[Lablubber]

Hi Crew

This is what I ordered to try the two either alternating or a mix of the two if he has no trouble with either of them… But I am introducing some cooked hamburger and ground turkey as well as spinach and going to buy some of the stuff you have to rehydrate to start with for the ease of carrying it with me.

One thing that I have had a hard time with was the a lot of the food has no no’s in it that you guys have told me about and I have read about as well such as Rosemary Extract or Oil- Seizures, Canola Oil-Cancer, Garlic – Anemia, and the first thing Rosemary which even rules out Wellness Core Puppy even though it was on the list and I was going to get it an Orijen both as alternates or as a mix. What is strange now is I am driving all of my friends nuts on what treats they buy their dogs and the food that they are feeding them as well.

One thing that is definitely noticable with Jess is that he has thinned down dramatically since coming off of Pupina LB Puppy Chow and he is very lean which I personally have a hard time getting use to because I have always had nice, big, rolly polly, lab puppies and I guess it was just fornate that I have never had one with a hip or shoulder or elbow issue, except with one of my old females, she was English Bred Lab and she was as big as a horse and in her old age she around 10 or 12 she did start having a slight limp in her rear end but that was it. So this this whole thing is a new ballgame for me….With keeping a LBP looking like a lean and mean greyhound instead of a huge big old lab like i always liked to see. Bigger has always been better to me, but what did I know.

I just have to get rid of a whole lot of old school ways and ways of thinking, that now have to be reprogrammed in me, but guess what? you guys were knowledgeable enough about this whole thing and the backed it up with factual evidence and because I love my dogs enough I had to take heed and listen and am glad I did… Because I would hate to see this pup or for that matter my either of my two Westies or Custard the Cat, developing cancer because of Monsanto’s genetically muted or altered grain, being in their food or them developing hip or shoulder or elbow issues because I was too stubborn to listen to you guys about Calcium issues with it’s uptake in LBP’s. So thank all of you for that as well for giving me a quick education in what is best for my dog and for making me dig deep on my own into what what all the leading specialists say about these things as well…

This is the kibble I ordered yesterday from Chewy to transition over to from Blue…

1 x Orijen Puppy Large Breed Grain-Free Dry Dog Food, 28.6-lb bag
1 x Annamaet Grain-Free Salcha Poulet Formula Dry Dog Food, 30-lb bag

Thanks Lablubber

[Newfs]

Hi,
mine near 11 monthly Newfoundland is fed Fromm Family Gold and very nicely grows on her (the last bag is Fromm Gold Adult Dog) . Unfortunately the fodder ends, and it is not known when will be the delivery 🙁 . On this period to the fly to change him the fodder. I know that these which to the pre-pond have a content of cereals, but these which are in Poland and do not have cereals, and have a suitable quantity of the limestone {calcium} are in cosmic prices. Please for the prompt which from fodders would be for him best:
– Enova ADULT Breeders BAG GRAIN-FREE SIMPLE!
Complete food without cereal with fresh chicken meat. It can be administered to dogs from 2 months to 7 years old.
food without grains
addition of fresh chicken meat (min. 20%)
contains glucosamine and chondroitin supplement
Ingredients: dried chicken meat (min. 23.3%), fresh chicken meat (min. 20%), potato flour, dried green peas, chicken fat, dried beet pulp, flaxseed, dried egg protein hydrolyzate, dried yeast, fish oil, dried carrots, dried tomato puree, dried seaweed, sodium chloride, glucosamine, chondroitin.
Analytical constituents: crude protein – 31.5%, oils and fats – 19.5%, crude fiber – 3,5%, crude ash – 6,5%, calcium – 1.25%, phosphorus – 0.95% , moisture – 10.0%.
Extras: antioxidants. Dietary supplements in 1 kg of feed: Vitamin A – 15,000 IU Vitamin D3 – 1200 IU Vitamin E – 150 mg Copper (as copper sulphate pentahydrate) – 10 mg.
Analysis
protein: 31.5%
fat: 19.5%
Crude fiber 3.5%
ash 6.5%
humidity 10.0%
omega – 6 2.7%
Chondroitin 250 mg / kg
calcium 1.25%
phosphorus 1.0% – 0.95%
copper 10 mg / kg
selenium 0.2 mg / kg
iodine 2 mg / kg
Vitamin A 15,000 IU / kg
Vitamin D3 1200 IU / kg
Vitamin E 150 IU / kg
Niacin 135 mg / kg
– http://www.enovapetfood.com/photoVideoGallery.aspx?cid=4685&mid=18465
– http://www.farmina.com/?q=en/content/product/chicken-pomegranade
– http://www.farmina.com/?q=en/content/product/nd-ancestral-dog-codfish-orange-31
– http://www.samsfield.com/adult-large
– http://www.samsfield.com/adult-salmon
– http://eshop.fitmin.cz/en/Products/Detail/FITMIN-11210921/Fitmin-dog-Solution-RabbitandRice-13kg
– http://eshop.fitmin.cz/en/Products/Detail/FITMIN-11210921/Fitmin-dog-Solution-SalmonandPotato-13kg
What do you feel about above-fodders ?

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
No one can tell you definitively what to feed your puppy. We all have opinions based on our limited or extensive research and experience. When we brought our first Golden home, we fed puppy food – I don’t remember exactly what but it was easily available in the commissary so probably just junk. She required double-hip surgery before she was two.

When we decided to add another Golden – Mystery, I spent two months researching large breed nutrition, even before we decided on him. I read every article that HDM has conveniently posted on page one here (though I found them independent of this site), created my own table of foods, listing proteins, fats, calcium/phosphorus ratios/percentages, grains/no grains and so on. Based on that initial research I chose a food. I continued my research, signed up for newsletters, magazines, etc., and eventually chose a different food. As my research continued, I switched my cats to better foods as well. And I continue researching ways to feed my babies the best ways possible.

I appreciate so much all the advice I get from everyone in the DogFoodAdvisor forums, but the decision to purchase food A or food B is ultimately mine. Any suggestions from anyone are not taken blindly – I still go to the manufacturer’s website, look at their ingredients, lookup an ingredient I’m not familiar with, check to make sure there are no known controversies or issues with those ingredients (for example: the link between rosemary extract and seizures in humans, canola oil and cancer, synthetic vs. natural supplement sources), where they come from, how they’re processed, what temp they’re cooked at. All of this is taken into account before I purchase anything.

Now, I understand if you don’t have that kind of time. But you’re here for a reason – you want to feed your dog the best that you possibly can (which is why you’re considering raw!). So, find a just bit of time to look at some of the kibble recommendations that folks have made. I haven’t seen anyone say that Purina or Iams or Science Diet or Royal Canin or Blue are acceptable foods so the recommendations you do find here are all going to be good to excellent choices. I’ve stated my preference a number of times – Orijen, but that doesn’t make Earthborn or Wellness or Canine Caviar bad foods. Open up a few separate browser windows and do a side-by-side comparison to see what you think is best, check Chewy.com prices and you’ll make the right decision for you and your pup.

Now, if you’re wanting to find out more about raw, there’s plenty of information here – I’m already smarter about feeding Mystery raw for the time I’ve spent asking questions and reading responses. But I’ve also signed up for a weekend-long web conference being hosted by DogsNaturallyMagazine.com at the end of this month called Raw Roundup. Experts in the field will be presenting any number of topics on feeding raw and I have started a list of questions to ask in case they are not addressed during the sessions.

You can do this!

[BernerdAd]

Dear Lablubber:

If you do not mind the price — Canine Caviar Open Sky – (grain free) – Order it from Chewy.com. If you want to make sure it says the absolute fresh order two 12 lbs bags.
Shipping is free and no tax for most states. It is rated 4.5 and on the list for Large Breed Puppy.

/dog-food-reviews/canine-caviar-grain-free/

I have bernese mountain dogs — and some of the top breeders in the country use this brand – as I have polled them.

[Shasta220]

Leah, that is wonderful you have her heeling! It makes me so sad to see all these dogs on walks, and the dogs are way ahead – being the pack leaders. Most of the time, it’s these very unstable, hyperactive, insane, and fearful dogs too. I also smiled when I saw that she focuses on “getting there”. This is great! A pack walk is about harmony, perfect communication, and the destination. The dog’s only mission is to follow you and focus on where she’s going.

I was going to suggest herding as well, if she has some sort of herding breed in her, then you should definitely try to research out how to teach a dog to move animals. Even if you don’t know how to train her, just letting her chase around a sheep herd would be great! My boy is not allowed to mess with our cow or chickens (and the pony completely ignores him, haha). I decided once to put him on a lead and let him attempt to herd the hens. I was expecting his usual – lunging, snapping, and grabbing onto them. I was really impressed though! He wasn’t sure /how/ to move them as a group, but he knew he was just supposed to follow them slowly. He never bit them, even when given the chance. When he got to the rooster, I’ll admit they got into a scuffle, haha! So now he can’t herd the chickens, since the rooster will attack him the instant he goes in there!

