[Naturella]

Lihan, there are many good foods out there. The best thing to do is rotate between brands and also protein types – some well-regarded foods are Annamaet, Dr. Tim’s, Victor, Wellness, GO!, Now! Fresh, Earthborn Holistic to name a few. I don’t think all of them are GMO-free, but they are quality foods nonetheless. You can also supplement with canned sardines, fish oil, coconut oil (those three do wonders for skin and coat), probiotics/digestive enzymes/yoghurt/kefir/canned plain pumpkin, cottage cheese, and if particularly “adventurous” – a raw egg here and there and maybe some raw too or Raw Meaty Bones (RMBs – like chicken wings, legs, necks, backs, pork neck bones, beef ribs, etc.) Or, even some good-quality canned or dehydrated will do the trick! 🙂

Shopping online is usually easy and convenient and websites such as http://www.petflow.com , http://www.chewy.com , http://www.wag.com , http://www.petfooddirect.com , etc. usually have good deals that you will know of if you sign up for their emails.

Good luck, happy feeding and rotating, and don’t hesitate to post any and all questons you have – the crowd on this site is amazingly knowledgeable and supportive.

[Tiffany K]

A treat that does not cause constipation or bowel problems is critical. I have found that many chews or bones, even ones that claim to be easily digestible and premium, can cause my four dogs’ stools to be too dry and triggers straining when going to relieve themselves.

I stopped feeding them commercial treats entirely due to this issue. Instead, I feed them boiled eggs, apple, peanut butter biscuits made at home and carrots. However, when traveling, a commercial, non messy treat that would enhance their health and life experience would “hit the spot.”

[Kristin C]

Recently took our 1 year old to the vet for an underarm rash. They gave her antibiotics and allergen pills for 2 weeks but did not identify the problem. The vet does not believe it is diet related, however she recommended we start feeding her 75% from one source and get a nutrition consult from Tufts. I feed both my dogs a combination of commercial raw (30%) homemade raw (50%) and a small amount of Orijen kibble (15%) plus raw meaty bones 1x per week. The raw is a variety of chicken, beef, duck and turkey. I did a lot of research working up to their current diet and am confused with the varying opinions out there, and now worried about the balanced nutrition. They are both energetic, glowing, and their stools are consistently as they should be. My concern with Tufts is they don’t seem to advocate raw diets and I don’t want to switch them to that much kibble. I can feed both dogs different proteins at every meal, and different brands, and they have no problems I believe because it is all high quality food. I am looking for some dialogue here from a knowledgeable raw feeder to get an opinion on my approach.

[crazy4cats]

No, he won’t have any trouble. The necks actually are more like cartilage than bones.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Nancy-
I totally understand your hesitation. My jaw probably just about hit the floor when I read about posters feeding their dogs chicken bones. Lol! I still have only fed necks, both chicken and turkey without issue. They actually choke more when eating pigs’ ears. When I give them bully sticks, we put them in a vice grip to make sure they don’t try to swallow them as they are such gulpers! The chicken and turkey necks I have bought at our local fancy feed store. They have a freezer full of RMBs and recreational bones packaged by Nature’s Variety, Primal and Northwest Naturals.
Good luck on your adventure!

[pugmomsandy]

I gave chicken wings to my pugs in the beginning and one of them chomped once or twice and then swallowed. He didn’t have any issues with that. He even eats a duck neck in 20 seconds, maybe. The sort of “round” neck bones seem less of a problem (well, less scary for the human) swallowed whole than a linear bone like a wing and chicken necks are quite common in ethnic grocery stores. Shouldn’t have any problem finding those and they’re small, maybe 1 inch wide and 3-4 inches long.

[FreeholdHound]

I’m no help on the price question. Harry doesn’t really tolerate chicken or turkey very well, except the bones it seems. I will eventually try some chicken legs quarters but haven’t gotten there yet.

[Cyndi]

Isn’t that always good, when they are busy with something else and not bothering you? Lol! Good boy Harry! 🙂

Are the kneecaps fully edible? Or are they like the marrow bones, too hard to consume?

[Mary M]

Hello, I have 6 dogs and feed prey model raw. This next week’s menu is:
Monday: Chicken gizzards, raw whole eggs, kefir milk

Tuesday: Pork neck bones

Wednesday: Ground beef, calf liver, whole eggs

Thursday: Chicken drumsticks, kefir milk

Friday: Ground pork, rabbit chunks

Saturday, Chicken gizzards, ground beef

Sunday will start a new menu. I add Alaskan salmon oil and a join supp of glucosamine, chondroitin, & MSM in every day along with coconut oil.

[pugmomsandy]

I suggest topping the kibble she does well on with some canned food to make it more appealing. There are several options in canned foods that are single protein and limited ingredient. You could even make your own bone broth with pork bones.

[pugmomsandy]

My dogs never had an issue with THK, although I’ve only used Zeal. Their stool was a little larger but that wasn’t an issue for me. I didn’t have any “sticks” issue either. My dogs eat bones, so alfalfa sticks probably wouldn’t have worried me. I could see myself using this in some homemade food in a rotation.

