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aimee

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  • in reply to: No Hide Chews #148526 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi AlexT11,

    Gelatin melting temps do vary a bit but all well below the temp of boiling water. The addition of starch to gelatin does raise the melting temp too. but again not too different from baseline on the combinations I found referenced. There is actually papers written on gelatin/starch films properties. All very complicated and fascinating.

    Papers also written on Gummy candies that made of gelatin and starches along with sugars.

    The Ole Ray packaging I have states “product of China” Buy a pack and check them out. i found them very different from the other chews I’ve looked at.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  aimee.
    in reply to: No Hide Chews #148474 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi AlexT11,

    I hadn’t seen the Sam’s club rawhide free rolls before. They have the same ingredient line up and Guaranteed Analysis as Dentley’s rawhide free retriever rolls. The Dentley’s product ,like the Sam’s club product, is labeled as being a product of Mexico. Maybe they are the same????

    The Dentley’s product looks like a roll but after soaking I can’t unroll it. I suspect it is an injection molded product made to look like a roll. It eventually breaks down in boiling water whereas the Ole Roy product dissolves quite quickly. I wonder if it could be that the Ole Roy product has a higher gelatin content than the Dentley’s( min 60% protein in the Ole Roy vs min 20% in the Dentley’s ) Gelatin melts at about 95 degrees.

    in reply to: Vet recommended dog food and my opinions #146411 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Bobby dog,
    Good post!

    in reply to: Vet recommended dog food and my opinions #146241 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Patricia,

    As I said before “Boarded Veterinary Nutritionists are all pretty united on the mantra that you can not judge the quality of a diet by looking at an ingredient list. ” including those educated in “holistic” medicine. From Dr. Susan Wynn DVM, CVA, CVCH, AHG, DACVN”… you can not judge a pet food by the ingredient listing-period”

    I noted the none of the reviewer in the post are veterinary nutritionists, instead they as a group seem to hold a lot of tenants that are not based in science.

    in reply to: Vet recommended dog food and my opinions #146232 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Haleycookie,
    It appears you do not understand what a kickback is.

    in reply to: Vet recommended dog food and my opinions #146147 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Patricia,

    Personally, I think if you asked those questions of a Boarded Veterinary Nutritionist you’d get a puzzled look back in return.

    The questions reflect your understanding of diet selection/nutriiion which is very very different from how a boarded veterinary nutritionist or even a regular DVM would likely approach the subject.

    It is meaningless to ask what percentage of the diet should each vitamin or mineral be when you didn’t define the energy basis.
    Boarded Veterinary Nutritionists are all pretty united on the mantra that you can not judge the quality of a diet by looking at an ingredient list. So yes I’d say that the boarded veterinary nutritionist hypothetically sitting across the table from you would inform you that are indeed “way off” as you put it.

    Finally, veterinarians do not receive any type of “kickback” on each bag they sell.

    in reply to: No Hide Chews #145754 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Jill,

    I just want to clarify that the dog that passed was in the same room with the owner and was lying right next to the owner at her feet and was being watched. Th owner acted immediately.

    When I read things like “supervise” I wonder what does that mean? For example, it is oft recommended to supervise all child and dog interactions. yet many bites occur while the child and dog are being “supervised”. This is because the person supervising hasn’t been educated on what types of interactions are inappropriate or on recognizing canine signaling that indicates the dog is uncomfortable.

    There are plenty of child /dog videos posted by well meaning individuals in which the child is clearly in danger but the person filming doesn’t see it. Similarly, I’ve seen plenty of videos of dogs chewing on chews and the person filming their dog doesn’t “see” the danger present.

    For me, my rules are that my dog can neither get the entire length or width of the product into the mouth if it is made of a material that is not expected to easily fracture into many small consumable pieces. The dog owner team must have an impeccable “drop” cue in the “toolbox” so that recovering a chew is not stressful to the dog or owner.

    in reply to: Large/giant dog #144438 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Connie,
    Fromm large breed adult is marketed as an adult food but it is formulated for growth meaning the company could market it it as a puppy food or all life stages food but chose not to. Nutritionally though it is the same as puppy food.

    If however the nutritional adequacy statement said the food was only formulated for maintenance I would not consider it appropriate for growth.

    I prefer during growth to use foods from a company that has fed the food to a large/giant breed throughout the entire growth period and monitored the dogs development.

    in reply to: Anyone's dog allergic to PEAS? #143869 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Nadia,

    The only accurate test for food reactions including allergies is with a food trial. Blood tests, saliva tests, hair tests etc are not helpful as your dog can test positive for food they are not reacting to and negative for the food that is causing the problem.


    aimee
    Member

    Hi Adrianne,

    If food is being poorly digested for any reason the resulting feces can be more attractive to the dog.

    When I fed my dog THK the food came out pretty much looking the same way it went in unless I cooked the diet.
    At that time I had asked THK if they did digestion trials. They had not and they reported it is “normal” to have 4-5 stools a day on their foods. I considered that excessive and discontinued feeding THK.


