[poodaddy]

Don’t we all simply want to have an application that we can enter our specific food items into and instantly get the following: Macro Nutrient %s, Major Mineral mg and %s, Minor Mineral mg and %s, Vitamin mg and %s, Fats and Fatty Acid mg & %s ? Then wouldn’t it be uber sweet if that app provided a variance listing of all the above from the industry accepted minimum and maximum standards? Then, it would be too much to ask, but we can hope nonetheless, for that app to suggest foods that could balance the menu.

[poodaddy]

Or,… alternatively, anyone can take matters more into one’s own hands and start down the path of knowing what is a properly formulated raw canine diet. Easy to say but requires effort. You will be amazed at the power (applied through knowledge) that nutrition science overlaid with the love of your canine companion will bring you.

If so inclined, look up some of my posts and if you are interested in what you see, send me a note. The only feedback I have received on anything is from Anon and Dr Sagman (through LinkedIn) but no substantive discussion is occurring on this forum (with my project).

One approach to take is first gaining some understanding of the canine digestive tract, what its chemistry is designed for versus versus our human ones. Then we started on the personal education of what is kibble, how is it manufactured, then studied up on canine obesity so we understood some of the connectivity, then moved into macro nutrient profiles and learning from Vets specializing in canine nutrition what the macros should range in. Then we started down the road of raw food experimentation on a small scale which led us into planning, designed, manufacturing 100% canine raw menus and food for (our) dogs. The path traveled has been an incredible journey and still continues, albeit we are now in the last 1%-2% of the original project to implement a raw food model so we knew exactly what was in the menu and could correlate causes and results.

[poodaddy]

For those interested in a dialog based (solely) on verifiable nutrition science behind canine raw feeding, with zero anecdotal influence, please view the related posts I have made in several of the areas related to questions being posted about “home-made”, “raw”, “menus”, “grinders”, etc etc etc.

We just completed our second annual physical for our two dogs along with a lengthy discussion about the Vet’s prior diagnosis over a year ago, updating that diagnosis, and the entire documented changes in our two dogs’ health that is backed up with detailed data of diet, canine nutrition, and facts. Our Vet is closely aligned with other Vets who have specializations with canine nutrition HQ-based in Los Angeles, and the bottom-line is our Vet has asked me to engage with those Veterinarian nutrition specialists, (solely) due to the nutrition model’s database, algorithms, real application by dog owners, AND the documented real outcomes in canine health experienced in the first year of an on-going practical application of moving from commercial dog food to (personally-researched, designed, prepared, fed) diet. I was also asked if I could make the model available (and that answer is of course no), but will be sharing with her (our primary Vet), the basis of database, calculations, metrics, and peripheral outputs such as charts, trends, and nutrition factors that get applied.

No gimmicks, no opinions, no conjectures, no debating, just application of nutrition science, nutrition data, and a 100% commitment to facts, results, and demystification of conflicting data and information.

[poodaddy]

All (100%) of our canine-related issues (digestive dysfunctions including stools consistency, on-set of periodontal disease, anal gland operations, ignorance of canine nutrition) vaporized when we made the decision and committed to stop feeding commercial mass-produced dog food and committed to raw food AND regular teeth brushing.

[poodaddy]

For anyone interested, KevinB included, made some time to do some modifications, for”other than raw food”, to the Canine Nutrition application (in development) and the below is the output. Note that since I have still been unable to get a response from the manufacturer of Prosense Vitamins (Dale) (see above), I have not included any contribution to the diet of KevinB’s menu. Here is the output. What is not included below is a comparison of the menu to a standard, such as FEDIAF Nutrient Guidelines Canines or AAFCO Nutrient Requirements for Dogs as such, the below stops short of “analysis”. Copying data from Excel into this web page is problematic. Perhaps someone can instrucvt me on how to do it so the data stays aligned and tabular. Each of you can assess the menu now based on the nutrition science data for the food groups listed. All data was taken from nutritiondata.com which uses the USDA tables as the foundation. I have not yet found an instance where nutritiondata.com foods did not align with the USDA testing/data. I have QA-checked about a hundred (80%) and so far 100% checks with USDA databases.

