[Tyrionthebiscuit]

Is Natural Balance sweet potato and venison still being made? I know there have been venison sourcing issues this year in some areas. Many people I know have done well on it.
Susan, does wet food ever help dogs with pancreatitis or IBD? The reason I ask is because her dog is smaller and it probably wouldn’t be too much of a headache to have it on an all wet diet. My big guy, Zeek, Shepherd mix, can eat kibble just fine (but serious gas on sweet potato foods I’ve done.) tyrion, the bitty dog, gets very constipated on kibble so I do all canned, raw, or freeze dried. I’ve tried all kibble varieties with him from Orijen to Natural Balance, TOTW, Canidae, Fromm, earthborn, etc.

Would canned help the opposite issue?

[Colleen R]

Hi!
New poster here looking for some opinions/ My 11 yr old dog (55 lbs) pit/pointer mix was recently diagnosed with PLN.

The vet said she will need to be on a prescription diet the rest of her life and medication. The food is expensive. I put her on Hills K/d and she hates the dry so I bought her the wet food which she eats just fine, but reading some articles about prescription diets I’m wondering if this is a scam. I would be spending $1600/year on her food if I keep giving her canned. Does anyone have experience with this disease? I’m open to feeding her a raw diet too. I just find it outrageous to spend that much on her prescription food and wondering if it’s all a scam and I could get the same results from a raw diet….I do need to talk to my vet about this and I may even get a second opinion. Any feedback is much appreciated!

[aimee]

Hi K9Ancestraldiet,

I typically don’t feed raw but have used some freeze dried raw and have purchased raw diet to lightly cook before feeding.

But in answer to your question no I wouldn’t use your food. I start by evaluating the company and like to see one that meets WSAVA criteria and from your website I don’t see that. Maybe you do but it isn’t evident from the site.

The site makes statements without any references to back the statements up which is a real turn off for me. For example this: “Raw dog food is 99% digestible, resulting in smaller stools and increased activity for all organs. (The more they work with less rate of passage, the more blood flow to the organs and longer organ life) and this “Did you know that students at Kansas State University ground up a old boot and sent it in for analysis and it was selected as a commercial dog food for the market by AAFCO?”. I think this is referring to a promotional piece from Hill’s Science diet but somehow way skewed from what that marketing piece was about.

There isn’t any caloric information on the site, the feeding recommendations are vague and don’t look to be accurate as caloric requirements are not linear.

All in all from the material presented my first impression is that the company understands very little about nutrition, and doesn’t fact check. These are not the qualities I want to see in a company I’m trusting to meet my dog nutrient needs.

[K9AncestralDiet]

Hello all,

I help manage social media for a local raw dog food company in Colorado. I understand this forum isn’t for spam, but I did want to reach out to this community and have you take a look at our foods – We offer three raw recipes in beef, bison and lamb varieties, and I would love to know what you think about them! Is this food something you would consider for your dog? If not, why?

https://k9ancestraldiet.com/ Thanks and let me know what you guys think!

[GSDsForever]

Laurie is absolutely correct:

Skin issues are one of the most common health issues for German Shepherds, so much so that vet books reference things like “German Shepherd Pyoderma” for example. Very, very commonplace. These bacterial and other infections typically have an underlying health disorder that is primary.

GSDs are *frequently* are mentioned in veterinary literature among the dogs most commonly suffering allergies. Allergies or autoimmune system dysfunction are known to underlie skin troubles in GSDs.

Laurie, I too believe that a fresh home prepared diet is ideal.

But in a food allergy dog, it’s all about removing the allergen in the diet — whether commercial kibble/wet, raw, or homecooked.

I’m so grateful to have my dog no longer suffering from allergies! She is doing beautifully, is so much more comfortable and happy, and looks gorgeous now. But we had to change diet (food allergies), address inhalant and environmental allergies in care, and she receives Cytopoint injections — multipronged approach.

[Laurie J]

Patti L., please don’t make generalized statements like “GSD are not allergic dogs, please start making your own food for him……..”. I’ve raw fed my 18 month old GSD for over a year, with a huge variety of excellent human grade ingredients, and it’s extremely balanced, plus with added fish oil, digestive enzymes and probiotics. I’ve done every recommended thing from reputable forums for scratching/chewing/hot spot dogs. Guess what? He’s allergic to something! And it’s a very long, frustrating and expensive process to go through to find out exactly what the culprit is. In fact, the state university veterinary dermatology clinic we go to sees a whole lot of GSDs with skin/allergy issues. I truly believe that a balanced raw or home cooked diet is best for our dogs, but it certainly isn’t the cure all for GSDs or other breeds/dogs with skin and allergy issues.

[GSDsForever]

Wow, lot of sharply divergent information, strong opinions, values, and emotions in this thread!

I really feel for you Deborah. I can tell 100% that you love your dog very much, have been through and still are going through a lot, want and try to to the right thing — and wish to be respectful of your vet and others here & elsewhere.

If I met you in person, I’d really love to sit down and just talk it through supportively.

There’s so much in this thread to comment on. I’m going to presume, benefit of the doubt, that even where we disagree, that all here intend to be respectful and are motivated by sincere belief that they are giving you the best advice for your dog to be well. I wish to do the same.

1)I don’t like/believe in/recommend Dynovite. I just don’t think it’s this amazing product or expenditure to accomplish what you/others want. I think it’s a gimmicky & an overhyped, overpriced product that is very trendy, convenient, readily available, & well-marketed to take advantage of people and their pets.

I would eliminate it and start from scratch with a quality food. Supplement as needed.

2)Royal Canin Ultamino — aka the hydrolyzed bird feathers food

I 100% hear you & support you, agree with not wanting to feed this food. That SHOULD be okay. Honestly. Why? Because there absolutely are alternatives to it and the science/feeding strategy behind it is NOT unique on the market.

Here’s the thing: a diet of hydrolyzed protein + very limited other ingredients, starch (no protein allergen), pure fats IS hypoallergenic, meaning LESS likely to trigger allergic food responses and/or food intolerance reactions. So that *type* of diet recommendation from a vet is a valid one.

That said, THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL OR NECESSARY OR BENEFICIAL about feeding specifically bird feathers or “poultry byproducts aggregate” as the protein source. It’s the hydrolyzed aspect of the protein ingredient that is key to hypoallergenic status. If your vet did not explain it well to you, food allergens are proteins, and a hydrolyzed ingredient has the protein (the allergen) broken down into much smaller components that are less likely to trigger the body’s recognition of the ingredient and allergic response.

Other hydrolyzed diets, besides this one, may be fed. Other equally good options for feeding allergic dogs include limited protein, limited ingredient diets that exclude what your dog is allergic to if that is known or strongly suspected.

Sometimes this is rather simple. In a dog that has eaten the same diet of chicken its whole life, for example, merely switching to a fish based food can work. When a variety of foods have been fed, with no relief/allergies continued, a novel protein limited ingredient diet is fed. “Novel” here simply means whatever YOUR dog has not had before, not anyone else’s. It is critical here that the diet you select has pristine quality control, takes rigorous steps in manufacturing or home preparation, to avoid cross-contaminating the diet with ingredients not listed on the label. Especially when it is not known what all your dog has been exposed to and may be allergic to, it may be best to to avoid the current known top allergens for dogs: chicken, beef, eggs, dairy, soy, wheat, corn — and now also fish, lamb (after these have become no longer “alternative” foods but commonplace to feed). For dogs that have been exposed to everything under the sun, a really unusual protein can be used (e.g. kangaroo, if elk/venison has been fed).

A word of caution regarding OTC kibbles, cans, dehydrated/etc. products: In an OTC product vs alternatives of vet prescription commercial diets or homemade, you need to do your homework — research the food and ask pointed questions of the manufacturer and consider the actual plant that makes the food. Most people don’t do this, aren’t aware of the problem (trust the label too much) and many OTC commercial foods, including so-called limited ingredient diets, fail such cross-contamination quality control and therefore fail to provide relief (because the allergen is still being fed but not listed on the label). For a severely and genuinely allergic dog, this can be a nightmare — as tiny amounts can trigger the allergic response.

I do find it odd — and perhaps I am missing something here — that your vet is proposing and insisting (as you say) upon this one food. That doesn’t make sense to me — not on any scientific, research & evidence, best practices basis — purely from what you’ve said here.

What if this food stopped being manufactured tomorrow? What if it were recalled and therefore could not be recommended (temporarily)? What if your dog hated it and refused to eat it?

Surely there are other foods you could purchase to accomplish the medical goals here. Surely you could also feed an appropriate homemade/home prepared diet. This leads me to my next part . . . .

3)Vet-Client Relationship and Recommendations

A good veterinarian-client relationship is one of mutual respect and two-way dialogue. That dialogue includes both sides considering and addressing what the other is saying. Both sides may raise valid points that are worthy of consideration, understanding, discussion.

This means mutually asking and answering questions as necessary and respectfully, patiently making decisions TOGETHER in the best interest of the dog. Basing decisions upon careful consideration of facts and evidence, where things are explained and understood, still involves two way discussion. Some respect for the *values* of the pet owner, should be accorded by one’s vet, not to mention any actual fact based knowledge that a pet owner may have.

As an example, I have expressed to my vet(s) that, aside from concerns about ingredient/formulation quality, I am not comfortable on ethical grounds (including documented animal cruelty discovered in feeding trials) in supporting a particular major dog food manufacturer. Both vets (over the years) I expressed this to were very respectful and open to alternatives selected together. One vet shared that she did not know about the issue and asked me further about it because it disturbed her too. (Vets are busy and, like all people, don’t hear about/read everything and miss things.)

Similarly, my vet and I *discussed*, *considered* Apoquel (which you said you use) and Atopica for severe, unrelenting allergies and I ultimately rejected both after researching them. He was fully respectful of that. He never was pushy about either or any other course of action proposed. Later, when Cytopoint was recommended, I did choose to use this (again based on my research and discussion with the vet/vet staff) and have had great results.

I appreciate that you like your vet otherwise, find her to be “nice.” But it sounds like more two-way discussion should be happening and alternatives considered.

Conversely, as with human doctors, I strongly believe it is important that people see a vet that they trust — and then proceed to trust in what they say. By this I mean not that clients simply blindly and without discussion automatically do every single thing that their vet suggests or recommends, but that they seriously consider and respectfully attend to their recommendations, ask questions, try to understand, and reach good decisions TOGETHER. It’s a better course of action to propose major changes to one’s vet first, consider what she has to say & discuss, then take action than the other way around.

If a client cannot trust her vet (or human doctor) or cannot have full, open discussion with them, then why would that client see that vet (or human doctor). And yet I know many people who do exactly this — and it is probably a frustrating experience for both sides.

I see this come up, with dog owners I talk to, with vaccination schedules, heartworm prevention, and diet (including especially raw or homemade diets). And yet all of those topics are important and ones I expect to be able to discuss openly with my vet in full — and I do. If I can do it, you can do it.

Without being there, since you like your vet, it sounds to me *possibly* that either more time needs to be spent with you on this topic or you might need to be more assertive, vocal yourself and ask questions — ask why just this food, what are alternatives, what about this or that food (why or why not), what about a trial on a different one, what about a homemade vet supervised diet (using a consult service w/veterinary nutritionist if necessary), and be just as persistent as she has been. Get the answers you need to make the best decision for your pet, based on multiple options and good information.

***IF*** you’re just going to your vet because she’s close by, out of habit/length of time seeing her with your pet and hesitant/uncomfortable leaving her for a new one, because she’s “nice” (even caring), but are NOT ultimately getting what you need from her medically — are not able to have a full & open discussion with her, have all your questions & concerns addressed, receive alternatives and options — then I would see a different vet.

