[Dori]

Thanks Sarah L. for the reply. I placed an order for the trial size and am going to give it a try. With the raw food recalls of the last few weeks I’m looking for alternatives. I appreciate your getting back to me and will do like wise in making larger batches and freeze. I only have the freezer at the bottom of fridge so I’ll use the Food Saver bags so that I can lay them flat since dear hubby insists we have some frozen people food also. Really, all he wants is some ice cream in the freezer and frozen fruits and veggies for the smoothies I make when fresh is not available.

[Jon K]

I’m new here. Have a 2 yr old Boston who eats Vital Essentials Frozen Raw Beef. She seems to do very well on it.
I joined this group because we just got a new Boston puppy and I wasn’t sure that the same food was ideal for a puppy.
So because of the editors list, he’s now eating Stella’s Super Beef and seems to be doing great.
My 2 year old tried the Stella’s before and I’m not sure why but we ended up with her eating Vital Essentials.
So thanks for this list because I was very confused and conflicted as to what to feed the puppy and this gave me the info I needed.
I was surprised not to see Vital Essentials Frozen Raw on the list for adult dogs though. I’m curious as to why it is not. Any info would be appreciated.
thanks!

[Pitlove]

Looks like you have good options. Are you going to be feeding canned, kibble and some form of raw all together? I tend to lean towards feeding just 2. I was feeding canned and kibble before and now I’m using kibble and Sojo’s dehydrated raw. I feel like if I added canned in there as well it would come to too many calories. I’m feeding 1/2 cup rehydrated Sojo’s and 1/2 Nature’s Logic kibble. I tried to feed him more than that and he couldn’t finish it, telling me I was feeding him too much. Feeding 1/2 and 1/2 he finishes all of it.

OR are you wanting to switch it up daily and do like some form of raw and kibble one meal and then like canned and a form of raw the next etc etc?

[Gracie’s Mom]

I get what you’re saying. I have been feeding Gracie dehydrated and freeze-dried raw, having not been successful with frozen, but I need more options in rotation so that she doesn’t get tired of any one food after a few weeks. Also, the expense of straight-up, prepared raw is very high. And, lastly, there’s the sometimes quite high fat content that is of concern (e.g., K9 Natural) in the dried raw foods. So, I’ve been on the hunt for several high quality kibbles and canned options to mix with dried raw, both to lower the overall cost and to put the fat in better balance. Does that make sense? I am willing to concede that allowing in some starches is going to be inevitable with this plan.

Here’s what I’ve come up with that could work for Gracie. The fat percentages are approximates based on the flavor that Mike reviewed.

Base Mix
Honest Kitchen Preference

Canned
Against the Grain (20% fat/protein ratio)
Chicken (but does contain potato starch)
Beef (but does contain potato starch)

Addiction (53% fat/protein ratio)
Hunter’s Venison
Herbed Duck Confit

Tripett (58% fat/protein ratio)
Green Bison Tripe
Original Green Beef Tripe
Green Beef Tripe and Venison
New Zealand Green Lamb Tripe
Green Beef Tripe, Duck and Salmon

ZiwiPeak (71% fat/protein ratio)
Beef
Lamb
Venison
Venison and Fish
Tripe, Lamb, and Venison

Dry Kibble:

Nulo Freestyle (48% fat/protein ratio)
Turkey and Sweet Potato
Salmon and Peas
Lamb and Chickpeas

Nulo Medal (51% fat/protein ratio)
Lamb and Lentils
Chicken and Peas
Salmon and Sweet Potato

Nature’s Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient (68% fat/protein ratio)
Turkey
Lamb
Duck

Acana Singles (56% fat/protein ratio)
Pork and Butternut Squash
Duck and Bartlett Pear
Lamb and Okanagan Apple

Wysong Epigen 90 (25% fat/protein ratio)
Chicken

Freeze Dried, Air Dried, or Dehydrated Raw:

K9 Natural (90%+ fat/protein ratio)
Venison (but does contain eggs, a borderline allergen)
Lamb (but does contain eggs, a borderline allergen)

Fresh Is Best (50% fat/protein ratio)
Chicken
Beef

Vital Essentials (79% fat/protein ratio)
Tripe
Beef
Chicken
Turkey

ZiwiPeak (79% fat/protein ratio)
Venison
Venison and Fish
Lamb
Beef

[Susan]

Hi Iosul, if Patch was your dog what would you do? When Patch had Endoscope & biopsies done last December 2014 the Diagnosis said “Moderate to chronic Lymphocytic Gastritis with associated spiral bacteria infection”.. her comment was “Helicobacter are controversial pathogens in dogs & cats being present in asymptomatic animals. Where there is significant pathology in combination with characteristic clinical signs they may be significant. It is more common to see larger numbers of them in the fundic region of the stomach. This could also be a manifestation of MORE EXTENSIVE inflammatory bowel disease..

The live Probiotics the Naturopath wanted him to take make him feel sick they’re gluten &
dairy free & are kept in the fridge I read that some probiotics can make you feel sick, the Naturopath said we need to fix his gut to get his stomach pH back to 1 again but Patch
kept regurgitating the raw diet water would come back up into his mouth & he would swallow & swallow it.. how I know it was water that was coming up is he went to look in my shopping bag to see what a lady had given me & he did his regurgitating all down the side of my bag, it just happens & he hadn’t drank any water only ate his kangaroo & 2 spoons of blended veggies about 3 hours after eating the raw for breakfast, then I thought maybe the enzymes broke the raw down too quick so I tried without the enzymes & Patch felt sick & was eating grass, like the Naturopath said would happen, I asked her what will the enzymes do she said stop any nausea & help stop any bowel rumbling & diarrhea….so I stopped the raw diet enzymes & probiotic & put him back on his kibble & started to cook but he regurgitated the cooked food as well & I never gave enzymes or probiotic, the thing is he doesn’t regurgitate soaked kibble or wet tin foods, then I thought could there be too much protein in the raw & cooked diet & he cant handle all that meat Kangaroo or beef.. where the wet tin food only has 7% (30%) protein.. the kibble he’s eating has about 22% protein.. I don’t know I cant work out how to fix him…. I will photo copy the link you posted… I need to find out how to make his gut healthy again.. I’ve tried low fat greek yogurt he started his licking & licking his mouth & wanted grass..
Lew Olson said give him L-Glutamine & cabbage juice to help with the nausea..

