[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Idarlin –

I feel that the ideal diet is grain-free/starch free, high in animal-based protein and low in carbohydrates. This is why I personally feed my dogs a raw diet with free of grains and starches (potatoes, legumes, etc.). When it comes to kibble, a starch in some form or another (be it grains, potato, legumes, tapioca, etc.) is necessary to act as a binder. There are many that feel grain-free foods are superior to grain-inclusive foods because grains aren’t a natural part of the canine diet. However, neither are the starches used in grain-free foods – potato, legumes, tapioca, etc. Due to the fact that starch is a necessary evil when it comes to kibble I think the most important thing is to look for a food high in protein with a relatively large percentage of the protein being derived from animal sources. I think people get too caught up in grain-inclusive vs. grain-free and the industry is really playing into this – there are many new grain-free foods hitting the market that are horrible (low protein, loaded with vegetable based protein, etc. etc.) and people are paying big bucks for these foods just because the bag has the new buzzword “grain-free”. There are great grain-free foods and horrible grain-free foods and there are great grain-inclusive foods and horrible grain-inclusive foods. Concerning Innova Large Breed Puppy, it’s not a bad food by any means but it’s lower in protein than anything I’d use or recommend. It has only 24% protein, I wouldn’t use or recommend a kibble with less than 30% protein. I personally feed my crew protein levels in the 45% – 55% range.

If she’s chewing herself it could definitely be a food intolerance, but it could also be something environmental. Grains and common proteins such as chicken and beef are common causes of intolerances so you could certainly try a grain-free food with a more novel protein and see if things clear up.

[WrigleysMom]

Wrigley is a 6 month old yellow labrador and he is our baby!! After 6 months of taking the little guy to a “traditional” Vet for his stomach issues (we got him at 7 weeks old and he had coccidia from the breeder), we were tired of the constant prescription of steroids, antibiotics and pro-biotics. This little guy has been on some sort of medication since birth. I was fed up with this approach and took him to a holistic vet. She said that his internal terrain was compromised from all the meds, and recommended a RAW diet immediately (along with four supplements- two to aide with the transition). We did a cold turkey switch from his Canidae Grain Free Lamb and Bison to Natures Variety Beef RAW patties. Along with his supplements and a homemade “veggie mash” (spinach, goji berries, cucumbers, carrots and celery) Wrigley loved his new food for the first two days. Now at day three, he won’t eat anything and has been waking up at 4am vomiting a mucus-like bile. I’m reading online that dogs can experience detox symptoms when switching to raw food, especially dogs who have been on steroids or antibiotics (like Wrigley). But he’s never missed a meal and I’m worried about him. My husband wants to take him to the traditional vet, but we know he’ll just go back to antibiotics and want to put him back on dry kibble. After researching RAW diets, I really believe in the nutritional value and have already seen an improvement in my dogs bowls. Has anyone had any experience with “detox” symptoms like this? I’ve been up since 4am with our puppy and crying hysterically! Feeding him brown rice and chicken broth now, hoping he can keep that down.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi hmurray – The calcium levels are much too high in Eagle Pack Large/Giant Breed Puppy formula dry dog food for me to feel comfortable recommending it. Based on their stated minimum the calcium level is 4.3 grams per 1,000 kcal. and the actual level is likely a bit higher than that. You should be looking for a food with no more than 3.5 grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal. In the past I have used the Power Adult formula for my adult dog and I thought it was a great quality food for the price, I still frequently recommend Eagle Pack. I just wouldn’t feed it to a large or giant breed puppy.

[Moparkat]

We have a great dane mix puppy at our rescue who was diagnosed with Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy Disease. She is currently being fed scrambled eggs, rice and chicken broth. Her first vet said to feed her kibble that is low protein and whatever she will eat. Her new vet is very adamant that she has a very delicate system so we need to be very careful what we feed. It all fits as with her old vet she had some very bad days and now on new medication and care she is more lively and ready for kibble. We do have some bowel issues but hopefully we find the right one for her sensitive system.
What kibbles would be good for her in addition to her “people” food. And yes I have read the Dane Lady’s diet but need to look into options and not rely on one source.
Thank you
Sammy’s Clubhouse Rescue in Spokane WA

[Georgia Rescue Mom]

That is awesome, Mom2cavs! I have been feeding mine the chicken and brown rice and they love it! Who is the NB merger with Del Monte? The only 4 star or above food that I have found that is cheaper, is the Costco brand, Kirkland. It is $29.99. But my dogs weren’t crazy about it and a friend had the same problem. I LOVE the Petsmart’s brand, Simply Nourish and my dogs are crazy about it. They’ve just come out with a Grain Free (not rated on here yet) but I noticed that the puppy food had a 5 star rating. I have coupons for $5 off a bag if you want to email me your addy to try it. Its non sale price is $47 a bag but some is $41.99 plus I have the coupon that makes it $38 🙂 [email protected]. Thanks for all of your help!

[pugmomsandy]

I’d get the food that the pup was weaned on and then start transitioning a short while later after she gets acclimated to her new environment. Sometimes the stress of going to a new home and a whole new routine is enough to stress them out and give them GI issues and you won’t know if it’s the new food or just stress. Get some probiotics and start her on that to help strengthen her gut/immune system before changing foods. You might also want to get a colostrum supplement. I thought my dogs did fine with regular foods but noticed improvement when I introduced grain free foods and even had more improvement with grain free/potato free foods. They are now odor free/yeast free/ear infection free (which alot of pugs are prone to). I feed anywhere from 30% protein to 60% in kibble and also feed raw, and canned foods and freeze dried foods. Just find a couple foods that work well for her and switch it up every now and then. You can even rotate with every feed.

[DieselJunki]

So in all my research about raw food I can’t believe I haven’t caught this until just now. I was reading a forum when all of a sudden I caught “You must feed your growing puppy 2-3% based on his/her adult weight.”. This was in response to a new raw feeder that was asking exactly how much to feed.

Is this so? If so I have made some seriously calculation issues on how much I was planning to feed Moose when I started him on raw. I expect him to be around 100lbs ish since his mom was 90 and his dad was 120.

