes…

Patches IBD Vet Specialist told me this.
A dog has a short digestive tract, made to digest meat & when a dog eats any off meat it’s quickly passed thru the stomach into small bowel then large bowel so no bacteria can start to breed……. On 1 of our visits to see Patches IBD vet, Patch had vomited a few times in 1 week, I was worried but Patches IBD vet told me,
When a dog vomits it’s not a bad thing Susan, it’s very common with wild dogs they regurgitate their food, it’s very easy for a dog to have a vomit, due to the short digestive tract, especially if he is feeling unwell in the stomach also when the dog eats something thats bad & doesnt agree with the dog then the dog can bring it back up himself…

Meat Protein is easier for a dog to digest then any grains….DFA post this in the Food Review section…
Raw meat is easier for a dog or cat to digest, then cooked meat, when you cook meat you kill the digestive enzymes, cooking kills lots of good things..

[Patricia A]

Reese thank’s for posting this again under canine nutrition. No luck with Primal. The rep just didn’t seem to understand what i was asking or didn’t have enough knowledge to answer my questions. Just kept saying that once rehydrated the freeze dried would be the same nutritionally as the raw. Explained my concerns of needing a lower fat recipe and response was give less nuggets. I did some research since I switch between Stella Chewy’s and Primal Freeze Dried. My results were the Primal rabbit is 53% Protein/28% Fat but REHYDRATED is Protein 17%/5% fat. Exactly the same as the raw of same protein when rehydrated. Venison very close to same fat as rabbit and exactly the same as frozen raw rehydrated also. Stella’s which I also rotate with has 5% higher fat with their rabbit and venison.
So do I need to still need to figure out the fat or is label telling me all I need to know regarding the fat???? As usual this is too complicated and I’m confused. Maybe rep gave me the correct info?

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Patricia A.

[Jen T]

Hi, our Westie has been battling TCC (bladder cancer) for almost a year now. Our holistic vet switched her diet to dehydrated raw (Stella & Chewy’s and Primal) which she was doing well on. Recently, she is not interested in any dehydrated food/treats but will eat homemade foods (http://westierescueoc.com/the_westie_diet). We’re not looking to feed her this for long but since she’s been diagnosed with TCC, she’s had issues with crystals and bladder stones as well. Up until last year, she has been the healthiest dog with no issues other than skin allergies.

Does anyone have suggestions on a wet/canned food that is low on carbs for a dog with cancer and who is prone to bladder stones? She doesn’t digest chicken or lamb very well, and has rather soft bowel movements when the protein is too high (from what we’ve seen). It’s been hard trying to get the right food for her due to her soft bowel movements, cancer, and bladder stones. Thank you so much!

[Spy Car]

I’ve had a veterinary healthcare professional (in real life) that has examined my dog. That vet gives my dog glowing reports on his condition and has ruled out periodontal disease.

One of main reasons for the lack of activity here, in my opinion, is the disrespect shown towards those who have reasoned raw feeding makes sense. Especially when things like the superior condition of dogs teeth when they are fed PMR vs kibble is plainly evident.

To be told we are “silly and boring,” that nothing we say should be read seriously, or that our views are unscientific is grating. You claim to “sincerely hope I didn’t offend anyone” while being insulting in the extreme.

Bill

[Reese B]

Hi guys,
This will be a long post.
So, with the new “grain free scare” I’ve been thinking about trying raw or freeze dried raw. I was looking at primal products but couldn’t figure out why the nutrition profiles were so different from their raw vs. freeze dried. On the website they state that their freeze dried is exactly the same as their raw except the moisture is removed. So I wrote them to find out more. Below is my e-mail exchange so far….

ME:
I’m new to raw and looking for a lower fat option. I’m on the fence between raw frozen and freeze dried and was looking over the products on your website to see if any fit the bill of what I was looking for.
I noticed your frozen raw rabbit formula was low fat at 17% protein and 5% fat.
I then looked at the freeze dry formula and was surprised to see the protein is listed at 50% and the the fat is 28%.
When I did the math to convert the frozen formula to a dry matter basis I got that the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%

17 / 29 x 100 = 58% for protein

5 / 29 x 100 = 17% for fat

Did I do the math wrong? I don’t understand why the protein and fat is so different on for your frozen vs freeze dried rabbit formula if the ingredient are the same.
If you could explain, that would be greatly appreciated.

PRIMAL’S REPLY:
Thank you for contacting us. I can see how the math can get confusing. The nutritional values on our site are listed on an as-fed basis. Of course you’ll see that when you compare the guaranteed analysis of our freeze-dried formula to our raw frozen formula, the protein and fat levels in the freeze-dried varieties appear to be elevated at first glance. However, the key to understanding this difference lies in the moisture content. Since the moisture has been removed in the freeze-dried product, this causes the protein and fat levels to increase. For best feeding results, we recommend rehydrating with water. The weight of a freeze-dried nugget weighs less than that of a raw nugget because moisture has been removed. Nutritionally, a raw nugget is the same as a freeze-dried nugget when rehydrated or consumed with water.

ME:
I understand that the values are listed on as fed basis…but my question is regarding why the math doesn’t add up from your raw to freeze dried formula. If you re-read my original email you’ll see I’ve done the math to convert you raw formula to a dry formula and the values don’t match what is listed on the freeze-dried product.
If you convert the raw rabbit recipe into a dry matter basis, the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%. However that’s not what’s listed on the product. So I’m wondering how did you determine the values for the freeze dried formula?

