[crazy4cats]

What breed is your pup? How big will it get?

Feeding a large breed puppy the correct amount of calcium is of the utmost importance while they are growing. You only get one shot at those growing bones and joints, it has to be right! They are very prone to hip dysplasia and elbow issues if not fed correctly.

For either small or large breed puppy, I would definitely get in touch with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist to help you formulate a raw food. There are some that will work with you.

Rodney Habib does not have the credentials to formulate a complete and balanced diet. Especially, for a large breed puppy.

[Whiskey D]

Hi,

New dog owner and raw feeder. I followed rodney habib’s guide (youtube – https://youtu.be/7P85BMCCboI) on how to make a balanced meal, but I fear our dog is not getting enough calcium because he has started to occasionally limp. This might be from a calcium deficiency.

He said not to put egg shells for puppies in the mix. My question is, I can not find raw meaty bones in my super markets (except for chicken drumsticks). How much calcium powder should I add to the diet so he has his calcium intake.

The puppy is 3 months old currently.

[Jaimie K]

Patricia A – I was very confused too. I was a veterinary technician for many years but the vet I was seeing for this issue didn’t know that. I questioned the antibiotic when the results were negative and they kind of blew me off with a generic answer. I do have a better vet now, but we haven’t started tackling the GI issues since for the moment we’re ok.

I’m inclined to agree it was the kibble causing the issues. However the original incident came a day after she ate garlicky pizza crust, pasta, hot dogs, salami, and who knows what other human food, plus tons of dog treats, bones/chews, and a raw dog food she had never had before – all while staying with my dad and step-mom while I was out of town. I wondered if that bad weekend didn’t cause some pancreatitis.

She has been on the prescription diet (Hills i/d) for at least 4 months and we have not had any other issues. I’m not a fan of the prescription diets AT ALL, and don’t want her on it long term, but have resigned to leave her on this diet for 6 months as a “reset”. I have tried to wean her off a few times with no luck. I will definitely look into the Stella & Chewy’s – I’ve heard all positive things.

[anonymous]

I used to get horrible headaches (migraines)

They are in remission for over 2 years. I think there is a connection with diet. If you can find the right doctor he will support your dietary decisions.

We will have to agree to disagree about the raw diet for dogs though. 🙂

[D]

To me, it sounds like the raw food diet was a total disaster for your dogs and I don’t blame you for not wanting to going back. However, my results have been the complete opposite. Anal glands did not need to be expressed, no more need for allergy medication for the itching and no more topical sprays for his hot spots after transitioning to raw food.

Some breeds may have a better time handling the diet than others.

Anyway, I think we can both agree we won’t be changing either of our minds. Our journey’s just happened to take us on a different path.

[anonymous]

I tried raw food for my dogs as recommended by an online homeopathic vet.

Within a month or two we were at the emergency vet with GI upset/rule out blockage. More than one visit.

All kinds of sludge noted via x-ray in the colon. Also vet visits for broken teeth due to “raw meaty bones”.

Not for me

PS: I had an expensive meat grinder (went to the Goodwill) chicken, bones , supplements”

• This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by anonymous.

[D]

Do you mind me asking what kind of raw food did you give them?
My puppy (akita inu) eats raw food that my pet store provides.

If you have a second check below:

Home

My favorite and his favorite is the turkey, salmon, lamb mix.

[anonymous]

My sympathies. I was tested for celiac as well, it was ruled out.
Gave up sugar, processed foods, I am vegetarian for the most part, no dairy, no red meat. Occasional fish.
Pescatarian, except I use homemade chicken broth to make soup.
I feel much better.
Of course, everyone is different. Bread has ever been an issue.

My dogs love chicken, fish, meat based kibble plus I give them boiled chopped chicken meat or boiled egg as a topper to the kibble and always add a little water.

PS: I tried raw for my dogs back when and it resulted in emergency vet room visits

No thanks!

[D]

That does not mean you shouldn’t do your own educated research.
Go ahead and ask your vet a simple request to go over all of the ingredients they put into your dog kibble and have them explain to you each and every ingredient and its purpose and benefits. Since they are so much wiser than you it shouldn’t be a difficult request to ask. You must love the Yellow 6, Yellow 5, Red 40, Blue 2, genetically modified organisms, pesticides and all the other artificial flavorings and preservatives they add into it. It’s not like dog food has ever been recalled before…Nor have vets ever been wrong on anything before…

Up here in Alaska our sled dogs don’t seem to mind eating raw, something of which they have been down for hundred plus years. And our family and friends pets all seem to live a long healthy life.
It wasn’t until the early 1950’s that dogs started to eat kibble. I wonder what they were eating before that?? Back then you would hardly ever hear of a dog having cancer, seizures, allergies, or the multitude of skin problems you see today.

There is a plethora of great articles and books out there regarding the history of dogs and their diets, especially feeding raw.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by D.

[anonymous]

“There seems to be no vet near me that supports raw feeding, I’ve emailed them and they all say it’s nutritionally imbalanced and I should not be doing it. How do I convince them otherwise?”

You can’t, they are much wiser than you and more importantly they are veterinary healthcare professionals that have examined thousands of dogs and have seen a lot.

