[sienna11711]

Hi all, any bit of advice or insight?

9 year old spayed female boxer, 56 pounds, eating 3 cups of Victor Professional Formula daily.

For the last 9 months we have been dealing with:

Behavior-wise
-restless
-sleeps a lot less during the day, wakes up earlier to eat
-clingy, doesn’t stop following me
-frantic and fearful when outside
-extreme reactivity to dogs that gets WORSE with more food (I know this sounds crazy)
-flinches when being pet
-will nip at strangers who get too close to her body (not always, still likes people a lot and always wants to say hi)
-will nip if you try to pick her up or move her
-doesn’t play or cuddle
-pees a lot on walks

Digestion/health-wise
-ravenous, always looking for food
-eats other dog’s poop on walks
-previously regurgitated kibble everyday, hours later
-previously struggled with chronic UTIs (low immunity)
-frantic in the AM about eating
-drinks excessively after checking empty food bowl
-shedding excessively
-anal glands leaking and peeing herself while she sleeps
-fat such as fish oil makes her nauseous / may vomit
-cannot digest real food period (ie. rice and boiled chicken, cooked veggies, cooked ground turkey, or raw meat)
-with the above food her stool is orange and slimy
-stool has changed over time since adoption at age 7 from pooping way too much but now it is normal, firm, brown

Labwork
-consistently low T4 despite using levothyroxine, took her off in Jan 2020
-T4 goes up into normal range when she is on anxiety medicine
-extremely high/out of range TLI
-high cPL
-has, at times, had very high PSL randomly
-no diabetes, no cushings, NOTHING glaring us in the face

-We have tried every digestive supplement you can think of and many different foods including grain free, with grains, dehydrated cooked, dehydrated raw, actual raw, and actual cooked
-We have worked with an animal behaviorist who does not think this is purely behavioral
-She lost 8 pounds eating up to 2 pounds of raw a day
-She is much less reactive on cooked food and raw, but will rapidly lose weight and be even hungrier
-We have also tried Hills Science Diet wet food for IBD, orange slimy stool
-She can only really “digest” kibble

Chronic low grade pancreatitis was brought up to me on another forum but her stool is totally normal, so not too sure.
I do think that whatever “this” is affects her thyroid function but the thyroid itself is not the root cause- vet agrees
I just recently began putting enzymes in her food and incubating 20 min with warm water– will see if any improvement

[Patricia A]

Wow that’s a lot of abnormal symptoms without the vet resolving any. Seems like they are guessing and giving possibly unneeded medications since it never resolved the problems. No definitive diagnosis of hypothyroidism but put on that medication could cause more symptoms .
Has the vet given a cause of the constant UTI’s? Were these her symptoms?
( The most common cause of UTIs in dogs is bacteria, which enters upwards through the urethral opening. The bacteria can develop when feces or debris enter the area, or if your dog’s immune system is weakened from lack of nutrients.
In most cases, E. coli is the bacterium that causes such infections. In more severe, but less common cases, causes include cancer, bladder disease, kidney disease and stones, diabetes, bladder inflammation or infection, spinal cord abnormalities, and prostate disease.)
Symptoms of UTIs in Dogs
Bloody and/or cloudy urine
Straining or whimpering during urination
Accidents in the house
Wanting to be let outside more frequently
Dribbling urine
Licking around urinary opening
Fever
If not then is it possible she never had constant UTI’s? Because if she did they at least should have found a cause and preventive treatment.
Also is it possible she has chronic pancreatitis? Then a change in dog food and given high protein and low fat diet should help. But worst thing is the constant switching of food . This will give stomach pain and diarrhea . Any switch has to be done VERY VERY VERY slowly to get used to. With the chicken was it ONLY white meat? Normally if a dog has pancreatitis they can tolerate WHITE meat boiled chicken (not from store bought seasoned already) and plain rice. Give this for a few days and a few times a day and see if she tolerated that. Give a break from meds and all the switching of foods and just work on her digestion first possibly. Have a calm place for her to eat with no excitement so the food doesn’t go right through her if she’s an anxious by nature dog. Hope this helps a little If not take her back to vet for some definitive tests and answers.

[sienna11711]

When I first adopted her she got an actual UTI with straining to urinate, constantly wanting to go out, etc. They gave her antibiotics and the symptoms went away, but when they rechecked her urine, they said there’s still so much bacteria. So they put her on them again, and still bacteria as well as crystals, but she had no symptoms so we decided to just monitor and not keep funneling with antibiotics. She also had a kidney ultrasound and was fine. When she started peeing herself in her sleep, I assumed it was UTI and so I would take her to vet and they’d find, once again, tons of bacteria in urine and prescribe, and it would make the peeing in her sleep go away temporarily, but she never had any other UTI symptoms. As for the last few months, her urine has been consistently normal and bacteria free with no UTI symptoms but she still pees in her sleep once or twice a week. I think it’s a stress thing combined with her excessive drinking due to hunger. I try to monitor as much as I can but we live in south florida so I really don’t like to limit how much she drinks.

And yes, after 9 months on levothyroxine with no change in her T4 or symptoms, I told the vet I was no longer giving it to her because I know it’s not a thyroid issue specifically. Nothing changed when I stopped giving it to her, so I knew it wasn’t making anything better.

We tried a canine nutritionist formulated home cooked diet extremely low in fat (turkey) and same thing- orange slimy stool and even worse hungry. And yes, with boiled chicken we’ve always done white only and same thing- orange slimy. I gave her a piece of pineapple last night and she threw it up undigested in the middle of the night. Weak stomach?

I did order a much lower fat food and I’ve been soaking her food in digestive enzymes (epi dog forum suggested it) so we’ll see. I just can’t understand the hunger, she literally follows me all day long and it’s even worse when it’s remotely close to feeding time.

Unfortunately the vet said it must be behavioral and suggested I make an appointment with a behaviorist.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by sienna11711.

[Patricia A]

Sienna it sounds like you’re doing everything you can. I feel so sorry for you and your pup going through all this. So frustrating when you’re trying so hard and can’t find a solution . All those antibiotics will definitely cause upset stomach and loose stool. I read this and maybe it will help a little with avoiding the UTI’s’ (Routine grooming, especially around the urinary opening, and regular bathing can help prevent bacteria from entering the urinary system. …)
I imagine the vet checked all blood work values such as liver and found them to be normal. Is she losing weight at all? I know my two dogs are ALWAYS hungary and following into kitchen even just after eating for any crumbs that may drop.
Keeping my fingers crossed for her that low fat food works for her . She’s probably so hungry all the time because the food is going right through her. I think she’s going to be more hungry with the low fat but hopefully it will stay in her stomach and won’t cause the loose stools and then you can just feed more.
My dogs will always get the diarrhea if I feed a protein high in fat. I feed freeze dried and ONLY feed the 5* flavors/proteins because the higher rating I am told means less fat. So I SLOWLY got them used to a few different brands and flavors. But if I give them a little chop meat that’s not 90% fat free they’ll get the soft stool.
Please keep updating. I hope, hope, hope the new food and enzyme does the trick.

[Patricia A]

oops forgot to put this article. Might be helpful? https://dogsfirst.ie/health-issues/pancreatitis-dogs-part-2-solution/

[sienna11711]

Yes, I clean her vulva area once a day to prevent bacteria. Luckily she has not had a UTI in a long time and her urine has been normal.
The thing is that now her stool is totally normal, firm, and brown. Her weight is stable. If I feed her more to satisfy her hunger, she becomes much more reactive and defensive.