(EDIT: I didn’t get a reply to the above email, so I wrote to them again.)

ME:
I haven’t heard back from anyone regarding this. Maybe I’m not asking my question in a way that makes sense. Let me try to explain…
I understand that freeze dried food will always have higher nutritional values because the moisture is removed making it a higher concentration, however, the values on your freeze dried product don’t make sense compared to your raw frozen product from a mathematical stand point.
For example, your frozen raw rabbit has a 17% protein and 5% fat. If I convert these to dry matter based on the formula on your blog (https://primalpetfoods.com/blogs/news/guaranteed-analysis-what-does-it-mean) it should be 58% for protein and 17% for fat.
% guarantee ÷ dry matter x 100
17 ÷ 29 x 100 = 58% for protein
5 ÷ 29 x 100 = 17% for fat
However, on your freeze dried rabbit nuggets the protein is listed as 53% and the fat is listed as 28%.
There is no way the fat in the freeze dried product should be that high if it’s the same ingredients/formula as the frozen raw. I’ve noticed several other of your freeze dried formula’s are listing fat at a much higher percentage than it should be.
Please explain to me how you are getting the values for your freeze dried products.

PRIMAL:
I apologize for my delay in response but greatly appreciate your patience! Please see below for assistance with your conversion:
1. The Protein/Fat content printed on the packaging is usually the exact lab result, and may depend on the source and part of the rabbit tested*.
2. Approximate average figures are generally 3 X Frozen values:
PFF Calculated Frozen : Protein (17), Fat (5) – Approximate – Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (51), Fat (15) – Approximate
– PFF Actual Freeze-dried : Protein (50), Fat (28) – Actual lab results*(Variability in raw source)
– Customer Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (58), Fat (17) – Approximate
We suggest using PPF calculated amount to make the final decision.

ME:
Thanks for your response. I’d like to make sure that I understand this correctly. When the lab tested both the raw and freeze dried, they got different values for fat and protein for both formula’s (even though they are the same), because different or fattier parts of the rabbit could have been used in the freeze dried batch?
The approximate average figures are generally 3x the frozen value, but it this case it’s 6x the fat. ( 5% fat in the raw rabbit vs 28% fat in the freeze dried rabbit.)
Do you lab test each batch for protein and fat content, as it seems it can vary considerably.
On the freeze dried product it states that 28% is the minimum fat content, meaning it could be higher, but not lower.
This is where I’m confused because if the raw frozen and freeze dried are essentially the same product (just with moisture removed) the freeze dried variety had a much higher fat content than the raw…meaning different batches have different fat content. So it’s impossible to say that the minimum fat in the freeze dried rabbit is 28%, right? There are batches that could have less fat depending on the source and part of the rabbit tested.
Please let me know if this is correct.

PRIMAL:
While we are required to list guaranteed analysis information in terms of minimums and maximums, the values we’ve chosen to post are not actually a minimum or a maximum. We list the actual values that we receive from our lab tests.

ME:
That doesn’t make sense to me. You’re required to list guaranteed information in terms of minimum and maximum, but you’re choosing not to? I’m not trying to be difficult, I just genuinely don’t understand. Should I disregard the minimum/maximum values on your packaging?
YOU didn’t answer my other questions. Do you test each batch for fat/protein content? How did you decide what is listed on the freeze dried package in terms of protein and fat? Did you test multiple batches and give an average or did you only test one batch and print those results on all of the packaging?
Based on your previous emails I’m assuming that the fat content on the freeze dried product is much higher than the fat listed on the frozen raw product because of “the source or part of rabbit.”
But that being said, in other batches of food a leaner rabbit source could be used making the fat content lower. So am I correct in saying the 28% fat is not the definite minimum and could be much lower in other batches depending on the rabbit source?

(I sent that last e-mail to primal on Aug 2nd, and I have not gotten a reply back since.
Does what they’re saying make sense to anyone? I thought they were required to list minimum or maximum values….any thoughts?)

[Acroyali]

What Bill said.
Raw fed dogs usually have good dental health without the aids of dental chews and routine cleanings. I dislike putting my dogs under and aim to avoid it.
Non raw fed dogs, usually, do not have excellent dental health through a lifetime, unless provided with safe chews daily (RMB’s), and have owners diligent with tooth brushing.
A correct bite and a strong root structure plays a part, as our raw fed pet with a terrible bite and a terrible root structure often times have issues despite RMB’s, but it’s more rare than the regular dog with a sound bite/root structure eating kibble and chomping down Greenies.
No matter what we feed, when we evaluate a pup we look for a good bite. Parents must have a good bite, or at least the bitch if the sire is off site. When teeth fit together well, good dental health usually follows. When the jaw is over or undershot, poor dental health usually follows….with kibble fed dogs/cats, it’s a few years (or months with the little guys), with raw fed dogs, it’s a few years and (in our experience) less intense even with the little guys. It depends on so many factors.

I’ve seen dogs eat dental chews, Greenies, Denta-stix, CET chews, and they chomp off 1/3 of the chew, chomp, swallow, chomp off another 1/3, chew once, swallow, and then swallow the rest of the chew whole.
I cannot fathom how that does a damned bit of good for their dental health.
Our dogs plow through RMB’s and huge hunks of rubbery tripe and it takes them a good bit of time to do so. Their teeth are gorgeous.
Can I see what’s going on behind their gumline? Of course not. But I can’t see what’s going on behind the gumline of my own teeth and I can’t look inside my own body and detect cancers or organ malfunction, etc….
Sometimes, common sense prevails.

