[jakes mom]

Many people on this site feed raw. Check out the raw forum here, you’ll find good info and a lot of support. Some say their pet’s problems cleared up completely once they were on a raw diet.

[Karen K]

This is so confusing….the more research I do, the less I know what to feed my itchy baby. Salmon has mercury, chicken causes allergies, menhaden fish meal can be very low quality in protein by the time it reaches the dog food factories, and on and on. Anyone tried the raw diets? They make me nervous because there have been some issues with bacteria related illness, but at least the food is whole. She is so used to having some cooked chicken with her kibble, I can’t imagine that she would eat any kibble by itself. Thanks to all for your help!

[Pitlove]

No I havent thought about doing that. She is already on an all canned diet and will eat any type of canned food be it pate, chunks in sauce, the human looking soup of Weruva, you name it she eats it. I felt like getting her on raw would be easy cuz of that. Also I’m thinking theres a chance it could be cheaper for me than feeding canned, even though she can only finish one 3oz can at each meal (dog and cat both eat twice daily about every 12 hours or so). I know you typically feed less with raw which is a bonus for me.

[Pitlove]

thank you! She is very sweet. such the lap cat, but i worry she has seperation anxiety. not sure though.

also on a side note. im thinking about going raw with her and i looked into darwin’s. i was really annoyed to find out that they basically make up an order for you and you are forced into buying chicken duck and turkey from them all in one order and you don’t get to decide how many lbs you want or what protein you want and you HAVE to do auto-ship. I wanted to just try it out with her to see if she would eat it and that makes it impossible to do.
C4C idk if you know of any good commercial raw diets similar to darwin’s that doesnt do that.

if anyone else has suggestions to i’d like to hear it. im also wondering if feeding her raw since she doesnt eat much would be more cost effective than canned food.

[MaggiesDad]

I’ve found through chatting to hundreds of dog owners over the years that many dogs have allergy issues with chicken first of all, closely followed by beef. The reason seems to be that over feeding one protein for a long period of time (some people make the mistake of always just feeding one food because their dog likes it) can cause the body to just suddenly decide it won’t deal with it any more, giving rise to numerous problems and allergic reactions. If this is likely to be the case, a break of a few months is advised before trying that protein again but be aware that it can only take one meal to cause the problems to reoccur, and months to rid the system of those problems! You should also note that just because a reaction has occurred feeding a dried chicken based kibble (for example) does NOT necessarily mean that the dog has an issue with raw chicken – just as an allergy to beef does not always mean that ALL beef is a problem – it may still be possible to feed beef offal for example without any issues. It can be very confusing and frustrating to get to the bottom of such issues, and it may be that the advise of a nutritionist is required as well as an elimination diet for a few months.

[MaggiesDad]

Give the guys at Allprovide (www.allprovide.com) a call (678-585-1606) – they had a dog with horrendous skin/yeast issues and switching to a raw diet saved her life. They’re always happy to talk about canine health issues and advise about diet and possible causes of problems. Their food has supplements in it such as coconut oil, salmon oil, turmeric etc all of which are good for coat and skin issues.

[Jennifer Y]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I have spoken to my vet about the results, and have considered contacting the holistic vet at my vet clinic. My dog’s insensitivity reactions has been mild enough that my vet and I decided to try an elimination diet.

Over the past 2 years, if I try to recall her vet appointments along with the kibble I feed her, she seems to be reactive to something in Orijen Regional Red. I believe it’s pork (since it’s the highest reactive ingredient that came back on the Nutriscan test as well). To play it safe, I began her on an elimination diet. So far, so good. No hot spots and no eye infections. When I get around to testing out pork, I will find out whether it’s been the culprit.

Susan, thanks for your input about the rice, duck and lamb. But the test indicated not to feed her anything that she showed a reaction to (mild or otherwise) in either IgA and IgM results. She unfortunately showed a medium reaction in lamb (IgA), strong reaction in duck (IgA) and a strong reaction in rice (IgA). Against the suggestion of the results, however, I have tried lamb in her elimination diet, and she seems to be doing alright. I do believe there is merit to Dr. Dodd’s test, and I trust her research. But in the case of my dog, I don’t think her intolerances are as severe as the test makes it seem. I’ve been giving her probiotics and coconut oil, which may have played a part in her doing better on her current food as well. I am also considering starting her on raw, but I’m still in the process on researching about raw before I fully dive into it.

Once again, thank you everyone for your suggestions. I really appreciate it 🙂

[Chloe K]

Hi there! I have a 12 week old German Shepherd boy and we just started a week ago on raw – We are currently feeding him a premade diet which is costing me a fortune so I would like to look into creating my own meal for him.

So far I’ve learned:

“2.5% of Bears weight (40kg) 1kg

45% Raw Meaty Bones – 450g
45% Muscle Meat – 450g
5% Organ Meat – – 50g

Your goal is to have no more than 20-25% actual bone in the diet.
25% of 450g is 112g”

This is what I have written down, I would like to feed him 2 meals a day when he is older, so that is 25g of offal per meal? Is that right? That seems like such a low amount?

Can I feed raw chicken and raw beef in the same meal?

Can I feed him say 125g of Turkey and 125g of Chicken for one meal, with 25g of beef liver? Is this okay? Should I do this?
How often should I really feed him fish? Twice a week? I think I would like to feed him a whole fish? Gilapia or Whiting Fillets are these a good choice? If not, what are some good choices? I’m trying my hardest to find Green Tripe in Australia but it’s proving difficult, I would like to add some veggies in his diet, which are the BEST? How often should I add them? I know I have to juice/blend them or else he won’t get the full benefit.

I am from Australia so I weigh things in grams and kgs
Is Kangaroo a good source of meat also? What about Kangaroo heart and liver?

Bear is going to puppy school today! I can say he will be the most handsome there

Here is a picture of my little guy 🙂

[J S]

Update on our 2 dogs with struvite crystals. The girl with the recurring UTIs and previous-to-being-adopted-stone-surgery is getting more water with her food and getting out to pee more often. Trying to be calmer on our walks so that she can pee as often as she wants/needs to (every five feet if there are good smells around!). She hasn’t exhibited the crawl-peeing of an infection the last two days and has never exhibited pain when peeing. As soon as the crawl-peeing showed up I added 500 mg of vit c to each meal and she’s already getting a scoop of Cranberry Relief in the morning and a scoop of Wysong Biotic Ph with dinner, and eating the Royal Canin S/O with a little wet food. I’m also using Colloidal Silver (10 drops each meal for 2 days, then 6 drops, until 2 days after symptoms ended. Her pH this morning was 6.75. I’ve used Vit C and colloidal silver on myself when I was told I had a UTI. I really dislike using antibiotics unless extremely necessary. Here’s a website on C.S. by a holistic vet: http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com/2013/08/colloidal-silver-diy-treatment-for-dogs.html . Our boy dog shows no signs of a UTI and his ph on regular diet is 5.75. Next time we run out of food I’m going to switch from All Stages Canidae to their grain-free version to see if that will help with our girl. If anyone has found a difference using distilled water please let me know. I know our country water is a little on the hard side so that would be the next best thing to try. We’d also started giving her a glucosamine/MSM pill which I see includes other minerals which may have contributed to her last crystal-forming. She sure felt like a puppy on that even with signs of an infection, but obviously we’re still learning! I’m thinking her recurrent infections are because of her psyche as well as nearly touching the ground when she pees, and she’s also part husky and loves to dig in the dirt, which flies right back through her hind legs.