FOOD GROUP Weight g %
ORGAN-MARROW 226.7960 3.89%
MUSCLE MEAT 3095.5520 53.16%
VEGITABLE/FRUIT 2501.1560 42.95%
OIL (Supplement) 0.0000 0.00%
MACROMINERALS (Supplement) 0.0000 0.00%
MACRONUTRIENTS g per day % per day
Prot 73.3489 53.40%
Carb 41.8999 30.51%
Fat 22.1016 16.09%
kcal (449 calc) 650.3830
kcal (ref calc) 670.3673
MACROMINERALS mg per day % per day
Calcium 220.2701 3.78%
*Phosphorous 490.8865 8.43%
Magnesium 114.1447 1.96%
Potassium 536.6109 9.21%
Sodium 152.5461 2.62%
Chloride 0.0000 0.00%
MICROMINERALS mg per day % per day
*Zinc 17.9585 0.31%
*Copper 0.6985 0.01%
*Iron 7.6319 0.13%
*Selenium 0.0901 0.00%
Iodine 0.0000 0.00%
Manganese 1.8323 0.03%
Chromium 0.0000 0.00%
Cobalt 0.0000 0.00%
Fluorine 0.0014 0.00%
Molybdenum 0.0000 0.00%
Silicon 0.0000 0.00%
Sulfur 0.0000 0.00%
VITAMINS mg per day % per day
Vitamin A 1.4918 0.03%
Vitamin B1 (Thiamin) 0.2384 0.00%
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 0.6905 0.01%
Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 6.6424 0.11%
Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 2.8011 0.05%
Vitamin B6 (piridoxine) 0.7010 0.01%
Vitamin B7 (Biotin) 0.0000 0.00%
Vitamin B9 (Folic Acid) 0.0328 0.00%
Vitamin B12 (Cobalamin) 0.0014 0.00%
Vitamin C 1.9644 0.03%
Vitamin D 0.0003 0.00%
Vitamin E 1.8694 0.03%
Vitamin K 0.0220 0.00%
Choline 243.2345 4.18%
FATS & FATTY ACIDS mg per day % per day
Polyunsaturated Fat (Omega-3) 439.6228 7.55%
Polyunsaturated Fat (Omega-6) 5010.4205 86.04%
Saturated Fat (g) 6.8897 0.12%
Monounsaturated Fat (g) 5.7914 0.10%
Polyunsaturated Fat (g) 6.1491 0.11%
Cholesterol 425.9580 7.31%
DATA & METRICS
Dog weight units lb
Dog weight 27.5
MERF 1.4
RER (kcal/day/dog) 464.5593
MER (kcal/day/dog) 650.3830
kcal/batch 8130.6591
Days/dog/batch 12.5013
Weight Batch g (no bone) 5823.5040
Weight Bone g 0.0000
Batch g per day per dog 465.8303
Ca:P 0.4487
Fat:Prot 0.3013

[poodaddy]

Hi Virginia D and others. Here is our story on this specific issue of dog gas. I hope it reveals some aspects of the nutrition side. First, the advice about exercise can be 50%+ of a solution with any dog since all dogs are to some degree “athletes” that NEED exercise; exercise is not just cardiovascular but also depending on the breed can resolve many other issues that do not “seem” to be related, such as anal gland functionality. Now, I am neither a vet, nor a certified anything, but I have been a field dog handler and student of canine performance for a very long time, now using some skills to start my understanding of canine nutrition science.

Before my current two cockapoos, I had a yellow lab raised from birth as a field dog (and household pet). He lived a long healthy life and I want to share with you and others on this posting, the experimenting I did with my yellow lab AND recently (less than a year ago) with my two cockapoos. I decided to figure out in both cases (my yellow lab diet) and the two poos diets, what would happen to their digestive tract, specifically in the generation of gas, if I kept all other factors as constant as possible. What I did was figure out what percentage of their diet was protein from their kibble and then I moved them into a kibble/raw diet and stabilized the protein at 50% for a while. We raised the protein percentage in about 5% increments starting at 50% until noticeable gas started, then we leveled off to ensure it was constant. Then I increased it more until just shy of 80% and the gas creation (making sure all other things were held constant) was amazing (from a biological view). I had some old notes from my yellow lab days that I needed to convince myself of with the two poos and the results compared favorably. The nutritionist readers will have LOTS of variables that contribute to this and I would probably agree with them all, such as some combinations of foods work together to control the chemical processing in a digestive tract. For this little experiment we did, we simply wanted to know how did our dogs’ digestive tracts react to protein percentage (period) nothing more sophisticated. And we found that percentage for our specific cases that correlated for one yellow lab and two cockapoos. That result was when we reached 80% protein % from raw meat where raw boneless chicken was 60% and raw red meat was 30%+ (the remainder of protein was from other non-meat ingredients), the gas production increased rapidly.

For the testing period, and menu stablization, we used these macro goals: Protein 60%, Carbohydrate 20%, Fat 20% and then increased the protein using boneless chicken until gas started and then continued increasing it to see if there was more production and there was a correlation. By the way, body builders and most human athletes have a similar issue with protein in their diets.