[Barbara O]

If you’ll read, I believe they have a digestive enzyme…I feed twice a day also…but I either add in the AM or the PM….He gets his salmon oil in the mornings…I usually give him his glucosamine in the evening…I was giving him Costco pills but he would spit them out so I ordered the dog liquid from Vita Cost…then I discovered I could put the two pills in a jigger of water and they would be completely dissolved by the time I fed…

I rotate my brands….but I always feed grain free to all my animals…including my cats…I have a Maine coon cat and a Savannah…which is a cross between an African cat and a domestic cat…They also get canned food and some Primal..I don’t feed Primal to Roger all the time…because he gets raw bones…If he didn’t get these, he would get some Primal every day…remember, his cousin, the wolf, eats raw meat every day…I’m at work right now but I’ll look at the digestive enzyme I have at home…Toby, my genet, had a case of pancreatitis at Christmas, and I started him on the enzymes after he recovered…I’ll get the name…

I feed the canned Costco no grain dog food mixed in with the kibble, also. It gets a 5…Natural Instinct is wonderful…I fed the grain free by Merrick…can’t think of the name, and he really liked it. I’m feeding a grain free now and I won’t buy it again, but I bought it in a pinch…maybe called Natural Balance…really having to boost it with meat. Tomorrow I will pick up a bag of Costco Grain free salmon….To this I add an egg at each feeding…the perfect protein for both man and beast….I haven’t fed this…my vet said to be careful feeding chicken…you will need to add fat to it…So if I buy Costco, I’ll just buy the salmon or beef grain free and add more protein…since it is a plant based feed…The vet said it is a good feed, though…better than most and very budget friendly…of course, I spend the difference on the things I add…I like Taste of the Wild….it is a 4 and is plant based, though many of the vets here love it…and Danes need to keep watch on the protein due to their size and joints…they grow awfully fast, and Roger is about a year old. He has never had a problem with me just switching brands..no stomach upsets, etc…Just use common sense and ask yourself, would I want someone to switch my diet around all the time? I’ve been taking in orphan animals, raising wildlife, doing wildlife rehab work since I was about 16 or 17, and that’s a long, long time. If I ever learn how to post pictures on this site, will send some before and after pics of the Danes I’ve rescued…and will send a pic of the fennecs and our little Tasmanian monster, Toby the genet.

[Barbara O]

I got several posts on the subject of Primal..I feed the Primal frozen…It is raw meat and veggies…with supplements added. It is manufactured in a facility that passes inspection for human food manufacture…The product is wonderful. I have a small spotted genet that eats it daily. I have mixed it in cat kibble and dog kibble…My friend has a dog that is very picky and it is a big dog…she mixes the duck with the kibble and the dog eats it like candy… I travel with it frozen. If you order it frozen…order as much as you can afford…that way the shipping will be cheaper. Check your local feed stores…those that carry dog and cat food…Also…check with any of your pet shops. I’ve found it in odd places when we travel. When they ship it, it is packed in dry ice…I order organic, grass fed beef for my husband and me and it is shipped from the midwest to hot Arizona in July…always comes completely frozen…ready for my freezer. By adding the Primal to the diet, you are assured of getting everything your animal needs…and you can add your own fruits and veggies to the food…I am assured the kibble, even if it is plant based, meets my Dane’s and genet’s needs…and they both are shiny and healthy. Have been raising and caring for animals longer than many of you have been alive…have a heavy background in animal nutrition in my undergraduate degree plus a few vet courses under my belt as well as human food chemistry courses…have tried to stay up with the research…Don’t believe everything your vet tells you…any vet that tells me how good Science Diet is, I run away from….Am fortunate I have a vet that has taken care of all my exotics and will call over the US getting answers to questions we might both have…have raised raccoon, ring tails, Fennec foxes…had some of the oldest in captivity…due to diligence in diet….both were spoiled pets….a animal fed a well balanced diet with added good oils and digestive enzymes, etc., is one who’s immune system is going to keep them healthy….Remember…corn, wheat and soy are not good for dogs…and raw bones to gnaw on are a blessing…cleans teeth and gives them B vitamins they need….They don’t have people stomachs…they have a straight tube so don’t give them too much variety at a time….They are a carnivore….not a cow…they have teeth for tearing…not for grinding…And….when the diet is high in protein and low in carbohydrate, the back yard is much easier to clean…

[Sharon Buchanan]

Desiree,

The values for BUN are different in raw fed dogs. While your dog’s BUN does seem high, his Creatinine is low normal. Most conventional vets aren’t aware of the different values – I had to share the correct values with two of the vets at the clinic I go to. Here is a great article that explains three values that will be different:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/normal-blood-values-and-raw-fed-dogs/ At their site, they also have a series of free raw feeding videos that should help you keep him on track and you can search their articles for natural ways to address his BUN value.

Since he doesn’t have teeth, you can help supplement his calcium with whole raw eggs. Just crush the shell with the back of a spoon so that the shell is essentially little flat pieces, not totally pulverized. I would also try chicken backs and ribs. I would begin with cutting away the spine and just give him the soft smaller bones. Once his gums have toughened up a bit he might be able to gnaw the spine and neck in order to get his 10% bone.

A proper raw diet consists of 80% protein (heart is considered a protein, not an organ), 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other organs – pancreas, spleen, testicles, kidneys… Except that you might be trying to feed a raw diet based on AAFCO guidelines for commercial food, I don’t know why you’re adding greens and veggies at this point. Are there other issues besides the elevated BUN? Have you been feeding greens and veggies for the entire six months? I would definitely add a digestive enzyme supplement to his diet, probiotics won’t hurt as well. Mercola makes supplements that I and many others have had good success with.

Dogs Naturally Magazine will be hosting their second weekend-long internet conference in the Fall. They have a Facebook page that, if you “Like”, will keep you up-to-date and let you know when you can sign up. I attended the first one at the end of January and will be signing up for this one as well. Additionally, you’ll then have access to a private group of like-minded owners, nutritionists and homeopaths who all respond to concerns just like yours with personal experience as well as professional opinion.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Erin –

You aren’t going to see any dental benefit from feeding ground raw. If you’re interested in feeding raw meaty bones, the mechanical chewing action will aid in keeping the teeth cleaner to a certain degree. However, the only way to ensure optimal dental health is to actually brush your dogs teeth – this should be done at least three times a week.