My vet said we may never fix this problem, at least he’s not in the condition he was in when you rescued him, I said, I suppose but I want him healthy & pain free 🙁

[Pitlove]

SkeptVet- I think you’re assuming that we are lumping all veterinarians together into one uneducated category. We’re not. We are fully aware that veterinary nutritionists exist and have extensive training in canine nutrition and that integrative vet’s also have more education on the subject as well. We are specifically talking about your run-of-the-mill, average vet that went through vet school and persuded nothing else in the way of canine nutrition education. If my vet can not have an intelligent, opened minded discussion about nutrition and food and is only pushing whatever presciption foods are on their shelves or only willing to recommend foods high in corn, wheat, soy, by-products and a bunch of other junk, I think it’s safe to assume they don’t have much training in nutrition, hence why I mentioned people’s testimonies of their vets flat out admitting they are NOT given much education about canine nutrition in vet school. Are they lying? Do you think they would put their reputation on the line by being dishonest about something like that? I don’t.

I also don’t really understand how it doesn’t make sense to you that a raw diet or homecooked diet would not be better for a species that existed for thousands of years without Science Diet and Purina. Commercial dog food has only existed for about the last 100 years, so tell me, what did dogs eat before that first bag of “dog food” was created?

Commercial dog food doesn’t exist because it is nutritionally more sound for dogs, it exists because of the convenience factor for the human providing for the dog. The average person does not have the time to prepare meals for themselves, let alone their animals, as their animals often come second to their human families and children.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Pitlove.

[Pitlove]

So this brings us to the problem with kibble in general. Those starchy carbohyrate sources provide one main thing in kibble; a binder. In order to have it’s shape kibble needs a carbohydrate to bind the food together, therefore you will never see a kibble that is completely carb free. Wysong Epigen 90 is the closest thing at only 4% carbs. Impressive for a kibble. It is really a shame that Nature’s Logic has alfalfa in it because millet is a hypo-allergenic seed and is easily digested by dogs. Millet being the carb source in NL.

If your dog is prone to yeast, staying away from starchy carbs is best, but IMO the lesser of all the evils in that list is lentils and chickpeas.

Most people will tell you that completely getting rid of allergies requires a raw diet and to be honest thats probably true. But that would take working with a nutritionist and developing recipes that would work for her and then actually making them.

Canned foods also will offer you more choices that kibble of less grains and starches, however they are not without them. Maybe look into dehyrated raw?

Edit: Also on the subject of Tripe. Most tripe is not considered complete and balanced. I know Tripett isn’t for one. One that is complete and balanced is Solid Gold’s Green Beef Tripe. I’ve used that for my dog and he loved it. Didn’t smell bad to me either.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Pitlove.

[InkedMarie]

The best food for a dog with UTI’s is a wet food: raw, canned, dehydrated/freeze dried. If you must feed kibble, add a little canned and warm water. Using a cranberry supplement is helpful as well.

[InkedMarie]

SkeptVet: you can do whatever you want. When it comes to nutrition, I do my own
research & talk to my holistic vet if I need to. I feed prey model raw, in ground
form. I honestly don’t care what my regular vets think about it. Since I see
vet food by Royal Canin, Purina & Hills/Science Diet on their shelves, that in
itself is telling. If they think those are good foods then they don’t know
enough about nutrition to advise me. Also, I don’t need advice. I can read.

Note that I said vets get very little nutrition training in vet school; if a vet is a
nutritionist or holistic vet, they have had more nutritional training.

Lastly, I own the pets, not my vet. That means that as long as am not abusing my
dogs, I’m free to make choices on what to do with my dogs.

[aquariangt]

Would you say, in general, that a human diet of dry, processed food, even if considered a complete meal (think perhaps, an MRE, backpackers food, maybe a diet of cheerios, ramen, and V8 Juice? I don’t know, throwing some examples) would be more beneficial than fresh food? If so, what would be the difference for dogs?

That said, I do feed kibble with canned, fresh, raw etc toppers, out of placement in my life right now, though I fully intend to move back towards a homemade diet at some point

[SkeptVet]

C4D,
The blogger I linked to is a veterinary infectious disease expert, and he discusses specific scientific evidence in the post I linked to, so this is not merely opinion but opinion informed by evidence and relevant expertise. The second link was not about raw diets because, as I tried to make clear in my post, I was not making a broad claim about raw diets but only responding to the specific comment that dogs were not susceptible to Salmonella infection or associated illness, a false claim that is often used to deny any potential risk to feeding raw meat. Again, I try to be specific and focused in these discussions since otherwise people waste energy arguing past one another.

The evidence is clear that infectious disease is a risk from any type of diet, that it is a greater risk from uncooked foods than cooked foods, and that it is a greater risk for people with potential immune system vulnerabilities (very young, very old, pregnant, ill, on immunosuppressive medications, etc.). This evidence needs to be considered when making choices about feeding raw. If evidence emerges that there are significant health benefits to doing so, then such risks may be worth taking and, as you suggest, it is appropriate to minimize them as best we can. If, however, there are no benefits to feeding raw compared with cooked homemade or commercial diets, then why take the risk at all? I’m still waiting for controlled studies looking at the relative merits of different feeding strategies because I don’t think the existing evidence is at all definitive.

Until that evidence is available, of course, we all need to make feeding decisions, and some may choose raw on the basis of the theoretical arguments or indirect evidence. That’s fine, and I’m not here to dissuade anybody.