In case you or anyone else would like to educate themselves on this matter http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw

[D]

Commercial or Homemade- I do a bit of both. There are a few pet stores that offer a rewards program. For instance, if you buy ‘X’ amount of frozen dinners you get one free. I find going raw is not all that expensive. Also, remember you will save money in the long run from not needing to go to the Vet from issues concerning dry kibble. Such as allergy meds, reactions, cancer, etc…
Ordering food tends to be more costly, you may be better off going to a local butcher or a local grocery store and find meat there, i have a great success finding offal in grocery stores, very inexpensive too. Make sure you wash any meat you buy from the grocery store thoroughly and freeze meat no less than 3 days in order to kill any bacteria that may have contaminated the meat.
Make sure you clean up after your dog eats. I will brush my dogs teeth after eating if i plan on letting him lick me or my guests to ensure no spreading of bacteria. (Vet’s Best Dog Toothbrush and Enzymatic Toothpaste Set | Teeth Cleaning and Fresh Breath Kit with Dental Care Guide| Vet Formulated is a great toothbrush and toothpaste) I’ve been feeding my puppy raw for a year now and noticed tremendous results. I will never revert to kibble again.
My vet strongly advised me not to go raw and at the same time tried to push Royal Canon on me. The same dog food that nearly killed my last dog.
One of my friends is a vet and she told me that they do not spend much time in school learning about raw. And whatever they did cover was all negative. I have yet to hear of a dog or puppy getting seriously ill from going raw.
I wouldn’t try to convince your vet otherwise, save your breathe. Just keep doing research and you will be fine and learn so much!
There are great website out there that give you a great breakdown on meat, fat, bone, and offal percentages you should be feeding your dog.

i wish you the best of luck!
P.s. I’ve worked in feed kitchens before and seen what goes into dog kibble, its quite alarming.

[Emma L]

Hi everyone!

New to the forum here. After scouring the site for hours, I still am at a loss at where to start with picking a new dog food.

I have one VERY picky dog. Changes his tastes at the tip of a hat. He’s healthy, nothing wrong according to the vet (I did start there as he used to gobble his food and I had to use a slow feeder bowl)

When I first got him from the shelter, he was on raw nuggets because he was severely underweight and needed a lot of protein. Once he got to a healthy weight, I switched him over to Fromm. My two dogs were on that for a very long time (GF formula) and the only reason I stopped buying it was because it was incredibly hard to get in my area. I switched over to Acana for a few years, and then not only did he completely detest the stuff after a while, they had the lawsuit. I’m a worrier, and I didn’t want my dogs anywhere near the stuff if there’s was even a small chance of an issue.

We went to Stella and Chewys Raw Coated Kibble, which I thought he’d love because those were the raw nuggets he had, but no. Ate it once, wouldn’t eat it again. I decided to go back to Fromm since we never had an issues, and a store opened near me where I could get it. Ate it for a few days, and now both of my dogs turn their nose up at it, which is strange because my other dog could will eat legitimately anything. Which leads me here. Absolutely confused and in information overload with the amount of best dog food lists, articles, and google searches.

For reference, my dog is a chihuahua/corgi/mix of some sort. He’s around 13 pounds, and has no allergies. He’s been on grain free, but I’m not opposed to not grain free at this point because I just want him to eat without having to mix yucky wet food in there. Anyone have any top/tried and true brands they can suggest?

[anonymous]

@ Connie I
I agree Fromm is the best! Now about the raw, well I won’t go there 🙂
Glad your dogs are doing well.

PS We are using the Fromm Weight Management Gold at present as a base. Excellent!

[Connie I]

I have had giant breed Saint Bernards for 46 years and in four months will be adding a Caucasian Mountain Dog. They range from 180 to 204 lb . I have tried all different kinds of dog food and the best I have found and have used for a very long time is Fromm gold for large breed dogs. We don’t ever feed Saint Bernards puppy food when they’re little because it makes them grow too fast and it can cause issues in there joints later on in life. I do not have any throwing up of bile, we have no diarrhea, and they love it. We also feed Raw on top of the dry. My Saint Bernards live to be 12 and 13 years old and don’t really have any joint issues until there about 10. For anyone I would highly suggest Fromm gold large breed dog food. All you can do is try it for every individual dog by a small bag and go from there.

[Patricia A]

Christine is it a possibility that low blood sugar is contributing to seizure activity since he eats only once a day and very little? Maybe some lean boiled hamburger topper with kibble and string beans, carrots will help with his appetite and assure he gets enough animal protein. I boil chicken and add a tiny bit of the water to kibble also. Also maybe below article is of help. Common causes of seizures are flea/tick meds even when discontinued can result in ongoing seizures in some dogs as well as heart worm meds and vaccinations.
Diet and Epilepsy Link

Environmental control is a significant element in gaining better management of your dog’s seizures. Start with what goes into him. Feeding a home-prepared diet, cooked or raw, can make all the difference for some dogs. Though there are virtually no studies to determine whether there is a relationship between diet and seizure activity, many holistic veterinarians report anecdotal evidence that a top-quality home-prepared diet can play a large part in management of seizures.

Allergy testing for grain and protein sensitivities is another tool you can use to identify and remove any potential seizure triggers.

Dr. Kelleher also advocates the use of taurine supplementation for epileptic dogs at a dose of 250 milligrams per 40 pounds body weight daily. Taurine supplementation is especially important for dogs who eat commercial and grain-based diets. This amino acid is found in the central nervous system and skeletal muscle and is concentrated in the brain and heart. It’s unknown whether that has anything to do with the fact that taurine supplementation can reduce seizure activity, especially in those dogs experiencing tremors or noise triggered seizures. Discuss this or any other supplement with your dog’s veterinarian.

If feeding a home-prepared diet isn’t possible, find the highest-quality commercial dog food. Grains in the diet, including treats, should be kept to a minimum.

Keep in mind that many commercial dog foods include rosemary extract and sage, both of which are known to be seizure triggers in some sensitive dogs. Processed treats like rawhide chews and pigs ears should also be avoided with epileptics. Sharing human food containing MSG or cured products like hot dogs and luncheon meats is also not recommended. Many human takeout foods, instant, ready made, and convenience foods also contain chemical ingredients that can be adverse to the health of a seizure-prone dog. Cleaning up your dog’s diet is good incentive to do the same with your own.

Frequent, small meals are helpful in managing epilepsy, as keeping the blood sugar stabilized seems to help. Hypoglycemia can contribute to seizure activity, especially in smaller breeds where the dog’s digestive tract and his meals are proportionately smaller. Grain products are especially suspect in animals who have seizures regularly. Feeding frequent, small meals is also helpful for coping with the increased hunger experienced by dogs who are given phenobarbital. Snacks such as fresh or steamed vegetables or fruit pieces are great low calorie treats that can keep your dog satisfied and increase his seizure threshold.

