[steelerfan500]

My dog has started to experience some joint stiffness so his vet has us on a join supplement. I was wondering if I should try to switch his food to one with glucosamine and if so which one(s)? I read that the amount of glucosamine in dog food doesn’t amount to very much. Currently my dog is on Taste of the Wild and has been for 3 years now and is doing quite well, I should mention that he has gluten intolerance so no wheat, corn or soy.

Thanks.

Barbara

[pugmomsandy]

You can buy Yucca and put it on the kibble or in his drinking water. Some products for “fresher breath” contain yucca and also products for joint mobility contain yucca. OR you can give a probiotic (preferrably one that contains multiple strains of organisms) supplement with his meals (capsule, powder, yogurt, kefir). Probiotics help maintain a healthy gut which usually results in less gas. Digestive enzymes will help also to help breakdown food particles since undigested or not completely digested food can cause gas and puppies usually consume more volume of food so more to digest. OR use some dried parsley. I have small dogs so no input on food and they rarely have gas. I’ve been giving them prob/enzymes for a while (not everyday) and they eat a variety of foods and different forms of food. I like your list above. I was OCD like that when I first learned that dog food was not all it was cracked up to be. I’ve probably used about 20 different foods.

[Mom2Cavs]

I’m assuming you mean Springtime, Inc. And yes, I’ve heard of them and have used them off and on for many years. I really like them. I’ve used their Fresh Factors (great whole food vitamin which I like because Lucy hates most things mixed into her food) and I’ve used their Joint Health and their new Advanced Joint chews. They worked great for my deceased Shih-Poo, Desi, who had both rear luxating patellas. And the Advanced Joint worked when Lucy hurt herself once. I’ve also used their Omegas 3-6-9 and liked them, as well as their Bug-Off Garlic chews for fleas. Love the stuff and they always have b1g2 deals…and if you buy so much you can try free stuff.

[momtopoms]

I got a catalog from them in the mail. Has anyone tried any of them? The joint supplements look interesting. Thanks.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi BakersMom –

Unfortunately, if he has hip dysplasia there’s no reversing it. At 11 months old he’s already been through his critical growth phase and reducing calcium levels won’t help. Not feeding a puppy formula wouldn’t have caused this – but all of Taste of the Wild’s formulas are technically “puppy” formulas anyways (they’ve all met the AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages). A variety of factors are involved in the development of hip dysplasia – genetics (probably the biggest factor), over feeding, calcium intake during the critical growth phase (about the first 6 months), activity level (high impact activity during growth can cause hip dysplasia) and probably numerous other factors we aren’t yet aware of. If you do find out your pup has hip dysplasia it’s not the end of the world, there are several actions you can take to help him live a long and comfortable life. If the dysplasia is severe, your vet may recommend surgery – most orthopedic surgeries have a high success rate. Surgery is expensive, but if the dysplasia is severe it will be cheaper to get surgery rather than pay for expensive supplements and medications for the rest of his life. If the dysplasia is more mild, often the deterioration of the joint can be slowed by supplementing with GAGs and pain and inflammation can be controlled with natural supplements such as boswellia, turmeric, omega 3’s, white willow, yucca, tart cherry, etc. It will also be important to keep him active so the muscles around his hip stay strong, making the hip less likely to luxate. Low impact activities like walking and swimming are great for dogs with joint problems. Human supplements are generally cheaper than pet-specific supplements – I would recommend going for something with glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM and also supplementing with an anti-inflammatory such as turmeric or boswellia. Adjust the human dose depending on his weight – for example give a 25 lb. dog 1/4 the recommended human dose, a 50 lb. dog 1/2 the recommended human dose, etc. Give twice the recommended dose for the first two weeks and if you see improvement reduce the dose to half and discontinue the supplement for two consecutive days each week to help keep him from building a tolerance to the ingredients.

[Tuckers Mom]

Hi, need some advice please. I have a 11 month old 60 lb. mix. I’ve been told Lab/Shepherd or Lab/Rotty. He seems to be showing some signs of hip dysplasia, I have a vet appointment at the end of the month. I’ve been feeding him Taste of the Wild for several months now. When I went to the pet store they told me they were out of TOTW Puppy and said there was no problem using the adult since there wasn’t much difference. Did my not using Puppy make a difference? After reading Hound Dog’s list for large breed it looks like I’ll be making a food change anyway. I was thinking about starting him on a joint supplement. Aren’t ones for humans more reasonably priced than for dog. Thanks for any advice.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shawna –

There aren’t any Mercola products that I don’t support – I think they all look great actually. Concerning the joint supplement I feel that while it’s a good supplement, a human product can be purchased with the same or similar ingredients that would be cheaper per dose . Also, the poster that was inquiring about it has a puppy, I feel that the Mercola joint product contains a lot of ingredients which would be FANTASTIC for an older dog or a dog that already has arthritis, but a bit of an overkill for a young dog with no joint issues. I think for a young healthy dog frequent RMB’s or a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement is plenty and a joint product like Mercola’s would be an unnecessary expense.