[Susan]

If you read the test your dog can have rice duck lamb & don’t forget the Nutri-Scan Salvia test, test for JUST 20 foods only so there’s probably other foods like Tapioca etc that your dog can eat …. your dog can eat the “California Natural” Lamb & Rice that has just 4 ingredients Lamb, white rice, brown rice & sunflower oil.. or the best thing I would do is feed raw diet that way you are in control of all the ingredients…….
Your dog has just proven LM WRONG she always goes on on that your dog cant have food intolerances chances are your dog has environment allergies, see a Dermatologist for environment testing & waste $2000 then what, how do stop all the pollens in the air, all grass on ground, you cant the Nutri-Scan test has proven LM her wrong.. Dogs do have Food Intolerances..
Jean Dodds has the only & best IgA & IgM salvia testing around….

[Lilli]

Hi, I have a 12 year old Labrador who has a very sensitive stomach. Right now I feed him on commercial wet food and biscuit with some fresh vegetables. I have been wondering if he could take a raw food diet to enhance his latter years or would this be too much of a change at his age. He has never eaten raw meat and bones although he has had fresh raw vegetables.

[Pitlove]

Hi Tonia- Marie did actually point you in a good direction if you are interested in feeding raw/homemade. Hound Dog Mom who is the one who made the thread focusing on large/giant breed puppies does in fact feed a raw homemade diet and talks about it in that thread. It is however a very long thread but a good and helpful thread. Unfortunetly large breed puppies have certain diet requirements until 8mo’s of age that help prevent many diabilitating skeletal diseases, that can end up costing thousands of dollars in vet bills.

Hound Dog Mom has a list of foods that have the proper calcium levels for large/giant breed puppies, some are grain-free and others are grain-inclusive. I would start there and figure out what your budget IS and then compare a few that she has on her list and see if any are budget friendly enough. They are all 4 to 5 star in quality so if you are looking for something 3 stars or lower to save money A) that list won’t be too helpful and B) the food may not have the correct calcium levels a large breed puppy needs.

[Bobby dog]

pitlove:
Questions are never off topic! My grocery store sells kefir, you can find it in most health food stores, and most Wal-Marts carry Lifeway kefir products. I do still feed Bobby kefir a few times a month, but only because he loves it so much. I have a bunch of kefir cubes in the freezer.

jamie f:
Carbohydrates are necessary in order for kibble to maintain their form and texture. So regardless of grain inclusive or grain free you are feeding carbs. There’s benefits and drawbacks to any kibble. There’s food safety, GMO ingredients, nutritional values, your dog’s palate, and many other things to consider when deciding which type of kibble to feed. Grain free foods are a marketing goldmine IMO; I find some to be carb heavy and high in fat. I don’t like to limit food selections. I think eliminating foods that you have never fed your dog narrows down your food choices needlessly. I do believe there is a time and place to eliminate foods such as if your dog is displaying food sensitivities. IMO, by feeding a potato, lentil, etc. based grain free kibble day in and day out you are now subjecting your dog to fewer ingredients on a more consistent basis which may lead to food sensitivities of those ingredients. Not my idea of rotating foods.

My dog had many skin and digestive issues when I came to this site. It took a year of tweaking his diet and allot of elbow grease to heal him up. I believed GF was the best initially. As I researched further I found there was no reason to limit my dog’s diet to just grain free. So one day I took the leap and expanded my rotation to include grain inclusive and haven’t looked back since. If there ever comes a time I need to eliminate certain ingredients from his diet I will just tweak my pet food criterion again.

I feed my dog moderate to high protein, low fat, and moderate to low carb kibbles. Since kibble is far from perfect I always add canned, fresh foods, or commercial raw as toppers. I like to add fresh healthy omegas, Now Gamma Advanced vitamin E complex, and organic coconut oil to his food. I have fed about 20 different brands of kibble and many different recipes. I buy small bags and switch brands, protein, and carb sources with each new bag. One of these days I will settle into a more permanent rotation, I am still tweaking his diet.

Here’s an article from the WDJ about carbs and grains in kibble:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_10/features/Carbohydrate-Intake-For-Dogs_20103-1.html

Here’s a DFA post about carbs:
/canine-nutrition/dog-food-carbohydrates/

Here’s a perspective about grains from a Holistic Vet:
http://vetnutrition.blogspot.com/2009/05/are-grains-all-bad.html
http://vetnutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/grains-2-not-as-allergenic-as-you.html

Here’s an interesting perspective from the Great Dane Lady:
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_corn_myth.htm

As L M mentioned your dogs licking their paws and gunky ears could also be caused by environmental irritants. A single protein and carb food might be a good place to start to determine if it’s food or environmental. It is important to keep in mind each dog is an individual and what food or regimen works for one dog may or may not work for another. You will not know if that is your magic food until your dog does well on it. Just as you have foods that you don’t like or don’t agree with you, but others will rave about how they love it and can’t eat enough of it. So after this long drawn out post my best advice is to be aware of any chemicals you use in your home or outdoors that your dogs could be exposed to, take note of the time of year your dogs have problems (their issues may be seasonal), and to feed your dog the healthiest food he will eat consistently and does well on!

[Pitlove]

Linda- Rotties! i love them. we also have a Rottweiler along with our Pitbull a chocolate lab and an English springer spaniel. Sam, our Rottweiler (technically he is my boyfriends parents dog, so I dont get to control what he eats unfortunetly but i still think of him as my dog since I give him the most attention as hes the outside dog) is 2 probably almost 3 years old now. The bf’s parents have had all the dogs on Purina ONE lamb and rice since forever. The family dog has always been Rottweilers and unfortunely all but maybe one passed away at around 8 years old. Cancer, e-coli poisoning, you name it its happened to our Rottweilers. If it were up to me and I got to choose his food I would feed him the way I feed my Pitbull who is also prone to the problems that large breed dogs have as he is 66lbs at a year old. I do what is called a rotational diet with my dog. I certainly have him on Orijen’s Adult Dog and after that bag is through i’ve got EVO lined up next for him to try. I also feed him wet food. Now that your Rottie is far past the point where you have to worry about the calcium levels not being too high or too low to prevent rapid growth thus causing many different skeletal related disorders, you can kinda give him a nice variety of foods. If you are on a budget as someone who is retired and need to stick with kibbles, definitely go for the 5 star rated ones. I know a lot of people on here have issues with Taste of the Wild. I BELIEVE its manufacture by Diamond which has a long recall history and a terrible reputation. You want to make sure that the kibble is as species appropriate as you can get if you, like myself, can’t feed a raw diet, which would be the healthiest way for any dog to eat. Species appropriate for ANY dog of any breed being high in animal protein, at least 30% or more, moderate in fats, and low in carbs. Foods that I like and have and will use in my rotation for my pitbull are Orijen (all of them), Wellness CORE, Nature’s Variety, Merrick (GF only), EVO, Grandma Mae’s GF. I’m still working on my list but that is what I have so far.