[sctigergirl81]

I’m sorry, but the above post is inaccurate. Great Danes are giant breed, not large – and this may seem like a small discrepancy, but not when it comes to feeding a great dane puppy. I am a great dane owner myself, and it is paramount to feed the correct percentage to a great dane puppy or you will have huge health problems down the road, and perhaps very soon. The link below maps out exactly how you should feed a great dane. Hope this helps!

http://www.all-about-great-danes.com/feeding-great-danes.html

[Saireah]

Thank you SO much, HDM and Marie.

I actually contacted Dr. Tim’s last night through e-mail and already have a response. We briefly talked around Christmas, too. I agree — fantastic (and, more importantly, personable) customer service. What appeals to me the most is the price, too. He mentioned that Kinesis Grain Free would be fine for both of my dogs, as well. He’s sending me a 5lb sample of the grain-free at half price (which was very kind of him to offer to cut the price in half).

Earthborn grain-free is really intriguing, too! A better price than Fromm’s and it looks like there’s different grain-free flavors that I could switch between every other bag to spice up their meal a bit. Side-note: I LOVE that Earthborn plants a tree if you send in the UPC.

EARTHBORN GRAIN-FREE:
Primitive Naturals: 38% protein / Calcium: not listed on GA on official site? I sent them an e-mail.
Great Plains: 34% protein / Calcium: 1.50%
Coastal Catch: 32% protein / Calcium: 1.30%
Meadow Feast: 26% protein / Calcium: 1.20%
* Would likely not feed Meadow Feast due to protein level and rotate between Primitive Naturals, Great Plains, and Coastal Catch.

DR. TIM’S KINESIS GRAIN-FREE:
32% protein / Calcium: 1.51%
* If I were to feed Dr. Tim’s, I’d probably feel better about use wet food every now and again from my Pawalla box on top of it to add a bit of extra flavors whereas, with Earthborn, they’d be getting a different flavor rotation to keep things interesting.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease. You’re right about recalls, too — a primary factor is whether or not they were precautionary or if they sat on it until they had reports of dogs being ill. Big difference.

I’m so happy I posted here. The cost per feeding for us makes these two brands at the top of the list for me. My babies are worth all the money in the world to me, but it’s nice to use part of that money to pamper them with my subscription boxes and still feed a great quality food at a reasonable price. I like that brands such as these recognize that $65+ for a bag of food that’s less than 30lb is just… unreasonable for people with multiple pets in the household. I’d certainly be OK with that if I just had one dog… and not a dog that’s practically a horse. 😉

[Saireah]

I was compelled to post in this thread again after I read Hound Dog Mom’s post on the grain-free Four Star Nutritionals page by Fromm: “I think Fromm is a good company but their food is way overpriced for what it is. A 26 lb. bag of the grain free is (depending on the variety) $65 – $70 at my feed store. No way would I pay $65 – $70 for 26 lbs.of food that only has 28% – 30% protein. IMO – there are much better options where you can actually get some meat for your money.”

Can you clarify what other options you personally find suitable? I value your opinion from this thread and have been considering switching my puppy/adult to Fromm’s 4 Star Nutritionals — but am dismayed by the downgraded rating save the salmon recipe which was due to was “due to a change in our minimum protein requirements to qualify for the 5-star category.” (Thanks Dr. Mike!)

Updated stats: I have one 8 month old lab/mastiff mix (64 pounds) and a 2 year old lab/viszla mix (43 pounds). Currently, they are on Fromm’s Large Breed Puppy Gold and Large Breed Adult Gold. I’d love to switch them to something that’s:

* Grain-free
* Suitable for all life stages
* Has not had recalls

I’ve been intrigued by BOGO Bowl as it’s an Iowa company, but it’s simply too much money despite it being for a wonderful cause. What I absolutely loved about the idea of Fromm’s grain-free line is that there’s tons of flavors to choose from and I could mix it up a bit, but the price tag is just not wonderful for a bag of food that’s less than 30lbs when you have TWO big dogs.

I was considering Dr. Tim’s (grain-free Kinesis), but I noticed that they’re not on your list likely due to the calcium (1.51%)? I’d love to find something that’s a 30lb+ bag of food for $50 – $55. I as intrigued by Dr. Tim’s because both the grain inclusive and grain-free are 5 stars on DFA. Now that he’s passed 8 months, do you think I could switch him to Dr. Tim’s?

Would you mind sharing what you personally feed?

Also, as I’ve recently subscribed to Pawalla, they include wet foods in their boxes. Do you suggest adding wet foods to add some variety as a topping to dry every once in a while?

Thanks for your suggestions! 🙂

[mah4angel]

Hello all 😀

My silky Louie is just a mess.
Looking back at his history, I cannot honestly say that there has ever been any time when his stools were not loose, or were solid for more than one or two days. And his stools are always light-colored even when they’re relatively firm. Lately, it’s literally been borderline liquid all the time, and near the end of his walk (usually after two or three times of pooping), he’ll try to go and little specs of mush just come out 🙁
I’ll just go through his history, which I know much more about now. When we got him, we were told that he was currently eating Purina Puppy Chow, which we purchased so we could transition him off of it. We also now know that the owners simply buy whatever is on sale or whatever they happen to pick up at the store. So they’d just stop feeding the dogs the Purina then move onto Pedigree and so on and so forth. So this was his diet for about three years until we got him. We transitioned him from Purina Puppy Chow to Innova Prime Chicken and Turkey over a one-week period because we thought that was appropriate. We now know that it can take a month or more to transition to a grain-free kibble. So we understood the not-so-firm stool at that point. Then, the recall happened. I emailed CS and they never got back to me so, and their formula contains a little more carbohydrates than I would like so I decided to switch to Earthborn Holistic Primitive and the wet dinner tuns (we’re currently feeding him the lamb-based one). While switching him to the Earthborn, my jerk of a father-in-law decided I was incapable of feeding my dog and started feeding him Cesar wet food. I figured the switching over and the Cesar caused his loose stools (I know that it caused him to vomit, there was no other reason for that). Now that he isn’t eating the Cesar’s crap, his stools are awful. I give him 3/8’s of a cup of the dry kibble and then half of a tub of the wet food (because he needs restricted calories because he’s almost a pound overweight now).
So, I have no idea what’s going on with him 🙁 The only consistent thing about all of the dry food is that the main animal protein is chicken. Maybe he’s allergic to chicken? He’s had two ear infections since we’ve had him (since March), which may be a sign of allergies. He sometimes paws at his face but since he has an ear infection, that’s not surprising. It’s also very rare that he does that. I really don’t know! I don’t know what to do. I got the lamb wet tubs because I thought that lamb is better for sensitive tummies/a hypoallergenic protein source.
I’m thinking of switching to Dried N Alive (I was thinking of doing that before discovering that his stools are no better on Earthborn) but what if that’s no better? I don’t know what I’m doing wrong.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi wallyworld –