So, the other comments made about overeating are on solid ground if feeding a yellow lab from kibble where the lab will eat whatever amount is placed in front of them. My reading suggests that some canines will eat low protein foods until they get the protein they need which some authors suggest that this contributes to canine obesity. The point is, some of the comments above are right on in that there may be a correlation with your lab and the amount of bulk he/she is intaking compared to feeding times and exercise.

For this post though, I wanted to share with you that for one small item in a controlled environment, we proved that changing one item (protein % using raw chicken as the variable in an otherwise balanced diet), caused the onset of gas and continued to increase as the protein % increased. Here is the makeup of the most recent raw diet our two dogs are on. These ingredients are part of an integrated nutrition model that is in development. This the first time I have shared this data but it is nearing time to engage the nutritionist forum posters. I am providing this data primarily so you know the above is not some quacked out post. This was a real experiment and perhaps the results and posts will help you (and others) where gas is an issue. All numbers are in grams weight.

Raw Chicken heart 1252
Raw Chicken liver 765
Raw Chicken gizzard 2106
Raw Chicken Marrow 315
Organ 10.8% by weight

Raw Eye Round Roast 6000
Raw Whole chicken”fryer”/deskin/grd bone 16200
Whole XL eggs 2232
Raw Bottom Round 2000
Muscle meat 64.3% by weight

Shredded Carrot 500
Raw Zucchini 484
Boiled Sweet Potato 3500
Raw NAPA Cabbage 953
Boiled Raw Edamame 800
Boiled Green Beans 1000
Raw Butternut squash 459
Raw Whole Apple 921
Raw Baby Spinach 400
Kelp Powder 100
Yellow Squash 423
Vegitable/Fruit 23.2% by weight

Coconut Oil 600
Oil Supplement 1.5% by weight

Sea Calcium 65
Macromineral Supplement 0.16% by weight

Notes:
1. The Sea Calcium is used to force the CA:P ratio to 1.2 in this menu.
2. This made 60 days of food each for two dogs, one at 13.5 LBs and one at 15.5 LBs.
3. The menu planned cost for food was $0.94 per day per dog.
4. The final results after shopping with same %s design was $1.10 per day per dog.
5. Energy analysis resulted in 306 g per day and 339 g per day for each dog.
6. Custom MER factor used as 1.4 (based on iterations over 6 months of menus).
7. 1,260 g contribution by weight due to bone.
8. 2.5% contribution on the organ side due to chicken marrow, based on my own experiments.
9. Energy required per day: 381 Cal for 13.5 LBs and 423 Cal for the 15.5 LBs poos.

Results of this menu are outstanding in all measured areas. Am in the process of peeling back “supplements and vitamins” for what they really are or aren’t. Hope this detail helps you or others. More to come from our quest for canine nutrition knowledge and practical applications.

[poodaddy]

Its not a stupid question at all. Look at the nutrient printout for Prosense Vitamins for Dogs. It has about half of the data in mg and half in % (which makes no sense to me). I called a large vendor and they did not know what the %s are in mg or %s of what, but they gave me the direct line for the Prosense Vitamin manufacturer sales force. I called and left a message for someone named Dale 4 days ago. No return call – nodda yet.

[poodaddy]

Does anyone have more complete /consistent data for the Prosense Vitamin for dogs? It seems a bit strange to me that a portion of the nutrients are listed in a % and others listed in mg.

Here is the manufacturer’s link for nutrition data: http://www.prosensepet.com/solutions/vitamin-solutions-for-dogs.aspx. What I need is the following:

(1) What is the standard that the %s listed below are applied to? I need to derive or get the mg Protein 16%, Carborhydrate (not listed) and Fat 0.3% … and mg associated with the percents shown for Calcium 6%, Phosphorous 5%, Magnesium 0.1% , and Potassium 0.3%?

=== Prosense Vitamin Data per tablet ===
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
PER TABLET (MINIMUM VALUES UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED)
Crude Protein……………………………………………………….…16.0%
Crude Fat…………………………………………………………………0.3%
Moisture (max.)……………………………………………………….10.0%
Linoleic Acid……………………………………………………………..0.005 %
Calcium…………………………………………………………………….6.0%
Phosphorous……………………………………………………………..4.5%
Potassium………………………………………………………………….0.3%
Magnesium………………………………………………………………0.1%
Iron………………………………………………………….…………….1.5 mg
Copper……………………………………………………….…………0.03 mg
Manganese………………………………………………….………….0.07 mg
Zinc………………………………………………………………………..0.8 mg
Iodine…………………………………………………………………..0.05 mg
Vitamin A……………………………………………………………….1200 IU
Vitamin D3………………………………………………………………150 IU
Vitamin E…………………………………………………….……….…….6 IU
Thiamine (Vitamin B1)……………………………………..………0.8 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)…………………………………………….1.5 mg
Niacinamide (Vitamin B3)…………………………………..…….9.5 mg
Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6)…………………………………..……..0.06 mg
Vitamin B12…………………………………………………….…….2.0 mcg
Cobalt*…………………………………………………………………0.01 mg
Ascorbic Acid* (source of Vitamin C) ………………………….25 mg

*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles

Calorie Content (calculated)
2,550 ME kcal/kg  (6.9 ME kcal/tablet)
This product is intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding only.