4)If your dog has more food intolerances, GI reactions to overall formulations, like too rich, etc., a sensitive digestive system more so than actual allergies, then there are foods very good for that that I would explore. These differ somewhat from strict allergy diets. Was your dog diagnosed with allergies or just sensitive tummy/touchy digestive system or food intolerances? Was a specialist consulted by your vet?

Some foods appropriate to sensitive digestive systems are just bland and very moderate, conservative in overall nutrition profile/guaranteed analysis, and low residue (meaning highly digested and low poop).

I’ve known people to switch from diets marketed explicitly for this purpose, prescribed even, to Fromm’s (and Fromm is a great company, with an excellent longterm record of quality control) Whitefish formula and it’s been exceptionally well tolerated by their dogs. It’s bland, not rich, and has quality ingredients. That’s just one example. There are other choices. Wellness Simple and Nutrisource come to mind, also Go! Sensitivity and Shine.

5)Homemade diets

If this interests you, your vet should be helping you and supportive, as it can be done.

Your vet should be able to provide a free, published balanced diet appropriate to your dog’s needs/condition, minimally consult (sometimes this is free) with a specialist colleague, OR full blown consult (for a fee) or outright refer you to go see a specialist in nutrition who will design you a diet or multiple meals you can safely feed.

Similarly, regarding that itchy skin/allergies, your vet can consult and discuss a case — often for free — with a veterinary dermatologist (specialist) or outright refer you to see one. Has your vet done this? If not, why not? If you have reached the point that you are trying so many diets, things, experienced such a range of symptoms over time, dog taking Apoquel, your vet insisting upon RC Ultamino now, consulting/referral would conform to best practices.

If money is really tight and you don’t have dog insurance (or coverage), there are both free board certified veterinary nutritionist/other credentialed authored single diets available on the web as well as one entire book of therapeutic veterinary diets (from UC Davis) now freely available on the web.

Personally, if you want to go the route of an actual veterinary nutritionist helping your dog, I would recommend (for many reasons) a long distance consult with board certified veterinary nutritionist Susan Wynn (unless you are in Atlanta, in which case you can see her in person). It’s about $300. She will consult with generalist vets long distance, which not all veterinary nutritionists will do.

• This reply was modified 8 years ago by GSDsForever.

[haleycookie]

I think perhaps you are a bit lost. Have you tried contacting a real veternarian nutritionist? They tend to have a better opinion on foods that are healthier and will help stabilize your dog. Even if it’s a balanced raw diet that you are seeking. I don’t believe in all the low quality prescription diets either and I CERTAINLY do not believe that when a dog is sick nutrition isn’t optimal. Of course it is. How would a sick dog on a garbage diet ever get better? If he is starting to do ok on the ultimo try and keep him on it for just a second. Contact a vet nutritionalist and see what they recommend as far as a prescribed balanced raw diet for him. It’s gonna be a long road figuring out what he’s sensitive to and maybe raw just isn’t for him but maybe you can at least switch him back to blue with is better than science diet and the Royal Canin in my opinion.

[Dharlee]

I’ve tried several things, but mostly whatever the vet recommended along the way. Most were in the Science Diet line and they sold them. I went with Blue Buffalo just because I thought it might be better. I have been trying to research this for a couple months and that was when I decided to try the Dynovite and raw diet. Except I did cook it because my vet begged me to. It’s so confusing. My head is spinning from all I read.

As to the probiotic, I took him off that as soon as I realized he was having issues. I also took him off the Dynovite/beef recipe today (Saturday) and he finally was able to eat tonight, just a tiny bit. He threw up and had diarrhea all day until just about midnight.

Poor little guy. I hate he feels so bad. And I really hate not giving him a better food. I just cannot go with the Ultamino. I can’t understand anyone using feathers in food!

[Dexter P]

So for 7 months now we have fed our two dogs a raw food diet of about anything you can think of, raw chicken wings, hamburger, fruit, eggs, pork, turkey…….you name it they have eaten it. We also supplement a small amount of kibble with this. These two dogs have the most iron clad guts you could imagine, one is 14 and the other 1 year of age. We came across this Mossy Oak supposed Super Food and thought we would try it. Day one is the only day they ate all of it, and both had bloody loose stools in 1 1/2 days. By Day 2 there was diarrhea everywhere……and they would not touch their food at all. They literally would identify the Mossy Oak food, and walk away from it and their other food. I understand the transition thing, but these two get kibble switched up all the time since its so little they get, and there have never been problems…..heck we didn’t have a problem when they devoured raw catfish we had caught fishing. There is something not right about this food it seems……..especially when you hop on here like I did, just Googling it, and you have all these horror stories. I’m just saying………be advised.

[organic n]

Hi all, I’ve been researching a lot about what to do with my dog with kidney problems. He had acute kidney failure 2 years ago, and has since been doing well but often has episodes where he is not hungry and throws up. Usually clears itself up within the day, however. He also gets pancreatic problems when exposed to things high in fat (learned that the hard way).

I don’t have his bloodwork levels with me (I was actually going to see if i could get a copy from his vet in the next few days for my own records) but I do remember his BUN being higher than normal but the vet never said anything about it in terms of lowering it, but I feel like my vet doesn’t really see it as a problem despite him having high values.

Anyway, he is a few months shy of being 16 years old, and he is a 6-7lbs dog. We stopped feeding him dry kibble for many many reasons (around a year ago), and now we make his food at home. I don’t do raw meat (I don’t feel like trying out the raw meat thing at his age and conditions is worth it), his meals consist of:

Lean ground turkey cooked with white rice, carrots, peas, and green beans. I use a vitamin supplement (Only Natural Pet® Senior Ultimate Daily Vitamin Powder). After reading however, I will make some changes to his food by swapping out the peas (heard they are high in phosphorous) for some other veggies. And maybe switching out the turkey for ground beef 10% fat. He does get treats too – and if he is willing fruit as well particularly apples.

Also, I would like to start my dog on some more supplements – particularly green food supplements (have heard kelp is high in sodium though and the ones i’ve looked at contain many types of kelp..hmm), switching out the vitamin powder to VetriScience Renal Essentials Kidney Health Support Dog, adding salmon oil, and adding pre/probiotics to my dog’s diet.

Is the salmon oil necessary if I use the VetriScience kidney support tabs?

Can someone who is knowledgeable with kidney disease in dogs advise on the supplements I would like to add to my dog’s diet? I know the best thing is to consult my vet, but perhaps someone on here who has gone something similar can advise.

[Anita L]

Kind of interesting that anon101 dismisses “homeopathic” (actually holistic, not homeopathic) sources of information and their own source happens to be quite biased too. The availability of vets who are aware of kibble-alternative diets may depend very much on where you live. Where I live, there are many holistically trained vets do not use only traditional veterinary knowledge, as helpful as that can be for many people.

A well-researched post about transitioning from a brick & mortar organization specializing in raw pet foods: https://sfraw.wordpress.com/2017/02/09/transitioning-to-raw-sfraw-recommends/ Hope it’s useful!

You can get the meats & bones at any butcher you would go to for your own meats. Bones are really inexpensive – just get small bones such as chicken necks, feet, to begin with, and avoid weight-bearing bones.

Personally, we give our 15 lb dog at least 2-3 meals of meaty chicken bones a week. We just approximate her usual 1/2 cup serving size from how big the bone looks. This is as a supplement to high-quality kibble and homemade (cooked) food, using Dr. Richard Pilcairn’s recipe. You may find his book helpful if you wish to learn more about alternative diets.

We have also fed prepackaged foods such as Primal brand, which comes in frozen patties. If you are open to freeze-dried, Stella and Chewy’s is also great. Ziwipeak is air-dried and an amazing food for the money (considering you can use it as a treat since it comes in little squares and is apparently delicious). All are more expensive than feeding raw sourced from grocery stores but those are premium brands for minimally processed food.

[Susan]

Hi Bailey,
thank-you for rescuing a shelter/pound dog, it could be a few reasons why he’s not eating, the antibiotics he’s taking are making him feel unwell, nausea, also having no food in his stomach then taking a tablet with a little treat isnt enough to absorb the tablet then makes him feel sick, only give antibiotic after youn know he has eaten at least 1/2 cup of food that’s if you can find something he likes to eat…
Is he happy, lively, excited etc or does he seem unwell?
I’d ring shelter or your better off going back to the shelter 7-9am in morning & ask the morning carers was he eating his dry kibble? he would have been feed a dry kibble coming from a shelter, the person feeding the dogs of a morning may remember him, if they say yes he was eating his kibble ask which brand was it & it’s the antibiotics making him unwell, how much longer does he have before antibiotics are finished? ask vet can the antibiotics be stopped & see if he starts to feel better, it will take about 1-2 days for him to feel good again…
He may be very depressed & is missing his old life/owner, he needs to gain trust with you & this takes time, he will come good it just takes some time & patience, best to get him in a routine, daily walks same time everyday, meals same time, get a plate or a chopping board not a “bowl” & put food on plate/chopping board in a certain place all the time that’s his special eating spot somewhere quiet & safe & walk away DO not look at him, NO eye contact just call him “Dinner” then walk away…

What I’ve found sometimes these rescue dogs have been feed a raw diet, not kibble/wet canned food, have you tried a raw meaty turkey leg take off the skin & sharp bone that runs along leg bone, run leg under hot water to take off chill off the meat & put in his special eating spot or outside on his chopping board & walk away & try watching him from afar but don’t let him know you’re watching him also egg have you tried whisking a egg, scramble lightly cook or add some boiled sweet potato & some cut up chicken pieces mixed thru… I buy the reduced cooked BBQ chickens from supermarket…

There’s a reason he’s not be eating, try & work it out why, the best place to start would go back to the shelter & ask staff more questions the people who does the feeding & hosing out cages of a morning, there’s always a few favourite dogs, he may have been one of the favorites & one of the carers took a liking to him & got to know him, how long was he at the shelter?

[poodaddy]

Or,… alternatively, anyone can take matters more into one’s own hands and start down the path of knowing what is a properly formulated raw canine diet. Easy to say but requires effort. You will be amazed at the power (applied through knowledge) that nutrition science overlaid with the love of your canine companion will bring you.

If so inclined, look up some of my posts and if you are interested in what you see, send me a note. The only feedback I have received on anything is from Anon and Dr Sagman (through LinkedIn) but no substantive discussion is occurring on this forum (with my project).

One approach to take is first gaining some understanding of the canine digestive tract, what its chemistry is designed for versus versus our human ones. Then we started on the personal education of what is kibble, how is it manufactured, then studied up on canine obesity so we understood some of the connectivity, then moved into macro nutrient profiles and learning from Vets specializing in canine nutrition what the macros should range in. Then we started down the road of raw food experimentation on a small scale which led us into planning, designed, manufacturing 100% canine raw menus and food for (our) dogs. The path traveled has been an incredible journey and still continues, albeit we are now in the last 1%-2% of the original project to implement a raw food model so we knew exactly what was in the menu and could correlate causes and results.