When I was feeding her home cooked and raw she lost about 10 pounds in 3 months, no matter how much I kept feeding her, and her ribs were visible. So putting her back on kibble stabilized her physically, but nothing is preventing the behavioral issues, overall stress, and hunger. Walking her is honestly a nightmare too, because she spends the entire walk sniffing for poop and food/crumbs to eat instead of actually enjoying the walk with me.

[Susan]

Hi Sienna,
Your girl sounds just like my Patch, who I rescued November- 2012. He was weeing blood when I got him & Ultra Scan showed Urinary Crystals he was put on Royal Canine S/O Urinary Wet & dry kibble for 6 weeks to dissolve the crystals & he was desexed, I adopted him cause I didnt see any health problems probably cause he was on the R/C Vet Diet as soon as the vet said his crystals have dissolved feed him what he was eating before this is when my nightmare begun & he was always STARVING HUNGRY eating cat poo… I kept thinking Pancreatitis, but all times we checked his Pancreas its good, he cries whinges after he eats, wet food is the worst if comes back up cause it digests quicker & cause his lower sphincter flap isn’t closing properly the food comes up his esophagus & throat causing acid reflux, a Acid Blocker- Pantoprazole-20mg given in morning really helps Patch even stopped his vomiting finally in 2018 Patches stories are thru DFA Forum section how I nilly put him to sleep 2018 he was 10yrs old but we have really good vets in Australia who wouldn’t put Patch to sleep till they worked out what was happening now.
Vet changed his PPI to 20mg-Pantoprozole it works heaps better then Omeprazole , I take Pantoprazole for my GERDS & asked my vet can we please change his PPI as they all work different till you find the right one for yourself & dogs would be the same + my gastro specialist told me Pantoprazole is best when Lower Esophageal Flap isnt closing properly.

Have you done Endoscope & Biopsies yet? you need the Biopsies so vet can diagnose properly. Or ask vet can you please try the triple therapy meds for Helicobacter all dogs have Helicobacter BUT when a dogs immune system is compromised the Helicobacter takes over the dog stomach also Patch suffers with Environment Allergies in Summer causing his immune system to crash by Autunm cause its been working overtime fighting his allergies this causing bad acid reflux as well, Patch does best on an easy to digest kibble.
Canidae Pure Senior, Wellness Core Large breed adult but they changed their recipe & added Lentils Patch cant eat Lentils he gets Diarrhea, he does really well on Potato & Sweet Potato kibbles.
Patch suffers with IBD, LES =Lower Esophageal Sphincter Flap doesn’t close properly in between his stomach & esophagus causing BAD Acid reflux, 1 yr after I rescued Patch I was told my boy has IBD I didnt believe vet so I asked can we do Endoscope & Biopsies, the Biopsies came back IBD, Helicobacter Pylori he was put on Triple therapy medications for 21 days, Metronidazole & Amoxicillin given every 12 hours with a meal & a PPI -Pantoprazole or Omeprazole-20mg given in the morning before breakfast, a gluten free, low fat diet is best, no high fiber diets, 8 yrs on he still has Pain stomach area, doesn’t eat poo no more as soon as we fixed his Helicobacter & kept him on a PPI the poo eating all stopped , your girl has Pain in stomach & food relieves her stomach pain, the Helicobacter lives in their stomach walls, food stops the pain BUT 20-30mins later they’re starving again how I know is I suffered with Helicobacter when I was younger, get her on the Metronidazole, Amoxicillin & a PPI will help her you’ll see results 5-7 days..then when medications are finished after 21 days continue with teh PPI or you’ll have to do the triple therapy meds over & over again I did research & Drs found when humans stayed on their PPI medication their Helicobacter didnt have the right environment in the stomach.
There’s a few of Patches post thru DFA Forum back 2015-2018..
I havent had time yet to read your posts, I have to feed Patch now its 7pm he’s waiting, he eats 5 smaller kibble meals a day 7am,-1/2 a cup kibble, 9am-1/2 cup kibble, 12pm he either gets 1/3 cup kibble or 1/2 boiled Sweet potato, 1/2 boiled white potato with his lean Pork rissoles but he prefers his kibble some days, 5pm 1/2 cup kibble, 7pm-1/3 cup kibble 9am a dry piece of Milk Arrowroot Biscuit then at 10pm he gets 1/2 his Quick Eze Rapid Chew ant acid lollie every single night they have also found Pepto Bismol kills off the Helicobacter
Hes doing well on his Eukanuba Senior kibble we have just started 3-4 weeks ago, I have to rotate his kibbles as soon as he starts showing he has his stomach pain I change his kibble.. also the Kcals in the kibble need to be under 360Kcals per cup or he gets his pain right side..
are you on Face Book??
join “Acid reflux in Dogs” https://www.facebook.com/groups/1635198406751056
I’m on there you can msg me on f/b if you want…You’ll see Patches photo hes a English Staffy & my name is Susan B

[Susan]

I forgot Boiled White Potato helps firm poo, soothes stomach & bowel, Sweet Potato has more fiber Patch need less fiber that’s why I mix 1/2 white & 1/2 Sweet potato.
Change your vet, get all your dogs records & find a good vet who deals in IBD.
Start a kibble -“Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato kibble- not Wellness Simple wet cans as they’re too high in fat, fat in wet can, raw, dog rolls, freeze dried,air dried dog/cat foods hasn’t been converted to dry matter, so say 5%min fat is around 20%min-25%max fat when converted to dry mater fat, Times – X – the fat by 4 you will get a ruff idea what the fat% is??
You need the Triple Therapy medications, the Metronidazole is an anti-inflammatory & kills bad bacteria in stomach..

I just read a part of your last post your vet blaming Behavior – are you in USA??
Slippery Elm Powder & Mashmallow root made into a slurry will help firm poos, stop acid reflux, soothe stomach & help firm poo, given 20mins before meals,
Get 1/2 a teaspoon Slippery Elm Powder put in cup boil the jug slowly add the boiling water in cup & quickly stir & stir till you make a slurry, not too think or really thin, pull up 5mls in a syringe put the syringe side of mouth towards the back teeth, alot of dogs do REALLY well on Gastro Elm here’s the link, helps with sloppy/diarrhea & Acid reflux, Soothes stomach & esophagus start the Potato Kibble, Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato..
https://www.gastroelm.com/
Also look for the Pepto Bismol give 5ml in syringe 20mins before meals 2 times a day or try the Slipperly elm powder?Gastro Elm till you find a vet who can write script for the triple therapy meds, Im trying to write everything as I think of it, your poor girl, your vet is an idiot.. I know what poor Patch goes thru & I’ve been thru…some vets are just idiots, don’t talk with other vets when they have a hard case…their pride is too big.

[Patricia A]

Susan I read over Sienna’s post and really doesn’t sound like IBD by her description. Symptoms I always believed by others posts who’s dog’s suffered from IBD were LACK of appetite, vomiting and diahrreah. She wrote her pooch does fine on kibble. If I read in-between the lines it seems her main concern is her behavior. That being her dog is so distracted looking for food on ground that she doesn’t walk. But this really stood out in Sienna’s post…”If I feed her more to satisfy her hunger, she becomes much more reactive and defensive.”
I’m hoping Sienna replies with my question of a description of her boxer being reactive and defensive when she feeds enough for satiation. So if she’s worried about this behavior she’s feeding less then what the dog needs to ever feel full hence the content hunger?
Each dog I had the pleasure to share my life with has had little quirks in personality. Some good some I would rather them have not possessed.” My foremost concern was always their health. Personality traits I could change I worked on. Others were accepted as “that’s just the way they were born.” Gets harder if a pet was adopted past puppyhood. Never know what their situation was which led to a fearful dog, aggressive dog because of fear etc. My moms dog has submissive pee since she brought her home. Go down to pet her and she wets. Without going into detail her last owners were not too nice to her.
So what I’m getting at is for Sienna to work on what truly is a health concern causing her dog to suffer and what is a personality trait that MAYBE can be worked on or something just to accept. Just seperate the two so a NEW vet can focus on her health. Hope this makes sense.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[sienna11711]

Hi, thank you all for your attention and insight, it’s truly appreciated.