It sounds like you’re in a very tough situation, sorry to hear this. 🙁

I’ve been in a similar situation with my vet. She knows next to nothing and is a Science Diet/Purina pusher, however my family has brought animals to her for nearly 20 years and she’s never steered us wrong in any non-nutritional area. You just need to stick to your guns and go in armed with information from veterinarians and nutritionists that are actually knowledgeable out nutrition. Let her know you’ve done your research and that you respect her opinion but you don’t appreciate her pushing low quality foods on you. The majority of vets typically don’t know a whole lot about nutrition. I’m not saying that no vets are knowledgeable about nutrition, however a vet trying to tell you what you should feed your dog would be the equivalent of your general practitioner trying to give you specialized nutritional advice. Your general practitioner may know a few things about nutrition but if you really need advice you you go to a nutritionist or dietician. Bring in copies of the articles I’ve linked to – Jennifer Larsen wrote one of the articles and she is a diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (I highly doubt your vet has any such qualifications to counter the claim of a veterinary nutritionist). It may not change anything and ultimately you have to do what you’re comfortable with and what you think is in the best interest of your dog. If you don’t believe Science Diet is in your dog’s best interest and you don’t feel comfortable feeding it let your vet know. If you’d rather follow your vet’s advice, then by all means feed Science Diet. Another option would be seeking out a nutritional consultant online – some will give phone consultations and customized menus.

Also – were the issues due to the treats or to the food?

[DieselJunki]

+1 on the tripe. I used the Tripett with some warm water for my picky puppy and he wolfed his food down like no tomorrow when previously he wouldn’t touch it.

[DieselJunki]

Ok so I think I got what I want to do down.

Moose is 50lbs (Just weighed him). Feeding him 4% of his body weight to start off I think and will adjust from there (He got really underweight at his boarding kennel, his hip bones are exposed, I’m pretty angry about it, someone could have called me and told me so I could tell them to up his food. Grr). I have decided to start off I’m going to do what HDM does and feed a grind in the morning and then an RMB at night which will probably be turkey necks.

If I were to feed 1lb of the chicken grind from MPC in the morning and then 1lb or turkey necks at night for a whole month does that sound like a pretty balanced diet for a 7 month old large breed (American Bull Dog) puppy? It’s the whole bone/calcium thing that kind of scares me.

Since coming back from his boarding kennel (I brought his food with him so he has been on THK since he has been there also) he has been super gassy and he poops 5 times a day at least and they are very very soft. I have upped his feedings to 2.5 cups in the morning and 2.5 at night to try and put some weight back on him so he doesn’t look so emaciated. I really am angry they allowed him to get that skinny. Really kicking myself for boarding him there, but they had excellent reviews and we even did a puppy class with the trainer and it seemed like a wonderful place. Can’t wait to get him right again.

[pugmomsandy]

My dogs eat (mine and fosters) Nutrisource grain free Lamb or Heartland Select and occasionally the grain-inclusive puppy formula, Nature’s Select grain free and occasionally the Hi-Pro (puppy) formula, Nutrisca (all 3 flavors) and Brothers Complete Beef and Fish formulas. I feed puppy formulas sometimes to the emaciated ones. I’ve heard alot of people say their dogs do well on Victor dog food. For cans I use Wellness stews, Merrick classic and Merrick 96%, Weruva, Addiction, Tripett, Nutrisca and I have Sojo’s Complete (dehydrated) and Addiction (dehydrated) also. It has more volume when served but not alot of calories to I add kibble or eggs to it for added protein. The Costco brand Kirkland Cuts in Gravy is only $1 a can but I don’t have Costco near me.

The dogs usually get kibble with a different can several days a week and I have 3 bags of kibble open all the time. So they could literally eat something different every day or every meal. And that’s not including my raw fed dogs that also eat a variety.

I will say that I started out having 2 bags of food open and when one ran out I would get a different one so the dogs would always get something “new” with their “old” food so they wouldn’t have tummy upsets. But I’ve changed so often they don’t have that problem anymore. Probiotics and digestive enzymes help with that too.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u651/pugmomsandy/pictures%20for%20posting/2012_12_28cannedfoods765x1024_zpseae4fea6.jpg

[Dustin-R]

Hello All,
I just found this site. It has a great wealth if information. I still am wondering about food for my 12 week Rottweiler. The breeder was feeding Blue Buffalo Wilderness Puppy , and I have continued feeding this since I picked him up at 8 weeks. I was wondering what would be recommended as a better food for him? It is stated as 36% protein, 16% fat, 6% max crude fiber, 10% moisture max, 1% calcium max , .9% phosphorus, .1% DHA, .9% omega 3 fatty acids. 3% omega 6 fatty acids. I have a TSC, PETCO, and Petsmart that are local. I would prefer local as to online. I would buy online if that was my only means to get what I needed for Him. I would also like to know what would be recommended when he is older.
Thanks
Dustin R

Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Tapioca Starch,Peas,Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene),Dried Egg, Natural Chicken Flavor, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Fish Oil (source of DHA-Docosahexaenoic Acid), Potatoes, Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids),Alfalfa Meal, Potato Starch, Whole Carrots,Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Barley Grass,Dried Parsley,Dried Kelp,Taurine,Yucca Schidigera Extract,L-Carnitine, L-Lysine,Turmeric,Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene,Vitamin A Supplement,Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1),Riboflavin (Vitamin B2),Niacin (Vitamin B3),d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6),Biotin (Vitamin B7),Folic Acid (Vitamin B9),Vitamin B12 Supplement,Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C),Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement,Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate,Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate,Choline Chloride,Sodium Selenite,Calcium Iodate,Salt,Caramel,Potassium Chloride,Dried Yeast (source of Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product,Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product,Dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product

[lovemylab]

Thank you HDM for this great list of foods. I’ve been feeding my 6 month old lab earthborn costal catch, which he did really well on. We just started transitioning to Natures variety with a merrick or wellness core can for a topper. Was just wondering how long would I have to watch out for calcium levels in his food?

[Blu3Igu4n4]

Both of these dog foods have great ingredients but while I was researching more on Orijen, I notice that on the puppy food with the original bag logo contain russet potatoes (amazon ingredient list) and the one with the new logo does not as their website has described
INGREDIENTS
Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, chicken fat, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, brown kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.

Did they took out the potatoes or is it still the same?
Also I’m debating which dog food I should get, money is no problem. I have a 7 weeks fixing to be 8 weeks Siberian Husky which I’m feeding her Earthborn Coastal Catch. Or is she fine with Earthborn for now? Excuse for all the questions, I love my puppy and I want to give her the best.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi boxermim2013 –

I can relate to you here. One of my girls, Gertie (the dog in my avatar) is extremely difficult to keep weight on. She was so scrawny as a pup I had tests run too and they came back clear. The vet told me once she was spayed she’d put some weight on, but she was spayed 2 years ago and keeping weight on her is still a struggle. With her, as long as her hip bones aren’t protruding I feel I’m doing good!

I wasn’t able to get her over 60 lbs. until I switched her to a high protein, high fat, low carbohydrate raw diet. I make her food and I generally keep protein between 45% and 55%, fat between 30% and 40% and carbs less than 20%. I’ve now got her holding steady at 68 lbs. – given her height she should be much heavier, but at least she doesn’t look emaciated any more. I also give her lots of treats between meals, I mostly feed balanced foods as treats so I can feed her more without throwing off her diet – i.e. freeze-dried raw medallions, frozen kongs layered with grain-free kibble and canned pumpkin, ziwi peak food for training treats and (prior to the recent recall) I was using EVO’s Wild Craving biscuits which conform to AAFCO nutrient profiles for balanced foods.

Some other options – Abady makes a very calorie-dense granular food – it has around 800 calories per cup (nearly double the calories of Blue Buffalo). I’ve used Abady and before and was pleased. I also know people that have put weight on their dogs with satin balls – you can look up recipes online – they usually include fatty hamburger, eggs, oil, molasses, etc. You could add a balanced omega 3-6-9 and/or coconut oil to his food for a fat/calorie boost. You could try supplementing with digestive enzymes to ensure he’s digesting everything he does eat. If you want to stick with kibble, I’d also recommend at least picking a more calorie-dense formula (>500 kcal. per cup). Some calorie-dense options include – Canine Caviar Grain-Free Puppy (636 kcal. per cup), Dr. Tim’s Momentum (588 kcal. per cup), NutriSource Super Performance (529 kcal. per cup), Timberwolf Organics (I believe all the grain-free formulas are over 500 kcal. per cup).

Good luck!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[DieselJunki]

I’m not sure the Purina would really help anything (It’s an awful food in my opinion)… I would put him back on the Fromms. The Fromms is at least a much better kibble and then add in a probiotic. I use the Mercola one’s but if price is an issue for you the Swanson one’s would definitely be cheaper per dose.

I heard you say he doesn’t like to eat sometimes, Hound Dog Mom suggested Trippet for my puppy when he was a picky eater. A couple spoonfuls and he was chowing down!

Vets really aren’t all that great when it comes to the nutritional requirements of a dog. If all else fails and you can’t get the yeast under control think about raw. I’ve heard many stories where feeding raw helped allergies, smelly dogs, yeasty dogs, ear infections, ect. Not that it fixes all problems but I believe what I read was that kibble is full of carbs that contribute to feeding the yeast.

[Saireah]

I posted earlier in this thread regarding our new foster puppy (then failed foster puppy) Riggs… he’s now six months old and doing great. I have been feeding him Fromm’s Large Breed Puppy Gold. He’s been flourishing on it and it’s a great price in my area ($49 for a 33lb bag). It took me a bit to swallow that it’s only a 4 star food because it is grain inclusive, but my 2 year old lab/vizsla mix has been doing so much better since I took her off of grain-free food. I have her on the Adult Gold and chose the Large Breed Puppy Gold so I could do Fromm’s buy-12-get-13th-free This is strange, I know, and I’m in no way advocating switching to grain-inclusive – it just seemed as if grain-free was too rich for her.

I wanted to throw the option of Fromm’s Large Breed Puppy Gold out there to everyone as an alternative if you’re a bit concerned about budget. What was interesting to me is that it has less calcium than Fromm’s GF Game Bird Recipe. It does have a bit less protein, but I think it looks pretty good when I did my original research on it. Feel free to correct me, though. 🙂

And their Large Breed Puppy Gold bags currently have incorrect feeding guidelines on them due to some regulatory issues, but if you e-mail Fromm’s customer service, they will send you a document with the proper guidelines.