As for raw, if it is something you are interested in, PLEASE make sure you do A LOT of research before feeding raw because it is possible to make your dog very unhealthy by not feeding a COMPLETE and BALANCED raw diet.

Also to help with the transitions to the food, you can add probiotics to their diet, like canned pumpkin and kefir. I also use a supplement thats premade in a power form made by a very great company called The Honest Kitchen. They use human grade ingredients and make their food in a human grade factory. Its called Perfect Form. Probiotics help build healthy flora(bacteria) in your dogs gut to make transitioning to a new food pain free for you and your dog. Just like with humans dogs should be able to eat a different food or protein every meal if not every couple months without digestive upset. Dogs whos stomachs are already sick and lacking those bacteria that make their gut strong due to being fed the same food day in and day out are the ones who get loose stool and vomitting when you switch their food. Instantly the owner blames the food and switches them back and never switches the food again under the claim that their dog has whats commonly called a “sensitive stomach”.

The joint supplements are a great idea. Glucosamine is a great supplement for joint and hip problems. Cancer, I feel, and I think others do too can have a lot to do with a poor diet. A lot of poor grade dogs foods do contain ingredients that are carcinogenic even for humans and without variety in their diet they are being fed those toxins for years and eventually is catches up with them. The rotational diet helps prevent that and the build up of allergies as well. If your Rottie is already allergic to a protein source like chicken, you are going to want to be very careful with the food you choose as many have chicken meal or chicken fat hidden in the list of ingredients. Its all about reading ingredients but more importantly HOW to read the ingredients and the GA, which is why this website is so helpful. But like many here including Dr. Mike will tell you, its a jumping off point. Once you find a good food, you want to look further into the company that makes it, the co-packers, the recall history etc and make sure that you’re not being fooled into thinking its a good food based on the ingredients. Also knowing where the company sources from is important, what with all the problems we have been having with China lately. Avoid China. Thailand on the other hand is ok.

I really hope that I’ve helped a little and that others will contribute or correct me if I’m wrong about any of my points. I love Rotties so I’m glad to be able to give you some direction with his health!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Pitlove.

[InkedMarie]

I personally think a grainfree food would be a good choice. You have a large breed dog that will probably get some arthritis in coming years; grains can be inflammatory. There are a couple good foods that are low grain: Nature’s Logic only has millet and Farmina low grain is obviously low in grains.

Some foods I like are Farmina, Annamaet, Dr Tim’s, Natures Logic….

I’ve read that people think a raw diet is best for cancer dogs; I do feed raw but not because of that.

[Catherine M]

Hi everyone!
I have an 8 year old long-haired mini-doxie named Sweet-Pea. She was recently diagnosed with fatty liver disease when tested at a visit for glaucoma. I am feeding raw meats (various kinds) mixed with rice and sweet potato. She had been off of the raw diet for several months, eating dry pedigree food since I had lost my husband and just taking care of things was overwhelming to me. But I went back to the raw after he diagnosis, and also am giving supplement of milk thistle for her liver. She has voracious hunger and thirst, and pees an ocean, sometimes not making it outside. I know this water drinking and peeing are related to the liver disease.

So what do you recommend to feed her? Red meat is not the best for her, although I feed other meats when I can, and doing the raw diet seems to be too much work for my 4 dogs, including her. I’m looking for something easy to digest, easy on the liver (low ammonia-producing), and easy on the budget and to feed.

Thanks for any suggestions you have!
Cathy

[Susan]

Enzymes also help with dry flaky skin I add enzyme 1/2 capsule with the raw diet
http://www.allthebestpetcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/digestive_enzymes.pdf

[Susan]

Hi Amanda, I have just started a raw diet with 1 protein Kangaroo & 3-4 veggie/fruit.. I blend 1 broccoli head 5 celery sticks 1 apple & 1 banana all blended in a blender then I freeze 2 spoons portions & take out the night before I add 1-2 spoons with 1 cup Kangaroo….I’m not feeding any organ meats yet… its a elimination diet
have you joined the F/B group “Dog Allergy International group” look in the files at “Raw elimination diet” candida-yeast itchy smelly dog” … I’ve just started a raw diet thru a Naturopath & posted in the files what I used & did , Patches red paws itchy skin & hive like lumps all went away within 2-3 days on the Raw diet, I couldn’t believe it, 1 year going from kibble to kibble then it took just 2 days & all his skin started to clear up, no more red paws, I always thought it was from the grass his red paws ….also there’s limited ingredient foods in the files with just 3-4 ingredients are in the files … someone was asking about the Dinovite yesterday… have you tried tin sardines in spring water drained, they are high in omegas & his coat will start to come good again also a good medicated shampoo.. I use Malaseb medicated shampoo…. https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogallergyinternationalgroup/

[idunnowhat2callmyself]

Thanks for the reply, Marie!

I suppose I would be looking for something like that–a ready-made ground product to simply weigh out in the appropriate amounts, so that I wouldn’t have to be wondering whether I’m doing it right. I like how straightforward it is to just dump a cup or half-cup of kibble into the bowls.
Or really, any high-quality diet that comes in sizes suitable for multiple varied dogs…raw just seemed to be posited as “the best possible option,” so I’ve been starting to look into it.

Hare Today is actually the same site my aunt uses.

Hmm. The Miami site’s product list offers this: “Build An Order”  -­‐New  to  RAW  FEEDING,  or  dont  want  the  hassle  of  choosing  items.  Let  us  do  the  work  for  you.  At  no  extra  charge,  you  give  us  your  
budget    and  Dogs  info  (  Weight,  Allergies,  Breed  )  and  we  build  your  order  for  you!  Please  Email  us  for  this  service  and  request  BUILD  AN  ORDER.”
…Which is pretty much exactly what I sought, because I have absolutely NO idea what I’d have to order or how much I’d need per month or so…but then, I don’t think they were the one that mentioned free shipping……and Reel Raw looks similarly interesting.

Thank you for the recommendations.

[idunnowhat2callmyself]

Okay, I’m just going to throw this out here because I’ve found this to be a remarkably useful website, and if there’s anyplace I might productively ask my question, it’d be here. I apologize in advance for the length of it.

