[aimee]

Hi Andrea,

Here is an article on persistent licking http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(11)00122-5/fulltext?mobileUi=0

From that article it looks like the licking is a non specific GI sign. I’m pretty sure I read the full text of that article at one time and the treatment trialed was a veterinary prescription low fat limited ingredient diet along with an antacid.

Doing a well done food trial as one would do to rule out food “allergy” is something you might want to discuss with your vet.

[aimee]

Hi Chris,

I think the key to flea control in a challenging environment is to focus your efforts on shutting down flea replication and not on killing adult fleas. The products geared to killing adult fleas without addressing reproduction can fail because some fleas always seem to survive to reproduce so the cycle continues.

A very effective option is to administer lufeneron to all the dogs and cats in the home.
http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol10Iss3/Vol10%20Iss3%20Dryden.pdf

If the above isn’t an option I think a professional application of Fleabusters borate powder is the next best thing. You can apply it yourself but I think a professional application may be more effective. The company guarantees their product.

For adulticide I’d follow your vets advice. I’ve heard in challenging environments some products need to be given more frequently than the label directions specify. An option to consider would be Bravecto which reports good control for up to 90 days after one oral dose.

If my finances were limited and I had to choose between using an adulticide or shutting down reproduction I’d choose targeting reproduction. The adult fleas can be dealt with by less costly options like combing them off or bathing.

[aimee]

Hi S.B.

What size is your cup? If you are using an eight ounce measuring cup 1/2 cup or even 3/4 cup three times a day is feeding under the feeding guidelines from the company.

[aimee]

Hi Erin,

It is heartbreaking when our treasured companions fall ill. When all the lymph nodes are enlarged their can be several causes but a big one to rule in or out is lymphosarcoma. This is often done by removing a sample from several nodes and sending it to the pathologist.

If lymphoma is the diagnosis chemotherapy is available and while sometimes lifesaving most often is life extending. You may want to consult a cancer specialist

[aimee]

Hi Becca.

The only real definitive test for pancreatitis is biopsy of the pancreas. The most specific blood test is the canine specific pancreatic lipase that is run by Texas GI lab, Spec cPL. Idexx lab also has the ability to run this test. But even that test is not specific for pancreatitis. If the test is negative ( a low number) it is very likely that your dog does not have pancreatitis. If the test comes back elevated.. your dog may have pancreatitis. The higher the number the more likely the pancreas is involved. But it isn’t 100% … you can have a high number and a normal pancreas or a low number and pancreatitis. The Snap test is a test by Idexx. If the spec CPL level is low the test is “neg” and if the value is above 200 (?) the test is positive. But you can have a spec cPL above 200 and not have pancreatitis. So a “pos” Snap test is not definitive for pancreatitis Definitively diagnosing pancreatitis is one of the hardest diagnosis to make.

[aimee]

Hi Jenn H,
Food choice is often an emotional issue. It is easy to be swayed by an ingredient list and a human grade designation. But to reinforce what Pitlove said, the best ingredients can make the worst food.

My concern with THK goes beyond their posted nutrient analysis not meeting AAFCO, that is only a symptom of a much larger problem. The problem is that the company doesn’t understand basic nutritional principles: They don’t understand how processing affects nutrient bioavailibility, nor how to do basic nutrient calculations. These basic things are vital to producing a food that is complete and balanced as they claim their food is.

I don’t feel the food is unsafe but I do feel it is highly overpriced and should only be used intermittently and not relied upon as a main source of nutrition JMO.

C4D You wrote: “THK only came in slightly low from those guidelines you mentioned, and from the AAFCO guidelines, they were in compliance and exceeded the minimum standards. I did not check every formula.”

When you checked formulas did you correct for energy density? I’ll give you an example I went to their site and pulled up the first NA listed, Embark and started scanning from the top down. The first nutrient that stands out as suspect is methionine-cystine. THK reports a DM of .59% AAFCO requires 0.53%. So that looks adequate but AAFCO requires a energy density calculation for any diet over 3500 kcals.kg and this diet is 4617 kcals/kg. After factoring in the correction factor of 1.32 the min methionine-cystine to meet AAFCO should be .7%. THK’s reported value falls short of AAFCO min. NRC min for gestation lactation is .62% for a 4000kcal/kg diet so it falls short of NRC as well. Other nutrients are obviously way too low. The Vit E level in Keen is reported as 23.45 IU/kg. AAFCO min is 50 IU/kg. After correcting for energy density the min AAFCO requirement is 66 IU/kg. THK is about 1/3 of AAFCO min requirement.