[Susan]

Hi Iva,
So sorry about Ralf, but he wants to play & is full of life this is a GOOD thing very good but start feeding him his home cooked diet again he’ll get more nutrition from a cooked diet, then the Hills Z/d, my last dog was put on the Hills Z/d she had Mast Cell Tumors 2008 & I didnt know anything about pet foods, I feed cooked & raw diets never had to feed a vet diet before, I thought cause I’m paying $140 for a vet diet this must be really good food & will help my girl she hated the Z/d dry kibble & she would cry in pain at night, her vet said she was just spoilt, unbelievable some of these vets, they have no compassion, she wasnt fed a dry kibble before so of cause her stomach hurt after she ate 2 big cups of dry kibble, probably when teh kibble swelled up in her stomach, I always think of my Angie if I only knew what I know now & we had internet sites like we have now I wouldnt have Put Her To sleep she was cancer free in the end but I couldn’t handle her crying of a night & she just didnt want to be here no more, she lost that spark in her eyes, NOW I know different my next dog I rescued he has IBD & we’ve been to hell & back the first 2 yrs, listen to Ralf if he wants cooked feed cooked or raw whatever he can eat….
I wonder if you contacted “Ketopets they do special diets for sick dogs & dogs with cancer they’re on facebook as well here’s their site http://www.ketopetsanctuary.com/ send them an email see if they have a recipe for Ralf,
Why do you keep the fat low? I did the same with Patch then the last 6months I’ve done the opposite, after looking at the Ketopet diet it’s high in fat, high in protein & very low fiber, you only add healthy green veggies for fiber, I’ve increased the fat protein in his diet, can you increase the fat in his diet & feed healthy whole foods high in omega fatty acid fats like Sardines, Salmon, Almonds, Turkey, Mussels etc, it’s taken 3-4 years & finally these last 6months my boy has gained weight finally he’s nilly 19kgs instead of being very lean 16-17kg, his vet wont believe it when she see’s him, she hasn’t had to see him since May-June….
Do you feed 4 smaller meals a day? I feed 5 smaller meals a day I might stop 1 of his meals now he’s gained weight…..
Ralf will get there, I know you will get the help Ralf needs… You are both in my prays….

[Susan]

Hi Jessica,
are you on facebook? join a few raw feeding groups, find 1 you like, also join “K-9 Nutrition” group it’s run by Lew Olson she has a book called “Raw & Natural Nutrition for dogs, very easy to follow recipes, I feed one of her recipes but I cook it instead minus any bone & I tweak it a bit for my IBD boy, there’s also “K-9 Kitchen” run by Monica Segal, follow Rodney Habib on his f/b page & get Dr Karen Beckers book “Real Food For Dogs & Cats” simple homemade food, her books are very hard to get a hold of & some nut was selling 1 of her books on Amazon for a ridiculous sum of money, I cant remember how much they wanted but I saw Karen’s in a video telling everyone do not pay any ridiculous amounts of money for her book as she is releasing another new book, it should be be out by now go onto Dr Karen Beckers f/b page & send her msg she answers, another really good person is Steve Brown he’s often in Rodney Habibs video’s giving advice how to balance your dogs raw diet….
There’s, “Hare Today Gone Tomorrow” https://hare-today.com/ sells what you need
or sometimes there’s places making homemade premade raw diets with human grade ingredients in your area, once you join a raw few feeding groups & ask question people will post cheap places in your area where to buy good quality meats in bulk, the Raw groups I belong too are Australian raw groups, there’s this group called “Raw Diet & Nutrition For Dogs” looks like it might be American, there’s lots of help in this group…
Good-Luck & keep us posted how they’re going…

[Jessica M]

Thank you for the info, some great topics to take into consideration. I have tried to talk to three different vets in my area, and they all refuse to discuss it. They push for the science diet they have in their office. I`m no veterinarian, but from the research i have done and a few people i have spoken with, i really do believe a raw diet is best for my dogs health.

[anonymous]

Discuss with your vet, the one you take your dogs to for annual checkups (hopefully) before making such a dramatic dietary change.

Some science based information here
.http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw+food

[Jessica M]

Hi,everyone i been researching raw diets for my dogs and want to make the switch, but where do i start. I have a Cavalier King Charles mix (25 pounds) and Australian Shepard Border Collie cross (38 pounds). What types of meat/cuts should i begin with ? Where do i buy the meat and bones ?
Any help towards the right direction will be greatly appropriated!!

[poodaddy]

For those interested in a dialog based (solely) on verifiable nutrition science behind canine raw feeding, with zero anecdotal influence, please view the related posts I have made in several of the areas related to questions being posted about “home-made”, “raw”, “menus”, “grinders”, etc etc etc.

We just completed our second annual physical for our two dogs along with a lengthy discussion about the Vet’s prior diagnosis over a year ago, updating that diagnosis, and the entire documented changes in our two dogs’ health that is backed up with detailed data of diet, canine nutrition, and facts. Our Vet is closely aligned with other Vets who have specializations with canine nutrition HQ-based in Los Angeles, and the bottom-line is our Vet has asked me to engage with those Veterinarian nutrition specialists, (solely) due to the nutrition model’s database, algorithms, real application by dog owners, AND the documented real outcomes in canine health experienced in the first year of an on-going practical application of moving from commercial dog food to (personally-researched, designed, prepared, fed) diet. I was also asked if I could make the model available (and that answer is of course no), but will be sharing with her (our primary Vet), the basis of database, calculations, metrics, and peripheral outputs such as charts, trends, and nutrition factors that get applied.

No gimmicks, no opinions, no conjectures, no debating, just application of nutrition science, nutrition data, and a 100% commitment to facts, results, and demystification of conflicting data and information.

[poodaddy]

For anyone interested, KevinB included, made some time to do some modifications, for”other than raw food”, to the Canine Nutrition application (in development) and the below is the output. Note that since I have still been unable to get a response from the manufacturer of Prosense Vitamins (Dale) (see above), I have not included any contribution to the diet of KevinB’s menu. Here is the output. What is not included below is a comparison of the menu to a standard, such as FEDIAF Nutrient Guidelines Canines or AAFCO Nutrient Requirements for Dogs as such, the below stops short of “analysis”. Copying data from Excel into this web page is problematic. Perhaps someone can instrucvt me on how to do it so the data stays aligned and tabular. Each of you can assess the menu now based on the nutrition science data for the food groups listed. All data was taken from nutritiondata.com which uses the USDA tables as the foundation. I have not yet found an instance where nutritiondata.com foods did not align with the USDA testing/data. I have QA-checked about a hundred (80%) and so far 100% checks with USDA databases.

FOOD GROUP Weight g %
ORGAN-MARROW 226.7960 3.89%
MUSCLE MEAT 3095.5520 53.16%
VEGITABLE/FRUIT 2501.1560 42.95%
OIL (Supplement) 0.0000 0.00%
MACROMINERALS (Supplement) 0.0000 0.00%
MACRONUTRIENTS g per day % per day
Prot 73.3489 53.40%
Carb 41.8999 30.51%
Fat 22.1016 16.09%
kcal (449 calc) 650.3830
kcal (ref calc) 670.3673
MACROMINERALS mg per day % per day
Calcium 220.2701 3.78%
*Phosphorous 490.8865 8.43%
Magnesium 114.1447 1.96%
Potassium 536.6109 9.21%
Sodium 152.5461 2.62%
Chloride 0.0000 0.00%
MICROMINERALS mg per day % per day
*Zinc 17.9585 0.31%
*Copper 0.6985 0.01%
*Iron 7.6319 0.13%
*Selenium 0.0901 0.00%
Iodine 0.0000 0.00%
Manganese 1.8323 0.03%
Chromium 0.0000 0.00%
Cobalt 0.0000 0.00%
Fluorine 0.0014 0.00%
Molybdenum 0.0000 0.00%
Silicon 0.0000 0.00%
Sulfur 0.0000 0.00%
VITAMINS mg per day % per day
Vitamin A 1.4918 0.03%
Vitamin B1 (Thiamin) 0.2384 0.00%
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 0.6905 0.01%
Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 6.6424 0.11%
Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 2.8011 0.05%
Vitamin B6 (piridoxine) 0.7010 0.01%
Vitamin B7 (Biotin) 0.0000 0.00%
Vitamin B9 (Folic Acid) 0.0328 0.00%
Vitamin B12 (Cobalamin) 0.0014 0.00%
Vitamin C 1.9644 0.03%
Vitamin D 0.0003 0.00%
Vitamin E 1.8694 0.03%
Vitamin K 0.0220 0.00%
Choline 243.2345 4.18%
FATS & FATTY ACIDS mg per day % per day
Polyunsaturated Fat (Omega-3) 439.6228 7.55%
Polyunsaturated Fat (Omega-6) 5010.4205 86.04%
Saturated Fat (g) 6.8897 0.12%
Monounsaturated Fat (g) 5.7914 0.10%
Polyunsaturated Fat (g) 6.1491 0.11%
Cholesterol 425.9580 7.31%
DATA & METRICS
Dog weight units lb
Dog weight 27.5
MERF 1.4
RER (kcal/day/dog) 464.5593
MER (kcal/day/dog) 650.3830
kcal/batch 8130.6591
Days/dog/batch 12.5013
Weight Batch g (no bone) 5823.5040
Weight Bone g 0.0000
Batch g per day per dog 465.8303
Ca:P 0.4487
Fat:Prot 0.3013

[Susan]

Hi ac,
Why I like the freeze dried Mussels is cause the shell is eatible, You need the shell for the Glucosamine & Chondroitin….
Steve Brown does recommend the cheap frozen mussels from supermarket, but the shells are still hard shells, cause Steve Brown feeds his dogs a raw diet his dogs would just crunch & eat these hard shells, Why I like the freeze dried mussels they seemed to be cooked, so some silly reason I feel better giving Patch the freeze Dried Mussels cause of his IBD….
My cat loves them, she mooooeeeewws the place down like she’s being killed when she see’s me getting out the mussels, I just say mussels & she comes running so does Patch he gets 2 & Indy just gets 1 freeze dried mussel, they’re a bit expensive the freeze dried mussels & they do have to be used within 10-14 days of opening the packet, it says on 1 of the New Zealand brand I buy….The freeze dried mussels just crumble as soon as they bite into them & I know Patch is getting his Glucosamine & Chondroitin from the shell for his joints, bones & his EPA, DHA, Manganese, Iodine, fats, Vitamin D from the mussel meat…
2 x Mussels + Shell are also good to balance a raw diet, Steve said some raw diets are usually short of Iodine, Manganse, Fats & Vitamin D…

[Susan]

Hi Cody,
start doing your own research so your puppy has a good start to her life, follow “Rodney Habib” on his facebook page https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib & watch his new free 5 part video’s “The Truth About Pet Cancer” scroll down Rodney’s F/B page & find Episode 2 & 3 & WATCH these episoes PLEASE so your pup has the best start to her life, also feed 4 smaller meals a day “Canidae” has their All Life Stages, Large Breed Puppy Duck Meal formula, or Turkey Meal Brown rice Wet & Dry formula’s.
https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products scroll down a bit look to your right for
“View All” then click on Pages 5 & 9 for Large Breed Puppy Forumla’s & later when your pup is 6 months old start adding fresh healthy foods to her diet & rotate between different kibble brands so she isnt eating the same food 24/7, Pitbulls Staffys are prone to food sensitivities & skin allergies so get her use to a variety of foods & this strengthen her Immune System, just make sure if she is going to be fed a dry kibble her whole life you rotate kibbles but after watching Rodney Habib video’s Im pretty sure you’ll be looking for healthier food instead of feeding dry processed kibble, I only feed dry Kibble cause my boy didn’t have the best start in his life & now has IBD & cant eat a raw/cooked diet..