And if you can’t access a herd of animals consistently, look into teaching her the sport of “Treiball”, it’s basically herding/moving large medicine balls around. I’m sure tutorials are online.

Yes, I like to call my boy’s barking/biting “fear-anxiety” driven aggression. I realized it’s not /true/ aggression, because when he was offered to sniff the back end of a new dog, he was content just sniffing. He’d nip at the dog’s face, but if he was truly aggressive, he would have grabbed a leg or something… I find dogs have their fight-or-flight instinct when nervous. My boy doesn’t seem to understand “flight,” as he nervously lunges at anything loud, moving, or otherwise scary.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Duke the Boxer posted this in the LBP topic:
‘The way HDM calculated the percentages of the calcium is from usuing this formula
1)Multiply calcium% by 1000g. That gives you the grams of calcium/kg
2)Divide the grams of calcium/kg by the kcal/kg for the food. That gives you the grams of calcium/kcal.
3)Multiply the grams of calcium/kcal by 1000/1000. That gives you grams of calcium/1000kcal.

Ive calculated food that say the max calcium is 1.5% but after the calculations the food was over the 3.5g of calcium per 1000kcal’

This is exactly why I’m still so uncomfortable feeding raw to my large breed pups! The whole point it doing it is to give them the best nutrition but if I screw up the calcium/phosphorus ratio etc I’ve just caused a problem that could be serious. And it seems fairly complicated to get it right. I’ve used a couple of books that are helpful but I can’t ask specific questions. This forum has helped tremendously but I’m still so insecure about it. Looking forward to the Raw Feeding Web Conference next weekend.

In the meantime does anyone know a good place to get nutritional values for various meats that include the bone, as well as green tripe etc? I found a website that I can use to add ingredients and get total values but, of course, the only items already in the database do not contain bone, etc. There’s a small fee if you want to do more than 3 recipes but if it help me get this right, it’s worth it :).

[Sharon Buchanan]

jewels ~
The reason Wellness’s LBP formula is not on the list is because the list only includes grain-free formulas.

If you’re going to feed Wellness, their grain inclusive LBP food claims a min/max calcium of 1.1/1.5% with no less that 26% protein. Their Core, grain free recipe for puppies (non-specific of target size), claims no more than 1.5% calcium and no less than 36% protein. Since the max calcium is the same, it’s probably safe to assume the Core Puppy formula will be alright to feed a LBP.

At seven months old, you could move your poodle to the Core Large Breed Adult formula which has a max calcium of 2% and minimum 34% protein. And since the ingredients are essentially the same for the Core Puppy and Core LBA, either recipe would be fine at this point though, if my only choice was Wellness, I would keep a seven month old on the puppy formula at least a few more months.

If your puppy continues to have loose stools and there is no medical reason for it, you might try adding a tablespoon of plain pumpkin to his food – don’t use pie filling, until his stools normalize. Make sure he’s not outside eating wild mushrooms, bunny poop or turkey poop or any other critter poop if you live in a rural area.

[oknisha2008]

Hii,

I totally agree with the above thread. Being in India we do not have much medical assistance for pups with knuckling over. If they gain weight all of a sudden you this problem . Here is what we did with our pup last week.My heart bled as he was knuckling and unable to walk literally. He is a large breed Indian royal breed called Rajapalayam. We did a casting at home using a toilet roll card board . He was first wrapped in cotton and then the cardboard roll which was slit on one side was put with the cut portion facing inwards and bandaged him and wound with a paper tape to give more strength. He is absolutely normal since Sunday. We have decided to keep him again on cast for three more days to give him more strength.. Trust me catch him young. I am attaching the link to see how he was and how he is running around with the cast.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203285081473095&set=a.1346764434453.51249.1391572440&type=1&theater

[Sharon Buchanan]

loobija and vaarde ~
You need to read the articles that HDM has posted on page one of this thread. If you’re going to feed dry to your large breed puppies, you need to be feeding a low calcium/phosphorus kibble. Those articles, will tell you why. If you don’t want to read all of them, at least read Dr. Susan Lauter’s paper (#1), Dr. Henry Baker’s paper (#3 on the list), as well as Dr. Karen Becker’s article and watch her video (#5).

HDM also posted a list of Large Breed Puppy food here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit, to make it easy for you to research the best LBP food for your dog (and wallet). You can also Google Large Breed Puppy Food to find more. Your puppy is worth a little bit of homework.

Look for a food that has a minimum calcium content of .8% with a maximum around 1.2% (and don’t get hung up on AAFCO standards for calcium – they’re still behind the power curve when it comes to LBP nutrition). HDM’s list only provides minimum calcium content, you’ll need to go to the manufacture’s website to see if they list the maximum – some don’t, call them if you’re considering their food.

vaarde – Dr. Clauder’s adult food for LB “junior” dogs contains maize (corn), corn meal, rice, beet pulp, powdered egg, mussel powder. Filler grains, sugars and in the case of those two powders, nothing but dust. They also use sodium selenite as a source of selenium when they could be using a natural source – selenium yeast. Compare those ingredients with NRG Maxim for large breeds, or Canine Caviar, or…

loobija – you have a puppy, not an adult dog. Do not feed your LBP adult dog food and be very careful about feeding your puppy any “all life stages” food as well. Please read those articles. There is a reason why you need to select a formula designed specifically for large breed puppies. I do not like Authority’s LBP formula for some of the same reasons I don’t like Dr. Clauder’s and their minimum calcium is 1.3% when that is higher than what I would consider as a maximum amount.

Personally, having read all the articles that HDM posted links to – and I found them independent of this fantastic forum, (be sure to thank her for making your research easier), I believe the closer you can stay to .8% calcium the better. LBP kibble formulas will have the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio (1.2:1).

Look for foods that have named meat “meals” (chicken meal, salmon meal, etc.) in many of the first five ingredients as possible. Avoid unnamed anything (meat meal, fish meal, poultry-by-product), grains and fillers (wheat, corn, glutens), and sugars and starches (beets, potatoes). Try to find foods with natural supplements and no preservatives. If you don’t don’t what an ingredient is, look it up. For example: menadione sodium bisulfite complex (synthetic vs. natural Vit K), sodium selenite (vs. selenium yeast).

Kibble is a mine field. Make sure you subscribe to DogFoodAdvisor’s recall alerts: /dog-food-recall-alerts/. You can also find a wealth of information regarding pet food manufacturing practices (what they’re doing right, mostly wrong, how the FDA and the AAFCO really aren’t concerned about what goes into your pet food, recalls, etc.), at truthaboutpetfood.com.

Finally, I would recommend you read just the few pages that have been started in the forums here on feeding raw to large breed puppies: /forums/topic/feeding-raw-non-commercial-to-large-breed-puppies/page/2/#post-33708.

[Sue’s Zoo]

So I’ve been doing this for about 2-1/2 weeks now and I’m still concerned that I’m not balancing the calcium/phosphorus ratio for my large breed pups. Trying to follow (as closely as possible) a couple of HDMs meal plans from early in this topic but at various times I’m substituting which makes me uncomfortable. Anyway, one question I have, after a lot of reading, etc., particularly Dr. Becker’s book, is whether or not I’m following the earlier recipes correctly. HDM lists a morning mix, she divides between three dogs. Is it just the meat that is divided or the whole thing? The reason I ask is that the veggie mix is quite a bit lower than Dr. Becker’s suggested diets if I divide one cup between 3 dogs per day. So is it one cup per dog per day? And if that’s true for veggies, what about other supplements?

This would be so much easier if my dogs were adults and at a relatively stable weight, without special large breed and puppy needs :/ Every time I think I have a good grasp and things are going well, I just come up with more questions.

Thanks in advance.

[Akari_32]

It’s not that I’m not wanting a pit bull, it’s that I just *really* want a bull terrier. Like, for 10 years or so– and I’m only 20. I want them both (among much larger, and less common breeds like the Irish Wolfhound), but I’m more on the bull terrier side. What really decides it is money when the times comes. How much it is to get a puppy from whatever breeder I decide to go with, how close they are and how I’m going to be getting the puppy, if there even are puppies available, if a rescue has a dog I like, how much and where it is, and how it’s going to get to me, if I don’t have the money for said dog or puppy, and/or fall in love with a dog from one of the various shelters around here.

Obviously, a breeder is always going to have puppies, but a rescue is not going to have the same selection, which is why I’m not pushing too much for that right now. When it comes down to it, I will be looking at what rescues and shelters have, but I can’t count on either to have a dog for several years until I’m ready for it. Which is why I’m looking at both, and find the best few of each. Another big reason for me going to a breeder though is I will be living with room mates, and they will have their own animals, as well as what ever I have. Rescues can *say* a dog is good with other dogs, cats, men, etc, but when the dog is moved from home to home, that can easily change. I am shopping around for both, but when it comes down to it, I have more to factor in than just puppy vs adult. I need to figure in the safely of the existing animals at the time I’m ready for this dog.