DIRECTIONS AND DOSAGE

<10 lbs……………….½ Tablet Daily
10-50 lbs………………1 Tablet Daily
>50 lbs……………….2 Tablets Daily

[poodaddy]

I would like to offer some personal insight into this but in no way intend to suggest that any comments above are “wrong”; I just want to provide a view into the prism of how a licensed professional may look at advising consumers. As a preamble, if a selected food works for the dog, and if that dog is in good health, i.e. not suffering from symptoms of improper diet such as excessive anal gland secretion, inconsistent stools, on-set of periodontal issues, skin issues, weight control variations, lethargy, where symptoms are not backed by medical testing, etc, then great.

But, …. as a licensed professional in a different industry, I can tell you the reason why any licensed professional will not advocate to a consumer for doing something that requires a certain threshold level of knowledge to implement it. It is one of professional LIABILITY. I become more and more convinced every day the reason veterinarians recommend a scientifically-balanced commercially manufactured diet is the liability for the vet to suggest anything else is unlimited – period. For example, I would not “recommend a person go build their own wing on a house” or “recommend a person change their food intake to a personal menu” but I would recommend a set of plans designed/sealed by others and or hiring a licensed individual to do the design work and I would recommend an industry professional be consulted before recommending something as vague as “raw diets are good so go do it”. That would invite a level of criticism that licensed professionals are not insured against.

Raw diet is primarily a matter of nutrition science and design; if I were a vet, my initial position would advise a non-professional against a raw diet as a matter of practice. We peeled this back on the pet food manufacturing side with the consultants or nutrition experts internal the manufacturers (which is where the liability is for commercial dog food) and found that our Vet “switched” to become supportive of a raw food diet when our nutrition data was presented and was customized to our dogs and when when combined with a Vet’s prescriptions to treat ailments that now are gone and there is scientific data to back it. It should not surprise anyone reading this post, that our Vet could not say “stop doing that when problems vanished.” The vet knew we had crossed over a threshold and were not coming back. This may surprise you but I would never recommend to anyone to just go do a raw food diet after what I have learned, unless, (1) using another professional’s complete diet with the data to back it up and or (2) doing it yourself … which is a huge commitment to an entirely new level of commitment to control the input data, measure the output data to know with certainty (=/- say ~3%) of what the data is showing.

I hope this provides a more full picture of the why a vet would not “openly advocate to consumers” to go do something that would most likely be FAR worse than buying commercially prepared and manufacturer-backed balanced dog food.

[poodaddy]

Ahhh, it is the weekend again and time to post good stuff. A lot of the above sounds soooo familiar with our situation for our both dogs, plus we had many other simultaneous symptoms occurring with our dogs, inconsistent stools, anal gland flare-ups, tooth/gum issues, we had been “fighting” the symptoms for so long it seemed we were destined for either living with it or changing the outcome. We were at the 4-year mark with our two cockapoos and I had enough of the personal ignorance and following everyone’s prescriptions including our Vet’s. So,… the long road on research and learning began (and it still continues), discussions with our Vet at a far more informed level (or at least the level I could study to), lots of webinars listened to given by licensed Vets with pet nutrition specializations, and reading reading reading. Talking to senior GOV nutritionists including the USDA, talking with pet consultant business owners, etc – you get the idea now that this was a lot of figuring out stuff that I could find in one condensed place. The secret we eventually (over an intense investigation period of months) came to was that we needed to take charge of the food data and get it done (science-based input = good results/output). The bottom-line in our case is that until we went to a complete raw food diet (this means really knowing first-hand what we were doing), we were destined on a course of mediocrity or worse and chasing symptoms which I (we) had enough of. The addition of ground bones and connective tissue with the raw diet addressed many issues (but that is just the beginning of the solutions). The experience, learning, demystification of misinformation, disinformation, and anecdotal information that is “out there” is staggering. This whole experience of ours is one that is very enriching and I am on a quest to tell everyone I can about the lessons learned, the solutions put into practice, the observations and iterations to make tweeks to the raw diet, etc needed to take control. On the money side, we have avoided thousands of dollars and or lots of worrisome situations with our two dogs. Because cost comes up regularly, our food cost ranges from an average of $1.00-$1.25 per dog per day (13.5 lb and 15.5 lb) not including time to plan, design, iterate, shop, prepare, manufacture, bag, clean up. And our Vet just smiles at us when we go in for the check-ups and tells us congratulations, you have broken some barriers of ignorance and have the data to back up your “program”. So, we are on the quest to get this project done and share the nutrition model (and all that goes into it) with those who want or need to start where we are and not have to recreate it. The model is in the final phase of designing the menu analysis section for supplements needed (or not needed) but it is based on nutrition data. Disclaimer: the model does not address any aspect of diet for treating diagnosed disease(s). The model is about proper diet and maximizing probability of prevention of problems that can be avoided by applying nutrition science.