Other Canine Epilepsy Triggers

Despite the changes in recommended vaccine protocols recommended by most of the major university-based veterinary medical schools, many veterinarians continue to recommend annual vaccinations for their patients. In a seizure-prone dog, a vaccine booster can trigger seizure activity for at least 30 days. This is one reason that Dr. Dodds recommends avoiding routine vaccination for canine epileptics.

Many owners of epileptic dogs ask their veterinarians to test their dogs’ vaccine titer levels instead, to ensure the animals have adequate antibodies to protect them from disease. If the results indicate a dog does not have adequate immune protection for a particular disease, the appropriate vaccination can be administered individually, rather than in a “5 in 1” vaccine combination.

Regular rabies vaccines are required in each state by law. These vaccines can be especially risky for epileptics; owners of epileptic dogs have lots of anecdotal evidence of this. Check with your local municipality to see if proof of adequate vaccine titer test results are acceptable in place of vaccinating an epileptic dog annually . Many towns and cities will accept documented titer tests as proof of vaccination.

Since exposure to many chemicals can trigger seizures in sensitive dogs, it should not come as a surprise that many heartworm and flea preventative treatments that are systemically administered can be disastrous for many epileptic dogs. While elimination of these treatments is not always possible, care must be taken with a seizure-prone dog when preventing heartworm infestation. Several of the most popular heartworm preventatives actually list tremors or convulsions as rare side effects, and can be contraindicated with a dog that is given daily phenobarbital.

Flea products containing insect growth regulator can cause twitching and muscle weakness when an animal is overexposed. Keep in mind these cautions are given for normal canine populations. An epileptic is commonly more sensitive to these products and great care must be taken when protecting them from heartworm and flea infestation.

[joanne l]

Patricia that is what I do, I feed raw red meat and dry food. So I do give less dry food b/c it is not the only thing he eats. He is a GSD so I can’t do just homemade. I also cook chicken and I rotate with tuna. So I kind of do both fresh food and dry food. But as far as grains go it is still not high in protein like legumes and peas. I feel like a broken record myself. LOL I stress so much how grain free is nothing but a boost of pea protein. I looked up protein in legumes and peas and chickpeas vereses barley, wheat, corn, rice, oatmeal. And the finding was that legumes, peas and chickpeas have higher protein content. This is not just an opinion it is a fact. It is not that hard to figure out why the protein in grain free is higher. I know you know this when you seen the ingredients on the foods you mentioned. So I think some good fresh meat and a good grain in dry food is a good choice. But if people can feed just fresh of course that is the best way to go.

[Patricia A]

Joanne true about affordability is a big reason for feeding kibble especially to larger dogs. But I can see no reason why kibble can’t be supplemented with some whole meat food.I’ve posted this so many times I’m sick of myself writing it. How hard or costly is it to buy a little extra chicken breasts or lean beef etc. and add at times to a little less kibble? I have small dogs so the freeze dried such as Primal isn’t breaking the bank but I can understand it would be very costly for larger dogs. The raw is less costly though and doesn’t contain peas, potatoes etc.
People looking for a healthy diet for their dog will never find it in any kibble. It’s like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[Adrianne L]

Hi, when we got our puppy, she was on a raw diet. We decided to continue that, and also introduce kibble. I didn’t like the idea of feeding my pup raw food so I decided to explore other options so I can slowly phase out raw food. Decided to try The Honest Kitchen when I heard about it. The shop owner recommended Embark for puppies as it’s highest on the protein scale for their product range. She loves it! But overtime, we noticed she started playing and eating her poop. She’ll even bring it to her bed to eat. We thought it was a behavioural change or a phase initially. Then we spoke to a trainer who suggested it could be a diet issue. So we did the elimination method, and once we stopped feeding her THK, she left her poop alone. Anyone else faces this issue/ knows what’s the issue? I’m just wondering if THK doesn’t give her the required nutrients she needs resulting in her eating her poop, or THK is so tasty that even after pooping she wants a second go at it. I still have about 3lbs left of it don’t know what to do with it.

[Susan]

I’ve read people who feed Grain free kibble, raw, wet, cook have done the DCM tests, their dog results came back good but these results aren’t being reported, some vets are just reporting the bad results.

FDA wants people who have feed grain free, raw, cooked etc & had the tests for DCM done & their dogs test have come back “GOOD” to make sure these results are being reported as well…
https://www.safetyreporting.hhs.gov/SRP2/en/Home.aspx?sid=b8c6eb98-8756-45fe-9f62-4410f9498943

“Additionally, any reports of illness thought to be connected to food products are voluntary. We rely on pet owners and veterinarians to provide reports of illness, as well as clinical evidence to help document the case. Unlike in human health, there is no centralized reporting system comparable to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which utilizes reports through medical professionals, consumers, and state, local and tribal health agencies.”

[Cindy S]

Thanks Susan. I feed nature variety grain free limited ingredient, so not really raw.

[Ashley D]

So I took my Magnus (almost 2 year old boxer) to the vet today. He had been perfectly fine until about 1pm after our groomer left. He burped up this brown, awe full smelling liquid and had been trying to lick and eat everything he could get his paws on. He was sitting there, swallowing, lapping, licking for about an hour when the whining started. The vet didn’t necessarily diagnose him with anything…she just told me it wasn’t bloat and didn’t seem like an obstruction. She gave him a cerenia injection and sent me home with instructions to feed him a bland diet for a few days. We got home and he was better, for about four hours. Now, more than 12 hours later, he is sleeping. But he has been waking up all night to these episode of frantic licking/swallowing/lapping/gulping.

My vet seems to think his food might be too rich for him, and suggested I look for a grain inclusive, low fat, lower protein food. Switching my dogs’ food is always so overwhelming and stressful, because I want to make a good responsible choice for their wellbeing, and not just pick whatever popular food is out there.

Any suggestions on a good quality, grain inclusive, low fat, low protein dry kibble? It has to be dry for a couple reasons. 1) he is 70 lbs and I think I would go broke feeding him raw, freeze dried, or wet fooods. 2) he has a tendency to scarf his food down. I’ve tried slow feeders, but he outsmarts them every time…so I hand feed him, like a bird to ensure that he chews and takes his time eating.

