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November 15, 2022 at 5:43 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185310 Report Abuse
I too have gotten “the list” through the donations I’ve made, however I do not ever use it to guide what products I choose. I think her efforts are admirable, but after looking at nutritional analysis from products that have been on the list, directly interacting with the companies or reading FDA inspection reports from companies on “the list”, I find myself vehemently disagreeing with her choices. As I said, I think her personal beliefs cloud her judgement.
While the mechanism is still a mystery, the link between certain types of diet and DCM is very well supported. To the best of my knowledge there is no breed susceptibility that has been identified to this specific form of DCM.November 13, 2022 at 12:23 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185303 Report Abuse
I’m familiar with Susan Thixton and am a financial supporter. I appreciate her passion for shedding light on issues within the pet industry and for posting original documents acquired through FOIA.
However, while I support her core mission, I do find myself frequently disagreeing with her conclusions, for example her handling of DCM. I think her passion and beliefs cloud her judgement.November 12, 2022 at 6:22 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185301 Report Abuse
I assure you the information did not ome from a “kibble company which is losing money to non kibble raw brands” It is a closed group of independent shop owners and service providers. The threads there are some of the most interesting behind the scenes looks at the pet industry: moldy products, products that are frequently infested with the red legged ham beetle (apparently, it is routine for shop owners to freeze their dry natural chews upon arrival to try and kill them) products that come in with very offensive odors,
I have no reason not to believe this individual who is a staunch supporter of feeding raw foods, which IMO is why the information was posted, to inform other shop owners of this practice.
I have no desire to feed freeze dried food, just “not my jam” I do feed a wide variety of commercial foods and food types, along with home cooked. It isn’t uncommon for my dog to have products from 3 -4 different manufactures every day.November 11, 2022 at 3:11 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185289 Report Abuse
I’m familiar with the HPP process but thank you for posting that information for others. I think that HPP is probably the most common method currently in use as a kill step, if a company is using a kill step.
I personally have had communication with three separate companies of freeze-dried products who reported that they heat the product after the freeze drying process. One company reported that they heated the product to 170 degrees and held it at that temperature for 1 hour.
I will not name the companies because their processes may or may not have changed since I talked to them, but at the time of conversation they reported that is what they did.
Microwaving was discussed in an industry forum, and it was disclosed who apparently was using this method as a kill step after the freeze-drying process. I’d consider the individual reporting on it fairly well known in the industry. They stated that they verified the claim.
I do agree kibble is a convenience food, just as are any of the commercially prepared diets, be they freeze dried, commercial raw, or canned.November 10, 2022 at 5:45 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185287 Report Abuse
By writing “I agree that kibble should always have synthetic vitamins/minerals since Pet food manufacturers know their food is devoid of nutrition … so they add synthetic premixes. And pet owners know kibble isn’t as good as real food, so they add supplements.” in the post following my post, it makes it appear that you are agreeing with me.
I just want to clarify that I absolutely do not agree with the above statement. As I said, I believe such statements to be marketing spin.
It may interest you to know that in talking with multiple companies of freeze-dried products, I’ve found that some, including some of the companies you mentioned, have reported that after freeze drying the food, they heat and hold it at temps high enough to kill pathogens. Some companies shared they used conventional heat and others apparently by microwave. Yet they still market the food as “raw” which to me is odd since the times and temps they subject the food to are those used to cook food.
I do agree that the more you read the more confusing it can become. It is interesting to me to read publications put out by the pet industry. For example, food rotation is primarily recommended to guard against “out of stocks ” Shop keepers want to condition their customers to feel comfortable switching products so that if they are out of product A, they can sell you product B and keep the sale in house vs you going elsewhere for product A. Which brands they carry has to do with profit margin, availability and exclusivity. If /when a product enters new markets, making it easy for you to get it at other venues, shops will drop the line. Shops want you to have to return to them for purchase. Ditto for why some push frozen raw as “best”(it isn’t easily available online or in most larger stores). If someone else has exclusivity rights to a brand, a line within the brand or for brands that are widely available, shop owners may try to come up with reasons that sound plausible as to why they do not carry that product in an effort to try to switch you to a brand they can get. Shops offer sales contests, brands sponsor same. Get X number of people to switch to brand C (higher profit margin) and win a prize.