[poodaddy]

Weston Pro Series #22 – for us this was the right balance of price for performance. We make 60 days of food for two dogs at one time, i.e., bones and all. Also important is the food processor for the non-meat portions of the menu.

Did my own comparative analysis of meat grinder specifications, price, company longevity, number of units in circulation, performance, risk, warranty, reviews, and then made the decision based on best value for us. For about a month prior, we used lesser capacity, lesser capable food processor devices when starting to mess with raw food augmentation of dry food, then when we were comfortable with raw food preparation in its entirety, and we committed, the decision was made. After 6-7 months of complete raw food preparation, we are convinced we made the right choice. The only reason we did not step up to the #32 was our volume did not call for it, otherwise if I were making raw food for friends or commercially, the decision would be for a more robust unit. As far as Weston, we love its sturdiness, and I really like its engineering/design. Anyone going 100% raw food preparation, which in our case includes the entire chicken or and bone-in red meat products (pork chops etc), a grinder that handles the bone, gristle, etc with ease is the key. Getting in the middle of a 10-hour production process the size we now do once every two months, and having a grinder break, is not a good thought. My wife cannot lift the Weston #22 from the pantry where we store it and onto the kitchen counter-top so be forewarned, good quality grinders (designed to handle bone, are heavy units).

[poodaddy]

The below was a response to a thread created in the “Trolls and Spam” area of this forum. It was loosely related to a perception that a raw dog food model may be a homeopathic method. So the response below was generated. I thought those of you interested in this raw food thread may also be interested in the below response to anan101.

October 11, 2017 at 3:32 pm
#105078

@anon101

I think this new thread and discussion is probably suited for a different area of the web site, since I think this area is for Reporting Trolls and Spam. If you can let me know where to jump to, we can do that. Perhaps there will be others interested in the “homeopathic” thread, which I have no perspective on, am ignorant about, do not have time to get into at this time, and is unrelated to anything I am doing.

After visiting the link you sent and there appears to be some confusion about what I am doing versus your area(s) of interest. My area of focus has zero to do with homeopathic interests in any way. I am developing a Nutrition Model (computer application) that is based on the latest canine nutrition design criteria I can find, every variable I can find and understand that professional canine nutritionists use for the planning, designing and implementing of “raw dog food”. I am on a quest to demystify the subject using my mathematical, Excel, and research skills to (eventually) open the world of raw dog food menu development and analysis to ANYONE interested in the subject.

In a separate area of interest, I have been cataloging as a test group of two (my dogs) the Vet-identified issues they had one year ago versus the Vet-confirmed mitigation or elimination of those issues as a result of recorded actions I have taken – most of which are raw dog food preparation since March 2017. This will be the subject of personally authored technical articles (for the future due to time constraints).

In short, my project addresses the ingredients, metrics, and nutrition stats associated with self-manufacturing “Raw Dog Food” vs buying “Commercially Mass-Produced Dog Food”. It is a very interesting subject that is also very detailed, analytical, and inter-related with post-feeding data capture such as weekly weigh-ins, trends of grams of food per batch, and documenting observed changes that can be correlated with a raw food diet.

I am already addressing much of this elsewhere on this DogFoodAdvisor forum. Perhaps you would like to participate or not. My next action is the nutrition analysis of KevinB’s post in Jan 2017 asking for comments on his menu. I am testing the veracity of my model (in progress) against his menu and will report out the micronutrition and vitamin information from the model (in a week or so).

I am not selling raw dog food preparation to anyone. In fact, I am cataloging the level of effort, skills, process, equipment, hygiene, and so on, of everything related to raw dog food preparation at home. I am a scientist, an engineer, and businessman addressing solutions to disinformation, misinformation, fog of lack of information, and or professional greed that keeps information from everyday people who need to know how to address their questions and resolve them for themselves related to raw dog food. This will be my contribution this year.