Thanks in advance,

Ashley (a concerned, sleep deprived dog mom)

[anonymous]

There are no veterinarians or veterinary nutritionists affiliated with this site. Therefore it may be best to go by the latest FDA recommendations.

Basically , vets are advising to go with a grain-inclusive dog food for now.
Avoid legumes, peas, potatoes at least for the first 10 ingredients.

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/questions-answers-fda-center-veterinary-medicines-investigation-possible-connection-between-diet-and excerpt below

17. What’s the safest diet for my dog?
Different dogs have different nutritional needs based on a number of factors, so nutrition advice is not one-size-fits-all. The FDA recommends asking your veterinarian, who may consult a board-certified or veterinary nutritionist, for advice about what to feed your dog.
It’s important to note that the reports include dogs that have eaten grain-free and grain containing foods and also include vegetarian or vegan formulations. They also include all forms of diets: kibble, canned, raw and home-cooked. Therefore, we do not think these cases can be explained simply by whether or not they contain grains, or by brand or manufacturer.
To put this issue into proper context, the American Veterinary Medical Association estimates that there are 77 million pet dogs in the United States. As of April 30, 2019, the FDA has received reports about 560 dogs diagnosed with DCM suspected to be linked to diet. Tens of millions of dogs have been eating dog food without developing DCM. If you are concerned about the diet you are currently feeding your dog, FDA recommends working with your veterinarian, who may consult a board-certified veterinary nutritionist, to determine the best diet for your dog’s need.

[Susan]

Hi,
Is Nature’s Variety raw?? When raw diet is too high in bone this can cause constipation..
My boy has IBD mainly stomach & he does really well on Wellness Core, Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato, Canidae Pure Meadow Senior & Canidae Pure Wild kibbles…
Actually dogs need less fiber or no fiber, Patches vet told me, a dogs digestive tract is short made to digest a raw meat diet..

If your looking for a kibble look at “Canidae Pure Meadow Senior” & “Wellness Core Senior” kibbles they both are high meat protein, low in carbs & the Canidae Pure Meadow formula is lower in fat 10.8% max & is very high in Omega oils for ageing joints & bones..

[joanne l]

HI Scott I was using natures Instinct can food and my dog got sick. So now I cook for him and give him his dry food. It is better to make your own moist food. I had so much trouble with can food you can’t imagine. I don’t feed the raw dog food I am afraid too, so I give him raw meat when it is on sale and it is cheaper than the raw dog food.

[joanne l]

Please don’t feed the dream bones!! I had a very bad experience with them. When my dog was 2 years old I gave him one and he had diarrhea and pooping blood. I stopped the dream bones and thank God he was fine. I don’t recommend any rawhide or chews that is just my opinion. Also no pig ears either.

[haleycookie]

Check out flynnaceky on Instagram. She is a vet tech who feeds her shepherds balanced homemade raw. She raised both of them from small pups on it. She also has a raw feeding page flynnandace.eats on Instagram. She isn’t great at responding sometimes but maybe she’ll respond if u comment or dm her.

[Diane J]

Thank you, but no thank you, that wasn’t the type of answer I need right now. Btw, those food recalls are on man-made kibble-type raw foods, not actual raw feeding. There’s so much science to prove that raw feeding on the BARF/prey diet model is the best for our pets that this is a scandalously non-helpful response to a question like mine. Keep your non-raw feeding bias off of a raw feeding thread please.

[anonymous]

I hope these articles and the comments help someone even if the original poster is not receptive to them.
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw

[Patricia A]

Robert since kibble is a VERY small portion of my dogs’ diet I can’t make a suggestion if you feed this exccluviley. I only use as a base and I always rotate with at least two manufactors/brands as well as different proteins/flavors. No problems with digestion since I do it VERY slowly. When I’m about 1/4 done with one bag I start introducing a few kibbles of the new one. I use toppers always. Be it boiled chicken, lean steak if they’re lucky that day lol, string beans, boiled fish if we have such as salmon . Didn’t catch any keepers on the party boat or they would have enjoyed some fresh Fluke. Watermelon is their favorite. Don’t be afraid of giving real food as a topper for kibble also. A little at a time to see how well he does.
Most of the time they get a topper of Primal. I stick to the 5* lower in fat.NO legumes or potatoes in Primal. https://primalpetfoods.com/collections/canine-raw-freeze-dried-formulas. Some dogs are prone to pancreatitis with the higher fat proteins. I use turkey/Sardine, Duck, rabbit at times in the freeze dried. Just break up and moisten with warm water and add the dry kibble on the side. Again I started with a little piece and GRADUALLY added each to my rotation. I use Stella Chewy’s https://www.stellaandchewys.com in rotation freeze dried again in turkey, chicken and venison blend. All 5* by the advisor. NO LEGUMES or potatoes in their freeze dried. They have a very popular f/b page and pets are doing very well with these freeze dried toppers.I feel good about giving variety and my Chihuahuas’ are healthy on exams. Hope this helps .

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Diane J]

Help. I need concrete information from someone experienced with switching 8 week old kibble-weaned puppies to raw feeding successfully.

I’m an experienced raw feeder, having fed 7 dogs raw over the past 16 years, but I’ve only switched adult rescues to raw feeding. On Sunday, my husband and I bought a purebred GSD puppy and on Monday we switched him to raw following my choices of all of the recommendations for doing so I’d read, some of which were very contradictory of each other.

He has not done well with chewing up the bones. I initially tried a chicken back cut into small pieces and mashing the bones with a meat tenderizer a little to attempt to soften them. Then I switched to chicken necks, but he swallowed some of those whole, and does that a bit with smaller pieces of it too, after minimal chewing.

He had diarrhea followed by constipation and developing a temporary anorexia. He’s been eating softer cooked food today, but didn’t eat much when I tried again with raw. My husband and I are lost and confused and need help from someone experienced in switching 8 week old kibble-weaned puppies to raw food.