Price will vary greatly and will depend on which protein source you feed, which cut you feed, quality (grass fed vs. conventional), purchase quantity and your location. I purchase items in bulk from a distributor that supplies grocery stores and restaurants and get things like chicken backs (~$0.30/lb.), turkey necks (~$0.60/lb), chicken hearts & gizzards ($0.80/lb), turkey hearts & gizzards ($0.90/lb.), pork hearts ($0.90/lb), beef hearts ($1.30/lb), etc. etc. All my items come in 15 to 50 lb. cases and I have to order a minimum of 300 lbs. at a time. Purchasing meat at the grocery store would be much more expensive.

If you wanted to work in a little raw for the dental benefits you would be safe feeding a a raw meaty bone a few times a week in addition to the kibble without throwing anything off balance (you’d just want to make sure to feed a little less kibble on those days to account for the calories in the raw meaty bone). Larger dogs do well with chicken leg quarters, chicken backs, turkey necks and pork necks. Smaller dogs do well with chicken wings and necks.

If you want to start feeding 50% raw you’ll need to be sure it’s balanced. I’d suggest checking out the book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown – it includes easy to prepare balanced recipes. You could also use a pre-mix – my favorite is See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix (formulated by the author of the aforementioned book). I like it because it’s reasonably priced and doesn’t add in large amounts of fruits/veggies/etc. like some other mixes do so I have the freedom to customize it more to my preferences.

You may also find some useful information on the raw diet threads: /forums/forum/raw-dog-food-forum/

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Susan]

Hi Shelley, have you tried getting the chicken or turkey necks & getting a big I dont know what its called butchers use them, mallets or cleavers it’s like a big knife but the blade is wider then a knife, you lay the cleaver on the neck on a chopping board & bang the cleaver with ur hand to crush the necks & break the neck bones up a bit also cut the necks into smaller pieces so if she swollows them you have tenderised the necks a bit..

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shelley –

You might find this thread helpful: /forums/topic/eating-raw-meaty-bones/

There’s some videos there of one of my dogs eating RMBs so you can get an idea of what’s normal.

[Barbara O]

I feed Primal chicken…only because it’s the only one Toby will eat…He has done exceedingly well on it..I’ve fed him Instinct frozen but Primal has some veggies in it…this is not a dog…this is a genet…My friend feeds the Duck Primal mixed into the kibble she feeds…it has made a great difference in the dog’s health…It has a rare disease and this food has prolonged the dog’s life…The medicine alone runs her about $200.00 a month…so she’s picky about what she feeds. I cannot say enough good about Primal…and Instinct also..I do Great Dane rescue and all dogs are different…The one I’ve adopted is a triple recessive…he will be prone to skin and hair disorders…so I’m trying to meet this head on…the other Danes I’ve had the past year loved raw veggies, raw bones and their kibble.The woofed their feed down, whereas Roger is a slow eater. Just use common horse sense with your dogs…Make sure they get enough fat as most foods limit this or use an inferior oil…salmon oil is best…they need the DHA…most oils are omega 6 that you find in their feed…just remember…eliminate wheat, soy and corn…these are inferior feeds for our domestic animals..they are carnivores, kin to wolves, and need animal protein…they are not kin to cows…which are omnivores….

[Shelley M]

Hi all, I am a new raw feeder (thanks to reading many many posts on this forum!) and so far my experience has been good…..with one exception……I am the owner of a “gulper” :-\

She is a 13wk old black mouth cur mix. LOVES food of any kind. Currently I am feeding a pre-mixed raw with the addition of RMB (the plan is to eventually switch to PMR and off pre mixed but for now this is what is comfortable for me…..one step at a time LOL)

My question is…exactly how much does she need to chew up the RMBs ? I have given her chicken necks a few times and she bites off chunks and swallows them (I try to hold on to slow her down but it’s not helping much). Even the larger turkey necks are still not chewed up , just bitten off and down the hatch). Are the bones digestible enough to be ok or…..???

Of course I am still in the “omg is this going to send us to the ER” stage so maybe I’m just being paranoid….

[pugmomsandy]

Commercial frozen products have a best-by date on them. But I also buy bulk meaty bones and chew bones and other meats and plain organs so I use them up within a year. Dogs can eat freezer burned items as well. The items with fruits and veggies in them don’t have a very long shelf life even frozen since the enzymes start working on the food.

[Laura P]

Hi,
I’m wondering what the best source for raw meaty bones is? I called a butcher and they only have organs, and not so much in by products (pork necks, chicken necks, etc.). They recommended contacting a meat packer, but wanted to ask what others have done before I go that far. Thanks!

[ella]

I’ve had Ella on a raw diet, using Primal raw patties. The cost is pretty high, about $6/pound, so I supplement with raw meats (chicken pieces with bones, beef, pork, etc.) as well as cooked veggies, like squash, green beans etc.

It occurs to me that I should be able to skip the expensive raw patties and go entirely with human grade meat. Chicken legs are 77cents per pound, I can get scraps of high quality pork chops, both boneless and with bone in, for $1.47 per pound, beef livers are $2 per pound, beef ribs $2.47. So I can give her excellent meat, rather than the ground up, frozen patties.

I live on meat and veggies. IS there any reason a mutt can’t? We’re spending more on the dog to eat than we are on ourselves.

[losul]

Hi Cyndi.

Read your post and sorry to hear about Bailey’s problems. This might be far-fetched, but I’m going to put it out there anyway.

After reading what you are feeding and reading others initial thoughts about thyroidism brought something to my mind. Hypothyroidism, is more often the case and Hyperthyroidism (high thyroid) is pretty rare in dogs. I’m not knowledgeable about thyroid problems, but after some research, I found indications that hyperthyroidism can cause hair loss just as can hypothyroidism.