And really, I don’t even know when I will be getting this puppy/dog. My rott mix is extremely aggressive toward outside dogs, and very protective of me. So I’m basically waiting on him to pass, which is hopefully no time soon. He’s my 130 pound baby, and I love him to death. But they can’t live forever… I’m also going on almost 15 years of rescue dogs. Don’t get me wrong, give me any dog and I’ll love it for the rest of life, but I’d like to explore all my options for my next dog.

[Akari_32]

Hey guys! In the next few years I’ve decided that my next dog will be either an English Bull Terrier or a Pit Bull. It all really depends on what finds me first, and finances.

Since you can get pits here all day every day, I was hoping you guys could help me out with finding the best place to get a bull terrier. The only rescue I’ve found does not keep their website up to date (http://www.bullterrierrescue.org), so if anyone could point me toward an active one, that’d be great.

Quite honestly, though, a rescue is my second option. I know that Bull Terriers can be very head strong, so I’d be looking at a puppy if I couldn’t find a local-ish rescue with a dog I could handle. So that leaves me also looking at breeders. I’m happy with this one:

http://bulliesofnc.com

And there are a few on the AKC website I’m going to look into, as well. But that’s as far I’ve been able to research so far, as I don’t like doing much on my phone and I don’t currently have internet at home. If anyone has thoughts on this one, and any others to add, that’d be great. I’d also like some tips for buying from a breeder– what to look for, what some red flags are, your experiences with buying from (any) breeders, etc.

This is all a year plus off in the future, so I’ve got plenty of time to scoot around and mull things over, and find the best breeders and rescues. I live in Florida, so please keep that in mind when recommending anything. I don’t want to go to California for a dog :p

While this will be my first personal bully breed, I do fully know what I’m getting into. I’ve walked dogs at the local humane society (and by “dogs” I mean about 2 dozen pit bulls), and my aunt had a pit up until recently when he had to be out down after shattering his shoulder at the age of 15. I’ve also got a 130 pound Rottweiler mix. Needless to say, I’m no stranger to large, powerful dogs. And I’m always the one people come to with dog troubles. However, I’m open to all advice of you bully parents!

TIA! 🙂

[Sue’s Zoo]

Sharon,
I’m beginning to wonder if this winter will ever end! Though it sounds like you’re having a rougher time of it than we are in St. Louis. And it sounds like you must be in a fairly rural location. But I think pulling out some of your less expensive cuts to get by is a good idea since you’ve already made a start towards raw. That’s just my two cents from a novice raw-feeder! The stories about your Maine Coon are priceless. I can almost see him as I read. Except for the obvious physical differences his personality reminds me of our tuxedo cat, Gizmo.

As far as managing the bones etc. based on what I’ve read I wouldn’t worry about one feeding or even several but trying to balance it over a week? Maybe longer since Mystery isn’t a puppy? I try to be more careful of the Calcium/Phosphorus ratios with two large breed, fast growing puppies because in a week they can grow significantly and in a month, one of them could easily gain another 10 pounds!

Good luck with the snow and food. Try to stay warm and dry. And keep me posted!

[ExplEngineer]

Thank you for your answers. Yes, I agree that both portion, and intake must be controlled in these larger [OK, Giant] breeds of dogs.

I am curious as to why there is an objection to “Hot Dogs” as the supplemental meat? And this is an honest inquiry, not a challenge or in any manner intended as being disrespectful. I am just a bit surprised that an all meat product of turkey, beef and chicken (I avoid the ones that contain pork, as it is my understanding that pork can be a trifle difficult for a dog to digest). When the steer is headed for the freezer, there is always ground beef (minimal fat content) or the type of chunks of beef that I use in chili or stew. When I come up on them in the supermarket I will pick up chicken breasts or thighs to add to their food, and of course the lads love cheese omelets for their weekend breakfast (they were given raw eggs in their prior home and seemed to thrive on them, but I hate to leave any raw egg product down on the floor for more than just a very few minutes while the cooked eggs remain edible for the better part of any hour. I do have to admit to throwing in an occasional strip of bacon as a treat, but it is not in any way included in their dietary schedule or as meeting any portion of their daily requirements for nutrition.

Actually, on occasion, I will even eat one or two of the hot dogs that I feed to them so I don’t see that there should be a qualitative or a food safety issue, but I assume that there must be something about them about which I am neither aware of, or I would not even consider feeding them to the lads. Trust me on that, both of my kids tell me that if for some reason they are involved in an accident, their last and most important wish is to come back reincarnated as my dog (& they are both >30, college educated, and in good career positions so they are neither deprived,nor underprivileged).

I am in my 47th year of owning and raising Mastiffs, but I still feel the need to seek out better ways of doing so. Now being semi-retired, they are with me virtually 24/7/365, and members of the family and the last thing that I would ever want to do is to raise them in a sub-optimal environment.

Tomorrow is annual inoculation day for my older one, and I shall be using a new, but highly recommended Veterinarian, and I will make a point of having this discussion with him as well, but as with physicians and psychologists, all health care professionals are equally skilled in all ancillary facets of animal health and as with human patients, a wise physician will consult with a dietician in constructing an omnibus treatment team, so I looking forward to integrating all available sources of information, and their recommendations, into our daily routine.

TIA to both of you for your input, and for adding resources to my knowledge base.

[RescueDaneMom]

I agree with what Ana said. I have a Great Dane as well so I understand the challenge that feeding a giant breed can be sometimes. I would avoid the hot dogs too. I only use hot dogs (good quality, all meat, all natural) for very special rewards. It’s not something you want to feed all the time.

My Dane was always slightly overweight on kibble no matter what brand I fed or how much I reduced his portion. The best thing I ever did for his health was switch him to The Honest Kitchen and raw. THK is a dehydrated food. You add water and let it rehydrate before serving it. It would be great for traveling in your motorhome with. You can incorporate some raw food instead of hot dogs if the concept of raw doesn’t bother you. There are a number of high quality raw frozen foods out there. I like Primal and Stella & Chewy’s the best. I started making my own homemade raw food because it was cheaper for me.

If you want to feed kibble, definitely check out the 4 and 5 star rated kibbles on this site. Everybody has their preferences. A few I like and have fed my Dane are: Earthborn Holistic, Annamaet Grain Free, Go! Fit & Free, Acana Regionals (Grain Free), and Orijen. Others I like are Horizon Legacy, Dr. Tim’s, and Victor. I would feed the 7 month old a food from Hound Dog Mom’s list of foods that are appropriate for a large breed puppy: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit All of these foods are 4 or 5 stars and have the appropriate amount of calcium for a growing large breed puppy.

Good luck and have fun with your newly adopted pups!

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi angele normand,

A homemade cooked diet is doable but you’re going to have to be really careful with the calcium/phosphorous. I’ve never cooked for a large breed puppy just adults so I don’t know how to go about making sure the calcium and phosphorous is at the right level. Hopefully Patty or someone else that is knowledgeable will chime in. Here is a website to get you started though: http://dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html This website has a wealth of info. I would go through it thoroughly. Also, the book “Real Food for Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Becker would be worth purchasing in my opinion. It explains everything about what canine diets need and how to make them. There are recipes for raw and cooked meals.

Good luck and good for you for wanting to do the best for your new furbaby!

[ExplEngineer]

I have adopted two English Mastiffs, one is ~3yrs old and the other is 7mos old. Yes, I know that they have some different nutritional requirements, but I also know that #1: They are inseparable, father-son, & totally dedicated to each other; #2: Yes, I know that I can separate them at feeding time, or at any other time, I can train them to do what I tell them to do, etc. but I can also raise happy, well adjusted dogs that do what they are told when obedience is a real requirement, I took in both of them because I can tell from their interactions that while they could be raised separately, they will be happier being together, and I am at that age that while they will have to accept responsibilities as a Certificated Service Dog(s), I can be genuinely happy when they are genuinely happy and unless or until a problem arises (which I shall always be diligent in looking for indicators, I am not oblivious to these matters), I can afford to raise two Mastiffs and my goal is to make their lives as happy, and as stress-free as I can make it consistent with the rules of my house. The eat at the same time, generally out of their own bowls, but they have been known to trade out the bowls that they are eating out of, and they eat far better when they are fed together. I have been using Purina Large Breed Dry Dog Food (which is what I have fed both Blackhawk, whom I just lost, and Othello before him and who my Vet has commented as to how healthy looking they were, and they could maintain proper weight on that diet), 20oz-22oz supplemented with about 0.5lbs of meat b.i.d. Until the youngest is about a year old, I will mix in Puppy Chow to ensure that he is also getting the correct balance of nutrients for a growing puppy, while allowing the adolescent (these large dogs are generally not fully and finally developed until they reach 3.5 to 4.0 yrs old) to partake of the same mixture. My principle guidelines in feeding are to watch the weight and weight gain and growth of the each of my lads, and as long as they appear to be doing well, have great looking coats and show no signs of nutritional deficiencies, in consultation with my Vet I continue to use the same foods in their diet. The meat component will vary from Hot Dogs, which allow good portion control and consistency, are nutritious and if properly selected provide a proper cross-section of meat(s), while being required to meet USDA standards for human food, provide some variety, and are easily kept while we are on the road in the motor home, and not requiring any continual readjustments to new diets at home and away. When we put up a steer in the freezer, I not only set aside beef from it for the lads, but have it packaged in serving size containers for portion control, plus I set aside a portion of it to be prepared into “jerky treats” (I am no longer comfortable with the commercially available jerky treats, + every now and then I can snitch one of theirs when it is time for a treat). Having said all of that, I am never too old, or too stubborn to learn, or to find a new means of feeding the boys if it is to their advantage. Fortunately, while in this economy no one can say that cost is never a factor, but it is not a controlling factor, and if there is a valid reason to convert to other foods or additions to their diets, I am more than willing to change them over, notwithstanding a price or cost increase. Please jump in and share your views, I’m new here and truly interested in having the happiest and healthiest well-behaved and well-trained Mastiffs around.