So yeah, it is confusing!November 9, 2022 at 11:16 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185284 Report Abuse
It is understandable why anyone would be confused.
What is known is that a form of DCM, a malady which is usually progressive and fatal, has been found to be reversible with diet change. Its development is associated with diets with pea and potato ingredients high in the ingredient list but has been seen in a variety of diets including raw.
On one hand we have veterinary cardiologists and nutritionists doing research and reporting findings in an effort to prevent further cases and deaths. On the other hand, is the pet industry and legume industry who IMO are distributing information/misinformation an effort to retain sales.
Some companies with small market share have a large percentage of cases, and other companies with large market share, for all practical purposes haven’t had confirmed cases even though they sell diets high in suspect ingredients.
I don’t think I can say that all grain free diets or diets using suspect ingredients are bad, some are likely very good, but how do we identify them? IMO it isn’t necessarily the presence of an ingredient but the overall formulation of the diet. Some companies apparently do use and have used these ingredients successfully. Hill’s Pet Nutrition to the best of my knowledge has not had any reported cases in the diet you mentioned or their therapeutic diets which appear to be high in potato. Tha said until more is known I choose not to feed diets high in suspect ingredients until more is known.
In the face of incomplete information, veterinarians, who have pet’s health as their primary interest, are making recommendations. Vets often make health recommendations with incomplete information. IMO they are a conservative bunch putting health first, figure out the cause later. don’t gamble. 1. Avoid diets with suspect ingredients high on the ingredient list 2. Feed products with large market share that do not have case reports. To take it one step further feed diets from companies that have proven themselves by making diets that reverse this condition. If a dog needs to be on a diet with suspect ingredients, screen every 6 months for DCM by echocardiology.
Aflatoxin is a concern with both grains and non-grain ingredients but more so with grains. Diligent screening of ingredients prevents this toxicity in pet foods just as it does in human foods. Company matters
I’m suspect of any diet that does not use added vitamins/minerals. According to NRC natural source are often not bioavailable and the levels were based on bioavailable sources. Personally, I think this statement “Synthetic vitamin packs are always added to highly processed dog food because nutrients are cooked out due to the high heat.” has a strong element of marketing spin.
I think this is how we all feel “I can only HOPE I’m making an educated choice” The criteria I use i know are not what others use. Everyone has their own philosophy. I tend to avoid small companies.
If I was going to look for a freeze dried, I’d probably start with Natures Variety. Other companies making freeze dried and raw foods have failed to meet my criteria.November 7, 2022 at 6:36 pm in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185257 Report Abuse
To be clear then, are you saying that you asked, “Why is Science Diet still selling grain free food with peas’ as second ingredient?” when you have no direct knowledge that Science Diet actually is selling a diet with peas as the second ingredient? That’s seems odd to me.
Unfortunately, the myths and facts you posted appears to have been written for the purpose of confusing the consumer. This is evident by its use of the “straw man’s argument” which is a logic fallacy.
I suspect it was written by someone in the pet industry with a vested interest in selling suspect diets.November 7, 2022 at 11:00 am in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185255 Report Abuse
My understanding is that there are reports of non taurine DCM in cats eating suspect diets who have had longer survival times if diet after diet change. So it appears that there could be an association. Case numbers appear to be fairly rare compared to cases in dogs. Here is a survey you might find interesting.
Personally, I think that since apparently there are no dietary DCM cases reported in dogs on the therapeutic diets with suspect ingredients and so few reports overall in cats I would think the risk very very low but not zero.
For cats who do not have a medical for need a diet high in suspect ingredients I would avoid them.
For cats who need a diet high in a suspect ingredient due to another medical condition I think it is an issue best discussed with your veterinarian.
Personally, I think regulatory really dropped the ball for consumers. I’m not aware of any follow-up testing after declaring their initial tests inconclusive. I suspect perhaps they ran out of funds to devote to the issue.
It is rather disheartening that the case is progressing so slowly. Apparently, a third-party expert has done a site visit and the case is still active. Earth Animal, to the best of my knowledge has not issued any formal updates after this visit took place.