What is problematic is when people make definitive claims that are supported by personal belief or anecdotes rather than real evidence. If you say your pets are healthy on a raw diet, that’s a perfectly fair observation. My pets are healthy on commercial diets, and neither experience says anything generalizable about raw vs. commercial foods. If, however, people claim raw must be healthier because of their personal experiences with it or because of the dubious theoretical arguments put forward for it, that’s not a legitimate claim. And if people claim all sorts of dire health problems caused by commercial diets, again those aren’t legitimate claims either without appropriate scientific evidence to support them.

[SkeptVet]

So if we are believers in raw diets, we should ignore most vets’ opinions on nutrition since they don’t know anything about it (and yet, somehow, we do know about nutrition even without any formal education, presumably because we’ve read some articles on the internet or some books on the subject). This includes ignoring the vast majority of board-certified veterinary nutritionists, who agree that there is no evidence supporting the claims for raw diets. They don’t know much about nutrition even though it is their specialty.(Oh, right, they are either deceived or lying because they are all pawns/shills for the pet food industry.) Yet, if a vet recommends raw then we should listen to them because obviously they do know about nutrition since they agree with us and so must be both well-informed and completely without bias or outside influences.

What this kind of discussion suggests is that the real issue is not how much vets know about nutrition but simply that we are looking only for sources of information that agree with what we already believe. The same applies to asking a “holistic vet” about vaccines. There is no reason to think such vets are better informed or know more about immunology than any others, but they must be a more reliable source of information because they agree with what you already believe.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but all opinions can be fairly and equally ignored if they don’t come with supporting evidence. And discussions about the evidence are more productive than discussions about opinions because they are less likely to degenerate into personalized and pointless debate. So far, there hasn’t been much discussion in this thread about specifics or evidence, mostly just opinion and “credentials.”

I tried to respond specifically and with evidence concerning the particular statements that “vets don’t know anything about nutrition” and that certain microorganisms in raw meat can’t be harmful to dogs. That shouldn’t be taken to mean anything more or less than what I said on those specific issues. For the record, I don’t know if raw diets have any health benefits compared with cooked fresh diets or commercial diets, and I don’t believe anyone else does either because there is no specific scientific evidence to answer that question. there are lots of theoretical arguments in both directions, and of course the usual persuasive yet utterly unreliable anecdotes, but not real data. I tend to suspect the ultimate answer will be that there is no benefit, but that’s just another opinion until there is real evidence.

[jakes mom]

C4C, I tried the cat food from know better a few months ago when I was trying to transition the brats to raw. Easy to do, good fast delivery. Of course the cats didn’t eat it but Jake enjoyed it very much, lol. Let me know if you try it, I might add it to Jake’s rotation. Right now he’s eating a bit of everything, NV kibble and frozen raw, a few other quality kibble brands, raw meaty bones. And as you know, he’ll be finishing up the Darwin’s cat food!

[Gracie’s Mom]

. . .but wouldn’t it be great to have a sort of calculator that allows you to input ingredients that you want to avoid, and it would then filter all the dog foods listed on the site, leaving only the foods that don’t include those ingredients? That would be so helpful to those of dealing with numerous food allergies and picky eaters.

I spend a great deal of time looking for foods to add into rotation that 1) my dog will eat (very picky!), 2) don’t cost a small fortune to feed a 65-pounder, 3) don’t contain one of her many allergens (white potato, rice, alfalfa, flax, peanut, soybean, rabbit. . .being just the more severe ones), and 4) provide a good nutritional balance (high in protein and not ridiculously high in fat with some fiber). I should also add that I’m a big believer in grain-free and minimal cooking/processing, but have a husband who is opposed to a home-cooked diet for our girl (that’s another story).

We started out with Darwin’s and that seemed to work great until she decided not to eat it anymore. I’ve since not had any luck with frozen raw. She just barks at it. Ziwipeak was good for a while, then she quit eating it. I’ve tried Arcana Duck and Bartlett Pear (the least successful in terms of willingness to eat it), and several freeze dried and dehydrated brands that don’t contain something on the allergy list. There don’t seem to be many options once the allergens are eliminated.

We’ve just started on Against the Grain canned, but there are only two proteins available, and she would need four cans a day, which would be expensive. I need something less expensive to add to it. Also, I have to offer variety, or she will refuse to eat anything in a few weeks. I’m going to try rotating in ZiwiPeak again. She has consistently liked K-9 Naturals freeze-dried, which I often mix with Honest Kitchen’s Preference Base Mix, but I’m concerned about the extremely high fat content in the K-9, and she has been a bit iffy on the Preference lately, sometimes refusing to eat it at all. The K-9 venison has somewhat lower fat, so I’m going to keep that in rotation. I’ve just ordered some small bags of Fresh Is Best freeze-dried to see how she likes that. She also likes Vital Essentials freeze dried, usually mixed with canned Tripett to provide some moisture. She does love tripe, but I know it doesn’t provide everything she needs nutritionally.

I worry not just about her allergies but also a diet too high in fat. She’s a three-year old lab mix and pretty active. She needs lots of protein and some fiber (judging from poop consistency).

I don’t currently have her on any supplements, having taken her off of them the last time she refused to eat her food (I’ve always put liquid or powdered supplements in her food, because she won’t eat treat-style supplements or pills). I need to identify any supplements that she may not be getting from her diet and try to find a way to get those in her.

It’s a difficult thing to manage. All advice is welcome. Mike–any chance for that ingredient eliminator program?

[Sarah L]

Hi there everyone,
Just wanted to drop a quick line as I searched with much frustration for months in regards to home made food as we have one schnauzer with seizures. The lack of information and conflicting information out there about home made diets is enough to make you bang your head against a wall …….. very frustrating !!!! We heard a lot about the raw diet, but I just could not bring myself to feed my dog raw meat, just my personal preference, but found a fantastic alternative to feeding raw. After much searching and many trials I was afraid we were not giving the girls enough nutrition and I was always concerned if they were getting enough of the nutrients they needed and a well balanced diet with cooking at home. We came across this company called U-Stew and we have not switched to anything else since. Basically you add this supplement to cooked protein and if you choose some veggies and voila !! It looks and smells like canned dog food …. our girls love it and we make it in big batches and freeze it in jam jars, very convienient. After the girls being on this diet for just a year we had all their blood work done to ensure they were getting all the nutrients required in their diets and they both passed with flying colors !!! …… Amazing !!! Here is the website we found the product https://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/U-Stew. Maybe not for anyone, but if I can help anyone with this tidbit of info, I am happy for that.

