[theBCnut]

First of all, did you read the first few pages of this thread? Did you check out the links? The idea that protein causes problems was bad science and ignorance, so don’t worry about that.
Here is Hound Dog Mom’s latest list of foods that have the appropriate amount of calcium for large breed dogs.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
You have to sign up to view it, but it’s very worthwhile. Take the list with you to the pet boutiques around where you live and see what is available. DO NOT marry any one food, rotate foods. Do a search on the review side on diet rotation to learn more.

Keep your puppy thin, not just not fat, but thin. Less weight is less stress on joints.

Find a joint supplement with hyaluronic acid in it. That’s what the body needs to make repairs to joints. And consider feeding him a raw turkey neck once or twice a week, they naturally have good stuff for joints in them, since them have a lot of cartilage in them.

If you have bare floors, consider using throw or area rugs at least until he is grown. They think slip and falls can be a big factor in joint damage for puppies. And finally, no stairs for as long as possible. When he has to do stairs, make sure he does them at a walk.

[Tucker]

Hi All,

First post. Great site! Can’t believe I have had labs my entire life and never found it. I replied under large breed nutrition and wasn’t sure if I should have started another topic so I put it in both. Not sure of the protocol here yet 🙂

Apologies for the length… I wanted to get it all in 🙂

We just lost both of our labs last year in a one two punch within 2 months. Killed me 🙁 Floyd (my 11 1/2) Chocolate to prostrate cancer and KC (my girl 15 1/2) yellow to lack of mobility. That girl was bolted together more times and just kept on trucking. Pretty amazing… I was blessed. She may have cost me a fortune, but she was worth every penny and more. As close to a human as a dog can be 🙂 For anyone who has an older dog that is having trouble getting around I HIGHLY recommend trying acupuncture. I got two extra years of love out of her. 🙂 Now to the new…

A few months ago we started a new chapter in life and brought Tucker home. (I would put up a pic but I can’t figure out how to do it.. lol. Gorgeous White Male Lab. Great breeder, all of her dogs looked so healthy, great referrals. Then the unthinkable happened. We brought him home a few days before 8 weeks and on day two we were all on the bed ( I know… don’t even say it. There is a crate on there for when we sleep… Still want him on Daddy’s bed) I was at the top and my fiancé was at the bottom.. Tucker in the middle and he did a scoot and rolled of the bed… and began limping 🙁 I almost died. You all can only imagine! He favored his should for a few minutes and he was fine. Then two weeks later my finance was holding him, put him down and he favored for a minute and was fine. I was thinking maybe a bone bruise. Two weeks later it happened again!!! That was it… x-ray time. Our regular vet said there was a slight deformity in the round of the shoulder bone where it goes in the socket but it would it probably just go away and to keep him calm for a month or so. That doesn’t work for me. I’ve paid the price for listening to first opinions in the past and not investigating issues. I brought him to my Ortho who bolted my girl back together so many times and he gave me the real scoop…

OCD… I knew when he said come in my office it wasn’t a bone bruise. I’ve taken that walk before. 🙁 He’s old school and said monitor and if it gets bad we will fix it. He wasn’t showing signs of distress on manipulation. He said if it’s bad they yelp. I’ve researched everywhere and my brain feels like it is full of Bingo Balls right now.

Our breeder said she has never had a dog with OCD. I know nutrition and heredity are two factors, but in this case I have to believe that this is trauma related OCD and not from the others. With that in mind, I know slow growth, low calcium. Some say no carbs so grain free, others say not too much protein is bad which is what you get with grain free…

Bingo Balls :-/

Our breeder did not believe in puppy food and fed Kirkland Signature Salmon and Sweet Potato. I have a problem with Costco dog food. We got home and the vet said Iams puppy large breed was good. I think that is worse. Can’t believe I went there… I just wanted to do it all right. So here we are now.

I need the best dry food I can get considering his OCD condition in his left shoulder. I really don’t care what I spend on my bag of kibble. I just want to fix my puppy!!!

We got a harness instead of a collar so there is no unnecessary tugging, There are ramps everywhere so there is minimal impact on up a downs, and we try to control him as much as anyone could control a 4 month old lab. When the zoomies come you just have to go with the flow…lol.

Now I need to know the best dry kibble to feed him. Whatever will help as much as possible for this to heal and his bones to grow big and strong. 🙂

Side note … The vet did start him on a glucosamine pill that seems good. And then we talked to the lady at the holistic dog food store who says it may be bad because he is young and you don’t want it to take the place of his own body making it… seriously!!! like I didn’t have enough to worry about with the kibble….

Any help would be sooo greatly appreciated. I love my dogs more than people! I can’t change what happened and I have accepted that it was an accident, though preventable 🙁 Now I need to do everything I can to put things right!

Help me Doggie Food Forum… your my only hope! 🙂

Thank you everyone for all of your posts. They have been very helpful. This place is fabulous!

[Tucker]

Hi All,

First post. Great site! Can’t believe I have had labs my entire life and never found it.

Apologies for the length… I wanted to get it all in 🙂

We just lost both of our labs last year in a one two punch within 2 months. Killed me 🙁 Floyd (my 11 1/2) Chocolate to prostrate cancer and KC (my girl 15 1/2) yellow to lack of mobility. That girl was bolted together more times and just kept on trucking. Pretty amazing… I was blessed. She may have cost me a fortune, but she was worth every penny and more. As close to a human as a dog can be 🙂 For anyone who has an older dog that is having trouble getting around I HIGHLY recommend trying acupuncture. I got two extra years of love out of her. 🙂 Now to the new…