Personally, I’d encourage anyone interested in the issue to soak both a No Hide and labeled rawhide in non- iodized salt water until well hydrated, let it partially dry and then apply a tanning process to each product and decide for themselves.November 6, 2022 at 11:59 am in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185211 Report Abuse
Which formula you are referring to?
From my understanding, currently, there have not been documented cases of dietary DCM when using therapeutic veterinary diets from Hill’s, Purina and Royal Canin containing suspect ingredients. ( There is a documented taurine case from U/D)
I think it is possible to make a well formulated diet using suspect ingredients, but personally, I avoid diets with suspect ingredients high up in the ingredient list no matter who makes them. If I needed to feed such a diet, I’d screen for DCM every 6 months via echocardiogram by a boarded cardiologist.October 29, 2022 at 10:57 am in reply to: Wondering why foods with high pea/bean content still on recommended list… #185161 Report Abuse
Something to keep in mind are legal ramifications. Apparently, some companies making suspect diets are investing heavily in legal services, sending cease and desist letters and calling individuals to threaten them with litigation. Veterinarians, breeders and people with a social media influence who have provided diet advice based on current science have all been targeted.
IMO there is a strong disinformation campaign coming from industry, not unlike that which occurred after cancer was first linked to smoking. It appears that there is heavy funding by the legume industry and manufacturers of suspect diets.
To keep up with current research on this issue visit https://www.alltradesdvm.com/topics/diet-associated-dcm/dcm-research-list?fbclid=IwAR1DCX5vNToay8o_t3oDSgc51mkz78Zyb1BOYtcMCJF7gH66ZJSUdWedRJw
It has been 2 years since a class action was filed that alleges Earth Animal’s No Hide contain rawhide; the case is still pending.
Recap: On July 27,2017 Susan Thixton raised the question ” Is No-Hide Dog Treat Actually Hide?” on Truth About Pet Food. Also in 2017, the FDA apparently tried to answer the same question, but it appears they could not. Results on sample number 1020257, “4 inch Earth Animal No-Hide Chicken Chews” “were “inconclusive as to whether or not product contains rawhide.”.
In 2018, The Dept of Ag., Penn. investigated. They interpreted the test they had done at Penn State as “inconclusive.” They asked Dr Brooks “to determine whether or not animal hide (skin and related structures) is present.” Dr Brooks was not even able to identify a labeled rawhide as skin saying, “they are no longer identifiable by this method.” I think one reason the rawhide sample could not be identified as skin is because the structures needed to identify skin, like hair and oil glands, are in the layer of the skin that is removed at the tannery. Interestingly though, Dr. Brooks starts his report with “All slides….” indicating that both the rawhide samples and the No Hide samples appeared similar enough to each other that he did not find it necessary to describe them separately. This I feel was a very important finding because a chew made from skin, I would think, should look very different from one made with plants.
“Microscopic examination of dog chews.” was published on June 20, 2020. Susan Thixton made a post about the study. From the abstract “Two products labeled as rawhide free appeared similar to the dermis [ a skin layer].” In the comment section, Earth Animal appears to claim that one of those two products was No Hide. They also report in reference to one of the authors ” She has already been served a Cease-and-Desist Letter by Earth Animal threatening to institute legal proceedings. ” Apparently, in a Sept.26, 2018, e-mail there was mention of a plan to test and submit for publication a study looking at various types of dog chews. That e-mail apparently reached Earth Animal, and the author of the email received a letter dated Oct. 5th, 2018, to “serve as a notice of potential litigation” making it look to me that Earth Animal did not want the researcher to investigate dog chews.
The lawsuit was filed Oct 12, 2020. A quote from the lawsuit reads, “A recent study was published….. According to Defendants, one of their products, a No-Hide chew, was included in the study and was found to contain rawhide….”. In my opinion, that study triggered the filing of the class action because :1. The apparent statement made by Earth Animal . 2.The study is a reference for how chews labeled rawhide and rawhide-free look under a microscope. Broadly speaking, in the study, the chews tested that had a starch ingredient like flour in them, had a blue background, while labeled rawhide samples stained red (H & E stain). Penn State lab reported Earth Animal No Hide stained red with H & E stain.