Concerning Mercola’s overall supplement line – no issues other than price. Coming from someone with large dogs, quality supplements can get VERY expensive. I’m always looking for ways to cut costs and always evaluate supplements on a cost per dose basis. Concerning all “pet” supplements in general (not just Mercola’s), I find that they’re overpriced and the equivalent product can be purchased in “human” form for much cheaper. I’d love to support Dr. Becker’s products but, for example, it would be $105 a month for me to give my three her probiotics and enzymes and it would cost me $10 a month to give my three Swanson’s supplement which has 15 strains of probiotics and 5 digestive enzymes (going off the recommended dosages on both products’ labels). I just don’t have that kind of money for supplements and I’m sure many others don’t either.

[Shawna]

What is it about Mercola’s product that you don’t support HDM? Just curious.

[Mary Lou]

Thank you, Hound Dog Mom ~ I’m going to order it now. I really appreciate all of your knowledge! Sure makes things so much easier! : )

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Mary Lou –

Sorry I accidentally mis-posted the name – that supplement is called “Joint Power Rx,” for some reason I always get mixed up and call it “Joint Care Rx” lol. Anyways, thought I’d clear that up in case you try to order it you’ll know the real name. I think it would definitely be a good supplement to try. The recommended human dose is 4 capsules per day and it recommends 1 or 2 capsules per day for dogs and cats. Because you’ve got a little guy, I’d say start out with 1 capsule per day. If you see a lot of improvement you may be able to decrease that to 1 capsule every other day. I ordered this supplement for my senior awhile back and I gave him 3 capsules per day (he’s 110 lbs.).

[Mary Lou]

Hi Hound Dog Mom ~

Our 6 1/2 year old Bichon was diagnosed with a luxating patella with a grade of 1/2. The vet sells Dasuquin, but he knew I probably would not want to use it with our guy’s allergies. I think I would like to try the Joint Care RX you mentioned. Do you know how much I would give him at 14 lbs? Is there another supplement that you think may work better with this issue?

Thanks so much!!

[InkedMarie]

I’ll get the Medizym for fido then, thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

When I’ve gotten Medizym I’ve used the Fido version – I believe the only difference is the flavor of the coating on the tablets. I have a jar of the Fido right here and I’m looking on the Medizym website and the two products are identical.

My bottle of Medizym Fido lists: 100 mg. pancreatin, 60 mg. papain, 45 mg. Bromelain, 24 mg. trypsin, 1 mg chymotrypsin and 50 mg. rutosid – per tablet.

On their website they list the following for their human Medizym: 300 mg. pancreatin, 180 mg. papain, 135 mg. bromelain, 72 mg. trypsin, 3 mg. chymotrypsin and 150 mg. rutosid – per 3 tablets. If you divide all these values listed by three (to get the value per tablet), it’s identical to the Medizym Fido tablets.

On the jar for Medizym Fido the recommended dosages are 1 tablet for small dogs, 2 tablets for medium dogs and 3 tablets for large dogs. The recommended human dosage is 3 tablets.

[InkedMarie]

HMD:

Did you know there is a Medizym for dogs? Here is the info:

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Tablet
Amount Per Serving
Pancreatin* 26,000 USP-units♦ protease (pancreas) Sus scrofa 100 mg
Papain* 970,000 million USP-units♦ Carica papaya 60 mg
Bromelain* 108 GDU Ananas comosus 45 mg
Trypsin 60,000 USP-units♦ (pancreas) Sus scrofa 24 mg
Chymotrypsin 7,500 USP-units♦ (pancreas) Sus scrofa 1 mg
Rutosid* Sophora japonica 50 mg
*Acetone free extraction process.
♦USP-unit is the measurement of enzyme activity according to the test methods of the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).