My family’s got four dogs currently: One small, one medium, one medium-large, and one large. It’s a nice range. I try to order higher-quality kibble brands to offset the lower-quality ones sometimes brought home by other people. A month or two ago, I had a two-hour phone conversation with my aunt, who’s got one small dog on a raw diet (with wet canned stuff in the mornings.) I’d hoped to simply be able to follow her precise regimen, adjusted for our pack…and got a half-page worth of notes during that convo in Microsoft Word. I should’ve figured it wouldn’t be simple, and I suppose I could start ordering some whole rabbits or tripe or turkey necks and supplements or any of the other various things I jotted down from the site she mentioned…but the whole thing still seems so overly, excessively complicated and worrisome. She said that she hadn’t even told her vet about the switch, but had been at it for about a year now.

A few benefits stood out: Cleaner teeth naturally, because no matter how much toothpaste or how many correct-ingredient-inclusive wipes I use, nothing removes the ‘icky’ stuff (which is worst on the oldest dog.) My aunt also noted that cleaning up after them is much easier thanks to the raw–and since that job typically falls to me, I’d really appreciate that. AND potential weight loss/healthy-weight management, as well…I almost always opt for the low-fat variety of everything to be on the safe side. Fortunately the hefty Brittany did recently move down to a smaller dosage of heartworm med, and can suddenly fit behind the sofa again–so I guess it finally paid off.

I’ve given the pooches everything from the raw-coated kibbles to Stella & Chewy patties to Fresh Pet to Honest Kitchen “green slop” (we’ve had that huge box for over a year now), to dozens of kibble brands that all seem essentially identical–and so on and so forth. When I try to look up which kibble or commercial raw food to try (assuming that cans would disappear far too quickly to be worthwhile), I am instantly overwhelmed and confused–I see loads and loads of brand names and packaging and shapes, but all of the food and flavors appear to be the same. I have no idea how to even tell which to buy. The sizes and portions and pricing baffle me–how am I to tell what will feed multiple dogs of various sizes and breeds for more than a couple days? We usually get a new big kibble bag about twice a month. I simply cannot tell what the raw equivalent would be…and even for dry food, I’m now kinda stumped. Every time I’m asked to order another bag, I freeze. How to choose?!?! My list’s grown so long, and we’ve tried so many…now I usually go with whichever has the best price per pound at the time, and a decent rating/reviews. I wish I could just find the perfect brand to consistently turn to, and continuously rotate through their flavors and treats. (Deciding which treat to pick up becomes a whole other can of worms, and I’m just like, “Gods, why, why, why must this be so bamboozling?! Why the hundreds of redundant choices? The dogs don’t even care, they just want our stuff!”)

Only one of the four dogs eats neatly (my Saluki, who has a snood. 😉 The other three are slobs, knocking the bowls around and splashing before they even touch the floor. The little Beagle frequently flat-out refuses to eat from a bowl, insisting that the food be spilled onto the floor for him. Also, my mom’s a clean freak–and I’m a bit of one myself at times. For these reasons, I knew that any attempt to transition would be tough and drawn-out, if not impossible. I knew I’d have to discover the cleanest, neatest, easiest, least odiferous method.

Now, before I got older and started performing more research into these areas, my parents…well all right, let me just put it this way. The two Beagles we had at the time I was born ate cheap supermarket kibble and human leftovers, lived in the backyard, never once to my knowledge had their teeth brushed (the one had green teeth and rancid breath) or nails trimmed or even saw the vet…yet both lived happily & health-problem-free for 16-18+ years (we can’t be exactly certain because they were adopted from a shelter.) Thus it can be very difficult for me to convince these guys, no matter how many times I reiterate what the healthy-food brochures say, to go out of their way for “special frou-frou dog food” or anything they’re unused to.

WHEW. Ever so sorry to unload all that frustration here. Any advice, recommendations, or assistance that anybody ever feels like dropping would, of course, be most appreciated.

[SdianeM M]

I’m sorry for the confusion. I switched Sadie from Castor and Pollux kibbles to a raw diet. Allprovide is my first experience with a raw diet. When I first made the switch, I started her on the chicken.

I read how important it is to switch out the proteins, so the second one I added was the turkey. While on the turkey, I found that she started having a repeat of the yeast issues. I added the beef last weekend, but she had a rough night of itching.

Not sure what’s going on with her. Not sure if it’s the proteins, environmental issues, or something added to the food.

The past few days I’ve cooked chicken for her. I’m just not sure of what I’m doing.

[Dori]

I agree with Marie most definitely. Raw, fed properly be it pre made commercial raw diets or home made, is far superior and species appropriate than any kibble you are going to find.

My one question to you is what makes you think your dog is hungry? I believe she’s so excited to eat her meals because she’s loving her food. If she’s maintaining her proper weight than she’s not hungry. Most, if not all dogs, that eat raw get seriously excited at the mere prospect that their meal is being prepared for them. My three go nuts in the kitchen as soon as they see me go towards the area on the counter that has the kitchen scale that I use to weigh out their food. One will squeal and bark and cry the entire time, the other runs and spins in circles and the other sits and stares at my every move. They all crack me up. They never got excited over kibble or canned for that matter.

[Pitlove]

sorry to hear the diagnois. i agree with marie and also with your choice to try raw with her. a holistic vet could actually help you with making sure that your raw meals (if you aren’t doing something that’s premade like Dori suggested) are complete and balanced. remember, the best food you can feed is a complete and balanced raw diet and the worst food you can feed is an unbalanced raw diet.

i wish you the best of luck with your girl and her diagnois

[zcRiley]

Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw is kibble with small freeze dried balls mixed in. So not completely a raw diet.

If you click on the site’s home page, there’s a review list of raw foods you may like. Frozen, mixes, freeze dried, dehydrated, etc.

[James S]

Hello All. So, I was wondering if something like Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw is considered frozen raw, & what are some other options for a raw diet? Thanks.

[James S]

Ok-She does have small cell lymphoma, which, of either small cell or large cell, small cell IS the more treatable one. So we have Hope. As you can see in the avatar picture, she is an Amazing Dog ( Looks like she was running across the water, right?), & Hopefully, she’ll pull through for a lot longer.
Now, let’s get her on some Good Food! I’m going to research some raw diet options & I invite your Advice & Knowledge.
Thanks,
-James

[Susan]

Hi, join this Face Book group “Dog Allergy International Group” look in the files for “Foods for dogs with Food Allergies/Intolerances IBS IBD” there’s a heap of limited ingredients kibbles & wet foods with their links also Michele Dixson from Petcurean (Go Sensitivity LID Venison) can help with any questions also look at feeding a Raw diet in files under “Raw Elimination Diet Candida-Yeast Itchy Dogs” there’s a easy diet for puppies done by a Naturopath…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogallergyinternationalgroup/

[Susan]

Hi Kris, I just posted a post about Candida yeast & what foods to avoid… join this Face Book group “Dog Allergy International Group” & look in the files for “Raw Elimination Diet for Candida-Yeast & itchy dog” also look for “Foods for dogs with Food Allergies/Intolerances, IBS, IBD” there’s a heap of limited ingredient kibbles & wet foods, also Michele Dixson from Petcurean (Go Sensitivity LID Venison) can help with any questions..
also what are you bathing her in? I use Malaseb medicated shampoo, it kills any bacteria on the skin & does not dry out their skin leaving them so soft, weekly baths are needed & a complete diet change….
I just went thru this with my boy he was put on a Prednisone for 2 weeks then when he finished he started to smell like a stinky yeasty dog, so on Friday I started a raw diet with the help of a Naturopath cause Patch has IBD as well… his skin cleared up within 2-3 days no more red paws, no more scratching, no more smelly dog… its all in the “Raw Elimination diet Candida-Yeast”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogallergyinternationalgroup/

[MaggiesDad]

Give the guys at http://www.allprovide.com a call – they got in to developing and setting up a raw food business after a change to a raw diet solved their puppy’s problems – which included excessive scratching, feet chewing, and bowel issues. Bad advice from a number of different vets (who prescribed steroids for the rest of her life!) cost their puppy an ear before someone suggested a change in diet. She’s no longer on any steroids, doesn’t scratch and has a new lease of life. They ship for free too!