    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne l,

    You bring up a very good point. Most cases of DCM have not been reported to the FDA. If DCM follows other types of adverse event reporting the percentage of cases reported is really quite low. In reality the 560 cases that have been reported are likely the tip of the iceberg. Please encourage your neighbor and mothers friend to take the time to report

    in reply to: Grain-free diets linked to heart disease? #141915 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne,

    As I recall when I talked to Purina years ago I think they said it is 3-5 years from concept to sales of a product. Similar for Hill so if products are coming out they were in the works for some time.

    Hill’s Ideal balance line was discontinued and their Bioactive line launched. Brands and products come and go.

    The DCM faebook group is full of heartbreaking DCM cases… tissue needed

    in reply to: FDA investigation into diet and DCM #141892 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Thanks!

    in reply to: FDA investigation into diet and DCM #141885 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi pugmomsandy,

    Thanks for posting this. The new marketing tagline gave me a giggle. Wonder if other companies will pick it up
    Do you have any idea when this labeling was introduced?

    in reply to: Grain Free Diets and Heart Disease #141727 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    haleycookie,

    I read through Champion’s response and in my opinion it is very reminiscent of and just as unbiased as the response of the tobacco industry when the first link was made between smoking and cancer. : )

    In my opinion, very cleverly written to model after the response of the tobacco industry, “our science found no concerns” but as I read it I find that what they are reporting is very vague and appears to be poorly done.

    For example what is “long-term feeding trials with enhanced DCM protocols” In regards to length was it 2 days, 2 weeks, a month, 2 months?? Considering it isn’t yet know how long is may take for dietary DCM to become apparent how are they confident that their trial would have been long enough to find any abnormalities.

    What are “enhanced DCM protocols”. The only takeaway I got from their response is that perhaps they measured taurine. Considering most cases have normal taurine levels it seems silly to me to sound an “all clear” based on that test.

    Champion likes to point out that dietary DCM appears to be uncommon. The true incidence isn’t known. But I think it is fair to say that not every dog/cat consuming a problematic diet becomes ill. In the Melamine crisis huge numbers of dogs and cats that were exposed didn’t become ill. Same with the association between renal disease and chicken jerky or between grapes/raisins and renal disease. So for illustration sake let’s say that for problem “X ” 1 in a thousand becomes ill. Is testing several dogs relevant? I would say it is not. And Champion hasn’t said what number of dogs participated in their trials. Hmmm

    Let’s look at this statement…
    “In the recipes Champion makes, we emphasize fresh and raw meat with total animal-derived ingredients ranging from 60 to 85 percent of the finished product. Legumes are not a significant feature in Champion’s recipes, and never have been.”

    Take the finished product Acana Free Run Poultry chosen at random GA is 29% protein 17% fat and 12 % moisture and I’ll toss in 3 % ash. 100-29-17-12-3= 39% min plant based nutrient.

    Looking at the ingredient list and removing the animal based ingredients , and discarding the ingredients after salt leaves us with whole green peas, whole red lentils, whole pinto beans, , chickpeas, whole green lentils, whole yellow peas, lentil fiber,

    Those ingredients, except for the fiber, are in addition to being sources of carbohydrate are also sources of protein From USDA nutrient database an average of 1 part protein for every 3 parts carb. So of that 29 % protein 10 grams may be from the legumes.

    Total plant content 39 % + 10% and you get 49% plant based ingredients which I consider a “significant feature”
    Total animal based 19% + 17% fat for a total of 36%

    In that example I made assumptions as I am using the GA which is just min values therefore the results are not completely accurate but it is very different from the claim of 60-85% animal derived content in the finished product.
    Personally, the only thing I can figure that may be 85% animal content finished product would be some of the treats.

    Several years ago I asked Champion if they did AAFCO feeding trials. They answered affirmatively. On further inquiry as I recall I asked how long they were for and they replied a few weeks. Hmm more questions and they report they test for palatability, digestibility and stool quality. Most would assume by an AAFCO feeding trial they were talking about a trial for nutritional adequacy but that is not the response I got.

    I see this response from Champion as nothing more than a marketing piece . I urge caution whenever looking at any statements made by any food manufacturer in regards to their product.