Feeding Instructions
Size of Dog Weight of Dog Amount to Feed
Small 13-20 lbs. 1 Tablet Daily
Medium 21-50 lbs. 2 Tablets Daily
Large 51-100 lbs. 3 Tablets Daily

~~~~~According to the chart, my dogs would get two tablets per day, which would double the mg of the ingredients.

Here is the info on the Medizym human:

Adults take 3 Medizym tablets, two times daily, at least 1 hour before meals.
Other Ingredients

Oligo polysaccharides, modified plant cellulose, stearic acid, methacrylic acid copolymer, silica, triethyl citrate, coating blend (maltodextrin, HPMC, triglycerides), natural flavor.

Gluten free, dairy free, no soy allergens.

Contains no artificial colors or preservatives.
Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 3 Tablets
Servings Per Container: 266
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Calories 0
Total Carbohydrate <1.0 g <1%**
Sugar <1.0 g <1%**
Protein <1.0 g <1%**
Pancreatin*** 78,000 USP-units♦ protease (pancreas) Sus scrofa 300 mg *
Papain*** 2.9 million USP-units♦ Carica papaya 180 mg *
Bromelain***324 GDU Ananus comosus 135 mg *
Trypsin 180,000 USP-units♦ (pancreas) Sus scrofa 72 mg *
Chymotrypsin 22,500 USP-units♦ (pancreas) Sus scrofa 3 mg *
Rutosid*** Sophora japonica 150 mg *
*Daily Value not established.
**Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
***Acetone free extraction process.
♦USP-unit is the measurement of enzyme activity according to the test methods of the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).

According to that, the amounts are for THREE of the human ones. Am I reading this correctly that I'd have to use one more of the human ones to get what two of the fido ones would give? If I am correct, the fido ones are cheaper.

[InkedMarie]

Thanks again! Before I order, I’m going to check the dosing/prices for the others you mentioned. They may be “more expensive” to buy outright but if the dosage is less. I have to keep that in mind.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Marie –

Definitely not a stupid question!

If it was me, just to make things simple, I’d give her 2 capsules daily for the first 2 weeks then go to 1 capsule 5 days a week. If you find the 1 capsule doesn’t seem to be helping her enough, you could go back up to 2 and keep her on 2.

[InkedMarie]

I feel like maybe I’m asking stupid questions, sorry if I am. I’m looking at the Swansons Mobility essentials. The human dose is 3 capsules twice a day.
Going by what you say above…..I should give her 1 1/2 capsules to start? Do I do it twice a day or do dogs only need it once daily?
Swansons is having a 15% off sale, today only

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would start out giving her 1/2 the recommended human dose for a couple weeks, then cut her back to 1/4 the recommended human dose. If you use a systematic enzyme you would still want to give enzymes with her meal. The enzymes given with the food would help with digestion the systematic enzyme would be given between meals and help with inflammation. In Europe systematic enzymes are about as common as OTC pain relievers are here in the US.

[InkedMarie]

Thank you, HDM, you’re so smart! Is there a dosage chart? She’s 22pounds. I don’t know how bad her arthritis is, we think she was crated ALOT. Walking her yesterday or 15 min did her in. She is almost ten so it on’t get much better. If I use the systemic enzyme, do I stop using the Mercola digestive enzyme?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi hwballew –

If you go to the review section of DFA and read the reviews for Purina and Iams you’ll see that they are all very low quality foods. Dry food is definitely more convenient, but a balanced home prepared food is the healthiest. By type – from worst to best: kibble < canned < dehydrated < commercially prepared fresh food < balanced home cooked < commercial raw < balanced homemade raw (granted the foods are rated the same). If you want to stick with kibble for convenience reasons, I'd recommend picking out 2 or 3 (or more) 4 or 5 star dry foods and rotating – top the dry food with a quality canned food, raw food or healthy "people" food (eggs, tinned sardines, leftover lean cuts of meat, etc.). Canned foods, dehydrated foods and commercially prepared cooked and raw foods would be a step up from kibble and wouldn't require the time and knowledge that a home-prepared diet requires. These options are more costly than dry, but if cost isn't an issue they'd be a big improvement over dry food. If you do want to home prepare her meals, research first. It's not difficult to prepare a balance diet but it does take some research. There are many great books available with recipes formulated by veterinarians and nutritionists. Dogaware.com is probably the best online resource for homemade diets. The homemade food and raw food forms here have some useful information – my dogs' menus are posted on the suggested menu thread in the raw food forum.

For digestion problems I would supplement with a high quality probiotic supplement, enzymes and a little bit of plain canned pumpkin. Remember, because she's eaten lower quality foods for so long she may experience some digestive upset when you switch foods. These supplements will help a bit – make sure to do a gradual transition.

Is she on a joint supplement? I just posted some supplement recommendations to another poster on the "Mercola Joint Supplement vs. Others" thread under the "Dog Supplements" forum.

Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Marie –

Liquid and powder supplements are harder to come across with human supplements. I’ve seen a few liquid human joint supplements, but nothing I’ve been overly impressed with and they cost about twice as much per dose as non-liquid supplements. I’d recommend powder-filled capsules when buying human supplements (that’s what I get for my dogs). They’re easy to pull apart and you can just sprinkle the powder into the food – you also don’t have to worry about measuring, just count the capsules.

For older dogs already experiencing arthritis, I think a supplement with both joint maintenance properties (glucosamine, chondroitin, etc.) and anti-inflammatory/pain relief properties (boswellia, yucca, white willow, etc.) will provide the most relief.

