[jen.mcco]

I have a 5 yr old male Boxer– about two-two and a half years ago we began having issues with him– at first it was vomiting once in a while- then went to vomiting everything he ate– We ran blood test-did xrays-barium series-ultrasound-tried meds- almost did surgery however after ultrasound we figured out no obstruction so no need- All the sudden he was fine again-this continued off and on for another year before blood work finally came back with HIGH lipase and amylase pointing us towards pancreatitis. Switched from Rotation diets that he had been on his whole life to LOW fat food- Even on low fat food issues continued repeated bloodwork/xrays/ultrasounds and so on over the last two years- ONLY thing out of normal was Pancreas enzymes and they have come back HIGH every time- during these episodes he seems painful in abdomen/refuses to eat/some times will vomit–during this time we tried to keep him on ONE food only and stop rotation diet–but with refusal to eat we switched to other low fat foods- when switching he was very interested in his food and would eat for a bit and then stop again unless food was switched– We at that time thought He is used to rotation diets lets try it and see what happens– Found low fat diets/raw to rotate and episodes would come and go (usually lasting 1-2 days) Each episode we re-ran bloodwork- NO episode required hospitalization- Finally something else showed up on bloodwork– His platelet count was dropping– ran again it dropped more (still HIGH lipase and amylase) At that time we ran Accuplex 4 for Tick Borne disease. Came back Positive for anaplasmosis *he has always been on prevention but obv something didn’t work* HE showed NO other signs than the above stated– At that time we put him on a 30 day round of doxycycline—after that round of meds re-ran bloodwork and for first time in since this started and his amylase and lipase was HIGH IT all came back NORMAL!! Including Platelet count– Since then we have decide to take him off Low fat diets and see IF Pancreas issues rise again– We have NOT had any noticeable issues other than the fact at times he will refuse to eat– Seems normal other wise– We cont. to rotate diets and when we start a “new” one in the rotation he is very interested and eats but after a few days he is back to not being all the interested in it again— We have used many diets in the rotation with NO other issues with both our boxers (other has NO issue eating anything you give her) We have used Nature’s Variety Prairie and Instinct– Wellness Core= Natural Balance LID–Grandma’s Lucy’s Freeze Dried Raw–Natural Balance Raw Rolls=and rotated between different proteins- from Chicken/Beef/Lamb/Duck/Buffalo/Salmon… DOES anyone have any ideas of WHY he is doing this and seems uninterested after a couple days— HE even does it with RAW===We are thinking the pancreas issues was due to tick borne disease but at this time are only testing that and aren’t positive since it is NOT a known affect of it–however anything is possible– I am lost on this– have done everything medically that I know to do- Spent TONS of money testing and retesting and buying different foods- NOTHING seems to matter– This is a almost 6 yr old male INTACT boxer=-he was trained in Schutzhund so was always fit and trim but has since been pulled from field due to health years ago and I can NOT get weight on him for anything- He goes from 50-60 lbs at most times– I ONCE got him up to 68-70 lbs but that never last long– SORRY so long but want to give us much information as possible. Anyone ever dealt with something like this– Any ideas?

[Melissaandcrew]

Just wanted to update this. Have been grinding raw components since Oct and MOSt do well with it. However, I do have two 14 yr olds and a 16 yr old who do NOT do well with raw-They lost a bunch of weight which was quickly regained once they went back on dry. No way would they eat the volume in raw to keep weight on. Lesson confirmed-raw does NOT work for all dogs.

Secondly, Hubby helped me grind my chicken pieces the other night-it will be at least a week for it to be shipped to the company, have gears replaced and get it back. Thankfully its under warranty and the company I bought the Tassan from does not void the warranty for grinding chicken bones in the Tassan.

On the bright side, Hubby thought the food making was taking way too much time away from other things we need to do, so he just ordered a new one. After watching some videos of the Wesson’s grinding, he ordered the Wesson 32 since it said it was good for large volumes. His thought is we can process en masse once a month or every other and save a bunch of time!

I still recc the Tassan for those grinding a small amount, or those looking to try a grinder out before committing to an expensive purchase. I figure with this one I can grind whole turkeys without worrying about damage.

[theBCnut]

/dog-food-reviews/grandma-lucys-pureformance/
/dog-food-reviews/stella-chewys-raw-freeze-dried/

I would assume it is because Mike decided not very long ago how he was going to categorize freeze dried and dehyrated foods, so he hasn’t got to all of them to add tags for the dry list, since they aren’t really like a regular dry food. You should go down to the bottom of the page and shoot him an email about it. He likes to be informed about the things like that that we find so he can fix them.

[Shasta220]

Ah, sounds like cats are quite the problem causes LOL! Usually we buy small enough packs of meat that they don’t need to be frozen, she eats them before they go bad (if I ever add organs, then they usually get frozen since one package lasts a looooong time for Ms. Picky Britches). Millie is our raw eater, refusing ANY commercial foods, then her younger brother, Panda, loves his dry (it’s hilarious – he’s always been on the dirt cheap dry food and /only/ liked his Cat Chow. We finally switched to Chicken Soup, and it took him a few days to adjust. We still keep cat chow around as treats for the ducks/chickens, and when we left a scoop of it out, Panda was there munching away on the food! The little dork prefers the cheap taste over quality lol). Then Maddy is the least picky, she doesn’t like raw, but that’s fine since she eats canned daily.

Well, I will just have to keep playing around with proportions for the goofy kitty.

Does anyone know how to post pictures? I’d love to show her to you guys, she is a very very unique kitty. Cream/chocolate tortoiseshell and has a perfectly split face (half white, half brown). Big blue eyes, white feet.

[theBCnut]

What I know and what I can get my cats to eat are 2 totally different things. 🙂 They just don’t really want to go along with raw feeding. At least I’ve been able to get 2 of them on canned food. My oldest is dry all the way, she won’t even smell canned or raw foods. The 2 younger ones will eat about 1/2 oz of raw, then they’ll just walk away. I can’t begin to tell you how much raw cat food my dogs have had to eat for me. Gideon has a “clean up the mess” command.

[teslarocks]

I have been feeding my dachshund Nature’s Logic canned food (various protein sources) exclusively for past 6 months and she doing well on it. However I just noticed on label that is “intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding only”. Hopefully I have not hurt her. I want to stay on a canned diet only as she has trouble chewing kibble and I don’t want to go raw. Are all canned foods like this or does anyone know what cans I can try that are a “full meal”?