[Lance & Nikki]

Hi! I was researching some info on food for our dogs and I came upon this site and more importantly, this great thread. I read some of the thread but didn’t see what I was looking for exactly, so my apologies if this has already been addressed, but I really want to make sure that we are doing the right thing when it comes to feeding our wonderful dogs.

We have a Great Dane that is now almost 13 months old and we have a St Bernard puppy that will be 14 weeks old this Friday. Right now we are feeding them both Artemis Fresh Mix for medium and large breed puppies. We went with this food because it got good reviews and from what we could find, it’s a high quality food. But now that Pepper (our Dane) is over a year old, we were thinking of transitioning her to an adult food and preferably a grain free one because she does have a rather sensitive stomach. In researching this, we saw that calcium content is an issue in giant breed dogs, especially breeds like the Great Dane, and it seems that many grain free foods are higher in calcium.

What we want to switch Pepper over too is the Merrick grain free line of foods because from everything we have ever read, Merrick is a fantastic company that makes extremely high quality food. And since we have to get the Artemis food shipped in because nobody locally carries it, and we already use the Merrick canned food a couple of times a week to supplement the dry food and both our dogs love it, we would really like to use the Merrick food once our dogs are old enough to switch to adult food. I did e-mail Merrick to find out what their calcium content is by dry matter and they sent me the following:

Grain Free Chicken- 2.50%
Grain Free Buffalo- 2.50%
Grain Free Duck- 2.50%
Grain Free Pork- 2.32%

Now these are all over the recommended limit of 1.3% to 1.5% that I have read about for giant breed dogs, but most of those limits were for their growth stage. My question (and concern) is, is Pepper old enough now where the calcium content of the food isn’t as critical as it would be if she were still a fast growing puppy (she’s right about 100 pounds now and hasn’t put on much weight at all in the last few months, she’s seems pretty steady at her current weight and size)? She currently is eating twice a day (morning and evening) about 2 cups at each feeding.

Sorry for the long winded first post and thank you in advance for any advice/information you can throw our way, it is greatly appreciated!

Lance & Nikki

[GizmoMom]

I believe your dog is considered a large breed puppy. Head over to this thread.
/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

[Mom2Cavs]

You feed your new Shepherd puppy cat food? Now I will say that some dog and cat foods contain the exact same ingredients in some companies. For example, Fromm Gold canned foods are so similar between cat and dog formulas that I actually feed my cat the dog cans. Also, Mulligan Stew is made for cats and dogs. Another one I found I could feed just the dog formula to both is Instinct Healthy Weight. Theirs applies to both canned and their Healthy Weight Raw Boost kibble! HOWEVER, a Shepherd is considered a large breed, if I’m not mistaken, and large breed puppies have specific nutritional requirements. It would seem to me that cat food does not meet those requirements. They need special calcium to phosphorus ratios to grow properly. I’m certainly not an expert, as I have small dogs and one cat, but I have learned this. I’m sure others will post that are experts on the subject of large breed puppies. Btw, there is a list on this site/forum of foods that would work for large breed puppies and have the correct nutritional content. Good luck to you!

[Sharon Buchanan]

Freed1 ~
You can see the entire 5-star list of foods here: /dog-food-reviews/dry/5-star/.

My opinion is that Orijen is the best dry food, whether you are feeding puppy, large breed puppy or adult. It is however, more expensive that the average brand you find at Petsmart.

[Sharon Buchanan]

Jazz ~
Sorry I didn’t get back to you yesterday. It’s been a madhouse around here with my oldest daughter moving out yesterday, me trying to finish some reading on raw diets so I can order some food before tomorrow and trying to find the right adoptable Golden for my husband.

I appreciate that RescueDaneMom jumped in to give you some very good advice. Pattyvaughn is another great resource as are any number of people more qualified than I.

Although some of the papers from the Great Dane study indicate that a 6 month old LBP could effectively absorb calcium, I have to agree with GDM that waiting at least until 10 months to switch to a higher calcium diet is better. I would however, still feed LBP kibble until full grown, up to 2 years old – you’ll know when your pup has reached that point.

I did switch Mystery to Orijen, Large Breed Puppy a month or so ago and if I hadn’t gone raw I’d have fed it until he was at least 16 months old. I wouldn’t have moved to Acana LBP because their MINIMUM calcium is 1.6%, Orijen is 1.2/1.5 min/max. Some of the Acana Regionals recipes have a similar low minimum calcium of 1.2% but they don’t say what their max is. Additionally, the protein content is lower than Orijen LBP. For comparison’s sake – Orijen LBP and both adult formulas contain 14 proteins and then starches follow. Acana Wild Prairie 2 proteins then a starch while their Grasslands is a bit better at 4. 80% of Orijen’s ingredients are protein, Acana is 60%. Of the other foods that RDM listed, I have opinions on all of them, but you can do further comparisons.

IF I were going to continue into adult kibble, I would absolutely have stayed with any variety of adult Orijen and would have felt very good about my decision. All five cats are eating Orijen with the youngest, a five month old Maine Coon stealing a few ounces of Mystery’s raw. I spent a lot of time researching pedigrees and genetics and food so that we could avoid, to every extent possible, a repeat of the $10,000 it cost us to have double-hip surgery on Sunset before she was two and three months of 24/7 in-clinic therapy to teach her how to walk again. I’m by no means an expert, but I can read and the more I do, the better I feel about my food choices, and why I switched to Orijen at 9 months and then raw so soon after at 10 months.

I wholly agree with RDM on turmeric. Mystery is enrolled in the Morris Foundation’s lifetime study on the relationship between cancer and Golden Retrievers and since we just lost Sunset to cancer, I feel a duty to do everything I can keep Mystery from getting cancer. I do purchase some supplements from Swanson and I’ve had Mystery on Springtime’s Longevity but I’m not certain I will continue that. I do agree with your decision to limit supplements since most kibble already contain a variety of supplements – I recently read an article on supplement overkill. If I can dig that article up I’ll let you know.

I also give Mystery raw eggs on occasion. It’s my understanding that the shell of the egg has a perfect balance of calcium to phosphorus. So if you’re still feeding a low calcium kibble and you want to add a bit more without switching to a higher calcium food, break an egg! I usually break it over a bowl, break up the shell a bit with my hands and pour it over his food. He gets the same eggs I eat – Born Free, Vegetarian without the added omegas or any other organic, free-range brown egg when Born Free is unavailable.

One more note – Susan Thixton had her site truthaboutpetfood.com hacked a couple years ago and so opened another site adding a “2” to the end. The problem finally resolved, she’s moved everything back over to truthaboutpetfood.com but is in the process of cleaning things up – hopefully that will be finished soon. Keep checking back, sign up for her newsletter or “Like” her on Facebook. She’s worth following.

Whew! 😉

[theBCnut]

Hi Lablubber
If you are serious about wanting to make your own dog food, check out the raw food section. Hound Dog Mom had blood hounds and the recipes she created on there are excellent and have the right amount of calcium for large breed puppies. After you look at that, if you decide you want something easier to get started, there are premixes that you just add meat and oil to, that you may want to check out. See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix is one. The Honest Kitchen Preference is another. And Dr Harvey’s Veg to Bowl is a third. Finally, Dr Karen Becker’s book “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” and Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” are great resources as is dogaware dot com.