If you use the food intermittently there shouldn’t be a problem. I just choose not to support companies that don’t understand such basic concepts. If they can’t get something as basic as grade school math right it makes me concerned that they can’t get the complicated stuff right either.

[aimee]

Hi C4D,

In regards to Dave’s restricted diet the as fed percentage of .17% phos is equivalent to 1478mg/1000 kcals which is above AAFCO min Phos level. They report Phos dry matter as .81% which calculates out to 1753 mg/1000kcals. If you use their guaranteed max phos level of .22% the level is 1913mg/1000kcals. All of these levels are above AAFCO and would not be suitable for a renal patient needing restriction.

To be in line with other renal diets the company’s food would have to be at the low end of their min/max GA but their average as fed and dry matter levels are not that low. It isn’t a diet I’d use for a dog needing restriction.

A

[aimee]

Hi Micheal and Diane,

The phosphorus content of all these foods mentioned are far above what would be desired for a kidney patient and are not what would be considered low phosphorus foods. The phos level on a percentage basis for a kidney diet would be about .3% The Lotus senior diet at 0.5 % would be closest but as I said any OTC food will be higher than what is desired for a dog that needs phos restriction.

[aimee]

Hi Diane,

If you need a low phosphorus food for your dog’s stage of kidney disease all of the foods sold in stores OTC will be higher than what is desired. AAFCO requires 1400 mg/1000 kcals and kidney diet are formulated with levels of about 1/2 that.

Your options are to use a therapeutic food formulated for kidney disease sold only under vet supervision or to home cook

[aimee]

I agree Pitlove,

Great Post!

[aimee]

Sounds like this incident will soon be behind you! Since the product was deodorized many of the problematic compounds were removed which would decrease the toxicity exposure.

[aimee]

Hi Suzanne,

Have you called your regular veterinarian for advice?

One thing that stuck me in regards to the garlic ingestion is that you said the product is odorless/ tasteless. It is the compounds in garlic that are responsible for odor and taste that cause problems in dogs. If this version was “deodorized” the toxicity level may be decreased.

[aimee]

Hi Dr. Carol,

Dr Hart at UC Davis did an extensive survey on the topic which you can find summarized here:

http://drsophiayin dot com/blog/entry/coprophagia-the-scoop-on-poop-eating-in-dogs

Since you are a vet maybe you can get the full paper and see if there is more detail in it than is in the summary.

[aimee]

Hi Bobby D.

I’ve read that if sensitized, the response following reexposure is within hours but up to 14 days. “Symptoms can appear within an hour of eating the offending allergen, but may be delayed with a peak in clinical signs noted to be up to 14 days in one study.”

www dot lsu dot edu/vetmed/veterinary_hospital/services/dermatology/ce_lectures/food_allergy.php

When doing an elimination diet home cooking with one protein source and one carb source that your dog hadn’t previously been exposed to is the “Gold Standard. If pursing that do not buy ground meats as the grinders are often not well cleaned and there could be cross contamination. You need to buy large cuts and grind yourself.

If using commercial foods, use food from the vet office that have been made specifically for this purpose. They are costly as you are paying for extensive quality controls ( ingredient “fingerprinting” PCR analysis, complete breakdown and cleaning of all equipment and closing the plant to any ingredients except those in the diet being made) to ensure no cross contamination. Limited ingredient diets from retail sources are often cross contaminated with other proteins which will interfere with your results.

IMO a skin reaction 6 weeks out is less likely to be a hypersensitivity unless a newly developed one and if related to the diet may have to do more with the full nutrient profile not supporting skin health.

I know when I’ve trialed other foods it is usually 6-8 weeks before I note problems with Brooke’s skin and coat( dry flakes, dullness, and increased shedding)

Pitlove: Glad to here your dog is doing well. Is the plan to introduce each ingredient separately before changing the diet completely? For example add potato for several weeks and if all well then test the variety of fish in the food you are considering.

[aimee]

Skin disease certainly is frustrating…sometimes never cured, only managed and flares are understandably upsetting.

Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi Tabby,

In case this is directed to me as I have posted in this thread i want to clarify that I didn’t say that an anti yeast dog diet should be low fat. I did say that the yeast on a dog’s skin are “fat loving” but this doesn’t mean a high fat diet “feeds the yeast” and a low fat diet is recommended.

The yeast feed off of skin oils at the surface.. far removed from dietary fat. The “diet is very rarely involved in the causation or treatment of yeast infection of the skin”. Diet only factors into a yeasty dog if it is grossly unbalanced or if the dog reacts to an ingredient in the diet resulting in an adverse food reaction that changes the skin.