I should note that, once Riggs turns a year old, I am going to try and transition them both to a grain-free Fromm’s 4 Star line and see how Quinn does again. But, for the year in which he is literally inhaling his food, I had to be a bit budget-minded. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi newsaintowner –

Never be embarrassed to ask questions! 🙂

Yes, according to the calcium levels provided to me by Wellness, the Wellness CORE puppy formula is acceptable for large breed puppies. Feed the amount that keeps your pup in optimal body condition – with a Saint you’ll likely need to be adjusting portions pretty frequently for the first year as they grow quickly. Also, despite their size Saints don’t typically have high energy (calorie) requirements. I have two friends with Saints – both of their Saints (~180 lbs.) eat less then my hounds (70 lbs. – 110 lbs.). A lot of the giant bulky breeds like Saints tend to have slow metabolisms so you’re going to have to watch the weight carefully. I understand the concern over foods being labeled “large breed” and foods only being labeled “puppy.” From my experience contacting companies to determine the appropriateness of their formulas for growing large breed puppies, I found that a “large breed” puppy formula is no more likely to be appropriate for large breed growth than a regular “puppy formula” or “all life stages” formula. In fact, you’ll notice not one “large breed puppy” formula made my list. This is because every 4 or 5 star grain-free large breed puppy formula I found had excessive levels of calcium. What I was seeing is that companies were merely reducing the fat, calorie and protein levels in their large breed formula and the calcium levels were often the same or more than in their regular puppy or all life stages formulas! Based on current research it is known that fat and protein have no effect on the incidence of developmental orthopedic disease in large/giant breed puppies and that calcium does. Calories only have an effect on developmental orthopedic disease if they are consumed in excess (i.e. the puppy is allowed to be overweight) – this doesn’t mean that large/giant breed puppies need reduced calorie foods, it merely means their portions need to be controlled. So in short, in order to limited your pup’s chances of developing an orthopedic condition, feed appropriate levels of calcium, keep your pup in optimal body condition and avoid strenuous and high impact activities until your pup is fully grown (24 months of age for a Saint). Good luck with the new pup and don’t be afraid to come back if you have any more questions!

[newsaintowner]

Hi there –
I am a new member, but I have been eavesdropping for weeks! I can’t tell you how invaluable all the great information here has been to me, especially your posts, HDM… Thank you so much!! We have a seventeen week Saint Bernard puppy who is very particular about what he will eat. He seems to really like a food, and then he will gradually become less and less enthusiastic until he flat-out quits eating.
To get to the point, my question is regarding Wellness Core puppy food. I bought a small bag and our puppy seems to like it ( at least for now!). I know this is on your list of acceptable grain free foods, HDM, but I just wanted to confirm that it is indeed safe to feed, despite the fact that it is not labeled “large breed”. I am assuming that I can compensate for the higher fat and calories by feeding less food and just watching our pup’s overall condition.
I am a bit embarrassed to even ask, but I just had to double check with you, HDM, because of all the dire warnings about feeding a large breed puppy regular puppy food. I am assuming these warnings all are directed at the calcium levels. Thank you for you time and for all the great information!

[theBCnut]

I feed all my dogs, including an 11 yr old, All Life Stages foods which are puppy and every other age foods. I feel they are better quality than Adult foods.

I have a puppy that can’t handle grains in his diet, so I know first hand that feeding grain free is just fine for puppies. I’ve heard all kinds of mixed answers too, but the things people say against feeding high protein are based on old research that was proved both faulty and false. Unfortunately, old wives tales are difficult to kill.

[wallyworld]

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all of the great info on this forum. I have a 12 week old Goldendoodle. He is estimated to be around 65 to 70 lbs. I have driven myself crazy trying to find the best puppy food to feed him. I finally chose Fromm Gold large breed puppy as I was comfortable with the ingredients and the levels of calcium/phosphorus were low. He has been sick the past week, vet has him on a bland diet. I fear the issue might be his food and am preparing to switch if needed. I know HDM has a great list for food, but wanted everyone’s opinion on 2 things. 1. Is it ok to feed large breed puppy a non puppy food?
2. Is it ok to feed puppy a grain free diet?
I have been getting mixed answers from my research and don’t know what to do. Help!!

[Boxermom]

Hello,
I started my dog on Acana puppy large breed (5 stars rated, 55% meat) and I’m very pleased with it. However, a dog trainer I know, recently told me that because we feed smaller amount in rich quality dog foods, while this amount is enough for the physical needs of the dog, it doesn’t fill the dog’s belly, so the dog doesn’t feel full. And I can not add more food to the daily amount, because then the dog will gain weight.
What do you think about it? I want to feed my dog quality food, but I don’t want him to be hungry all the time… I now feed him 150g less then in his former food ( it’s 400g per day, and he’s 25 kg, but in the adult food it’s less then that). Is there anyway of knowing if a dog is really hungry?
I’d be happy to hear any thought or opinions from anyone!
Thank you.

[debdfwrealtor]

I have been feeding my 7 yr old lab TOTW Pacific Stream for a year now. He does great on it….wonderful coat, healthy…does have some gas. I just got a new lab puppy. i read the ingredients on the TOTW regular and puppy formula and the ingredients are pretty close to the same. Should I feed her (the pup) the puppy food or is the regular okay? Also, I was trying to find a food that was a little less expensive and have friends that feed their labs BB food. Are they comparable? And, none of the premium foods have “large breed” puppy food that I have seen in Science Diet, Iams, etc. Does it make a difference? I know there are several questions within this post, but just really need guidance to feed my kids. Thanks!

[Jfa0930]

Ok, guys. I’m back. I had switched my Doberman puppy from Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy to Earthborn Holistics MeadowFeast because the Blue Buffalo was giving her diarrhea and now the Earthborn is doing the same thing. I want to feed her a 5 star food within the same price range that does not give her the poops! Any suggestions? I need to make a decision soon because I’m getting low on the bag I have and I’ll need enough to transition properly. Someone mentioned to me that they could have too much protein for her?

[august]

Hello

I just want to say a huge thank you to Hound Dog Mom for all the work she’s put into this research. While our family has had dogs growing up (and we still have two lovely cuddlers) I am going to be getting a puppy of my own in 2 weeks. He will be a 9 week old black lab/great dane mix and I’m really excited.

From what I’ve seen on the forums here I’m planning on rotating between 2 different dry foods with some canned for breakfast and dinner. Using HDM’s list I’ve decided the first food will be Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain: Salmon because I know I can get it at our local Costco for $35 and it got 4 stars. I’ll choose another food to rotate from the list once I find out what we have in town.