[Miss Koa]

Jonathan S: Yeah, that’s true about the eggs too. I guess I’m just a natural worry wart. haha. Ever since I had a kid, I’ve become more of a germaphobe and developed anxiety issues. In retrospect, I know my mom left meat on the kitchen counter for hours to defrost and we still lived. 😀
I have a jack russell terrier. I do my best not to show how anxious i am about it since I am not allowed to leave, apparently, when she eats. lol. I’m not sure how or why, but ever since we got her, when I feed her, I must stay with her or she won’t eat the raw chicken. If I leave her, she will carry it around and follow me or try to bury it. So since then, I have always sat in a chair and waited for her to eat. When I feed kibble, she doesn’t seem to mind too much if I go about doing chores. I used to feed the chicken in her crate, but then she would lie in the juices when she wanted to change position or whatever. That just made it worse for me, so I started feeding her outside. That worked better. She just stayed in one spot under the chair I was sitting in and she was happy, I was happy.
Thanks again for your input! I appreciate it.
It’s a learning process, that’s for sure. 🙂

[Dori]

Just wanted to take a second and agree with pitlove on her recommendation of Nature’s Logic. When I still had kibble along with our commercial raw diet rotation, Nature’s Logic was the only one I was able to use and was really happy with. One of my dogs has many food sensitivities, intolerances and allergies. The millet in Nature’s Logic never bothered her in the least.

I’ve never used Farmina as all of their dog foods either contain some form of poultry or potato which are no go’s for our dogs.

[aimee]

Hi Alison,

As pups are more susceptible to food borne pathogens, when feeding raw using a HPP product adds a layer of safety. A commercial product that has been through feeding trials is preferred as a nutrient error in a rapidly growing pup will be magnified and can result in disaster.

[samaroberoi4474]

The amount of food you give to your dog is also important, as it would help the dog maintain an ideal weight without compromising on its energy and nutritional needs in any way.
To feeding a raw food you have to give it in a Small amount with proper nutritional content in it
Check feeding tips for puppies for new dog owners

Puppy Feeding Tips for New Dog Owners

[Pitlove]

Jonathan– Yes! anything over 50lbs at mature weight would be large breed and I believe most Boxers will reach that weight if not a little more. Also even if the dog does not quite hit 50 lbs you can still feed them like a large breed and it will still aid in preventing skeletal disease.

Alison– You’re welcome! I know it is very stressful. I will feed raw at some point in my life, but I can’t yet for certain reasons. If you have the aid of a properly trained canine nutritionist to help you with recipes, it will be as easy as following them and from what I hear once people make the recipes enough it comes as second nature about what to add and how much.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Pitlove.

[InkedMarie]

My other dog is my allergy dog. No chicken for him. I ended up putting him on ground raw. Turns out some produce doesn’t work for him.

[Jonathan S]

I’m in the same boat… I have two border collie pups 34 and 36 pounds. Half their diet is raw food of my own creation, so the kibble goes a long way. I want to be able to feed them a variety to keep them interested and I think I’ve finally found the brand I want to switch to as they have lots of choices for flavor mixes (going with Orijen/Acana). I’ll probably stick with the 15ish pound bags so they can be rotated to different flavors on just about a monthly basis.

I was just curious about if there is a concern over freshness, what is the threshold for that concern. I think I’ll be fine if I keep rotating.

[jakes mom]

Sounds like you’re giving him a lot of different things all at once. All good for him but many of them are potential allergens. I would slow down a little. many people on here have dogs with chicken/fowl allergy so I’d stop the chicken for sure right now. I would also stop feeding Blue anything. You’ll see lots of complaints about that brand on this site. Put Blue in the search bar. You may need to go back to whatever he was eating when you got him if he was ok while eating that, even if it wasn’t a great quality. Start adding a new food, and only one, and wait a week or so, see how he reacts. Then add another food, see what happens. This way you can tell what’s bothering him. As far as the stool, start him on a probiotic. My dog can eat whatever is put in front of him but some dogs with a more sensitive stomach may need a little help with the transition. Some dogs have trouble especially going from, say, a 2 star food right to a 4 or 5 star. Go slow, you can work your way up to good kibble and raw. Good luck, hope this helped.

[Pamela S]

My one dog Quinn is 11 he has always eaten grass. Everyday my dogs get a different dog food, I believe in variety. Quinn just likes grass I get blood draws every year, his levels are always perfect. He doesn’t throw up from it, it always the tall grass. He also eats almost any vegetable I put before him.

I think as long as they are not throwing up they are fine. Just make sure it is not sprayed.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Hello Fellow DFA people,
I have been absent for a while due to major changes-the biggest being my adopting 3 more pups (toy schnauzers) which now brings my total to 6!!!
Crazy i know, but crew 2 as I call them Abe Murray & sister Marlie are all from the same litter.
They came to me underweight fleas and intestinal worms on May 30th. Now they are worm free weight great ( On commercial raw ,cooked meats and dehydrated THK) vet was so happy when she saw them-she wants to send me her hard cases-I politely said no.
But I have a huge problem -I am faced with fleas – i live in south louisiana -we are having one of the worst seasons ever. Crew 1 Pepper Millie & Sophie are my mini schnauzers Pepper is my blind angel who just turned 12 years young Millie turned 1 on july 4th and Sophie is 7 months-well I guess crew 2 brought them in and oh my they (the fleas) don’t want to leave.
I have always used a topical either frontline tritak or frontline plus ,but now it is totally ineffective.
I hesitate to give an internal pill for fleas ,since they MUST be on heartworm chewables ,since we are the heart worm capitol .
I have been seeing Nexgard but am so skeptical.
I started both crews on granulated garlic but know that can take time to work and I am very slowly dosing them, I use the mercola spray before we walk, bathed in old fashioned dawn, been washing everything like a fiend.
Friends I am at a loss, I am so afraid to spray a chemical on my yard so I use Diamacous Earth.
Any feedback, opinions on giving nexgard a try during the bad months and doing a topical in the other months? I fear for Pepper given her age & multiple health problems ingesting a chemical to kill fleas-Oh how I hate this.
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and reply.
Hope all of you are doing well and your fur-kids free of bugs and enjoying the summer