Some of my favorite joint supplements:

1) Joint Care Rx – Manufactured by Advance Physician’s Formulas. Available direct from the manufacturer’s website and on Amazon. $25.95 for 120 capsules. Contains: glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, cetyl myristoleate, boswellia, cat’s claw, devil’s claw, grape seed extract and sea cucumber.

2) Wysong Arthegic – Manufactured by Wysong and available on their human supplement website. $32.89 for 90 capsules. Contains: boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. For extra support, could be given in addition to Wysong’s Joint Complex which contains cartilage and MSM. Wysong offers quantity discounts.

3) Swanson’s Mobility Essentials – Sold by Swanson Vitamins. $10.99 for 180 capsules. Contains: Vitamin C, Zinc, Manganese, Glucosamine, MSM, Boswellia, Bromelain, Chondroitin, White Willow, Curcumin, Devil’s Claw, Quercetin, Sea Cucumber and Yucca.

Starting on any joint supplement, I’d begin by giving her twice as much as she should get for about 2 – 3 weeks. If you see improvement drop the dosage down to what she should be getting and give the supplement 5 days on/2 days off. Taking two days off per week will help to keep her from building up a tolerance to the effects of the supplement. You can also give extra omega 3’s daily to help with inflammation.

I’m not sure how bad her arthritis in, but you may also want to consider a systematic enzyme supplement such as Wobenzym or Medizym. These are just digestive enzymes but they’re in a specially coated capsule so they aren’t broken down in the stomach. You give them to the dog on an empty stomach and the enzymes help ease pain and inflammation and also boost the immune system.

[InkedMarie]

Patty, it’s hard to tell. I don;t think she ever got much exercise. I admit, when it’s snowy out, I don’t walk the dogs. I have joint issues and am terrified of falling. Today, it was nice out so we drove to a school that has sidewalks around it and walked the dogs. We walked for only 15 minutes or so and she barely made it back. I don’t know if it’s due to the hips or what.

[theBCnut]

I’ve seen the bulldog look on many dogs that are in pain in the rear end. They are shifting their weight forward to aleviate stress on those joints. Dogs with bad hips are only one place where I’ve seen that. It can also be knees, feet, or spine. Does she seem like she has less muscle in the back end compared to what she has in the shoulder area? Good luck in finding what works best for your olg gal!

[InkedMarie]

Resurrecting a sorta old thread. HoundDogMom, what can you advise me for Gemma? To recap, she ill be ten in June, is arthritic, holistic vet doesn’t feel any dysplasia. Her front legs look like bulldog legs, if you know what I mean. The vet sys she sees that with dogs that are kenneled a lot. Oh and she has no teeth. I’ve been using the liquid K9 liquid health but not cheap.
Any recommendations for a human liquid or powder I can try? She is not on nothing for pain but does seem lame after a walk. Thanks!

[BryanV21]

Acana is a good dog food. Hell, it’s MUCH… MUCH… MUCH better than Royal Canin. In fact, I could literally name a couple dozen other brands I’d feed my dog, or recommend to others, before Royal Canin. So right off the bat there’s a problem.

With that said, even if somebody fed Acana or almost any other food but RC, their dog may need a supplement(s) of some kind. Take larger dogs that are prone to hip and joint issues… you may want to add a chondroiton/glucosamine supplement to their food. Or say you have a dog prone to UTIs… add a cranberry supplement to their food.

As for your last eye roll inducing paragraph… just like not all different breeds have the same dietary needs, neither do two dogs that ARE the same breed.

I really shouldn’t need to explain this to somebody with “doc” in their name, but alas…

[DieselJunki]

Thank you for that Hound Dog Mom.

Cate I agree sometimes to much of a good thing can be harmful. I know I wanted to add more Omega 3’s at one point thinking it would help Moose’s dandruff and coat but was advised against it as I was already feeding a food high in Omega 3’s and balanced. Glad I checked before I decided to go ahead and do it and instead was suggested Coconut oil which I now use. I am always careful by nature and usually before feeding him any new supplement I always check in here and do research.

[DieselJunki]

I would supplement with a hip and joint supplement anyways. Especially since you said she was or is having issues.

Here are a few companies that I’ve looked into and I’ve heard of others using.
Welly Tails
Vet’s Best
K9 Joint Strong
Mercola

And also a link to a thread I had started that has good information from Hound Dog Mom on joint supplements.
/forums/topic/mercola-joint-supplement-vs-others/

As far as a food similar to Acana I’m not sure on that.

If it was me I would just find a good dog food high in protein, low in fat (since you said she was overweight) and add the hip and joint supplement instead of trying to find a food you think might have the appropriate levels to support healthy joints along with low fat and high protein. But I am certainly no expert so perhaps others will chime in.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Cate –

I agree, some supplements are harmful in excess. However, glucosamine, chondroitin and hyaluronic acid are very safe supplements. They can be consumed at many times the daily dose with no ill effects. The amounts in food are very low with most having only around 400 mg. glucosamine per kilogram of food – this equates to a mere 30 or so mg. per cup (just to give you an idea – a 50 lb. dog would have to eat over 30 cups of dog food a day just to get a maintenance dose of glucosamine). Dogs that are eating a natural diet rich in bones, cartilage and sinew would naturally be consuming these nutrients in very high levels (higher than anything in dry dog food). I’ve never heard of a dog “overdosing” on GAG’s.

[Anonymous]

Please be careful with supplements as some food and treats have glucosamine, chondroitin, hydraulic acid. Sometimes more is not better and overdoing could have a negative effect.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi DieselJunki –

Glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) are important constituents of cartilage and help to maintain joint function. GAG’s and GAG precursors would include glucosamine, chondroitin and hyaluronic acid. MSM, which is an organic form of the essential mineral sulfur, can be beneficial for joints as well due to the fact that connective tissues require sulfur for maintenance. Cetyl Myristoleate is a supplement that’s recently gained popularity as a joint supplement and has been shown to lubricate joints and maintain function. Whole food supplements that are rich in GAGs are sea cucumber, green lipped mussel, shark cartilage and eggshell membrane. Raw meaty bones are rich in GAGs as well – with trachea, poultry feet and gullet probably being the richest sources. I feel that large/giant breed dogs that are not fed a diet including raw meaty bones on a daily basis should be started on a joint maintenance supplement at a year old (until the dog is a senior or starts to exhibit joint issues the supplement can be given at half the recommended dose). When it comes to joint supplements if you buy supplements made for humans they will be MUCH cheaper per dose. The ingredients used in human supplements are the same as those used in dog supplements so there’s no reason human supplements can’t be used (they’re probably higher quality as well). For a young dog with no joint issues there’s no reason to supplement with every beneficial ingredient under the sun – a capsule of green lipped mussel, shark cartilage, sea cucumber or eggshell membrane or a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement will give enough maintenance support to a young dog free of joint issues. For older dogs or dogs that are exhibiting symptoms of arthritis natural anti-inflammatories such as white willow, yucca, boswellia, turmeric/curcumin, tart cherry and supplemental omega 3’s can be beneficial to give in addition to a joint maintenance supplement.

[DieselJunki]

I know Moose is only 4 months right now BUT I’ve been doing some research about hips and large breed dogs. Doing some Googling I’ve read quite a few people recommend giving a joint supplement even if there are no joint problems in their dog, even starting as young as puppies. Now I have been on a Mercola supplement kick because they seem so well put together and are very well talked about here. They pretty much have me sold on the Hip Supplement but I just wanted to check in here and hear about other people’s experiences with hip and joint supplements.

Now correct me if I’m wrong but when looking for a joint supplement that maintains the hips you would be looking for things with: msm, glucosamine, chondroitin, hydraulic acid.

So far the one’s I have looked into are:
Welly Tails
Vet’s Best
K9 Joint Strong
Mercola

These all seemed to have those 4 things I mentioned up there. Some seemed more for arthritic dogs or dogs that already had painful joints and others seemed better at just being hip and joint maintenance.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumom20 –

I just checked out Big Country Raw’s website – I’m jealous that you can get this food, the price is great! $2.50/lb. for pre-mixed food is very reasonable. I’m not too far from some of the retailers (I’m on the Canadian border) unfortunately I think a law was passed recently making it illegal to transport pet food across the border.

I can’t find a statement of nutritional adequacy on the website and it does appear there are a few things missing that you will need to supplement to make the food balanced. First of all, yes you will want to add omega 3’s as there aren’t any added to the food. Follow the dosage chart I posted previously. Second, after reading the ingredients for each of their foods I can tell you that there are inadequate levels of vitamin e and vitamin d. Vitamin e is difficult to supply in adequate quantities through food alone and therefore should be supplemented. It will be especially critical that you supplement with vitamin e once you start adding omega 3’s as consumption of omega 3’s increases the the fat soluble antioxidant requirement. As a general rule supplement about 50 I.U. vitamin e per 20 lbs. If you get capsules with a high dosage (most come in 200 IU or 400 IU) you can just give one whole capsule 2-3 times per week. For the vitamin d, there is some vitamin d in beef liver (about 50 IU per 4 oz.), but not all of the formulas contain beef liver and even for the formulas that do, I doubt that there is enough to fulfill vitamin d requirements. Vitamin d can be added in supplement form or (more preferably) in whole food form. Some foods that are rich in vitamin d: cod liver oil (~400 IU per tsp.), cage free eggs (~30-50 IU per egg), Kefir (~100 IU per cup), oily fish (amount of vitamin d present varies on the type of fish but sardines, mackerel and salmon are generally considered good sources), some varieties of plain yogurt and cottage cheese are supplemented with vitamin d (check the label). Your dog should be getting about 200 IU vitamin D per pound of food consumed. Also, rotate between all their protein sources – don’t rely on one – this will provide him with the greatest balance. You may also want to consider adding another whole food supplement, I see kelp is is added to a few of the varieties. Kelp is great and supplies a lot of trace nutrients but the more variety the better, especially when a dog is deriving all of their nutrition from whole foods and not relying on synthetically added vitamins and minerals. My dogs get kelp and they also get things like spirulina, alfalfa, wheat grass, bee pollen, chlorella, etc. I switch up their supplements frequently. It says they offer a vitamin/mineral supplement but it doesn’t list the ingredients, you could check that out.

Yes, RMB’s are a wonderful source of glucosamine and chondroitin. Because he’s young and he’s a small breed not prone to joint issues, RMB’s should provide all the joint support he needs for now. I wouldn’t worry about a joint supplement until he’s a senior.

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
So here is the chicken dinner ingredients:
Big Country Chicken Dinner