On Dec.23,2020 Earth Animal reported. “Ms. Beveridge has agreed to put the lawsuit on hold for 4 months, to give the parties the opportunity to develop a mutually-agreeable protocol which will appoint one or more credentialed experts to conduct a site visit.” To the best of my knowledge a site visit did not occur during the 4-month period, and to the best of my knowledge the lawsuit resumed. I have not found any other formal updates issued by Earth Animal.
Two years after filing, the case is reported as pending. My understanding is that judges can dismiss cases for lack of merit. Initially, Judge Janet Bond Arterton was reported as judge and now Judge Omar A Williams is listed. It appears to me that 2 different judges have overseen this case and neither has dismissed it.
It may be years before the legal case is resolved, but until then pet parents can decide for themselves what this product is made from. Reading all the original test results, documents, and e-mails on Truth about Pet Food.is a good place to start if you desire more information about this product. Also, you can test the product yourself. Iodine changes color if starch is present. The No Hide chew roll’s main ingredient appears to be rice flour, a starch containing ingredient. Open a No Hide treat. Put iodine on an inner piece that is free of any of the flavor coating. Also put iodine on the flavor coating, then compare your results.
I think this again can relate to the fact that there is no legal definition for the word “rawhide” as it applies to pet food ingredients and chews. In a very broad sense, rawhide means untanned skin and pig skin would fall into that definition.
Merriam Webster defines rawhide as untanned cattle skin, and while I’ve seen in common use the term rawhide applied to hides of elk, deer, bison and cattle, I have not seen it applied to describe pig skin.
For me personally, I wouldn’t “ding” the manufacturer for the rawhide free claim especially because they disclose that the product is skin.
Is pig skin “safer”? IMO no, because I think one of biggest concerns with skin-based chews is attempting to swallow a large piece leading to choking or swallowing a large piece and having it stuck in the esophagus. I do not see a difference between the two in that regard.
Since it will be 2 years since the filing of the lawsuit. I plan on posting an update on what
I know. and don’t know.October 8, 2022 at 3:36 pm in reply to: black spots in canned food due to mineral reaction? #184850 Report Abuse
My understanding is that black spots can occur in canned foods due to a reaction during the canning process with minerals in the diet. They should not affect quality. However, I’d report the lot number to the manufacturer so they can double check.
Hi Newzell Z,
Good for you for recognizing and addressing your dog’s weight. Your concern that he is not getting a balanced diet is spot on based on the ingredients you shared.
Using a commercial diet formulated for weight loss or a homemade diet for weight loss formulated by a veterinary nutritionist would be the way to go.
Determine the number of calories he is currently eating. Cut back by 20% (assuming no health concerns) and weigh the food for each meal to ensure proper calorie intake. Weigh him every week to monitor weight loss. If he isn’t losing, you’ll need to cut back calories more. If you get to a point where you are feeding less than the recommended serving consult your vet. Consider using a weight loss food formulated by Purina, Royal Canin, Iams/Eukaneuba or Hill’s Pet nutrition.
The reason I researched carrageenan was because my own dog had suspected IBD, was on a novel protein diet and the canned versions contained that ingredient. At first I was concerned because of all the negative “press” given to carrageenan, however after reading the scientific literature I was comfortable with the ingredient.
Of course any animal can have an individual intolerance to any ingredient but it sounds like your dog is doing well on her current diet.
Hi Shawshank S,
I’d agree with Crazy4cats.
I home cook part of my dog’s diet and I use the balanceit supplement.
I calculated out the following for you. Making some assumptions.
NRC recommends .13 grams calcium /body weight in kg to the .75 power If your Golden weighs 70 lbs that calculates out to about 1740 mg calcium/day.
Your major calcium containing ingredients are
200 mls yogurt provide about 350 mg calcium
2 cups cooked spinach about 500 mg calcium
So using my assumptions you are providing about 1/2 of the NRC recommended daily amount of calcium and close to the NRC min amount of calcium, which my understanding assumes a high level of absorption, something that may not be achieved using spinach. Spinach is high in oxalates, which binds calcium. Cooking spinach does decrease oxalate, but personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable relying on spinach to meet my dog’s calcium needs because of variable calcium absorption and the high oxalate content.