[Miss Koa]

Thank you C4D re: commercial mixes. I didn’t know that. I thought it was actual meat already mixed like sometimes you see those ones in a roll? I was thinking it was those. Thank you for clarifying. 🙂

Jonathan S – lol! Nah, you don’t sound like a jerk. It is what it is, and you are right. My pup’s eaten goose poop, cat poop, picked up (but not eaten, thank goodness!) dead mice etc. So yeah. I see your point. 🙂
Plus, so far, we are all still alive. Lol! I have been feeding her raw chicken in the evenings.

I guess I was overly concerned because I bake cookies as a side “business” of sorts, and of course I make sure everything is clean and sanitized….even before we started the raw diet… But was scared mostly about transference…like say, if my husband or child had played with the dog earlier, then came to the kitchen and their shirt rubbed onto the counter or something and I didn’t know…then started baking…etc. Just was wondering the risks. Maybe the risk is very low, but I just wanted opinions. I wouldn’t want to sell salmonella cookies! Lol!!!

Thank you again for taking the time to answer my question! 🙂

[Pitlove]

Hi Alison– First I want to say congrats on your Boxer pup. My aunt had one when I was growing up and he was such a great dog. Jonathan offered some good advice, but one thing I NEED to stress to you is the importance of being aware the large/giant breed dogs (like a boxer) have very special dietary requirements from 8 weeks of age to 8-10 months of age. They require proper calcium levels and a proper calcium to phosphorus ratio in order to support proper slow growth and help in preventing skeletal diseases that are common in large/giant breeds. If you are wanting to start your guy on raw which I highly recommend as large/giants have been known to live a lot longer on a raw diet, PLEASE make sure you consult with a nutritionist who KNOWS the actual dietary needs of a large/giant breed. Most should, especially if they are supportive of a raw diet.

Here is a testimony of a Newfoundland breeder who feeds a raw diet to his pups and his Sir’s and Dam’s. One of his newfie’s lived to the impressive age 17 years old!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=806j18u4S_g

[Jonathan S]

I’m not an expert, but I have been feeding my pups raw for a few months, so take this as you will. I think it will depend on if you’re planning to feed commercial raw, or make your own. The steps I would take (making my own) are…

1. Transition the pup to a quality kibble that you’re comfortable with and watch for any reactions to different protein sources.
2. Talk to your vet. If your vet is pro raw diet you will get good direction from them. If your vet is anti-raw, you will need to either seek another vet if you are committed to this, or stop talking about food to your vet.
3. Do research. There is a TON of good information out there. It can be daunting, and some of it will scare you, but do it anyway. Look on YouTube for Dr. Karen Becker. Lot’s of good info from her.
4. Don’t back down. People will try to tell you you’re doing the wrong thing. Don’t let them frighten you off.
5. Make a plan. In your research be sure to pay attention to the side effects of going raw and of changing food. Sometimes they can scare you and send you off to your vet or make you stop feeding raw, when really it’s just a natural adjustment reaction, or a reaction to the type of protein or amount of fat you’re using. Know what you can expect to see and be ready to react accordingly. Remember, when you stop feeding raw because of a stool problem or the such, it’s like you have to start over again.
6. Experiment. Begin adding raw into your pup’s diet and see how they react. Do they take the food well? Do they seem to like it? Start adding other ingredients and see how they react. Try to add the ingredients one at a time or you will have trouble figuring out which one, if any causes a problem.
7. Once you have a successful recipe, or more than one successful recipe, start replacing the kibble with the raw… go 25% raw to 75% kibble until the pup stabilizes, then go 50% raw to 50% kibble.
8. Watch your pup’s collar size, and keep tabs on their weight. You don’t want them too skinny or too fat. Hopefully you will have a pro-raw vet that can help guide you.

For myself I’m sticking to 50% raw 50% kibble just to make sure I don’t miss something important in their nutrition. My mix is pretty good, but a good quality kibble can be a nice safety net. I’m hoping to get to the point where I can do 75% raw and 25% kibble, but I want to refine my process more before I go there.

I hope this helps!

[Alison T]

Hello Everyone!!

My name is Alison. I’m getting a boxer puppy next week. The breeder has been feeding it purina. I want to start feeding raw as soon as possible. How do I make the transition?
Thanks so much for your help!
Alison

[Jonathan S]

I’ve been feeding my dogs raw for a few months now and the hardest part is finding the right protein. My dogs react badly to Bison, Venison, and Beef, do moderately well with chicken, but thrive on Lamb and Rabbit. It took a lot of experimenting to get it right, but I think I have the right mix now.

If you’re having trouble with stool, it could be the protein source, or it could be too much fat. I the stool is slimy and greasy, that’s a good indication of too much fat, or it could be IBS. Try backing off the yogurt a bit, maybe try substituting the chicken for turkey.

I feed my dogs half raw and half kibble. I read some advice somewhere that if you don’t know dog nutrition really well, but you want to do raw, keeping them on some high quality kibble is a good safety net in case you miss something.

Also, there’s a lot of advice that you should feed your raw and your kibble separately due to the rate they metabolize. I tried that and my dogs started vomiting their meals… I think the richness was too much for them. I went back to mixing the raw with the kibble and they’re right as rain.

Just don’t panic, and don’t give up. Keep researching, and keep trying. I find this process very rewarding and I feel it brings me closer to my dogs.