[Dori]

Hi James S. Well, first before contemplating anything relating to the cost of foods you’ll need to get the results of her tests. If it is not any type of cancer, and I sincerely pray it’s not, then I would advise you to make the leap and switch Nefertiti to commercial frozen raw diets. I think it is the healthiest and most appropriate species diets that are out in the market. I’ve been feeding them with my three for over 3 1/2 years. Yes, initially they may seem more expensive than kibble but in reality they are not. You feed less raw than kibble. They are more able to utilize raw than kibble. Vet visits have dwindled down to once a year for their physical. Hannah goes twice a year because she’s has hypothyroidism and blood has to be checked. That’s it. They always eat their meals, they love meal time and are always happy playful dogs. I feed high protein, moderate to high quality fats, and low carb diets. The easiest way to accomplish that, and the healthiest way, is with raw diets. I go the commercial frozen raw diet route rotating brands and proteins. Quite frankly, I’m too lazy to put raw diets together myself nor do I wish to. It’s also not how I want to spend my time. I sign up to all the raw food companies that I use to their email newsletter program and they email me coupons which helps a little with the cost. Oh, also with commercial raw diets in rotation the only dog that I need to add supplements to, and it’s not a need just a guess on my part, is Hannah who will be 16 in September. Things slow down and don’t quite work as appropriately as they did when they, and we, were young. Let us know the results of tests please. Praying for Nefertiti and the rest of your family.

[Dori]

Hi jakes mom. I give all three of my girls 1/4 tsp. once a day of organic virgin coconut oil (I like the brand CocoTherapy best). I’ve seen big differences in their skin and coat with the coconut oil.

Once a week or so I split a can of sardines packed in water with no salt between the three of them. Hoping to help balance out or at least give them a little extra omega 3’s.

Hannah who will be 16 in September gets Standard Process Canine Whole Body Support, Standard Process Enteric Support, SP Canine Hepatic Support, and SP Flex Support once a day. I can’t really say that I see all the benefits from these supplements but I know at her age things may be starting to break down or at least not as efficient as they once were. The Enteric and Hepatic are for liver and kidney support.

Vitamin E soy free (Mercola). I give Hannah 200 i.u. every morning in her breakfast. Katie and Lola get 100 i.u. Monday, Wednesday and Thursdays. I pinch the capsules and squirt on their food. The vitamin E was suggested to me by one of her specialists. Figured it couldn’t hurt the other two girls to get a little three times a week now that they are 5 1/2 years old.

Hannah is also on Denamarin once a day approx. 1 – 1 1/2 hours before her dinner meal. Also for liver support. (Denamarin is a chewable and it’s a combination of SamE and Milk Thistle also prescribed by two of her vets. (In case you don’t remember Hannah has a tumor in her bladder and a mass on the lobe of one of her lungs…both inoperable not that we would have put her through it at her age anyway). Her liver levels as of last months blood work are back to normal. High end of normal but at least not sky high as they were last year.

I believe that these supplements, and most especially, her commercial raw frozen diet in rotation with brands and proteins is what has kept her symptomatic to these cancers even though she was diagnosed and confirmed by two other specialists a little over a year ago.

I also diffuse a few different essential oils in the house that are suppose to be good for tumors and cancers. Are they really working???? Don’t know. But they certainly can’t hurt her. Neither of the tumors have grown since they were diagnosed. She likes to lay near the diffusers so at least she likes the scents.

Sorry for editing so many times but I just remembered that you asked how old our dogs are. Hannah is 7.3 lbs., Katie is 6 lbs. and Lola is 5 lbs.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Dori.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Dori.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Dori.

[susan h]

My 15-year old dog (small mixed breed – about 13 pounds – she’s lost weight) has developed a significant case of yeast-based dermatitis. She’s always had sensitive skin, but this reaches new heights. My new vet had her on prednisone and Baytril, which seemed to provide her some relief, and I’m using a special shampoo (though not regularly 2x/week – must correct that behavior on my part). She has large hairless patches, scabs around her face, and a good case of itching (though that has improved). I was reading this morning that carbohydrates in the diet can exacerbate this condition. I typically feed a selection of foods: her current favorite is Whole-Earth duck stew. Also provide a bit of kibble. She regularly gets probiotics, too. I am going to check the labels (and the Dog Food Advisor reviews) to ascertain the composition of her regular foods. Any responses regarding experience with withdrawing — or at least minimizing — carbs in her diet would be appreciated.

[Pitlove]

All dogs no matter what breed in order to maintain proper weight and dietary needs as long as they are healthy with no known medical conditions usually do best on a food that is high in protein, moderate in fat, and low in carbs.

I’m sure if you gave us more info as to your situation (e.g income, how much access you have to pet stores, do they have a wide selection, do you prefer to order online) we could help you out a lot better.

Yes, typically canines do better with a grain free food, however, like most people on this site who are regulars will tell you, just because it’s grain free does not mean it’s species appropriate for a dog. A lot of companies that have gotten on the “grain free” bandwagon have replaced the corn, soy, wheat and rice in their foods, with high carbs like potatoes into order to bind the food together. So you need to pay close attention that the protein is not less than the carbs and the fat % is not too high either. Also, you need to pay attention to where the protein source is coming from. For example, a food that has 30% protein but you don’t see a whole meat or meat meal listed as the first second and third ingredients. That means they are using plant based proteins, which are not species appropriate protein sources as dogs are carnivores.

A few brands that meet these needs that are not avaliable at a commercial pet store like Petco would be Orijen, Acana, Wysong. Some brands that commercial stores do carry are Merrick, Nature’s Variety and Wellness CORE.

These are just ones I can think off the top of my head and that are apart of my dogs rotation. Most of us also use a canned wet food for the added moisture content and many people on here do raw homemade meals too. However if you think about going that route please do your research on how to create a balanced raw diet for a dog before just slapping together some chicken and veggies and calling that a meal.

edit: here’s the direct link to the google.doc aquariangt was talking about
https://docs.google.com/a/selu.edu/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit
these are foods that have the proper calcium levels for large breed puppies

• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Pitlove.