Thank you in advance,
~Diane

[anonymous]

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/questions-answers-fda-center-veterinary-medicines-investigation-possible-connection-between-diet-and

17. What’s the safest diet for my dog?
Different dogs have different nutritional needs based on a number of factors, so nutrition advice is not one-size-fits-all. The FDA recommends asking your veterinarian, who may consult a board-certified or veterinary nutritionist, for advice about what to feed your dog.
It’s important to note that the reports include dogs that have eaten grain-free and grain containing foods and also include vegetarian or vegan formulations. They also include all forms of diets: kibble, canned, raw and home-cooked. Therefore, we do not think these cases can be explained simply by whether or not they contain grains, or by brand or manufacturer.
To put this issue into proper context, the American Veterinary Medical Association estimates that there are 77 million pet dogs in the United States. As of April 30, 2019, the FDA has received reports about 560 dogs diagnosed with DCM suspected to be linked to diet. Tens of millions of dogs have been eating dog food without developing DCM. If you are concerned about the diet you are currently feeding your dog, FDA recommends working with your veterinarian, who may consult a board-certified veterinary nutritionist, to determine the best diet for your dog’s need.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2019/06/fda-update-on-grain-free-diets-and-heart-disease-in-dogs/ excerpt below, click on link for article and comments

Further data collection and research will be necessary to determine the precise relationship between diet and DCM in these cases. There are likely multiple factors involved, including the ingredients in the diet, the genetics or particular breeds and individuals, and others we may not yet know about. Pet owners feeding these diets don’t need to panic, since far more dogs on these diets do NOT have DCM than do. However, if you are feeding one of these foods, or a diet similar in composition, and especially if you are feeding this to a golden retriever, it would be a good idea to talk to your vet about screening your pet for DCM and considering a change in diet.

[AdinaFay]

Hey all,
Has anyone ever tried or looked into free-feeding supplements to their pooch that’s on a homemade or raw diet? I’m interested in if this has been done before or if there is a specific reason that it is /not/ done. It’s (at least as far as I am aware) standard practice for livestock and horses, and most dogs/cats will already self-regulate to a certain extent with behaviors such as grass-eating.

Background:
After struggling for two years with my 8lb mix’s allergies I’m committing to an elimination diet and, since that will be a long process of me making his meals, am also looking into proper balancing of homemade and raw meals. I don’t want to go a pre-made/balanced route because, at least for the first few months, they would defeat the point of the diet. I understand the concepts of balancing the diet as a whole, took animal nutrition in college, and am confident that I can create a menu that serves him well. However, I also understand how and why the AAFCO standards exist and I like the concept of him having access to additional supplements should he need them without me risking over-dosing him by providing a daily vitamin along with a diet that is well-balanced.

Thanks in advance for any input!

(X-posted in the supplements forum)

• This topic was modified 4 years ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Fix Duplicate Topic Title

[AdinaFay]

Hey all,
Has anyone ever tried or looked into free-feeding supplements to their pooch that’s on a homemade or raw diet? I’m interested in if this has been done before or if there is a specific reason that it is /not/ done. It’s (at least as far as I am aware) standard practice for livestock and horses, and most dogs/cats will already self-regulate to a certain extent with behaviors such as grass-eating.

Background:
After struggling for two years with my 8lb mix’s allergies I’m committing to an elimination diet and, since that will be a long process of me making his meals, am also looking into proper balancing of homemade and raw meals. I don’t want to go a pre-made/balanced route because, at least for the first few months, they would defeat the point of the diet. I understand the concepts of balancing the diet as a whole, took animal nutrition in college, and am confident that I can create a menu that serves him well. However, I also understand how and why the AAFCO standards exist and I like the concept of him having access to additional supplements should he need them without me risking over-dosing him by providing a daily vitamin along with a diet that is well-balanced.

Thanks in advance for any input!

[anonymous]

FDA Update on Grain-free Diets and Heart Disease in Dogs

excerpt from comments below
**** ****** says:
June 30, 2019 at 6:48 pm
I read the FDA reports and my impression is the FDA should have kept the names of the kibble manufacturers confidential because of likely referral bias. I’d like to hear their rationale for this.
Note that almost all the kibbles listed are high quality/high cost kibbles. I would have expected to see some of the mass market brands one can find in WalMart, Petco or your local grocery store. 3 days ago I took my Newf for a routine check for her SubAortic Stenosis at a multi-specialty clinic. The cost was $291.75. The FDA link isn’t totally clear, but it appears that most of the cases being studied are those for which the dogs have been evaluated with a cardiac echo study. I think it is likely that the same socioeconomic group that can afford cardiac echo studies correlates highly with the socioeconomic group that purchases costly boutique kibble.

skeptvet says:
July 1, 2019 at 9:53 am
Good points. Lots of possible confounders here. I think another one is that many of the brands on the list have made a reputation/market niche out of being “natural” or alternative to traditional diets in some way, and the grain-free claim tends to appeal to the same market segment–namely, mostly affluent owners who are drawn to alternative or unconventional practices and who find words like “natural” and “holistic” appealing.
However, it is important not to lose sight of the fact that strongest common thread here is not brand or market segment but grain-free and legumes/pulses. Lots of other foods by the same manufacturers are not on the list and do not have this ingredient profile. It is also interesting to see “kangaroo” as a common ingredient in foods on the list given how rare it is in dog food generally (especially compared to beef and pork, which occur less often in the suspect foods), so the exotic protein source angle is still worth investigating

[Patricia A]

But anon raw was also listed . Not sure but I believe MOST raws don’t contain legumes or potatoes .I don’t think people who started home cooking are not adding all the legumes with exotic meats either. Hoping the people that do home cooked just don’t throw some meat in a bowl and call it a day without knowing enough about other added nutrients needed for a dogs health. I personally wouldn’t trust myself for that.
The only new info is that now they implicate not only grain free/high legume kibble but canned, raw and home cooked and ALSO grain inclusive.
Call me a broken record but I’m sticking to my guns. VARIETY in both the brand, protein, flavor . As well as NOT just kibble .
Can’t wait to read next update to see if a brand, protein, combination of protein and legumes blocking amino acids for heart health ,,not enough animal protein vs legumes , people not feeding enough food for proper nutrition with a food that’s already inferior to begin with or….non of the above.
Hope answer is solved in my lifetime.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

FDA update July 2019 report: Well then they’re SO MUCH closer in narrowing down the cause. (sarcasm)

It’s important to note that the reports include dogs that have eaten grain-free and grain containing foods and also include vegetarian or vegan formulations. They also include all forms of diets: kibble, canned, raw and home-cooked. Therefore, we do not think these cases can be explained simply by whether or not they contain grains, or by brand or manufacturer.