Thanks

[Melissaandcrew]

Salmonoids carry a parasite that cause salmon poisoning..tnis includes trout. Porgy is sold by Pawfectly raw for dogs. I just don’t know if its edible for dogs guts and all. Its an atlantic oceean fish I believe.

[Shasta220]

Honestly, I wouldn’t get too concerned. Just keep an eye on him, and if he acts weird then go ahead and take him in. I never give my dogs sugar, but I honestly don’t think a couple tablespoons would /kill/ a dog, as they make TONS of dog treats w sugar (it really annoys me – why the heck do they make strawberry and peanut butter flavored dog treats, complete w a sugary cream filling that smells good enough for me to eat? Dogs seriously have different tastes than people, ugh.) and I know many dogs who eat them daily and are still alive.

I’ll be perfectly honest though, I really don’t know what sugar does that’s hazardous to their health (other than the horrid breath lol).

[Shasta220]

I don’t know too much about fish, but whenever we go fishing, we cook the whole fish in tin foil and give our dogs the remainders. Usually we gut the fish and throw the remainders away, but I’m sure if you cooked it then it’d be fine.

I honestly would never feed my dogs raw fish, as my lab has come within a few hours of death from eating a raw fish, and my dad once had a Dalmatian that died from eating a live fish.

Sorry for adding a question – but can anyone explain to me how/when/why raw fish can kill dogs, and if it’s ever safe to give a raw fish to a dog? The vet explained it when we took our dog in, but that was almost 10yrs ago, so I honestly can’t remember a thing he said.

[losul]

Hi Dori, I’m doing a little better, thnx, and Turbo’s O.K.

My agony peaked when the hard realization came that it was my fault, I already pretty much knew it, but I think it helped to finally get it out. It’s been a little more uphill now.

The fleas, i don’t know what to say. You’re situation with the fleas/insects in the area, and having several dogs is different than mine. Shawna and the others could suggest some alternatives vs. using chemicals, if you can or want to go that route. I don’t really know what I would do for sure in your situation.

I don’t use anything on turbo at all, haven’t had any problem with them here. I didn’t intend to use anything on him at all, but he’s already got insecticide on, or in him, now from the advantage, and I hate it that fact. I can’t really see keeping him on this very long because of that. I always figured if fleas become a problem here, I would only deal with them then, but not before. I know we have/had chiggers in the yard, several years ago, I had a bout with them, itching badly for several weeks. Never had a problem though on Turbo knock on wood. We have alot of ticks here, but again i don’t use anything on Turbo except some body checks, and I wasn’t always diligent about it. I only found I think 2 crawling ticks on Turbo this past season, until that last embedded one him that somehow survived through several bouts with hard frosts and cold weather, and I didn’t find until after it had been feeding for several days. I found more ticks than that on myself, seriously. Maybe some of them were crawling off Turbo and on to me. I hate it that he got worms, and now I hate that i have to give him all these harsh chemicals to try to make them go away. I think Turbo is young and healthy enough to come through it, but I still worry about damages and longer term consequences.

X-rays are set up for next week, and I agree, they will definitely be worth having done.

Hang in there with Katie, i think your determination will get it all figured out!

[Shasta220]

Sandy, I doubt she’d eat tripe. We don’t have access to it anywhere to see, but if she’s refused all other organs we offered, I doubt she’d eat it.

I’ve not tried giving her feeder animals…I honestly doubt we’d buy live animals for her, I’m far too squeamish. Occasionally when she goes outside and catches a bird/mouse, she’ll eat most of it, but usually not.

I knew about taurine and how important it is…I’d look into buying a supplement of it, but gosh she is so dang picky, I just don’t know if she’d accept it. Where is taurine naturally sourced from? Is it an animal-product?

I’ve thought about commercial raw, but we don’t have access to it here, and I sincerely doubt she’d eat it, as she detects any extra stuff we grind in her meat (egg yolks, supplements, etc.)

Gosh I feel so bad for her though! Her pickiness is keeping her from being the healthiest she can be… -_-

[pugmomsandy]

Dried chicken is dehydrated chicken meat (like jerky). Chicken is unprocessed raw chicken with moisture content (like ordinary raw grocery store chicken). Chicken meal is processed chicken that has been heated and cooked down into a powdered meal. Then when added to make kibble it is cooked again. This one is the most processed of the three.

For me, in a kibble, ideally I would chose chicken and dried chicken. Second choice would be chicken and chicken meal. Next choice is chicken meal as chicken by itself loses much of it’s weight after cooking so you end up with not much chicken after it is cooked down. There is a few good foods without meals like Now Fresh. Halo is ok too but it has alot of plant matter in it. And if you chose a food with just chicken, then you can always add a high protein topper to the kibble whether that’s canned food or fresh food like eggs and meat or sardines.

It just really depends on what level of animal protein you prefer to feed your dog. I feed varying ranges.

[Jackie B]

Cats, especially males, need plenty of wet food. As people have already stated. If I was able to have a cat, I would seek out a brand like WildKitty where you can make your own raw at home. I feel like it is the optimum food for cats. That being said, if you want to do kibble and supplement with canned, any can is better than none. But a canned food without red-flag ingredients (same standard as for dogs) would be my pick.

A friend of mine who fosters many cats and kittens says Authority is her budget-friendly but still quality canned food choice.

Also, you can get a pet watering fountain. Cats love them. I have a CatMate brand one for my dog.

[Bobby dog]