Ingredients
Ground chicken with bone, beef liver, fruit and vegetable puree. Garlic and kelp.
A complete and balanced meal choice. Protein-max 16%. Fat-min 12%. Moisture-62%. Fibre-2.6%
The chicken dinner has the highest fat, the rest are not over 10%. Of course I don’t really know how to convert it to dry matter basis, I did see how on here but I think my calculation was way off, lol!
Other than the fish I don’t see any fish oil added, would you say to add in the krill oil? I think they want you to feed the fish dinner every now and again, but they use cod, haddock or sole.
I guess I will hold off the joint supplement, do rmb’s help supply glucosamine and chrondroitin? He is getting his first chicken wing for his evening meal! I am so excited, I showed it to him and he wanted to take it so I think he will like the true raw diet! But he is still young with no issues so far, so since he is getting it naturally I think he will be good for now!
Thanks for all your help HDM! He is at me right now for his chicken wing!
And I like your schedule for vaccinating, I think I personally would feel better if he got his one year shots, and then I might titer him at 2 and go from there.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumim20 –

Krill oil is great because it’s low in contaminants and contains a very potent naturally occuring antioxidant called astaxanthin. If the food already has added omega 3’s (fish oil) use the krill oil sparingly because, yes, you can give your dog too much of a good thing. Here’s a dosage chart for fish/krill oil:

-250 mg. daily for toy breeds and cats (1 – 14 lbs.)
-500 mg. daily for small dogs (15 – 29 lbs.)
-1,000 mg. daily for medium dogs (30 – 49 lbs.)
-1,500 mg. daily for large dogs (50 – 79 lbs.)
-2,000 mg. daily for dogs 80+ lbs.

When your dog is on a raw diet that includes bones and cartilage there won’t be as much of a need for a joint supplement because bones/cartilage are full of naturally occurring glucosamine and chondroitin. If you have a senior dog or a dog with an orthopedic problem, however, a supplement may still be necessary. After heavy activity my senior gets a few capsules of Wysong’s Arthegic (my favorite joint supplement). It’s marketed as a human supplement but great for dogs too. Wysong even includes a dosage chart for dogs on their website. It contains boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate.

I personally vaccinate my dogs as puppies (parvo/distemper at 8 weeks, 11 weeks, 14 weeks and a rabies at 16 weeks) and then I vaccinate 1 year after their last puppy booster. I don’t vaccinate again other than rabies every 3 years to comply with law. This is something you need to research yourself and decide what you are comfortable doing with your dog. Some people vaccinate every year, some every 3 years, some like I do, some only do puppy shots and others don’t vaccinate at all. Check out healthypets.mercola.com- Dr. Becker has some great information and videos on vaccinating.

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Thanks so much for your reply! After doing some more research I decided to still go with a premade raw, it is a small company and all the ingredients are human grade, and from southern Ontario. It is called Big Country Raw. I have been looking at supplements and have been thinking of adding Krill oil to his raw. Would this be recommended? They do have a fish dinner, but it has salmon and tuna in it, so I think I would like to avoid that. Should I start supplementing him with Krill Oil? I like the benefits, then I read on another forum here that too many Omega 3’s can be bad too. So I was wondering what you guys think of that? And also do you guys use a joint supplement for your dogs? I have been trying to research on the internet but having been having much luck in whether to supplement or not. He is only a year and a bit, so I don’t know if I should wait to start a joint supplement or if it is beneficial to start him on it young. Also if someone could direct me to the vaccinating thread that would be greatly appreciated(if there is one)! He is coming up to his 1 year shots and I am not sure whether to get them or not, any advice on supplementing and vaccinating are greatly appreciated, thanks so much guys!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sp464 –

I would check out Earthborn – it’s similar in price and rating to TOTW and Canidae but it’s not made by Diamond.

suztzu had a great suggestion with the canned food. Tripett is one food in particular that dogs love – I’ve never heard of a dog that turned their nose up to green tripe. Tripett is just plain canned green tripe so it’s to be used as a topper only, not a complete food. You can take some and mash it up with warm water to make a gravy and completely coat the kibble.

There’s also the option of feeding only canned or a fresh cooked food (such as Freshpet or use a Premix – such as THK’s Preference or Sojo’s) and adding your own fresh meat – dogs seem to prefer these types of foods to dry food, however it could get costly with a larger dog like a great dane.

Are you giving her anything for her joint stiffness? Wysong makes a great supplement called “Arthegic” that has boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate – all powerful natural anti-inflammatories. I use it occasionally for my senior after he’s had some heavy exercise. You may also want to give her some fish oil daily, the omega 3’s act as a natural inflammatory and seniors can benefit from additional DHA in the diet.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi HuskyMom9710 –

First of all, if your dog is 4 years old she can’t develop hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a developmental orthopedic disease that happens during puppyhood. If a dog is going to have hip dysplasia it will have it by the time it’s full grown – however, if the hip dysplasia is mild the dog may not show symptoms until later in life. There’s no foolproof way of preventing dysplasia but responsible breeding (only breeding dogs that have ofa or penn hip clearances), controlling calcium levels during growth, keeping the pup lean while it’s growing and not over exercising the dog while it’s growing can drastically decrease the odds that the dog will develop hip dysplasia.