As to what constitutes a high fat in diets it is kind of relative to the animal and it’s needs. But in general for myself I consider anything at or above 40% of calories fed as fat to be high fat for a dog. This is equivalent to ~ 20% fat on a Dry Matter basis

[aimee]

Hi Pitlove,

I feed some Primal but I do lightly cook it as it is not HPP except for the poultry product. Last time I checked as I recall they consult with a PhD nutritionist… not a veterinary nutritionist.

They haven’t feed trialed the diets and i don’t know if the nutritional information they post is based off of lab analysis or computer paper analysis.

As far as raw food companies goes I think it is one of the relatively better ones…but I do cook the food and only use it as a topper and not as a complete diet.

[aimee]

Hi Kelly,

You can find veterinary nutritionists through their website acvn dot org. But most won’t do raw diets and even fewer a raw diet for a puppy. If you want to go that route I’d suggest trying Dr Bartges

The reason most won’t, I think, is two fold.. one the pathogen exposure and two the availability of nutrients contained in raw meaty bones isn’t quantified. Providing calcium at just the right range for a large breed pup becomes an unknown if calcium absorption from these sources isn’t known.

Some time ago I read an article on a pup that had severe calcium depletion on a home made raw diet yet there was plenty of bone in the gut.. In other words the calcium from the bone that was being fed wasn’t being absorbed.

So I wonder if a vet nutritionist who would formulate for a pup would skip the bone and use a Ca source whose availability is known.

The commercial raw foods you mention may be all life stage formula’s meaning they meet the criteria for puppies and then by default for adults.

The only company I know of that made a raw that went through feeding trials and is HPP and consults with a vet nutritionist is Natures Variety. The current formula haven’t been through feeding trials but carry a feeding trial statement by way of AAFCO’s family rule.

Like pitlove, I too have seen horrible results from a raw food diet on the growth of a puppy. The owner was an experienced raw food feeder for her past adult dogs and this was the first pup she raised on raw. The dog was anemic, small for its breed and had to have orthopedic surgery at a young age. So sad….After having seen this first hand it is why I’m uneasy with your plan.

[aimee]

Hi Kelly P,

Your plan makes me very nervous. Have you consulted with a veterinary nutritionist? There are a few that will do raw diets and even fewer yet willing to do a raw diet for a growing large breed puppy. It i s very tricky… adult dogs are much more flexible from a nutritional standpoint.

If you want to do raw from puppyhood I’d recommend a commercial raw that has passed feeding trials for growth and is high pressure pasteurized.

[aimee]

I never felt safe with leaving my dogs as pups with a “puppy” kong.. I always got the adult kong in the size they used as adults

[aimee]

Hi John H,

I’ve ordered from Dr’s Foster Smith ( but not meds) and been very happy. Pet Meds makes me uneasy as I’ve seen pics whereby they don’t sell drugs in the original packaging. I think they do this to bypass the manufacturers security measures. Some manufacturers only sell to vets so goods from Pet Meds may be what are called “grey market” goods. I think as Foster and Smith are vets they can buy direct.

I think some vets may be uneasy with scripts because of the whole “grey market” goods problem.

[aimee]

Hi Suzanne,

Yeah a hurdle crossed! Yes….. unfortunately I’ve been to the urine “rodeo” more times than I’d like. Does she still have signs of frequent urination or has than subsided?

[aimee]

Hi Peggy,

If the dogs are gaining weight than they need to take in fewer calories or exercise more.

I’ll run a few calculations.

For weight loss for Ladybug I calculate about 700 kcals/day. That means any individual dog may need 350-1050 kcals / day to achieve about 1 % body weight loss a week.

The variety pets food canned has on average 450 kcals/can so you are feeding 225-335 kcals in the am meal from that and the 1/2 cup kibble I’m guessing is adding about 200 kcals I can’t find calorie info on that. Together 425-535 kcals. in the am meal.

At night another 200 kcals from the kibble and again I can’t find caloric info on the tubs but I’m going to guess 70 kcals if 1 tub fed so ~270 kcals if feeding 1 tub with the 1/2 cup kibble.

Total kcals/day 695-805 kcals. Some dogs may lose on that amount but for others that is about double the amount needed for them to lose weight. So it could be that Ladybug is in that group in which case you really need to move to a food formulated for weight loss.

You can either cut calories or increase exercise. Since it is hard for you to increase exercise you’ll need to cut calories. Using the current food though will be even a smaller volume and already your dog is having satiety issues. So in order to feed more volume you need to cut back on the fat content in the foods you are feeding.