Hi, congrats and he is gorgeous! As far as how much to feed your kitty, if you are going to feed wet and dry food I would suggest you check out the feeding guide on the dry food you are feeding him. For example, Wellness has a guide on their bag suggesting how much to feed your cats if you are feeding only dry or a combo of wet and dry according to your cat’s weight. When you decide on an amount just observe your cat’s body condition and adjust your food amounts accordingly.
I have had cats ever since I can remember and still have lots to learn. I have two 15 yrs, one 14 yrs, one 11 yrs, and one 6 yrs, all stray cats. I wish I never fed them wheat, corn, soy, fish, or dry food. I lost two that were 15 years old about four years ago to illnesses that bad nutrition surely contributed to; digestion problems, obesity, and the male had urinary tract issues throughout his life. I have one cat that was diagnosed about five years ago with a hyperthyroid; he requires daily meds now. I have slowly changed their diets over the past five months, but at their ages change is difficult so they still need their fish and dry food fixes. Most importantly I have weaned them off of Friskies. I might not ever be able to completely ween them off of fish or dry food. If I paid more attention to their diets I truly believe I would not have had the vet bills I had over the years. About four years ago an emergency room visit in the middle of the night for my male cat’s urinary tract infection cost me about $2,000 to get him well.
My advice is to feed them the best wet diet that fits your budget. Avoid soy, wheat, corn, and fish. Stick to poultry, lamb, rabbit or beef if possible. If you are going to feed dry find a good quality GF dry.
I am with Crazy4cats, my go to website is catinfo.org. My other favorite is the naturalcatcareblog.com. They have a great list of dry and dehydrated foods and the reason they recommend them. I feed wet three times a day (totalling about 3-5 oz./cat) and give them a small scoop of dry once a day. I am on a very tight budget as well so I only buy food that I either have coupons for, on sale, or on the 50% off shelf. I feed Natures Variety raw (when they e-mail coupons), 4Health from Tractor Supply, Merrick, Wellness, Tiki Cat, Weruva, Soulistic (chic only, K3 is in the other varieties), Blue Buffalo, and Evo. I am always trying new canned foods using the information I learned about food from catinfo as a guide. I also feed them boiled chicken two or three days a week as one of their meals to help keep costs down. For dry I have been feeding Wellness GF Turkey & Duck meal (bought with the $5 coupon from their site of course) because there is no fish meal in the recipe. I just bought a bag of Merrick GF chic on sale which they seem to like.
Sorry for the long post, maybe something I have written will be helpful for you. Good luck, he’s one lucky kitty!

[Mom2Cavs]

Yes, definitely wet food is better than dry. I do feed my cat dry and wet. I believe I’ve posted before that she gets wet (canned food, and sometimes premade raw) in the morning and evening and dry is left out all the time (I replenish it if she doesn’t finish it in a timely manner). She likes to eat this way. She loves nibbling the dry food in between breakfast and dinner. She also drinks plenty of water. So, if you can give wet along with any dry all the better. 🙂

[Molzy]

He is gorgeous!! Congrats!

Wet food is SO important for male cats! Luckily they are a lot smaller than dogs – I can feed my 10lb cat a commercial raw diet for less than a dollar a day. His coat is gorgeous, and it keeps urinary tract infections at bay! Ralph is on natures variety raw chicken. But even canned food is better than dry (Ralph only gets dry if I leave overnight without a pet sitter).

I could do natures variety even cheaper, but the medallions are SO convenient!

[Cyndi]

From what I know, you definitely need to get “taurine” in her. I believe that’s what it is that cat’s can suffer a deficiency from. There are quite a few reviews I’ve read on Hare Today, where I get my raw meat for my dog, from people who feed their cats a raw diet. They sell mice, and baby chicks and whole sardines and stuff. You might want to look into that…

Good luck! 🙂

*Edit* & Hare Today does sell a Taurine supplement.

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=291

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Cyndi.

[Dori]

Have you tried feeding her a commercial raw for cats? There are a few out there. She might like that. I don’t have cats but I thought I’d put that suggestion out there for you. My sisters and brothers have cats. I’m the only dog person in the family now. I’m allergic to cats, also to dogs which is why I have “hypoallergenic dogs” Maltese, Maltipoo, Yorkipoo.

[Dori]

I, too, use much lower doses than suggested on the different supplements. My girls are all toys, and I feel that they don’t need the dosing recommendations of the jars. I also don’t add them to every meal (they eat twice a day). Depends on what I’m feeding them on any given day. I don’t use a protein booster because they are all on a raw diet and their diets are all pretty high in protein to begin with.

[pugmomsandy]

I haven’t had any issues with raw since the beginning which was more than two years ago. You can use raw or cooked meat with the premixes. I’ve made over 100 lbs of ground raw in one sitting before but clean up well right after. I make sure to thaw my frozen packages in a container in case it drips blood and then transfer the food into the container when it’s thawed enough to come out of its package. It’s just like thawing out a package of ground beef for yourself.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by pugmomsandy.

[pugmomsandy]

I started with chicken wings when I first introduced raw. Then chicken legs and turkey necks. Chicken necks are very small. My dogs are 22 to 27 lbs.

[pfeiner]

Thanks for your feedback. Like moist, I have spent a lifetime (57 yrs :)) being told to stay away from bones and pets. Knowing that cooking bones is a problem as they will splinter, raw bones are OK?? I read that they are but I am still afraid. I see see poultry necks at the market and think, the pups would love them, but I am afraid of causing health issues.

[pfeiner]

Thanks for your feedback. Like your suggestion of changing the pre mixes up for variety. In reading about home prepared raw diets, I see allot about salmonella etc. I know about safe handling of foods but they wind up getting cooked. What about raw?

[Shasta220]

I’m sorry, but I will go through the sob story of Millie. We rescued her as a 5wk kitten. I thought she was old enough to start cat food, but Dad insisted on dropper feeding her for a few days. I have no clue if that had anything to do with it, but she refused cat food when we offered it to her about a week later.

We tried dry, canned, organic, flaked, pouched. She sniffed it and backed up as if it was rotten. We got desperate enough to try “starving” her, offering NOTHING but cat food. She went a week without any food, and still had zero desire for cat food, even after force feeding it to her.

Eventually she got to eating kitchen meat scraps, hot dogs, and cheese (I’m repulsed too, but I simply knew /nothing/ about feline nutrition back then. It’s in the past now and can’t be changed – so please don’t chew me out, I’ve scolded myself enough for letting my parents feed that to her LOL!)…

A couple years ago we took her to the vet for urinary issues. They gave her some meds and she cleared right up, but it’s back now.

Her current diet is *shameful face* raw chicken legs. I wish we could some how get some supplements into her diet, but I’ve tried adding a basic supplemental powder (I added about 1/4 of a day’s worth into some ground meat), and she immediately detected it and refused.

I’m just wondering what the most basic raw diet is out there that I can get away with. I can’t try ANYTHING that’s commercial, as she’s turned her nose up at it ALL, I promise. She likes muscle meat/fat from almost every protein source, and she eats almost the whole leg bone of the chicken, so I’m not at all worried about her calcium. I’ve offered her heart/gizzard/liver, and she refused. Occasionally when I grind her meat, I can sneak about 10% liver/heart into it, but that’s it. I tried adding an egg, but she doesn’t like them (occasionally she’ll eat them cooked).

So, what /will/ she eat? She, obviously, likes her muscle meat/fat/bone, and she likes cheese/milk (no yogurt), peanut butter, and coconut oil.