[sean76034]

I know these posts are like a year old, and I also know it has to do with large breeds like Great Danes, but I need some advice. I have a 2 month old doberman puppy mix and she has been knuckling over. It started when she was smaller, we noticed her front leg would shake while she was sitting, we thought she was just getting used to her weight so we ignored it. 2 weeks later which is around now, she looked a lot worse while she was running outside. She started to run with three legs. This is when I realized something was actually wrong. I looked it up and realized she goes back and forth from normal to stage 1 and 2. The more active she is, the more it looks like stage 2, the less active it looks like stage 1, and when she is asleep most of the time then starts walking it looks normal. This led me to believe it is just knuckling over and nothing worse that would need immediate surgery. I have concluded many reasons to why this happened to her. For one, all we have is tile/hardwood floor throughout the house, for two, we switched foods many times, and lastly, the food she was on had like 27% protein. After reading many posts I’ve concluded she needed lower protein so I went and got her 21% protein with no by-products or corn. It seems to have been helping because her paws look normal right now, but she hasn’t been as active since we don’t let her play anymore with her litter mates. We had a litter of 8 puppies, which the other 7 are all normal and they’re still on the 27% protein. All seemed great until I read that when they have knuckling joints their supposed to be on low fat too. I read the label and the food she’s on is 21% protein and 16% fat. I’ve concluded this is too much fat so now I am wondering if we should once again switch foods on her. What do you guys recommend I should do? Buy a high quality adult food that is 21/12? Or keep her on what she’s on? I feel if we did that she would get too heavy for her paw. But I feel if we switched foods again which will be like the 3rd or 4th time it will make problems worse. What should I do? if I had to make a diagnosis id say she’s looking pretty normal at this point. But I think that’s just due to more sleep and walking and less running and playing. Also I read that vitamin C is good, but she won’t eat her food with the crushed up pill in it. If anyone still comes on here please help us out because we don’t want her to get worse

[Sue’s Zoo]

RescueDaneMom, (Sorry, everyone, I know this is off topic) Here’s a recent photo of Loki and Michonne (please ignore the back yard). Loki is a 7-month old 84-pound male (breeder said he’s probably the largest she’s ever had, so not exactly representative of the breed) and Michonne is a 4-month old 40-pound female. I cannot praise the breed or breeder enough. Mine came from Solace Shilohs in Seattle. We have always had GSDs (some rescues, some from breeders) but after losing the last ones, I decided to try to find a breed without all the potential health issues. It seems like we always ended up with the ones that had something rare yet still specific to GSDs. So I researched (primarily on dogbreedinfo.com) and came up with the Shiloh. All the great qualities of GSDs but breeding is carefully controlled to attempt to eliminate as many as possible. Of course, we get Loki who ends up with a heart problem. We must be a magnet for dogs that need special care.

Loki is so huge, not sure if his ears will stand but guessing they will, just later than normal as he still has a lot of growing to do. Anticipate 140 to 150 pounds as his adult weight. Michonne is much more the norm and will probably be about 110. And they are SO enjoying their new diet! We have an older GSD to transition, then the two cats. Also any number of 21-23 years old when home from college and my 86-year-old mom and 4 horses at a boarding stable. Thus the Zoo 🙂

And here’s a link to other photos on my Phanfare page for the dogs:
http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/7Xjb0XLd/1/6201469

• This reply was modified 12 years, 3 months ago by Sue's Zoo.

[RescueDaneMom]

Lablubber-

I just wanted to say that I didn’t intentionally ignore your post. I tend not to respond unless I feel 100% sure in the advice I can offer. I personally didn’t go through the LBP phase. I adopted my Great Dane when he was 2. I feed a combination of raw and dehydrated but I know that not everyone is comfortable in feeding raw. I fed my boy kibble for 5 years before I started learning about raw.

I think that coconut oil, flax, and fish oil are great supplements to be adding right now. I don’t think it’s wise to give a ton of supplements to puppies right off the bat. Those 3 though are great. The only other thing you might want to consider is digestive enzymes and probiotics if you notice your pup needs a little extra digestive support. I give them to my dog because he’s older. You can also give a little bit of kefir. You can find it in the grocery store. It has 10 strains of probiotics. It’s much better than yogurt. You’d have to feed way more yogurt to get the same probiotic benefit as kefir. Also, I too switch off fish oil with krill oil. I would definitely continue to do that. They don’t need as much krill oil as fish oil because it is more bioavailable so you’ll want to watch your dosage. Here is info on krill oil from Dr. Becker: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx

Here is an article from Dr. Becker on using Tumeric: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/11/12/turmeric.aspx She provides dosage at the bottom. “Small to medium-sized dogs can be given 250 milligrams twice a day, and large to giant breeds should get 500 milligrams two to three times a day.” Here is an article on coconut oil if you haven’t seen it already: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

If I were feeding kibble from HDM’s list, my top picks would be Earthborn Holistic and Annamaet. I have fed both to my dog and he did really well on them. I haven’t used it but I like the look of Dr. Tim’s. I also used The Honest Kitchen. I’ve been using for almost 6 years now. It’s a dehydrated food that you rehydrate with water before serving. It’s not raw because it has been heated during the dehydration process, though at a lot lower temperature than what kibble is exposed to when being extruded. You can use it as a topper if you want. The Thrive and Love varieties are complete and balanced with the correct Ca/P ratio for a LBP.

[Sharon Buchanan]

BernerdAd ~
Just wanted to ditto Patty’s recommendation on pumpkin. It isn’t something I care to eat, but I keep a single can in my pantry just in case. When I have to open it up, another can goes on the grocery list.

Lablubber ~
I can’t remember if I read anywhere the age of your Lab. There’s a number of articles that HDM posted at the very beginning of this topic that address the correct percentage of calcium for large breed puppies. The figures vary somewhat, I chose to take the advice of Dr. Baker and keep Mystery’s calcium nearer to .80 percent. (My Mystery is an English Creme Golden Retriever – healthy adult weight will be about 85 pounds.)

I hadn’t found this forum when I was researching food so I ended up creating my own chart. I looked at calcium percentage as well as ingredients. I wasn’t going to feed junk (by-products, un-named meat meals, synthetic supplements, controversial ingredients – canola oil for one), no matter what the calcium percentage was. But I also wasn’t going to feed what I thought was the best kibble (no preservatives, no grains), if the calcium was higher than I believed it should be. I would have like to have been feeding Mystery Orijen or Acana but their calcium max for LBP is 1.5%. Though they say they try to keep it to the minimum 1%, they’d be okay feeding my dog nearly twice what he should’ve gotten. In the end, I chose Innova LBP kibble.

A simple explanation of the problem with too much calcium is, that a LBP less than six months old does not have the ability to process excess calcium properly. Too much calcium gets deposited on the outside of the bones which then causes bone disease. Again, this is the simple explanation – try reading all the articles HDM posted, some of them are a little more technical, but you’ll learn a lot from them. And don’t expect your vet to be familiar with the LBP study or any of the reports from that study. My vet said he wasn’t sure if he’d read any of them when I first mentioned diet concerns – and tried to make me feel like I couldn’t possibly know what I was talking about.

Back to the age of your Lab. Once a puppy has reached six months of age, he is able to process calcium better but even afterward, calcium still needs to be lower than what a small or medium size puppy can handle. I moved Mystery to Orijen LBP kibble just last month when he was 9 months old. To address your concern regarding transitioning foods, when Mystery’s Innova got down to the last pound, I added a pound of Orjen to it. When that was gone a few days later, it was all Orijen.

As far as expense goes, I considered Innova to be an average priced kibble – compared to Purina, Iams, Science Diet, or any other junk food. Orijen, on the other hand is going to cost more but is worth it – as far as kibble goes. Innova did have a recall last year at the time that I was feeding it to Mystery. I was forced to switch him over to Wellness – the next lowest calcium percentage, but I cringed at every meal because chicken meal is their third ingredient rather than first, and they use Sodium Selenite instead of Selenium Yeast. It looks like Innova has changed their LBP recipe – I don’t know what I’d do now if my only option to feed was kibble to a LBP.

BTW, when Innova had their recall, I had no choice but to switch Mystery to Wellness – without any transition. And my cats have never needed transitioning as I’ve upgraded their food. Obviously, common sense must rule if you see a problem cropping up because of the change.

I have to agree with Patty on Blue. In addition to their minimum calcium percentage being too high, they have three grains in their top five ingredients, they add chicken FLAVOR (why do they need flavoring?), sodium selenite and caramel which is used to make you, the purchaser feel good about the color of their garbage, as if your dog thinks caramel colored food tastes better than beige food. I also don’t like seeing oil of rosemary so high on their ingredient list since we had a Golden that had seizures (if your dog doesn’t have seizures rosemary oil/extract might not be a problem).

In retrospect, I should have started feeding Mystery raw when we first brought him home at 10 weeks instead of waiting until now when he is 10 months old. You will absolutely learn much here at dogfoodadvisor and especially in the forums. I would also suggest, if you have to continue feeding kibble, go to truthaboutpetfood.com and sign up for her free newsletter. She’s also on Facebook if you prefer. I will say though, that I credit Susan Thixton (truthaboutpetfood), with my decision to pursue a raw diet. Of course, it was here at the forums that I received the most encouragement to switch.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 3 months ago by Sharon Buchanan.