For example if you wanted to feed ~600 kcals a day and used lower fat foods you could feed 3/4 cup dry am and pm with 1/4 can am and pm. (12 oz can) Soaking the kibble prior to feeding adds filler…. volume without calories.

Additionally, I recommend that you weigh the foods instead of estimating and measuring volume.

Once on the new diet foods weigh your pets every week and if they are not losing then you need to drop calories by another 20 % and reevaluate again.

Good Luck!

[aimee]

Hi Lovemypuppy,

There are various ways to calculate calorie needs and none of them are particularly accurate in regards to any one dog. After arriving at the number nutritionists will say that any individual dog can deviate 50% in either direction from that number. So if I calculate 500 kcals a day that means some dogs may require only 250 kcals a day and others 750 kcals.

Feed to body condition, calculate the calories that your dog requires and then if switching between foods feed on a caloric basis.

I have found that feeding calculators for raw diets are usually on the low end. I think that is so it makes the diet look more affordable than it actually is.

I took a look at Natures Variety calculator and plugged in some info and I agree the number of ounces they recommend didn’t add up to the number of kcals recommended. You may want to contact the company about that. The calculator told me to feed 9.5 ounces and 590 calories but 9.5 ounces fell far short of 590 calories using their caloric data.

Inked Marie.. It never made sense to me to say feed 2-3% body weight as the number of calories/ kg vary greatly. For example for Primal pork they report 35 kcals/ounce. Using the 2-3% rule i would feed between 6-9 oz a day for my dog or ~210-315 kcals. But if i used 6-9 ounces of their beef formula 384-576 kcals. Nearly a 2 fold difference.

[aimee]

Hi Suzanne,

I know that having a needle entering the bladder is cause for concern and worry. I ‘ve had it done multiple times to multiple dogs… never gets easier ….I always worry. I’m just saying I think I understand why your vet wants it. I know you just recently had it done and nothing grew. It was also done fairly close to having been on antibiotics in which case you can get a false negative. This means that there is no growth but that there is an infection. So as I see it your vet wants to double check. If you dog never had signs of a problem ( the frequent urinations with small amounts) your vet may have made different recommendations.

I do remember with Brooke her first followups were with the needle in the bladder. Then I used to take a chance on culturing a clean catch. I’d boil water in a plastic tray in the microwave.. dump it and air dried then catch a mid stream urine sample and transfer to a sterile container. As long as that came back negative we’d be good… if it came back with bacterial growth than I was to follow up with the needle test. Thankfully she had negative cultures that way and she didn’t have to have more needles.

The problem is that female puppies get vaginitis and the signs are the same as for a UTI. The only way to figure out where the problem is is with the needle urine test compared to a caught sample. My previous lab as a puppy had a lot of problems with frequent urination and had multiple urine tests and multiple cultures all negative.. it was so frustrating! She had a vaginal scoping as well …then her signs suddenly increased and I think it was her third culture that grew out bacteria.. she was treated and then everything resolved. I don’t know if she had a UTI all along or if she had vaginitis that then became a UTI.. UGH But I was sure glad when it resolved. I felt so bad for my baby as I’m sure you do for yours

I hope this test answers the question your vet is trying to answer and that you can close this chapter in her life.

[aimee]

You are welcome Linda! Happy training!

[aimee]

Hi Suzanne,

I’d agree that struvite crystals are not a concern if there isn’t any infection. I see your vet as being through…. wants to confirm that there is no ongoing infection before ignoring as initially you reported symptoms consistent with infection and prior to antibiotics it wasn’t confirmed if infection was present or not.

I don’t see your vet as putting your dog through this test for nothing. My own dog had a UTI at a young age. It was confirmed by culture prior to any antibiotics. I remember getting her urine cultured multiple times post treatment to monitor for recurrence. I was always relieved what they came back negative and never considered the negative result as an unnecessary test.

[aimee]

Hi Linda,

You can find information to guide you in the USDA nutrient database. For example, while they don’t list freeze dried liver, there is an entry for raw liver. The Ca is reported as 5 mg/135 kcals which is 37 mg/1000kcals. For growth the safe upper limit as reported by NRC for Ca is 4500mg/1000kcals. In comparison then you can see that liver isn’t a high calcium food. However you may want to limit how much liver you use for other reasons.

For cheese… mozzarella they report 505 mg for 300 kcals= 1683mg/1000kcals So from a calcium standpoint cheese is fine to use as well.