A few months ago we started a new chapter in life and brought Tucker home. (I would put up a pic but I can’t figure out how to do it.. lol. Gorgeous White Male Lab. Great breeder, all of her dogs looked so healthy, great referrals. Then the unthinkable happened. We brought him home a few days before 8 weeks and on day two we were all on the bed ( I know… don’t even say it. There is a crate on there for when we sleep… Still want him on Daddy’s bed) I was at the top and my fiancé was at the bottom.. Tucker in the middle and he did a scoot and rolled of the bed… and began limping 🙁 I almost died. You all can only imagine! He favored his should for a few minutes and he was fine. Then two weeks later my finance was holding him, put him down and he favored for a minute and was fine. I was thinking maybe a bone bruise. Two weeks later it happened again!!! That was it… x-ray time. Our regular vet said there was a slight deformity in the round of the shoulder bone where it goes in the socket but it would it probably just go away and to keep him calm for a month or so. That doesn’t work for me. I’ve paid the price for listening to first opinions in the past and not investigating issues. I brought him to my Ortho who bolted my girl back together so many times and he gave me the real scoop…

OCD… I knew when he said come in my office it wasn’t a bone bruise. I’ve taken that walk before. 🙁 He’s old school and said monitor and if it gets bad we will fix it. He wasn’t showing signs of distress on manipulation. He said if it’s bad they yelp. I’ve researched everywhere and my brain feels like it is full of Bingo Balls right now.

Our breeder said she has never had a dog with OCD. I know nutrition and heredity are two factors, but in this case I have to believe that this is trauma related OCD and not from the others. With that in mind, I know slow growth, low calcium. Some say no carbs so grain free, others say not too much protein is bad which is what you get with grain free…

Bingo Balls :-/

Our breeder did not believe in puppy food and fed Kirkland Signature Salmon and Sweet Potato. I have a problem with Costco dog food. We got home and the vet said Iams puppy large breed was good. I think that is worse. Can’t believe I went there… I just wanted to do it all right. So here we are now.

I need the best dry food I can get considering his OCD condition in his left shoulder. I really don’t care what I spend on my bag of kibble. I just want to fix my puppy!!!

We got a harness instead of a collar so there is no unnecessary tugging, There are ramps everywhere so there is minimal impact on up a downs, and we try to control him as much as anyone could control a 4 month old lab. When the zoomies come you just have to go with the flow…lol.

Now I need to know the best dry kibble to feed him. Whatever will help as much as possible for this to heal and his bones to grow big and strong. 🙂

Side note … The vet did start him on a glucosamine pill that seems good. And then we talked to the lady at the holistic dog food store who says it may be bad because he is young and you don’t want it to take the place of his own body making it… seriously!!! like I didn’t have enough to worry about with the kibble….

Any help would be sooo greatly appreciated. I love my dogs more than people! I can’t change what happened and I have accepted that it was an accident, though preventable 🙁 Now I need to do everything I can to put things right!

Help me Doggie Food Forum… your my only hope! 🙂

Thank you everyone for all of your posts. They have been very helpful. This place is fabulous!

[Bracha]

Hello,
I am new to this site (it was recommended by our pet shop owner). We live in Australia and thus spend a bit of time outdoors; bush and beach – lucky us. I have a very healthy German Shepard (as endorsed by my vet and every man that sees her walking the street – she has a large fan club, small town). She is de-sexed, large frame, straight back, 41Kg, 4 year 6 mnth. She has been with me since a puppy, 9 weeks. I initially fed her two different brands, but from about 2 months old she has been fed Dry Holistic Large Breed puppy than transitioned over to Holistic adult large breed. She thrives on it. Currently we are trying the Holistic Grain free large breed food and so far (2 weeks) all is well; her stools are a great shape, smell good and regular. Personally this is the only way to tell if your dog is responding to their feed in a positive way, check the pool daily!
I appreciate everyone has a budget, but am in total agreement with other members 4+ stars is the way to go.
I am currently researching the Raw diet option and will consider this diet. But the dry food is convenient. It is supplemented with 100 grams, human grade beef mince. I would be interested to hear members view on this combination of beef with dry turkey based feed; do they think it is self defeating? Enjoy reading the comments from like minded dedicated dog owners. Thanks

[NiceGuy55]

Brand new to the forum and holy cow you folks on here are so crazy about dog food – and I am so thankful for it because I’ve learned so much in one night just scanning through the posts! Calcium, protein, grain, ingredients… Thank you!!!

We’re welcoming a Newfie puppy into our family in a couple months – will be 9 wks old. Just want to make sure I’m understanding correctly – on the Large Breed Puppy Food List document with calcium info, this is a list of recommended kibble for PUPPIES, correct? I ask because many of those listed don’t indicate they’re specifically for puppies. Just checking!

Also – It’s a pretty comprehensive list. Any recommendations/experience with any of the brands/blends for a young puppy/giant breed such as a Newfie? One breeder told us she feeds her puppies Pro Pac. Obviously not on the list.

Want to do the right thing for my Newfie boy though would prefer to not have his food cost more than what I’m feeding my kids!!! 🙂 Again – Thank you all for the valuable information!

[DogFoodie]

Hi Kirsten,

Because yours is a large breed puppy, you should visit this thread and read some of the great information that Hound Dog Mom shares about large breed puppy nutrition and in particular, the need to feed them appropriate and controlled levels of Calcium. /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

Here’s HDM’s list of recommended foods for large breed puppies: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1. This list is the best place to start when choosing a food. It includes grain-inclusive, grain free and species appropriate raw like Jastech mentioned.

Another important thing to remember is to keep a large breed puppy lean (rolly poly puppies may be cute, but they’re not healthy) and avoid over-exercising him during his growth period.

Congrats on the new pup!

[theBCnut]

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/
Here it is.

[theBCnut]

I would totally disagree that it is too much protein or too rich, at this point. The reason I say this is because there have been so many people that have reported vomitting and diarrhea on BB just lately, even with dogs that have been on BB for a long time.

Have you seen the thread on Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition? You should at least read the first few pages of it.

Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit or their LID Turkey are fine for large breed puppies. And Annamaet has a couple formulas that are good, too. Hound Dog Mom has a list on that thread that has foods with appropriate calcium levels for large breed puppies. The newest list is on page 15. Some formulas that are labled for large breed puppies are too high.