Looking at Vit D, NRC recommended amount for a 70 lb dog is ~240 IU/day, your major source is egg yolk. 2 yolks are~ 80 IU If you use vit D fortified yogurt that may be making up the difference depending on level of fortification.
I think you need a nutritionist to evaluate this diet for you.
This is perfectly understandable “What my attitude probably boils down to is my lack of faith in the good faith of large companies” There is no perfect pet food company, all fall short in my eyes in some aspect. But I will say that after having talked to numerous pet food manufacturers I tend to find the most egregious problems and lack of basic nutritional understnding in smaller companies. The larger companies don’t have the “pretty ” ingredient labels but I’ve come to appreciate what i see as a vested interest in nutrition, something I think is lacking in many companies.
Fair enough, you’d like a more detailed answer. What led me to say that you have been misled by marketing information is because you said you’d learned it was an empty filler. From a nutritional standpoint a filler is something without nutritional benefit. Air, water and fiber would meet that definition, yet even fiber can have benefits for the colon. Corn supplies essential amino acids , essential fatty acids, vitamins, antioxidants, and energy and therefore it does not meet the definition of “filler”
I would respectively disagree with DFA that corn is only of marginal nutritional value. Certainly it is not a complete food and its primary value is being a source of energy but it has attributes that I believe elevate it from marginal status.
A place to dive deeper is to utilize Pub Med to read the original research on the use of corn as an ingredient in pet foods. This is a decent review article https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34078195/ but the true value is in mining the references and reading those supporting papers.
It has been years since I went through and read all the research on corn. As I recall, one of the unique features of corn is the amino acid profile that is relatively high in the essential sulfur containing amino acids. This may be important when formulating a controlled protein food yet need to meet essential amino acids.
In regards to modifying a diet for kidney patients, controlling phosphorus is key Protein is a source of phosphorus and my understanding is that when using plant based protein the phosphorus is less absorbable. This could be desired for a kidney patient.
For me corn is neither “good” or “bad” it just is… and like anything has pros and cons.
I’d also think that other factors weigh in as to what ingredients are chosen as a means to supply nutrients.
If you learned that corn was an empty filler then I’m afraid you have been misled, which is understandable, given the marketing tactics commonly deployed in regards to selling pet foods.
Perhaps the shortest answer to the question is to say that veterinary nutritionists, when formulating foods, determine which nutrients they want to deliver and which need to be controlled and then choose ingredients and how they work together to accomplish that goal. The ingredients are simply a mechanism to achieve a certain nutrient profile.
My understanding is that struvite crystals are quite common and a normal finding in dogs which do not require any specific treatment. They are a concern there is a history of sterile struvite stone formation. which is very rare. Most struvite stones form secondary to infection and my understanding is diet will not prevent urinary infection or stone formation secondary to infection.
“Struvite crystalluria occurs in greater than 50% of healthy dogs, including animals without urinary tract infections”https://www.dvm360.com/view/stones-vs-crystals-management-and-prevention-proceedings
Since leaking urine at night is a new sign consider checking for infection or presence of other contributing factors or causes.
I would consider SO to be a high quality nutritious foodAugust 4, 2021 at 7:26 pm in reply to: Is there dog food low in protein AND low in fat 4 renal failure AND pancreatitis #172700 Report Abuse
I took a look at Dr Harvey’s and I didn’t find any nutritional information. I found that concerning.
When using Dr Harvey’s Canine Health what is the composition of the final diet you are currently making in regards to grams protein /1000 kcals, the amino acid profile, grams fat/1000 kcals the omega 3 content and grams phosphorus/1000 kcals.
I’ve used balanceit with good success and appreciate all the detailed nutritional information given there, which is so important to have when feeding a dog with multiple medical conditions.
Hi Crazy4 Cats,
The best you can say is you have to look at the individual foods nutrient profiles and the resulting mix. There is so much “marketing spin” and no consistency across brands in regards to the profiles used for a “senior”food or a “weight loss” food.