[poodaddy]

I think this new thread and discussion is probably suited for a different area of the web site, since I think this area is for Reporting Trolls and Spam. If you can let me know where to jump to, we can do that. Perhaps there will be others interested in the “homeopathic” thread, which I have no perspective on, am ignorant about, do not have time to get into at this time, and is unrelated to anything I am doing.

After visiting the link you sent and there appears to be some confusion about what I am doing versus your area(s) of interest. My area of focus has zero to do with homeopathic interests in any way. I am developing a Nutrition Model (computer application) that is based on the latest canine nutrition design criteria I can find, every variable I can find and understand that professional canine nutritionists use for the planning, designing and implementing of “raw dog food”. I am on a quest to demystify the subject using my mathematical, Excel, and research skills to (eventually) open the world of raw dog food menu development and analysis to ANYONE interested in the subject.

In a separate area of interest, I have been cataloging as a test group of two (my dogs) the Vet-identified issues they had one year ago versus the Vet-confirmed mitigation or elimination of those issues as a result of recorded actions I have taken – most of which are raw dog food preparation since March 2017. This will be the subject of personally authored technical articles (for the future due to time constraints).

In short, my project addresses the ingredients, metrics, and nutrition stats associated with self-manufacturing “Raw Dog Food” vs buying “Commercially Mass-Produced Dog Food”. It is a very interesting subject that is also very detailed, analytical, and inter-related with post-feeding data capture such as weekly weigh-ins, trends of grams of food per batch, and documenting observed changes that can be correlated with a raw food diet.

I am already addressing much of this elsewhere on this DogFoodAdvisor forum. Perhaps you would like to participate or not. My next action is the nutrition analysis of KevinB’s post in Jan 2017 asking for comments on his menu. I am testing the veracity of my model (in progress) against his menu and will report out the micronutrition and vitamin information from the model (in a week or so).

I am not selling raw dog food preparation to anyone. In fact, I am cataloging the level of effort, skills, process, equipment, hygiene, and so on, of everything related to raw dog food preparation at home. I am a scientist, an engineer, and businessman addressing solutions to disinformation, misinformation, fog of lack of information, and or professional greed that keeps information from everyday people who need to know how to address their questions and resolve them for themselves related to raw dog food. This will be my contribution this year.

[poodaddy]

@ anon101

Yup, your advice is good. I am seeing some interesting communications behavior from people, particularly since I have not been an internet surfer or forum person. It is possible this forum may not be the place for my interests, but it may end up being a good place to converse about the project I am doing or peripheral subjects that arise. I know there some very knowledgeable people I have already met and who provided links that have moved my project forward (sources of data that professional consultants would not even give me), so that is a good thing. My interests are primarily science of the model and industry-leading sources of the data to move the model toward a fact-based objective system that can function as the start of the raw food nutrition planning AND be a source of in-progress implementation of a customized raw dog food menu. I am using the model as an analytical tool to evaluate a menu posted in the homemade section and that should be an interesting dialog once I have the nutrition data researched. If people get weird (unprofessional), I will follow your advice and ignore them.

[poodaddy]

Going to run this through my model and report what it looks like. Will report out as soon as I collect the nutrient data for Kevin B’s menu. My model DB has raw ingredients and is not set up for what Kevin B is doing, i.e. cooking dis and dat but will be an interesting exercise to see what pops out of the program.

[poodaddy]

Well, you have my contact information. When you are ready to start planning (say about two months out from doing it yourself), let me know. I plan on helping a lot of folks get a first-hand view into the equipment needed, what it is really like to plan a menu, iterate on the nutrition metrics, set up the specific controls for dog weight, activity level, age, etc, and take control of their individual dog’s food requirements, but, … not until the model is completed and checked by a seasoned pet nutritionist. There are two actions to complete the model: (1) input the Daily Nutrition Requirement by micro and vitamin into the model which will automatically show the variances in each micronutrient and vitamins from the menu, and (2) determine the source(s) of supplements needed (if any) to balance the variances to an optimum. Getting VERY close!