[Susan]

Hi
Atlas & Cockalier Mom as well,

I follow “Rodney Habib” https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib on his face book page, Dr Karen Becker & Rodney have been traveling all over the world speaking & interviewing Dr’s Vets, Scientists etc like Dr Steve Marsden, Dr Marty Goldstein, Dr Jean Dobbs, Dr Richard Patton, Dr John Robb, Dr Ian Billinghurst, Dr Gregory Ogilive, DR Karen Becker, Dr Erin Bannink, Dr Joseph Mercola, Dr Tim Spector & many more & Rodney & Ty Bollinger have put together a 5 part video’s free so we all can learn how to have a healthy dog the way nature intended them to be, click on Rodneys link above then scroll down his page & look for “The Truth About Pet Cancer” Episode 2, “Hidden Hazards & Causes” get a cuppa sit back & watch, then watch Episode 3 Raw Diet vs Kibble, Episode 4 “Heal & Repair” has just been put on Rodneys F/B page.
“Steve Brown” is also good to follow when it comes to healthy feeding & what to add to your dogs diet, when Steve Brown was asked, if he had to add just 1 ingredient what would he add to balance the diet & he said “Mussels” they’re cheap & very healthy, Mussels have Manganese, Iodine, Fats, Vitamin D, EPA, DHA, Glucosamine, Chondrotoitin get some Freezed Dried Green Lipped Mussels I buy “K-9 Natural” New Zealand Brand, Patch gets 2 Mussels a day around 11am, yes he does do a few smelly farts after he eats te Mussels but so far pooo’s have stayed the same firm & I know Mussels are very healthy for his skin, coat & his joints, he’s nilly 9yrs old in Novemeber, Steve also said to add 1 spoon of Salmon & a pinch of kelp to their diets….
Dr John Robb & Jean Dobbs are really good Dr’s watch their interviews about Vaccinations in “The Truth About Cancer” Episode 2, we all want answers why are our pets dying so young from cancer & other diseases, back 20-30 yrs ago this wasn’t happening cause we weren’t putting all these flea tick poisons on or in their bodies or feeding dry processed kibble, we feed table scaps what we ate, we didn’t over vaccinate, I only remember my mum going to the old drunk vet up the road when the cats needed desexing or putting down, she’s carried them in small round leather bag & bring them back & burry them in the back yard.
When watching these video’s get a writing pad to jot things down quickly, in Episode 3 when Ty Bollinger who is also doing these Episode with Rodney Ty talks about what he uses for Flea products, after watching this section of the video you will think twice before using any poison flea products, Ty said he gets “Orange Oil”, “Lemon Oil” & “Grapefruit Oil” he gets a little 99c spray bottle adds a few squirts of all 3 oils then add some water shakes & spray Atlas for Fleas & Ticks instead of giving him any poison flea products, Mike Adams said he uses “Cedar Oil” for fleas & Ticks especially if your dogs swims, the Cedar Oil doesn’t wash off, Dr Eward Group uses “Diatomaseous Earth” for worms & heartworm adds once a week to 1 of the meals “do NOT give him any of these new Flea Chews or tablets” they change the dogs blood, so think about it a tick has just bitten your dog & the Tick dies straight away, this poison is in their blood running & pumping thru their body going thru our dogs organs now that wouldn’t be healthy for the dogs. Bravecto should be taken off the shelves its the worst flean product & cause its new we dont have any real research yet about long term side effects, the Poisons in Bravecto stays in a dogs body heaps longer then the 3 months it states on Bravecto, vets have taken blood tests from very sick dog after they had been given Barvecto Chew & became very ill & 9mths later these sick dogs still had the poisons that are in Bravecto still in their system…
There’s not much research when it comes to our dogs & cats especially food & diet, most of the research is done by the big companies like Hills but in Australia our vets & some of our pet food companies tell us pet owners if you feed kibble also add raw meaty bones to the dogs or cats diet at least once or twice a week, we have one brand kibble called “Stay Loyal” made by brothers & they tells their customers to fast your dog 1 day a week Sunday & feed raw meathy bones instead of a kibble meal thru the week, this is what all pet food companies should be doing being honest with pet owners but it wont happen in America…
I hope you both enjoy watching Rodney & Ty Bollingers video’s there’s a lot to sink in so maybe watch the video’s a few times, the sad part is we have sick pets & cant do alot of the things like feed the Raw Diet but we still can add healthy foods to their diets, in 1 yr time when Atlas is an Adult & gut has healed, Atlas might be able to chew on a nice raw meaty bone & have no problems at all later on, he’s lucky he has you helping heal & fix his intestinal problem now in the beginning while he’s still a pup, so chances are his intestinal tract will slowly heal & then just avoid the foods he’s sensitive too, where Patches old owners we think he had a few owners cause of his name “Patch” he didnt know or answer to Patch when I get him thru rescue & he was micro chipped at 3months old all details DOB were on his M/C paper work, patches first owner must of given him up to someone else cause he would of answered to Patch, his owners mustnt of bothered when he had diarrhea or did real sloppy poo’s & just kept feeding him them same diet that was causing all his intestinal problems ..When I move I’m re introducing Patch onto raw again, I’m trying 1 last time, he’s getting a Crocodile meaty bone for his 9th birthday, he always pulls me to the fridge section & looks at the raw Crocodile & Kangaroo meaty bones….
We can stop using the flea tick products, I don’t use any flea/tick, allwormers or no Heartworm products, Patch always became real ill after I’d use any flea/tick products & his vet said NO to all the new flea/tick chews & tablets, the Fleas dont seem to jump on him, he doesnt seem to get any fleas only 1 Summer the fleas at the Park were bad we had had heaps of rain & a few fleas would jump up on his legs but he’d tell me straight away, he’d stop walking & look to where the flea was on his body & I’d squeeze inbetween nails & kill them, I dont use allwormers or Heart wormers either I dont live in a bad Heartworm area ask your vet he’ll know if your living in a high heartworm area, the only flea product Patches vet said to use & doesn’t go thru to the dogs blood is “Frontline Plus” Spot On & Frontline Spray, the rest all go into the dogs blood, that’s another thing try & find a GOOD vet, there’s some bodgee vets around & some really good vets like Rodney’s video’s they do heaps more studying after they have become vets & learn heap more about diet, nutrition, poisons, vaccines etc did you know a vet isnt taught how to prevent your dog from getting sick or cancer the vet is just taught how to treat the dying dog who already has cancer or is already sick, that’s sad I think…..
I’ve seen a lot of different vets over the years thru rescue, you have vets that love giving the dogs drugs & dont bother working out why this is happening with teh dog etc but lately the vets I’m seeing thru the pounds that are younger & learning now have an different approach then the more older cranky vets, so I hoping thats going to be a good thing for the future of our pets….

[haleycookie]

A raw diet is a very good diet for some dogs. If you have an Instagram check out flynnandace.eats. She has it private because of hateful fear mongering ppl such as anon above but just request and she’ll usually accept a few days later. She has four dogs on a raw whole prey diet. She mainly videos her two working breed shepherds on a whole prey diet. They eat whole rabbits sometimes. She’s had all four of her dogs on whole prey for a long time with only positive effects. Bones aren’t a scary thing if you feed the right kind. There are many accounts I follow that do whole prey raw diets and none of them had had any issues at all.

[Susan]

Hi Joseph,
its fine what Roar is doing, I have a English Staffy (in my photo) Patch & he’s a chomper all gone in under 1 minute this is how some dogs eat & it’s normal I’ve been told, in the wild they dont have all day to eat their kill they eat it as quick as they catch it before another wild dog comes along, same as our wild Dingoes in Australia they are fast eaters aswell…
My Boxer female would have her meaty raw bone all day & slowly eat it same as her weekly treat pig nose or pig ear, she’d take around 2 days slowly chewing but my Staffy Patch its gone & he’s looking for more, I can’t give Patch the pig ears or nose no more, he chews chews & swollows the pig nose, so instead he gets “Kangaroo Tendons” its the strong Achillies Tendon in the back of the Kangaroos strong back legs. Kangaroo Tendons are excellent for chompers & breeds like Staffys/Pit Bulls…High in Protein, High in Omega 3 Allergen free, no additives or preservitives…

Are you on facebook Joseph? go onto “Rodney Habib” F/B page he has finally made his video’s after traveling around the world doing research this last year, link below.
“The Truth about Pet Cancer” Episode 2 & 3 you’ll have to scroll down his page a bit for Episode 2 both video’s go for about 35-40mins, after watching you are going to be very happy you have changed your dogs onto a raw BARF diet, its the best thing you’ve done for them feeding a BARF diet & raw meaty bones it’s what their ment to eat…..

It’s great you’ve got Luna all better, it just shows us raw works it’s what Dogs & Cats are ment to eat not this over processed dry crap they call healthy kibble, watch episode 3, it shows the University of Helsinki did a 15 yrs study & they proved raw is better to fed our dogs. https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib

[Joseph S]

I was looking at a $2500 (after spending $800) estimate for a vet bill to save my sweetheart Luna. I did a weekends worth of research and decided to put my dogs on a BARF diet. A month and a half later Luna is about 100% better. And all 3 of my dogs are acting about 200% happier. But I have a question about my pitbull Roar, when I feed them bones Luna and Precious chew on them for about an hour. But Roar chomps his bone down in about 2 minutes. There doesn’t seem to be any negative effects, only a little sad as he looks at Luna and Precious while they chew on their bones. My question is, could him chewing up the bones so fast potentially be unhealthy?

[poodaddy]

Hi Virginia D and others. Here is our story on this specific issue of dog gas. I hope it reveals some aspects of the nutrition side. First, the advice about exercise can be 50%+ of a solution with any dog since all dogs are to some degree “athletes” that NEED exercise; exercise is not just cardiovascular but also depending on the breed can resolve many other issues that do not “seem” to be related, such as anal gland functionality. Now, I am neither a vet, nor a certified anything, but I have been a field dog handler and student of canine performance for a very long time, now using some skills to start my understanding of canine nutrition science.

Before my current two cockapoos, I had a yellow lab raised from birth as a field dog (and household pet). He lived a long healthy life and I want to share with you and others on this posting, the experimenting I did with my yellow lab AND recently (less than a year ago) with my two cockapoos. I decided to figure out in both cases (my yellow lab diet) and the two poos diets, what would happen to their digestive tract, specifically in the generation of gas, if I kept all other factors as constant as possible. What I did was figure out what percentage of their diet was protein from their kibble and then I moved them into a kibble/raw diet and stabilized the protein at 50% for a while. We raised the protein percentage in about 5% increments starting at 50% until noticeable gas started, then we leveled off to ensure it was constant. Then I increased it more until just shy of 80% and the gas creation (making sure all other things were held constant) was amazing (from a biological view). I had some old notes from my yellow lab days that I needed to convince myself of with the two poos and the results compared favorably. The nutritionist readers will have LOTS of variables that contribute to this and I would probably agree with them all, such as some combinations of foods work together to control the chemical processing in a digestive tract. For this little experiment we did, we simply wanted to know how did our dogs’ digestive tracts react to protein percentage (period) nothing more sophisticated. And we found that percentage for our specific cases that correlated for one yellow lab and two cockapoos. That result was when we reached 80% protein % from raw meat where raw boneless chicken was 60% and raw red meat was 30%+ (the remainder of protein was from other non-meat ingredients), the gas production increased rapidly.

For the testing period, and menu stablization, we used these macro goals: Protein 60%, Carbohydrate 20%, Fat 20% and then increased the protein using boneless chicken until gas started and then continued increasing it to see if there was more production and there was a correlation. By the way, body builders and most human athletes have a similar issue with protein in their diets.

So, the other comments made about overeating are on solid ground if feeding a yellow lab from kibble where the lab will eat whatever amount is placed in front of them. My reading suggests that some canines will eat low protein foods until they get the protein they need which some authors suggest that this contributes to canine obesity. The point is, some of the comments above are right on in that there may be a correlation with your lab and the amount of bulk he/she is intaking compared to feeding times and exercise.