[Pitlove]

bdog- i appreciate what you said a lot. and i really hope you didnt take my inquiry into the health of your cats as an implication that you are feeding them wrong. that was not my intention!

i agree with you 100% about by-products, they are in a raw diet which i would feel comfortable feeding my kitty and puppy if i had the time and better resources. like you i hate the anonymous meats as well. i was thinking about only using those products if it is an extra hard month money wise and i can’t afford an expensive food for her. they sell grandma mae’s near my work for .95$ a can and 4health GF is .69$ at the Tractor Supply near my house so those are also cheap options for me.

I also live in a state that is very humid in the summers and I haven’t had problems with fleas on my AmStaff yet. My kitties have always been indoor only. I used to live in a city and in an apartment so i didnt ever have an option to let them outside so i just grew up having indoor cats. my kitten right now is indoor as well, though i take her on her harnass in the yard and let her walk around sometimes. despite living in a feral colony for the first few months of her live on a college campus she does not seem to enjoy being outside lol. i’ve taken her on walks with us when we walk our AmStaff and she just cried the whole time and clung to me. poor girl.

[Bobby dog]

pitlove:
You have to do what you feel comfortable with, they are your pets and in your care.

As I wrote in a previous post, “My cats have passed all wellness visits (blood work included) over the last several years and the couple that were chubby have lost the extra weight. Paying attention to the recipes regardless of the quality of the brand has made a significant difference in their health.” I can’t say that was the case before I started providing a better diet.

I have a cat that has been diagnosed with a hyper thyroid about five years ago. I believe the terrible food I fed him helped contribute to his condition. In order to renew his Rx each year blood work is required. Over the last year he gained a pound which he needed and his coat has filled in beautifully. He had bald spots due to dry skin and he used to be almost bald due to scratching his face so much, it was terrible. He still has some dry spots on his back, but nothing like he had two or even one year ago.

I contact companies all the time. I only do so in writing; my professional experience has taught me to get things in writing. I don’t know what the legalities are for any company for any product in regards to honesty when responding to consumer questions. I have found from professional and personal experience that most people are not willing to put things in writing that can come back and haunt them.

I have no issue with by-products, homemade raw diets contain them. I would rather have named meat sources too; as I wrote, they all contain ingredients I don’t like. But, it is what it is for me and my kitties.

Edit: Last year was the first year I did not have to use any sort of flea or tick protection for them. I live in an area that is humid in the summer. They are outdoor cats and are brushed daily to check for parasites. I hope to do the same this year, no topicals. Hopefully, their immune system is as healthy as it was last summer.

[Bobby dog]

Pitlove:
Here’s my list of grocery store foods. There are other recipes in some lines that fall into my criteria; this list only includes food my cats will eat. All have ingredients I don’t like. None contain soy, wheat, or corn, some contain fish, but are not fish based recipes, and if starches are included most are either rice or potato. Most carbs are 12% and under DMB some are a little over; %’s are in parenthesis using info from the company’s site.

Fancy Feast – Turkey and Giblets Feast Classic GF, no fish (7), Tender Liver & Chicken Feast Classic GF, no fish (7), Tender Beef & Liver Feast GF, no fish (7)

Pro Plan line:
True Nature – Chic & Liver Entree Classic GF, no fish (2)
Savor – Beef & Carrots Entrée Classic GF (10), Chic & Spinach Entrée Classic GF (10), Turkey & Veg Entrée Classic GF (10)
Focus – Chic & Beef Entrée Classic GF (5), Kitten Chic & Liver Entrée Classic (2)

Friskies – Poultry Platter (11), Special Diet Classic Pate’ Turkey & Giblets Dinner no fish (9), Special Diet Classic Pate’ Beef & Chic no fish (8), Classic Pate’ Turkey & Giblets (14)

Beyond – Chic & Sweet Potato Pate’ GF (11) and Chicken & Brown Rice pate’ (10)

Sheba – Turkey Pate’ (7), Chic & Liver (7), all Sheba recipes are grain free and fish is only in the recipes with seafood in the title.

Iams – chicken (13), chicken & liver (13), beef (14) pates’

Purina One – Classic Turkey GF, no fish (7), Classic Chic GF (7), Classic Beef GF (7)

My seniors have not taken to a rotational diet, they are 17 and like what they like. I am always on the lookout for new foods to try. My current rotation includes a few Wellness CH recipes, Innova cat & kitten, CSCLS, Cali Nat’l, BB kitten pate’, Grandma Mae’s, Nutrisource, Triumph turkey, Weruva Marbella Paella or CITK Fowl Bowl & Chic Frisk a’ Zee, Tiki Cat sardine or shredded chicken recipes, and my senior female likes Pure Balance GF Chic & Turkey. A few times a month the seniors will also eat NV raw chic or beef medallions, Primal FD Turkey, and Stella & Chewy FD Chicken Dinner, but they all still demand their kitty crack.

I contacted Purina and asked what types of meat they source and if they use any 4D or 3D meats in any products. Here’s their reply:

“Thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company.

We appreciate the opportunity to address your inquiry. Our Company is extremely committed to food safety and quality control. Keep in mind that our products are formulated by professional pet nutritionists and veterinarians and are produced under strict quality standards. To learn how we ensure this quality, please visit: https://help.purina.com/answers/how-does-purina-ensure-the-quality-of-its-products.

Purina only uses high quality meats. Nestlé Purina PetCare Company purchases its meat from suppliers who process meat for human consumption under the supervision of a U.S.D.A. inspector. All meat used in our pet foods comes from facilities certified by the U.S.D.A. where the animals are inspected by a U.S.D.A. inspector. These suppliers are carefully selected by Nestlé Purina PetCare Company, which provides detailed ingredient specifications to those suppliers to help ensure the integrity of the meat it purchases. We do not utilize dead, downed, disabled & diseased meats in our products.

We hope that this information is helpful and that you will contact us again should you have additional questions.

Again, thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company.”

Regardless of their reply I would never risk their health by only offering foods they won’t eat, however this reply was a bit of a relief for me.

weezerweeks:
I checked my cat food list. The only brands that I have fed that come in larger cans are Friskies, 4Health (Tractor Supply Co. & Del’s Feed house brand), Wellness, EVO, and Innova. FYI, Fromm’s canned dog foods contain taurine. I have not fed it to my cats, but I used to feed NV canned dog foods to my cats before they reformulated it and took taurine out. At least I think it was NV, it was before I kept a cat food list. 😉

[InkedMarie]

I have no experience in anal gland issues but have you tried a wet diet (canned, dehydrated or raw)? Just curious if that would help.