[Duke The Boxer]

So a little update here.. I went ahead and purchased the B2B Open Range formula which is the red meat formula. Duke has been doing great on the food. So far his stools have been the most firm they have been since he was on nutrisource chicken and rice large breed formula. Im very happy with the ratio of 71% animal proteins and 29% fruits and plant proteins, as it is a dog food with a good amount of animal protein (not the most animal based protein but good enough). Duke absolutely loves the flavor of the dog food which i suspect has to due with all the organs in the dog food. I definitely recommend anyone looking for a high protein and low carb dry kibble to really consider B2B Open Range.
Now for the next bag of dog food?! Who knows?! So many to choose from hahaha.

[EBM]

Our 19 week old English Cream was prescribed Royal Canin GI Puppy by our vet after three negative parasite samples and repeatedly worsening loose stools. He was on Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy. He switched fine to the new food but it is prescription and expensive and I really think he couldn’t tolerate something in the Blue Buffalo. I have read various positions on the cause stemming from too high a protein to a diet too rich. After researching, I am slowly swithcing to Fromm Gold Large Breed. Any thoughts comments or feedback! Just want to feed him a high quality food but don’t wat to feed presecription if it was only an allergy or sensititvity. Thanks !

[Hazenhart]

Hello.
Looking for some advice:

11.5 week old great dane puppy.
29 lbs

I have been feeding him Nature’s Variety Prarie Large Breed Puppy kibble since about 7 weeks old (currently eating about 3.75 cups per day).
Everything was fine, then a couple weeks ago he started getting frequent pudding poops. Behavior has been fine, eating fine, drinking fine. No signs of dehydration. After about a week we had the vet look at him. He took a stool sample and put him on a 5 day course of Panacur and probiotics. Stool sample came back negative, but after 4 days his stools firmed up and were great–for 24 hours. Now we’re back to pudding.

I don’t want to switch up his diet prematurely (seems like folks sometime aggravate things by switching too much).
Ideas?

Thanks.

[lilyh]

Does storing dog food in a cold environment negatively affect the food?

We have been keeping our kibble in our garage, top flopped over, and sealed with a packaging clip at the top. Recently we were feeding our English Setter puppy Nutrisource Large Breed, then transitioning to Dr. Tim’s. She’s been a voracious eater, but after a few weeks she just starting poking at it. I thought maybe the food had gone bad because a time or two the clip was not put back on the bag. So I dumped the dog food, went to the pet store and bought small bags of Nutrisource (to have a familiar to transition from) and Earthborn Meadow Feast. For 5 days she was back to chow hound ways, but today she is back to picking at her food.

As training treats we give her chicken, and I do stuff her kong with peanut butter, pumpkin. Could it be that she is just spoiled by the non-kibble?

Appreciate any insight you might have.

[Jenmarlew]

Aha. Ok. Thanks!

[theBCnut]

The slower maturing the longer I’d give it, so 8 to 10 months is probably a safer number.

[Jenmarlew]

I might have answered my own question. The Lauten article HDM included in the first post says 6 months is when puppies can regulate calcium uptake. Can anyone confirm?

[Jenmarlew]

Hi. I’m wondering the same thing. When is my puppy old enough that I don’t have to worry so much about calcium levels in his diet?

[Jazz Lover]

New to the forum!

I’ve been researching to identify a better food for our 9mo old blk lab, Jazz. He’s been on Euk Large Breed Puppy. This mo he had elbow surgery for Dysplasia FCP (& neuter 🙁 ). We were so upset. After seeing your recommend food list, my question is shall I switch him to an “all life stages” or keep him on a large breed puppy food until… when? If all stages, would I look for Large Breed “All Stages?”

When will he be full grown (male lab)? He is probably 75lbs since surgery.

Since surgery I’ve begun using Grizzly Salmon Oil Omega 3. I’m learning to identify better treats & seeking other necessary supplements highly recommends for such a young pup. Open to suggestions!

Thank you HDM for your efforts in compiling the list!

[lmnordrum]

Thank you Lablubber for your very informative post. I only have a puppy, Giant Schnauzer, on Wellness Core Puppy and she is doing well and no health problems and I’m glad I found this list so I can start her off ‘right’. I discussed raw with my vet (old country vet w/40 yrs exp, does large animals and small) and his concern is just what you say: salmonella and other bacterias. The food issue drives me crazy too. Before this whole kibble industry, people just fed their dogs what they ate.

I sure hope that Augie gets better though. Its like having a kid: you want to do the right thing and when it doesn’t work its just devastating.

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Every vet I have been to with all my dogs recommends Royal Canin Feed for dogs. And I have to be straight up honest with you too…..

This whole dog food issue is driving me absolutely nuts but I study it like a beast and I read and read and read and this is what I have concluded in all that I have read, been advised to do, and from what I have seen first hand in all of….

The Raw diet, although I know that it can be really great and it does seem like the most natural thing to do for your dog. But this is also from my studies of it, know to be a fact……

First the whole reason you are reading this anyway because you like myself, want only the best for your dog and so you want to be absolutely sure your dog or pup is getting everything it needs and requires in it’s diet… And so yes….If you use absolute extreme caution in prep and storage and you get all of your ingredients from a for sure, organic farm and ranch. And if you want to be absolutely sure that your supplementation is correct that you are going to use. the only for sure way that you can do that is by having bloodwork ran on your dog and having a nutritional spectro analysis ran to know the correct amounts of each vitamin and nutrient is being met in his diet and then no one can argue that the Raw diet is a great way to go.

But… the big But word….. The downside to the Raw diet has been, that due to prep work and non organic ingredients being used and this has happen to people who are OCD about it…But it has led to some very serious bacteia infections in people’s dogs and has even caused death in dogs due to the bacteria present in raw food. This bacteria has caused dog’s intestines to actually sluff off the inner lining and pass blood so bad that if they made it through the IV treatment and antibiotics regime then they were fine or otherwise dwindled down and they died.