[Lablubber]

Hi KMS

Thank you once again for your reply on the vaccinations and yes i know this is a nutrition forum for large breed dogs and I have most of the tinme been talking about it buit it just came to mind while I was typing so I asked anyway, since all of your longtimers seem so well versed and have educated yourself in the finer points of truly raising your dog right… So thank you for your reply…. It is very much appreciated…

Then Patty, thank you also for your reply…. I know that written word is the poorest form of communication there is and you grossly misunderstood my intentions in my words because if you have read my other posts, I happen to think all of you are very informative and also very wise in your area of expertise. I actually switched off of the dog food my breeder had my pup on because of a post I think Hound Dog Mom made and I don’t know where in the world off of here that I got the idea to use Blue but it has made a world of difference in his coat, his stool conformity and he has yet to have the first issue with the Chicken and Rice Lg. Breed Puppy Food.

As far as the raw diet goes, I have no issue with anyone using it and believe me had I not seen first hand several issues myself with it, then I assure you for my pup, I would doing whatever it takes to have him on it and besides even the people I knew that had the issue may have not used the raw diet in the prop[er way or had the strict regime of ingredients like you guys do.

Believe me if I didn’t agree with anything you sauid or thought that you didn’t know what you were talking about….i sure would not have changed my whole way of thinking and I would still be using milk replacer in my puppy chow and facing hip or elbow issues down the road.

I came here to be educated by people like you and hound dog mom and all of the year of wisdom that is formed and madeup by in this forum. And then boom you hit me with another shot in your last reply and told me Blue had too much calcium as well and I just finished a 20 day transition over to it for my dog.

I swear someone on here told me it was one of the top 25 foods to feed a large breed puppy. So excuse me if I upset you by using the poorest form of communication there is because there was nothing intended wrongly for any of you. Because I am disciple of all of you and intend to remain so if you guys don’t shun me out for poor wording.

So with that said… Can I just plainly, country boy ask you what you would feed a labrador retriever pup that means the world to you if you don’t feel comfortable with going the raw way just yet?

One other thing I would also like to ask about supplimentation is with all of the stomach cancer issue that so many older dogs are facing… Has any of you ever added Tumeric or Curcumin to your dogs diet because I can tell you for a fact and even MD Anderson Hospital finally admitted that they have found that it actually kills cancer cells and then acts as an outright cancer fighting addition to your diet… My boss had Multiple Myeloma (Bone Cancer) and he was in stage 4 when they found it and then through nutritional changes and lots of prayer, he is a documented walking miracle. Needless to say his whole staff now takes tumeric/curcumin everyday… And my pup get a 1/2 capsule everyday as well, until I find out it is bad thing for him which I don’t think I will from what I have read. In fact I am going to write Texas A&M Vet. School to make sure that it will not and if not what dosage I could give him to be a correct amount for his system. I personally think it will make him cancer immune in his old age. I have had skin cancers on my arm dissolve and dissappear after just a few month of taking 3 capsules a day of it every day.

So I am sorry if I ruffled anyone up because I truly did not mean to do so because I respect and enjoy reading every single thing you guys write. I read it every day and every night religiously. I just thought it was kindly strange that everyone was replying to all the posts done after mine and not a thing toward mine at all… You know what assuming does but anything I aksed is asked geniunnely because I don’t know and really want someone more educated and wise to step up and help me out… This puppy means the world to me and so I only want the best for him even if I have to swallow a lot of stuff that I didn’t know I was doing wrong on.

So thanks for your reply and I look forward tolearning much more from all of you on this forum.

The Lablubber

So thank you for all of your help and wisdom and please continue what you are doing for all of us newbies to the real world of pet nutrition.

[theBCnut]

Hi Lablubber

Maybe nobody responded to your posts because we don’t all want to come across as negative. I couldn’t care less about your gender and frankly, found it insulting that you thought it would matter, in any way.

The food you are choosing to feed your dog is too high in calcium for a large breed dog and is not recommended, in spite of it’s name. That’s what this whole thread is about. Think about choosing a food from this list.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
The oils you are adding are fine.

I would consider your plans for vaccination to be overkill, by now either the pup should be immune or it has an immune system problem and no amount of vaccinating will fix that. The Lepto vaccine doesn’t cover all the different serovars out there and so is considered unreliable, but using it does come with risks, so if your vet recommends against it even though you have expressed concerns, I would listen to your vet. He sounds like he may actually be a good one rather than one that just wants more of your money.

I don’t care if you don’t want to feed raw or rotate your foods, that’s entirely up to you, but when people ask us what we think is best, we would be remiss if we didn’t tell them what we think is best and maybe even share why. To me, the arguments are compelling, but then, I’ve had plenty of dogs with GI issues and food intolerances.

BTW, none of your questions actually had anything to do with large breed nutrition, not that we stay on topic here, but that may also be why no one answered. It’s not their area of knowlege.

[theBCnut]

Balanced is between 1:1 and 2:1 according to old AAFCO guidelines, BUT and this is a big BUT, large breed dogs need lower calcium than that, in fact it is looking like AAFCO may finally update this year to recommend lower calcium in all puppy foods because of this. You still want to have closer to 1:1 if you are feeding a large breed pup. Sorry I can’t remember what you said your dog is.

[aimee]

I’ve come to look at this issue differently. I’m open to the idea that the criteria PhD nutritionists and veterinary nutritionists use to evaluate foods leads them to conclusions that may differ from our own. Veterinarians may be following the lead of these specialists. For example Susan Wynn DVM, an integrative/holistic practitioner, board certified in nutrition, recommends Hill’s Science Diet http://susanwynn.com/Literature.php click on large breed puppy nutrition.

When zoo nutritionists choose to feed commercial foods Hill’s is often on the menu. Some on this site have suggested that zoos use Hills only because they get the food for free. However, the Hills rep I spoke to said as far as she knew Hills has never had a zoo feeding program. Additionally, she confirmed that many zoos have accounts with them. The local zoo said they purchase Hills from the manufacturer.

When surveying vets, all 5 reported that their nutrition classes were taught by PhD’s and DVM’s without any food industry ties. Three said the only contact from Hills was a free copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition which was left on a table to take if they wanted ( the book was not used in any formal way in their classes). The 4th said in addition to the book she could purchase food at a reduced rate. The 5th said that Hills reps were at the school for free lunch/ presentations. She said faculty attended too and afterwards they led discussions on how to critically evaluate the material presented.

After evaluating the education of these vets, talking to zoos (I spoke to 2) and finding recommendations for Hills SD from people highly educated in nutrition I’m finding I need to be open to the idea that those highly educated in nutrition use different criteria to evaluate diets.

[Sully’sMom]

Thank you Sharon!

Your path sounds similar to our own. Began with several different vet visits for ‘isolated’ incidents, until thanks to all my reading, and in large part this forum, I realized these weren’t all isolated incidents. Thankfully, the vet took me seriously! We began down the road to find out what was the cause. I, too, called the breeder to inquire about the parents, littermates, etc. Nope, nothing. Just us!
I also stumbled upon the Dogs Naturally article yesterday…between that one and two in Whole Dog Journal, it sounds as if coconut oil is going to be a good thing!
Thank you for all your input 🙂

[Sharon Buchanan]

Sue’s Zoo ~

I am a nanobyte of information away from going raw. I spent two months researching the best kibble to buy for my Golden puppy and now I’ve spent another eight months researching the best way to feed my growing boy and have come to the conclusion that raw is the way to go. Unfortunately, I am also concerned about balancing not only calcium and phosphorus but everything else, protein, veggies, supplements.

Being at a similar point in the raw decision as you (everyone makes it out to be no big deal but it is intimidating nevertheless), the best I can offer is to share a few things I’ve learned along the way and hope it’s helpful.

Having had a Golden that required double-hip surgery before she was two, proper bone growth was a huge concern for me. If you’ve been to the LBP nutrition forum (/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/#post-33156), you’ve probably already read some of the suggestions that Hound Dog Mom posted at the beginning of the thread. If you haven’t, do – It would’ve saved me a lot of research time if I’d found the forum ten months ago. Although I waded through the technical jargon in many of the articles, I found the article by Baker most useful and objective. Now that Mystery is 10 months old, I’m allowing more calcium in his diet than Baker’s recommended .8%. I’ve changed his kibble to one with a higher calcium content (from Innova to Orijen), and have started giving him an occasional RMB and raw egg (yeah, puppy steps).

I can’t speak to whether a puppy should eat raw bones until their adult teeth are in except to say that when I asked my breeder about food choices, I was told he starts giving his puppies chicken backs at six months.