What are you feeding your dog? A high-quality species-appropriate diet is the foundation of good health. Grains are inflammatory – so if your dog isn’t on a high protein, grain free diet currently I’d look into switching to one.

Supplementing with Omega 3’s (fish oil) can help with inflammation. Some other natural anti-inflammatories are turmeric, boswellia, yucca, bromelian and tart cherry. Digestive enzymes given on an empty stomach can help inflammation (like medizym). Glucosamine, chondroitin, msm and hydraulic acid can help to maintain and regrow deteriorating joint tissue and fluid.

Some supplements I’d recommend:
1) Wysong Arthegic for inflammation (sea cucumber, turmeric, boswellia, devil’s claw, yucca, ginger, red pepper, cetyl myristoleate) with Wysong’s Joint Complex for joint maintenance (contains collagen and msm).
2) Welly Tails Hip and Joint Rx (omega 3’s, tart cherry, glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, hydraulic acid, green lipped mussel).
3) Vet’s Best Advanced Hip and Joint for maintenance (glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, hydraulic acid) with Vet’s Best Muscle and Joint for inflammation (bromelian, boswellia, turmeric, yucca).
4) K9 Joint Strong (glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, turmeric, cetyl myristoleate) – also have a version with white willow for pain relief.

[InkedMarie]

Pug Mom Sandy: the Only Natural Pet joint supplement….I find this:

BIXBI Joint Supplement for Dogs & Cats

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Only-Natural-Pet-Super-Daily-Vitamins–Joint-Support/999066.aspx

In Clover K9 Connectin

did you mean any of those? Yes, I could use a mortar & pestal but to be honest, with three dogs and a cupboard of stuff, I’d just as soon buy one already ground/liquid!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Marie –

Welly Tails has some good supplements you might want to check out. They have a powdered joint supplement which I have used on my dogs in the past and liked – it has glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, green lipped mussel, hydraulic acid, tart cherry and omega 3’s. They also have another supplement (haven’t used this one) called senior dog vitality which has glucosamine, msm, hydraulic acid, green lipped mussel, omega 3’s, digestive enzymes and 6 strains of probiotics. I’m also a big fan of Wysong’s joint supplements – they’re sold for people but can be used for dogs too and come in powder filled capsules, you can just open it up and sprinkle it on the food. They have one called Arthegic that helps inflammation, it has boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. Their other supplement is called Joint Complex and supports the joints, cartilage and connective tissue, it contains proteoglycans, glycosaminoglycans and MSM. I think for a dog with severe arthritis the Arthegic and Joint Complex would be very effective if used together.

[pugmomsandy]

Ground psyllium or coconut fiber per meal for stool: 25# dog – 1/2 tsp, 40# – 3/4 tsp, 50# – 1 tsp. Or you can try pumpkin.

If you give both the salmon oil and coconut oil, the total fat content might affect her stool, so just watch that and just give one or the other if needed.

Dr Harvey’s has a green powder joint supplement as does Only Natural Pet. And there’s also Actiflex 4000 liquid. http://www.coxvetlab.com/products.asp 25-50 pounds: 1 tsp. daily loading dose for 5 days, ½ tsp. daily maintenance dose (Actiflex 4000). The K9 version has “beef flavor” but the horse one does not.

Are you able to grind up chicken wings or feet? There’s some good all natural joint supplement there. Or you could grind up tablets in a coffee grinder or mortar and pestal!! (sp?)

[InkedMarie]

As some of you know, we adopted a 9yr old sheltie on Saturday. She has no teeth and has been eating Grandma Lucy’s PureFormance chicken since she got here. She loves it, thankfully! Since day one, I have been giving her Mercola’s probiotics and digestive enzymes. She was on amoxicillin but got the last one yesterday morning.
These are the other supplements my other two get, in addition to the Mercola products:

apple cider vinegar
salmon oil (I use one by Vital Choice)
coconut oil (one of them gets this)
Bug Off Garlic

Her coat is disgustingly dry: the dandruff just flakes off & rains down to the floor. She is scheduled for a bath on Monday February 4th (or whatever that Monday is). What is best to use, internally, for her coat? Both the salmon and coconut oil? If yes, both daily?
Her poops are pretty soft, which I assume is from the dehydrated food. Should I add some pumpkin to her meals? With every meal? I don’t know if I should attempt to add in a dry food or not, with her having no teeth.
I think she has some hip problems. She’ll be ten in June so can use some type of a joint supplement. Any suggestions for one that is powder or liquid? No teeth, don’t want her to attempt to chew something.
She does have an appt at the holistic vets in three weeks. She has a little hair loss on her eyelids, that and the icky coat have me wondering if she has a thyroid issue but she seems to be at a good weight.
Also, when should I start adding more stuff in? I started putting the Mercola stuff in on Sunday morning.
thanks all!

[Hound Dog Mom]

cakes42257 –

Science Diet Healthy Mobility is junk. You can get the same benefit by feeding your dog a quality food and supplementing with a quality joint supplement. Glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM are all great for joint maintenance, but you may also want to consider adding a natural anti-inflammatory – such as turmeric, boswellia, yucca, tart cherry or omega 3’s.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lab man –

I’m so sorry to hear about your dog, it’s not fun watching your best friend be in pain. I’m a little confused about your post though – you say she’s old and can’t stand on three legs, but that she doesn’t have hip dysplasia and isn’t in pain? I’m going to assume you made a typo and are looking for a joint supplement, otherwise I’m not really sure what you’re looking for.