[Spy Car]

Hi Aimee,

I think that it is you who had made the classic mistake. You take the absence of evidence as evidence. That is not a valid approach.

Unfortunately, veterinary studies are almost always funded by pet food companies and they have no interest in proving the superiority of a PMR diet in maintaining healthy teeth vs a commercial diet. So there are no studies.

Many will then attempt to argue that “there are no studies that show…” as if that proves anything (when all it shows are lack of studies).

Meanwhile, there are many thousands of well-networked PMR feeders who raise dogs, see with their own eyes all the advantages (which include, but are not limited to, cleaner teeth) and we take our dogs to veterinarians for examinations and get great reports on oral health.

In contrast, 70-80% of kibble fed dogs have periodontal disease by the time they are three. Three-years-old. And it only gets worse. Feeding kibble diet is a virtual guarantee of developing periodontal disease.

It is not the case with a PMR diet. We don’t see that in our community. A community made up of avid dog trainers and some of the most experienced handlers of elite canine athletes. People who know dogs.

It is not true that dogs with periodontal disease won’t show signs as all one need to do is look at the gums for signs of inflammation and health to have a pretty good clue.

The “studies” you referred to are not relevant.

As to tooth damage or tooth wear, it is certainly possible to cause wear or fractures/breakages by feeding hard weight-bearing bones from large animals. That’s why many PMR feeders (like myself) advocate for eliminating so-called “recreational” bones from the diet.

Soft-edible bones (like chicken bones) virtually eliminate both risks to teeth and impactions issues, but anti-raw activists like to focus on items I personally don’t feed as if that’s the only option.

Of course, the visible portion of the tooth is whiter in PMR fed dogs. It is the same at the gum line and below. My vet confirms this at examination time. No hint of the periodontal disease most kibble fed dogs have at his age.

I’m afraid that the improper use of non-germaine studies and the error of the absence of evidence as evidence has put you on the wrong side of gauging the reality of the dental health of kibble-fed dogs vs PMR fed dogs. You are simply dead wrong on the issue.

Feeding a PMR diet using soft-edible bones (while avoiding risky weight-bearing bones) maximizes canine dental health. The alternative virtually guarantees periodontal disease.

There are few areas in dog rearing, canine nutrition and health where the contrast between the dreadful consequences of kibble-feeding and a PMR diet is starker. Yet you attempt to accuse me of a non-scientific worldview? Please. Spare me.

You are on the wrong side of all the very clear evidence.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Spy Car.

[Susan]

Hi Gabrielle,
You wrote, I have a German shepherd mix of some kind that was “rescued off the streets”. When you rescued her what condition did she come in & was she wormed then wormed again 2-3 weeks later?? she may of had the hook worm when you rescued her?

I rescued a English Staffordshire Bull Terrier in very poor condition, weeing blood then pooing blood, he had Stomach & bowel problems but I didnt know about his intestinal problems till he ate certain foods & was doing sloppy, jelly poos with blood streaked thru his poo & then he’d have like your girl had Diarrhea he couldn’t control from Food Sensitivities… Lentils & boiled Rice, boiled rice irritates his bowel, he does best eating Sweet potatoes & Potatoes as main carb in dry kibbles…also Boiled sweet Potato with his pork rissoles I make or I buy a dog food in pet fridge section that is Lamb, Coconut & veggies balls & it has sweet potato….he eats these foods for lunch..

I put my cat food up on a scratching post/tree now, the scratching post thing has ground level, a middle level & a top section where there’s a big shelf, I have put a big ceramic tile there & I feed Indy all her foods on her scratching post shelf this way Patch can not get tempted & eat any of her food & then have one of his IBD flares.

Has your vet put her on Metronidazole for 21-28 days? Metronidazole is excellent for inflammation of stomach & bowel & bad bacteria over growth, I think she needs more then the probiotic to help heal her intestinal tract. My vet writes Patch repeat scripts of Metronidazole to keep at home so when I see he’s becoming unwell again I start him on Metronidazole x 200mg tablet every 12 hours with a meal for 21 days…

I would change her diet & would start her on a dry food that has just 1 novel protein & 1 carb, has medium protein % around 28-34% & is medium in fat around 12 to 15% fat & low in carbs 32% less or start her on a Hypoallergenic vet diet & do a food elimination food diet to work out what foods she might be too?? the vet diet she is eating at the moment could be making her Intestinal tract more inflammed if she is sensitive too certain ingredient in the vet diet she is eating, ask your vet can put her on a 21 day course of Metronidazole & can you change her vet diet? not all vet diets suit all dogs health problems, my boy tried all the Hills & Royal Canine Intestinal vet diets, none of them helped him till we tried Eukanuba/Iams Intestinal Low Residue dry kibble, this helped his IBD, then after 9 months when his bowel had healed I started introducing a grain free dry kibble that had Lamb only protein & Sweet Potatoes, Potatoes, Egg & Peas & he did really well with his skin & intestinal tract…..
Are you feeding 3 smaller meals a day, divide how much she should eat a day & split into 3 meals, so stomach/bowel works less digesting smaller meals, I feed 4 smaller meals a day 7am- under 1 cup dry kibble, 12pm-at lunch time Patch gets a small wet meal about 1/2 a cup, 5pm – under 1 cup dry & 8pm-1/3 a cup dry…..