[Judy K]

In Dog Advisor’s release today you wrote “The Food and Drug Administration has named 16 dog food brands with an
increased risk of a type of canine heart disease known as
dilated cardiomyopathy… or DCM.”
This is not an accurate statement. The recent FDA update did NOT say the 16 named brands had “increased risk”…. Dogs within this limited and inconclusive study were reported as having eaten raw.. home cooked.. grain.. no grain.. canned. Of course some of the top popular brands would be among those.
What is especially unfair about the naming of brands is several of the top most reputable brands known for consistency of quality in all aspects. Most of which also
Produce multiple blends, several without peas, lentils or potatoes in the top ten ingredients. Ppl need only select a blend they feel most comfortable feeding.
Whether intended or not, naming the brands will likely do great harm to some of the best companies with the best track record right here named as such on Dog Food Advisors.
But again to be clear… FDA did NOT state the brands had increased risk for causing DCM.
Perhaps a retraction is warranted.

[pugmomsandy]

@patricia a: I don’t weigh my pugs except rarely. They stay around 22-24 lbs which is heavy by standard. I will say that if I have an 18 lb foster standing next to my 20 something pug, they look the same except for mine have more muscle definition and they sure are strong. I always thought they were sled dogs in another life. They’ve been eating higher protein foods for years, including raw. I even put the fosters on a low carb, mod/high protein diet for weight loss.

[aimee]

haleycookie,

I read through Champion’s response and in my opinion it is very reminiscent of and just as unbiased as the response of the tobacco industry when the first link was made between smoking and cancer. : )

In my opinion, very cleverly written to model after the response of the tobacco industry, “our science found no concerns” but as I read it I find that what they are reporting is very vague and appears to be poorly done.

For example what is “long-term feeding trials with enhanced DCM protocols” In regards to length was it 2 days, 2 weeks, a month, 2 months?? Considering it isn’t yet know how long is may take for dietary DCM to become apparent how are they confident that their trial would have been long enough to find any abnormalities.

What are “enhanced DCM protocols”. The only takeaway I got from their response is that perhaps they measured taurine. Considering most cases have normal taurine levels it seems silly to me to sound an “all clear” based on that test.

Champion likes to point out that dietary DCM appears to be uncommon. The true incidence isn’t known. But I think it is fair to say that not every dog/cat consuming a problematic diet becomes ill. In the Melamine crisis huge numbers of dogs and cats that were exposed didn’t become ill. Same with the association between renal disease and chicken jerky or between grapes/raisins and renal disease. So for illustration sake let’s say that for problem “X ” 1 in a thousand becomes ill. Is testing several dogs relevant? I would say it is not. And Champion hasn’t said what number of dogs participated in their trials. Hmmm

Let’s look at this statement…
“In the recipes Champion makes, we emphasize fresh and raw meat with total animal-derived ingredients ranging from 60 to 85 percent of the finished product. Legumes are not a significant feature in Champion’s recipes, and never have been.”

Take the finished product Acana Free Run Poultry chosen at random GA is 29% protein 17% fat and 12 % moisture and I’ll toss in 3 % ash. 100-29-17-12-3= 39% min plant based nutrient.

Looking at the ingredient list and removing the animal based ingredients , and discarding the ingredients after salt leaves us with whole green peas, whole red lentils, whole pinto beans, , chickpeas, whole green lentils, whole yellow peas, lentil fiber,

Those ingredients, except for the fiber, are in addition to being sources of carbohydrate are also sources of protein From USDA nutrient database an average of 1 part protein for every 3 parts carb. So of that 29 % protein 10 grams may be from the legumes.

Total plant content 39 % + 10% and you get 49% plant based ingredients which I consider a “significant feature”
Total animal based 19% + 17% fat for a total of 36%

In that example I made assumptions as I am using the GA which is just min values therefore the results are not completely accurate but it is very different from the claim of 60-85% animal derived content in the finished product.
Personally, the only thing I can figure that may be 85% animal content finished product would be some of the treats.

Several years ago I asked Champion if they did AAFCO feeding trials. They answered affirmatively. On further inquiry as I recall I asked how long they were for and they replied a few weeks. Hmm more questions and they report they test for palatability, digestibility and stool quality. Most would assume by an AAFCO feeding trial they were talking about a trial for nutritional adequacy but that is not the response I got.

I see this response from Champion as nothing more than a marketing piece . I urge caution whenever looking at any statements made by any food manufacturer in regards to their product.

Perhaps if Champion really wanted to contribute to the knowledge base they should hire veterinary cardiologists and hold free echo screening for DCM for dogs who have eaten their food as their primary source of nutrition. With all the frequent buyer programs it shouldn’t be too hard for retailers to track Champion’s customers.

[Dean S]

Dogs are not vegans. That said, having green beans, pumpkin, peas (all soft and cooked people not raw from garden) are a safe FILLER.

Dogs need meat and fish. Lentils? Legumes of any kind? Even humans do not consume these well.

That being said, the FDA “hit list” does not have one brand by the BIG BOYS such as Purina, Iams, Science Diet (Purina I believe) and let’s all remember, just like our food supply, the big grocers and major global companies are doing their best to control and lord over our food supply. They do the same with pet food.