    Perhaps if Champion really wanted to contribute to the knowledge base they should hire veterinary cardiologists and hold free echo screening for DCM for dogs who have eaten their food as their primary source of nutrition. With all the frequent buyer programs it shouldn’t be too hard for retailers to track Champion’s customers.

    in reply to: Grain Free Diets and Heart Disease #141631 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne l

    Keep in mind that DCM can be a silent killer. In other words a dog ‘s heart may sound normal on a dog’s annual exam but the dog has DCM. Echo is the only way to assess function.

    in reply to: oat groats?? #140240 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne,

    If I’m understanding you, your concern with oat groats is in regard to the fiber content and feel that oatmeal is a better option. However, from the USDA nutrient data base the total dietary fiber of oat groats is the same as oatmeal ~ 10 grams /100 grams. Unlike rice or wheat oats are rarely refined. Oat meal is simply flattened oat groats… same nutrient profile : )

    The nutritionist you spoke with seems to be under the impression that the bran is removed when making oatmeal. However I haven’t found this to be the case .
    “Unique among the most widely-eaten grains, oats almost never have their bran and germ removed in processing.”
    https://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/easy-ways-enjoy-whole-grains/grain-month-calendar/oats-%E2%80%93-january-grain-month

    From a nutrient standpoint it appears that oatmeal and oat groats are interchangeable . Perhaps by “easier to digest” ,”harder to digest” you are referring to rate of digestion. The smaller the particle size the faster the digestion.

    What fiber level and type works best for each individual is unique to that individual. In general higher fiber levels are recommended for colitis.

    in reply to: oat groats?? #140187 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne l

    It seems to me oat groats is just another word for whole grain oats so yes the bran, germ and endosperm are included. From the USDA nutrient database it appears that the total dietary fiber for oat groats is similar to other whole grains.

    Human nutritionists seem to agree that whole grains are more healthful than their refined counterparts. so it surprised me that the nutritionist you talked to seems to be advising against them.

    In regards to digestibility I found one comparative study done in dogs and oat groats had high digestibility. on par with other grains commonly used in dog foods. Not sure what exactly you mean by “hard to digest”, I’m guess you mean low total digestibility. Perhaps you can post a link to the study that reported that.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9fdb/1bb6f38f99956f823489c7980024aebfd216.pdf

    from the abstract:

    “Most dry dog foods are based on cereals, but very little published information and few comparative studies are available on the nutritive value of various cereals in dogs. To determine the apparent nutrient digestibilities and feed values of five different autoclave-processed and ground cereals: oat groats, barley, wheat, corn and rice, a digestibility trial was carried out on twelve adult huskies ac-cording to a 6 × 4 cyclic changeover design. Total tract organic matter (OM), crude carbohydrate and gross energy (GE) digestibilities were higher in rice than in all the other cereals. Apparent crude protein (CP) and acid hydrolyzed fat digestibilities of rice (80% and 94%, respectively) were as good as for oat groats (81% and 93%). However, oat groats had higher OM, CP and GE digestibilities than barley, wheat and corn. The amount of digestible crude protein (118 g kg-1 DM) was higher in oat groats than in the other cereals. Digestible energy contents (MJ kg-1 DM) of oat groats, rice, corn,wheat and barley were 17.1, 16.0, 15.7, 15.6 and 15.5, respectively. The quantity of excreted wet faeces increased and the percentage of dry matter (DM) in faeces decreased when oat groats, barley,wheat or corn were supplemented to the basal diet, in contrast to rice, which had the opposite effecton wet faeces excretion. Oat groats are good substitutes for rice or other cereals in dry dog foods.”

    in reply to: Pharmaceuticals and heartworm meds #139383 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Wow! Here are my thoughts regarding Peter Dobias’s recommendations…

    Heartworm DNA testing. Dobias wrote “This test has virtually no false negatives, which is great news for your dog.”

    PCR tests in general are very sensitive and so that statement may be technically true. But the manner in which he is applying the test I think false negatives will be the norm. The test is based on DNA which is in a cell’s nucleus. Heartworm larva migrate in the sub Q tissue. How is it that larva cells can get from the sub Q into the circulatory system? They are too big to cross vessel walls. The larva do leave the sub Q and enter the circulatory system and at that point I’d expect they can be detected. However the dog is now infected with young adult heartworms. The time frame to prevent infection has passed.

    Preventatives are effective against young larva, the older the migrating larva are the less effective the kill rate. Even if this test can pickup migrating larva, by only testing every 4months, the infection cold be four months old and difficult to arrest at that point.

    His temp data doesn’t look accurate. Heartworm development in the mosquito progresses with warmer temps. Units referred to as heartworm development units. need to accumulate. Sustained high temps are not required.

    The reason for extending prevention beyond exposure dates is that it is documented that one dose of preventatives doesn’t always prevent infection. In one study one does didn’t prevent infection and three doses a month apart from each other did.

    In my opinion the alternative program as outlined by Peter Dobias is reckless at best.

    in reply to: Purina dog food #139144 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne,

    I’ve fed Purina for for about 20 years now and have never had insect infestation in any of the bags I’ve purchased over the years.

    On the other hand it wouldn’t surprise me that you’ll get many hits if you search “Purina and worms or bugs” because of the large volume is sold. If there is a one in a million problem and 100 million units sold that makes for 100 problems vs a company with smaller distribution of 500,000 units will only experience the one in a million problem once every 2 years.

    Insect activity is a post production problem often related to storage both at the distribution center and in the home.