Patch is doing well eating “Wellness Core” Large Breed Adult formula, it is low in Kcals-345per cup, this is what you need to look at, how high are the Kcals per cup & stay under 360 Kcals per cup, the higher the Kcals the more dense the dry kibble is, so more work on stomach & bowel to digest…also the lower the fat% & lower protein % is, the higher the carbs will be….
I asked Patches vet to do an Endoscope + Biopsies on Patch December 2013, you need the Biopsies so vet knows what is wrong & treat with medications if she still isnt better after 1 yr…. the first Endoscope & Biopsies Patch had 1 yr after I rescued him, Biopsies show he had moderate chronic lymphocytic gastritis with a lymphocytic nodule present in the deeper mucosa of one section, variable numbers of spiral bacteria present, (Helicobacter-Spiral bacteria) Some gastric pits are mildy dilated. He was always hungry & had dirrahea on & off..
Then Patch had another Endoscope & Biopsies done January 2018 this year when he went down hill real quickly after we moved, he stopped eating his favorite kibble & the whole time I’ve owned Patch he never refuses any food, only when he has his rumbling, grumbling loud bowel noises early hours of the morning, then he doesn’t want to eat, which isnt a bad thing, dogs are smart & they know when to rest their stomach & bowel… this time his poos were firm, then the next day sloppy, then diarrhea & he was eating the same dry food, he kept swolling & swolling wierd noises, he had bad acid reflux, crying with pain & wasn’t his happy go lucky self, he had a sore throat, I thought he had bowel or stomach cancer this time, biopsies showed he had mild lymphoplasmacytic and eosinophilic gastritis with spiral bacteria again…
but in the “Comment” section the Veterinary Pathologist wrote,
Sections of the small intestine could not be fully assessed because of inadequate sampling..

Patches vet said the flap between the stomach & Esophagus isnt closing properly so his stomach acids are washing back up into his throat & his wind pipe was badly inflammed & there’s nothing he can do to fix the flap, Patch was put on 21 day course of triple therapy meds… & I kept trying all different dry foods that wouldnt make him swollow as much, the Nutro grounded rice & lamb kibble work best but the kibbles that had grains were causing “big” sloppy poos or diarrhea, he needed to eat a grainfree diet without Lentils & Chickpeas which is very hard to find a grainfree dry kibble that are Legume free, finally in Australia we are getting new dry Kibbles that are Legume free which will be good for Patch but some are high in fat around 16-18% fat, this causes bad acid reflux.. 🙁

Once you find foods/ ingredients she can eat then she will get better, she needs ingredients that will not irritate her stomach & bowel more, sounds like her bowel is inflammed & she needs medication to help heal, a good diet that’s easy to digest so everything can heal…
Think back what was she eating & was doing really well on?? try that again or something similiar & feed 3 smaller meals a day, see does she settle down, also keep a diary just incase over the years she developes IBD & keeps having flares….
also becareful with weight loss/weight management dry kibbles as they are higher in fiber & carbs…around 12-14% fat isnt that high for a dog, when they eat raw diet its normally around 30-50% in fat… look at Freeze dried diets they’re heaps better then dry processed kibbles..

[Amelia Z]

Well, here’s an update. I found a food with no grains, no potatoes, no legumes, low carbs and it’s 90% meat. It is in between raw and freeze dried. I just started it so we’ll see how they do. It’s called the Real Meat Company. (http://www.realmeatpet.com/) It looks and smelled good. Here are the ingredients in the beef:
Ingredients
Beef, Beef Lung, Beef Liver, Ground Beef Bone, Vegetable Glycerin, Pumpkin, Inulin (from Chicory Root), Mixed Tocopherols (used as a preservative), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Parsley, Rosemary, Selenium Yeast, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement (Vitamin B3), Manganese Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate (source of Iodine), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin D3 Supplement.

[Acroyali]

Avoid professional dental cleanings, feed RMB’s, rec bones when applicable and huge chunks of raw green tripe.

Problem solved.

Save your money on these expensive “plastic” dental chews. Watch a dog eat a greenie or denta stick. They bite of huge chunks and swallow them whole. Hello, intestinal surgery as some here like to blame on raw ;D
Raw vegetables and carrots and such are no better. Dogs chew off huge hunks and swallow them whole. RMB’s are much tougher to gnaw through and are eaten much more slowly. Fed large. A small dog should get a chunk of food much larger than their head. With tripe, it’s boneless and is an excellent food for teeth cleaning meals.

I wouldn’t waste my money on these plastic treats shaped to resemble toothbrushes when most dogs chew through them in 3-4 bites and swallow. How is that doing a damn thing for their teeth?

[susan k]

Hi all, I also feed Wellness Core (my dog has been on it since I got him two years ago) and also contacted Wellness by phone. They do add taurine to their formula and told me companies that are suspect are being contacted by the FDA — Wellness has not been contacted. As a helicopter dog mom this wasn’t enough information for me so I did some digging. Wellness Core does have peas as its fifth ingredient — kind of high up the chain — and the problem seems to be that peas, lentils, etc., are blocking taurine absorption, which is what’s causing the problems with heart failure. I spent a lot of time reading labels for other foods and got scared off by all the added chemicals the larger manufacturers use. I considered home cooking, but I’ve had some experience with this and it can be hard to find the right supplements to add — my last dog loved home cooking but hated the supplement powder I was adding to her food. So I asked my vet if they could run a taurine test on my dog, my theory being that if after two years on Wellness Core his taurine level is OK the added taurine to the food is enough to head off heart problems. My vet thought that was a reasonable approach and said they usually run taurine tests (simple blood test) on cats but it can be run on dogs. I scheduled my dog for a taurine test. If you decide to try this, be sure it’s done right — my dog had blood drawn today but because they don’t do this very often the vet tech put the sample in the wrong tube and they have to draw more blood and do it again. I scheduled for Tuesday morning and should have the results back later next week. I will post the results in case people are interested in whether Wellness Core is still one of the safer foods.