[Anonymous]

I am not familiar with the foods you mentioned, I would go with the prescription food recommended by the veterinarian that is treating your dog. I thought the article below made sense. Hope this helps.

http://dalmatianrescue.org/info/feeding.htm
By Beth White, Melody Kennels
We generically recommend for most Dalmatians foods with the protein source of chicken and turkey, with protein levels in the range of 20-24%. No one food is good for all dogs, but with this range it should cover most dogs. Rather than the protein level, the source of the protein is what is important. Chicken and turkey are the lowest in purines.

If a Dalmatian has urinary problems then it usually means that he can’t break down purines in his diet. Beef is highest in purines so we recommend the other protein sources. We also suggest that Dalmatians (again, most dogs) be fed scraps as a healthy addition to their “balanced” diet. It is interesting to note that all foods, from Walmart’s Old Roy to the most expensive foods on the market state “nutritionally complete” or “balanced”. Ever wonder why pet foods are considered balanced but human food isn’t?

Scraps help make the dog’s diet more complete. One of the worst things that has happened to modern pets is modern dog food….but that is another story. When we used to slop the hogs and slop the dogs, we didn’t have hip dysplasia or many of the other more modern structural problems. Our convenient dog foods are an improvement in many ways, but they are not complete or balanced. Scraps are also “tasty” and fun for the dog.

Veterinarians began recommending not feeding human food when the average pet was found to be too fat., Moving from the farm to the city and from work to retirement caused many pets to loose their shape. Feeding too many scraps isn’t good if it adds weight to dog, but there are just too many nutrients that go down the drain or in the trash that are helpful and useful to our pets. Modern dog foods are not always the best source of nutrients (from a source of diseased livestock possibly, etc.). The foods are also shipped long distances and sit on the shelf sometimes for months, are exposed to heat, etc. All this contributes to reduction in the quality and quantity of nutrients within the food fed to our pets.

There is a growing movement of feeding dogs raw diets, with great health results. For more information, search for Bones and Raw Food diet (BARF), or authors Billingshurst or Pitcairn, who have excellent books on the subject, on the web. Another great resource for dog owners is The Whole Dog Journal. Call 1-800-829-9165 for a trial copy.

Some dogs (Dalmatians included) can’t tolerate ethoxyquin. It is best to feed a food without this preservative. Dalmatians (all dogs even) should always be fed with water added to their food. It need not be soaked, but served like milk on a bowl of cereal. Ask yourself why we add milk to a bowl of grain. It is easier to eat that way. But, with a Dalmatian, there is the added benefit of the dog taking in a larger quantity of water than normal (in order to get to his food) and he flushes his kidneys twice a day. This is good for the kidneys.

All dogs should be fed twice a day. Fortunately, most people have gotten away from feeding only once a day. Livestock is fed twice a day and we eat three times. Once a day simply isn’t enough. We don’t recommend free feeding because it isn’t practical if water is added to the food. If not eaten immediately, it becomes soggy and then either spoils or is wasted. Besides, food exposed to the air loses more of its nutritional potency.

When a Dalmatian has urinary stones the old method, prior to modern commercial kidney diets, was to feed rice and vegetables (cooked with oil, bacon grease, salt, herbs of all sorts for flavor, etc.). Cottage cheese can also be added. Commercial kidney foods are fine, but they are usually not very palatable and often expensive.

Rice and vegetables are healthy and any Dalmatian can live on them and look great. Nothing gets fat on rice! When I prepared this diet for a dog that I once kept, I cooked the rice with various types of oils (Olive, safflower, corn, etc.) and threw in whatever herbs and seasonings I had on the shelf. I also added potatoes, green beans, and many other vegetables. The rice concoction was quite tasty and I usually sampled it too! A vitamin/mineral supplement was also added.

Dogs fed rice and vegetables usually hold their weight quite well. The owner, however, must remember to feed more than he would feed commercial dog food. The good thing is that most dogs actually love rice and vegetables, when herbs and spices and oils are added during cooking. Most of the time this method only requires cooking twice a week. Cook large batches and refrigerate what isn’t fed. Warm cold rice concoction and water in the microwave slowly. When traveling, obviously, it would be better to take commercial kidney foods.
For non-chronic stone formers, but dogs with gravel or sediment in need of veterinary treatment, it is always best to follow your veterinarians advice. But, once the urine has attained a normal pH, attempt to start the dog back onto a quality commercial food. Often a dog’s system has been corrected and by feeding low purines and lots of water, he can return to commercial foods. Make sure that the food is WELL WATERED.

[zcRiley]

Wild yeast naturally lives on potatoes, so I avoid all potatoes. It also feeds off of/thrives on oatmeal (in foods AND shampoos).

I transitioned for an entire year thru half of the 5 star listing to realize it was all the different fillers being used. Also, limited ingredient formulas may not have enough nutrition (my pups starved on it). I finally took out chicken, potato, tapioca, egg, and weird fruits/flowers. I chose peas as their only food “filler”. I skipped their dinner then switched the food cold turkey the next morning. Results were within days, not months. I do not agree anymore with these long drawn out transitioning periods, especially when their dog is suffering every second of every hour. It’s like you know the food is bad but you keep giving it to them, makes zero sense.

[Jonathan S]

Agreed! One thing to mention is that my pups are Border Collies, and they’re both under a year old, so their metabolism and tolerance are still being built up. Right now I’m feeding half raw diet (of my own making) and half kibble. I’m just looking to secure a high quality kibble that I’m comfortable with. At the moment my concerns are quality, integrity, and recipe. I spent a long time figuring out what the best/most stable protein source for my dogs are, so the kibble I go to needs to have a recipe that contains the protein source I’ve been moving toward… in this case, lamb.

In the near future I’ll be moving in a chicken direction, so that will bring up some other possibilities. I’m hoping to get them used to dynamic feeding so that I can keep their food varied and interesting for them without compromising on quality.

[Raquel M]

Hi. i got a new puppy. The sweetest thing ever. I want to give him a good dry food. A friend told me that Orijen is the best. What do you think?