For this post though, I wanted to share with you that for one small item in a controlled environment, we proved that changing one item (protein % using raw chicken as the variable in an otherwise balanced diet), caused the onset of gas and continued to increase as the protein % increased. Here is the makeup of the most recent raw diet our two dogs are on. These ingredients are part of an integrated nutrition model that is in development. This the first time I have shared this data but it is nearing time to engage the nutritionist forum posters. I am providing this data primarily so you know the above is not some quacked out post. This was a real experiment and perhaps the results and posts will help you (and others) where gas is an issue. All numbers are in grams weight.

Raw Chicken heart 1252
Raw Chicken liver 765
Raw Chicken gizzard 2106
Raw Chicken Marrow 315
Organ 10.8% by weight

Raw Eye Round Roast 6000
Raw Whole chicken”fryer”/deskin/grd bone 16200
Whole XL eggs 2232
Raw Bottom Round 2000
Muscle meat 64.3% by weight

Shredded Carrot 500
Raw Zucchini 484
Boiled Sweet Potato 3500
Raw NAPA Cabbage 953
Boiled Raw Edamame 800
Boiled Green Beans 1000
Raw Butternut squash 459
Raw Whole Apple 921
Raw Baby Spinach 400
Kelp Powder 100
Yellow Squash 423
Vegitable/Fruit 23.2% by weight

Coconut Oil 600
Oil Supplement 1.5% by weight

Sea Calcium 65
Macromineral Supplement 0.16% by weight

Notes:
1. The Sea Calcium is used to force the CA:P ratio to 1.2 in this menu.
2. This made 60 days of food each for two dogs, one at 13.5 LBs and one at 15.5 LBs.
3. The menu planned cost for food was $0.94 per day per dog.
4. The final results after shopping with same %s design was $1.10 per day per dog.
5. Energy analysis resulted in 306 g per day and 339 g per day for each dog.
6. Custom MER factor used as 1.4 (based on iterations over 6 months of menus).
7. 1,260 g contribution by weight due to bone.
8. 2.5% contribution on the organ side due to chicken marrow, based on my own experiments.
9. Energy required per day: 381 Cal for 13.5 LBs and 423 Cal for the 15.5 LBs poos.

Results of this menu are outstanding in all measured areas. Am in the process of peeling back “supplements and vitamins” for what they really are or aren’t. Hope this detail helps you or others. More to come from our quest for canine nutrition knowledge and practical applications.

[jella]

My husband and I wouldn’t even know where to start to make a high quality raw diet. I mentioned it to him but he said that he would rather purchase it instead. I see there is 5100 types of dog foods and over 400 companies so we thought at least there might be many suggestions.

[Brian G]

Sounds like you may have better luck and peace of mind feeding a raw food diet. Dog food companies change ingredients all the time and sometimes the food has ingredients that aren’t listed on the bag.
Best of Luck

[poodaddy]

I would like to offer some personal insight into this but in no way intend to suggest that any comments above are “wrong”; I just want to provide a view into the prism of how a licensed professional may look at advising consumers. As a preamble, if a selected food works for the dog, and if that dog is in good health, i.e. not suffering from symptoms of improper diet such as excessive anal gland secretion, inconsistent stools, on-set of periodontal issues, skin issues, weight control variations, lethargy, where symptoms are not backed by medical testing, etc, then great.

But, …. as a licensed professional in a different industry, I can tell you the reason why any licensed professional will not advocate to a consumer for doing something that requires a certain threshold level of knowledge to implement it. It is one of professional LIABILITY. I become more and more convinced every day the reason veterinarians recommend a scientifically-balanced commercially manufactured diet is the liability for the vet to suggest anything else is unlimited – period. For example, I would not “recommend a person go build their own wing on a house” or “recommend a person change their food intake to a personal menu” but I would recommend a set of plans designed/sealed by others and or hiring a licensed individual to do the design work and I would recommend an industry professional be consulted before recommending something as vague as “raw diets are good so go do it”. That would invite a level of criticism that licensed professionals are not insured against.

Raw diet is primarily a matter of nutrition science and design; if I were a vet, my initial position would advise a non-professional against a raw diet as a matter of practice. We peeled this back on the pet food manufacturing side with the consultants or nutrition experts internal the manufacturers (which is where the liability is for commercial dog food) and found that our Vet “switched” to become supportive of a raw food diet when our nutrition data was presented and was customized to our dogs and when when combined with a Vet’s prescriptions to treat ailments that now are gone and there is scientific data to back it. It should not surprise anyone reading this post, that our Vet could not say “stop doing that when problems vanished.” The vet knew we had crossed over a threshold and were not coming back. This may surprise you but I would never recommend to anyone to just go do a raw food diet after what I have learned, unless, (1) using another professional’s complete diet with the data to back it up and or (2) doing it yourself … which is a huge commitment to an entirely new level of commitment to control the input data, measure the output data to know with certainty (=/- say ~3%) of what the data is showing.

I hope this provides a more full picture of the why a vet would not “openly advocate to consumers” to go do something that would most likely be FAR worse than buying commercially prepared and manufacturer-backed balanced dog food.

[poodaddy]

Ahhh, it is the weekend again and time to post good stuff. A lot of the above sounds soooo familiar with our situation for our both dogs, plus we had many other simultaneous symptoms occurring with our dogs, inconsistent stools, anal gland flare-ups, tooth/gum issues, we had been “fighting” the symptoms for so long it seemed we were destined for either living with it or changing the outcome. We were at the 4-year mark with our two cockapoos and I had enough of the personal ignorance and following everyone’s prescriptions including our Vet’s. So,… the long road on research and learning began (and it still continues), discussions with our Vet at a far more informed level (or at least the level I could study to), lots of webinars listened to given by licensed Vets with pet nutrition specializations, and reading reading reading. Talking to senior GOV nutritionists including the USDA, talking with pet consultant business owners, etc – you get the idea now that this was a lot of figuring out stuff that I could find in one condensed place. The secret we eventually (over an intense investigation period of months) came to was that we needed to take charge of the food data and get it done (science-based input = good results/output). The bottom-line in our case is that until we went to a complete raw food diet (this means really knowing first-hand what we were doing), we were destined on a course of mediocrity or worse and chasing symptoms which I (we) had enough of. The addition of ground bones and connective tissue with the raw diet addressed many issues (but that is just the beginning of the solutions). The experience, learning, demystification of misinformation, disinformation, and anecdotal information that is “out there” is staggering. This whole experience of ours is one that is very enriching and I am on a quest to tell everyone I can about the lessons learned, the solutions put into practice, the observations and iterations to make tweeks to the raw diet, etc needed to take control. On the money side, we have avoided thousands of dollars and or lots of worrisome situations with our two dogs. Because cost comes up regularly, our food cost ranges from an average of $1.00-$1.25 per dog per day (13.5 lb and 15.5 lb) not including time to plan, design, iterate, shop, prepare, manufacture, bag, clean up. And our Vet just smiles at us when we go in for the check-ups and tells us congratulations, you have broken some barriers of ignorance and have the data to back up your “program”. So, we are on the quest to get this project done and share the nutrition model (and all that goes into it) with those who want or need to start where we are and not have to recreate it. The model is in the final phase of designing the menu analysis section for supplements needed (or not needed) but it is based on nutrition data. Disclaimer: the model does not address any aspect of diet for treating diagnosed disease(s). The model is about proper diet and maximizing probability of prevention of problems that can be avoided by applying nutrition science.

[a c]

I have been adding raw zucchini and yellow squash to their diet. They don’t care for raw broccoli. I tried broil baby kale and then cutting it up today, and they have no problem with it. I just love to give them some fresh veggies. I haven’t try okra. The only time I use okra is in the gumbo.

My 10 years old girl had pancreatitis once earlier this year after we gave her some leftover bbq. She really like it, but not her tummy. She end up getting IV therapy for 3 days, the metronidazole, and Science Diet ID.

Our vet recommended Purina One Smartblend Healthy Weight as maintenance, but it’s nothing but carbs. I tried Horizon Amicus Senior, but the calories are a little too high. I am now trying Annemaet reduced fat. Both are grain free. I will see how it goes. Ideally, I want to mix rotate a couple kibbles. I also add a little wet food or something we eat as the topper.

[Susan]

Hi Charles,
are you using a medicated shampoo like “Malaseb Medicated shampoo” ? the Malaseb shampoo kills the yeast on skin & paws & can be used daily, also puts moisture back into the skin paws etc, my boy gets the same yeasty paws, skin ears etc Malaseb is excellent ask vet or sold on Amazon, my boy has food sensitivities & seasonal environment allergies, the 2 normally go together, I did food elimintaion diet & worked out what foods he’s sensitive too. Have you looked into feeding a RAW diet?? alot of these dogs do heaps better when the kibble is stopped & feed either freeze dried raw or pre made raw diet…

A really good facebook group to join that has a Dermatologist “Karen Helton Rhodes” is calleed “Dog Issues. Allergies & other information Support Group” Karen also runs her own site called “Canine Skin Solutions”
Another thing I use is creams every night I check Patches paws, around his mouth & the white fur above this left eye & if it looks red & is itchy I apply Hydrocortisone 1% cream that Patches vet recommend I use, I also get a cotten tip & put the Hydrocortisone cream inbetween his paws & pads, then when he wakes in the morning his paws skin around mouth is all clear & pink not red then I use “Sudocrem” its for Dermatitis, Eczema, Nappy Rash, Pressure Sores, the Sudocrem acts as a barrier & protects the skin & paws from environment allergies, it’s excellent, if you live America look on Amazon & Ebay….

These’s a new drug made by the same makers that make awful Aqopuel, it’s called “Cytopoint” injections, works in a different way to how Apoquel works
Cytopoint injections blocks the receptors where Apoquel blocks the reaction from the allergen receptors, Apoquel doesn’t work on yeast problems. There’s suppose to be less to no side effects & people are saying Cytopoint is the new mircale drug & they have itch free dog now… if you join the Dog Issues, Allergies & Other Information Support group you can learn more, a few people use the Cytopoint injection thru Spring & Summer months then stop thru the cooler months when the evironment allergies arent bad.

I have found giving weekly baths using the creams & a diet high in Omega 3 fatty acids I’m keeping Patches allergies under control & make sure he’s not eating any foods he’s senstivie too I also rotate his foods so he’s not eating the same diet 24/7, I found Patch started to react more when he just ate the same kibble 24/7 especially with his IBD,
my boy also has IBD brought on from food senstivities….
I feed “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb & look at “Canidae” Pure formulas the Pure Sea & Pure Sky is suppose to be really good for dogs with Allergies its high in Omega 3 fatty acids, I rotate & feed the Canidae Pure Wild Boar cause the fat & protein is a bit lower then the Pure Sea, Patch does well on Lamb, Pork & Kangaroo, feed him some chicken & he starts itching within 20mins & carrots make his ears itch then yeasty smell ears..
There’s Dr B’s Barf Kangaroo Raw, its Australian but its sold in America you could do 1 meal raw the other meal kibble.. put the cream on those paws & watch them stop itching..

[poodaddy]

The below was a response to a thread created in the “Trolls and Spam” area of this forum. It was loosely related to a perception that a raw dog food model may be a homeopathic method. So the response below was generated. I thought those of you interested in this raw food thread may also be interested in the below response to anan101.

October 11, 2017 at 3:32 pm
#105078

@anon101

I think this new thread and discussion is probably suited for a different area of the web site, since I think this area is for Reporting Trolls and Spam. If you can let me know where to jump to, we can do that. Perhaps there will be others interested in the “homeopathic” thread, which I have no perspective on, am ignorant about, do not have time to get into at this time, and is unrelated to anything I am doing.