[poodaddy]

Ahhh … what a juicy topic and it seems full of emotion – perhaps a story of multiple parts which will eventually be relevant to chewing bones will help others – gotta love real life stories. Context – Not a Vet or a Licensed Dog whatever but have been training dogs from basic obedience to field trials (for about 40+ years of studying mostly working with many breeds in dog training clubs – some of the best times in my life – some of the most diverse professionals who were in those clubs – try it if you don’t do it). Was finished with years of shelties and open jumping and wanted a gun dog and to be active in a gun club in upstate PA. So studied up on it, and got an awesome yellow lab, bred for hunting, waited a year for him from a professional duck hunter, and was soooo excited when the day came for me to drive 10 hours to pick him up at 7 weeks old (1995 in Pennsylvania). Carefully trained the puppy to six months in puppy obedience (of course) with the understanding this was going to be a gun dog and of course our favorite home companion too! This big strong consistent smart yeller was amazing in the field under the tutelage of a retiring yellow lab female for upland game and an unreal black for water dog training. Yes, …. for those who do not know, gun dogs in high end clubs mostly learn from retiring master gun dogs and the owners learn from the professional handlers. That dog grew up able to chew, crush, devour anything with jaws and teeth that were bred to handle it (and snapping the neck of a really big furious goose when needed). Teeth were shiny white, never came close to breaking a tooth that I could see, no periodontal disease, healthy male lab, as loving as could be around children/people, but was a focused working dog in the field with an unbelievable level of hearing, great sight and instincts that made me a better person, hunter and handler. Fast forward, many years later, we were suffering from the loss of this companion and we get two pups (14 lb at maturity) cockapoos because I am done with hair in the house and I want a canine companion in my office with me in my 12-15 hour days as a business owner. After the poo male’s first broken adult tooth from meaty bone chewing and the female’s bowel issues from eating “stuff” not even close to bone fragments, and a couple vet visits, gone was bone chewing other than VERY careful observed knawing on some softer meaty bones that are more trouble than they are worth due to the messiness – but the poos love them nonetheless. We were driven to address the anal gland secretion issues, the normal onset of periodontal disease at the 4 year mark and scale build up, bad breath, …

* We learned something REMARKABLE after our vet informed us we must make an appointment for two dogs to be anesthetized and get their teeth cleaned (expensive situation that carried some risk). Early in this year 2017, for different reasons, I embarked on a journey of raw food self-education primarily for anal gland issues and my growing nervousness of kibble, my reading about how commercial dog food is prepared, and my ignorance of what is in it (we were feeding them Blue Buffalo Company products) which may be high quality but I did not trust any kibble and the dogs were finicky with any kibble diet. Since March 2017, their diet (100% raw) has apparently changed their body chemistry so dramatically that the scale on their teeth started “slowly dissolving” after about 6 weeks. Their breath changed in about a week or two for the better. I could rake the scale off with the slightest pressure from a fingernail after a month. The follow on vet visit since then resulted in “anal gland secretion problem resolved” – saved $60/visit/60 days gone due to firm stools from ground bone in the raw diet, “periodontal disease problem – $1600/both dogs resolved” due to (1) the change in digestive chemistry according to our vet with my research concluding the same, (2) and combined with once a week brushing to keep removing the scale, “all digestive issues of periodic loose stools or strange eating habits – resolved as they love the raw food diet we manufacture. So, what is the relevance? The risks of raw meaty bones with a dog directly correlate to the breed, size, and situation. At least this is the conclusion from our real life experience, backed up by concurrence with our vet, and it is consistent with our friends’ experiences who have smaller poo-hybrids versus those with labs. Who is learning? The human for certain … and both the human and dog are benefiting. Booya for education, trial and error, doing things for the love of the dog, and persistence!

[poodaddy]

Eh … made me feel good to vent even if the photons went to cyberspace. lol

[poodaddy]

For those who get confused with internet gadgetry way finding details omitted, like old folks such as me !, the “Create a Custom Avatar – Gravatar …” is the same as ” How to get your photo beside your post” – Put your favorite photo on your PC desktop, create a WordPress.com account, import photo(s) into your new WordPress account, select which one is to be desired to be tagged to your email address (ensure this email address is the one used for the website forum), and the photo MAGICALLY appears beside your posts. Amazing stuff lol.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by poodaddy.

[poodaddy]

Dr Sagman, how do members of your forum know what actions are being taken by those moderators with the authority to “ban”? Yesterday I was admitted to a forum and banned forever in a span of 3 hours – must be a new record. Is it possible to share or highlight examples of these trolls and the actions taken? If that is already done, pardon my ignorance and please share.