It is recommended not to exceed ~10% of the total daily caloric amount from unbalanced sources. I have used a different complete and balanced food with an appropriate Ca amount as treats for training and I have placed kibble into a plastic zip lock and let it stay overnight in the fridge with a few slices of hot dog in the bag… kibble with a kick of flavor.

Good luck with your pup!

[aimee]

Hi crazy4cats,

I’d agree that if the diet is formulated to meet AAFCO then levels shouldn’t be toxic. Primal makes products that are formulated to meet and others that are for supplemental feeding.

Excessive nutrients was the only reason I could think of as to why the OP vet was “horrified”.

[aimee]

Hi Margie,

Liver fed in excess can lead to toxicity of some nutrients. You can’t know from the ingredient list how much liver is present which could be why your vet is concerned. Ask the company for a full nutrient analysis of the food and then have your vet look at it to see if it is appropriate for your dog.

[aimee]

Hi K.C.

Depending on the degree of the medical concerns you may need to home cook to manage both concerns. Any “over the counter” food will have a phos level higher then recommended for kidney insufficiency. Has your vet looked at the other companies kidney diets to see if they are appropriate? Hills G/D could be an option. It is geared for early kidney insufficiency but has a lower fat level than the K/D formula. (I’ assuming your dog was on K/D and not RD as R/D is a food with low fat high protein for weight loss.) Iams’ renal is higher protein than G/D but also lower fat. Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi sascha k,

The difference between what veterinarians recommend and food ratings sites such as this one occurs because different criteria are valued. Ratings sites usually focus on the ingredient panel and use that to rate the diet. Veterinary nutritionists and PhD nutritionists overwhelmingly report that you can not tell anything about he quality of the diet by looking at an ingredient list.

The following quotes are from Dr. Remillard a board certified veterinary nutritionist taken from her site petdiets dot com

“Sorry. The ingredients list cannot and should not be used to assess the quality of a dog food. Please disregard the self proclaiming pundits who say you can. It simply cannot be done. In fact AAFCO and FDA guard against it.”

and “I recommend pet food brands that have high quality control procedures and monitoring in place. A review of the ingredient list on a pet food product is not a good way to evaluate or rank a pet food regardless of how hard or detailed some people have tried to be. The pet food bag information lacks the necessary information needed to fully and accurately evaluate pet food quality.”

Veterinary nutritionists ask questions like “Does the company employ a veterinary or PhD nutritionist? Who formulated the diet? Is a nutrient analysis available? What is the digestibility of the diet? What quality control is being used? Can the company answer basic nutritional questions correctly? Does the company invest in nutritional research? Is the marketing material appropriate? …..

You can find information on how nutritionists would recommend you to evaluate diet at wsava dot org/nutrition-toolkit Scroll down to the bottom and you’ll find the link to selecting the best food for your pet.

Sadly what I have found is that foods that are rated 5 star are often made by “marketing companies” by that I mean the company has little to no knowledge of nutrition but know how to make a food that people will buy. The founder of Blue Buffalo reports he got into dog food manufacturing because “ “Slap on a good label, come up with a slogan, and off you go,…..There were already a lot of smoke and mirrors in how pet food was advertised, and that was the sort of stuff we were good at.”

When you look at companies from a perspective of nutritional knowledge/ ingredient testing/ quality control which are the criteria veterinary nutritionists are using to measure a food’s quality a whole different perspective is gained.

So when a veterinary nutritionist was asked, “I have a 20 week old black lab. What is the best food to feed him?” Dr Remillard answered “I would suggest a Large breed growth food from either Purina, Hill’s or Royal Canin given there are no regulatory requirements for such a food but each of these companies have done and continue to do original research on preventing developmental bone disease in large breed dogs.”

General practice veterinarians often take recommendations from the specialists in their respective fields and so likely will recommend the foods that the specialists recommend.

Hope this helps to explain why veterinarians recommend the foods they do.

Dr Remillard’s website is petdiets dot com and there is question and answer forum you might find helpful. Dr Weeth has a blog at weethnutrtition dot wordpress dot com that has several general articles on food evaluation.

[aimee]

Awesome post Bobby dog!!!

Love Love Love the link from healthyskin4dogs. What a goldmine of accurate information to combat all the myth perpetuated about yeast dermatitis! Everyone with any questions should read it

I especially love the cartoon on the page regarding fact checking internet information!