What a senior needs is individual to that particular dog or cat. What a dog needs for weight loss is individual to that dog. I tend to not look at what the foods are being marketed as being, and instead look at the product’s nutrient profiles and match to the needs of my dog.
Hi J B,
This is an interesting question and I’ll give you my thoughts. When two complete and balanced foods are mixed the resulting mixture is complete and balanced. However, feeding for weight loss is a special situation, a complete and balanced food, when fed to achieve weight loss, may not meet nutrient needs.
This is because nutrient levels in foods are tied to an assumed average intake. Because a caloric deficit is needed to achieve weight loss, weight loss foods need to be fortified with nutrients so that when feeding fewer calories a dogs nutrient needs are met.
In this situation you are asking if feeding a presumed fortified with a non fortified food will meet the dogs needs. To answer that you’d need to know the nutrient levels of each food to calculate the levels in the resulting mix, factor in the amount being fed and then compare to needs.
To add to the puzzle is that the nutrients in the vitality formula to support senior health will be being fed at a lower level which may or may not affect outcome.
You said your dog weighs 83 lbs. How much of the vitality formula is she eating a day? What other calorie sources are consumed? Treats, Supplements, dental chews etc. In my experience, Hill’s feeding guidelines are well calculated and so if currently she is consuming an amount at the higher end of the feeding recommendations I’d simply cut back to the lower range and trim other sources. If however she is already consuming at the lower end of the Vitality feeding range, and you would need to feed less than the recommended amount of that diet to achieve weight loss I’d consider switching completely over to a weight loss formula
Finally, Hill’s has a vet support service and you can ask your vet to contact Hill’s, discuss your particular dog, and get customized feeding advice.
So sorry to hear that the issues with Wanda are not fully resolved.
There isn’t a private message feature on Dog Food Advisor. I usually check the comments section and forums on a regular basis so you can catch me here!
I’m glad you found the information helpful. It is hard to believe that it has been a little over 3 1/2 years since my initial post when I, like you, tried to recreate a No Hide using labeled ingredients. It is interesting to note that when the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture sent Salmon No Hide for testing the lab reported a protein content of 88.49%. This suggests that the water, carbohydrate, fat, and ash taken together would be ~ 11.5%. Starch test results were reported as 0.5% . Truly baffling to me when I consider the reported ingredients. It appears to me that there is an unreported nitrogen source in this product. ( In lab analysis protein is estimated based on nitrogen testing) and I have no explanation for the very low reported starch content in a product which lists brown rice flour as the second ingredient.
There is a lot of information since posted about this product and a current class action suit that alleges the product contains rawhide.
I don’t know that there are any truly “safe” chews. There is risk and benefit in everything. If looking for a consumable dental chew I’d suggest you choose from the Veterinary Oral Health Council accepted products for dogs list. Personally, I look for a product that was found effective against plaque and I appreciate that Greenies are formulated to meet AAFCO maintenance making it easy to incorporate them into a feeding plan without concern of unbalancing the diet. Keep in mind that just as we need to see a dentist regularly despite daily brushing and flossing, your dog also needs to be treated by a veterinarian on a regular basis.
I responded on the other thread you posted.
Hi Sue H,
It is not the acid (pH) that is causing the lawn burn.. it is the nitrogen which comes from protein in her food. The effect you are seeing is similar to what happens when you dump too much lawn fertilizer in one location.
The solution is to generously water the areas where she has eliminated. If you fertilize your lawn often this contributes to the problem. Consider using a diet that meets but does not greatly exceed her protein requirements so that less ends up on the lawn. Consider adding water to her diet to try to increase her comsumption and dilute out her urine. Please consult your veterinarian for advice.May 8, 2021 at 12:25 am in reply to: Collagen Chews?? Beef Chews?? Are Some Just Rawhide Renamed?? #168929 Report Abuse
I’d encourage you to read all the original documents that are posted on TAPF I found them very interesting.May 7, 2021 at 11:28 pm in reply to: Calorie Totals per day between canned/dry versus Farmers Dog/ Honest Kitchen #168928 Report Abuse
You are welcome.