My question is this: Should I factor in the calcium and protein levels of the canned food on top of the dry food? It seems pretty self-explanatory, I know, but I’m a new dog mom and I really want to get this right!

Second question: Does anyone have any recommendations for the amount I should be feeding? I’ll go through this topic again after I post to make sure I didn’t miss anything. This is the first time I’ve had responsibility for another being and I desperately want to make sure I don’t overfeed. Right now I’m planning three feedings a day with breakfast and dinner having canned food on the dry and the noon feeding being used mostly for training purposes.

Any advice welcome!

[Tuckers Mom]

Hi, need some advice please. I have a 11 month old 60 lb. mix. I’ve been told Lab/Shepherd or Lab/Rotty. He seems to be showing some signs of hip dysplasia, I have a vet appointment at the end of the month. I’ve been feeding him Taste of the Wild for several months now. When I went to the pet store they told me they were out of TOTW Puppy and said there was no problem using the adult since there wasn’t much difference. Did my not using Puppy make a difference? After reading Hound Dog’s list for large breed it looks like I’ll be making a food change anyway. I was thinking about starting him on a joint supplement. Aren’t ones for humans more reasonably priced than for dog. Thanks for any advice.

[rockpinefarm]

My chihuahua was also diagnosed with heart disease (an enlarged heart) 1.5 years ago. It has been a nonstop research project on what to feed her. My vet recommended Canidae’s Lamb and Rice because of the low sodium (.17%). Seriously, I have done weeks of research. She was on Wellness canned until I found a 1.5″ wood splinter in the Turkey n’ Duck. I only found it because I cut up the meat chunks into smaller pieces. A month earlier I found 2 much smaller pieces but I thought they may be roots of a vegetable. However, I did keep all the wood splinters and called Wellness. They confirmed that it was a wood splinter but felt it was an isolated incident! Anyway, I think the healthiest food would be to fix your own by purchasing or growing your own meat. Do you have any access to some local beef, chicken, buffalo or venison? Then just add The Missing Link plus any other vitamins/minerals that she needs. I began going to Woody’s Pet Food Deli in St. Paul, MN where they make raw and cooked food right there. They are also the ones that informed me that lamb meat can cause inflammation because it is considered a “hot” meat by the old eastern ways. So, now I am seriously considering making my own dog food. My chihuahua is also on enalapril, furomeside(lasix) and about 9 months ago I started her on Vetmedin…which has made her back to her puppy energy level. I get it through Vets First Choice because it is half the price of my vet! Good luck with your little sweetheart! I will keep posting as we progress on this food search!

[theBCnut]

You work with interesting people. I homeschool my kids, so most of my conversations are with other homeschool moms. Guess what they want to talk about. What about high school? Where is so and so going to college? Do you have to have 2 years of a foreign language? BORING!!! People ask me about my animals, but in a “How are you?” way. They don’t want a real answer, unless they are asking about the availability of eggs.

A friend of mine was telling me how her puppy had to have a very expensive special high protein diet. I said “i know what you mean, I have the same problem.” Then I asked her what she was feeding. Diamond Naturals Puppy. Never mind. It suddenly became like we don’t even speak the same language. I finally did get her convinced that her dog was too precious to risk on Diamond.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi hassiman –

Your breeder could not be more incorrect. You can’t feed a dog “too much” protein – excess protein that is not used by the body is passively excreted though the urine causing no stress on the organs. Protein is very important for all dogs and especially growing puppies. I wouldn’t even feed a food with 21% protein to an adult dog, let alone a puppy. I always recommend picking a dry food with at least 30% protein and topping with high quality canned foods, raw foods or healthy “people” food (sardines, eggs, lean meat, etc.) to boost protein further. I have 3 bloodhounds – an 8 month old puppy, a 2 year old adult and a 7 year old senior – that all eat a raw diet with protein levels in the 45-55% range. It is now known that reducing protein levels does nothing to prevent renal failure and that protein levels should only be reduced in the late stages of renal failure. Orijen is a wonderful food (the best dry food available in my opinion) and I think you made a great choice that you should stick with regardless of your breeder’s (incorrect) beliefs. If you go to the “library” on Orijen’s website they have some wonderful articles about the importance of dietary protein and the myths surrounding high levels of dietary protein. I’d highly recommend you read these articles to ease your mind. The three I’d recommend you read are: “Myths of High Protein” which was written by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc at Penn State’s veterinary school; “Effects of High Protein on Renal Function” by Delmar R. Finco, DVM, PhD for the Department of Physiology and Pharmacology at the University of Georgia’s school of veterinary medicine; “Pet Food Safety: Dietary Protein” by DP Laflamme, DVM, PhD, Dipl ACVN. To get to the articles from Orijen’s homepage click “FAQ” on the top menu, then click “Library” on the new top menu that appears. You may also want to refer your breeder to these articles before he/she provides any more unknowing puppy buyers with such misguided advice.

[hassiman]

My breeder thinks that 21% protein is about as high a level protein a Puppy should get. I am feeding white-meat chicken, pumpkin and Orijen Puppy kibble which is rated at 40% grain-free protein.

She says too much protein can damage a dog’s liver. kidneys etc. Says around 21-25% is better for the pooch. My dog is an 8 month old cocker.

Any food recomendations?

Any opinions out there?

[DieselJunki]

I would vouch for what Hound Dog Mom has to say. She knows her stuff. Seriously go to the Diet and Health Issues forum and look at the first topic there about Large and Giant Breed Nutrition. You will find ALL your answers in that topic. I know I did.

My breeder also suggested a low protein diet and extra calcium to fix my dogs crooked leg. Turns out I was feeding a diet much to high in calcium and in doing more research on the calcium issue learned that it is the high calcium that causes most issues. Not the protein. Took him to the vet, got a splint right off the bat, took splint off in 4 days, completely fixed his leg. Haven’t had an issue since switching his food and getting that splint.