    The same reasoning applies to reports of illness. The greater the population using a product the more reports of illness which may or may not be related to the product will be reported.

    in reply to: Fromm dog food #139142 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne,

    I’ve fed Purina for for about 20 years now and have never had insect infestation in any of the bags I’ve purchased over the years.

    On the other hand it wouldn’t surprise me that you’ll get many hits if you search “Purina and worms or bugs” because of the large volume is sold. If there is a one in a million problem and 100 million units sold that makes for 100 problems vs a company with smaller distribution of 500,000 units will only experience the one in a million problem once every 2 years.

    Insect activity is a post production problem often related to storage both at the distribution center and in the home.

    in reply to: calorie weighted basis #138761 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    thank,
    You are welcome !

    in reply to: calorie weighted basis #138739 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hello thank,

    The information is taken from the guaranteed analysis. Carbohydrate is calculated based on 100% – (protein +lipid+ash+moisture+fiber)

    Some assumptions are made as the guaranteed analysis reports minimums and maximums. Calling the company and getting actual levels is more accurate.

    You can use this calculator https://secure.balanceit.com/tools/_gaconverter/

    in reply to: About Mars pet foods #137788 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi joanne

    When I read the Cooking light article like you I thought Yuck! But when I read the actual FDA report that the article is based on I came away with a whole different perspective.

    Yes, there was plastic in the food traced back to incoming fresh frozen beef by products ( spleens lungs and gullets) Not sure why Cooking Light reported it was from broken equipment at that plant. The Company did change out their plastic to blue to distinguish it from the white plastic that apparently was not uncommonly found in raw materials.
    By doing so they would know for sure where to focus their efforts if additional plastic was found and be able to confidently go back to the supplier and say it was from them.

    Yes they had roaches. The 99 instances of pest activity were over 7 plus months not 72 days and in most cases were for a single roach. The company had employees self report if they saw any pest activity. Frankly, I think it was a wise guy employee that wrote “millions of roaches” The most the pest control company reported finding was a one time report of 250. The company had ongoing pest control and when the problem wasn’t eradicated hired an entomologist. So yes roaches were found and the company was addressing it.

    I’d encourage anyone to read the original report and make their decisions based on the original report. https://truthaboutpetfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/MarsEIR2017.pdf

    in reply to: Grain Free #137201 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Christine V,

    I’ve been a member for month and have a very different experience. What I see is a very dedicated group of people who are committed to fact based material. On that basis, it wouldn’t surprise me if posts stating my dog has DCM from brand X are removed unless the poster providers verification of DCM .

    I have read posts stating ‘My dog has DCM” in which the poster then describes a process unlike DCM,so iI think honest mistakes can be made. but I’m also open to the idea that some people may post inaccurate information on purpose. If the clerk from the boutique pet store I spoke to joined and posted that Purina is causing DCM I think the post should be pulled and she should be banned from further posting.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if such people, once banned, would then move on to other sights and vent.

    Eye’s wide open… no blinders on , critical thinking skills and healthy skepticism intake. I think the best we can do when feeding commercial foods is to feed foods with ingredients that are well tested and understood and from companies that have a long track record of having a vested interest in animal health.

    in reply to: Grain Free #136960 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Christine V
    Your take on on the Facebook DCM groups etc is about as plausible as the nonsense that the boutique pet store employee told me the other night. She said Purina is sending people out to identify pet owners whose dogs are eating “good foods” like they sell. Purina is then giving those dogs DCM to make it look like DCM is associated with “good foods” I said ‘You mean to tell me that Purina is responsible for killing hundreds of dogs by giving them DCM?” and she said “Yes! ”

    Wow !! I was shocked! Unbelievable !! The stories people come up with never cease to amaze me.

    in reply to: Hydrolyzed Diet #135999 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Denis S,

    Any chance that your dog was diagnosed as having perianal fustula? My friends shepherd had this many many years ago and at that time it had just been identified that adverse food reaction could be a component of the problem. Her dog was placed on a vet therapeutic diet along with medication and eventually was maintained on diet alone.

    Here is some information on that condition https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20536692
    https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=4952922

    Only the vet therapeutic diets are specifically made for treating adverse food reactions as OTC foods often have proteins in them that are not on the ingredient list. Home cooking is a alternative using items your dog hasn’t eaten in the past. Ask your vet for advice.

    in reply to: No Hide Chews #133154 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Bobby dog,
    I haven’t seen those before, but have found a number of chews marketed as Rawhide free. Indeed labeling products as rawhide free is a popular marketing tagline!

    I found some labeled “Not Rawhide” that look just like untanned cattle skin. When I asked the company what tissue the chew was sourced from they said it is sourced from skin but it isn’t rawhide because it is skin from the head of the cow whereas hide comes from the body of the cow. Apparently you can have your cake and eat it too!

    in reply to: No Hide Chews #131589 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Linda,

    I don’t think there are any perfect chews. There is risk in everything and what may be suitable for one dog isn’t for another.