Yes I would say confidently my dog has IBD symptoms if she eats fresh food of any kind, a lot of times her body will outright reject it- gave her a piece of pineapple yesterday and she woke up in the middle of the night and expelled it, undigested.

To clarify- ALL of the behaviors LESSEN with LESS food. Right now she is eating 2 cups of food a day. If I were to up it to 3 cups, she would become more reactive, whine more after eating, demand food earlier, and she would put on some weight. 2 cups of the food she is eating is at the higher end anyway. The vet thought the answer was simple – if she is hungry, feed her more, but everything gets way worse, not just reactivity.

[sienna11711]

Sorry, the website cut off your entire post, Patricia. So for her whole life my dog was always dog friendly (albeit the more submissive one in the group) and never had any issue with people. She was my brother’s dog and I watched her grow up, she never had to be muzzled at the vet, they fostered a GSD puppy at one point with no issues.

If it was just reactivity to dogs that would be a breeze– we have never done leash greetings and we don’t go to dog parks. She still loves people and approaches them to be pet, leans on them, wants to play– it’s only when being handled or touched in certain ways that she snaps, and she has yet to even actually break skin, it’s always the lightest nip and she’s right back to being cuddly when the person gives her space. So it’s exhausting when people come over and she’s all over them and jumping on the couch and wanting to snuggle but if they make one wrong move she will flip.

Dogs who completely ignore her she will also walk right past 9 times out of 10. It’s the dogs who show interest in her, or are walking behind us advancing, or other reactive dogs (unfortunately a lot of little ones in our neighborhood seem to hate her passionately) that will set her off. It’s not so much the reaction (she just freezes or pulls toward, sometimes shes actually interested) than the resulting stress (immediately pees after, pants a ton, constantly looking over her shoulder, walks frantically and speeds up to get away). There are some real REACTIVE dogs in our complex who are genuinely reactive- barking, growling, baring teeth- she does none of these things.

That being said, my main concerns are her clinginess, obsession with food, poop eating, and how she flinches even when I touch her abdomen area. Oh… and the excessive shedding! 🙂

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by sienna11711.

[Patricia A]

Thank’s Sienna for claifying. It’s not the classic symptoms of IBD . For instance If I give my one dog a piece of raw carrot she’s fine. But with the other one she throws it up. That same dog can eat several pieces of watermelon and be fine. But now the other one will have diarrhea with one small piece .I’ve gotten to know what agrees with each of them and what they can’t tolerate digestivelly . Just like people we can have digestive problems with eating a food that others would have no problem with.
Do you believe that the whining is caused by stomach pain or just wanting more food? Does she get diarrheae (ORANGE STOOL https://www.dogsupsetstomach.com/causes-of-orange-stool-in-dogs/) or vomit kibble back up? If when you SLOWLY, SLOWLY changed to a different food did she at first start out with loose stool . Because that would be normal at least for my dogs. Then after a few weeks of gradual change over their stools were fine. If not then that particular protein/brand did not agree with them.
Sienna please don’t take me as a know-it-all. I certainly don’t. Just thought maybe I’d hit on something that is a simple fix. but maybe it is not. But i agree with Susan to find a new vet . I don’t like either that he/she dismissed as being purely behavioral. Especially since apparently she was guessing when this vet put her on all these meds thats did not help and was probably not warranted.
I found this Boxer site that IS active. Maybe you can copy/paste what you posted on this forum .
Please keep us updated. https://www.boxerforums.com

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Patricia A.

[sienna11711]

Haha- didn’t take you as one at all 🙂 I did this process with a behaviorist during quarantine to try and isolate the issue- same conclusion unfortunately. And this is my first dog – so you surely know more than me 🙂

When I’ve changed her food, I can do it cold turkey with no diarrhea, I used to do it slowly, but her stool is actually more loose if I do it that way. With kibble it’s easy. Sometimes her stool will be lighter brown but that’s it.

I feel that the whining is because she doesn’t feel satiated. When we had her cPL and TLI tested, she was eating 3 cups of food, and her values were so elevated. indicating some kind of pancreatic stress… so I don’t feel comfortable giving her more and more because her pancreatic values will increase for sure with more fat. In September of 2019 she was eating 1 3/4 cups of food a day with no issue whatsoever. Our feeding schedule was totally relaxed, I could sleep in and she’d sleep with me and eat whenever I was up.

[Patricia A]

LOL! Oh good. I told my hubby to stop me from posting because I might be coming across as that. Glad you didn’t think that. Yes..we had Pookie our Doxie as our first dog with my kids when they were little. NOW he could eat a lamb bone with fatty meat. Iron stomach. We just couldn’t step outside we’re he would run outside to eat for the two days cause he would growl at us. New dog parents and didn’t know any better to feed him that. No google either to look up even what to feed a dog and what not. Then we had Chloe a rescue Chihuahua. Then my Hannah Belle my soulmate dog who we put to rest at 17 in the spring. I still cry. So now we have our Tia who just turned 10 and Loli who will be six. Both Chihuahuas . Each one was SO different. Now without the kids to worry about it’s all-out them.
I’m really sad that you’re going through this with your first dog. Happy she’s in good hands and loved so much.I think the best thing is find low fat food. This way you can feed the amount she need to satisfy her and keep the appropriate weight for her size. I read this one is good. https://www.chewy.com/nulo-freestyle-cod-lentils-recipe/dp/104614?utm_source=partnerize&utm_medium=affiliates&utm_campaign=1100l35838&utm_content=0&clickref=1100laaz8JW6
Good luck Sienna and keep updating

[Susan]

When a dog is suffering with pain & stress they can bite. nip, a few times Patches vet was pushing & prodding his stomach/pancreas area & he growled at her he’s never growled at anyone but this told her where he was sore she calls it his IBD Pain, she said she suffers with IBD so its good she understands what Patch is going thru
I started to know if Patch was lifting up his front paw, I use to think he wanted to shake hands but no he wants to have stomach area rub, I wait & see was it just 1 day his stomach was sore or more then 1 day & I’d rotate & change his kibble.
a low dose of Metronidazole helps with the pain & kills the Helicobacter, some dogs are kept on a low dose of Metronidazole. Also vet wanted to put him on Prednisone something I didn’t want him on, finally 2017 we tried a very low dose 5mg twice a day, the Pred took away his abdomen pain & he slept really good but he got diarrhea & vomited the first day I tried it, even when we went down to 5mg a day poos were very sloppy, vet said give him the Prednisone 2 days & then stop then as soon as he gets his pain give him low dose prednisone for 2 -3 days again then stop, this did stop his pain, but I learnt once his diet agree with him & Kcals were low he was good no pain.
Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat low residue kibble vet diet is good, its low fat & low fiber, he doesn’t have any pain when he’s eating R/C Gastro-intestinal kibble, but he starts swallowing mouth suckling some days, so I add 1/2 the R/C gastro with 1/2 another kibble.
When I first rescued Patch my vet called the Animal Behaviourist into our room to teach me how to teach Patch the words “LEAVE IT” I was even told to muzzle him when he went outside & on walks so he couldn’t eat any foods or cat poo when I wasn’t watching it caused IBD flares -pain..
I’d deal with her pain (Meds) then her Behaviour will get better..

With Low fat kibbles just watch the fiber stay 5% & under & Kcals are low, under 350Kcals per cup, the higher the Kcals more dense are ingredients so harder to digest, stomach & pancreas works harder.