[aimee]

Hi Brenda,

The homemade diet you are proposing is very unbalanced. Also diet is very rarely involved in the causation or treatment of yeast infection of the skin so a diet change is very often not needed. Unfortunately there is a common misunderstanding regarding diet and yeast. Lower carb diets have been recommended to control symptoms of Candida yeast overgrowth in the intestine of people. This information has been misapplied to the treatment of a dog’s yeast infection, but the yeast infection of the dog’s skin is completely different problem. The yeast itself is different. Yeast in the human intestines is usually, Candida a carbohydrate loving yeast. The yeast on a dog’s skin is nearly always Malassezia which is a fat loving yeast. An oatmeal shampoo won’t specifically address yeast but it won’t feed them either.

Here is an article that addresses treatment of yeast infections in dogs http://www.itchnot.com/images/Malassezia_Dermatitis.pdf

[aimee]

Hi anonymously,

Thanks for posting the skeptvet link here.

I do dislike that homeopathy enjoys an aura of legitimacy when those with medical degrees offer it. I don’t know what the answer is…. I think it says it all a few posts up when the poster shared Dr Becker’s blog post ” Urgent If you Believe in Homeopathic ….” Apparently even those that practice homeopathy, do recognize that is a faith based belief system.. and not science. I don’t think all the data in the world can dissuade someone from a belief that they hold.

[aimee]

Hi Kristine… In regards to the pic.. goodness it was so long ago that I did that but as I recall fairly simple Go to gravatar dot com Hopefully someone who knows more about it can help you if that doesn’t work.

[aimee]

Hi Kristin,

I’m so sorry that you and your beloved Koji are going through this. I’m sure it is heartbreaking. Please post back with any updates.

In regards to the specialists asking to see Koji and being compensated for their time in reviewing the case they may be legally bound to do so. Most if not all states require the patient be examined before making medical recommendations. For me it is a red flag for any Dr to do otherwise.

There is a ‘loophole” if you want to call it that. If your Dr, who is the treating Dr, wants an opinion on his/her case than your Dr can consult with another Dr, but the Dr who is legally responsible for the case remains your original Dr. The consulting Dr. can not recommend to you, the owner, what to be done nor converse with you about the case. This is why “Our vet is going to contact another IM doctor and get there opinion.” is legal but you calling the IM Dr and asking for them to give you an opinion is not.

I think these Dr. to Dr. types of consults are often done as professional courtesy if it is just a short sweet few minutes phone call. But if extended…. the Dr being consulted may ask to be compensated for his/her time and the consulting Dr would then pass that charge on to you.

I hope this helps in some small way for you to understand why none of the specialists you called would review the records at your request without seeing Koji.

[aimee]

Hi weezerweeks,

When i looked at pre mixes the only ones that made sense to me were the balance it products. That said when I looked on the website for Veg to bowl I didn’t find a full nutrient analysis of the product which you’ll need to know how much you can restrict the mix and still meet nutritional needs. I asked for a full NA but they said they couldn’t send me one. Maybe you’ll have better luck. The meat amount isn’t clear to me. Are you supposed to add 4 ounces by weight as that is different from a volume measurement. Also are you to measure before or after cooking retain the fat or drain it and what meat source do they recommend. You’ll get wildly different diets depending on the fat content of the meat you are adding. Also specific oils and amounts to be used will vary with meat source.

If you post the full nutrient analysis for the product and the meat and oil you are using I can try to help.

[aimee]

Hi Karen,

I tried the premix Preference and got lots of poop and the pieces of food came out as it went it in. The store that I purchased it from took it back. As you said it is too expensive to just toss… see if you can return it.

[aimee]

Hi Crista P.,

From the list it looks to me that your vet is making recommendations based on the guidelines from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association. The WSAVA is a very well respected group of veterinary experts from around the globe. Their nutritional committee drew up guidelines on how to select food which you can find at wsava dot org/nutrition-toolkit Scroll down to the bottom and you’ll find the link to selecting the best food for your pet.

Nutrition experts don’t evaluate foods based on an ingredient list which is how may people evaluate foods.

I have used various products from each of the companies on that list with great success.

[aimee]

Hi Dawn,

So sorry to hear that your dog recently needed surgery for stones. Were the stones really in the kidneys or were they in the bladder?

From what I’ve read preventing recurrence is difficult. The vet diets have some backing behind them regarding establishing parameters to prevent formation where as a lot of this type of information isn’t available for foods you’d purchase on your own.

If faced with this situation I’d be devoting a lot of my time on monitoring what is coming out of my dog in addition to what is going in. It seems all are in agreement that “dilution is the solution to pollution” in other words water water and more water. I’d want my dog consuming a lot of water which means moist food or if feeding dry I’d be adding a lot of water to it. But again what is most important is what is coming out. To that end I’d buy myself a refractometer so I could catch urine and monitor the concentration at home. I’d also invest in a pH meter to monitor that aspect as well. Having your vet spin down a fresh ie still “warm from the dog” sample and then looking for crystals is another piece of information.