[anonymous]

Why does my dog need dental work if I only feed a raw diet?
“Raw food diets are often based on uncooked meats, bones and vegetables. Some people report that their dog’s teeth appear “cleaner” and have less tartar when fed a raw diet. This is probably because of the increased chewing action which does provide some benefit. However, the incidence of fractured teeth increases in dogs that are eating bones. Periodontal disease can also develop hidden underneath the gum line, even without tartar on the teeth, where it will not be seen until your pet is anesthetized for a full examination and dental cleaning”. excerpt from: https://vetdentistrynm.com/about-us/faq/

[aimee]

Spycar,

Not a lot of research but so far what has been published hasn’t shown a protective benefit of a “natural” diet. The following is an excerpt from “Impact of Nutrition on Dental issues in companion animals” Chandler 2014

“Proponents of natural foods or of feeding raw bones have claimed this will improve the cleanliness of teeth in pets; further claims are sometimes made that feeding commercial pet food contributes to the high prevalence of periodontal disease in domesticated cats and dogs.
However, a study in foxhounds fed raw carcases, including raw bones, showed they had varying degrees of periodontal disease as well as a high prevalence of tooth fractures (Robinson and Gorrel, 1997).
The skulls of 29 African wild dogs eating a “natural diet”, mostly wild antelope, showed evidence of periodontal disease (41 per cent), teeth wearing (83 per cent) and fractured teeth (48 per cent; Steenkamp and Gorrel, 1999).
A study in small feral cats on Marion Island (South Africa) that had been eating a variety of natural foods (mostly birds) showed periodontal disease in 61 per cent of cats, although only nine per cent had evidence of calculus (Verstraete et al, 1996).
In a study in Australia of feral cats eating a mixed natural diet there was less calculus compared to domestic cats fed dry or canned commercial food, although, again, there was no difference in the prevalence of periodontal disease between the two groups (Clarke and Cameron, 1998)

These studies show a natural diet, or one containing raw bones, does appear to confer some
protection against dental calculus, but not against the more destructive periodontal disease. There is also the risk of fractured teeth”

[anonymous]

PS: Will she chew on a raw carrot? One of my dogs loves them. You can freeze them to make them even more crunchy.
Don’t get baby carrots, they are bleached/chemically treated and a choking hazard due to their size.

[Patricia A]

Reese maybe we should copy n paste our posts on the dog food nutrition forum, diet and health or dog food ingredients. Think it would fit under those forums better and maybe get some help with this. I’m also trying to figure out if the Stella chewys Rabbit is less fat then Primal. My brain is fried from trying to figure out these labels. Why do WE have to do it. All I know is that when I look under the reviews of advisor he puts under the raw lets say high protein/average fat/low carbs and when I look under same brand with same protein but freeze dried he has a different review of maybe high protein/HIGH fat/low carbs. Maybe that’s why my chubby is not losing weight since switching to freeze dried. Maybe I’m giving her MORE fat then when I was giving some Fromm kibble and canned? Will call Primal tomorrow and Stella’s also and pin them down about this.

[Patricia A]

I also have the same question with the fat in raw primal vs. the freeze dried of the same protein. I love the freeze dried but have a chubby Chi that needs less fat. Although I keep reading that it’s not the fat but the carbs which cause weight gain. Pancreatitis is a problem though for some dogs with high fat.
Written on Primal’s website it states that once rehydrated Nutritionally, a raw nugget is the same as a freeze-dried nugget when rehydrated or consumed with water! Does that mean the fat is the same as the raw?
Hope someone can explain about raw vs freeze dried with the same recipe.
I was under the impression that once hydrated the fat in the freeze dried would be the SAME as the raw?

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.

[Reese B]

Hi,
I was looking for a lower fat raw food for my dog and noticed the primal raw rabbit recipe had 17% protein and only 5% fat. This looked like a good option. Since I don’t feed raw regularly, I thought I’d start with the freeze dried version but noticed that the protein listed was 53% and the fat was 28%. The ingredients were the same, the only difference is supposed to be that one is freeze dried.
I know that because the freeze dried product has no moisture that the values would be higher, but his seemed too high.
I calculated the raw version to a dry matter content as shown in this article: /choosing-dog-food/dry-matter-basis/

and I got that the freeze dried version should have 58% protein and 17% fat. Big difference from what’s listed on the freeze dried rabbit.

I email primal in a very detailed email explaining my question and asking how they determined the dry value as it didn’t match up to what I calculated. I got a very disappointing response back saying that “because the moister is removed, the value is higher in the freeze dried but both product were exactly the same.” It was very condescending and it seemed like they didn’t even read my e-mail as I had explained that I was aware of that.

Anyway, my question is, does the values that primal lists on their raw and freeze dried product make sense? Did I do the math wrong? Links for both products below.