So the downfall to raw is obviously, the chance you take in that happing, the expense of the spectro analysis, not to mention food cost involved…

Then the super high tech foods that everyone reccomends… The stuff like Blue, Innova, Dr. whatever and all that list on here… They all have high cost, but at least because they were processed in a high temp. situation…The biggest majority of all bacteria has been removed from it. So that is not a worry…. But then you read and know people who have fed that feed and some dogs have bleeding problems associated with it because of the high protien involved in it… Or whatever causes it….. It is not a rarity either….

Then a big push by folks for this food is they say that is like the food that animals in the wild eat and so let me say this as a country boy to as well as being an avid predator hunter, I have never in my life, seen wolves nor coyotes…..Ever eating carrots, blueberries, potatoes, kelp, etc. So in reality then….What is a person to think???? Not like a wild animals diet at all….

Then you come to the more old tried and true….The per say….Puppy Chows and High Pros and the Iams and Eukanubas etc. and yet more and more people are having their precious dogs come down with all different kinds of cancers and tumors. And for me being an avid reader of medical stuff in humans and from all I have read about Monsanto and the genetically mutated corn and the serious ill effects and cancer causing issues they have had in humans because of it….Then it also makes me extremely leery of any pet product containing any corn or corn by product….But yet, even myself I had to learn from folks on here of the ill effects of non-regulated calcium uptake in puppies, especially large breeds and yet I have never raised a lab pup that I didn’t put milk replacer or powdered milk in their food when I feed them…

So needless to say…..It is a very scary world out there for all of us as pet owners…. But one thing I have learned about some vets is…. They like doctors will treat a dog, until you say this is enough and I have been there some times before myself. So one thing I have learned and also saved many a dog with even those who had been left to die of parvo is if you are truly serious about your dog as much as most of us are on here. I will share my country boy diet that has saved quite a few dogs, exhibiting the very same symptoms your dogs is showing…

Go to a local rancher/farmer who raises ducks or chickens near you and and one who lets them fend for them selves for feed and buy them. Then butcher the ducks and boil them down to pieces and I mean everything….the livers and gizzrds and hearts and then add cooked organic brown rice or even quinoa and feed your dog exclusively on that for at least several weeks or even a month after all signs of bleeding ceases to exist in his stool…. As well as, only allow him or her to drink only alkaline water. If you have to buy it….I know Fiji water is akaline but it is also fairly expensive.

Then I would also add 3 capsules of tumeric or curcumin which is the same thing, to his food daily everday and continue that from there on cutting back to one to two capsules a day after he is healed. You can get this at any health food store or pharmacy…

If your dog were showing any signs of weight loss or delapidation in any ways whatsoever…. As I did in the ones that had parvo, I would also recommend adding acidophilus to his food as well as Goat colostrum and I can tell you, your dog’s bleeding should stop within a 4 to 5 days and he will be well on his way to recovery although I would recommend keeping him on the chicken and brown rice regime for at least a month and then begin to transition over to what ever food you want him to be on from then on, always watching closely for any recurrance of bllod in the stool.

Myself I would use the Goat Colostrum and Acidophilus anyway if money permitted regardless of weight loss or not…. But anyway if you couldand if you really wanted to recharge his system as well…. I would keep him on the acidophilus, tumeric and Goat colostrum for at least several months afterwards and then I would also start adding high flora yogurt to his feed when the bleeding stops…

I am not an expert by any means, but I am just a country boy who loves animals and refuses to watch any animal die if I can stop it. I will be honest…. I have lost faith in the medical field when it comes to humans and am quickly losing for the veterinarian field as well due to drug manufacturers and feed manufacturers getting in some of their pockets….

Yiour are well blessed if you have a vet who is in it for all of the right reasons… Very few and very far between… The love of money is the root of all evil and yes it has creeped down into the Vet world as well.

[kms]

Hi all! Just wanted to post an update on Augie and really need advice again. My vet has done all he can do to get rid of the Campylobactor bacteria. First, he put Augie on Marbofloxcin – which I opposed after reading about adverse effects on large breed puppies. After 4 days with no change in stool, we switched to Clavamox. Did 1 round. The stool is the same (1st part is formed, 2nd part runny). So vet sent us to an Internal Medicine specialist. Specialist did exam and sent bloodwork to Texas A&M for a CBC panel, profile and GI Panel. All bloodwork normal – TLI and Folate were fine and no pancreatic inflammation. Specialist thinks this is likely Inflammatory Bowel Disease. She suggested doing a biopsy of the large and small intestine (either a Biopsy via surgery or Biopsy via Endoscope). I asked if we could try elimination or hypoallergenic diet to see if the IBD is due to diet and she said “since he’s not losing weight, I’d be ok with that – but wouldn’t know anything for couple months”. If we go that route, she recommends Royal Canin HP (hydrolyzed protein; hypoallergenic, soy based protein). I asked about treating IBD with RAW or at least with a more premium limited ingredient food and she had no experience/opinion there.

I worry about him being only 7 mo old and having to go through all this. Can pups really have true IBD this young? My gut is telling me to change the diet, but I could end up spending 2-3 more months on something that doesn’t pan out for him. What do you think? Has anyone ever fed Royal Canin HP for GI issues? It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the first ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Thanks for any advice or insight….

[Shasta220]

I concure A.Sandy for sure! The more you can look around and compare prices, the better chance you have at being successful with your dogs’ nutrition! I would go to feed stores, Walmart, and Fred Meyers (basically the same as Walmart, just a bit more of “premium” products for everything)…no PetCo/petsmart around here. I would just sit and read ingredient labels and price take. Then I’d make a mental note of brands that really stuck out to me (ones that had the perfect balance of price and ingredients), then I’d go home and research the brands out. I ended up w a 3 star food that we only had to spend about $20/month on (we had 3 dogs at time…they weighed between 45 and 90lb. Now the 90lb guy passed tragically, so we ended up w a 40lb rescue with newly discovered severe social/anxiety problems. Woot woot…no agility for him. UGH!)