Also if you feed your dog 100% dry kibble, grain free or otherwise and they are NOT ACTIVE, that kibble sits in gut half digested. Just like someone drinking Gatorade and eating bread all day, sitting on the couch and no working out, you get FAT.

We have 4 dogs, I walk them every day at least 1 mile, and they have Only Natural Pet Power Fusion kibble as 1/4 their meal rest I make.

Many have purchased “designer dogs’ have them in a tiny apartment, walk perhaps a few times a week tops, leave them home alone while they are at work, and feed them the latest and greatest fashionable dog food. Dogs need to RUN and play every day and they are carnivores.

It’s really that simple.

[Jana L]

I use this food all the time. I have fed the red and the blue to my dogs and cats – it’s especially nice for the cats since they don’t always go for bones and organ meat as enthusiastically as the dogs.
These blends can also be cooked – it probably seems like heresy to most raw feeders, but I do cook for my dogs! They get a small portion of cooked vegetables with their meals as well, and raw eggs from my own hens. We’ve been doing this for nearly two years now, and I’m very happy with their health. Nice coats, active, bright, good weight.

[anonymous]

Bump:

You can call Fromm for more information and where you can purchase.
https://frommfamily.com/ 1- 800-325-6331
According to the person I spoke to at Fromm they have a veterinarian and a nutritionist on staff.

You can draw your own conclusions after speaking to someone directly at Fromm.

They won’t come here despite all the misinformation. The person I spoke to said to encourage people that have questions to feel free to contact them with any concerns, also their website is very informative.

[haleycookie]

The protein is hard on their kidneys is a myth. Unless they have kidney problems already due to some other type of disease high protein will not hurt their kidneys. Dogs are carnivore’s that don’t require carbs in their diet. So their diet could be mostly protein and fat.
Why are u looking to go grain? Carb loading your dogs isn’t healthy for them. Most kibble is mostly carb though. Some lower carb foods include merrick backcountry, natures variety instinct, essence dog food, and canidae pure ancestral. All are American made and sourced to my knowledge. You could def email the companies and see though. Add toppers, raw boost bits, wet food, bone broths. All for hose things will ad variety into the diet and introduce less processed foods into their diet. If you’re worried about dcm just know taurine is not found in carbs, grains, or highly processed meats. It’s found solely in fresh meat and organs. So that is the route to go if you want a healthy heart.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by haleycookie.

[haleycookie]

I’ve seen this before. Looks decent but you could prob spend less and do a homemade raw diet yourself a lot more easily. But if u feel like forking out insane amounts of money for someone else to do it for u go for it.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by haleycookie.

[anonymous]

Misleading Advertising for Raw Pet Food (again)

excerpt below

“Finally, the terms “human grade” and “restaurant grade” are frequently used for the ingredients despite the fact that these are not legally defined terms or part of the USDA meat grading system. Use of such meaningless terms cannot be anything but misleading and deceptive since they appear to indicate an official judgment on the quality of the food’s ingredients when the manufacturers must know that no such judgment has been made by anyone but them”.

https://www.petfoodindustry.com/blogs/10-debunking-pet-food-myths-and-misconceptions/post/6917-are-human-grade-pet-foods-really-human-grade excerpt below

AAFCO guidelines for human grade claims
In its Official Publication (2018), AAFCO clearly outlines the guidelines for pet food companies wanting to make human grade claims. The guidelines are broken down into four parts on pages 151 to 152. For purposes of this blog, I will abbreviate these parts:
The use of the term “human grade” is only acceptable to the product as a whole. Every ingredient and finished food must be stored, handled, processed and transported in a manner that is consistent with current good manufacturing processes (cGMPs).
The definition “human grade” is false and misleading if the finished good as a whole is not human edible. Human grade claims cannot be made on individual ingredients if the finished good is not human grade.
For substantiation of human grade claims, a manufacturer must have documentation for the following:
a. That each ingredient is fit for human consumption
b. Every ingredient and finished food is stored, handled, processed and transported in a manner consistent and compliant with cGMPs for human edible foods in 21 CFR part 117.
c. The manufacturing facility is licensed to produce human food by the appropriate authority (local, county or state public health authorities).
4. A pet food with human grade claims must be labeled for its intended use (e.g., dog food).

[Owen J]

Proper nutrition of dogs should be as close as possible to the diet of wild animals. Dogs should not be fed boiled dishes such as cereals, or high-calorie baked goods. In order for the intestinal microflora to be maintained in a normal state, and the body was able to perform protective functions, it is necessary to have raw foods in the dog menu. First of all, it should be meat and offal, less often should be given fish and fish products. Sources of vitamins and fiber are vegetables and fruits. After all, a decrease in immunity is a direct path to diseases such as obesity, allergies, cardiovascular disorders, and others.
https://herepup.com/best-dog-food-for-toy-breeds/

[haleycookie]

Just an FYI, no over the counter food has enough glucosamine in it to make any difference. It’s just a marketing thing but when u break down the amounts per serving size they usually contain almost no glucosamine and chondroitin. I would recommend cosaquin for those issues. Or if it is severe a prescription supplement from the vet. Beyer also has a new joint line that are prescription strength that u can get over the counter.
I would look at canidae senior formulas. They have two varieties that are excellent. They also have a vet on staff formulating their foods.
Fromm is good as well, just keep in mind “Senior” is just a nice way of saying less meat, more carbs. Which for a dog that is getting older and having muscle wasting is not ideal. So I would recommend maybe finding a high meat all life stage food. Or look at natures variety raw boost senior. Merrick also has a great senior meat based formula.
Higher meat foods will require less feedings so will be similar amount of money spent at the end of the day.

[Patricia A]

This was an eye opener of the standards to meet AAFCO requirements.
No Proof!

Until recently, I was under a false impression – and no pet food company representative hastened to correct it! I thought if a food had a “nutrient values” claim on its label, its maker would have to submit proof that the food inside the can or bag actually contains nutrients in the required amounts. I guess I assumed the products would be tested by third party laboratories and the results would be filed with state feed control officials.

I was wrong.