After visiting the link you sent and there appears to be some confusion about what I am doing versus your area(s) of interest. My area of focus has zero to do with homeopathic interests in any way. I am developing a Nutrition Model (computer application) that is based on the latest canine nutrition design criteria I can find, every variable I can find and understand that professional canine nutritionists use for the planning, designing and implementing of “raw dog food”. I am on a quest to demystify the subject using my mathematical, Excel, and research skills to (eventually) open the world of raw dog food menu development and analysis to ANYONE interested in the subject.

In a separate area of interest, I have been cataloging as a test group of two (my dogs) the Vet-identified issues they had one year ago versus the Vet-confirmed mitigation or elimination of those issues as a result of recorded actions I have taken – most of which are raw dog food preparation since March 2017. This will be the subject of personally authored technical articles (for the future due to time constraints).

In short, my project addresses the ingredients, metrics, and nutrition stats associated with self-manufacturing “Raw Dog Food” vs buying “Commercially Mass-Produced Dog Food”. It is a very interesting subject that is also very detailed, analytical, and inter-related with post-feeding data capture such as weekly weigh-ins, trends of grams of food per batch, and documenting observed changes that can be correlated with a raw food diet.

I am already addressing much of this elsewhere on this DogFoodAdvisor forum. Perhaps you would like to participate or not. My next action is the nutrition analysis of KevinB’s post in Jan 2017 asking for comments on his menu. I am testing the veracity of my model (in progress) against his menu and will report out the micronutrition and vitamin information from the model (in a week or so).

I am not selling raw dog food preparation to anyone. In fact, I am cataloging the level of effort, skills, process, equipment, hygiene, and so on, of everything related to raw dog food preparation at home. I am a scientist, an engineer, and businessman addressing solutions to disinformation, misinformation, fog of lack of information, and or professional greed that keeps information from everyday people who need to know how to address their questions and resolve them for themselves related to raw dog food. This will be my contribution this year.

[Charles B]

We have a foster Golden Retreiver, that we just recently adopted.

He came to us in the June timeframe with a skin infection, and ear infections. Yeast present on his skin and ears.

He came to us on Kirkland Signature Chicken dogfood. We switched him cold turkey to Fromm Salmon as our other dog was on it (and they only gave us 4 cups of his old food.) We got put on an anti fungal medication, ear rinsing, ear drops, a powder for his tummy, and some cleaning wipes for 3 weeks. At the end he was all cleared up. We continued to work on his diet as it was still an apparent issued. We tried Fromm Weight Management (fish) and had awful results. He was horrifically itchy to the point of gnawing and needing a cone. We tried Pro Plan Skin Sensitivity Salmon and had an improvement, but it did not settle with his GI. We had an alergy shot and tried several different allergy meds. No luck. We got Apoquel – this worked, and after being on it for a month we backed off. During this time when we backed off, we did more diet adjusting.

Finally we tried Zignature Kangaroo – bingo. Perfect. Minor itches, no digging at his face, chewing his groin etc. Also tried Zignature Venison – ok”ish”, when we got to the end of the bag we were itching.

On the 1st of the month we give our dogs their nexguard. On the 3rd of the month we took him to the vet for licking his rear left foot toe #2-3 raw. Had a bacterial infection near the nail (we had assumed it was a foot injury that he licked over over 1-2 days.) He got an antibiotic, cleaning wipes, and powder.

On the last day of the month we gave him nexguard again and guess what… we are back to a “sick foot” again. So we think we might be allergic to something in the pill and are looking at other options.

But going back to the vet on the 2nd of the month, he shows he has yeast on his paw, and he has started digging at his face again.

I really dont want to put him back on Apoquel until we get his skin issues figured out again.

SO now we are on the Zignature Kangaroo, cleaning the foot daily, and the vet is offering another round of anti-fungal meds.

What else can we do?

[poodaddy]

I think this new thread and discussion is probably suited for a different area of the web site, since I think this area is for Reporting Trolls and Spam. If you can let me know where to jump to, we can do that. Perhaps there will be others interested in the “homeopathic” thread, which I have no perspective on, am ignorant about, do not have time to get into at this time, and is unrelated to anything I am doing.

After visiting the link you sent and there appears to be some confusion about what I am doing versus your area(s) of interest. My area of focus has zero to do with homeopathic interests in any way. I am developing a Nutrition Model (computer application) that is based on the latest canine nutrition design criteria I can find, every variable I can find and understand that professional canine nutritionists use for the planning, designing and implementing of “raw dog food”. I am on a quest to demystify the subject using my mathematical, Excel, and research skills to (eventually) open the world of raw dog food menu development and analysis to ANYONE interested in the subject.

In a separate area of interest, I have been cataloging as a test group of two (my dogs) the Vet-identified issues they had one year ago versus the Vet-confirmed mitigation or elimination of those issues as a result of recorded actions I have taken – most of which are raw dog food preparation since March 2017. This will be the subject of personally authored technical articles (for the future due to time constraints).

In short, my project addresses the ingredients, metrics, and nutrition stats associated with self-manufacturing “Raw Dog Food” vs buying “Commercially Mass-Produced Dog Food”. It is a very interesting subject that is also very detailed, analytical, and inter-related with post-feeding data capture such as weekly weigh-ins, trends of grams of food per batch, and documenting observed changes that can be correlated with a raw food diet.

I am already addressing much of this elsewhere on this DogFoodAdvisor forum. Perhaps you would like to participate or not. My next action is the nutrition analysis of KevinB’s post in Jan 2017 asking for comments on his menu. I am testing the veracity of my model (in progress) against his menu and will report out the micronutrition and vitamin information from the model (in a week or so).

I am not selling raw dog food preparation to anyone. In fact, I am cataloging the level of effort, skills, process, equipment, hygiene, and so on, of everything related to raw dog food preparation at home. I am a scientist, an engineer, and businessman addressing solutions to disinformation, misinformation, fog of lack of information, and or professional greed that keeps information from everyday people who need to know how to address their questions and resolve them for themselves related to raw dog food. This will be my contribution this year.

[Susan]

Hi Poodaddy,
Welcome to DFA, I really enjoyed your story, the same thing happened with my cat Jeremy he was 10yrs old & his breath was awful, his teeth were full of tarter from eating wet tin food & dry kibble & a cooked food (what I ate) Jeremy loved his food & made daily visits to a few neigbours places, same time everyday for 14 yrs, he was a Main Coon, a beautiful big cat, he was the same height as my English Staffy Patch, his vet said we can clean his teeth & it will cost $460 & if any teeth need removing it will be an extra $50 per tooth, plus he will need a blood test before we can give him any anaesthetic cause he’s 10yrs old or you can start giving him chicken necks, vet said I’ve seen really good results giving cats chicken necks, so naturally I pick the safe & natural way to clean his teeth & I started giving him meaty chicken necks & chciken wings he loved them & the tarter started to come off his teeth & no more smelly breath, I just wish I fed him a raw diet earlier, poor Jeremy passed away age 14, then Patch became real sick again with his IBD vet didn’t know what was wrong, his diet hadn’t changed but he was having a bad IBD flare, STRESS he was really depressed since Jeremy had been PTS, so the best thing to do was adopt a new cat so off we went to the RSPCA, they knew we were coming & had a few cats waiting to met Patch, Patch picked this scrawny, skinny 5 month old street kitten with a bent tail, a bent ear & had had bad ear mites & was still being treated for really bad ear infection caused by the ear mites infestation, I said to Patch look there’s a beautiful looking ginger boy he’s friendly he’s a kitten he’s NOT SICK, but Patch really liked this little scrawny kitten & she really took to Patch, they both really liked each other straight away… As the days passed Patch got better & was like a young pup playing, running, giving his balls to this kitten, the kitten “Indy” washes him at night before bed & now she thinks she is a dog not a cat cause she has been brought up by a dog, Indy is feed a raw diet she eats everything & loves her freeze Dried Green Lipped Mussels every day…..

….”Steve Brown” when asked if you had to pick just 1 food to add to your dog bowl of fresh food to make it better, what would it be, Steve said Mussels… they’re cheap, they have Iodine, Manganese, Omega 3, DHA, EPA, Vitamin-D, alot of raw foods are short of Iodine, fats & Vitamin-D so add 1-2 mussels a day, also add 1 tablespoon of Salmon & a pinch of Kelp…Follow “Rodney Habib” on facebook. https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib

Rodney & Ty Bollinger interview medical professionals & cancer scientists to find the truth about PET CANCER & their new documentry “The Truth About Pet Cancer” is finally being released 17th October 2017….. Best thing you’ve done is put your dogs on a raw diet.. when I move into my house 1-2 months I’m re trying Patch on a raw diet again this time no enzymes or probiotics & I’ll see if it works out this time, I hate feeding him dry processed kibble & he see’s Indy getting raw meal, it breaks my heart…

[anonymous]

Vitamin C strikes (out) again

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2016/07/things-holistic-vets-say-about-cancer-that-should-make-pet-owners-run-the-other-way/ (excerpts out of context below, click on link for full article and comments) Nothing is being sold. Science-based veterinary medicine.

Things Holistic Vets Say About Cancer that Should Make Pet Owners Run the Other Way
Posted on July 5, 2016 by skeptvet
Cancer is a common and frightening disease, and many pet owners will have to face making decisions about cancer care for their pets at some point. While there are many therapies that can improve quality of life for a veterinary cancer patient, extend life, and even cure cancer in some cases, the painful reality is that there is much we don’t know about cancer. Often, cancer will be life limiting despite the best care possible.
This unpleasant reality leads many to seek alternative therapies for their pets with cancer. Unfortunately, those alternatives are almost never proven to be safe or effective, and many, such as homeopathy, are unquestionably nonsense. Yet despite the lack of evidence to support many alternative cancer treatments, and the evidence that shows some such treatments can cause real harm, some vets will try to frighten and mislead pet owners into avoiding scientific medical therapies and grasping at the various straws they offer, from homeopathy to acupuncture, from supplements and magical diets to outright magic such as so-called “energy medicine.”

“In the face of the ubiquitous unreliable information from holistic vets such as these, it can be hard to sort out which information is truly useful. Here are some resources that are a good bit more trustworthy”.
Veterinary Cancer Society (This group also has a tool for finding a board-certified veterinary cancer specialist.) Here are some of the links the VCS recommends:
ACVIM Foundation
American Animal Hospital Association Healthy Pets
American Association of Feline Practitioners
American College of Veterinary Radiology
Animal Cancer Center at CSU
Animal Cancer Foundation
Animal Clinical Investigation, LLC
Boo Radley Foundation
Brazilian Society of Veterinary Oncology
C3O: Center of Clinical Comparative Oncology
Canine Health Foundation
Cornell’s College of Veterinary Medicine “Consultant”
ESVONC (European Society of Veterinary Oncology)
Magic Bullet Fund
Perseus Foundation
PubMed
QuitDay.org
Morris Animal Foundation
The National Cancer Institute
UC Davis Comparative Cancer Center
University of Pennsylvania’s “Oncolink”
Vaccine Associated Feline Sarcoma Task Force
Veterinary Center for Clinical Trials at the University of California-Davis
Veterinary Society of Surgical Oncology
The Veterinary Cancer Center

[MATT C]

Wow! That sounds like quite the project and quite the commitment. Since my wife is now working more hours (away from the home) we decided that this was not going to be the right time to transition Jasper’s diet. We’ll be looking for a time when I will be home for a stretch to deal with any digestive “issues”.

On a separate note, one of the major revelations regarding his gut issues came about a few weeks ago. We finally realized that his “flare-ups” (as we call them) have been coming a 4-5 days after his heart worm meds. So in an effort to reduce the number of things changing we are keeping his diet the same and we will omit this medicine. With luck, making this change will prevent his issues and eventually allow us to transition him to a natural diet.