[Shasta220]

NutriSource GF is about the only GF food I’ve seen the results of. Two dogs that I take care of occasionally have that brand. (They get the chicken and the lamb formulas) They’re 12 and 13yrs old, and doing incredible! (It makes me chuckle still…mixed breeds really do seem to be healthier than the purebreds. The 12y.o. Is a purebred ex-champ smooth collie, and she is most definitely acting her age. The 13y.o. Is lab/border collie and she acts no older than 8, she’s a spaz!)

Anyway, that’s about all I know of GF – I tried Paramount GF one time (reviews for the brand aren’t on this site yet…I honestly know very little about that company. I bought the food at a liquidation store once), and surprisingly the dogs did well on it. A friend looked over the ingredients and pointed out some “no-no’s” in it (I can’t remember what). It was about a dollar a pound, but like I say – it was at a liquidation store (I bought a 15lb bag of Wenaewe food there once for $15. I looked at the company’s website later, and found the same food for $45. Boy I got a steal!)

Everyone else has given good suggestions though… I don’t always think grain free is nessicarily better (unless, of course, the dogs have intolerances), because GF foods can trick you easily by using equally cheap fillers from potatoes, peas, and others. Many grains are much better for a dog than the potato amounts in GF foods.

Anyway, I hope you can find something that works for your wallet as well as the tummies, fur, skin, glossy eyes, and wiggly bottoms of your sweet doggies! =D

[A.Sandy]

I already knew that! I studied this field and have worked with dogs for more than a decade so.. yeah.

[theBCnut]

Well Joe
My story is that I was a vet tech. I worked for 14 years. I quit when I had my first child so I could raise my children myself. Sounds terribly sinister, doesn’t it.

You used Consumer Affairs website as proof that another food should not be fed, Joe. So why is it good enough proof when it backs up your claims, but not when it disagrees with you? Personally, I haven’t even read the site, I don’t think it constitutes proof of anything, but apparently you do. Then there are all the people that have come here over the past few months, that have complained about BB products. Finally, as I said, I worked for vets for 14 years, so as you may imagine, I have made friends of the vets I worked for, and the only food they have ever warned me away from was BB, because they had clients pets that developed vomitting and diarrhea on the food to the point that they were severely dehydrated.

And no, your not seeing a BB commercial does absolutely nothing to shoot down my statement about their advertising.

BTW, I’m sorry you can’t do anything about your gas, but most of us can, if we look for solutions.

So why did you feel a need to try to attack me, Joe? Does everybody have to like your food? If we aren’t all entitled to an opinion then I’m sorry, but you aren’t either. Grow up.

[InkedMarie]

GRamoin: it’s fine to switch, I would just go very slowly, over a week. I would also use a probiotic. As far as foods, it’s been said that grains aggravate joints so I’d suggest a grainfree food. Some easier on the wallet ones are dr Tim’s, Earthborn, hi Tek…..more expensive are Acana, Orijen, Natures Variety Instinct.

Good luck!

[joet]

TO *NATA**FROM JOET

1ST-just make the food is at least a 4 star food–from this site–
2-make sure it does not come from the west coast–
im sure **PATTY VAUGHN**can tell you why,she seems to be an expert on everything here-EXCEPT 1 THING PATTY–

her comments on blue buffalo–
you would think she works for a rival company or worked for them and got FIRED.
i live in new york—so you know patty–i have never seen a blue commercial–ever—so there goes your advertizing thing–

2-as far as *gas*–dogs get gas from many many things-cant be helped –as we also do–
3-but–vomit-diar—–give us the names of all the people you personally know that feed blue and have had this problem—-you cant -can you—

teddybear has been on blue for 7 years now—–yellow lab-pure bread—perfect health—-
my drummers little dog–5 years–no problem–
my sister-in-laws lab–7 years—no problem—–

so PATTY VAUGHN—
WHATS YOUR STORY—IM SURE WE ALL WOULD LIKE TO KNOW–SIGNED**JOE~T**

[joet]

TO—
-Ana Expert/pet nutrition advisor
@pupfacts
pupcatnutrition.com–

maybe you think i need help cause i said id kill for teddy–

OTHER THAN THAT–
WHAT I WROTE—– IS PURE FACT—

AND IF YOU DONT THINK SO—YOU NEED THE HELP–
YOUR MERRICK IDEA IS GOOD–MERRICK IS A 5 STAR FOOD LITTLE OR NO RECALLS AS BLUE IS—–

PEOPLE–READ CAREFULLY PLEASE;

WHEN FEEDING AND FINDING A FOOD FOR YOUR PET–DOG–
YOU 1ST CHECK THE RATING-MUST BE NO LESS THAN 3 STARS OR YOUR KILLING YOUR DOG.
3 STAR IS CHEAP-$1.49 APROX-WET–4 SRAR–OVER $2-WET–5 STAR-$2.50 TO 3 PLUS AT SOME PLACES—-PETCO IS MOST EXPENSIVE DONT GO THERE.
2ND–GO TO RECALL SITES—
3RD–IF THERE ON THAT LIST FOR THEIR WET OR DRY DOG FOODS,AND DEPENDING ON HOW MANY TIMES AND WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO DOGS ON THIS FOOD OR MANUFACTURES FOOD–

THEN–YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION—
AND FOR YOUR PEST SAKE–
***IT BETTER BE THE RITE ONE**

DOES THAT SOUND LOGICAL TO YOU EXPERT!

[GRamoin]

I am trying to learn more about proper dog foods for my just turned 11 year old female yellow lab. She is about 70 lbs in really good shape and only has some joint stiffness occasionally showing. I have fed her IAM’s dry dog food forever.

2 Questions for someone to please assist if possible :
– Is it beneficial or OK to change now after using IAM’s so long ?

– What would be a great food recommendation if changing now is ok, & what is rotation strategy for and what would the rotation products recommendation be ?

Thanks so much for any input !!