Canine Raw Frozen Nuggets <br> Rabbit

Canine Freeze-Dried Nuggets <br> Rabbit

[Susan]

Hi,
Doodles are known for skin allergies, are you on facebook? join this group a few Doodle owners are in the group, “Dog Allergies, Issues and Other Information Support Group”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DogAllergiesIssuesandOtherInformationSupporGroup/

The only true way to test what foods your dog is sensitive too is to do a food elimination diet & do it in the cooler months, not Spring & Summer when pollens, flowers, allergens are high…
These Blood, Salvia & Hair/Fur test give false positives. My vet told me when some of her clients push to have the blood test done even thought she has told them you’re wasting your money, my vet said she has found the foods the dog is eating at the time will come up as a positive… When your dog had his blood test was he eating any of these ingredients rice, pork, peas & potatoes etc that came back positive?? if you do the blood test again it will come back with different food allergens & not the same ones, this is why it’s not realiable…. also as the dog ages their allergies get worse, my boy suffers with Seasonal Evironment allergies (Only bad Spring & Summer )& food sensitivites, he’ll be turning 10yrs old Nov & 2017 Summer till now which is Winter in Australia has been the worst year I’ve had with him, his vet told me it will get worse & wants him on Apoquel before Summer comes in a 4months, he reacted really bad last Summer Dec 2017 & had a really bad IBD flare which attacked his Esophagus, I nilly put him too sleep in Febuary this year but his vet begged me to please wait another month for Summer to finish…..Finally in April he started to get better after I started to feed him “Wellness Core” Large Breed dry kibble…

I’d say your dog is suffering from Environment Allergies in the Summer months & has food sensitivities, keep a diary & you will start to see a pattern as the seasons & years pass, he’ll be worse thru the hotter months, he’ll do better in the cooler winter months as long as he isn’t eating anything he’s sensitive too, it’s best to change foods etc when Winter is approaching when outdoor allergens aren’t as high & won’t interfer with your food elimination trial…

Have you tried a Hypoallergenic vet diet? you can do elimination food diet with these Hypoallergenic vet diets…once your dog is doing well on 1 of the Hypoallergenic vet diets & doesn’t have any skin problems this is when you introduce 1 new ingredient to his diet & introduce 1 of the foods that came up positive in his blood test, start him on Potato or rice, boil some potatoes & add 2 spoons potatoe with his vet diet meals or give the boiled potatoe or rice as a treat & see does he start reacting, it can take from 20mins up to 6 weeks for the dog to start reacting to an ingredient when he’s sensitive, my dog reacts within 20mins after eating an ingredient he’s sensitive too.. you fed either the rice or potatoes for 6 weeks only stop feeding if he reacts to the potatoe..
Its not the starches in the food he’s sensitive too its the protein in the food he’ll react too….
I nilly forgot “BATHS” weekly baths or as soon as he is itchy, rolling rubbing on grass, carpets, licking scratching give him a bath twice a week is best thru the hot months…
Baths wash off all allergens on skin paws face etc I use ” Malaseb” medicated shampoo its relieves itchy skin & paws..

Have you looked are “Freeze Dried Raw formula’s instead of dry kibbles?

* “Ziwi Peak”
https://www.ziwipets.com/catalog/ziwi-peak-dog-nutrition

* “Farmina” Natural & Delicious or the other Farmina formula’s
https://www.farmina.com/us/d-dog-food.html

* “Canidae” Pure Ancestral Raw Grain Free coated formula’s..
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-grain-free-pure-ancestral-raw-coated-dry-fish-formula-with-salmon-mackerel-pollock-whitefish-tuna/

Just make sure any grain free kibbles you feed are under 20% in Legumes or are Legume free.. Until FDA finds out why Lemuges is blocking Taurine….

[HoundMusic]

“I would like to know who funded the article. UC Davis has done studies in the past that turned out to be inaccurate (feeding raw) and they frequently have Science Diet, Royal Canin and Purina products in their pictures. It seems like with cat food issues years ago why advise against grainfree and simply add taurine? Makes me wonder if certain companies want to stop the hype of healthy food.”

It’s not inaccurate simply because you don’t believe it. UC Davis found nutritional deficiencies in 200 raw food recipes that were collected from published recipes, and advised owners to consult with a nutritionist before feeding home prepared diets. That’s it. There were actually no inaccuracies in the statement, however, a website called “Truth About Pet Food” claims they overestimated how much of certain nutrients a dog required; ergo, in their version of logic, UC Davis made an error. If you believe UC Davis’ advice to seek out a Veterinary nutritionalist before going into a raw diet makes them disreputable, your definition of the word must be very narrow.

BTW, I’m so sick of hearing that there is some Veterinary agenda to keep pets sick to line their own pockets, and quite honestly, I’ve had so many bad Vets that I’m no fan of the profession.

[Lisa T]

Hi all,

I have an 8-month old puppy who weighs about 16.5 lbs. We have had him for 6 months, and this is my first puppy…so please be patient with me 🙂

About a month and a half ago, Milo had diarrhea. After 2 days, I took him to the vet. The vet gave him Flagyl, and told me to feed him boiled chicken and steamed rice, perhaps with a little canned pumpkin mixed in. This firmed up the stool so that it was “soft” rather than true diarrhea. The fecal test came back negative.

We continued the diet as suggested. Then it seemed like there was a day and a half where he would strain/squat, but nothing came out. We went back to the vet, and this time, they gave us an antibiotic, and also a probiotic (both a paste and capsules). We finished those, and the stools seem to firm up a bit…but as soon as we add even a little bit of kibble in (originally Diamond Naturals Chicken & Rice, then Stella & Chewy Raw Coated, then and now TOTW that doesn’t have chicken in it)…it goes back to soft serve ice cream consistency.

Milo is a happy camper. He does not seem sick at all. He still only poops 2-3 times per day, and never has accidents.

I am worried that so many weeks on chicken and rice is not good for him. The vet has now suggested I bring him in for an expensive malabsorption blood panel.