Large Breed Kibbles are best as they are formulated to not cause bloat in large breed dogs, Patch is a medium breed, he does good on Large Breed & Senior kibbles, Wellness Core Large Breed, Canidae Pure Senior G/F are really good. Diamond Naturals Senior & the Large Breed Adult looks good especially the Senior,
Protein is higher-25% Fat is low-11%, Fiber-3% & Kcals are low-318Kcals per cup

Diamond Naturals Senior Dog Chicken, Egg & Oatmeal Formula

[sienna11711]

Hi Susan,

Interesting how similar Patch and my dog are. I totally know your pain with thinking about putting him down- I actually contacted my local boxer rescue twice about rehoming in the last 6 months in a panic. My vet also recommended a muzzle. My dog hates wearing anything- muzzle, harness, I think she has bodily discomfort so wearing anything extra on top is just stress. I even got diapers for when she sleeps and urinates but she’ll rip those off. To be totally honest, I think trying to “train out” the issues actually just adds more stress to an already-stressed dog’s life. A sick dog has a much lower threshold of stress.

I will definitely call my vet tomorrow and ask about endoscope and biopsy- is there a specific type that you asked for Patch? Biopsy of which tissues?

[Mike Sagman]

Hi Patricia,

Thanks for all your excellent posts in our forums. I sent you an email on Saturday. Did you get it? Maybe it got trapped in your spam filter. Would you please check your inbox and reply when you get a chance.

Thanks,

Mike

[Patricia A]

Sienna this is an excellent article on very natural behaviors of dogs. It’s in regard to why dogs don’t like hugs. How dogs react to certain places on their body they regard as a threat when you try to touch or pet. Also how to handle a dog who is reactive to other dogs. It’s really all natural behavior in a dogs world.
https://www.treehugger.com/things-humans-do-that-dogs-hate-4864319
This is a questions and answers regarding REACTIVE DOG BEHAVIORS.

Reactive Dog FAQs

Maybe you’ll find similarities in your Boxer’s behavior in articles . it explains the whys and helpful advice.

[sienna11711]

Hi,

I think these are important, and I know some dogs tend to not like hugs, but my dog is super affectionate and loves cuddling and climbs all over anyone if given the chance. I actually don’t really believe that all dogs hate hugs, much like people say that dogs find it threatening to be stared at– my dog literally stares at me all day long and looks into my eyes with her face in my face. She is soo close to me and she has never shown any sign of being uncomfortable- she solicits it!

I took a great webinar on dog body language and it was super helpful. A balanced dog will give quite a few signals until they would actually be driven to nip or bite. A dog in pain is less likely to show elaborate signs because their threshold is already higher than that of a normal dog. So when people do come over, now, I tell them to be really hands off and I don’t let her get super close to them. It kind of sucks, because she was always such a lap dog.

[sienna11711]

Also, as an update, it’s day 2 on a lower fat food, same number of calories as previous food though, and she’s unfortunately even hungrier than usual. It’s so weird that her pancreas is clearly struggling a bit, so you’d think that lower fat would ease the burden, but then she’s just even hungrier. She must not be able to digest and assimilate any kind of fat appropriately. Back to the drawing board.

[sienna11711]

Yes, I was actually on the EPI forum recently and all of the EPI dogs have really poor stools and poor appetites, and weight loss. On fresh food my dog lost weight rapidly, but back on kibble her weight is stable and her body is ideal. I sent them her recent bloodwork and they said it looked indicative of chronic pancreatitis, but a low fat food combined with incubating the food in enzymes and warm water for 15-20 min usually causes a big turnaround for dogs with that issue.

My vet told me her behavior is likely 100% behavioral- that my dog is basically just so generally stressed that she is resorting to eating- and since she doesn’t have loose stool or diarrhea that she may just have general IBD but to keep her on this same food since her stools are nice and firm with it.

I know she is ravenous because when we go out on walks the entire walk she is nose to the ground sniffing for food and poop. Sometimes she will be so keen to find food or crumbs that she literally bumps into poles and stuff when I try to keep her moving. Sometime we’ll be crossing a busy road and she will drop to the ground to eat something while cars are waiting for us to cross. Before quarantine, when I’d go out to a restaurant, instead of sitting down and hanging out she would be all over me, trying to get onto the table, and crawling all over the surrounding tables on the floor to sniff for crumbs. She wakes up 1-2 hours earlier than usual these days and barks and whines at me to eat. I thought at first it was to go out but if I take her out before feeding her she will just frantically look for food and potty a few minutes into the walk, so I know it’s not bathroom related. After she eats she will drink any and all water in the bowl, and then keep sniffing her food bowl, then go back to water bowl, then come to me and whine and keep doing that over and over. If I don’t strictly monitor her water intake she will just gulp it all away and pee herself while napping. Around 2:30 pm ( dinner is at 5pm) she becomes impossible to deal with. She follows my every move, paws at me constantly, and will just sit there hypervigilant of what I’m doing. If I even move to adjust myself on the couch she will get up as if we were going somewhere. If I’m eating she will literally be underfoot. Her counter surfing has surged, now if I leave anything on the counter in a box she will knock it over. I left a taped box of donuts and went to take out trash down the hallway and when I came back she had taken the entire box down on the floor, ripped it open, and ate 12 donuts in a matter of 45 seconds. When I leave and watch her on the pet camera, she goes straight into the kitchen and jumps up on the counter and sniffs the entire area of it. I’ve always been really food about not leaving anything out, but I was always able to leave fruit out or even boxes of snacks so long at they were closed, but now anything is fair game for her. All of this becomes 10 times worse if we do more activity like long walks, little trips to the park or to the beach…so it’s really diminished our relationship unfortunately. She’s also not very playful anymore, she only grabs her toys when shes hungry and is super rough if I try to play with her so it seems like it’s only agitation.

Previously, she was always a food lover, and would always come and stand in the kitchen if I was cooking or eating, but I would ask her to move away and go sit on her bed and it was that easy. She would only try to steal off the counter if it was open sitting on a plate and no one was in the room, otherwise she wouldn’t touch it. I used to take her everywhere that was pet friendly with me. She was also a much more gentle player.

[Patricia A]

UHHH ..So sorry the change of food again didn’t do the trick for her problem. Just wanted to add that with at least my two dogs’, their appetite NEVER seems to be satiated. I think I could give them each a whole chicken and when done they would STILL be under the dinner table waiting for the messy eater to drop a table scrap or two. lol And these are 6lb. Chihuahuas’. lol
I’m hoping that since your dog does not show the classic symptoms of Interestinal Bowel Disease, such as the lack of appetite, losing weight, vomiting and diarrhea and that your vet never gave a definitive diagnosis of chronic pancreas that perhaps she’s just a hungry dog.
Keep me updated Sienna. Hopefully optimistic that you’ll work out the problem and find a solution for your pup.

[WondrousPups]

Hi Sienna,
I’m sorry for all the on-going stress and struggles with your pooch! Sounds like you are being given lots of good and supportive tips from Patricia and Susan 🙂 I’m not sure if you are a kind of a person who is comfortable with “food as a medicine” approach, and if not, this might sounds wacky, but it’s been working out for me personally and for my dogs, I just chime in as a food for thoughts since the conventional pharmaceuticals don’t sounds like helping out at all.

At the first glance at the symptoms and history you’ve described, two herbs came to my mind immediately. First, Stinging Nettle. Nettle is an immuno-modulater (you mentioned high TLI). It treats hypothyroid (low T4 result), UTI, weak hair, and it supports kidney/adrenal restorative. It should be easy to grow in Florida, but you can buy it online, too.