Frequent rechecks and x ray screening can identify reformation when the stones are still small and then may be able to be recovered without surgery.

If you don’t want to use the vet food there are home cooking options through balance it dot com and you could ask your vet what to look for in a store bought food. I’d think you’d want to avoid high oxalate ingredients, and use a food whose calcium level is close to AAFCO minimum( 0.6% DM) That can be a bit tricky as companies may not monitor this closely hence the vet diets. Vit D levels should be controlled as well. Vit C is metabolized to oxalate so avoid that. Protein amount is tricky it may depend on the amino acid profile as I think certain amino acids are metabolized to oxalate. You will likely need to call the company of any food you are considering and ask what is the average urine pH the diet produces and get a nutrient profile. Larger companies are more likely to have the information and type of quality control you’d need over small companies.

Best of Luck

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

Glad to know that you didn’t just omit the canola : ) I do think it is important to have the right “fit” and if you don’t feel that UT is meeting your needs I can see why you are looking for other opinions. I’ve never worked with a nutritionist so I can’t give you any personal experience but based on her readings you may want to consider Dr Wynn.

Hi C4D,

From the profile you posted I don’t see that Dr Smart is boarded in anything so not sure why Shawna described her as a board certified vet. As she followed that with “Dr. Susan Wynn is another board certified vet nutritionist.” the use of the word “another” led me to believe that Shawna was saying Dr Smart is boarded in nutrition.

I know it seems odd but I’ve only seen boarded accreditation through either the American or European boards. When I looked at faculty in a Canadian vet school they were boarded through the American, or European system or both.

Additionally this statement “she was the first to teach small animal nutrition in North America” doesn’t make sense to me. The vet I use graduated in 1985 and had a dedicated small animal nutrition course in her 4th year vet school and the profile indicates Dr. Smart didn’t start teaching nutrition until 1994.

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

If you already paid for a consult with UT and want options I’d recontact them as they already know your pet’s needs and have the medical records. Explain what it is you desire and see if they will modify the current diet.

Beware…Anyone can call and market themselves as a nutritionist so you do have to be careful as to who you consult with. Unfortunately some vets who are not boarded market themselves as nutritionists and though they they mean well do not give proper nutritional advice. Others call themselves Dr and their degrees are from off shore diploma mills. It really is a buyer beware situation.

Also I think it is if you require a diet to address a medical condition it is not legal for a vet to consult directly with you unless they are the one to physically examine your dog. The nutritionist needs to consult with your vet. This may vary with the state… but I’m pretty sure that is how it needs to be. Dr Wynn makes it that clear on her website that she will be working through your vet and not directly with you. Good Luck.

P.S. I’m concerned if the recipe you have calls for canola oil and you are not using it as this may throw of the balance of the diet. If the canola was incorporated as a source of the needed essential fatty acid linoleic acid and you dropped it out or substituted an oil that didn’t provide linoleic acid, the diet may not be meeting your dog needs.

P.S.s. Dr Meg Smart does not appear on the list of board certified vet nutritionists at acvn dot org

[aimee]

Hi Trevor V,

This site evaluates diets based on ingredients and favors higher protein diets.

Veterinary nutritionists usually would not use an ingredient list to evaluate a diet. Instead they focus more on the company and evaluate based on other criteria as most do not feel you can tell the quality of a diet by looking at an ingredient list. Criteria they use are things like: Does the company employ a veterinary nutritionist? What are the credentials of the person formulating the diet? does the company make it products or outsource production? Can the company answer nutritional inquires correctly? Does the company contribute to nutritional research? Does the company feed trial their diets? Will the company provide a nutritional analysis on request? Does the company test their foods for nutrients or just calculate what they think they are? What are the companies quality control measures?

Because of the difference in focus the food will rate differently. When evaluated by the above criteria the companies that your vet recommended score highly and many 5 star foods would fail miserably.

When choosing my dog’s food I use company criteria over ingredients. The food I feed rates 2.5 stars.

[aimee]

Hi Judith B,

It is great that you home cook. The primary concern I’d have is that it seems like well over 10% of the total daily calories that you are feeding comes from the stew and additional meat you add. This will throw off the balance of the diet unless the stew portion is balanced. The recommendation I’d make is to balance that portion of the diet. You can go to the site balance it and make a semi custom recipe by selecting the ingredients you want. I think the recipes are free if you use their supplement or a small fee if you use human supplements to balance it.