    That said my preferred chew items are food stuffed kongs. For my own dogs I’m not a fan of vegetable chews like carrots or dehydrated potato. Of the available animal based options I choose flat rawhide “chips” larger then the dog’s mouth and trade them out when the dog can get it into the mouth.

    I shy away from bone shaped rolls etc as they can break teeth.

    I understand that many are uncomfortable with rawhide. Certainly if large pieces are attempted to be swallowed it can result in obstruction. In regards to all the bad press regarding chemical containment, after learning that the same “lime splits” used to make rawhide are used in human food production I’m comfortable with the processing agents used in production and the steps taken to remove them.

    As with dog food companies ,there are certain rawhide manufactures with whom I’m comfortable and others that I’m not.

    in reply to: No Hide Chews #131461 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Lisa,

    Thanks for contributing. Curious, I microwaved rawhide and it shrunk considerably and curled. I microwaved a different brand rawhide and saw no change. Maybe it has something to do with the amount of moisture in the product or different processing. I can’t say I noted much of a smell in either product.


    aimee
    Member

    Anon,
    Thanks for posting this. I believe there was a similar problem in the past as well

    in reply to: No Hide Chews #129635 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Lisa,

    I’m a fan of stuffed Kongs. I had ten of them when raising my last dog! She pretty much ate 50-75 % of her daily food from them. When tired she would become crazy mouthy a Kong and her crate and she would soon fall asleep : ) At first made the puzzle easy.. didn’t freeze them but as she became skilled in emptying they were frozen.

    in reply to: Conundrum – impossible mix of ingredients #128946 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Ann H,

    Please keep in mind that there is no accurate way to test for food allergies. While tests exist, dogs will test positive to foods they have no allergic reactions to and can test negative to the foods that they react to.

    For information on food allergies and how to diagnose and treat them go to veterinarypartner(dot) com and search on food allergy

    The only way to diagnose food allergy is through an elimination food trial. A food specifically made for this purpose can be acquired through your veterinarian. Home cooking is also an option.

    Limited ingredient diets often contain protein sources not listed in the ingredients and are not suitable to use as a test diet.
    Best of Luck!

    in reply to: Looking for a legumes free diet #128329 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Merrick W,

    AFFCO definitions really do not tell you much about the ingredient except from which it is sourced. Beef could mean a high content of muscle tissue or it could be very little muscle and a lot of skin and fat.

    Nor does the ingredient list give you information about the quality of the ingredient or if the food was formulated or processed appropriately.

    So to play devils advocate you wrote “But the most offensive to me is the Poultry By-Product Meal. ANYTHING from the chicken or turkey that is not used to make what is sold commercially (e.g., leg, thigh, breast pieces, skin) can be used in by-product meal, including feathers claws, and beaks, all ground down, and I don’t even want to take a chance with giving my dog such unknown and questionable ingredients. ”

    I’m going to apply the same type of reasoning to Alaskan Pollack Meal :But the most offensive to me is the Alaskan Pollack Meal. ANYTHING from the fish that is not used to make what is sold commercially ( fillets) can be used in Pollack meal, including scales, fins, and tails, all ground down, and I don’t even want to take a chance with giving my dog such unknown and questionable ingredients. In fact there doesn’t have to be any actual muscle tissue in Pollack Meal. It could just be a bunch of ground fish cuttings.

    I look at and interview the company when making dog food feeding decisions. If there is a particular ingredient I want to avoid I will look at the list but other than that I haven’t found it all that helpful.

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128108 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Ok Now I see it next to reply once I posted… disappears after a time frame has passed.

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128107 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi anon101,

    Glad Pro Plan is working out for you. It can be a bit unnerving to try something so different from what you’ve previously fed. My Labs have always done well on that brand. My girl was in the ribbons every time I showed her.

    I’ve never seen an edit option button on the forum side only “report abuse” where is it?

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128104 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member
    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128100 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi jill b,
    Spycar makes some bold statements without any references. Here is what the science says

    Dogs eating 62% carb calories had body fat levels of 21+/-2.1% (25% protein calories, 13% calories from fat and 62% calories from carbohydrate) The dogs eating 0-1% carb had 27.1 +/-1.8% body fat ( 24% protein 76% fat calories and 0 carb calories), 27.5 +/-2.7% body fat f ( 48%protein calories, 52% fat calories and 0 carb calories) and 29.5 +/-1.6% body fat (44% protein calories, 55% fat calories and 0 % carb calories)

    replace the word dot with a . after the word amazonnaws

    https://s3.amazonawsdotcom/academia.edu.documents/44951774/Effects_of_dietary_carbohydrate_fat_and_20160421-16818-13tz74c.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1544112009&Signature=80mvsXfKSU13Jg8FGSk7O%2B6%2B2sk%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DEffects_of_Dietary_Carbohydrate_Fat_and.pdf

    All studies have limitations but from this you can see that dogs eating a high carb diet had less body fat than those eating very low to no carb diet calling into question Spy Cars fears that feeding your dog carbohydrate would result in obesity. All dogs are individuals and what macronutrient profile they do best on may be inherent to that individual. For my Labs feeding the Pro Plan weight management formula worked best.
    Hope you find what works for your dog!