Second herb that came to my mind is Ashwagandha. This herb is mainly an adoptogen. It also good for hypothyroid. It also works for insomnia, anxiety, chronic degenerative disease that involves wasting wasting away. Some describe it as Indian version of ginseng (which I give to my dogs everyday), but ginseng tend to be very stimulating. So it’s probably not good for an anxious pup.

Tow other herbs that support fat digestion and liver function are common sage and turmeric.

They don’t work like a silver bullet, and takes a bit of time (except turmeric – the result tend to be immediate) for healing to happen and observed, but there is not down side except some patience and persistence.

If you are open for trying and interested, let me know. I can direct you to resources and/or more details.

Sending LOTS of support and healing thoughts !

[sienna11711]

Hi!! I am definitely a food is medicine kind of person. I was pretty sad when the raw and homemade diet didn’t work for her, because it definitely made her more calm overall but the stool and weight loss was a no go. I’m hoping that one day we can do a homemade diet especially since she’s a senior now.

We have used various tinctures from Pet Health and Nutrition Co.- they make awesome blends for many different issues, but unfortunately with my dog they would help a lot (almost like a sweetspot) for like, one month tops, and then she would go back to how she was previously. We were doing a hypothyroid blend as well as the adrenal blend. I still have the adrenal blend, so maybe I can try starting it up again.

She was also previously on a supplement called Thyro Complex (Progressive Labs) which has thyroid/pituitary/adrenal/spleen glandulars as well as iodine and kelp. When she was first “diagnosed” with hypothyroidism and prescribed levothyroxine, the vet also prescribed this. Within 2 days her coat drastically improved, even the color (she’s a brindle) opened up, she looked like an orange tiger! Her coat was amazingly soft. But unfortunately she then started dribbling urine nonstop all day, became excessively thirsty, and lost like 5 pounds in one week. Our new vet said it was likely that since her thyroid is not the true issue here, the thyroid glandular was over supporting her thyroid and plunging her into possible hyperthyroid territory. I did used to pour out half the capsule for a while, but gave up on it once we ruled out true hypothyroidism. Perhaps I should re order for the time being just to give extra support.

I’m very interested in turmeric, would you recommend giving it as a powder? she totally has some inflammation going on so turmeric would probably be a good option.

I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried aromatherapy, but Caroline Ingraham ihas an amazingggg essential oil program for animals with behavioral and health issues. I myself never was into oils although I do enjoy the scents, but it’s basically a method of letting animals select their own “cure” by presenting them a bunch of different oils. Animals in the wild will often self medicate by consuming certain plants when distressed so it works with that phenomenon. She’s done this with horses, dogs, cats, and even leopards. Usually during a successful session the animal will totally relax and even sleep. It’s amazing how the animals actually choose what they need. I ordered a bunch from her just to try out and my dog was obsessively trying to lick and eat Violet Leaf Oil- commonly used for stress and anxiety. She actually just keeps going at it over and over so it made it pretty clear my dog’s condition is really taxing to her. Other oils she would sniff for a bit and then turn away and others she just ignored completely.

[WondrousPups]

Wow! You really tried e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g! Hats off to you for your dedication. There is no doubt you’ve extended your pup’s life. I didn’t know “Pet Health and Nutrition” website. I just now checked out the two tincture blends you’ve mentioned. I’m happy to say that I was on a same track with the master herbalist who formulated these. I am doubtful though that Ashwagandha in the adrenal blend is strong enough to be therapeutic. Ashwagandha and Astragalus are difficult to get therapeutic amount in tincture, and needs long term daily use to be effective. Eleuthero is very stimulating, so it would be counter productive to anxiety issue. Umm… I don’t know. This blend looks to me like formulated for very weakened animal who doesn’t have much energy or appetite. I remember you saying your pup tends to be always hungry. I agree with inclusion of Ashwagandha and Astragalus, but other ingredients might affect negatively as a whole for your particular situation with your pup.

Since you have been trying so many different remedies without real success, it might be good idea not to add anything new until evaluating other factors before. So, what factors do you think is most important in determining health?

A. Genetics
B. Medical care
C. Environmental factors and social circumstances
D. Life style (personal behavior)

The answer is – D! It counts for 40%! A (genetics) for 30% or less, C for 20%, and B (medical care) is 10%.

With that said, eating healing foods is a part of a healthy life style, so if you’d like to try turmeric (or any other herbs), I recommend whole foods approach. The way I started out for my pups are infusion into coconut cream and mixing it with kibble for every day at dinner time. I like this turmeric chai blend from Mountain Rose Herb: https://mountainroseherbs.com/turmeric-chai or you can do a simpler homemade – coconut milk/cream + 1 tsp turmeric powder + 1/2 tsp ginger powder + 1/8 freshly ground black pepper. Black pepper is not optional because perperine in black pepper make any nutrients from food more bio-available in general, but turmeric in particular, it makes curcumin (active component in turmeric) 2,000% more bio-available than without. The turmeric chai taste good with a touch of honey for me, but my dogs likes it savory with food. If your pup does not have any bad reaction to it, then you can increase potency of turmeric. The recommended safe dosage of curcumin is about 600 mg for 50 lb. dog. Curcumin in Turmeric is 3%. For maintenance dosage, even for people, 1 g/day of turmeric is theraputic. Unless you are dealing with a sever chronic pain, I don’t think mega dosing is necessary.

I hope this can get you started on turmeric!

As for aroma therapy, no, I haven’t tried it, but I do use essential oils for flea and tick control instead of putting pesticides on my pups. So not healthy! I do agree with what you said about dogs can sniff and choose what’s good for them. My dogs volunteer grazing young shoots of herbs by sniffing!

[Susan]

Hi Sienna,
May I ask what kibble did you try, what is the fiber % & what is the Kcals per cup, did you give any Slippery Elm Powder or Gastro Elm made into a slurry given 20mins before eating?
When she wants to keep eating , to me this is when Patch has his pain, he follows me into the kitchen, into lounge room, after he has eaten, I have to tell him Patch you have just eaten -Go away now, go to sleep or we go on a walk if its around 9.30am or 5pm, I have him in a strict routine it helped with his anxieties as he knew whats happening next & know the exact time he has his meals, the cat has to be in bed & quiet by 8.30pm or he starts stressing & shaking.
Sometimes I massage his stomach & bowel area while he’s sitting near me waiting while on the computer & sometimes he has wind/gas he farts. He’ll eat the same food & be fine in the morning but at night he’s whinging, he’s pacing, crying, talking, I keep the grass he likes in bowl of water in kitchen for about 5 days,I get tea towel & I dry a few pieces grass & I ask him do you want grassy, he often says yes & takes the grass blade side of his mouth, so he can chew the grass the grass settles whatever is wrong then he often goes to sleep, but since starting Eukanuba Senior he’s stop wanting his grass, so ingredients in the Eukanuba must be OK & aren’t making him feel sick. Our Eukanuba is made Australia now not US so our ingredients are a bit different but it still has corn.
If you’re in America vets don’t do Endoscope & Biopsies they send you to a specialist who cost a lot of money apparently- $2000-$3000, Australia $700-$900 Vets in Australia NZ & UK study longer to become vets, Patches vet is from America she had to do extra studying when she came to Australia to be a vet here.
Biopsies Patch has 2 biopsies 1 on stomach wall & 1 small bowel if the flap is open only cost $60 each biopsies, its the Endoscope that cost the money, this is why some people just ask their vet can they please try the triple therapy medications diet change & see if dog gets better, most vets say OK as nothing else has worked, the Metronidazole does help, has she ever been on medications? low dose Prednisone? this takes away pain makes them sleep. Royal Canin Gastrointestinal Low Fat, low fiber a low residue diet & it can take 1-2 weeks to see a change the meds are needed.