[Susan]

Hi here’s just a few Limited Ingredients foods in the “Dog Allergy International groups” files that may work for dogs with food sensitivities… also when on a limited ingredient diet no other foods are given, nothing, no treats, no peanut butter to give meds nothing just their limited ingredient diet for 3 months, then if dog is doing real well then add a new ingredient & see if there is any reaction with new food..
Petcurean GO Sensitivity limited ingredients Venison.. Michele Dixson from Petcurean is in group & helps dogs with allergies..
Farmina Vet Life Hypoallergenic Fish & Potato
Performatrin Ultra Limited ingredients
Lily’s Kitchen Recovery recipe wet food limited ingredients
Canidae Grain Free Dry & Wet
Rayne Maintenace Diets
Addiction Nutri-RX Allergy HS
Natural Balance limited ingredient Dry& Wet
Zignature limited ingredient formulas
Merrick limited ingredient Dry & Wet
California Natural Hypoallergenic limited ingredients dry & wet
Darwins Raw
Ziwi Peak

[Bobby dog]

Labs:
4 Health is a decent food for cats, however mine don’t care for the brand. My one senior female will eat the GF Whitefish and Chicken dinner occasionally, but I really don’t like feeding a fish based food wet or dry too often. If I do, I prefer smaller species because they are likely to contain less contaminates. Wellness and Tiki cat have recipes that use either sardines or menhaden that I prefer.

pitlove:
This is a long thread and you would have to have the time to read through our trials and tribulations of transitioning our cats to a more species appropriate diet. The regular posters on this thread have written about spending several years trying to transition to other foods. We mostly have dry food addicts; not a healthy form of food for kitties. My cats grew up eating grocery store foods and like what they like. They are 7, 10, 12, and two are 17 years old. It is very dangerous, even life threatening, for cats to go on hunger strikes. I for one am not willing to risk my cats life if it comes down to a hunger strike. So rather than dwelling on the negatives of Purina I keep my cats eating consistently for good health and keep searching for other foods to try. As far as Purina products go I have a list of a few recipes from different lines I feed that IMO have the least offensive ingredients for my cats. Some have little or no fish, none have glutens, most have no added colors, some no grains, all are under 11% carbs for UT health, and probably other things I have forgotten about. Since wet foods make up a majority of their diet any food I feed must be 12% DMB carbs or under for their UT health.

A quote from Dr. Pierson, DVM of catinfo.org:
“…I would much rather see a cat eat any canned food versus any dry food – regardless of quality level of the canned or dry food. This includes Friskies, 9-Lives, Fancy Feast, etc., canned options.”

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition

My cats have transitioned to about 3/4 of their diets being canned foods. Wet foods are the healthiest for cats. My cats have passed all wellness visits (blood work included) over the last several years and the couple that were chubby have lost the extra weight. Paying attention to the recipes regardless of the quality of the brand has made a significant difference in their health.

I feed them a variety of commercial raw, canned, and dry foods. I only have one cat that is not finicky so my dog gets any leftovers from a new food that does not go over well with them. If you would like my list of what I call my cats’ “grocery store foods” just post and I will be happy to share. I also have a list of premium foods wet/dry/commercial raw if you are interested. And, welcome to the Cat Rec thread. The cat lovers on DFA post here about any cat topic!

Here’s my favorite cat sites:

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition

Home

http://www.naturalcatcareblog.com/
http://www.felinecrf.org/
The last site is for a specific feline health issue; I have found the site helpful in regards to foods to try.

[Pitlove]

Kind of sad that Joe B couldn’t actually stick around and have a back and forth conversation like an adult about this topic. He came here simply looking for someone to agree with him which I find really sad and unnerving especially for the health of his dogs.

Obviously the vast majority of us here do understand the new research that developed that dogs are in FACT scavenging carnivores, not omnivores. Doesn’t mean we can’t be civil and have a conversation.

I was raised from the time of birth as a vegetarian because my mom was. I was never given a choice as to whether or not I wanted to eat meat and it never bothered me until I got older and wanted to have some control of my life. I could never imagine forcing a diet on my cat (especially my cat) or my dog just because it was my diet.

I was thinking about it the other day because I work at a pet store that sells live mice as feeders and everyone always thinks its so gross. But I sat and thought about it and was like wow you know what ya sure I love all animals and I feel some sympathy for the mice but it’s amazing that the only creatures on this earth that we allow to eat the diet they are meant to eat are reptiles, fish (when they are given feeder fish), some birds (i think). Yet when it comes to a dog eating his ancestral diet (raw MEAT) we freak out. People have told me that other pet stores have tried to make them feel guilty for feeding live mice to their snake or would not sell them live mice. I told them I think it’s fantastic.

Truly I do wish people could see the importance of this concept for dogs and cats too.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 7 months ago by Pitlove.

[Susan]

Hi, you just need to find that right diet, join this Face Book group https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogallergyinternationalgroup/ look in the files there’s so many limited ingredient foods also Salvia & Hair Testing kits “Glacier Peak Holistic” test for 100+ Environment allergies & 200+ food for $85….
I would not remove anal glands, once you work out what foods she is intolerant too & avoid, the bum surfing & ear infections will stop, I was feeding pumkin, I have just stopped, I found the pumkin was making Patch itch & bum surf, I’m feeding Quinoa at the moment + tin salmon spring water + a gluten dairy, sugar free fish kibble …… look in the files there is so much information & a lot of experienced people who have dealt with food sensitivities/intolerances, environment allergies.. Patch is seeing a Naturopath Jacqueline Rudan Tuesday & is going on a raw diet + Enzymes + natural meds to help with the gut & nausea, his vet also put Patch back on the Metronidazole/Amoxicillin again for 3 weeks, so I’ve had enough at least the bum scooting has stopped when I stopped the pumkin but the nausea & eating grass hasn’t stopped… also look at DigestaVite Plus 100g Patch will be starting a small dose when it comes. http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/skin-allergies.html

[Richard S]

I’ve been feeding my giant schnauzer 3 pounds of raw (hamburger, heart, liver, chicken, green tripe) per day. Now she won’t touch it. Can someone please recommend a raw-food product from whom I can purchase a pre-packed, complete, raw diet that I can thaw for each mea? Thanks.

[InkedMarie]

Grandma Lucy’s has a goat food. You can feed a raw diet. I feed a ground raw, one of the companies has novel proteins that I doubt your dog is allergic to: goat, llama, quail, rabbit and more from Hare Today. I’m kind of surprised a naturopath vet is ok with a vegan diet.

[pugmomsandy]

What do you feed them regularly? Kibble? Homemade? If you’re currently feeding them a balanced diet, then you can give raw meaty bones (RMB) or other unbalanced food for no more than 20% of their diet and not have to worry about balancing the diet out. If you feed twice a day then you can give 2.8 meals as unbalanced such as the chicken legs and thighs. Of course that depends on the size of your dog whether or not a drumstick or thigh is enough for one meal. I do feed raw bones thawed though.

[Donna G]

Hello Mike,
I see that Earthborn is one of the 5 star foods on your site but I don’t see it listed as one of the Editors Picks.
Can you give me the reasoning behind that decision?
And yes I do feed that for my choice of kibble with a raw diet as well.