We also found a fairly local raw food provider. Fortunately, we have a retailer in our area.

http://abbyschoice.com/home.html

This product (along with some supplement) will be fairly high on my list when looking at raw options 🙂

[poodaddy]

Ahhh … what a juicy topic and it seems full of emotion – perhaps a story of multiple parts which will eventually be relevant to chewing bones will help others – gotta love real life stories. Context – Not a Vet or a Licensed Dog whatever but have been training dogs from basic obedience to field trials (for about 40+ years of studying mostly working with many breeds in dog training clubs – some of the best times in my life – some of the most diverse professionals who were in those clubs – try it if you don’t do it). Was finished with years of shelties and open jumping and wanted a gun dog and to be active in a gun club in upstate PA. So studied up on it, and got an awesome yellow lab, bred for hunting, waited a year for him from a professional duck hunter, and was soooo excited when the day came for me to drive 10 hours to pick him up at 7 weeks old (1995 in Pennsylvania). Carefully trained the puppy to six months in puppy obedience (of course) with the understanding this was going to be a gun dog and of course our favorite home companion too! This big strong consistent smart yeller was amazing in the field under the tutelage of a retiring yellow lab female for upland game and an unreal black for water dog training. Yes, …. for those who do not know, gun dogs in high end clubs mostly learn from retiring master gun dogs and the owners learn from the professional handlers. That dog grew up able to chew, crush, devour anything with jaws and teeth that were bred to handle it (and snapping the neck of a really big furious goose when needed). Teeth were shiny white, never came close to breaking a tooth that I could see, no periodontal disease, healthy male lab, as loving as could be around children/people, but was a focused working dog in the field with an unbelievable level of hearing, great sight and instincts that made me a better person, hunter and handler. Fast forward, many years later, we were suffering from the loss of this companion and we get two pups (14 lb at maturity) cockapoos because I am done with hair in the house and I want a canine companion in my office with me in my 12-15 hour days as a business owner. After the poo male’s first broken adult tooth from meaty bone chewing and the female’s bowel issues from eating “stuff” not even close to bone fragments, and a couple vet visits, gone was bone chewing other than VERY careful observed knawing on some softer meaty bones that are more trouble than they are worth due to the messiness – but the poos love them nonetheless. We were driven to address the anal gland secretion issues, the normal onset of periodontal disease at the 4 year mark and scale build up, bad breath, …

* We learned something REMARKABLE after our vet informed us we must make an appointment for two dogs to be anesthetized and get their teeth cleaned (expensive situation that carried some risk). Early in this year 2017, for different reasons, I embarked on a journey of raw food self-education primarily for anal gland issues and my growing nervousness of kibble, my reading about how commercial dog food is prepared, and my ignorance of what is in it (we were feeding them Blue Buffalo Company products) which may be high quality but I did not trust any kibble and the dogs were finicky with any kibble diet. Since March 2017, their diet (100% raw) has apparently changed their body chemistry so dramatically that the scale on their teeth started “slowly dissolving” after about 6 weeks. Their breath changed in about a week or two for the better. I could rake the scale off with the slightest pressure from a fingernail after a month. The follow on vet visit since then resulted in “anal gland secretion problem resolved” – saved $60/visit/60 days gone due to firm stools from ground bone in the raw diet, “periodontal disease problem – $1600/both dogs resolved” due to (1) the change in digestive chemistry according to our vet with my research concluding the same, (2) and combined with once a week brushing to keep removing the scale, “all digestive issues of periodic loose stools or strange eating habits – resolved as they love the raw food diet we manufacture. So, what is the relevance? The risks of raw meaty bones with a dog directly correlate to the breed, size, and situation. At least this is the conclusion from our real life experience, backed up by concurrence with our vet, and it is consistent with our friends’ experiences who have smaller poo-hybrids versus those with labs. Who is learning? The human for certain … and both the human and dog are benefiting. Booya for education, trial and error, doing things for the love of the dog, and persistence!

[poodaddy]

Hi Matt, ditto all the above. I am very new to forums in general (about two weeks ago) and noticed your post. First, one cannot over-research raw feeding – not possible in my opinion. It is a tremendous subject that I have been reading about and developing an Excel application for since March of this year. Started our two canine companions on a raw food diet on 18 Mar 2017 and have been refining it every month since; it is a Sunday morning labor of love I guess. So, … if you are into model development, raw food manufacturing AND applying the science/data that will produce a balanced and healthy diet, let me know. I could certainly use some collaboration since every “consultant” I reached out to seemed to run away from the project I guess thinking it was a threat which of course is silly in my view. Am about 90% with the model and nearing the output that will highlight the deficiencies of each micronutrient and vitamin against the daily standard needed for balanced and healthy meals. It is a lot more effort than I originally thought and that does not even address the actual work involved in menu prep, shopping, preparation, and cleanup for a 60-day supply of food for two dogs. The model also captures level of effort in hours, and price/cost of the menu. Manufacturing the food is a giant production operation that is a LOT OF WORK but we are passionate about the results it has achieved for our two cockapoos not to mention the vet bills avoided. Lots learned and a lot more to go.

[Jessica S]

Hi everyone!

The Basic Question: At what age does a puppy become an adult?

New to the forum, and new to raw feeding. I have really enjoyed browsing this forum – what a wealth of information! I transitioned my Pit Bull/Red Heeler/Rottweiler pup Leo to the raw diet about 3 weeks ago. He is SO into it..no surprise there, as he loves any and all food.

Leo is 11 months old. I’ve been feeding him based on the adult guidelines (2-3% of weight), but it occurred to me last week that maybe I should be feeding based on puppy guidelines (more like 10% of weight).

He looks very healthy – trim and fit. It does look as though he may have lost some weight since he made the transition to raw, but he still looks great.

What’s the consensus? Should I up his feeding amount a few percentages?

[a c]

After losing my 10 years old to lymphoma earlier this year, I really started to take a close look at the dog food. I have been feeding them primarily Hill’s Science Diet since they were puppies because that’s what vet has recommended.

I went to a local pet store, I was told Orijen is the best out there in addition to the raw diet. I bought Origen and small bags of Stella and Chewy, Primal, and Honest Kitchen to try. My the other 10 year old end up with pancreatitis. She was put on IV therapy, metronidazole, and Science Diet ID can food. Then, I was told to put her on low fat Purina One Smartblend Weight management kibbles.

It has been a struggle to find low fat, good ingredients, and no/low toxin dog food. It shouldn’t be this hard.

[Bobby dog]

Hello Atlas:
My pup was on an Rx food for a month for digestive issues. I transitioned her back to her regular diet with no issues.

I have used Rx diets for my cats as well. I made the mistake of taking one of them off early. His health issue returned not to mention he had to endure more visits to the Vet.

For training maybe single ingredient freeze dried treats would be an option. Some I feed are Nature’s Variety, Stella & Chewie, Grandma Lucy, Vital Essentials, Primal, and Stewarts.

If food is an issue you can never know for sure if an OTC food is free from a protein your dog might react to. OTC foods, even LID or sensitive recipes, might be similar in ingredients to Rx foods, however they are not guaranteed to be free of proteins not listed on the bag as Rx foods are. Completely breaking down the equipment and sanitizing after each batch of food to prevent cross contamination is costly and time consuming. This along with other procedures adds to the price of Rx foods. Here’s an article on the subject:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/150515a.aspx

If an elimination diet is ever recommended for your pup keep in mind you can also go the homemade route; your Vet would be able to advise you on a recipe. Some articles explaining elimination diets, food intolerances, and allergies:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2499

You can find these articles on “DVM360” the links won’t post just copy and paste the titles in their search:
“The finer points of food elimination trials: A veterinary nutritionist’s take”
“Choosing the right elimination diet for food allergic cases”

I suggest keeping an open mind. I found this site several years ago because my dog had terrible skin and coat issues. I assumed it was his diet, not the case. He’s all healed up and the only maintenance he needs is weekly baths (monthly in the winter) with a shampoo that has specific ingredients, nothing else, just baths. I did move onto other food choices, however I feed him everything under the sun with no issues. Kibble, canned, commercial raw, balanced homemade, grains, grain free, fruits, veggies, common meat proteins, I don’t even transition to new foods. Good luck! 😉

[Susan]

Hi,
I posted a post the other day but it’s not here now??.. Yes go back to just feeding the Natural Balance kibble, what meat protein is in the NB formula he’s eating??
When I rescued Patch he had just turned 4yrs old, I didn’t know what he could eat & what he couldn’t eat & in the end that’s why his 4th vet put him on another vet diet that finally worked & firmed up poos but caused itchy smelly yeasty paws & skin, cause he cant eat Chicken his stomach & bowel is OK eating chicken but he gest Yeasty itchy paw & skin & carrots cause yeasty, itchy, smelly ears, you know Atlas does well on the Natural Balance formula & you know he can eat Chicken & Potatoes so that’s a pretty good start, so he Defently has food intolerances, if his gut was un healthy then he’d be like Patch was when I first rescued him, no matter what he ate he do OK poo’s then he was doing poos with jelly on them or like a condom over the poo (Food Sensitivities), then he was doing sloppy yellow poos (S.I.B.O) that smelt awful, that’s how a “GOOD” vet knows if the dog has either S.I.B.O, IBD, EPI, Food Intolerances…..when their poos are yellow it’s their small bowel that’s not working properly…Patches new vet said lets try the vet diet Eukanuba Intestinal low residue formula it wasthe only vet diet Patchhadn’t tried & finally he was doing smaller firm poo’s & only 2 or 3 poos a day then his vet wanted him to stay on the Eukanuba Intestinal vet diet for 9-12months to let his stomach & bowel heal as he probably has been doing sloppy awful poos most of his life, that’s why he ended up at a pound I’d say, his owner just didnt care, probably when Patch was Atlas age his owner didnt bother trying to work out what was wrong with him & just kept feeding him ingredients he was sensitive too & that has now caused IBD one of Patches vet said…..