As far as balanced nutrition goes, I’ve considered “balanced” frozen raw brands but they really are expensive and there’s much debate as to whether they’re safe. I’ve read so much conflicting, contradictory and even argumentative information that I have to take a few days off research just to clear my head. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever get my Mystery off kibble.

That said, I did find an Internet conference (what will they think of next), on feeding raw that is hosted by Dogs Naturally Magazine. You can find more information here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-roundup/. It isn’t until the end of the month but I’ve already registered and am hopeful to glean that last nanobyte of information so that Mystery will be eating only raw in March.

[Akari_32]

So I went into Pet Supermarket and talked to the manager about their Diamond foods. The only carry chicken, beef, and lamb adult formulas, as well as the lamb large breed. I asked if he could get any of the puppy foods, or the grain free and he said he’s only allowed to order what the chain as a whole carries. I asked him if he had anything similar and he pointed me to the Canidae ALS.

Since he didn’t have either of the two I was looking for, I didn’t ask him if he knew which plant they got the food from. I decided to wait and look into them and see if I liked any before going any further. Anyone have a reccomendation out of these? (None of the above is also an option lol).

[Lablubber]

Hi it’s me again..

I have almost completely finished transitioning over from the food my breeder had my pup on to Blue Chicken and Rice Large Breed Puppy Food with nothing but good results. I have taken a little over a month and 4 days to accomplish that in and his stool are solid and no stomach issues…. Right now I am at 80 % transition 80% BLue/20% Purina Puppy Chow Lg. Breed Food. Right now I am also adding a teaspoon of coconut oil, a teaspoon of ground flaxseed and some fish oil, about 1000mg.

I am not using any toppers except at night for his supper meal and that is canned Blue Puupy Food about a 1/5th to 1/4th of a can. And his coat is shiny and he seems to be doing very well on it…

But for me where my problem arises is from me reading and listening to all of you guys….I almost feel like if I am not alternating out a bunch of different foods and using different kinds of toppers and adding numerous supplements to his food, then it makes me feel like I am shortchanging my dog???

And please believe me….. I have not spared any expense on my part that I know of concerning him and I really do not want to do the raw diet because I have had too many people I know who have had their dogs, get serious bacterial infections from it and some have even died from sluffing off their intestinal lining and dying of anemia before they could be saved by IV feeding and a harsh round of antibiotics.

So for me….This particular dog is just way too valuable for me to ever chance that and believe me I am not here to make any enemies by saying that but I just want you know my logic behind what I am doing with him so far. But then I also have to say this as well and something that I have found out in life myself and some wise words of wisdom and that is this…. Just because someone does something different or feels differently about another idea or approach to your particular way of doing things….Doesn’t neccessarily make them wrong….It just makes them different…! There i said it…My sermon for the day….

So anyway I took painstakingly long with my Labrador Retriever pup after listening to all of you guys and even forsaking what my vet said and changed over to a food that I read about and researched over for many hours and also a food that I had access to, to buy very readily, that I didn’t have to worry about ever running out of even where some of the online food stood the chance of having weather related delays in shipping, that it would not be running. And so I chose a food that I have seen proven to do well with my friend’s large breed dogs. And then I made a just a very few additions to the food, just to make me feel better.

I did as all of you said ion here and I cut out the milk replacer that I had always feed my pups for the first six months of their lives and longer is I saw the need to do so and I did thatimmediately. So anyway…He appears to be doing extremely well. Although he had to have several surgeries yesterday because he had a slight hernia that had to be repaired from a overzealous Lab mother licking him over and over all the time and never letting his navel ever truly heal up right. The he also had a dewclaw removed that either regrew or was missed by the breeder’s vet originally and he also had a place on his leg that had been cut while he was young at the breeder’s kennel that did not grow back right and so my vet did a little cosmetic repair there as well while he was out at no charge and she also micro-chipped him as well while he was out due to the fact that she hates to stick such a big needles in pups at that age if she can help it and so she prefers to have them out at the time of insertion and so she did that procedure as well..

So needless to say, my little fellow was exceptionally glad to see me when he I cam to pick him up….. He came home though like the walking wounded with a front leg dewclaw removed, a back leg, scar tissue repair, a hernia repair and a microchip inserted just at his shoulders along with an antibotic shot just above it, wearing an Elizabethen (sp.) collar to boot, so he was not a very happy puppy last night…. And today he is wired to a tee at work with me here today, needless to say.

So now for the advice part part….. Is the extra stuff I add to his food….The tsp. of coconut oil, the fish oil (which will be changed over to Krill oil when it gets here) and a teaspoon of ground flaxseed meal added to his food twice a day… Does all of that sound good to the ones in the know on here to be adding to his food or is that an over-kill???

Then on the medical part or at least the vaccination part of his regime…. He has had 3 series of shots so far… And I plan on having one more done just to be on the safe side, although my vet. says the 3 completes his regime. Plus he still has his Rabies shot coming up as well…. So does that suffice for his puppy shots being complete or is there anything more I need to be checking into???

I have read quite a few vets who did not reccomend them getting coronavirus or leptospirosis shots anymore(As well as my own vet feels the same way). But for me…Jess will be competing in AKC and UKC Hunter Retriever Trials and therefore he will be around a whole lot of other dogs in close proximity, so I just want to make sure that I have all of my bases covered with him as far as shots, intranasal and any other immunizations that he might need.

I am going to look into get his Lyme and Botedella vaccinations as well, but what is you guys thoughts on a working retriever and his vaccination requirements???

So that is about it today and I know i write very long but I figure if I don’t know, I never will without asking… So thank you for your patience…

Lablubber

[Polemos]

Thanks everyone for the replies! These are the other brands that I could find only from ordering online that seemed ok:

Acana Puppy and Junior
Hill’s Science Diet Puppy Healthy Development
Barking Heads Puppy Days (British Brand)
FROMM Puppy Gold Large Breed

There is also Orijen Puppy but it’s a little outside of our budget at the moment.

Thanks again everyone!

[goldenmom]

Which is the most updated list for recommended food for large breed puppies. From what I see there are 2 different ones I have seen. I will be getting a golden retriever puppy at the end of February and would like to have the most recent list to use.
Thank you

[Rambunctious]

I’m confused. No surprise!

I thought it was optimal to feed some of a can on top of kibble to aid in digestion or something. (For those who are feeding commercial) As much as I like THK- it’s not an option for us to feed that right now. We’re getting a labradoodle that we expect to hit about 55lbs in a bit over a month. I understand that it’s optimal to also rotate food. So, we were thinking of rotating dr.Tim’s kinesis (order online) and fromm’s gold puppy which we can get locally. I thought we should add a bit of wet food to each meal to moisten and provide a bit extra protein. I’m a little lost on where to find a decently priced wet. And if my plan sounds decent? 55lbs is on edge of large breed and I don’t want to mess her up if I should be looking else where.
I appreciate all the feedback!

[gsdmommy89]

When you say toppers, do you mean wet food? I’ve thought about wet again and again, but I just really don’t want to get him used to wet and then when I want to give him something by itself he’ll turn his nose up to it completely if it isn’t mixed. The only food I can honestly say I never had a problem with at all is the Fromm Large Breed Puppy. I stopped giving it to him because I felt it was too rich for his tummy and his stools were always loose. Not runny, just loose. I guess I’ll buy a few small bags of what I have available here at my local retailer and do trial and error. He didn’t seem to mind the Meadow Feast very much, so I guess I’ll try that first. If anyone has anymore advice or opinions, please let me know! Thank you

[dogmom]

Just a note on the Acana – I did move my 8-month old GSD from Origin Large Breed Puppy to Acana when he was 6 months old, because he was growing too fast, and the vet suggested that he be put on adult food to slow him down some. That’s worked great for us – again, sloooow switch between the foods – took a couple of weeks.

[dogmom]

I know that a number of you have said you don’t like the Acana and Origin brands because they have a touch too much calcium, but my large dogs have done really well on it. My youngest German Shepherd is at 85 lbs at 8 months old, and he’s looking and acting pretty perfect. My older Shepherds (range from 110 to 130 lbs) are doing great on it too. No upset stomachs, good stools, good health, and they LOVE this food. No Pano problems at all, and no Hip Displasia in the breeding lines at all, so I don’t expect that. We moved them from the breeder food to Acana very gradually, and it was smooth as it can be.