I’m just wondering if anyone else has a cat as miserably picky as her, and how they manage to get at least SOME of the required nutrients into the diet….because I’m sick and tired of cleaning her messes (I thought her walking into the litterbox and forgetting to turn around was just her personality, but after doing some research, I found that “missing” is a further sign of urinary problems).

Please don’t tell me “just take her to the vet” because we have. They’ve done all they can do – it’s all up to her and what she will/won’t put in her mouth.

Sorry for being so long-winded, and sorry if it was confusing at all…but I’m a bit confused myself. Why can’t she be like the other cats and just eat some balanced canned/dry food? I don’t know -_-

[Monika30]

Has anyone used this food? K9 Natural Freeze Dried Dog Food. I found their website (http://www.k9natural.com/), read about it and it sounds great but would like an opinions?
This is description including ingredients. I have two Siberian Huskies I would like to feed with this (currently on Ziwipeak which is great but really expensive, especially here in Australia)
K9 Natural Freeze Dried Dog Food Lamb 3.6kg

FLAVOUR: Lamb Supreme
PACK SIZE: Net weight 3.6kg Makes 14.2kg of ready-to-serve raw food when reconstituted with warm water.

INGREDIENTS: Lamb meat, lamb blood, lamb blone, lamb green tripe, lamb liver, broccoli, cauliflower, carrot, spinach (chard), cabbage, apples, pears, lamb hearts, lamb kidneys, eggs, green lipped mussel.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
(Freeze Dried values)

Minimum Crude Protein 28.0%
Minimum Crude Fat 35.9%
Maximum Crude Fiber 5.0%
Maximum Moisture 10.0%

[Dori]

I feed commercial raw as well as home cooked raw. I feed both Primal Pronto Beef, and Lamb. They make other proteins but one of my girls has allergies to all things poultry so those are the two I stick to. I also feed Darwins. Darwins is less expensive and also less in fat content. I have three toy dogs. One is a 14 1/2 year old Maltese, 4 1/2 year old Maltipoo and 4 year old Yorkipoo. I have to admit that they are all chow hounds and have never met a meal they don’t inhale and certainly haven’t turned down. They have done equally as well with Primal as they have with Darwin’s. I feed a rotational diet so both Darwins and Primal as well as other commercial raws are in my freezer. Primal Prontos are geared to be able to scoop and serve. It is raw but little bits (somewhat like the size of kibble) and defrosts very quickly on the kitchen counter in their bowls which is really very convenient when I’ve forgotten to take some other raw from the freezer. Doesn’t happen often but it does happen.

[GizmoMom]

For those who feed raw, would you trust packaged frozen quails from a Chinese market? The package does say it’s a product of USA, but doesn’t provide any other details (how they are raised, etc).

[pugmomsandy]

I’m sure Darwin’s is a great product and several people here use it. But with 2 large dogs you might check into feeding prey model for some meals such as feeding a whole chicken (including the feet and gizzards, liver and neck). Not every single meal is required to be complete and balanced. 20% or less can be unbalanced. There is a large raw forum at dogforums dot com and it has a very big “raw feeding pictures thread”. Also check out preymodelraw dot com. I also use a recipe book, “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” which is easy to follow and comes with a recipe to make a vitamin mix. You’d save a lot of money by buying bulk or family packs of ground beef or chicken and even bone-in pork chops. And they go on sale when it’s their sell-by dates. I also find whole raw sardines at the ethnic grocery store for $1.19/lb on sale. This is one meal for my dog and he only needs one sardine which is around 3 oz. the sardines come in various sizes. Another option is buying your own meat and using a premix.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Sorry Sharon! I just saw this post. The online database is http://www.alacalc.co.uk/ I signed up for the 3 free recipes to test it. So far I’ve been able to add HDMs Whole Food Supplement and her Veggie/Fruit mix as a recipe then as an ingredient to one of her suggested recipes Beef/Turkey. I also recently found data on raw, bone-in items so I could add turkey necks etc (http://dogaware.com/health/kidneytable.html). After that I can download a spreadsheet which gives the calculations of about 50 different nutrients. I’m seriously considering purchasing for 15 recipes. It costs $50 but I will feel so much better about doing my own ‘recipes’ if I can make sure everything is well-balanced. (Will post on this on FB, too)

[Dori]

You are in a truly unique and enviable situation. Under those circumstances I would do exactly what you do. Unfortunately I’ve not been able to find a holistic vet here that I’m comfortable with. The holistic vet here in my area that has the best reputation prescribes cooking the dogs diet so obviously since it goes against what I have learned on this site about a raw diet and have seen the results with my own eyes, she’s not for me or my dogs. Traditional vet, of course, advises year round heart worm preventative. In the Northeast it was recommended for Summer not Winter. I’m afraid that mind set stayed with me. Living in the humid South I should have been preventing year round. You are lucky to have all those resources around you and your wealth of knowledge. Honestly, you’re like a walking talking encyclopedia. Love it!

[pfeiner]

A friend just mentioned Darwin’s Raw diet. I have been successfully feeding Primal for a while now however Darwin’s is significantly less expensive and with two Lab’s. costs add up quickly. Anyone have any feedback re:- Darwin etc.
Thanks loads!

[Melissaandcrew]

Crud.. I pulled three ticks off of ME this past summer and two off of dogs in the fall. One dog then tested anioplasmosis positive…and the other anio neg but weak lyme positive. My part of NY is crawling with them Certain times of year the damn things will fall on you out of trees .This spring we are going to treat for them as its getting out of control for the humans.

[Mom2Cavs]

I agree with you, but my old vet didn’t look into things and wanted me to keep my Mix Breed on the Royal Canin SO for life when she had a uti with struvite crystals. Well, it said right on the bag that is was supplemental and not to be used for a long period of time! Let’s just say that anitbiotics killed the uti and the struvites went away. She has been on RC SO since then and that was years ago. Anyway, my vet now, a holistic vet practice, knows quite a bit about canine nutrition. He even does podcasts on onevetmed (or something like that lol). Very knowledgeable. Like I said before, he believes in raw feeding and carries Nature’s Variety, all forms, and Steve’s Real Food in his clinic and that is what he feeds his Goldens.

[Hamlin38]

Hi Dr. Mike,

I haven’t seen a rating on Sojourner Farms, or Sojo’s.

That’s been my dog’s diet for over a year. I like it. Well, and they do to.