[sienna11711]

Hi Susan,

Right now we are feeding EarthBorn Holistic Ocean Fusion – the main source of protein is white fish- 22% protein, 12% fat, and 4% fiber. 415 kcal/cup.
It does have grains but no wheat, corn, or soy and no random animal byproduct meal. My dog doesn’t do well on chicken based kibbles, she does better on turkey, rabbit, pollock, etc.

I’m going to order the slippery elm powder as well as turmeric and see how that does for her. I’ve taken slippery elm in the past and it is definitely soothing to the GI tract.

@WondrousPups, do you know where I might be able to get Ashwagandha on its own that is safe for dogs?

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by sienna11711.

[WondrousPups]

Hi Susan,
I know you didn’t ask, but I couldn’t help. You are a very devoted person for Patches wellness. If everyone is as half as devoted you are, there would be less suffering pets in the world for sure. I’m sorry for the on-going IBS troubles Patch has to go through 🙁 I’ve had my good share of sleepless nights with my pups over the years, but it pales in comparison the everyday struggles you have to bear with Patch.

I’m glad to hear you are using slippery elm to help his gut wall integrity. I hear good things about it for IBS. If I may contribute, and you may have already doing this, if so, tell me – but I wanted to mention about another herb just in case because I don’t want to deprive you from options for Patch.

With that said, have you heard of the efficacy of peppermint oil for severe IBS symptoms? There are studies to prove it helps with bloating, gas and abdominal pains, and it is safe for children, too. It does not cure IBS, but it alleviates serious digestive symptoms. Strong peppermint tea would do the trick a lot of the times, but I’m doubtful Patch would volunteer to drink it, so you would probably need to get enteric-coated capsules of peppermint oil for sever bouts of upsets like Patch’s, but I don’t think it’s hard to find it nowadays. Don’t take my word for it – Here are studies behind it:

“Enteric-coated, pH-dependent peppermint oil capsules for the treatment of irritable bowel syndrome in children”, Kline, Robert M., et al. Journal of Pediatrics

“Effect of acute peppermint oil administration on gastric sensorimotor function and nutrient tolerance in health”, Papathanasopoulous, A., et al. Neurogastroenterrology & Motility

“The effect of enteric-coated, delayed-release peppermint oil on irritable bowel syndrome”, Merat, Shahin, et al., Digestive Diseases and Sciences

I think there are more, but I think you can get the ideas, and I hope this help you decide if peppermint oil make sense for Patch or not in addition to slippery elm.

One other thing: If you are feeding kibbles with probiotics, avoid ones that include “Enterococus Faecium”. This strain causes more potential to cause damages than good for animals (including humans) with weakened immune systems and IBS. Off the top of my head, Whole Earth Farms/Merrick, Diamond, Victor, I & Love & You include this strain in their formulas.

[WondrousPups]

Hi Sienna,

If you are planning on biopsy and an endoscopic exam, I believe you need to have your pup off of any meds/supplements for two weeks before the exam to clear the system, and no food for three days before endoscopic exam. At least that’s what I had to do for my colonoscopy so that the test results will be sound. I can understand your urge to want to help your furbaby. Starting with new herbs before the tests can contaminate the results, though. If I were in your shoes, I’d wait until after the test results are back so that I’d be able to make a more informed decision, not shooting in blind. How can anyone treat something one doesn’t know what’s wrong? Do you know for sure your girl’s problem is from IBS? Slippery elm is helpful for protecting digestive lining. I would not use it before the exam because it increases mucilage in digestive tracks and it can make it difficult for the doctor to establish the base line. Does this make sense?

I’m kind of scared for you right now. DO NOT start using Ashwagandha until after the vet exam. Your pup probably has to be sedated for the endoscopic exam, and ashwagandha can potentiate the sedative that the vet is going to use. VERY DANGEROUS! I don’t want you to risk getting adulterated powder somewhere as supplements and herbs are not regulated as medicine although some are potent enough to be as such, I’ll tell you where to get a safe supply, but again, I recommend waiting. With that said, I highly recommend buying herbs from Mountain Rose Herb – mountainroseherbs.com. They are highly ethical and well respected company. Prices are very reasonable for the quality (fresh, organic, ethically harvested, and sustainably sourced). Bulk is the least expensive way, but if you don’t use it quickly, quality diminishes (especially powder form). Some herbs, spices and tea make sense to buy in bulk, others, smallest quantities in powder from.

Dosage (Upto, Roy, and Petrone, Cathirose, eds., Ashwagandha Root: Withania Somnifera – Analytical, Quality Control, and Therapeutic Monograph.):

As powder, ¼ teaspoon (1/2g) – ½ teaspoon (1g) per day for your 50 lb. pup. You can add it to the turmeric concoction I shared earlier, but here it is again.

2 servings (1 cup per serving daily)
2 cups of full fat coconut milk – heated. In a blender, add the milk, 1 tsp turmeric powder, ½ tsp ginger powder, ½ tsp Ashwagandha powder, 1/8 tsp freshly ground black pepper, 1 tsp honey (optional). Blend on high for about 30 seconds.

Remember – it is meant to be taken over time every day to restore nervous system and sleep cycle.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Susan]

@ Wonderuspups,
A Colonoscopy is different to an Endoscope Stomach you just need a empty stomach, not empty bowel the camera can only go down esophagus & maybe small bowel only if the sphincter flap is open to enter small bowel for dogs.
Patch has IBD not IBS..
When Patch is having Endoscope + Biopsies, he eats his Dinner night before then no more food after 8pm, no water after 12am, next day he goes to vet 10am, his Endoscope app is at 11am, blood is taken for anesthetic check.
then I get a call from his vet nurse who’s looking after him after his procedure to tell me Patch has woken up come around 3pm to pick him up then he’s back home eating small meal 3-4pm & running around, there’s no pain with Endoscope/Biopsies, he stayed on his Acid Blocker meds weren’t stopped same with me.
I have Endoscope every 5 yrs, no food after 12am I’m at hospital 8am next day, back home 11am same day & I have to take my meds before I leave home that morning, when I was younger I was told to stop my ant acid medication 2 weeks before Endoscope & my god the pain I had bad acid reflux, when my scope/biopsies was finished & I woke up the Gastro Dr told me to take my ant acid medication as soon as I get home, cause my esophagus & stomach is red & inflamed..

Turmeric is hot spice, I cant take it & I’d never give to Patch as it would upset his stomach. Same as Apple Cider Vinegar makes acid reflux worse if dog or person is making too much Hydrochloric acid in their stomach, coconut oil can cause bad acid reflux as well its a hard fat, not a soluble fat.
You have to be very careful with animals as they cant talk & tell owner they’re in more pain after having natural herbs etc.. The only supplement I’ll use is Slippery Elm powder cause I’ve tried it & CBD oil, I always try things first..

@ Sienna.
I’d be trying medications before trying any holistic supplements, Turmeric can cause stomach upset, if your dog has Ulcer Turmeric will make pain worse.
Patch was eating Earthborn Holistic Ocean Fusion & the fish made his acid worse he cant eat any fish kibbles they’re higher in Omega Oils, also dogs who suffer with Pancreatitis have problems with oily fish + fish oils, they can cause a Pancreas flare, if you follow Dr Judy Morgan her old dog he’s since passed away, he kept having Pancreatic flare every month so Judy stopped everything in his diet & did Elimination Food diet & re introduced everything slowly & it was the Fish Oil causing his flares… look at Turkey & Potato kibbles, Pork & Potato kibbles
Here’s Canidae Pure Wild Boar but the fat is 15-16%???
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-pure-grain-free-dry-dog-food-wild-boar/

Patch does really well on the Canidae Pure Senior it has the lowest fat- 10.80%max are you 100% sure she cant have Chicken you’ve don’t a proper elimination diet?