Could it be a chicken allergy?
Could it be the flea medication he took a couple of days before this all started?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you!

[Patricia A]

LOL Anon. Just can’t win. My dogs were on Fromm for years and did great. I switched to Stella and Chewy’s because I thought the hype about it being BAKED and less processed of course would be healthier .I don’t know but my three love the kibble. It’s also a smaller bag and now that I use very little as a base to freeze dried it stays fresher. But now I look at the ingredients on their small breed red meat and peas are their third ingredient. On their f/b page this is their reply to all the concerns regarding this: “we are aware of the FDA release dated July 12 regarding a potential association between reports of canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs, and certain pet foods containing peas, lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes as main ingredients. We have no indication that any of our products are involved in FDA’s investigation. We work closely with veterinarians and nutritionists to ensure that our diets are complete and balanced and meet AAFCO requirements. Please know that our freeze-dried raw and frozen raw diets are free of peas, lentils and potatoes, and contain less than 1% of the legume seed fenugreek. Also, we do add taurine to our raw and kibble diets. We continue to be confident in the safety and nutritional quality of all of our diets. We appreciate the work that FDA does on behalf of pet parents, and will monitor this investigation as it unfolds.” Stupid response when the problem possibly IS regarding legumes. lol
I do like the ingredients of that Fromm recipe though. Like I said I only use it as a very little base to the freeze dried. I think will switch it up again with the Fromm that doesn’t have all the peas regardless of the beet pulp. Thank’s for sharing that.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by Patricia A.

[Susan]

Hi
I think people are confusing these health problems caused by Legumes with Potatoes aswell…
Earlier this month, the Food and Drug Administration announced that it is investigating a link between these newer Exotic protein, high Legume Grain Free diets with a common type of canine heart disease, DCM.
FDA also mentioned Potatoes awell but I think Potatoes were only mentioned cause these newer grain free kibbles have Peas, Chickpeas & Potatoes, or they’ll have Peas, Green Lentils, Red lentils & Sweet Potatoes….
So Potatoes were mentioned on the FDA report??…
“Guilit by association”
I have seen NO proof that it’s potatoes blocking taurine & causing heart problems in dogs?
If anyone has any proof that potatoes are blocking taurine causing deficiency of Amino Acid Taurine in Dogs.
Please post this proof..

When G/F kibbles first came out years ago they all had Potatoes & Sweet Potatoes & there were NO health problems in dogs..
There’s kibbles that have healthy grains & potatoes, these kibbles have caused no health problems, these health problems happened since these newer G/F kibbles were very high in Legumes…
Types of Legumes
Chickpeas.
Beans.
Peas.
Lentils.
Lupins.

Royal Canine & Hills make vet formula’s that contain Potatoes but they do not have any vet diets containing Legumes..???

Potatoes are not related to Legumes.
Legumes are the fruit or pod of the botanical family Leguminosae. The potato tuber (Solanaceae family) is actually the greatly enlarged tip of the underground stem of the potato.
Potatoes are a Tublr plant with notable tuberous roots include sweet potato, cassava….

If you’re looking for a new kibble look for kibbles that have Sweet potatoes, Rice, Oats, Potatoes, Blueberries, Butternut Squash, Pumkin, healthy grains etc as long as your dog doesn’t have any food sensitivitives to certain grains & ingredients…
Make sure there’s no more then 20% legumes (peas) in the dry kibble, if the kibble has peas just make sure the peas are further down the ingredient list, 5th 6th 7th ingredient & peas are NOT 1st 2nd 3rd or 4th ingredient…

Here’s a kibble ingredient list that I’d avoid, this formula is very high in Legumes….

“Kangaroo, Kangaroo Meal, Peas, Chickpeas, Pea Flour, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Citric Acid), Flaxseed, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Pea Protein, Natural Flavors, Salt,”

*There’s Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Chickpeas & Peas, all these Legume ingredients make the protein % higher with Plant Proteins, Kangaroo is expensive so there’s more plant proteins, then meat proteins also look at ingredient spliting with peas? peas are 3rd ingredients, then again Pea Flour is 5th ingredient, then pea protein is 11th ingredient, if they didn’t split the peas up then the peas would probably have been 1st or 2nd ingredient…

also rotate your kibbles with different brands, so your dog has variety in his diet, if 1 brand of kibble does have something wrong with it, your dog isnt eating this brand long enough to cause any health problems cause your rotating his diet….

Look at Freeze Dried raw aswell, there’s some good freeze dried dog foods, the freeze dried ingredients are not cooked at very high temperatures like kibble is made so the nutrients stays in the ingredients….

“Ingredient spliting” is a trick these Pet Food Companies do, they split the peas up, in the ingredient list, pea flour, pea protein, pea fiber, when you see these ingredient avoid these dog foods as they are full of peas, the peas are really the 1st ingredient but cause they have split the peas into pea flour, pea protein, pea fiber, then the peas move further down the ingredient list but really the peas are 1st ingredient & your meat protein is probably 3rd ingredient….
Ingredient list are written when ingredients are raw, not cooked, these pet food companies know all the tricks & cons so we buy their foods, we just have to be smarter then them & learn how to read an ingredient list..

Please post kibble brands & their formula’s that are legume free or 20% or less in legumes, to help people that dont know what to feed till we get more answers..
Please no nasty posts…

[Eve M]

After consideration, I’m going back to Orijen although the contaminant numbers are high. I will supplement it with Primal frozen raw and hope the mixture isn’t too much of either. There are no lentils or peas in Orijen.