I prefer it over the other freeze dried raw foods because the protein/fat content is lower than say Stella & Chewey’s or Primal. Not that I haven’t heard or seen great things with dogs who’s diets consists of the latter, the price/volume ratio is greater than what I can afford.

There is a downside to Sojo’s I have to admit. After rehydration, the Guaranteed Analysis for Protein/Fat is greatly reduced. So much so I have to add my own because I have big! active and young dogs.

And it’s reported to me that the stool is greater -which I’d expect from Dry Dog Food -which I refuse to serve. Bad for the teeth, bad for the digestive tract, bad for the adrenal system -the biological filter intended to remove undigestible material like ash -which any dry dog food is chocked full of.

Quick aside: I don’t know how many people come to me and say, but what about their teeth? The crunchy’s clean their teeth. Dr. Mike, you know in your profession, Captain Crunch doesn’t do well for dental health. Nor does any carb -and that’s what it takes to bind the ingredients to make a kibble.

NO DRY FOOD! EVER!

[weezerweeks]

I,ve been cooking chicken,quinoa,peas,and carrots sometimes for my dog. I add natures logic all food fortifier in it. This probable is not a complete diet for him so I don’t do it very often even though the fortifier seems like a complete diet. He loves cooked chicken so my question is if I order see spot live longer dinner mixes and add it to the chicken what else would I need to add for it to be complete. I want to start cooking for him but I can not do raw.I think I’m going to order the book by dr. Becker. Any easy ideas for complete dinner with chicken or beef would be appreciated.

[myfriend]

I have just in the few day last began to read raw food for dogs on facebook on forums and books, I have a male dog that has severe allergies….. I am attempting to get all if not most of his processed foods buying his food from a butcher… my vitamix has actually ground chicken and bone up… but he did eat a raw chicken leg and the ground up chicken no problem… today was the first day of this but I am hoping he will never eat processed dog food again

Good Luck

[Shawna]

I just posted this to HDM on the regular site but thought you might not see it..

“The doxy makes the worms sterile so resistance shouldn’t be an issue with any worms picked up from the doxy treated dog. One of the benefits of giving doxy is that it makes the dog no longer infective to other dogs.

From heartwormsociety.org “Microfilariae from dogs treated with doxycycline that were ingested by mosquitoes developed into third-stage larvae that appeared to be normal in appearance and motility, but these larvae were not able to develop into adult worms, thus reducing the risk of selecting for resistant sub-populations.” http://www.heartwormsociety.or…

I see advantages to the fast kill as well as slow kill methods. I personally would use the slow kill with SP Canine Cardiac Support and herbs mentioned in Dr. Goldsteins book for heartworm treatment plus. But I understand Losul’s desire to get the worms out as soon as possible too… And Turbo seems to be a good candidate for the fast kill method when doxy and heatguard (or another form) are used first to lessen the risks of immiticide treatment.

I’d give raw eggs to keep glutathione levels up. Cardiac support by giving an organ supplement or giving organic heart. I like Standard Process because it has anti-inflammatory factors that work specific to the organ being used for as well as “food” for the specific organ. Anti-inflamatories like turmeric. I personally would give small amounts of garlic and use probiotics regularly. etc etc etc Chlorella is an excellent detoxer.

Edit — been a HORRIBLY busy at work last few days.. I’ve missed much of what has been discussed :(..”

Another thing to consider is that although nobody wants to get that diagnosis, it is really not as bad as some try to make it. You caught it early. Even before symptoms appeared. He has every chance of doing well no matter which way you go. After re-reading your post I do see where your vet is recommending doxy and heartworm before the immiticide. That makes me feel more comfortable with his recommendation!!! 🙂

Here’s a link that may not provide new info but hopefully will take a little of the scare out of the diagnosis.. This is naturopathic vet Dr. Jeannie Thomason’s site http://www.thewholedog.org/heartworm.html

PS — I found several folks that had dogs with a minor infection like Turbo’s. One said her dog was free of heartworm nine months after starting the slow kill method. Some of the results you are hearing from could be from immune compromised dogs as well. Turbo is way ahead of the pack in that regards. That is also why I would be less freaked about the fast kill method for him!!! You’re a good puppy parent and Turbo has every chance of having no complications because of it.

I’ve always read to use ivermectin when doing slow kill. I’d do more research before choosing slow kill and anything but ivermectin. A quick google search says this about moxidectin “Ivermectin is the medication most commonly used to kill the microfilaria (larval stage.) There are other medications that will kill them (such as milbemycin) but ivermectin kills more slowly. When too many microfilaria die at once, it can cause shock and collapse for the dog. Thus, ivermectin is preferred because of the slower kill rate. Other products like selamectin and moxidectin do not kill the microfilaria efficiently enough to clear them reliably. Fortunately, ivermectin is available in several monthly heartworm preventive medications. Examples are Heartgard ®, Tri-Heart® and others.” http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/a/CW-HeartwormTreatments.htm

Of course, one comment on vetmedicine site is not enough to base something like this on but do research more before deciding. I’ll try to check it out too.

Did you ask him his reasoning for recommending the rabies vacc at this time? Is it that he is not aware of the problems, disagrees that problems could arise, thinks they are overstated or what? Does your state allow exemptions? Why not put it off?

Here’s data from several people that have actually USED the slow kill method and cleared heartworm. And likely these are dogs that are nowhere near as healthy as Turbo however I don’t know that. Just a guess. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?365271-Slow-Kill-Heartworm-treatment

It’s also the method that most rescue use around here. And again I would try to get Dave’s Hounds input. BUT, when it really comes down to it you will do what you think is best for Turbo and EVERYONE here that is truly your friend will support your decision because we all know that you are the one that has to live with that decision not us… We all will support you no matter what your choice. And as stated before, I think Turbo is a good candidate for the immiticide option as he is young, healthy and has the right person in his corner!!!!!!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.

[pugmomsandy]

My dogs like raw beef ribs (or Merrick Ranger Ribs) and cow hooves, tracheas, and Merrick GI Bones.

[hamptonmeadow]

-Pig ears, bully sticks are sourced from China. I would never touch them. The same with cat fish skins. hdm suggestion of traecheas and chicken RAW bones etc are as usual good advice.

Never parboil bones, cooked bones splinter. I would not feed marrow bones because some dogs get their mouths stuck in the center. But the marrow is awesome.