[Paula D]

Yes, I used it when my Bruno developed late-in-life kidney disease and the vet recommended a more medium protein and –more important— low phosphorus diet instead of the raw I had been feeding. Easy to understand recipe, using the food processor it didn’t take long to chop up everything, and both my hounds liked the cooked food. My two “negatives” we’re that the recipe made a lot of food and so you needed freezer space and it was expensive. Their treats are also excellent!

Good luck.

[InkedMarie]

Sherrie,
I had a dog with struvite crystals, not stones. I didn’t put him on a special diet. I would not use the food your vet recommended, I’d find a holistic vet to work on a diet with. If you don’t have one close enough to you (do a google search, the website will come up), there are many who will do phone consultations.
I do know that moisture is very important for your dog. Raw, pre made raw, canned are much better than dry.

good luck!

[tt w]

I’m getting a St. Bernard puppy soon ,and have been researching possible diets. Of course I’m aware raw-feeding is the best option, but for an adult st. bernard, it would cost close to 300 dollars a month! Are there any good alternatives either kibble or wet food that are mostly protein, grain-free, and suitable for large breeds? I’m also in Canada, so anything available here would be great!

[Dori]

Thank you losul. I’m hoping to get something of an education out of the experience. I’ve never done anything like this before seems silly for me to say and admit to since I feed commercial raw diets, but I’m hoping I don’t embarrass myself and break down into tears as I’m also pretty sensitive as to how the dead are handled in making food for others to eat. It’s a bit contrary on my part with my very opposing feelings on this issue. I just can’t save the world, just those in my cars.

Thank you for the compliment earlier. I do my best by my charges. That’s what we’re suppose to do so I do my best.

[losul]

Hello Aimee
I’m glad my pup raising days (and child raising days) are long past 🙂 or I’d have to study all over again to get enough confidence to homemake even then half of a pup’s food properly. I think it’s very important to start off a pup on good foundation to health early for the proper build of health throughout life. And then to think that someone could be using an exclusive food (most of us regulars here on DFA never would ) through gestation, nursing, puppiehood, and adult hood, one should be even more careful. if I did ever aquire another puppy, not at all likely, but I’d definitely want to see that at least some wholesome rawness was a part of the diet, but I’d also want to make certain it was properly formulated, and well rounded with wholesome ingredients, whether formulated by myself or someone else. Getting the macronutrients right at the VERY least, and not dependent to any large degree on any one formulation.

But I also think many raw maunufacturers face a dilemma, do they add a bunch of vitamins/minerals, many of them perhaps needlessly, and some perhaps harmfully,
in order to be able to put that AAFCO label on them? I think AAFCO guidelines were
designed for and are a must for heavily processed foods, the most so being kibble,
and even much more so when low grade, questionable, and inadequate ingredients are
used. I can’t imagine how nutritionally devoid most kibbles would be without rather
heavily added vitamins/minerals.

But, if you take vitamin E for example. It gets used up with time, processing, and
natural peroxidation/oxidation of fats, especially the sensitive, unstable fats.
What vitamin E added when a kibble is made, needs to be sufficient throughout the
manufacturing process, the time that the kibble is stored, and then throughout the
time someone is feeding the bag. Probably if measured at the time a kibble is fed,
it would be a very small fraction left of the original vitamin E included
originally, but hopefully it would still retain at least some smaller amount. I
think the AAFCO guidelines likely allow for these losses.
Whereas a raw, minimally, but properly processed diet, fed immediately, or that is
frozen in well sealed packages is going to retain most of the original vitamin E.
The food/fats is still going to undergo some peroxidation, albeit at a much, much
slower rate. I believe to much vitamin E can be very harmful, just like to much
much of many other added nutrients. Even AAFCO is concerned with overnutrition.
“Maximum levels of intake of some nutrients have been established for the first
time because of concern that overnutrition, rather than undernutrition, is a bigger
problem with many pet foods today.” I’m satisfied that Allprovide has more than
sufficient of vitamin E in that food for MY dog, with the added wheat germ oil.

Another example, I think you know of the importance of vitamin D in regulating
uptake of calcium and some other minerals. Probably you also know the detrimental
effects of to much vitamin D in supplemetation, including possible hypercalcemia.
And we have both seen how many raw foods, both homemade recipes and some
commercially prepared, appear to be “deficient” in vitamin D when going by AAFCO
guidelines.
I found this study interesting, “Some Observations on the Dietary Vitamin D
Requirement of Weanling Pups” and the conclusion; “Dogs fed diets with and without
supplemental cholecalciferol did not differ in growth rate, food consumption or
selected serum or urine values. Likewise,there were no differences between the two
of response to added cholecalcifrol was probably due to adequate levels of calcium
and phosphorus in the base diet and possible synthesis of vitamin D. However, it is
possible that some vitamin D could have been present in one or more of the
ingredients of the basal diet. It has been suggested that dogs may only require
additional vitamin D when there is a mineral deficiency or imbalance in the diet
(11). However, one study reported canine rickets in diets containing 1.2% calcium
and 1% phosphorus (6).It has been reported that carnivores may not possess the
mechanism of vitamin D synthesis in the skin (7). Another study demonstrated that
dogs fed a nonpurified diet without added vitamin D under conditions of total
darkness did not exhibit bone defects (Kealy,unpublished data). Previous reports
did not record the ultraviolet light status of the environment. It is not
understood at this time how the dog acquires sufficient vitamin D for metabolism.
Part of the explanation appears to be related to a very low vitamin D requirement
in the presence of adequate dietary mineral balance.The observation that large
breed dogs raised in indoor-outdoor kennel runs do not require added vitamin D is
important <b>because supplemental vitamin D, calcium and phosphorus are frequently
recommended and used at levels in excess of the nutritional require
ments of the dog, presumably to enhance bone growth and development. The data
reported here suggest that supplementation of nonpurified, commercially available
dog foods with vitamin D may not be necessary.</b>

http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediet-Kealy1991.pdf

Aimee, I know you’ve expounded about the blatant abuse of some other raw manufacturers in applying the AAFCO label of completeness on their foods, and I largely agree with many of your points, especially when it comes to all life stages/puppy, and especially the macronutrients Ca,P. etc.

I never expected you to approve of this one either. But for us, the puppy blend, good quality balanced proteins and well balanced fats, The meat, bone and beef organs in the proper proportions, and it’s other rounded whole food additions, and it’s 95% of the way there for us. I have a few more questions to ask, but as it stands for now, when my food supply runs down some, I intend to buy some Allprovide puppy blend and use at least as a sometimes meal/topper for my adult. It can replace some of the to expensive canned foods we’ve been using for the second meal of the day. I see it as a step up and less money too. The first meal will still always be raw homemade, or another solid commercial brand raw. If I did see a long list of added synthetic vitamins/minerals, for me, I’d likely just pass on this food. I’d still really appreciate someone (Dori?) to take a visit to them and report back.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by losul.