[Shasta220]

I completely understand your need for economical nutrition! We have about the same problem… 3 years ago we had just two dogs and 5 cats. Now? 2 Betta fish, 3 cats, 3 dogs (aka PIGS with how much they eat…), 8 chickens, 2 ducks, a miniature horse, and a 600lb puppy dog (aka Iggy the Holstein steer…he doesn’t know he’s a cow)

We obviously cannot splurge that much on buying ultra quality food (our lab has allergies though, so she can’t have foods full of wheat/corn).

The most economical and quality foods I’ve found so far are Nutra Nuggets (I ONLY get the lamb n rice formula, since lamb meal is the first ingredient instead of corona or byproduct), Diamond naturals, and Kirkland signature. Kirkland is 4star food, about 25$ for 40lb, and can be found at Costo (possibly you could find it online?). Diamond naturals is very similar to Kirkland, but it’s 40$ (I get the Large Breed 60+ since it has glucosamine and chondroitin to help their joints). Nutra nuggets is the same price as Kirkland, but only 3-star.

To make the food last a bit longer, possibly try adding your own nutritious “fillers” such as sweet potatoes (baked), carrots, apples, and meat (cooked or raw). Possibly try to find a local butcher and see if you can buy meat-scraps, or meat that’s slightly expired (just past human-consumption, but 100% safe for dogs). I know a girl who was able to buy virtually unlimited amounts of expired meat for her 5 dogs and 8 cats… It was, I think, $.50 per lb, which is a serious steal! Yep, she gives her lucky pups 100% raw, lol!

I hope you’ve found something that’s good for the dogs and your wallet. Also, try not to get “lite” foods (I don’t ever get the lite ones…not even if it’s a quality brand), you may find yourself feeding more. Switching to a food that’s even a little better than Beneful might actually be cheaper, since you may feed less.

When I owned my 90lb APBT mix, he ate 9c of Dog Chow daily (and he was super thin, too!). We switched him over to Nutra Nuggets, and he went down to about 2c daily without gaining/losing ANY weight. My biggest tip is this: even if you can’t afford much, at least make sure meat is the #1 ingredient (meal is fine, avoid by product if you can…).

[goldenmamaX2]

thank you all for your idea’s and recommendations! much appreciated!

[A.Sandy]

Try something all life stages, that way you don’t have to be finding diffrent large breed foods. I agree with pugmomsandy try whole earth farms they are made by merrick which i highly recommend, or i always say try a feed store always cheaper! because at petco,petsmart it does not get cheaper,forget blue buffalo they’ll take an arm and a leg. check out the review section and research prices. Oh and Joet you need help!

-Ana Expert/pet nutrition advisor
@pupfacts
pupcatnutrition.com

[mswrobbie]

Again, thanks all!! We are on our way to Rural King to buy a Diamond Naturals four star food; a 40$ bag is 29.99$ and they have a large breed one for $31. something. And I am going to keep reading so that if I am using the dry dog food, I can add some healthy home made food to it. Thanks thanks and my dogs thank you too!! Hope they will eat this!! I have heard that you should slowly change the diet over and maybe give 1/2 of the old food with 1/2 of the new food for a while??? That true?? Thanks much!!!

[Scruffy312052]

I can’t address the type of food for large breed any more than I can for miniature breeds but I can tell you what I started doing about a year and a half ago.

I have 30 dogs. Most are American Eskimos and Long haired Dachshunds however, due to a couple of segregation errors on our part we also have several Cold Franks added to our mix. While the AKC refuses to recognize this cross as a specific breed we love them just as much as our Blue Bloods.

To address your query: I was a very strong proponent of Dry food. I’ve tried many and varied brands with a minimum rating of 3 stars. Over the years several of our pets had been plagued with a myriad of health problems: Bad Breath, loose stool, fur falling out, fleas, parasites etc… etc… before I researched K-9 Dietary needs. I started with consulting the three of our most trusted vets in our area as well as several trips to the University Of Georgia College Of Veterinary Medicine.

Oddly enough, their knowledge on the subject was nothing more than suggesting a variety of name brand foods and supplements. It was, quite frankly, a costly “hit or miss” solution with little or no improvement to the health of our pack.

I educated myself by reading hundreds of articles and forums such as this (Rudy’s). As a result, I concocted and changed their diet to a home remedy.

In less than four months there was a marked improvement. Coccidian protozoa; gone. Their breath was no longer foul smelling. No more signs of any type of worms wiggling in their stool. Their fur started growing back soft and fluffy and much to our relief, there are few if any fleas. As a bonus I cut our rather large K-9 pantry expense by 33%. I did, however, add an extra 30 minutes to my time while preparing their meal (mind you, I am feeding thirty).

NOTE: Should you consider my solution it is strongly advised that you consult your Vet First. Two of the ingredients I use may be challenged by some (but not all) authorities. *These two are: “Plug Chewing Tobacco and Garlic.”

Here is my Remedy: In a crock pot I cook 3 pounds of chicken backs and necks and one pound of chicken liver for a minimum of 8 hours on Auto. This causes the bones to break down to become malleable and easily digested. Thirty minutes before serving add 2.5 pounds of frozen or fresh mixed vegetables (make sure there is no or little corn) i.e. peas, lima beans, carrots, green beans and stir.

In a blender add two heaping tablespoons of minced garlic, 1/2 ounce of plug tobacco and one cup of broth from the crockpot. Blend on high for thirty to sixty seconds or until the tobacco is cut up into pieces that look almost granular. Add this to the crock pot and stir several times. Turn the crock pot off and let stand for thirty minutes.

Whatever type of dry food you are using reduce the serving amount by 60% and mix this on a 2 To 1 ratio of crock pot mix to dry food. Considering you have five dogs, freeze the rest of the crock pot mixture in pouches that serve five. Taking into account the size of my kennels, I obviously have no leftovers.

I have been feeding this mixture to my kennels for almost 1 ½ years and my pack has never looked or responded healthier.

* It is argued that tobacco will kill Coccidian protozoa and the Garlic will repel the fleas. I use these two ingredients only twice a month so you will need to reduce the amount to a proper ratio so as not to give your pets too much.