Vets are really no nutritionists and don’t know a lot about much beside what they sell.
But, you can listen to the knowledgeable people here. You can also make treats if you don’t use sugar and use seseme seeds, chia seeds and fruits and green leafy veggies and cruiciferous veggies (pureed).

[aimee]

Hi losul,

First I’m so sorry for what you and your dog are going through. I myself have nightmares that I get that dreaded call in which I’m told my dog has heartworms. I know that giving less of the pill and less frequently than recommended is likely playing heavily on your mind. In actuality we don’t know what role that played as sometimes dogs on full prevention protocols come up positive too.

I’m sure this is scarey. I’ll try an answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Do you need a second opinion? If you want to look further, have a different type of test done vs a different vet who may be using the same brand test. There can be false positives on a heartworm test, but they are rare.

The fact that they saw microfilaria kinda clinches the diagnosis. There are other microfilaria that can be seen in blood, Dipetalonema comes to mind and a parasitologist can likely identify them for you. The sample may need to be sent to a university vet school. But really the chance you have both a false positive and a different type of microfilaria seems unlikely …I think you would be grasping at straws …

Should you consider slow kill? I’ll give you my opinion for what it is worth, I wouldn’t. I can’t put my hand on it at this moment. Will look for it if you want but as I remember in dogs treated with slow kill considerable ongoing lung damage occurred UNLESS the dogs were on complete exercise restriction for the entire duration. Your dog is young, I’m guessing active, and would be difficult to keep continually crated for nearly a year plus(?) of his life. There also is some speculation that slow kill may be contributing to resistance. Unless your dog is clear of microfilaria during a slow kill treatment ( meaning your dog has microfilaria because of your dosing and not strain) your dog will be infecting others with a resistant strain and spreading resistance.

Should you use moxidectin? So far as I know of only one study that compared efficacy head to head and moxidectin was more effective when given as a single dose. Time will tell if that holds: one study one strain. The moxidectin treated dogs didn’t develop heartworm with only one dose post exposure whereas dogs given 1 dose ivermectin or milbemycin did develop worms. Dogs given 3 monthly doses of milbemycin post exposure were also clear. As I recall this test was done with a strain thought to have resistance.

Moxidectin is also the drug in Pro Heart injections. Is a continuous yet decreasing amount of moxidectin as effective as monthly peak doses? I don’t have any answers for you, I think though it has failed whereas the monthly topical has not due to higher blood concentrations with monthly pulse doses.

I’ve noted on Trifexis (milbemycin) commercials it states to give for 3 months post exposure whereas Sentinal Spectum (milbemycin) has upped that to 6 monthly doses post exposure. For now my dogs get milbemycin, same day each month year round. If I lived in heartworm land… southern states where resistance is being seen I’d choose moxidectin. Likely if my vet was saying moxidectin topical I’d go with it trusting that he/she understands the local strains. I don’t mess around with heartworm prevention.

The preventatives I can think of are ivermectin ( heartgard and others), selamectin( Revolution) milbemycin( sentinal, trifexis,) moxidectin( advantage multi, proheart) diethylcarbamazine (daily still available???)

Should you vaccinate? This is beyond my ability to answer. I think your vet is the best person to answer this one.

Trembling/ fearful…. two things come to mind: pain and fear unrelated to pain. Fears can be to unusual scents, sounds (electrical equipment, ultrasonic, rodents etc ) Pain… any lip licking swallowing drooling that might help you pinpoint it?
.
Again I’m so sorry you are going through this…your vet is the best one to help you through this. The American Heartworm Society guidelines are written as they are for a reason…. If it was me I’d make use of them: 3 injections and doxy. Best of luck

[losul]

I just discovered Tuesday evening that our dog Turbo has heartworm infection. It came as a huge shock, as i thought I was being meticulous with his care and his diet. Almost as bad, I am probably to blame for it, and I am sickened and upset by this. I was using
Heartguard+ chewables. I was trying to minimize his toxin exposure, so I didn’t give year round, just for the approximately 7 months mosquito season, and every 35 days instead of 30. Also, because Turbo is 34 pounds and I had the box for 26-50lbs, I was only giving him 2/3 of the chew. Lastly I was keeping the HG in the refrigerator, and now I found out that HG isn’t supposed to be refrigerated and they can’t guarantee the efficacy when refrigerated. I just called them and reported the case to them, telling them all the truth about the situation.

I don’t want to write our life story, sorry about the lengthy post, I’m just trying to get all the info out, so I can hopefully get some good advice to help me make the best decisions. Turbo is approximately 32 months old, 34 pounds, a boston terrier mix, we think maybe mixed with staffordshire or pit, but almost certainly mixed with some kind of bully type. We adopted him from our County’s Animal control about 1.5 years ago. He spent somewhere around 1/2 of the first 14 months of his life in 2 different sessions at the County shelter, and evidently 1 session at a City shelter. It was the first dog we have had in about 7 years, after having had many previously, for most of my life. We were out of the loop on most things dog, so I got very studied up on it, wanting to do things as right as possible, before we even started looking for another dog. I knew the type ( boston terrier or mix) I wanted and knew that I would put him on a raw diet before we even got him, and so be it, within 3 or 4 weeks we had him on about a 60% raw, 40% commercial diet, with no problems ever, except some gas for awhile.

Turbo is very handsome, charming, and playful, but can be rude, stubborn, very assertive, sometimes defiant. We love him the way he is, he’s always been a joy, and no real problems at all, except some assertion/agression (not fearful aggression) towards certain dogs, usually only the largest dogs or bully types. He’s completely different (quirks) than any other dog we’ve ever had, but for us, he’s really a perfect fit, and is always well behaved in the house.

We’ve been in search of a great dog Vet since we got Turbo. Tuesday’s visit was the 4th different vet. I had set up an appointment ahead of time for his upcoming rabies shot, and to test the waters with a new (and hopefully permanent) vet. In the meantime Turbo had a really strange and scary issue that happened Saturday evening and lasting into Sunday. An hour or so after he had his Saturday evening meal, and totally not typical, he began “hiding” in a corner of the house, or he would go to either the basement door or the back door. We take him through the basement into the garage when we go in the car. He goes out the back door into our yard. He also started very visibly trembling, looking very sheepish, and scared. He would not take a treat at all, so totally untypical of him. Once outside, he did not want to come back in at all, wanting to lay on a chair on the deck instead, even though it was quite cold and he doesn’t like cold for long. We’d make him come back in only to do the same again. Sitting in the corner at the end of the hall or at the basement door or the back door. He acted like he just wanted to be out of the house and maybe even away from us, seemed afraid of me for no reason, and the trembling hard, very scary. So not typical, Turbo has NEVER been fearful of anything that I know of, but he just did NOT want to be in the house at all. I eventually took him for a short car ride, and he seemed to have perked up some. So we got back into the house just a little bit reluctantly. He then took a treat fairly eagerly, but after taking a second one, he suddenly just dropped it and ran away to the corner again. The trembling and strange behavior again too. We nearly took him to the emergency clinic. It later subsided though, and eventually he went to bed right beside me, where I watched him the rest of the night. He seemed to sleep well. Next day, just a little more of the same scary stuff, and then he ate his typical raw morning meal. Soon after eating he started acting better throughout the day (Sunday). He never vomited nor had diarrhea nor showed any obvious pain through the whole ordeal.