Awhile back, Aimee (thnx Aimee) brought up a study in which certain dogs that were fed raw diets developed hyperthyroidism-high thyroxine levels (dietary hyperthyroidism). It turns out that these dogs were either eating tracheas and gullets or eating other meats that had the thyroid glands inadvertently ground up with them. Anyway that study much impacted me, and it would never have occurred to me if Aimee had not brought it up. At the time I was feeding MPC’s beef tripe supermix sometimes (it kind of sounds like you are using it, and as a staple?). Anyway, MPC’s ground beef tripe supermix has 10% trachea and gullet in it. I was concerned enough that I inquired to Paul about it a couple of times, wanting to make sure they were careful not to include the thyroid gland in the supermix. I wasn’t reassured that it didn’t have thyroid gland in it, so I quit feeding it. I still buy some things from MPC, but nothing with trachea or gullet, and not chicken products for other reasons. Just got a new order Friday, it even included goat gonads ( ouchee).

At first this study might sound like another raw feeding bash, but I see no real apparent conflicts of interest in it., it has happened with humans also, “Thyrotoxicosis factitia, as this is called in human medicine, has been reported in people eating hamburgers containing ground beef thyroid or eating excessive amount of sausages containing thyroid hormones (Malvinder and Sturge 2003, Conrey and other 2008, Hendriks and Looij 2010).”

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01189.x/full

As I said, it might be far fetched, as it seems like other symptoms might be present if it were hyperthyroidism, maybe even weight loss and hyperactivity. But if you were to get her checked, and it would turn out to be HIGH thyroxine levels….. Also know that if it were dietary hyperthyroidism, it is easily reversable.

Cyndi, there is another possible problem I can see. Are you using the pre-mixes such as SSLL with a complete grind- meat, bones, organs and tripe? Those pre-mixes are really designed to use with muscle meats only- no bones or organs. Alot of folks would say that the MPC beef tripe supermix (if that’s what you are using) is (or should be if in right proportions) completely balanced by itself. I would say it should be very close to balanced, and shouldn’t ever have the full supplementation that you are adding with the pre-mixes, IMO. The pre-mixes add all the vitamins/minerals needed in absence of bone and organs. For just one thing an overabundance of calcium/phosphorus, if you are using bone in grinds with the pre-mixes. You aren’t using cod liver oil also, I hope? I think excessive calcium, especially along with excessive vitamin D, can be a cause of hypercalcemia. Parathyroid and thyroid glands attempt to regulate blood calcium/phosphorus.

Whatever it may be, I hope Bailey gets better very soon!

[Melissaandcrew]

John-LOl. I have the largest size chest freezer you can get, plus a smaller one. the small one houses the marrow bones and ribs(5lb/$3) I think my problem is that I get carried away with things. I grind the quarters and backs as I have major gulpers and I feel its safer for them, so its time consuming. I don’t want to have to break out the grinder three times a month, so I try to do all at once when I can. For ex, at the beginning of the month, I ground up 240lbs quarters. Then next day I cut up 180lbs beef heart into chunks.. I grind quarters every month, but other items I try to get 2-3mths worth of to cut down on days spent prepping. right now, I am making their meals out of what is in the freezer to try and use some of it up as its a pain digging to the bottom to be sure to rotate. Yesterdays meal was ground duck necks, and ground beef. Today is beef heart chunks, liver/kidney mix, ground chicken with their veggie blend(this time sweet potatoe, kale, spinach, dandelion greens and raspberries) a little fish oil/vit e and they should be good.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lilmonster –

Raw meaty bones have a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio, it’s just really high. You can certainly try feeding boneless meat with the See Spot Liver Longer Dinner Mix in the morning and raw meaty bones in the evening – as long as your dog doesn’t get constipated it should be fine. You can also feed a little boneless meat along with the raw meaty bones or alternate between meals of raw meaty bones and something like tripe to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio. I know my girls get constipated if they eat an entire meal of raw meaty bones so I usually throw in a handful of hearts or gizzards. Also, if you’re only feeding the dinner mix for one meal a day and feeding raw meaty bones for the other, I’d highly recommend using the guidelines for puppies (4 tbs. per pound of meat versus 2 tbs.) to ensure that your dog is getting all the nutrients he needs.

I use the Twinlab Daily One with iron. The AAFCO minimum for iron is 80 mg/kg and the maximum is 3,000 mg/kg. So with 10 mg. per capsule, the Twinlab Daily One with Iron poses no risk of overdosing the dog on iron and it provides extra insurance in the event that a meal is too low in iron (which is a distinct possibility if the dog isn’t getting much red meat and/or organ meat). There is little to no risk of overdosing on vitamins and minerals from whole food sources, especially fruits and vegetables. The amount of calcium in the Twinlab Daily One isn’t high enough to affect anything.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Kritterlady]

Love your well thought out questions Lilmonster! In my experience feeding raw to 2 older dogs and one 2 yr old I vary the diet so so as not to cause the problems you mention. As natural scavengers dog benefit from variation. So they eat a variety of fruit and veg in season, eggs when my hens produce well and quality meats with bones in. By feeding clean quality foods, and yes, on occasion quality dog food I have healthy active 11 yr old German shepherd and 12 yr old pit shepherd mix and 2 yr old Doberman. All alergies cleared up and they run the farm like puppies. Also since their food changes regularly there is no pickiness. I continue to read extensively and ask many questions and refine my efforts but the proof is in the vitality of my dogs.

[Lilmonster]

Hi everyone!

Another lurker here eager and (almost) ready to make the switch to raw. Like other newbies, I have so much respect for everyone here for not only committing so much time and effort to their fur babies, but also taking the time to answer endless, potentially stupid questions from nervous dog moms like me! I would never even have known about raw diets, let alone been able to work up the nerve to take the plunge if it weren’t for this forum, so thanks to all of you!