He’s only 5k now and won’t grow up much, so I don’t mind to expend some money. What I don’t have is time, so the raw food is out of the question.

Any recommendations??

[zcRiley]

My pups lost weight on ZiwiPeak which is a raw dehydrated clean food of just different parts of the animal and vitamins. Took all the allergen guess work out and easy to digest. Other symptoms disappeared as well.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Linda-
Since the vet has your pup on the Hill’s u/d formula, im assuming they are oxalate stones. Is this correct? If yes, they cannot be dissolved and either need to be surgically removed or flushed out. I’m sure you prefer the second choice! Red is absolutely correct. You need to get as much moisture in his system as possible. Whether it be canned, homemade, raw, or dehydrated food. I would try to avoid kibble as much as possible and make sure to add water to it if you do feed it. Plenty of bathroom breaks are important too.
Sounds like you have your hands full. I wish you luck!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Linda G]

I spoke with a nutritionist and he recommended canine caviar chicken and pearl millet or blue Ridge raw chicken…thoughts?

[C4D]

Let me preface this comment with the fact that I feed a variety of foods, including some kibble, canned, fresh cooked and commercial raw food. I have had no problems with my dogs or my family, including infants in the home on a regular basis. If you are an immune compromised person, I would definitely suggest a home cooked diet with a premix raw (these are only vegetables and vitamins) added as opposed to raw meat. Salmonella, listeria, and other bacterias are in many raw foods, including the ones we cook on a daily basis for our families. They can be present on the counters and sinks of our very own kitchen surfaces unless you clean and disinfect correctly. The bacteria can be present in treats, chews and dry dog food as well. Listeria is within the soil and water.

I also foster dogs and have had my share of dogs with Giardia, ringworm, demodex (not know to be infectious) and hookworms and have managed to not have any other person, child or dog infested with any of these problems. I am very proactive in testing my own dogs to ensure that they have not become infested with the various parasites that enter my home with the fosters.

There seems to be a bit of hysteria in the traditional veterinarian community. My own vet does accept the raw feeding of dogs as well as many of the more natural products, including the balanceit program, while also carrying some of the “therapeutic diets” for those that choose that route.

The problem with salmonella, is that it can also be linked to dry dog food:

CDC link:
http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/dog-food-05-12/

CDC Salmonella General Info:

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/general/index.html

Skeptvet, in your regard to your links, the first one was someone’s blog, which of course, everyone has an opinion. I see this as the contrary to a holistic or natural feeder/vet’s blog.

The 2nd link, was a study of 442 salmonella isolates over a 58 year period. It doesn’t even state the point of the study! So what’s the point of this link in reference to a raw diet as there is no reference to a raw diet anywhere in the link? Yes, dogs can get salmonella, but they can also get cancer, arthritis, kidney disease and a host of other things.

The 3rd link was a study of 10 dogs being fed a homemade raw diet. Really? That’s not a very large study. Certainly not one that even the study could conclude was enough to draw any real conclusions, only a suggestion that infants and immune compromised people shouldn’t feed raw and perhaps a larger study should be done.
Did you also note that even though 80% (8 of the diets) of the raw diet tested positive for salmonella before fed, only 30% (3 dogs) of the dog’s had salmonella in their stool sample? An interesting note is that one of the 3 dogs that tested positive for salmonella was NOT fed a raw diet that had salmonella. So where did he get the salmonella from? And what did the other 6 dog’s digestive system do with the salmonella?

I do believe that if you feed raw, you have to be realistic and clean effectively and take precaution if there are small children in the household. If there are immune or cleanliness issues, then a balanced, fresh cooked diet would be the next best choice.

[jakes mom]

My understanding is that a dog’s GI tract is shorter and stomach acid is more acidic than human’s, this makes it safer for them to eat raw stuff without getting sick. My dog eats raw and loves raw meaty bones, has never been sick. Nor have I gotten sick by feeding it. Just wash hands and keep kitchen clean. Also, don’t forget that the government (FDA) has their nose into regulating pet food. Companies may have to issue “CYA” recalls even tho there’s really no danger to the dog.
That said, nothing’s right for all dogs and people. If you aren’t comfortable with the raw feeding, there are plenty of other options for you like cooking a homemade diet for your dog. Or just feeding a good quality canned food or kibble, altho those are prone to recalls, too. Nothing is 100% safe in life. You just do the best you can.

[jakes mom]

Thanks for the support, guys. I was really disappointed. The probiotics I tried were Perfect Form, the GNC Superfood complex for cats and NaturVet . They didn’t like the first 2, and I thought they smelled like a chic bouill. cube. The NaturVet is a soft treat style, smelled like a chic treat. I crumbled a couple over the food every meal, of course they wouldn’t just eat one!
Luckily they aren’t picky about their canned, will eat whatever brand or flavor. I just stick to the pate, mostly. Partly because of the gravy ingred. and partly because they usually just lick off the gravy and leave the bits!
Jake is a lucky boy! He gets some raw now, frozen or dehydrated, he’ll eat everything! And a couple of the cats did eat some Darwin’s when I cooked it, but not twice in a row, geez! Brats! So that’s the plan, use up what I have on Jake, and cook some once in a while for the cats. I’m just glad I can use it up and not waste all that $$. Expensive experiment!
Nice to hear all of your seniors are still doing well. We try so hard to make them happy, don’t we!

[pugmomsandy]

The pugs eating kibble here get 2/3 to a rounded 1 cup per day. Occasionally, a young whipper snapper will get 1.5 cups per day. And most days there is some canned topper. The raw fed pugs get 6-7 oz per day. The pugs range from 15-27 lbs (I think. Haven’t weighed the big one in a while).

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[Skye G]

I don’t have much experience in feeding raw, but I personally will not feed my dog raw chicken due to concerns over salmonella. I always cook it. JMO.

[Shawna]

Stephanie W,

Digestibility of protein is important but bioavailability is even more important. The better the cells of the body use the amino acids in the digested protein, the less BUN is created from the protein. Raw and lightly cooked home prepared foods are going to have better bioavailability than canned and canned will be better than kibbled diets.