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128068 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spy car,
    Again with the grandstanding and no citations. You made the statement you should provide the citation. When something in published in a peer reviewed journal the reader isn’t told to use Google to find article to support what they are saying. You are the author of your statements and you need to provide the citations. Besides I need to know I’m reading what you are reading.

    After the field trials go checkout all those obese crippled greyhounds eating a 42% energy from carb diet 😉

    “These studies concluded that a dry food based diet, which contained 42% of the energy from carbohydrates, 33% from fat and 24% from protein, provided the best dietary
    balance to optimise speed and performance over a standard 500 metre race distance. However, greyhounds on this diet were slightly heavier in body weight compared to greyhounds fed a diet containing higher protein and fat, with a lower content of carbohydrate. This difference in body weight was attributed to a greater muscle bulk in greyhounds fed on the medium protein diet.9”.

    Interesting stuff!

    replace the word dot with a (.)

    http://www.greyhound-data dot com/dir/806/Feeding_a_Racing_Greyhound.pdf

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128045 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spy Car
    And once again no references.. it seems you just make this stuff up as you go.

    Funny how all those Labs that are “de tuned” and “crippled” from eating a carb laden diet keep winning National field trial championships. You probably should go to National field trial and “educate” all the handlers on how crippled and obese all their dogs are. I’m sure it will go over real well : )

    Sometimes posts can get hung up if you had links in them.. At least that has happened to me and now when i want to post a link i will replace the (.) with the word dot and then they seem to go through.

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #128033 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spy Car,
    OK…. so you have no references to cite or share to support your bold statements.

    I think you’ll agree that while both Goldens and Labs are sporting breeds most are not engaged in “very intense levels of physical activity”. While you can feed a high protein/no carb/ high fat diet to a dog not engaged in intense physical activity you have yet to provide any references that it confers a benefit to do so.

    Sure dogs do not require carbohydrates, people don’t either…..

    Simplistically speaking fats are important for endurance, and carbohydrates for intensity. A sled dog’s intended purpose is endurance. A racing greyhound… intensity. If you want to win don’t feed a racing greyhound as you would a sled dog nor a sled dog as a racing greyhound. Working Goldens and Labs need both endurance and intensity.

    I don’t disagree that protein and fat levels significantly above AAFCO’s baseline maintenance level are advantageous for dogs engaged in intense physical activity but for a typical companion Golden or Lab they just are not necessary.

    in reply to: non grain free dog food #127919 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spy Car

    Please provide a full text reference link for the study you are citing. If this was a sled dog study really all you can say is that dogs under intense work did better on the higher protein test diet of the levels tested. Doesn’t mean a dog in mild or average work would need the same level. Be careful not to overstate the conclusion.

    Jill B,
    I’m a Lab person and would have no concerns feeding RC Golden formula. To maintain good weight and muscling I feed Pro Plan weight management which I consider a low fat, mod protein diet similar to the RC formula. All healthy active dogs with great stamina in the field, no injuries and great teeth!

    in reply to: HELP: Mixing Coconut Oil & Food #126227 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spycar,

    You wrote “Instead of responding to a long and reasoned criticism of SkeptVet’s methods outside the particulars of this one study, you charge me with having a strong bias against SkeptVet,”

    Actually what I said was ” “To me it appears that you are starting out with a strong bias against skeptvet….” If I was charging you with having a strong bias against skeptvet I would have said “You have a strong bias against skeptvet” : )

    To respond in detail to every accusation you made would take more time and effort than I’m willing to put forth as I don’t think my effort would ever change your opinion. And let’s face it my previous post was quite long and I only responded to one point!

    I don’t see your conclusion as being any different from skept vet. You wrote “All that can be said truthfully is that there have been very few studies of coconut oils and there risks and benefits in dogs.” and “Almost zero science to support either harm or benefits to dogs” Skeptvet wrote ” There is virtually no research on coconut oil in dogs and cats, apart from some studies looking at topical use for treatment of parasites. Therefore, the health effects, both risks and benefits, are unknown and supported only by unreliable anecdotal evidence.”

    He treats the available anecdotal evidence for harm the same way as he does for benefits, unreliable in both cases. Anecdotal/personal reports are a form of evidence just very weak, unreliable, low level evidence. In science you can’t make strong conclusions from weak evidence and skeptvet maintains this stance and will remind people of that tenet.

    I don’t see it as wrong to talk about anecdotal reports They are observations and taken collectively I see their purpose as being a resource from which to form hypothesis for controlled studies.

    As I said before, I think it best to look at how his peers evaluate him. The evidence based veterinary medical group had elected him as their president. If he were to be guilty of all you charge him with I don’t see that this would have ever happened. He is a reviewer for recognized journals, and has himself authored peer reviewed articles published in established journals. He has been judged by his peers and elevated to the position that he holds/has held.