Baffled, I spent most of Sunday researching the trembling symptoms. Nothing seemed really to fit at all, but I was concerned about problems like kidney/liver. I contemplated all sorts of things such as Lyme or tickborne illness ( he had a tick on his ear that I didn’t catch right away, it was November and we had already had several hard freezes. The tick left a pea sized nodule that lasted about two months. Friday evening he chewed on a cow hoove awhile until I took it away from him, because he had broken off a rather large sharp shard. Saturday morning he had his typical raw meal, but his evening meal was not quite as typical. Usually he gets 2/3 cup kibble matched with 1/3 of a can food, or 3/4 cup kibble and an egg, or sardines. This time I gave him less than 1/2 cup kibble + about 4 ounces of canned salmon + 1 egg cooked in coco oil, and i added about 1/2 t of nutritional yeast. i think I’ve added a very small amount of yeast to his raw mix before, but not completely sure. So thoughts of a bad reaction to the yeast also came into play, along with thoughts of too much fat at once. Even the thought of a ghost in the house came up.

Monday morning I called the vets office an\d told them I thought we needed to put the rabies shot on hold, and instead get him checked and do some blood work to get to the bottom of this. Tues evening: I explained everything to the techs and the vet as best I could, even that I home prepped over 1/2 of his diet. He asked me what I was feeding him and I told him him briefly, just didn’t come out and say”raw”, but I think he knew it. He didn’t ask if raw and seemed satisfied with what I was feeding and supplementing. This
vet spent alot of time with us, well over an hour, didn’t admonish for anything, wasn’t arrogant in the least, didn’t “push” anything , and so far I think I like him O.K. He examined Turbo and was pleased with his apparent health. So he didn’t push any lab work at all. I still elected to go with an outside lab wellness blood work, along with an in house tick borne illness and heartworm check.

I was floored when they came back and said he was both pos on the antigen and microfiliae HW tests. He was negative on the tickborne. He explained the clinic’s HW protocol; 1) monthly HW preventative for 2 months prior to treatment, and continuing throughout treatment and beyond. 2)Doxycycline. for 2 weeks prior to treatment.3) first immiticide treatment (injection); dexamethasone injection, tramadol injection. Hospital overnight, strict confinement until returning for next treatment.4) doxycycline again for 2 weeks prior to immiticide treatment. 5) 2nd immiticide treatment. ( 2 injections 24 hours apart), dexamethasone and tramadol injections given daily with each treatment. Hospitalized for 3 days and 2 nights. strict confinement at home 30 days 6) Heartworm check 6 months afdter last immiticide injection to confirm elimination of heartworms.

He also explained the clinic’s preferred HW preventative – Advantage multi – a topical application, (imidacloprid for fleas which Turbo does not have + moxidectin, the HW preventative, which is supposedly absorbed through the skin). I didn’t even realize they had a topical for HW. I told him I would rather not use an insecticide for fleas that he didn’t need. He said alternatives (such as heartguard) could be used but may not be as effective, in his opinion. I then mentioned that I recalled hearing about a “slow kill” method. He seemed a little stunned, and said that that method was actually more dangerous, wasn’t as reliable and it could take much longer if it even worked. I again expressed my concern about all the toxins, especially the arsenic/immiticide.

He didn’t think the trembling episode was HW related at all, although he didn’t offer any real explanation for it. Also he thought it would be fine for him to go ahead and get the rabies vaccination, or I could wait for the outside lab’s bloodwork results in a day or 2. I told him we would definitely wait.
—–

Here’s where I need advice;

Do you think I should get another HW test from another vet along with a second opinion?

Should I consider a slow kill method vs the clinic’s protocol?

Should I use heartguard or another ivermection based HWP vs the advantage multi, moxidectin based? Is their any other moxidectin based without other insecticides included? Is there another one more effective than the others? Are there any other HWP’s using some different drug altogether?

Should I continue to put on hold the rabies vaccination? if I put off more than a few more days, then he will be past due again, will probably only be able to get the 1 yr vs the 3 yr, and would have to be re-vaccinated again in a year.

Does anyone have anyone input about what could cause the trembling episode?

Any other opinions/advice?

———–

Update: The vet called with the bloodwork results. Everything looked “perfectly normal” he especially stressed the liver and kidney values, the blood cell and platelet counts and values, thyroid, and some other things I don’t recall now, I don’t have a copy yet. What a big relief on that much. I had some more questions to ask, such as should he have X-rays, ultrasound, etc. He could, but didn’t think neccesary nor did he advise it. I asked about the microfilariae count, he said a fair amount? Somewhere I had read about the 3 classes of HW infections. I asked what “class” his condition would be, he replied definitely class 1, which I saw described somewhere (going by memory)as asymptomatic to mild, no radiologic signs, nor signs of anemia. He still encouraged going ahead with the rabies vacination, and strongly urged getting started on the advantage multi soon. But he seemed much more amenable now to a slow kill method, maybe along with doxycycline, before I even asked again, even seemed to kind of go along with it, though he still didn’t recomend it, he still recomended their protocol. He also expressed concern that these worms may be resistant to ivermectin, and it could take a very long time to kill them using it. So he again really encouraged using their Advantage multi. I guess this multi is a new thing.

——-

Any advice/opinions would be very much appreciated, as I’m feeling lost and very worried over this. I think my questions still remain the same after getting the blood work results.

[pugmomsandy]

Fairly regularly I use Springtime Inc. Longevity, Fresh Factors, Bug Off Garlic (or Flea Free Supplement liquid), and I got some free bottles of their Advanced Hip and Joint and Joint Health Chewables at checkout. springtimeinc.com

And a couple times a week, I give Mercola krill oil and ubiquinol, Swanson’s Dr. Langer’s probiotics or Mercola probiotics, Mercola digestive enzymes, Immunel (swanson), and a glandular product (currently Pet G.O.) http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go.html and ProDen Plaque Off, vit E and C, and Mercola Bladder Support.