The benefits: less trips to the vet, more active adults, fresher breath, no more de-wormer medicine to buy (which, by the way, is not a healthy substance for your pet) less, if any flea remedies and coats full of luster. If you like, you can also drop to a one star dry food considering it is primarily used as filler.

[Sue’s Zoo]

So here’s the first order I’m planning to put in on MPC. Any feedback before I purchase? Feeding a 90lb 7 month old and a 40 pound 3 month old. Hoping this lasts at least a month after adding some chicken backs and veggie mix, etc. Planning to start looking for less expensive local options for at least some products but going an easier, faster route to get started.

Box of Turkey Necks-30 LB.

Turkey Hearts-3 LB.

Chicken Hearts-2 LB.

Chicken Feet

Chicken Liver-1 LB.

Green Beef Tripe Strips/Chunks-5 LB.

Ground Beef Organ Mix-2 LB.

Beef Trachea

Ground Beef Trachea & Gullet-2 LB.

5 LB. Ground Whole YOUNG Beef

Ground Chicken without Giblets-2 LB.

All-Meat Ground Deer-10 LB.

Total: $419.75

Thanks.

[pugmomsandy]

Nutrisource runs about $49 for their large bag. There is also the new Whole Earth Farms grain free which is rolling out to Petco or Petsmart for $40.

[joet]

nothing personal but there are many informed pet owners on this site which i cant comprehend——-chester and teddybear——-
chester had 10 years—-he died naturally
TEDDYBEAR–MY BABY–7 YEARS OLD NOW–WILL POST PBOTO—
there are only a Few foods you should feed your dog—–
1–5-star if you can afford it
2-4-star–
3–nothing less than 4-star –use this site—-
4–blue buffalo—-CHEESTER AND TEDDY-BOTH—-
5–ALL FOODS CREATE GAS—
6–BLUES REP IS THE BEST OUT THERE–CHECK IT–
7-TEDDY GETS THEIR 5 STAR RATED BLUE–FROM THIS SITE—–
8–NO DIRREAR–ABSOLUTLY NO VOMMITING—
9-I AM NOT A REP FROM ANOTHER COMPANY LYING TO YOU—I AM TEDDYS OWNER AND HIS DAD—-
10–ID KILL FOR TEDDY IF I HAD TO—-
11-I KNOW BLUE IS THE BEST TO GIVE HIM DUE TO THEIR REP WHICH IS OUTSTANDING–AS OPPOSED TO ALL OTHER TOP SHELF BRANDS—-
12—-SO TAKE THIS FOR WHAT ITS WORTH——
JOE T AND TEDDYBEAR.

[theBCnut]

I don’t have any suggestions for you other than I wouldn’t feed Bil-Jac and read the BB reviews. A lot of people have been having issues with vomitting and diarrhea lately in their dogs on BB, even dogs that have been on it for a while.

I am boosting this to the top where more will see it.

[goldenmamaX2]

Hello,
I’m new here and would like to get suggestions for food for my 2 goldens. They are 8 months old and have had them since they were 8 weeks. The breeder had them on Nutro large breed puppy and at 6 months I switched them to Nutro large breed adult. They are about 73lbs each, (which is what the parents were 70-80lbs). I’d like to get them off of large breed dog food and switch them to a grain free dog food. My only 2 criteria for that is I must be able to get it from petsmart and it cant cost more than $50/ 35lb.bag. So, I’m looking for an affordable decent dog food. We are currently going through about 8 cups a day which is about a bag of food every 2 weeks. I have been considering bil-jack and blue buffalo which are about $55/bag. Thanks for you suggestions!

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks again Patty!

One other question…does anyone know if HDM evaluated Bravo! Raw food? It’s not on her list (and it is a 5-star rated food) but I’m unsure if that’s because it didn’t meet criteria, wasn’t checked or weren’t responsive when questioned. Though I am planning to eventually DIY I’m looking for a reasonably priced alternative in the meantime.

Again, can’t thank everyone enough for the advice on this forum.

[theBCnut]

Especially while they are growing, they need to be kept thin! Yes, it is hard to break old habits and change old ways of thinking.

[Lablubber]

Thank you Patty…..Will do. You know the old way of thinking was always bigger is better and chubbier in babies as well as pups is always better too. Need to learn to not think that way anymore.

[theBCnut]

Hi Sue, the recipe’s HDM posted are from when her youngest was still a pup, so they are for puppies.

Hi Lablubber, the reason for watching calcium is because too much causes the joints to form too fast, also if the long bones grow too fast they but strain on the muscles which can alter the gait and cause more problems. You should always strive for slow steady growth in large breed dogs. Bigger is not better. Read the first page of this thread and look at the links HDM supplied.

[Lablubber]

I am a newby to all of this high tech dog food stuff but now that I am older and much wiser I read all I can about the well being of my pups…. I was the old way, dump milk or condensed milk into my puppy food to help them grow strong bones and prevent dysplasia then when they get older feed high pro to keep them muscled. but as I got older and wiser and had more time to read and started hearing more and more about canine cancer and the grain based feeds being considered as a culprit. I really started reading alot and looking for the best food available. I just bought a new puppy a yellow lab and only want the best for him but then just today I saw in an article on here that actually hinted or said that you can actually give a puppy too much calcium and I sure do not want to hurt this lab puppy in any way. but I thought I was doing what was best for him because of their size and higher than normal occurrance of dysplasia and so as always I have for the first year at least, added a scoop of milk replacer to my dog’s food bowl and along with it, I mixed it with warm water to make their food more appititizing and suppopsedly also helped build bones. So after reading these articles…. And also pleading stupidity with all of you for only wanting what is best for my dogs…. Is what I have been doing a bad thing for my dogs? Especially if it does not cause loose or runny stools? Because after reading articles on here, it seems like in these articles that they are saying that it actually causes more hip dysplasia and elbow displaslia? Is this correct? Because my vet has never caautioned against it and so believing the vet above my Holiday Inn Express Education in Veternarian Science, I sure would appreciate a good answer and explaination as to why, the extra calcium he gets by the milk replacer he gets in his food causes and even worst chance of dysplasia because I sure don’t want to hurt my puppy for anything? So if anyone can cite me or send me any articles on this or can tell me where to look. I would like to know. Also if anyone can tell me why I should not use Blue Wildness Lg. Breed Puppy Food for him or Blue Lg. Breed Puppy Chicken and Brown Rice Formula? Sorry to sound so stupid but as I said I was Puppy Chow, Hi Pro man all my life and thought I was doing good.