So sorry you and your dog are going through this. I hope she is feeling better.May 6, 2021 at 5:42 pm in reply to: Collagen Chews?? Beef Chews?? Are Some Just Rawhide Renamed?? #168898 Report Abuse
So sorry to learn of your experience. Hope your dog is felling better. Always report any suspected adverse events to your state feed control official and to the FDA.February 2, 2021 at 4:30 pm in reply to: Red meat or White meat based diet for Working English Cocker Spaniels? #165186 Report Abuse
Here is a link to an article about the case https://www.petfoodprocessing.net/articles/14378-champion-petfoods-resolves-two-mislabeling-lawsuits
As I remember it Champion marketed their trout as “wild caught” and used imagery of a fisherman in waders, standing in a stream and holing a pole. Apparently the fish in their products was/is farm raised.
As I recall they marketed their chicken as “Free Run” accompanied by images of chickens freely foraging in what I’d call spacious scenic wide open field. Apparently the chickens are raised indoors without any access to outdoors.
Apparently Champion said it was “an inadvertent oversight” that they claimed the trout was wild caught and will “provide better clarity” on the term “free run”
It is more common to have environmental allergies the food allergies . As i understand it ,characteristics of food allergy are signs starting under 1 year of age, Itchy butts and ears, Skin signs combined with GI signs like more than 2 stools a day and “sensitive stomach” make food allergy be more likely than environmental. Itchy paws alone may more commonly be environmental signs. Some dogs have both.
Parasite or bacterial or yeast infections and contact reactions can also cause itching. Best place to start is at your veterinarian. There are no accurate tests for food allergy. Very specific diet trials are used to diagnose. Additionally, testing for environmental allergies is done to select which allergens to include for desensitization, not to diagnose allergy.
I believe that there are foods in the Pro Plan line formulated for skin support.January 29, 2021 at 8:31 am in reply to: Red meat or White meat based diet for Working English Cocker Spaniels? #165134 Report Abuse
Hi Charles, I’m assuming you are questioning feeding a high red meat content based on concerns in people of higher rates of certain types of cancer associated with red meat consumption. There is very little data on this question in dogs . There is a study that found an association with red meet consumption and mammary cancer in dogs. I think it was a retrospective study and I don’t know how robust the data or conclusions.
That said, I’ve been disappointed with answers that Champion Petfoods has given to me when I’ve inquired about their foods and the recent class action resolution in which apparently their fish advertised as “wild caught” was farmed fish and the chicken advertised as “free run” apparently was conventionally raised poultry makes me question the company honesty and integrity. When i combine that with the FDA apparent association with foods produced by Champion Petfoods and DCM it isn’t a company whose product I’d feel comfortable feeding.
I’m not sure where it it you saw corn listed as a high glyvemic food, I see it routinely listed as moderate. Additionally high glycemic foods have not been identified as a cause of diabetes in people( see ADA) and they are not a cause of diabetes in canines. Diabetes is not caused by diet.
Finally, dogs are biologically considered omnivores because of their metabolic pathways align with that classification such as ability to convert B carotene to Vit A which is something the cat, classified as a carnivore, is unable to do.
As Crazy4cas posted corn can be a well utilized component of the canine diet .November 22, 2020 at 11:52 pm in reply to: Collagen Chews?? Beef Chews?? Are Some Just Rawhide Renamed?? #164259 Report Abuse
I posted back a few days ago but it never showed up here , so at some point this may be a duplicate post. Interestingly when I tried to search for more info on the class action suit I found a different suit filed by Sage Fulfillment LLC involving Earth Animal Ventures
The only way to diagnose food hypersensitivity is by a food elimination trial. I think Ultamino is a good choice to use for a elimination trial. You can read about food allergies and doing food trial here https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=4951526
Be aware of anything that crosses your dog’s lips. Sources of food triggers that you my not think of could include capsules from medications, sources from scavenging outside, stool consumption from cat boxes or other dogs in the house etc.