For a senior dog experiencing arthritis I would recommend a supplement to maintain and rebuild the joints, a pain reliever and an anti-inflammatory.

I think Wysong has the most well-rounded joint supplements I’ve seen. Their “Joint Complex” has a blend of proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans that will help to maintain joints, cartilage, tendons and connective tissue. Their “Arthegic” has several ingredients designed to moderate inflammation and pain including: boswellia serata, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. I have used both supplements myself and also on occasion for my senior dog. Personally if one of my dogs was experiencing severe arthritis issues I would put it on these two supplements or find other supplements with similar ingredients. Natural anti-inflammatories are a much safer option than steroids and NSAIDS that vets frequently prescribe – imo. They can be purchased here: http://www.wysonghealth.net/nsf-health-supplements.php.

I feel it would also be a good idea to start to give your dog a fish oil capsule every day – the omega 3’s in fish oil have an anti-inflammatory effect and the fish oil is a rich source of dha which senior dogs have difficulty producing.

[theBCnut]

I can just throw in a pill and mine will eat it, but one of my whole food supplements also has alfalfa in it. I actually have horses too, so sometimes it’s a handful of alfalfa in the blender with other things as part of my homemade supplement. And at one point I was giving the dogs a horse joint supplement that is sprayed on alfalfa pellets.

[Jackie B]

The vet will probably have a commercial pet cure to sell you… Maybe you should look into a supplement for your pets. Like Solid Gold Seameal (which I use for my dog’s joint, hair, and skin health) or Missing Link (just bought some but don’t have an opinion on it yet). A little extra health boost might prevent some future outbreaks!

[Shawna]

I typed a response out and then lost it — user error UGHHH

I think its a good idea to look for a higher protein food as seniors need more protein than adults and protein is shown to help with weight loss. I’d also suggest trying a potato free food. Potatoes are known to aggravate arthritic issues in some. The protein in nightshade plants, like potato, bind with the fluid in the joints which causes inflammation. This may not be an issue for your pup but better safe than sorry in my opinion. Marie made a wonderful list of grain and potato free foods. It’s in the ingredient forum if I remember correctly.

Some of the foods in Marie’s list may not be high enough in protein but if they are better for the budget you can always add lightly cooked egg whites (high in good quality protein and no fat), boiled chicken, sardines packed in water, high protein canned etc as a topper to whatever kibble you chose.

My girlfriend started her senior dog on a product by Nutromax called Dosaquin. I really dislike some of the ingredients in it but she feels that the benefits are outweighing the negatives for her old lab mix. She’s seen noticable improvement.

I’ve seen a product for joints on Mercola Health Pets that looks great. I’d try this one before the Dosaquin if it were one of my pups. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/pet-joint-supplements.aspx

I would also suggest organic turmeric and the enzyme bromelain. Both have been shown to have a positive affect on arthritic cases — both are anti-inflammatory. Turmeric is relatively inexpensive and well tolerated by most.

Also, check with your vet on the exercise. I had a girlfriend with a similar case with her lab mix. Turns out the extra exercise was doing more harm than good for her pup. Ended up having to do water workouts with him — great exercise but easier on the joints.

[Shawna]

Hi Jess,

I think you are really wise to look for a higher protein food. Senior dogs need more protein than adult dogs. I’d also like to suggest that you consider a potato free food. Nightshade plants, like potato, have been shown to aggravate some cases of arthritis. The protein in potato (called a lectin) can actually bind with the joint fluid causing inflammation in the area (may not be a problem for your furkid but better safe than sorry in my opinion).

Adding organic turmeric (the spice) to whatever food you feed can be very helpful too. Turmeric has been proven to be a powerful anti-inflammatory and quite effective in arthritic cases (needs to be organic as non-organic can be irradiated which damages the spice). The enzyme bromelain has also had positive results.

And, my girlfriend is using a product called Dasuquin by Nutromax for her elderly lab mix. She says she has seen noticable improvements while on it. I’m NOT AT ALL crazy about the ingredients in it but in her case she feels the good outweighs the bad in her senior pup..

Lastly, Mercola Healthy Pets has a joint supplement that looks really interesting. Personally, I’d try this one over Dasuquin. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/pet-joint-supplements.aspx

I’m not sure if any of the foods listed in the link below are within your budget, and amounts of protein vary, but these are all grain and white potato free. (Thanks for making the list Marie!!) /forums/topic/grain-and-potato-free-dog-foods/

If a slightly lower protein food is better on the budget, you can always add lightly cooked egg whites (high protein and no fat), sardines packed in water (good source of anti-inflammatory omega 3 and will increase protein), high protein canned foods etc as toppers to the kibble.

Check with your vet on exercising. My frined had a similar issue to yours and found out too late that the extra walking did more harm than good for her pups joints. She ended up having to use water therapy (great exercise without causing negative impact on the joints).

[Hound Dog Mom]

This is where I saw the Emu oil pet shampoo:

http://www.jefferspet.com/kalaya-emu-oil-shampoo/p/1217/

It has really good reviews, I’ve never used it though.

And this is the emu joint supplement I remembered seeing:

http://www.kalayaemuestate.com/catalog_i848622.html?catId=36316

I would be curious if anyone here has every used these products and has feedback on them. I’d be interested in trying them.