[suztzu]

The associate was very wrong, puppies espcially need a good amount of protein and fat they are both essential to a growing puppy. Both are good foods the Core I thought was an all life stage food and the kibble is quite large for a small puppy if he’s a gulper like mine is. My shih tzu Leo would swallow them whole and throw it up a half hour later gross. Earthborn holistics, Blue Buffalo wilderness Innova prime, Natures Variety Instinct are also all good products. When you transition him over to a different food do it slowly because some of the grain free foods are also high in fat and can cause loose stool. I never feed my dogs anything with protein under 28 to 30 % if I can help it. I also will give them Natures Variety Instinct canned at least once a day mixed in the kibble to boost the protein levels. Have fun with puppy good luck

[Hound Dog Mom]

Feyconri –

There is NO link between high protein levels and developmental orthopedic diseases in large and giant breed puppies – this is a common myth. I suggest you go the large and giant breed puppy nutrition topic and start researching by reading some of the articles posted (written by veterinarians and nutritionists). I have giant breeds and my last two puppies were raised on high protein (>40%) grain-free food with low calcium levels. They had slow and controlled growth with no incidence of DOD.

[jnconner]

Help! First, let me stated this is my first pet ever so I’m new to the dog game, so to speak. I’m an advocate for the healthy, wholefood, holistic approach as it relates to my family and I would like to include our newest addition as well. I have a four month old toy poodle name Coco who is currently on Science Diet. This is what his breeder was feeding him. After recently finding out the contents in dog food, I would like to switch him to a 4/5 Star quality dog food such as Wellness Core Grain Free puppy formula or Blue Freedom Grain Free for puppies asap.
My question is around the amount of protein. Should I be concerned with the percentage of protein for a dog of his size (3.5lbs)? Is 36% crude protein to high?
My question steams from my visit to PetSmart where a sale associate recommended me not to use Wellness Core Grain Free due to the high protein content stating it would be to much for his system to handle and toy breeds don’t need this much protein.
The Wellness Core Grain Free Puppy Formula has 36% crude protein and the Blue Freedom Grain Free Formula has 27% crude protein.
I’m just trying to find the best food for my toy poodle that will aid in his growth to becoming a healthy adult with many years of life. Thanks for your feedback.

[Caoimhe]

Hi everyone,

I am getting my second Irish Wolfhound in about 8 weeks. 🙂 I am having issues deciding on what to feed the new girl. I fed my last wolfhound innova, but he did awful on it, so I would like to try something different for this new puppy.

So I was wondering what other foods would be good? Money is no issue, I just want a high quality food. I swear this is the most stressful part! 🙂

Also, my last wolfhound had issues with easty/westy feet, which I think was caused by his food more than genetic, as all of his litter mates ha perfectly straight feet. I try to research the foods, so I am currently thinking something from the Fromm line of foods.

Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi fortunatecookie –

Lucky dogs – Orijen and NV Instinct are my two favorite kibbles. I feed raw now, but when I fed kibble my dog did far better on these two foods than on any others. Both are labeled for “All Life Stages.” The AAFCO recognizes two nutrient profiles: growth and maintenance. If a food meets the more stringent “growth” requirement the company can choose to label it as “All Life Stages” rather then “Puppy” or “Growth.” So a food labeled for all life stages is the same as a puppy food. Personally, I wouldn’t switch to one brand. Feeding one brand continuously is very unhealthy – dogs, like people, need variety, there is no “perfect” food. Both are wonderful foods so I would rotate both dogs between brands and maybe even pick out a third brand to rotate in occasionally.

[pugmomsandy]

KGM801,

Also feeding different forms of food can be beneficial like incorporating some canned food, freeze dried or dehydrated and even raw. You can even add eggs or sardines to the kibble. Right now I’m mixing in some Vital Esssentials freeze dried nibblets with my dogs kibble. Sometimes it canned and kibble. Then some days they just get a raw meaty bone or whole raw sardine.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Back when my oldest dog was eating kibble I switched to a new food with a new protein source at the end of every bag (for him this was about every 3 weeks). I know many that rotate this way and others that feed one food for several months and then switch. I currently feed all three of my dogs a homemade diet and they get something completely different at every meal. I would say that as long as you’re switching at least every 6 months you should be fine. Just to warn you though – the first few times you switch you’ll probably need to do slow transition and you may see some loose stools. This is normal for dogs that aren’t used to switching foods – the probiotics and pumpkin that I mentioned before will help with this. Once your dog is used to switching her digestive tract will become more resilient and you should be able to switch cold turkey with no transition.

[Hound Dog Mom]

A doberman would be considered a large breed, however I know that dobermans are one of the few large breeds not particularly prone to hip dysplasia so calcium levels may not be as much of an issue. You could always talk to your breeder about it. It’s generally recommended to feed large breed puppies foods lower in calcium until they’re at least 6 months old as high levels of calcium have been linked to the development of dysplasia.

[KGM801]

Thanks! I didn’t know that you’re supposed to rotate foods! She is a Doberman, I know the breeder was feeding her large breed puppy food but she’s not really considered a large breed, right? So confusing…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi KGM801 –

I’ve hear A LOT of people complaining about Blue Buffalo giving their dogs diarrhea. If you read through the Blue Buffalo thread on the review section there are tons of complaints, many have complained to Consumer Affairs as well and you can read those complains on the Consumer Affairs website. Last summer my friend got a new puppy and switched her from the food the breeder had her on (Science Diet) to Blue Buffalo and the dog got horrible diarrhea, she then tried another comparable food and the diarrhea cleared up overnight. So you’re not alone! I think the company has some serious quality control issues, I know I lost my trust in the company after I got a bag of cat food covered with mold and dog biscuits with bugs in the bag…

First off – have you had the pup checked for worms, coccidia and giarrdia? If you haven’t do that.

Second – “this is a big decision because whichever I decide on will most likely be what I feed her for her whole life!” PLEASE do not feed the same food for your dog’s entire life! Feeding the same food for extended periods of time is so unhealthy. Pick at least two or three brands and rotate, dogs need variety. No single food can provide a living thing with all the nutrients they need.