Some background info: My fiancé and I just adopted our little one, Lily, two months ago from a rescue. She’s 41 lbs and the vet estimates her age at around 1, much younger than the rescue thought – her teeth were pretty yellow when we first got her but presumably because she wasn’t given anything to chew on to clean plaque, so they thought she was 2 yrs 8 months (!), which leads me to think she sadly may have been malnourished as a puppy since they were feeding her as an adult. As soon as we gave her bones and chew toys her teeth became pearly white. Anyway, we switched her to Fromm’s Surf and Turf kibble when we got her, but we noticed she started itching more and more. Took her to the vet to ask about the itchiness as well as a suspected UTI, but the diagnosis for the itching was understandably vague. We’re not sure if it’s a food allergy or environmental – she doesn’t have fleas, and we’re pretty sure it’s not a yeast issue. She doesn’t smell yeasty at all and I think the vet would have picked up on that. So after a recent bout of diarrhea due to too many high fat treats after a training session, I figured it would be a good time to begin the transition to raw after her system cleared up. I fasted her for a meal then fed her a mixture of white rice and pumpkin for two meals, which brought her poos back to normal, then began feeding her a 50-50 mix of ground turkey and pumpkin with the See Spot Live Longer mix added in. The vet is holistic and also trained in Chinese medicine, and she suggested that I switch to beef instead of turkey since chicken and turkey is considered “hot” and could be contributing to the itchiness, so yesterday I made the switch to ground beef and her poo was still fine this morning. But then I remembered reading somewhere (I think on preymodelraw) that it’s not recommended to start with beef, but I think for the time being I’ll stick with it just to avoid changing her diet too many times (unless anyone here would strongly advise against starting with beef?). At the moment, her daily food (divided into two meals) is 1 lb 90% lean ground beef + 2 tbsp SSLL + 1/2 tsp hempseed oil + 1 tsp coconut oil (just started adding it) + 1 human probiotic. She is also currently on a one week course of antibiotics for the urinary problem.

I have Steve Brown’s Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet, ordered the Dr. Becker’s book, and have read through many of the threads on this forum but like other newbies I’m getting lost in all the information and feeling as overwhelmed as Cyndi was in the thread where she first started, lol. I’m thinking of sticking to the ground boneless meat with the See Spot Live Longer mix for a bit while I figure out all the supplements that are needed and place my meat orders. A few questions that I’d really appreciate if someone could help out with:

– I know you can’t add the See Spot Live Longer dinner mix to bone-in meats, but am I also correct in assuming that if I begin adding RMBs in the PM and continue to feed boneless ground meat + See Spot Live Longer mix in the AM that it would be too much calcium? Ideally I’d like to continue using the SSLL simply because it’s the easiest way for me to not have to worry that her nutrition is unbalanced while I’m still learning to balance her meals myself. I did see the most recent topic mentioning CarnivoreRaw but that’s a bit out of my budget. Hound Dog Mom, do you use the Twinlab Daily One with or without iron? Also, I noticed the Twinlab does have calcium in it, does that not matter because the amount is so low? If I choose to go the multivitamin route, can I then add other things like fruits and veggies and such without worrying about overloading on a specific vitamin/mineral or will I have to be careful with what I add?

– This may be a bit much to ask, but if one of the veterans has the time to respond I would be so grateful. Could someone make a list of the essential vitamins/minerals (or alternatively, foods that will provide those vitamins and minerals) that MUST be added to a diet that consists of boneless meat in the AM and RMBs in the PM, and the approximate amounts? This is the part I’m feeling especially in over my head with. Vitamin D, vitamin E, fish oil, manganese, so many different things I’m seeing that they need, it’s hard to not feel kind of scared to do it all from scratch, which is my eventual goal. I think I’m having a hard time figuring out what is absolutely necessary vs. optional but ideal.

– So from what I’ve read so far it seems to be a good idea to start her on chicken backs and quarters, then begin alternating boneless meat every other meal. How many meals should I feed the backs and quarters before I begin incorporating boneless meals? Also, should I already be giving her supplements during this time, or should I wait until she adjusts then begin adding supplements. As for stuff like organ meats, heart, and green tripe, how long should I wait before beginning to incorporate those? I promise I have read the other threads, but I’ve seen a few different recommendations on timelines so I thought I’d pose the question again just so I can be clear about it.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to take the time to answer my questions!

[fey W]

Raw is less wasteful, cheaper and much easier. On raw the dog gets to eat zero carbs and chew on bones to naturally keep teeth clean and possibly sugar levels more stable. It is low in ingredients so perfect for allergy prone dogs.

My dog is currently eating cooked food. I had to cook up a whole chicken and bone it, cook up pork and chop those meats, cook up hamburger and rice and mix together along with a small amount of liver and add in a calcium source, some bits of this and that to balance the diet. Then I had to go back to the original amount of raw ingredients to figure out how many meals that would be and divide accordingly so I won’t over/under feed her pack up in 2 day packets and freeze. On raw I give her boneless red meat and every 2-4 days she gets a bit of raw bony meat plus organ along with the same supplements I have to give her with a cooked diet minus the calcium of course. She loves it all but sure has more enjoyment from the raw.

Never heard that dogs get snappy if taken off raw. Many dogs get possessive of raw bits so practicing trading is a great idea. Many people only find out their dogs can be possessive when some delicious raw bony thing is given, even rawhides, bully sticks don’t have the same value.

My lucky never ever had any parasites from raw feeding or fleas or ticks or contaminated water, Sassy once got a tapeworm from eating a flea. Raw meat from the store is very safe. I have always cooked raw meat and it is very easy to keep juices contained and the kitchen clean, lots of water and soap.