[Sue’s Zoo]

First, thank you so much HDM for taking time to respond and Patty for helping out. I guess I did realize the c:p ratio was still important but was hoping it might be somewhat automatic when feeding raw. And from your response it seems like that is the case IF I get the balance correct between organ, muscle/tissue, and bone. And there are several ways to accomplish that–grinds, RMBs, Tripe mixes, etc. I guess at this point I just want the simplest way to get started, which ideally would be someone saying: feed this, then this, etc. 🙂 while I read and re-read all your info and additional recommended resources to educate myself and become more confident in creating my own meals. I did see some of your info under raw feeding giving your dogs various diets over a period of time. I’m going to look at those more closely because I think it’s what I need to kickstart the program. I just wasn’t sure if those contained all the necessary nutrition for large breed PUPPIES (as well as adult dogs). So thanks again for your response.

I think I may start with MPC as I look for less expensive routes for the future. Considering what I pay for just doing half Primal (chicken, beef, rabbit and venison) plus top end kibble/canned (rotating Wellness CORE Puppy/Earthborn Coastal Catch/Halo Surf n Turf, plus a daily can of FROMM Gold rotating proteins), with these pups, I can’t imagine it’s going to be much more…I hope. And I’m going to get a freezer (checking CL today)

And lastly, for now, you mentioned books. I have the Ancestral Diet book. I’ve noticed Dr. Becker’s is recommended in several places so I plan to get it. Are you familiar with Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth MacDonald? Any others you could recommend to help me jump in quickly?

So happy to have found this site. I’m sure I’ll have many more questions over the next few months. Learning so much from you and some others. And I’m a skeptic so I don’t trust everything I read on the internet. But just by reading your posts it’s obvious you’ve done the research and know what you’re talking about.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sue’s Zoo –

Yes, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still important when feeding a homemade raw diet. When feeding a “grind” such as those sold by My Pet Carnivore there’s really no way of knowing the “exact” C:P ratio although it is assumed that it’s balanced. However, as we know, the concern with large breed puppies is not only that the C:P ratio is balanced but also that it remains relatively low. My suggestion (and what I did with my pups) would be to mix in about 25% green tripe with any grind that you feed (MPC does have a great grind called “Ground Beef Tripe Supermix” which is 50% green tripe/40% muscle meat, bone, organ/10% trachea and gullet which would be a good choice). Green tripe has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 but the levels of each mineral are relatively low (only about 0.3%) this way you can “lower” the overall ratio without the risk of throwing it off balance.

It’s also perfectly fine to start young pups on RMBs (it’s easiest to start small – chicken necks, etc.) but I would recommend feeding some muscle meat at each RMB meal. RMBs do have a balanced C:P ratio but it is very high (usually close to that upper 2:1 limit) so I would say feed about half as much muscle meat as you do RMB. So, for example, if you feed 8 oz. of chicken necks also feed 4 oz. of muscle meat.

As far as ordering – you’re going to be going through A LOT of meat with two large dogs. I currently have two female bloodhounds and we go through about 150 lbs. of meat per month. When I had my large male (who unfortunately passed last summer) we were going through closer to 250 lbs. per month. My suggestion – especially if you’re on a budget – would be to try and locate a wholesaler. I get my meat delivered right to my house by a wholesaler that sells to grocery stores and restaurants. They butcher all their own meat so they do have items like chicken backs, gizzard, hearts, organ meat, etc. and will deliver to kennels that order at least 300 lbs. at a time. You will likely have to place a large order if you go this route but if you invest in some freezers it’s worth it in the long run – I pay <$1 per pound for everything I get. The only meat I order outside of my wholesaler is green tripe and I get this from Hare Today – with the shipping it’s the most expensive thing my dogs get. You can often find good deals on used freezers on craig’s list or in the free trader.

Do you know how to create a balanced diet from scratch? There are some great books out there and also some pre-mixes if you’re not sure about what you’re doing.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks again Patty. I will continue to research in the meantime.

[theBCnut]

The quick answer is that yes you do still have to consider the calcium/phos ratio. Hound Dog Mom is the best one to answer your questions, but she is in school right now and I don’t know how crazy her school and work schedules are. I emailed her to let her know that you need help.

[Akari_32]

Which would you go for? The LID or the Wholesome Essentials?

Wholesome Essentials Puppy:
http://www.nutro.com/natural-dog-food/natural-choice-dog-food/dry/wholesome-essentials-puppy-food.aspx

-27% Protein
-16% Fat
-384 calories/cup

LID Puppy:
http://www.nutro.com/natural-dog-food/natural-choice-dog-food/dry/lid-puppy-food-lamb-and-rice.aspx

-26% Protein
-15% Fat
-393 calories/cup

Its either more fat and protein, and less calories, or less fat and protein and more calories. I think I’d rather go with the first, though. The calories aren’t that much different (neither really are the fat and protein, but you know)… What I really want is the Small Breed Puppy, but the largest bag it comes in is 8 pounds, and the rebate calls for 15 pound bags. Poo 🙁 http://www.nutro.com/natural-dog-food/natural-choice-dog-food/dry/small-breed-puppy-food.aspx

[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I’ve done quite a bit of research and really want to do it but still feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Originally posted on Feeding Large Breed Puppies topic)

[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I really want to do it but feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Maybe I need a topic for feeding non-commercial raw to large breed puppies!) Also posting under Raw Feeding topic.