There’s also 4Health Special Care Sensitive Stomach, there’s NO meat + kcals are low
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/4health-special-care-sensitive-stomach-formula-for-adult-dogs-8-lb-bag?cm_vc=-10011

4Health has Lamb & Rice Kcals are 328Kcals per cup easy to digest ingredients fat -12%min.

Sometimes we have to put aside our strong beliefs & do whats best for the dog, I’m feeding Patch Eukanuba Senior kibble Eukanuba made in Australia, ingredients are slightly different to USA Eukanuba, it has Corn & Wheat & Patch isn’t wanting his grass he normally wants after Dinner, I’m going back to what Patch was first put on when I rescued him 2012 + I know Eukanuba makes low residue kibbles easy to digest ingredients.

[WondrousPups]

Hi Susan,
Thank you for the clarification and sorry for mixing up IBD with IBS. I didn’t suggest turmeric to you. It’s peppermint oil. It’s still helpful for helping pains, gas, bloating associated with the disease. If you don’t find my offering helpful, that’s not a problem for me. My sharing is from my heart, and freely given, and it’s up to you to do whatever you’d like.

I fine it very troubling and unethical for you to say things untrue about turmeric. It does not cause pain or upset stomach. Turmeric actually work as a pain killer in high doses much like aspirin would without upsetting stomach that NSAIDs often causes. It’s been well documented. I am also don’t suggest using purified forms of supplements. Whole plants as a food as medicine is my general approach.

[Patricia A]

Ladies I believe we are all trying to do our best in trying to help Sienna with whatever knowledge we have from experiences with our own pets in regards to what to feed for a possible resolution of her dogs health symptoms.
However, when rereading her posts I still cannot find a definitive diagnosis of IBD. Sienna posted “My vet told me her behavior is likely 100% behavioral- that my dog is basically just so generally stressed that she is resorting to eating- and since she doesn’t have loose stool or diarrhea that she may just have general IBD but to keep her on this same food since her stools are nice and firm with .” I would never think the vet would describe IBD as just GENERAL????
It’s just an opinio,however when i read between the lines of Siennas’ description of her Boxer’s many symptoms they all lead me to believe she might have IBS when fed certain foods as she states “er a piece of pineapple yesterday and she woke up in the middle of the night and expelled it, undigested.” as my dogs and many others do with certain food also. With constant looking for food could it be possible Sienna is feeding less because she feels like the amount to satiate her causes her to be “reactive”. But i don’t read her say reactive in the way of diarrhea, vomiting. or a lose of appetite as being the common signs of IBD.
Would you ladies agree that she really should go to another vet and hopefully this vet would be able to give a definitive diagnosis of IBD vs IBS and the not so big deal of behavioral issues which then can be addressed or accepted as her personality and work around it.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Patricia A.

[Susan]

@Wondrouspups
I’m not being rude or meaning to be rude to you, American always take us Australians the wrong way, Americans are very sensitive where Australian aren’t.
Re read your post honestly, You even write
“I’m kind of scared for you right now. DO NOT start using Ashwagandha until after the vet exam.”

When people are desperate they will try anything thinking they’re helping their sick dog which can lead to more pain, then emergency vet or if pet owner doesn’t have the funds NO emergency vet a very painful death.

This dog is sick & has pain which has been left untreated, probably way too long with no proper medications, sounds like the vet was an idiot & he didn’t know what was wrong with the dog so he got rid of his problem & recommended a animal behaviorist, when the dog probably should of seen another vet & not wasted more of Sienna’s money, Sienna (dog owner) has probably been going around circles for years now, I’ve been there with Patch until a lady straight out told me to change my vet, your dog is sick & is in pain, Patch saw 4 vets before I found a good vet who knew straight away its his stomach, Patches poos were firm, except when he ate foods he was sensitive too, my good vet explained to me, IBD starts at the mouth & can be anywhere all the way to the bum, a dog doesn’t have to have diarrhea, this is when the vet should have known its probably the dogs stomach, sent dog owner to see an specialist for a Endoscope & a couple of Biopsies of the stomach, the dog owner would of had answers, & proper meds would have been prescribed.

Peppermint oil is Toxic to dogs when taken orally.
Peppermint oil should only be used in a diffuser and in low amounts. It can be toxic if ingested.

Ashwagandha causes vomiting & diarrhea.

Turmeric – Over-supplementing your dog with turmeric can cause upset stomach, or increase risks for those with kidney problems.

Wondrouspups you’re probably have healthy pups, pups who haven’t suffered with stomach problems, as soon as I read your post I thought where’s Anon, what happened to Anon she would of been posting all side effects to your holistic supplements or reporting your post to DFA….
The dog needs a good vet who’s dealt with IBD in dogs
Sorry if I’ve upset you but its upsetting reading post where the dog isn’t well & has learn’t to live with its pain..

[sienna11711]

Hi,

Just to clear up any misunderstandings here WondrousPups your suggestions have been great but Susan does have a valid point. When you have a dog with a really sensitive digestive system even the best supplements and whole foods can cause them distress. I personally have gastroparesis and I cannot handle turmeric in any capacity. I don’t think Susan was trying to discredit the benefits, I think she has a lot of valuable experience. Having a “mystery” case dog is extremely stressful. I have tried a home cooked diet and raw diet and I did not experience any of the benefits of it for my dog. The people in the raw feeding facebook group treated me extremely harshly and insisted my dog needed to detox further even though she was slowly becoming skin and bones. Please be sensitive to that! We are trying so hard.

Susan unfortunately the endoscope and biopsy are out of my price range at the moment 🙁 I am getting an affordable second opinion with a telehealth visit with a vet from Barcelona, I’m looking forward to what she may think. Your vet made an EXCELLENT point- IBD can occur anywhere along the digestive tract, just because a dog isn’t having diarrhea or vomiting does not mean they don’t have IBD.

Also, lastly, (Patricia A) my vet said my dog could have IBD and we could certainly try the Hills IBD diet if I wanted to go down that road but she really didn’t seem convinced that it was. So there’s really no official actual diagnosis besides anxiety/stress. But I would classify her symptoms as some form of IBD or IBS – ravenous hunger, inability to digest anything besides kibble, poor fat digestion, resulting weak immunity, in the past she had chronic regurgitation as well.

[WondrousPups]

Hi Patricia – Thank you for your kind post. Like you said, I too, believe people are doing the best to be supportive of each other based on our experiences with our pet.

Susan – I don’t think no one likes to be seen as a rude or insensitive person. We are not perfect, and we all make mistakes. That’s a given and that’s OK. It is also OK to accept the negative impacts of what’s been said to others. Making mistakes doesn’t make us bad people. What’s not kind to do is to shifting the blames the impacted people. I don’t think that’s never OK, and really hurtful.

For the record, I am not an American. I do live in the US, but I didn’t grow up in the US culture. I’ve worked with many Aussies, American, Asians, Indians, Europeans and some Russians. Like I’ve said, you can do whatever you’d like to do with the information I shared. I share because it could be of help, but I don’t mind if people find it unhelpful. It doesn’t bother me and I honestly think people should make their educated decisions.

Sienna – Best of luck to you, and hopefully you can get to the bottom of your pup’s health issues very soon. Take a gentle care of yourself, too. It is very stressful to be caring for sick fur-babies.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by WondrousPups.

[sienna11711]

Hi all,

I know this reply may come off super strange considering it’s been a few months, but I wanted to update you all on my dog.