A great primer on raw feeding is here.
http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com/prey-model-raw.html

[desiree s]

hi,
i converted my 8 yr old papillon to raw food about 6 months ago.
However his recent blood test showed extremely high kidney BUN readings of 41mg/dl and low creatinine readings of 0.4mg/dl.
My vet has always been against raw feeding and instructed me to immediately switch to a low protein renal kibble diet.
However, after much calculation i realised my raw home made diet only has about 15% protein..
Here is the recipe i use for 28 days of food:
Raw chicken breast and minced 1878g (56%)
Raw beef minced 336g (10%)
Canned green tripe 390g (11.6%)
Chicken heart and liver 252g (7.5%)
Romaine lettuce, red bell pepper, carrot 504g (15%)
Topping of steamed pumpkin or sweet potato.
2 tspn ground egg shell
(No bones given as he has no teeth and refuses to try and chew bones)

As he is fed about 120g of food each day, i calculated his protein intake from above should be about 18g.

Am really confused as he is extremely picky and loves his raw food but his blood test results show such risk of kidney problems that i am afraid to continue with raw feeding too!
Is there something wrong with my recipe?

[tapiskootskiyas t]

Aw.
Your love for your dog is so beautiful. I see commitment.
I know some vegetarians that wouldn’t feed their dogs any kind of real meat or dogfood with meat and/or meat bi products in it.
In most cases these people did more harm to their dogs to the point that some actually died of malnutrition.
My dogs are all fed meat and meat bi products.
Actually the whole animal. I feed my dogs the same diet as wild wolves.
Omnivore that is 90% carnivore.
I made a mistake this spring and bought 2 pallets of commercial dogfood.
Thought I would save some time and energy.
Wrong!
Back to feeding animals to them.
I utilize everything, bones, hide, head, hair/fur, the whole works.
I don’t worry about the bones too much. I break the leg bones and the dogs eat the marrow(avtually, so do I).
The joints are a good gnawing tool to keep them kinda preoccupied.
I just make sure that they don’t that piece of pliable bone from a chicken’s leg or the ones from a turkeys leg. Them bones are like baleen that was used by some hunters to kill their carnivorous and/or omnivorous prey such as bears and wolves. It’s rolled up in fat and cooled. When ingested it warms and the bone springs open in the stomach and guts and pierces the walls causing great pain and.. well.. I think you get it. Well in a chicken’s leg, them little springy bones that look like a toothpick with a knob on the end do the same thing.
The only thing my dogs don’t eat from the larger animals(& rabbits,& fowl)is the contents of the last three feet or so of the large intestine(just before the anus).
Wolves are the same. Their is a good reason for this behaviour but I think thisost is blossoming into a novel… again.
I like fish because they can be frozen and fed whole. Complete diet in a neat totally biodegradable package.
That all being said, my dogs are all huskies. Amazing teeth and stomachs. Not unlike wolves.
I hope this helps clear some of the confusion about bones.
TTFN HAGD

[DogFoodie]

I’ve never had my dogs anal glands expressed.

When Sam, my Golden with food intolerance issues, has a reaction to a food he’s eaten, his anal glands will start to smell strongly and sometimes he’ll have some loose stool. He’s even scooted a couple of times. Even with that, once the offending food is removed, the situation seems to correct itself fairly quickly.

My guess is that the diarrhea caused the anal glands to become a bit inflamed and probably would’ve resolved fairly quickly on their own when the stool returned to normal. I would probably add a little bulk to his stool with some chia seed or pumpkin or try some THK Perfect Form or Firm Up! You could also try some raw meaty bones; ie: a chicken wing for dinner. The inclusion of some bone usual helps stool firm up, too.

Are you certain the diarrhea was caused by something he ate off of the ground?

[Marcus P]

Hey All,

Wondering if anyone can help out. I am looking at getting a new Mastiff puppy and dont know what the best food choices are for a giant breed. I do know that the breeder has been feeding him Victor Super Premium since 7 weeks. He is now around 8 weeks. From my research on the Forums so far I have found that the calcium levels in this food may be to high? I was looking at Earthborn Holistics (meadow feast and/or costal catch). Is that a good substitute for the Victor, or am I way off base? Is it necessary to add anything to the dry food like some kind of wet food? Also, I had always believed that big dogs should be fed from elevated bowls, but I have found that this may also not be the case as it may increase the chance of bloat? Due to the need to regulate a giant breed dogs calcium intake what type of treats and bones can they have? Is there anything I am missing that I also need to know about feeding a giant breed? Sorry about all the questions, I just want to make sure I do right by the little guy and he is with us for as long as possible. Thanks for any help.

[banditsmom]

Hi everyone,
I’ve never given RMBs to my dogs before but from what I’ve read on here they’d really like them. I’m still a bit hestitant. I have 2 beef neck bones that I’d like to give 2 of my dogs but I don’t know if they are OK. The dogs are a 13yo Lhasa 16lb and a 2yo Chi 10 lb.
What do people think? Is it OK? Thanks

[Ping C]

Hi Rawfeeders

I’ve been feeding my puppy raw for 2 1/2 months now and she’s doing well on it.
Gaining weight steadily, good skin/hair/teeth etc. She’s now 5 months.

She gets mainly Pork, Beef and Chicken..mostly meat/ some bones/ some organs…very occasionally some Mutton, Lamb, or Duck

I’ve tried giving her pork ribs/ Mutton bones/ beef ribs over several occasions, she’ll eat the meat, chew on the bones a bit but leaves most of the bone behind, . I’m guessing they are too tough. She’ll eat ALL/ANY of the chicken bones.

My question is : If chicken bones are the bulk of her Bone/Calcium content, is this going to be nutritionally deficient over time? Does she need to eat bones from Beef/Pork/Lamb etc?

thanks in advance for your reply,
Ping & Luna (singapore)

[fey W]

I always feed my lucky three times a day.
Usually feed the natural foods include fresh human-grade raw meat (e.g. raw lamb), raw meaty bones and vegetables. Dr. Harveys is also my daily choice.