Any 4/5 star food would be worth a try. I know Blue Buffalo runs about $50-$55 for the largest bag. Some 4/5 star foods in that price range that I’d suggest checking out are: Earthborn, Merrick Grain-Free, Solid Gold Barking at the Moon, Nature’s Variety Instinct, Horizon Legacy, NutriSource Grain-Free and Horizon Pulsar.

If your pup is a large breed, however, there are other nutritional considerations and I would recommend picking a food off this list:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFQXNYZW01VzRVV00/edit?usp=sharing

Adding some plain canned pumpkin and a probiotic supplement will help with the diarrhea. Good luck! 🙂

[KGM801]

I transitioned her about a week ago and she’s only had one solid poop since then- right after she snuck some of her dog-cousins food out of his bowl, and it was the cheap stuff! Basically, this food is not working and the vet tells me a week of diarrhea means it’s time to give up. I want a high quality food around the Blue Buffalo price range but maybe a little better quality (5 star.) I won’t do Taste of the Wild because my last dog died and that’s what she ate (I am paranoid.) Any suggestions on which food to go to? Also, do I still transition her the same way if she’s been getting sick from the Blue Buffalo? Any help would be much appreciated, this is a big decision because whichever I decide on will most likely be what I feed her for her whole life! Thanks

[lewalk]

Okay, here’s my situation that I’m hoping to get some help with. There are no shelters or rescues in the parishes where I live and work so the animal problem is out of control. I have become the crazy dog lady around these parts. It’s to the point where people stop me on my mail route and offer me dogs. Ten years ago we bought our daughter a lab. I didn’t know better than to not shop, adopt. I do now. Actually I pick up starving and abandoned dogs rather than adopt. This has led to my having the lab who is ten and seven other dogs age three and under. I have realized recently that I need to change their food as they have an array of health problems. My lab is fairly healthy with the exception of dry skin and icky runny eyes. The three year old rat terrier has an itchy behind and has developed a darker pinkish tint bordering on a rash on his belly and inside his arms. The three year old pit mix is surprisingly healthy especially since she was starving when I picked her up. The one year old husky/German shepherd mix is healthy as well. I picked up four pit mix litter mates several months ago running down the highway in the rain. We have since learned they have an immune disorder which has led to them having red mange. The two black pups have dry skin and runny eyes like my lab. One brown pup has diabetes and one has recurring yeast infections on her belly. They are all on a mix of Red Flannel Adult and Purina Puppy Chow with Red Flannel Puppy recently mixed in. I feed them all the same food because it’s easier for me because they always want what the others are eating. I just realized their health problems could be from food allergies. Of course I feed the diabetic dog differently. She eats Science Diet w/d dry and canned food. I don’t have the money to spend a fortune on food as I have a lot of vet bills but I want them to be healthy and happy. Added to this is a puppy less than a year old who has IVDD. I had the sheriff go to the people’s house that had her and talk to them as she was barely able to walk and they weren’t caring for her. Cut to, me having another baby to care for. My saint of a mother is keeping her at her house while we give her the time she needs to rest and hopefully heal. I was also wondering if there was something I could feed her to boost her immune system as well. I was never really an animal person so I don’t know much. I’m trying to learn but am a bit overwhelmed. I will gladly accept all advice and be very thankful for it. I’m sure I haven’t included the correct info. I tend to ramble on and on when it comes to my fur babies.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi lovemylab –

I think high protein grain-free foods are best for all dogs. There’s a whole topic area here dedicated to large and giant breed puppy nutrition:

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

You don’t need to feed a “large breed” specific puppy food. You need to look for a food with appropriate calcium levels that is approved for “growth” or “all life stages.” Here is a list of 4 and 5 star grain-free foods appropriate for large breed puppies:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFQXNYZW01VzRVV00/edit?usp=sharing

[sheila23]

Astroweeks-

I had a shepherd mix with SBS syndrome as well, and tried all sorts of things. We had him on metronidazole off and on, did pumpkin consistently and fortiflora as well as probiotics from Petco (their specific brand worked the best for some reason) and b12 shots. I tried this stuff from Amazon, just on a whim

in combo with the prescription Hills I/D, along with his normal routine mentioned above and he started putting on weight and feeling better! Not sure if it was one thing in particular or a combination of everything! I never had much success with yogurt, but that’s not to say it won’t help you out. We eventually stopped the high calorie supplement and switched him to Wellness core once he put on weight. My vet had mentioned feeding puppy food as well, as its higher calorie usually. Anyways, hopefully you got something from that!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

When feeding a line of food in which the formulas aren’t labeled “all life stages” (meaning there are separate foods for puppies, adults and seniors) I think any dog, regardless of age, should eat the puppy formula. My mom uses Whole Earth Farm Puppy in her food rotation for her adult dog. You’re paying the same price for a higher quality food (more fat, more protein = more meat). Pet food companies have created this idea in people’s heads that dogs suddenly need a different food when they go from a puppy to an adult or an adult to a senior. As long as the food is high quality and supplies adequate amounts of protein, fat and key nutrients, it’s good for life. If you notice most 5 star foods don’t have puppy, adult and senior formulas and the nutrition statement on the side doesn’t read “growth” or “maintenance” – it reads “all life stages.” “All life stages” foods meet the same requirements as “growth” (puppy) foods. The AAFCO recognizes two nutrient profiles – “maintenance” (more lax – the foods labeled for maintenance are generally lower in protein and fat) and “growth” (more stringent – the food must have more protein, fat and other nutrients). A company that has a food that meets the more stringent “growth” requirements can label that formula for growth or all life stages. Therefore a food labeled for “growth” is an all life stages food and a food labeled for “all life stages” is appropriate for growth. So my recommendation would be to put your dogs on the puppy formula and keep them on the puppy formula – there’s no reason they need to move to a lower protein and fat formula just because they’re adults. I have three dogs – a 7 year old senior, 2 year old adult and 7 month old puppy – they all eat the same food. Animals in the wild don’t suddenly start eating new foods just because they age.