So our vet implored us to see a veterinary behaviorist for her issues. It turned out to be of great help because the behaviorist asked a lot of questions and had me checking in with her every single week and trying things one at a time. My dog (Sienna) was put on a low dose of zoloft (sertraline) to help with anxiety and stress and we switched her to the Royal Canin Hydrolyzed Diet. Through process of elimination with our behaviorist we were able to figure out that Sienna’s issues are 100% related to her digestive tract and not just random severe anxiety! She is indeed drinking excessively and eating excessively because of physical pain that is much more pronounced right after eating.

I’m happy to report that on the hydrolyzed diet she gained a little weight eating less than she normally does. She also has less stomach flinching however I did learn that she has the most stomach flinching (when touched underneath) right after eating, and it is markedly less flinchy if she is fasted (for vet appts).

We decided to see an internist who gave her an ultrasound + tons of bloodwork with absolutely no problems. Unfortunately the biopsy is too expensive for us right now, but the internist thinks it is definitely IBD, and definitely tons of inflammation in her intestines. She will be starting a local steroid (budosenide I think) this week to see if it helps any. If anyone has any suggestions, supplements, etc. that would be great. We have tried many many supplements and diets in the past, so I’m not feeling very positive about it, but you never know.

[WondrousPups]

Hi Sienna!
It’s not strange at all. It’s good of you to update what’s been going on with you and your beloved pup. Glad to hear that both the internist and the behaviorist seem to agree the issues are to do with digestive tract problems. Now you can focus your attentions to healing her gut and helping her immune system to be normal again! That’s good news.

I highly recommend reading two books:

Body into Balance by Maria Noel Groves and
Dr. Kidd’s Guide to Herbal Dog Care by Randy Kidd, DVM, Ph.D.

Both will give you specific ways to heal IBD, and you will have references on had to refer back to on each stage of your pup’s healing process. They are not big books, straight forward very practical.

Another book you might consider adding to your library is Mosby’s Nursing Drug Reference just because you seem like a person who likes to use both allopathic medicine and herbal medicine. In this book, you can look up each herb-drug interaction as well as drug side effects. So long you are interested in continuing to use herbs and supplements (both for you and your pup), it might be a good one to have. Don’t rely on internet for reliable info. on this one.

I understand you don’t want to get biopsy done right now, but if your pup’s condition doesn’t improve at all in a month or see any blood in her stool, I would get that biopsy done ASAP because there is a possibility of cancer in play. I think that’s why your internist was probably suggesting biopsy as well.

Take care Sienna,
WP

[Susan]

Hi Sienna,
How is the Budosenide going is it helping?? How’s is her Arthritis has that been checked???

I was at the vets on Tuesday 8am for Blood test + talk with vet about Patch he’s gone down hill again, I was 100% Patch had all the symptom of Cushing syndrome, he’s drinking & drinking water, weeing, has pain – shaking, flinching when I touch him, he’s been following me 24/7, he wont let me out of his sight, crying whinging, up & down all night, he cant settle at night, so I went vet got full Blood test done & they came back all good 🙁
BUT 1 thing vet found was Patch has Arthritis front left paw, she said dogs use their front paws the most & they end up with Arthritis, I knew about his back top of his left leg some type of bone is growing out & he’s on monthly Cartrophen Vet Injections to help with his Arthritis, Cartrophen was doing wonders not interfering with his stomach & bowel no side effects, but now its not helping like it did 2 yrs ago, so now vet wanted to try Provicox 1/4 of a tablet to start with for his Arthritis, Provicox can interfere with stomach bowel & cause GI problems, she said she has had great results with dogs like Patch who suffer with IBD & cant take certain Arthritis medications, Wednesday day he seemed OK after having his 1/4 Provicox tablet but Thursday night I was up 1/2 the night Patches stomach was rumbling, grumbling, normally I make dry dark toast this helps stop his rumbling bowel noises but he wouldn’t eat the toast just wanted grass, he has his sore throat from bad acid reflux again & I think the Provicox has made Acid reflux worse as he’s been swallowing suckling, so I gave him dry Salada lite biscuit broken up in pieces, he likes Salada lite biscuits they have salt on them, they stopped the gasses rumbling thru his bowel & we went to sleep finally.. I ant believe his Arthritis is causing all his symptoms drinking water, weeing, whinging etc the vet said that would be his IBD probably stomach pain. 🙁

Sometimes I just wish it would all end but vet wont put him to sleep yet, she said he’s not ready & covers up his ears, & says don’t listen to your mum Patch he has heaps of life left, lol but he has more bad days then good day with his Arthritis pain, He just turned 12yrs old 20th November…
I’ve been giving him CBD Oil 3 drops on a piece of Salada dry biscuit before bed at night, this has helped & he sleeps thru the night but it didnt help him last night.
I hope the Budosenide is helping, my vet wouldn’t let me try Budosenide on Patch years ago she said there wasn’t enough good research done yet but that was 5-6 yrs ago. H

[sienna11711]

Hi all, thank you for checking in.

So she’s been on the budesonide for 1.5 weeks now. She has much less abdominal flinching, but an unfortunate side effect of the steroid is hunger and thirst, so on that front she has actually gotten worse and much more restless about food and water. Although her abdominal flinching is disappearing, she does still flinch a lot when I touch her on top on her lower backend by the tail, so she’s getting an exam and Xray for potential arthritis this week, but it would be weird if that is what was bothering her because she is extremely springy and active with zero signs of lethargy, joint pain etc. But we will see!

I will say the one thing the behaviorist did find was a very high cortisol level in her feces. But that’s all so far.

I do wonder about cancer because I can’t understand how a dog could simply be this anxious with no clear ailment. She is honestly impossible to deal with. It’s been 14 months with this problem and it’s totally done me over. I’ve taken care of dogs my whole life and it was easier to take care of dogs on the brink of death who can’t walk and are defecating on the floor. My dog is super alert/alive and active. But she literally is stressed all day long, attention seeking and whining nonstop, I wish I knew what the problem was. She is more anxious and worse off than when I adopted her from a person who was totally neglecting her, never took her to the vet, left her outside in the yard all day alone, etc.

I have definitely decided that the worst symptom/problem is the water drinking, because she will absolutely not stop so I’m taking her out constantly to avoid accidents. If I leave a bowl of water for her before I leave for a few hours, she will drain it as soon as I go and then she’s frantic and panting when I get back because she has no water for 5-6 hours. It’s honestly such a vicious circle everyday.

We also tried hemp oil, which settled her down a lot for about 3 days and then stopped having whatever initial effect it once had.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by sienna11711.

[Garry K]

However when I was temporarily in charge of a family members morbidly obese dog I gave him half feeds two days a week and no food at all one morning a week.
I wouldn’t starve for one whole day but I don’t see a problem in withholding some food along with moderate exercise to a dog in need of slimming!

Also take a look at https://labrescuenc.org/blog/honest-paws-the-crazy-truth-about/

[Nick J]

I’m so sorry to hear this. I myself had once a similar problem with my dog. Everywhere I went, all the veterinaries didn’t know what the issue with him was. I felt super bad, because I couldn’t help him in any way, I couldn’t take his pain away. Now, I research more information about dogs and currently I am thinking of changing my career. I researched how to become a dog trainer and I am certain that this would be the great job for me, mainly because of my love for dogs. I really think I could make a difference and be a great expert in this field. I’m still learning, but I am very positive. Everything is possible.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by Nick J.

[Suzanna M]

My friend was just looking for this. Thanks

[Suzanna M]

My friend was just looking for this information. Thanks

[Wanda W]

Has your vet checked your dogs of Cushings Disease? Ravenous appetite is a major sign.

[Author]

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