[Ashlee S]

Hi, I’m new to the forum. But long time dog owner. I currently have three large dogs. I know all of my dogs would benefit to a raw diet but I’m lost on where to start. My dogs are currently fed on taste of the wild. I’m more than happy to research a lot on my own but I could use some help on where to start. What to feed? How much?

Here’s a little info on my dogs, if it might help.

Cookie who is the oldest is turning 12 years on the 24th, she’s a female Labrador weighing around 65 pounds. Cookie is overweight, she has cancer and arthritis. She can’t walk far distances and isn’t comfortable swimming any more, so exercise isn’t the easiest way to her weight off. Cookie, although overweight she doesn’t eat much. She is a retried mom who quickly gained the weight when she was spayed late at the age of 7 years. And I have yet to get her weight off. Although she has cancer and arthritis she is active for her age and condition. She’s fine with small walks around the block but anything more she limps her way home.

Mia, is my female bloodhound. Mia is 6 years old,she has a long chronic past of yeast infections in her ears which have significantly gone down since switching to TOTW. Mia’s a very active girl. It’s very easy to control her weight, compared to my other two dogs. She does eat A LOT but she never strays from her weight too much. Usually a steady 85 pounds. She’s eating 3 1/2 cups a day of just kibble with occasional raw cow bone

Bentley is the hardest to keep his weight. He is currently overweight, I’m getting his weight down right now by cutting back his food and feeding vegetables and raw cow bones recommended by his vet. Bentley is a heeler/hound/lab mix. I adopted him back in August of 2013. He’s a year old. He’s closer to the size of a heeler than anything but weight wise he’s a hound/lab. Last time he was weighed he was 63 pounds a few weeks ago.

I exercise my dogs daily besides cookie who can’t handle daily walks. I take them swimming at least once a week and hiking once a week but they get daily walks and runs. So lack of exercise isn’t the problem it’s balancing their food.

I know I need to make this decision on my own but there’s no problem with suggestions. If you could help steer me in the right way you suggest would most benefit my dogs I would greatly appreciate it.

And also if you could estimate on monthly costs, I would greatly appreciate it. Or Estimate on how much to feed so I could estimate the cost. But would GREATLY appreciate any links or forums you know of where I can start my research in raw feeding that would be great. 😀

Thanks!

Just for a reference of my dog’s here is a picture
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy312/bloodhound74/10269495_10204245391361703_3714956536614035392_n_zpsaecdda73.jpg

[crazy4cats]

Sarah-
Yes, you could get them from the butcher. Or, our feed store and Mud Bay sells an assortment of bones, necks, backs and such. They are packaged by various companies such as Nature’s Variety.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Lisa,

Chewy can survive on canned food alone. It’s far better for him than kibble is also. Kibble cleaning the teeth is a myth anyway. The best way to clean his teeth is with a toothbrush or by feeding raw, meaty bones or recreational bones.

I have a dog with some food intolerance issues and a bit of a sensitive stomach. He occasionally vomits bile when his tummy gets very empty. It sounds like your pup has the same problem. You could try adding a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar, diluted 50/50 at a minimum to his food. ACV stimulates the production of hydrochloric acid and tells the spinchter at the bottom of the esophagus to close so the bile stays put.

You could also try three small meals per day or, if that’s not practical, give him a small snack a couple times per day to avoid his belly being empty for too long.

Oh, and if he has trouble with transition. Do it slowly. Only increase the amount of the new food and decrease the old when his stool is firm. A spoonful of plain, canned pumpkin will help regulate intestinal water and add bulk to the stool. It usually helps very quickly, and most dogs seem to really like it.

[InkedMarie]

Sarah, raw bones don’t splinter.

[Sarah Y]

with the rib bones wouldn’t they splinter off? I might be too afraid to try that. We have done bully sticks. The only problem is with one beagle, she is a senior, has lost 4 teeth, and can’t chew bully sticks well. we have done tendons before and that seems to work.

I haven’t heard of Whimzees before. You reminded me though….there is “Get Naked” dental chews and we have had success with those. I am going to try and see if I can find them again.

[Lisa C]

I’m sure this has been talked about numerous times on here, but there’s no search box to try and find answers in the forum. Sorry!

We have had our Chewy since December of last year. We got him at eight weeks. He is a Pekingese/Chihuahua/Cocker Spaniel/ mix (we did a DNA test!) So he’s not quite a year old yet, but later in the fall he will be. The first month or two we had Chewy, he had no problems. We fed him dry puppy Nutro (the pink bag) that was recommended by someone who claimed to have researched foods. after the first 1-2 months, he started vomiting EVERY day. At least once a day. It’s now mid-July, and yes, he still vomits EVERY single day! I think there’s maybe been six total days since Feb that he hasn’t puked at least once. We’ve had numerous tests done at the vet. Blood tests, X-rays, stool samples. Everything is negative. They have no answers for us! The next step would be putting a camera inside him — which I’m sure is an expensive procedure that I cannot afford. He acts normal – he still loves to go outside and play, gets excited when we come home, plays with toys. But he always acts so hungry. We’ve tried so many different kinds of foods, wet and dry. At the vet’s request, we tried two different brands of prescription food (dry only), (which is expensive) 🙁 first Hills and then the Purina RX. The vet also made me buy the $30 box of RX Purina probiotics. None of that fancy overpriced crap did anything but make him vomit even more, and even worse, all undigested.