I wouldn’t fret over the stars. The base kibble I chose for my dog is 2.5 stars.

[aimee]

Hi Shawna,

When you wrote “Not even enough to meet the minimum protein amounts required for an a complete and balanced diet.” it could leave a reader with the impression that the diet would cause protein deficiency in the patient. Yet it will not when appropriately used.

AAFCO is an interpretation of NRC to account for the usual and common ingredients used in commercial pet food. Protein digestibility in commercial foods is usually decreased compared to fresh because of the type of protein used and the processing it underwent. AAFCO built a “cushion” into the profile to account for this. Also remember that AAFCO min is really what should be considered a recommended daily amount not the min to sustain life.

I don’t understand the choice of herbs, some of which sure seem contraindicated for a kidney patient. Can you cite the papers where they have been shown to be beneficial?

[aimee]

Hi SaltiDawg,

The NRC is the National Research Council of the National Academies. AAFCO is an interpretation of the NRC recommendations. AAFCO minimums for Na are .3% for puppies and .06 % for adults with an energy density of 3500 kcals/kg diet. The proposed AAFCO.. I don’t think yet adopted, mins for sodium are .3% puppies and .08% adults with an energy density of 4000 kcals/kg. AAFCO doesn’t specify a maximum allowed sodium content in dog food.

NRC doesn’t report a min or SUL for sodium for puppies indicating that there is insufficient data. They do report an adequate and recommended sodium level for puppies of 2.2 grams/kg DM with an energy density of 4000 kcal/kg diet.

NRC reports a min sodium for adult dogs as .3 grams per kg DM and a recommended amount as .8 grams/kg diet with an energy density of 4000 kcals/kg.

Hope this helps

[aimee]

Hi Rick

NRC reports ” the SUL [safe upper limit] of Na for dogs can be reasonably set at approximately 15 g Na.kg-1 diet DM basis.” This means 15 grams of sodium for every kilogram of diet on a dry matter basis of 4000kcal/kg, equivalent to ~3.5 grams sodium/1000kcals

I agree with Gerald in that you’ll often need to call the company and ask them for the sodium level in the diet you are interested in. Some companies do post this information on line.

[aimee]

Hi Shawna,
In regards to balance it I hand calculated out the protein requirements for a 50 lb dog and then looked at several recipes and they all met or exceeded NRC recommendation. Not sure why you’d say the diet isn’t complete and balanced.

The strength of Balance is it is a good place to start if you can’t afford an individual consult and it looks that you can customize the recipes for a small fee. But if you wanted to say up the protein you could run the calculations yourself since all the nutritional information is given.

I do agree that in early stages higher protein can be fed and of great importance to me is to calculate protein needs and make sure they are being met independent of the percent of protein in the diet.

Darwin’s “kidney” diet is quite the mystery to me as phos. is not restricted. As you know phos. restriction is the most important key to slowing down progression of renal disease. The Phos level is nearly twice the NRC recommended amount for a normal dog.

I’m glad to see they require vet approval as it looks like this diet would only be appropriate for a dog that doesn’t yet need any modifications from AAFCO maintenance requirements. In that case there are OTC diets that are a lot less expensive that could be used

[aimee]

Hi sheila23,

I’m so sorry to learn about your dog. You are right to be very concerned about nutrition for Alvin. Since he is so young looking for any conditions that are treatable is also very important.

This site is technical but may be of help to you or your vet as you decide upon treatment. Foods that are intended for normal dogs will have phosphorus levels too high for a dog with kidney insufficiency.

http://iris-kidney.com/

Preference could be an option but I’ve found that The Honest Kitchen knows precious little about dog nutrition and personally I wouldn’t trust the company’s products in this situation. Grandma Lucy’s used to market their diet as a low phosphorus diet appropriate for kidney patients. I repeatedly asked them what the phosphorus level was in the food and they said they didn’t know. It was only after I reported them to the state feed control official that they tested the food and changed their labels. The diets are too high in phosphorus to be considered a low phosphorus diet for a kidney patient and contain garlic which is something I’d avoid in this situation.

A homemade diet may be the best option if you are not comfortable with any of the commercial diets designed for dogs with kidney compromise. Or a combination of homemade and commercial. Nutrition of a kidney patient is very important, so much so that this is a situation that I personally would consult a vet nutritionist. Or you may want to check out the “balance it” site as they have for kidney friendly homemade recipes balanced by a vet nutritionist.

Best of luck to you and Alvin

[Author]

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