The actual requirement is this: A company representative must sign and have notarized an affidavit that states, “This product meets the nutrient levels established in the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for (growth/reproduction, maintenance, or all life stages).” And then they have to keep a copy of that affidavit.

That’s it. Seriously.

No lab test results or analysis of the nutrients confirming that the statement is true are required.

And the affidavit doesn’t even get filed with the state! It just has to be kept “on file” in the company’s own files!

No kidding: The company has to, in effect, pinky swear that their products meet the required nutrient levels. And consumers have to just trust that the products do.

Editorial: I don’t think that’s right. I don’t think that’s sufficient.

Why This Matters

This matters because most dogs get most (if not all) of their nutrients from commercial food. They are a captive audience, literally. They are not free to select their own foods, they can’t follow their instincts to drive them to ingredients that contain any nutrients they may be lacking. What’s more, many owners are warned by their veterinarians and other pet professionals against feeding any table scraps or “human food” to dogs. And pet food companies encourage owners to feed their products and only their products, and to use extreme caution when switching products, lest the dog explode (or something) from diarrhea (or something).

Put another way: If most dogs eat a single type of food and nothing but that food, shouldn’t their owners be able to verify that the food truly contains every nutrient their dogs need?

Raising the Bar

I’ve long believed that, for the reasons above, consumers ought to be able to ask for and readily receive a complete nutrient analysis of their dogs’ food – to make sure that the diet contains adequate (and not excessive) amounts of the nutrients that experts agree dogs need – and that was before I knew that it was possible that products that are labelled as “complete and balanced” might not be.

Last year, we surveyed the dog food companies whose products met our selection criteria and asked this question: “Do you make a complete nutrient analysis for each of your products available to consumers? If so, are the analyses available only upon request, or is this information on your website?” As it turned out, very few of the companies had nutrient analyses readily available, and some of the ones that said they had them available were not able (or perhaps not willing) to produce them.

So, this year, we sent the pet food companies whose products have been on our “approved canned dog food” list an email that said, “There will be one significant change in how we will select and present the ‘approved’ foods on our list. This year, we are asking each company to provide us with a fairly recent (within the past year) ‘typical analysis’ for each of the canned dogs foods that they offer, and we will be comparing the values with the AAFCO nutrient profiles for dogs. If we do not receive the analyses, the foods will not appear on our ‘approved foods’ list this year.”

The Results

A few companies promptly sent us what we asked for, and these companies now constitute our gold-star picks – our top-rated producers of canned foods. See the “2016 Canned Dog Food Review” for a list of these companies.

In contrast, there were other companies we didn’t hear back from. We are more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt; maybe they didn’t receive our email? Maybe our phone message got lost? If they respond in the next few months, we will update their information here.

We heard from a few companies that said they would be happy to get this information to us, but they needed more time. So, for them, too, we’re going to reserve space in the next few issues to update their information.

Quite a few companies sent us something that’s close to what we asked for; quite a few sent us nutrient analyses of their products that were generated by computer software. Different companies use different programs to generate these analyses, but they all work in a similar fashion: The programs are loaded with nutrient values for every dog food ingredient you can dream of, and then a formula for a given dog food is entered – so many pounds of this, so many ounces of that, etc. – and the software calculates the amount of nutrients that will be in the resulting food.

Literally every company has these software-driven analyses – projections, really – of their formulas, because that’s how pet food is formulated today. The concern is, how do these projections pan out when compared to actual laboratory analysis of the nutrients?

We put this question to a number of pet food experts – including formulators and pet food company owners – and the answer was, it depends on a lot of things, including:

How closely the food manufacturer hews to the recipe for the food;
What software is used to analyze the recipe;
Whether or not the software takes into account chemical reactions between ingredients that take place when the food is mixed or cooked – reactions that might cause certain nutrient values to test at different levels than the software would predict; and
Whether the pet food company routinely tests their raw ingredients in a laboratory and enters updated nutrient values for those ingredients into the software.
All of these are reasons why computer-generated analyses might return very different values than a laboratory test of the actual dog food.

So, even though these computer-generated analyses are not exactly what we asked for, we’re going to give the companies that sent them to us the benefit of the doubt, too. For now, they still appear on the list of our “approved canned dog foods” that starting on page 8. If they, too, send us actual laboratory test results for their products, we’ll upgrade their status to our gold-star list in upcoming issues.

But we’re also giving all the companies a heads-up: Only the pet food makers that provide lab analyses of their products will appear on our list of “approved dry dog foods” in the February issue.

[Christie B]

I’ve had the worms in the bag of Purina food! I store my food in a plastic container with a lid and I was surprised to randomly find a moth fly out every so often when I opened it to feed my dog. It wasn’t until I got to the bottom of the bag that I finally noticed the small wriggly waxworms crawling about.

So the waxworms turn into Flour or Meal Moths and they generally find their way into food during packaging and storage. It can happen with an brand of food. Each female moth can lay up to 400 eggs. And when the conditions are right, your food is infested with worms. And they eat the food over the course of 2-3 months the chow down on the kibble until they cocoon for 2 weeks and emerge as moths. And the cycle continues.

It’s not a ‘dog food’ issue. Almost every grain silo worldwide has insect issues, including Meal moths. Most are treated with food grade Diatomaceous Earth or something equivalent. It’s not that the food is spoiled. It’s that some insect got dumped into the bag along with the kibble, settled down and decided to have a family.

It only take one female to ruin a bag of food. The worms are harmless, but I wouldn’t make my dog eat them.

Petco did refund me the bag of food.

[sabra rahiman]

My dog had alot of these issues. I found it was the chicken in processed food. He is now doing well on a barf raw diet. His stools used to be loose, diarrohea, gas..it was terrible. I noticed when i fed chicken he had red rashes and found it was this. its usually mixed with rice in alot of processed food. also i found by sorting gut PH levels things changed. So beefbone broth dosing for a few weeks, organic turmericpaste, coconut oil, kefir,barf diet, dandelion and nettle pureed, raw eggs. Once the stomach is at a healthy ph gut level everythings sorts its self. My pup is totally clear now 🙂