This week I’ve started to keep a daily journal of everything he eats, and his daily puking habits. The vomiting occurs in the early mornings. Occasionally at night, but mostly mornings. He seems to do alright on the Nutro Puppy Chiot wet food, last week he went maybe 1-2 days without puking on that alone. But I know he can’t just live on wet food, at least from what I’ve read they also need dry food for their teeth. For a few weeks we tried feeding solely cooked chicken, which is LOVED, but still puked out that, too. The other problem is obviously is switching the foods so many times gives him baaaad diarrhea. Yesterday I decided to try yet another food, Solid Gold wet, and going from the Nutro can to that has made him diarrhea two days in a row. We have to keep him locked up in the kitchen the last two nights because he just won’t stop pooping. Of course most of the time his poops are normal, but every once in a while that one food will tip him off and it’s all downhill from there.

I’m so, SO tired of waking up early every morning to scrub vomit off of our apartment carpet. (It’s already ruined.) but most importantly, I just want Chewy to be a normal, healthy dog, and not have such horrible vomiting problems. and of course because of this, you can feel all his bones. We recently took him to get groomed and they said they noticed he was really skinny. He’s skinny because he vomits every day! My boyfriend says we should try him on a raw diet, but I don’t want to do something too drastic without help first. I guess our next step could be getting a second opinion at a different vet, but we’ve already spent a lot of money. I appreciate ALL comments and suggestions. Please help us and our Chewy 🙁

[aquariangt]

I like rib bones top. I also use a brand called whimzees about once a week

[InkedMarie]

Yes, beef rib bones!

[crazy4cats]

Hi Travis-
Sounds like you have your hands full! You could always rotate between the Zach’s kibble with a grain free kibble to keep your costs down. I’m rotating between Victor grain free and a grain inclusive brand right now. Another thing besides the raw meaty bones that Besty suggested, you could add an egg or a sardine to their kibble a few times a week to boost their diets a bit. Eggs are a pretty cheap addition! I add sardines once a week and eggs twice a week to my dogs’ meals. I also add a few Northwest Naturals frozen raw nuggests a couple times a week. That is a a little more expensive though. I wish you well on your quest!

[DogFoodie]

Hi Travis,

I couldn’t tell if you had already looked for a local retailer of Victor products or not. I live in the Chicago area, but my friend is in Texas and when I was looking for a local retailer for her I was shocked to see there were lots of them. Lots. Not to pester you, but do check and see if you might have a retailer near you. Click on the tab in the black bar at the top of this page that says, “find a dealer.” http://victordogfood.com/

Also, something you could consider would be supplementing your dog’s diet with raw, meaty bones as an introduction to raw food. Something as simple as a turkey neck in place of a meal of kibble. And, if you keep the extras to no more than 20% of your dog’s diet, you don’t have to worry about throwing off the nutritional balance of the kibble. I don’t feed raw full-time because of my schedule and it worries me far less when I know I’m feeding it less than 20% of the time. Here are the forum search results for “raw, meaty bones” or RMB’s as they’re called: /forums/search/raw+meaty+bones/

[gmcbogger38]

I would just like to get some opinions about a dog food made locally (within 10 miles) around where I live. The food is a limited ingredient diet and they have different protein levels. Lowest is 21% protein and highest is 28%. I can’t copy and paste (dang phone), but I will list ingredients exactly as written on their website: Meat and bone meal (beef/pork/bone), whole corn, chicken fat, mineral and vitamin packet. It lists all of the minerals and vitamins, but I didn’t want to write those all. Now, I know “meat meal” listed as ingredient is not necessarily good because you don’t know what it is, but this does list beef and pork, so technically it’s not an unnamed meat meal. I don’t know much about bone meal, but why is that considered a bad ingredient? Raw fed dogs eat bones. I’m not too worried about the corn, as my dogs have done fine with corn in foods. The reason I would like to get opinions about this food is because I am on a tight budget until I am finally done with college (less than 10 mths). I have not contacted the company about the price, but from what I’ve heard (couple years old) the food is 50lbs for around $20, which they do no advertising, besides website, and have plain bags. I know it is not the best food and I am doing a rotational diet, but I just need to find some more affordable foods to rotate with, for now. Thanks for any input!

[InkedMarie]

The only problem with Reel Raw is delivery times, sometimes. I ordered 30 beef rib bones today & the email for delivery said July 24th. I’m ok with it, I know if I NEED food, order well in advance or order from Hare!

Glad you’re ordering from them too, Ali!

[InkedMarie]

Yes it was me who uses a Reel Raw. In fact, I just ordered 30 beef rib bones, free shipping!

[pugmomsandy]

No, it would not be too much fish with added sardines. Just like it would not be too much chicken if you added some real chicken as a topper for a chicken kibble. As far as the large portions are concerned, that’s where a big freezer comes in handy and a grinder. You could purchase various meaty bones and cases of organs and muscle meat and then use them according to the recipe you choose. X lbs of necks, X lbs muscle meat, X lbs organs, etc. Or you could start with a Premix where you only add in muscle meat (ground chicken or beef or pork, etc) and the Premix and some oil. The Premix has vitamins. When I order by the case, I prefer 2 lb chubs over 5 or 10 lb chubs but I have small dogs.

[RescueDaneMom]

I started feeding raw as a topper then went 50/50 then switched to full raw. Some dogs can handle kibble mixed with raw and some can’t. If yours can’t, then you can do kibble for one meal and raw for another meal.

With smaller dogs, I would guess that it will probably be easier for you to feed grinds. You can purchase a cheap grinder on Amazon. I just did this recently and got a good grinder for under $90. It grinds chicken bones with no problem. Turkey bones are too hard for small grinders so you can’t grind those or beef bones. The only bones I’ve tried thus far have been chicken. You may also be able to get already ground meat/mixes from your co-op.

You may want to look into purchasing Steve Brown’s book called “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” There are raw recipes with and without bone and he specifies what you need to do if feeding a puppy.

Hope this helps.