I agree with you Carol. It seems like someone could tweak the recipe and leave out tapioca, peas, lentils and potatoes.

Quinoa? Brown rice? Are these grains on par with lentils?

Eve

[Lisa G]

YES! I started transitioning my dogs & sons dog & a family members dog(his dog was living with us for about 8mos) from RR chicken kibble & they all had issues. I did it slowly as we should but didnt matter. I believe its whatevers in it or what they took out, who knows. My family members dog Ranger got HORRIBLY sick off of it & did a google search myself- its not uncommon for dogs to have this reaction to RR gain free kibble & many dogs just dont tolerate grain free. My opinion based on experiences is unless your pet has an allergy to grains, a grain free diet isnt good for them.My dogs, sons dog, Ranger & even my cat have had reactionary issues with grain free foods.As soon as I realized they were alll getting diarrhea, nausea , some vomitingl, ethargic I took them off it and put them on striclty RR chicken kibble, as they were. Within a 1/2 day to a day they were all getting better.They recovered fairly quickly. It took Ranger a few days to recover(he had it the worse because hes a bigger dog so maybe because he had the most??? I dont recall the ingredients but I will never feed any of my pets grain free, especially RRs. I did write to the company & after a long drawn out exchange of emails they sent me a coupon to replace the bag as we didnt use very much. It wasnt cool how they treated me but in the end they did give me a coupon to replace the bag & my dogs enjoy RR so Ive stuck it out lol

[pitlove]

Lauren-

You are very welcome. Right now I feed Victor dry food. A lot of people seem to be using that food lately, even people that feed raw and kibble together. Might be a good option for you. A girl I follow on Insta gram who shows her pit bull uses the teal bag of Victor and mixes raw meat from the grocery with it. I would however stay away from the grain free line until the FDA can figure out what is going on with the DCM issue and grain free foods.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Lauren H:
For most of my dog’s life (7+ years old) the main part of his diet has been kibble w/ toppers and some home cooked meals a few times a week. I use commercial raw for some of his toppers with no issues and he loves it. I feed some kibble recipes from Pro Plan, Fromm, Exclusive, Purina One, Wellness, and Annamaet.

[Lauren H]

Pitlove,

That’s great to hear, thank you. I’m leaning towards a mix of raw and kibble just to make sure that they’re getting all of the nutrients needed in their diet. This is what my vet recommended and feels like the best choice for me and my family. My vet recommended Wysong adult dog food. Does anyone have a favorite kibble that they like to mix with raw? I’d imagine most raw feeders are strict and only feed raw but would be curious if anyone here mixes the two.

Pitlove, thanks again!

[pitlove]

Lauren-

The girl that runs The Raw Feeding Community has stated that research has shown that feeding raw and kibble together is not a problem.

[Lauren H]

Forgot to add that my labs breath doesn’t smell anymore and his tartar almost completely disappeared after only a couple weeks of raw feeding. He stopping drinking a ton of water and consumes a normal amount now. My shiba is actually excited for meal time now and finishes his food, unlike before it was a total battle to get him to try to eat. He was rather skinny but now my vet says that he is a perfect weight.

[Lauren H]

Thank you so much for all the replies!! Great to get others opinion and experience. I still go back and forth on feeding raw but have seen so many improvements with all three of my dogs in doing so. I’m receptive to veterinary ‘science’, but I also understand that there is a lot of influence and funding coming from these commercial foods as well. Also, most vets have very minimal training in nutrition. My vet is actually an advocate for raw, just wants it to be from a well known and trusted raw dog food company, but even he said that he’s no nutritionist. Sounds like maybe I just need to bite the bullet and pay for quality raw to be safe.

acroyali- thank you for taking such time to write such a detailed response. I was ordering from hare-today but after their shipping prices increased for the summer, I stopped buying from them. I started ordering from raising-rabbits.com instead. Have you or anyone else heard about them or their quality?

Like I said earlier, I’ve seen huge benefits to feeding raw. In my lab mix with Addison’s, before raw, he was drinking a ton of water and I mean a ton! He had horrible breath and he had a lot of tartar on his teeth. My shiba mix would eat about 2 meals worth of kibble and then quit eating eating it either because he was bored or just didn’t like the taste, no matter the brand, protein, etc- we tried it all. My shiba seems to be less anxious too. Our 5 month old puppy was the first dog that we started on raw from 8 weeks raw, she’s done great on raw. No bouts of diarrhea, never gotten sick, and has been a dream to house train.

My vet said that I could mix kibble with the raw to help with the costs. I’ve read a lot of conflicting information on this, any thoughts? I’m certainly open to switching back to kibble but would be hard pressed to go all the way back since my dogs are clearly doing so much better on raw. There isn’t a whole lot of scientific proof on raw feeding but who’s funding these other ones saying that raw is harmful for dogs? Just to be safe though, I think I will stop feeding them grocery store meat and stick with the ones I can buy at a pet store. I’ll check out mypetcarnivore as well. How much veggies do you all like to add?

Sorry this ended up being so long but again, I greatly appreciate your time and responses.

[Patricia A]

I feed Stella’s raw coated and also not happy about peas already starting with their 3rd ingredient. My three are used to kibble as a base and I’ve been giving less and less and substituting calories with freeze dried proteins. Can’t really win with kibble or canned since most grain free has peas, legumes etc starting at latest 4th ingredient. If not grain free it’s then full of potatoes and lentils as 3rd ingredients. If it’s not that it’s worrisome things like Carrageenan being added. One day they’ll all get it right.