I would just feed the Natural Balance for 1 month NO Kefir as this could have caused the
in-balance in his stomach & bowel, S.I.B.O, this is why you only add 1 new food or supplement at 1 time maybe every 1-2 weeks then you know 100% it’s the new food or supplement you’ve added to diet causing sloppy/diarrhea poo’s…
Look at the ingredient list in the “Kirkland Nature’s Domain” I would start doing an Elimination Food Diet start adding peas to his cooked meal start off slowly under 1/4 of a cup for 2 days then increase the amount of peas if he doesn’t have sloppy poos diarrhea in the 2 weeks chances are he can eat peas, then I would stop the peas & start adding boiled peeled Sweet Potato also for treats start making jerky treats, you know he can eat chicken so make Chicken Jerky, if he can eat sweet potato make sweet potato jerky as well or I was making Pork & beef rissoles, I was buying very lean grounded pork mince or beef mince adding 1 whisked egg & 1 teaspoon chopped parsley mixing all together & making small Pork rissoles balls or making separate beef rissoles, I’d foil lined a baking tray & bake them in the oven, they only took about 10 mins on 1 side then half way I would drain any fat & water & turn the rissoles over then cook another 10mins after you cool the rissoles I freeze, then break up a few rissoles & give as treats or I mashed a few rissole balls with some boiled sweet potato for lunch….
It does take time doing an elimination food diet but in the end you will know 100% what he can & cant eat…

The only other thing you can do is if you see a vet ask the vet can he write you a repeat script for some “Metronidazole” a few months worth to keep at home so if Atlas becomes unwell again or when you start introducing a new kibble you put Atlas on the Metronidazole tablets for 2 weeks while intoducing the new kibble, a few dogs in the Canine IBD group see IBD Specialist & this is what their vet specialist has told them to do, same as Patch in the end I had to so I could change his vet diet, I couldn’t handle him smelly & scratching from the chicken in the vet diet, I’d start him on a new kibble he’d be doing really well, good poos then around 2 & 1/2 months later his poos went yuk & soft again, the vet didn’t know what was wrong was his gut bacteria going out of balance too much bad bacteria again?? vet couldnt work out what was happening was it food sensitivities/intolerances as they can take anywhere from 1 day to react up to 6 weeks to start reacting, but this was 2 months later, this is why your better off starting an elimination food trial & start with adding the ingredients in the Kirkland Turkey & Sweet Potato formula or a kibble you want to feed, I’d start with adding boiled Peas, then Sweet Potatoes, blueberries as treats add to his cooked meal & see how he goes, it will be 3 steps forward 2 steps backwards in the beginning, so make sure you keep a diary, I always look back on Patches diarys when I need to rememeber something……
Patch was doing really really well most of 2016 while eating the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb kibble & having a cooked meal Pork Rissoles & sweet potatoes he was drinking heaps of water maybe 2-3 times a week, vet did all these test they showed nothing was wrong, so vet said it could be pain related so I had introduced “Canidae Pure Wild Boar” then he started whinging after 2months of introducing the Canidae, his poos were bigger & softer on the Canidae in the beginning but got better as the weeks went by plus he was eating TOTW for his bigger meals breakfast & 1st dinner, Canidae was givin for Lunch & a second dinner the Canidae were smaller meals, he was geeting his pain right side Stomach/Pancreas area I thought the Canidae was too high in Kcals it was over 400 Kcals per cup this has happened before with another kibble so I started to introduced a new kibble Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Digestion Lamb then his poos went real sloppy again & smelly he had been eating the same kibbles all Spring & Summer TOTW Canidae no poo problems until the I added the Purina Digestion, Sensitive Stomach cause Patches pain right side, Patches American vet Sue had recommendd I try Purina months before so this is why I tried the Purina, the vet Sue blammed environment allergies & said his immune system has gone into over drive from his allergies & he’s reacting but I think it was more from when I started to add Purina Sensitive Stomach kibble to his diet it had Barley in it, I dont think he does well when the kibble has barley in it or he had an imbalance in the bowel S.I.B.O & they get abnormal amounts bacterica accumulate in the small bowel making their poos go yuk again, something he was eating put his gut/bowel floria out of wack again & causes too much bad bacteria then he starts doing very sloppy poos again, that’s what happens with Small Intestinal Bowel Overgrowth (S.I.B.O) it happens in young dogs, they can’t put on any weight they stop growing, maybe Atlas has a few Intestinal problems, he has his Food Sensitivities & he might get SIBO as well & the Kefir set off the SIBO again, Metronidazole gets rid of the S.I.B.O & then the gut/bowel is balanced again…..

It’s very hard working out your dog what agrees with him & what doesn’t, I’ve learnt more thru people in canine IBD groups who have been thru all this, there’s a good small F/B group called ” Irritable Bowel Disease & G.I Related Diseases In Dogs UK” group on Face Book, the Amercan Canine IBD group the lady who runs it just pops in & tells everyone to go & see your vet & the poor people have been & seen their vets & they still have no answers what’s wrong with their por dog, I’m noticing over the years there’s a few bad vets in America, I dont think a vet in America has to study as long as an Australian or UK vet does?? cause Patches vet Sue is American & she said when she came to Australia in the late 80’s she had to do another 2 years study to work as a vet in Australia & also in Australia vets have to follow up with yearly courses… Patches really good 2nd vet Simon he did Patches Endoscope & Biopsies, he’s very busy & very hard to see he’s always operating etc he knows heaps about the stomach/bowel, he’s the vet that isnt really into giving dogs PRObiotics to dogs, he said there’s no real scientific proof about PRObiotic work in dogs, but if you think your seeing an improvement he said then give Patch the Probiotics but make sure it’s a dog probiotic that are stored in the fridge, “Protexin Soluble”, I said Probiotics seem to make Patch feel sick, he starts his mouth licking & swollowing but only some days this would happen, then Simon said when it comes to PREbiotics he said yes he has found Prebiotics did help & work on some of the dogs he’s treated… I never saw any real improvement with Patch but I did when he was on “NAS, Digestavite Plus” Powder, its a dog prebiotic with vitamins that balances raw or cooked meals he was eating, I went thru a Naturopath with Patchto put him on a raw diet in te end before I found the TOTW & Canidae kibbles, his vet referred Patch to a Holistic Vet but shewas very expensive $180 a hour, so I saw a Animal Naturopath Nutritionist instead, she cost $60 a hour, she makes the “Natural Animal Solutions” products, the Digestavite Plus Powder has Glutimine, Inulin, Spinach leaf powder, Parsley leaf, Beetroot powder, Broccoli, Green Tea, Grapeseed extract, Ginger, Slipperly Elm, Stem Bark, Milk Thistle, Acacia Powder, then Vitamin B1, B2 B3, B5 B12,D3, Patches poos were beautiful & firm when he has the Digestavite Plus Pawder over his cooked & raw meals….
You can ask the vet about weekly Vitamin B12 injections, the B12 really helps dogs that keep having diarrhea slopping poos..
Just see how Atlas goes just eating the Natural Balance for 1 month then introduce 1 new food to his diet nothing else. Good-Luck he’s your special boy.. I’m rescueing another dog soon, Patch is turning 9yrs old, 20th November…I’m going to make sure she does NOT have any Allergies or Stomach/Bowel problems. sorry about the long posts but there’s too much information to leave out..

[Susan]

Hi Panya,
I can’t stop laughting, Patch does the same his farts scare him when he’s sleeping & he farts he jumps up & runs off my bed lol when his farts are loud, he’s the same he doesn’t fart now he’s eating the right diet….
Go on Face Book & in the “Search” bar put “Canine Pancreatitis Support Group” join then look on your left & click on “Files” then click on first link “Low Fat Foods” you’ll see all low fat dry & wet tin foods, scroll down look at the wet canned low fat foods, I would be feeding a low fat wet tin food instead of dry kibble or feed low fat wet tin for 1 meal & dry low fat kibble for other meal…. Wet canned or cooked diet is heaps better for dogs who have suffered with Pancreatitis as kibble is harder to digest & is higher in carbs, the fat% has been converted in all these wet tin formula’s, the fat % is to your right, the fat % in raw & wet canned food hasn’t been converted to dry matter (Kibble)….Hills convert their fat % in all their vet diets but the other vet diets brands are not converted, so stay around 1-3% fat in wet tin foods when looking to buy any…
If you still want to feed a dry kibble look at “Canidae” Pure Meadow Senior, it’s low in Fat at 10.80% max, very easy to digest & has all the supplements for an aging dog…
always email the pet food companies & get the accurate max fat % & protein % in wet & dry food your thinking of feeding. I’ve already emailed Canidae & got the fat % in the Pure Meadow Senior, it’s a really good kibble it has No Prebiotic “Chicory Root” you will see a big improvement in your dogs skin coat & health while eating te Canidae Pure Meadow Senior formula there’s also Pure Resolve weight management but teh Senior has all te supplements to a senior dog & te fat % is the same..
Here’s Canidae’s site scroll down a bit & click on “VIEW ALL” on your left, click on page 3 has the Pure Meadow Senior & Page 5 has the Canidae All Life Stages Platinum Less Active kibble its low fat easying to digest & good for dogs with Pancreatitis. https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products

[LuAnn T]

I nominate Northwest Naturals frozen raw complete diet 5 lb roll dog food in chicken and turkey varieties. You have a review of this dog food on your site with a 5 star enthusiastically recommended note. I have fed it for over a year and my dogs are much improved in health and agility because of the change. Even their teeth don’t have the plaque build up. My Aussie is 13 and had bad hips but now runs like a 2 year old, and a German Shepherd which is a breed with hip concerns and she is active at 8 years of age and excellent health.

Thanks for the reviews!
LuAnn T

[anonymous]

Below is an excerpt from http://animaldentalspecialist.com/safe-and-appropriate-chew-toys-for-dogs/
Click on link for full article. Hope this helps.

Fractured pet teeth are one of the more common dental problems encountered by veterinary dentists. Broken teeth, more often than not, have exposed pulp tissues that subsequently become infected.  Just like for humans, apical infection (apical periodontitis, dental “abscesses”) will occur in a matter of time. They are painful and cause exposure of the body to chronic bacteria infusion and inflammation. In most cases, the problem is caused by dogs being allowed to chew on objects that are just too hard for their teeth. These objects may actually be harder than the teeth.  It is important to remember the evolutionary function of carnivores…they are meat eaters. The function of carnivore oral behavior is to grasp, pull and hold prey. This is followed by cutting and tearing meat before crushing and gulping. Carnivore teeth are not designed to chew bones or other objects harder than the teeth.  Starving wild animals often have only bones to eat, however, they also break their teeth, which places them at a survival disadvantage (survival of the fittest). Wild carnivores that do eat bones are usually doing so from freshly killed prey.  Fresh bones are softer, however, they still can lead to traumatized and fracture teeth. Dental treats and chew objects should be considered as only part of preventative dental health care (please refer to information on dental diets, chews and antiseptics).  In conjunction with daily tooth brushing, dental diets and regular professional cleanings, toys and treats can play an important part of oral health care maintenance.
Strictly avoid bones (cooked or uncooked), cow hoofs, pig ears, hard & thick rawhides, plastic or nylon bones, and large ice cubes. Tennis balls and other objects with abrasive surfaces should also be avoided as these have a sandpaper-like effect on tooth structure that damages and may expose the pulp. The flatter, softer rawhide chews have been shown to be safe and effective in reducing the rate of plaque accumulation. C.E.T. Hextra rawhide chews contain Chlorhexidine which enhances their effectiveness.
When trying to select safe chew objects for your pet, there are two good approaches:
General rules of thumb.
Use products approved by the Veterinary Oral Health Council (VOHC)
A. Rules of Thumb
You want to be able to indent the surface with your finger nail.  Surface has some “give” to it.
“Knee Cap Rule”: If you hit your self in the knee with the object and it hurts, it’s probably too hard/heavy for your dog.
“Hammer Rule”: If you can drive a nail with the product, don’t allow your dog to chew on it.
Also avoid objects with abrasive surfaces like Tennis Balls and Frisbees.
If you cannot flex or break the product with your bare hands, it’s probably best to avoid it.
Please take note: you should always monitor your pet when they are chewing on anything.  Verify they’re not gagging, trying to ingest too much at one time or attempting to eat an inedible product.
B. VOHC approved products
Although not all safe products have VOHC approval, using products with the VOHC seal of acceptance is recommended as these products have successfully met pre-set requirements for veterinary dental efficacy and safety.  A complete list of VOHC approved products can be accessed at http://www.vohc.org.

[haleycookie]

All of those things are such extreme circumstances they make me laugh. Do you know all the things I’ve seen dogs chew on and eat that haven’t hurt them that are far less digestible than a bone? When a responsible dog owner watches their dog and only allows certain amounts of time with a raw bone theyre will rarely be any negative corcumstances. I know way to many dogs that eats raw bones of all kinds of animals on a daily basis that are included in raw diets. Bones are necessary in raw diets especially. Dogs digestive tract, teeth, stomach, and esophagus are still that of a wolf. Wolves eat small bones whole, break them with their teeth, and shatter them to pieces and eat them. I’m not concerned with leaving my dog or any dog UNDER SUPERVISION with a raw bone. And neither should anyone else.