Most vets recommend “low” protein diets for dogs in any stage (and sometimes even before) of kidney disease. This is actually a myth and why most prescription foods are not really appropriate for the earlier stages of the disease. What may need to be controlled however is phosphorus so not all foods of good digestibility and bioavailability will be appropriate for all stages of chronic kidney disease. Here’s a VERY reliable source on the low protein myth.
“Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function
Kenneth C. Bovée, DVM, MMedSc, Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Results of the 10 experimental studies on dogs have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure.” http://www.dogaware.com/files/bovee.pdf

If you are willing to feed raw look at a prescription diet created by vet Dr. Barbara Royal sold by Darwins. Dr. Meg Smart has a homemade kidney diet on her blog. I also like the Wysong diet Red mentions. Just make sure the food you chose has the appropriate amount of phosphorus for the stage of disease your specific dog is in. Unlike protein, phosphorus CAN cause further damage to the kidneys.

Lots of prayers and good luck being sent your way!!!

[InkedMarie]

Hi Delilah,
A wet food is best (canned, raw, dehydrated). For your dogs other issues, a grain and potato free food may be best. I have a yeasty dog & he didn’t get better until I put him on raw (we use ground) with no produce at all.

[CockalierMom]

Yes, raw chicken is correct. I have made chicken jerky for my girls several times in a dehydrator and the oven. The most important thing is that you make sure you slice the chicken as thin and uniform as possible (a little on the frozen side helps). If the pieces are not the same thickness, the dehydrating time varies too much. You will have some that get over crisp while other parts may not be dehydrated enough. My girls prefer chewy rather than crispy. In the dehydrator I use plain chicken breast with no added oil or seasonings. In the oven, I coat the pieces with a little oil.

[Pitlove]

Hi- Take a look at Wysong Epigen 90. It is a chicken based food, however it is completely starch free and is suppose to be excellent for dogs who might have a food intolerance. It seems like you have tried mainly fish based foods. If that is not working he might not be able to tolerate fish. You definitely need to try another protein in his diet. If he does not have a chicken allergy I would highly suggest the Wysong Epigen. The food is made by a vet but it is not a prescription, however he does make presciption dehyrated raw food.

They also have a vension forumla that contains “potato protein”. I will also let you know now that one of the ingredients is meat protein isolate. It is nothing to be concerned about and the meat is pork as stated on Dr. Wysong’s website.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Pitlove.

[crazy4cats]

Hi JM-
Sorry the raw didn’t work out. I’m so impressed with your effort. I gave up after only one or two tries with Nature’s Variety Raw Bites. You must be doing something right considering the age of your old folks home you have going. Lol!

My senior kitty is or will be 16 any day now. She has her ups and downs, but is doing great right now. Happy, happy, joy joy! I do think her eyesight is going a bit though.
In addition to the grocery store stuff, my cats are now eating Dave’s, Halo’s, Nutro Max duck chunks in sauce and Iams canned foods. I gave up on Authority after recipe change. I’m feeding very little kibble and my urinary problem cat is well too.

Good update guys. I wish Akari was still around also. 😿

[jakes mom]

OK guys, time for a raw update. Long story short, I’ve failed. Still only have one cat who will eat it at all. I’ve tried 3 different probiotics. They refuse to eat anything with 2 of the brands mixed in. The third brand has helped with Dustin’s sloppy poos, at least. I’ve tried raw and cooked a bit. I’ve re-read all the tips on raw sites. Watched videos by Dr. Becker about transitioning cats, very interesting if you haven’t seen them. She says cats have addictive personalities, very hard to make changes. Some cats take a year!
I just think my guys, all being geriatric, are too set in their ways. If they were younger I would persevere and keep at it. I’m concerned about them not eating well as they try to avoid any bites of canned that may have a bit of raw mixed in. I’ve weighed them and they’ve all lost a few ounces and that’s not acceptable to me. They’ve made it to ages 15-20 so I guess I won’t rock the boat. Jake will be a happy boy. I will use up the raw I have from this shipment, about 20#, geez! on him, and the one cat who likes it. Dang, really wanted this to work!

[Shawna]

It’s taken me almost 45 minutes to get logged in but I was determined. Had to create a new account but then it seems to have reverted back to my old so….?

Center for Companion Animal Health, UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine
Vol. 8, No. 2, Fall 2003
“A number of bacterial organisms commonly associated with diarrhea in dogs and cats include Salmonella, Campylobacter, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium difficile.

Veterinarians are faced with a quandary when attempting to diagnose dogs and cats with suspected bacterial-associated diarrhea, because these organisms commonly represent a normal part of the host’s intestinal microflora.” http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/newsletter_2003_fall.pdf

They’re already in there people. I’m surprised the vets among us aren’t aware of this information?

There are many many vets that recommend a raw, or at least a home prepared, diet. I could name 30 or so off the top of my head that could easily be verified online. But I’ll start with just one – not only is she a vet but she is a veterinary nutritionist and taught veterinary small animal nutrition for over 30 years. Dr. Meg Smart states in an interview on the AngryVet website “I see a benefit in feeding whole foods whether cooked or raw.” http://www.angryvet.com/angryvet-nutrition-interview-drs-joseph-wakshlag-and-meg-smart/ She also discusses and defends raw on her blog.

Dr. Elizabeth Hodkins co-wrote the book “Not Fit for a Dog” with Dr. Smart and one other. Dr. Hodkins used to work for Science Diet. In fact her LinkedIn page says this about her “She taught veterinary parasitology at UC Davis following her residency before leaving academia to join Hills Pet Nutrition for almost a decade.” She taught parasitology and yet she still recommends a raw food diet — INTERESTING… Hmmmm She talks about raw on her website catnutrition.org

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Shawna.

[Cheryl N]

I’ve found several recipes for home made chicken jerky. All but one say to use RAW Chicken and dehydrate it. I just want to be sure that the RAW chicken is correct.