When I make dehydrated foods, I like to add in some raw apple cider vinegar.

I’ve just started to add some sprouted seeds to their raw food. 4 Legs of Love from SproutPeople.org. http://sproutpeople.org/just-for-pets/sprouts-for-dogs/

[tecknik]

Point blank- Dinovite does not work. My dog eats a raw diet, very expensive and avoids wheat and grains. About a year ago, she started scratching all the time. Benadryl is what my vet recommended but that is a band-aid to the situation. So, we decided to try this product. I went through almost the entire box and no help whatsoever with the scratching. They offer a money back guarantee. I paid $10 to ship it back. They refunded me the $ but deducted their original shipping costs to me so overall this useless product cost me $16.

[Akari_32]

After trying all kinds of products to help Bentleys skin with these seasonal allergies, we were at the grocery store and saw this stuff on the clearance rack. The poor guy is always bright red and itchy and getting new welts every day, so we are really grasping at straws trying to do what we can with these allergies that can’t helped with food. I bathed him last night with it, and today he looks great. His skin looks much better, and he’s not itching so much (hardly at all, actually). Not to mention his fur is really soft :p Is it ok to use this on a regular basis? Here’s the back of the box:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/F6F17D8E-1326-44FF-8A3A-B2EA6B5DD9A1_zpsy2ahxzof.jpg

I figure it’s just like the Beyers dog stuff we’ve been using on him. It’s not a soap really, it’s lipids and moisturizers. But the Beyers doesn’t do much for him, while this has helped loads after just one bath. What do you guys think?

[pmsuperstar84]

Half my cats are on Rx diets and looking to change to raw once my IBD kitty is weaned off his meds (Can’t everyone eat the same thing? Oh right, no. That would be too easy! 🙂 ). I will also vouch for World’s Best litter. My vet had us changed after clay litter caused urinary tract issues in one of my cats.

[SpanielMom]

In my experience, you can feed the harder bones (femurs, narrow bones, etc) once or twice a week. But you can add softer bones like chicken backs more often. I will warn you though, please supervise your dog with the harder bones, one of my larger dogs who is too enthusiastic about bones broke a canine tooth on one. She is only allowed softer bones now. But the rest of my dogs do great with raw bones.

Two of my four dogs got sick when I introduced them to raw bones for the first time (I had never fed them raw before that) and the others adjusted just fine. I would pick up a few chicken/turkey necks and try giving your dog one of those first, or chop it up and give the dog a few pieces, they are small and that way the dog can get used to the raw a little bit at a time. Or give a raw bone for just a few minutes at a time. Hopefully this helps.

[Iride4tnt]

for the purpose of teeth cleaning, how often should you feed raw bones to a large dog? would you need to start with a small piece and work up to avoid digestive issues?

[Naturella]

Fatcakes,

Hope we helped! I second everything Shasta said, from the pumpkin addition, to testing for food allergies, to the raw egg – Bruno will be getting one/week starting next Thursday! Also, I swear by coconut oil (make sure it is UNREFINED too though – extra virgin, cold-pressed, UNREFINED – it is the REAL deal) – miracle worker. 🙂 But the food you got sounds great, hope your boy likes it! And yay for fish, just hope he’s not allergic to it or something. Orijen is a great brand from what I read though! 🙂

I rotate Bruno’s food once his mix ends, which is about every 4 months or so. And I go through a few flavors/proteins of the same brand before I switch brands. Now he has enough food to last throughout March for sure, maybe even April. Next batch is Earthborn Holistic GF Coastal Catch (fish) mixed with Vets Choice HHE Original (chicken mostly, but other meals in there. Some grains too. Meh, I got it for free and it is 4-stars, so I’m good with it.), then Earthborn Holistic GF Great Plains Feast (bison and some lamb) mixed with Vets Choice HHE Lamb and Rice (I know. Rice. Not grain free. Oh well. There’s lamb in it too.), and then Earthborn Holistic GF Primitive Natural (chicken) mixed with Vets Choice HHE GF (chicken). THEN I have Victor Ultra Professional GF mixed with Back to Basics lined up, and then the Victor Yukon Salmon GF mixed with probably Back to Basics again. THEN I want to try Wellness Core. I think I have Bruno’s meal plan set for like 2 years to come, lol.

As for THK Beams – if you have any local boutiques that sell all-natural dehydrated chews (which is what the fish skins are), see if they have them in bulk – my closest pet boutique store sells them in a jar by the skin, and the big ones are just $1, and I can cut them in like 8 Bruno-sized skins! Bruno is a Jack Russel – (miniature?) Rat Terrier mix, @ around 1 year. I will claim April 1st as his Birthday. We are not 100% sure, he was found in some bushes… But was changing puppy teeth throughout August-September of last year… Any guesses on approximate Birthday? Anyone?

[Shasta220]

And with the fish – I know many people give their dogs oily fish 1-3x per week. I think it’s usually sardines.

About anything good and oily is good though. Sardine, salmon, krill, algae, coconut, and my dogs get flax oil as well (although they don’t absorb it as well as with fish oils). Just be a little careful not to go too overboard, as it could produce a greasy coat after a while. I know someone who gives her 50lb dogs 4 capsules of fish oil daily AND 2-4tbsp olive oil. They’re in tip-top shape and don’t stink, but leave a bit of a film after you pet them a while.

I, personally, also swear by raw eggs. My lab, who’s suffered a dull drab coat and awful skin conditions all her life, gets a whole raw egg daily. She is looking much much better.

[Shasta220]

I’d agree with crazy4cats, I think you should try to find a super quality nutrient-dense kibble, then add their favorite meat (cooked or raw, however they like it). Try canned foods, or make your own broth by boiling chicken bones (or just adding some water to any of the juices after cooking the meat). It will add moisture and flavor to the food, two pluses for picky pups.

That’s good that you took away treats. It might help them realize “Oh… This weird stuff in my bowl is actually food? I think I should eat it!” My boy used to be a picky picky eater, he’d go without food for up to 3 days, simply because he didn’t like the brand/flavor. I would quit giving him his daily biscuits, and he’d go back to eating. He wasn’t overweight at all either – as it sounds like your dogs are on the thin side as well.