[gsdmommy89]

Hi everyone. I’m not new to this forum, but I do need some advice. I have a 7 month old GSD and I’ve only fed him from HDM’s list. I first started him on Fromm Large Breed Puppy from the age of 2 months til about 4.5 months. He ate all of it from his bowl but had very loose stools even with pumpkin mixed in and bad gas. I then switched him to Nature’s Variety LID Turkey thinking maybe since it was a bland ingredient list his stomach and stools would settle but he didn’t even touch it. Too bland I guess. I went back and exchanged it for the Nature’s Variety Large Breed Puppy which he ate willingly but when I went to pour the bag into my Vittles Vault I noticed it was expired so I went and took it back to get a new bag but was told that food doesn’t really move so the only bag on the shelf was expired, too. Bummer. I settled for NutriSource Large Breed Puppy and the first few bowls he ate ok, but then began turning his nose up to it. I tried a different approach and went for the Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch. Success! He ate it willingly and his stools firmed up nicely. The first bag went by and he ate it all up with no problem. Half way through the second bag I noticed he wasn’t going for it as excitedly as he used to. I bought a third bag anyway. Now I’m struggling to get him to eat it. I have to mix it with gravy for him to even touch it. My boyfriend has his brother and he feeds him Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast and I grabbed two cups from his to try with my dog. I gave it to him replacing his regular morning meal without gravy and although he ate it, it wasn’t as happily as I’d hoped for. I’m at a loss now. Has anyone had this problem? What solution did you find? I’m sorry I’ve made this long. I don’t want to keep mixing gravy and wouldn’t like to introduce wet. Don’t want to make him pickier than what he already seems to be. I was looking at Annamaet but I live in Los Angeles and no retailers carry it here. I’m not a fan of ordering online, I’d much prefer to drive and get my food. I’m also hesitating on switching back to grain inclusive as his poop is firm on grain free. My head just doesn’t function right at this point. Any pointers? I don’t even know if I’m asking this question in the right place

[theBCnut]

Hi Jazz Lover
You don’t have to worry about staying on a large breed appropriate food after Jazz is done growing. That’s just a gimmick that somebody thought up. All Life Stages foods are great for any age. My almost 12 yr old is doing great on ALS foods, way better than she was doing when I had her on an adult food.

[theBCnut]

Hi Rambunctious
I think we all felt the same way once. Soon all that info will start sorting itself in your head. Definitely take into account the amount of topper. The worst thing you can do for a large breed dog is to let them be a fat puppy. It puts too much stress on the joints.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Rambunctious,

One of my favorite toppers is The Honest Kitchen. I didn’t read your other posts, so I apologize if you mentioned you had special needs, but THK’s Thrive has appropriate Calcium for large breed puppies. It’s very fast and easy to put a couple of spoonfuls on top of his kibble and soak it all in water. Just stir, let it sit for about five minutes and its ready. THK is a dehydrated, less processed food, that just needs to be reconstituted with water. It’s a great product from a great company.

[RescueDaneMom]

Jazz Lover,

The general consensus is that puppies can start regulating calcium uptake around 8-10 months old. To play is really safe you could wait until 1 year.

Read this for an understanding of what “all life stages” means: /frequently-asked-questions/aafco-nutrient-profiles/

Essentially you can feed an “all life stages” food to a puppy because it is approved for growth and reproduction as well as adult maintenance. A lot of the labels on foods (ie large breed puppy, large breed adult, senior, etc) is just marketing. If pet food companies really knew what they were doing in formulating dog foods, there would be a lot more “large breed puppy” foods on the list. If I were you, I would not get caught up on the label. You don’t have to feed a food specifically for a large breed puppy or large breed adult. You need to make sure it is approved by AAFCO for growth and reproduction (aka puppy food) or all life stages.

I had to google FCP surgery. This was done to correct elbow dysplasia? As far as supplements go, I have heard the same. You don’t want to give supplements until they are done growing. I think you’d be safe starting them at 1 year. Does your vet have an opinion on this? I think you are ok with giving the salmon oil as long as you account for the calories that it adds. How much you feed will depend on the body condition of your dog. It is hard to say how much his metabolism will slow down. I would just watch his form and if he looks like he’s getting chunky, cut back on the food. If he starts to look too skinny, increase his food. Refer to the body condition chart in the Dr. Becker article I posted previously. I keep my dog lean because he is older and has arthritis. It is much easier on the joints.

Bottom line- if I were you I would continue to feed a food on HDM’s list and hold off on additional supplements until 1 year or per your vet’s instructions. I hope that is helpful to you.

[RescueDaneMom]

There are 3 reasons why the grain-inclusive Great Life didn’t make the list:
1- the calcium was too high.
2- the food is not 4 stars or above.
3- they didn’t respond to HDM’s inquiry about their actual calcium levels.

I’m not sure which one it was, but HDM said that if I food wasn’t on the list then it was because of one of the above reasons.

What are you still searching for? I would not be afraid to use the Wellness Core or NVI Turkey. I have to concur with Patty. The issue with growing large breed puppies is not protein. They need to grow slow and not have too much calcium. HDM has figured out the calcium for us with her list. As for slow growth, they can grow slow on high protein/high calorie foods but you can NOT overfeed them. If they get too many calories and grow too fast then you will run into problems. Regarding how much to feed- yes, you would feed less of a high protein/grain-free food because it has more calories. Those foods tend to be more calorically dense because they have more meat which means more fat and fat contains double the amount of calories as protein. If you fed a grain-inclusive the calories would probably be lower because there are more carbs (from the grains) and less fat. So you could feed more of a grain-inclusive. It depends on the dog. I had a rottie (passed last month from cancer) that acted hungry all the time no matter what food he was eating, grain-free or grain-inclusive. I suspect labs can be the same way. If I were you, I would start feeding the Wellness or NVI Turkey and see how he does on them. If he does well then great! Add those to a rotation list. Then you can try a grain-inclusive like Dr. Tim’s Kinesis and see how he does. If he does well on both types of food then I see no real reason to why he can’t eat grain-inclusive. You can alternate between grain-free and grain-inclusive foods.

That’s my 2 cents. I hope it helps alleviate some of the confusion. Here is a great article about large breed puppy growth by Dr. Karen Becker: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/04/09/slow-growth-diets-for-giant-breed-puppy.aspx I feel like this is a great summary of what this whole thread is about and it explains it much better than I can.

[Tucker]

Thank you Patty… Just when I thought I was good to go I run into the protein debate. 🙁

I went today and got a little bag of Wellness Puppy Core and NV LID Turnkey all on the list. Before I found you guys I had bought a bag of Great Life Chicken. I guess that is not grain free but shows lower protein.

Here is my sticking point. I have read all 59 pages 🙂 and now I am educated and confused as hell lol

My breeder of labs for 18 years was feeding Costco Salmon and Sweet Potato which is OK for puppies on the list but we have the Diamond Food recall issue. On her puppy packet she says, ” we don not fed puppy food because of the high protein in it. Pups and growing dogs do not need more than 24% protein in their diets. A large breed grows quickly and we want to make sure the joints keep up with the growth so no puppy food.”

You are in agreement with that part and the calcium levels are ok with that food. But the protein is low. Does she just not know. She said 18 years and she never has a problem with her dogs on that food. Who is right? The vet put me on Iams puppy lb and he started itching, so she put him on antibiotics and med shampoo. I feel like an idiot for giving him the pills so young but I listened to the dr. Everyone has a different opinion. I just want to do what is best. The amount of research that has been here is incredible and I am so appreciative to everyone that has taken the time to share their knowledge. Alas I feel I find myself in the same place as many newbies… over informed and over confused!

Do I look for a high end food that had the right calcium but lower protein as she says to cover both bases. The Great Life Chicken I have here and was going to start him on before I found you guys is 22%. Not grain free though. I guess the grains keep the protein levels down?

2 of the lower protein on the list get close to what she says and covers my calcium.

Earthborn Meadow Feast is 26%…
Dr Tims Kenesis is 26%

so if I understand… we adjust the quantity to compensate for the extra protein calories with a high protein food so he doesn’t grow to fast? That is what she is worried about. he is a lab and loves his food… wouldn’t it be better to give him a food with less protein and a larger quantity so he can chow down and feel full? or does it not work that way? Am I just filling the belly with wasted or unbalanced calories?

Tucker is a hoover… if I free fed him he would look like a basketball. I don’t think he would stop eating… 🙂

Right now he is 4 months and 32 pounds at last check (yellow lab male) Every vet that has looked at him says he is going to be a big boy! He is not rolly polly now. I think he looks good in the waste and ribs.

Just when I thought I had it… and I am stuck in the mud again. but now with 3 different bags of kibble at home that I am apprehensive to use 🙁

I hope I am not the only person that is this confused. You are all so patient with everyone. Sorry if I am driving you crazy.

But thank you soooo much for the help!!!!

[GizmoMom]

There’s a discussion about food for large breed puppies on this thread.
/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/#post-32766

[Jazz Lover]

I’m confused about which (age group) food to give our 9mo male black lab… should we continue feeding large breed puppy, or switch to an All Stages or simply and adult dog food now?

Jazz is recovering from surgery for elbow dysplasia w FCP. It sounds like there joints fully develop by age 2, but my vet said an adult food is good at age 6-10 mos.

Additionally, has anyone had good results from any specific supplements for similar concerns and age lab and are further in recovery?

Thank you