    Can he come off as a bit cocky at times? I could see that people may interpret him that way but from what I’ve seen his science is sound.

    in reply to: HELP: Mixing Coconut Oil & Food #126063 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Spycar,

    It appears that you still are not understanding the study that Skeptvet refers to. There were three separate experiments: Palatability, Digestability and Weight loss

    Let’s look at the weight loss study “Experiment design The experiment was divided into two phases. In the first phase, overweight condition was induced in all dogs by consuming a high‐energy diet (Royal Canin Professional Energy 4800, Aimargues, France) ad libitum for 16 weeks; at the end of this phase, their BW and food intakes were stable. ……The second phase consisted of a 14‐week weight loss period during which dogs were divided into three groups, each receiving one of the experimental diets. ”

    It seems that to do a weight loss study the researchers needed some overweight dogs with which to do it. They allowed the dogs free access to a diet by Royal Canin. NOTE All dogs were on the same diet and not on the experimental diets during the weight gain period. And no mention of coconut oil in the induction phase which is called phase one.

    You wrote “they free fed the dogs for 16 weeks and it is of little surprise that dogs ate more and got fatter on the more delicious menu option” When you write ” on the more delicious menu option” I read that as you saying the dog had multiple food options. They did not. The experimental diets with various levels of coconut oil were not available to them. There was only one diet in phase one, a min 28% fat diet designed to sustain long periods of activity. The high fat diet led to weight gain in the beagles, a breed recognized for becoming overweight, when it was fed free choice. Note no mention of coconut oil in phase one.

    It was after the 16 week free feed when the experimental diets were fed to the dogs for weight loss. This was phase two. The overweight dogs were divided into three groups and each group was fed a different experimental diet in a limited amount. It was this subsequent, phase two portion of the experiment that skeptvet is referring to. He wrote ” One study that added coconut oil to dog food to see if it would help with weight loss found that dogs on the diet with coconut oil lost less weight and had more body fat than dogs on diets with other sources of fat.” The key sections to pay attention to are “added coconut oil to dog food” and “weight loss” The only experiment in which both coconut oil was added to dog food and weight loss was tracked was phase 2 of the weight loss experiment. AND it is clear from the paper that the experimental diets were restricted for this phase of the experiment.

    Skeptvet wrote ” dogs on the diet with coconut oil lost less weight and had more body fat than dogs on diets with other sources of fat.”The authors of the study report “Body weight (BW) reduction was lower (C0: 20.1 ± 2.32%, C20: 14.6 ± 1.43% and C40: 15.7 ± 1.23%, p < 0.05) and FM was higher (FM, 18.7 ± 3.42%, 27.9 ± 3.90% and 28.2 ± 2.88% for C0, C20 and C40, respectively, p < 0.05) for diets C20 and C40 than for C0.” Skeptvet simply restated the results. The authors wrote “Body weight (BW) reduction was lower” and skeptvet wrote “lost less weight” The authors wrote “FM was higher” (FM stands for fat mass ) and skeptvet wrote had more body fat. The diets with added coconut oil are C20 and C40.

    You seem to have the various phases of the weight loss experiment and the palatability experiment, which was a separate experiment, all mixed up in your head. You wrote.” … he makes a claim that dogs fed “coconut oil lost less weight and had more body fat than dogs on diets with other sources of fat.” This statement refers to the author’s conclusion of phase 2 of the weight loss experiment that skeptvet restated. But then you go on to say “What he leaves out of the summary is that the dogs in the study found the food with more coconut in the mix (relative to vegetable oils) much more palatable than the dogs with foods high in vegetable oil, and these dogs were allowed to eat their fill.” This statement that you wrote refers to the results of a palatablilty experiment, a completely separate experiment from the weight loss experiment. It has no bearing on and is irrelevant to the weight loss experiment which is why skeptvet didn’t include information from the palatability experiment. He wasn’t addressing palatability of coconut oil, he is addressing effects of coconut oil on weight loss. Then somehow you conclude that skeptvet is guilty of ” Not honest science here. No mention by Skept Vet that the study lacked portion control.” It is clear that portion control was present for the weight loss experiment phase he is discussing. Very honest science from skeptvet! ! Then you state ” Big suprise that dogs given unlimited access to food ate more of the delicious food. Good grief.” It isn’t clear to which experiment or experiments you are referring to. It looks like you are referring again to the palatability experiment in which the dogs had multiple food options and unlimited access but you could mean the induction phase in which no experimental diets were fed and the dogs had free access to a Royal Canin product.

    I hope you can now see that skeptvet was completely honest in his reporting. He is reporting the author’s conclusions of phase 2 of a weight loss study in which overweight dogs were fed portion controlled amounts of three different diets.

    You wrote “You notably ignored all the other problems with Skept Vet’s methods”

    Well not really as I said “To me it appears that you are starting out with a strong bias against skeptvet and then proceed to take things out of context, read into whatever he writes your own skewed interpretation and then call him out. Makes no sense to me.”