Doing an elimination trial correctly is challenging. Good Luck!November 11, 2020 at 9:48 pm in reply to: Collagen Chews?? Beef Chews?? Are Some Just Rawhide Renamed?? #163976 Report Abuse
My understanding, at least in the state I reside in, is that chews do not have to comply with AAFCO labeling unless they also make a claim that could be considered a nutritional claim. This could be something like “easily digestible” or “source of protein”. I think it is up to the feed control official to decide if the product is making a nutritional claim. This could be why, in my opinion, there is no AAFCO definition for the term”rawhide”. I think, that without a definition, this opens the door for manufacturers to market their hide based products as “rawhide free” when making a nutritional claim
This isn’t to say though that a chew, such as rawhide, because it doesn’t have to meet AAFCO labeling is not regulated. Rawhide is considered “food” by the FDA and so it has to comply with the FD&C act of 1938 and can come under regulation if adulterated.
It seems to me that many are confused on this point, resulting in people reporting/saying that rawhide is not regulated and since it is not regulated ,it may be a source of significant levels of toxins. In actuality the risk is likely no different than other sources of pet food.. This misunderstanding, in my opinion, is then exploited and used to market “rawhide alternatives” , which in some cases appear to be made of the same tissue as rawhide, yet are being sold at a much higher price point . I think consumers are willing to pay this higher price because they think this product is “safe” and chews labeled as rawhide are not safe.
Hi Summer G,
Do you have a facebook accnt ? I may have just sent a message to you. : )
The Fresh Pet rolls give serving amounts in pounds but the bagged meals list it in cups.
What is your dogs body condition score and weight? As a general guideline on a 9 point body condition scale each point is ~ 10 % weight. So, for example, if the dog body condition score is 6 and weight is 18 pounds the ideal weight would be ~ 18 – 1.8 + 16.2 lbs
Hope that helps.
I agree … thanks to Dr Mike for creating this forum in which we can all help and learn from each other.
Hi crazy4xats and Sheila,
Thanks for the kind works. It makes me happy to know that others find my posts useful.
Hmmm….I was afraid of that..it appears the company just gave you a number to make the kcals/kg and Kcals/cup to match vs having accurate information.
Personally, it makes me nervous when a company’s information doesn’t “add” up. You could try recontacting them and see what they say.
Hopefully they will fix the website. To confirm what you were told is correct weight out 87 grams of food and then see if it is a level cup . If you don’t have a kitchen scale consider investing in one . Using a cup can be highly inaccurate and accuracy is needed when on a weight loss program.
If you feed a cup it will be more calories then you were feeding 1 cup Fresh Pet..
I come from a point of we don’t know what we don’t know. and since I try to eat all the colors of the rainbow I share. About the only “patch”, if you want to cal it that, is that I’ll add fish oil for omega 3.
When I add a significant amount of fresh food to the kibble base I’ll follow a recipe to make a complete and balanced diet. Based on reviewing posted N.A.’s I’d disagree that commercial foods have 200-600% of essential vitamins and minerals. In fact I’ve seen many posted N.A. that don’t even meet AAFCO minimums! The companies themselves seem unaware of this perhaps becausee they do not have nutritionists on staff. Additionally, if a particular dog has low energy requirements, even foods that meet AAFCO nutrient tables may not provide adequate nutrition.
I took a look at the website so I could calculate out how much to feed if you wanted to feed 80% of her current intake. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear that the information on the website is correct. For Dr Tim’s Metabolic it reports that there are 3027 kcals/kg and 268 kcals/cup (116 grams) Something is off … 3027 kcals/kg = 3.027 kcals /grams if there are 116 grams in a cup each cup would have 116 x 3.027 =351kcals not the reported 268.
You should call the manufacturer and see if you can get the correct information.
If you have been feeding one cup a day and she is 20 lbs and needs to lose weight then you’d have to feed less food. In general, a calculated value can be off by 50% meaning some dogs would only need 1/2 cup. of fresh pet to lose weight. But at these levels the dog may feel hungry and because the food isn’t formulated for weight loss she may not get all the nutrient needs met.
If she isn’t getting treats, table tid bits, or dental chews, to cut 80% of calories you’d be feeding 3.75 ounces of Fresh Pet a day. this may not meet her nutrient needs. To me It looks like you’d need to change foods for a safe weight loss program for her.