    Bill you can find all kinds of stuff on skeptvet including a recent CV by googling “skeptvet” if you need help let me know!

    in reply to: HELP: Mixing Coconut Oil & Food #125983 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Spycar

    You wrote “… he is not faithful in how he represents the ones that have been done. For example, he makes a claim that dogs fed “coconut oil lost less weight and had more body fat than dogs on diets with other sources of fat.” What he leaves out of the summary is that the dogs in the study found the food with more coconut in the mix (relative to vegetable oils) much more palatable than the dogs with foods high in vegetable oil, and these dogs were allowed to eat their fill. Not honest science here. No mention by Skept Vet that the study lacked portion control. Big suprise that dogs given unlimited access to food ate more of the delicious food. Good grief.”

    I’d encourage you to go back and read the study. It appears that you are not understanding the study and then falsely accusing skeptvet of dishonesty. Why would skeptvet report that “the study lacked portion control” when portion control measures are clearly outlined for the weight loss study? Why are you faulting skeptvet for not reporting something that didn’t occur?

    In a palatability test the dogs had free access to food for a 5 min interval and they ate significantly more of the diets in which coconut oil was used. For the weight loss study it reports that caloric intake was tightly controlled and adjusted every 2 weeks to maintain weight loss of 1-2%. The energy intake table reports that at the 6 week mark all groups were eating ~ 800 kcals a day. From that point onward both coconut oil groups had caloric adjustments downward to maintain weight loss whereas it looks like the soybean/canola group had to have caloric intake slightly increased. This would have been done in response to the dogs losing more than 2% /week. At the end of the study the two coconut oil groups were eating about 725 kcals a day while the soybean/canola group was at 800 kcals.

    To me it appears that you are starting out with a strong bias against skeptvet and then proceed to take things out of context, read into whatever he writes your own skewed interpretation and then call him out. Makes no sense to me.

    As I said if you look to his peer review he has scored some pretty high marks!

    in reply to: HELP: Mixing Coconut Oil & Food #125932 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Amber,

    I too would advise against mixing coconut oil into food and then storing it. And as your feeding a puppy be aware of how many calories you are adding. Guidelines from veterinary nutritionists are that no more then 10% of calories should come from unbalanced sources and meeting your dogs nutrient needs is most important during growth. Personally I wouldn’t be adding coconut oil to my dog’s diet but in small amounts it shouldn’t hurt anything.

    The skeptvet article is really well balanced and well written.
    Perhaps the best to judge skeptvet are his peers, other veterinarians, and in that respect he is highly regarded. He’s served as peer reviewer for multiple journals including the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association and served as president of the Evidence Based Veterinary Medical Association. His own papers have been accepted for publication in peer reviewed journals. He has also been an invited speaker at veterinary conferences both in the states and the U.K. All in all he’s what I’d call a Rock Star. You don’t get those types of positions if you are not credible and reliable and as unbiased as one can be.

    in reply to: What’s your take on this from the FDA #125409 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    I haven’t heard of any dogs on any of those diets having diet related DCM.

    in reply to: calcium levels in dog food #125399 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Dinamul D,

    To your post I’d add that the AAFCO has set the upper limit at 1.8 % calcium for growing large breeds, which they define as above 75 lbs mature weight, and that for both the AAFCO and NRC calcium percentages the energy density of the diet is defined as 4000 kcals/kg DM. Adjustments based on energy density should be made for diets that vary from this.

    In regards to NRC levels, the min. calcium for growing pups is 0.8%, the recommended level is reported as 1.2% and the safe upper limit is set at 1.8 %

    in reply to: What’s your take on this from the FDA #125398 Report Abuse

    aimee
    Member

    Hi Crazy4cats,
    Good Link!

    I think it is important to note that not all diet responsive DCM cases test low in taurine meaning other factors likely in play.

    Also somewhat surprising to me was the very high percentage of dogs on raw diets that tested low in taurine. Based on the small sample size it appears that simply feeding a lot of meat/organ doesn’t correlate with normal taurine levels. I guess this shouldn’t be too surprising considering the Wynn study: the cats were fed raw ground rabbit and many developed cardiomyopathy.

    Biological systems are complex!


    aimee
    Member

    Hi Anon,

    Thanks for posting this. This mirrors the turkey outbreak in which numerous people were infected, most through handling turkey for their own consumption. However, two children became ill, one severely with osteomyelitis, through product that was used to produce raw dog food.

    I see in this outbreak as well one person reported to have contacted through the raw diet fed to their pet.

    This report reminds me of the important work of the One Health initiative. The health of people and animals is interconnected. These outbreaks serve as a call to improve the health of the flocks and the processing of poultry to prevent the problem at the source.
    And a reminder for everyone to practice good hygiene and safety measures whenever working with any animal based protein whether intended for people or pets, kibble included.

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