The reason I ask is two weeks ago I finally started reaching out to the www and took a step to join dog forums because I had exhausted a search for canine nutritionists interested in working with me on a project, and joined dogforum.com the same day I joined your forum then I was “banned forever” yesterday on dogforum.com within 2-3 hours of posting a reply to an individual seeking help about a dog viciously biting anyone including the owner when the dog had a sock and was approached. The advice being given to this poor lad was so lame it was shocking which was primarily “hide all your socks in the house” so I posted for him to quickly use corrective measures and highlighted one professional who has published techniques that will work (because I have selectively used his techniques for over 40 years) – Koehler for this type of condition. But, if not up to it, to retain a professional trainer who has the capability to deal with it before something really bad happens. I was immediately lifetime banned for posting SPAM and an individual as a “Senior Moderator” with alias “TSTrainer” posted a response requesting “poodaddy credentials” , did not allow a response to his post since when I tried to it was disallowed, and proceeded to post his/her reply to (1) medicate the dog and (2) get an animal behaviorist. Holy cow … poodaddy enters the world of forums and human dysfunction.

[poodaddy]

Susan, thanks for your post – really good information for my needs. To All, this is sooooo refreshing to see a site that allows honest fact-based dialog in a forum. If this is the result of Dr Sagman setting up the “system” for open dialog, he should receive big thank yous.

[poodaddy]

Keri, we have an Alaska company and the CEO is on St George Island consulting. What island are you on?

[poodaddy]

Hi Matt, ditto all the above. I am very new to forums in general (about two weeks ago) and noticed your post. First, one cannot over-research raw feeding – not possible in my opinion. It is a tremendous subject that I have been reading about and developing an Excel application for since March of this year. Started our two canine companions on a raw food diet on 18 Mar 2017 and have been refining it every month since; it is a Sunday morning labor of love I guess. So, … if you are into model development, raw food manufacturing AND applying the science/data that will produce a balanced and healthy diet, let me know. I could certainly use some collaboration since every “consultant” I reached out to seemed to run away from the project I guess thinking it was a threat which of course is silly in my view. Am about 90% with the model and nearing the output that will highlight the deficiencies of each micronutrient and vitamin against the daily standard needed for balanced and healthy meals. It is a lot more effort than I originally thought and that does not even address the actual work involved in menu prep, shopping, preparation, and cleanup for a 60-day supply of food for two dogs. The model also captures level of effort in hours, and price/cost of the menu. Manufacturing the food is a giant production operation that is a LOT OF WORK but we are passionate about the results it has achieved for our two cockapoos not to mention the vet bills avoided. Lots learned and a lot more to go.

[poodaddy]

Excellent. Exactly what I was looking for and what my raw model needs. Thank you!

[poodaddy]

pugmomsandy, do you have a recommended reference source of the minimum daily canine requirements of micronutrients and vitamins? thanks

[poodaddy]

This thread is old (2014) then jumps to 2017. If anyone is tracking on this subject, and wants to collaborate in a specific “area” of this site, who can help understand how to manage a forum or subject, concerning the pursuit of and finishing of a raw dog food system that is complete from create the menu, crunch the numbers, determine the supplements (from the science of nutrition), let me know. I am into this in a big way, have been cataloging the personal journey from knowing nothing to gaining 100% control of the data, have the background in model development, and have the interest in using science to demystify it all. And it is all driven by my love for my two cockapoos and nothing else.

I am on a quest to find a group (of one or more) who have this interest as I am at the 90% stage on completing the project.

[poodaddy]

Here is my “3 cents” on the “raw dog food” subject: (1) there is the observation aspect of positive change in stool, gland secretion, in some cases behavior, athletic performance noticeable by all those I am associated with in the transition of commercial to raw (not cooked), (2) there is the science aspect of knowing through nutrition science what the menu actually is from researching/collecting the food data and analyzing it for macro, micro, vitamin, fatty acids data, and (3) there is the analytical aspect of comparing the menu results from (2) above to industry standards for minimum daily requirements adapted to your dog’s lifestyle/function and supplementing the raw menu to meet that standard.

I have completed (1) and (2) in an open Excel system and am working toward (3) at this time. I am interested in collaborating with a group of people who are highly interested in the above, and in so doing move the raw food discussion to a far higher level.

[poodaddy]

Michael B,

For about 5 months now, I have been developing an integrated system using Excel as a complete nutrition model specifically targeted at total visibility of all elements/variables for raw dog food preparation. This initiative is not for commercial sale, is for my use to control every aspect of planning, designing, shopping, manufacturing, and feeding my dogs. The system has two items remaining to be complete before I am comfortable starting to share my knowledge, and the software development: (1) industry recognized source of canine MDR (wet) or MDR (dry with conversion methodology to wet) for all micro-nutrients and vitamins and (2) sources for concluding my research into supplements to finish the balancing.

So,… if you want to start a dialog on this, let me know.

[poodaddy]

Rea, I can assist you. I just joined this forum today and need some advice on how to navigate inside it and find the right place for my interests. Would you help me or introduce me to someone far more knowledgeable with on-line forums that I am?

On your question about carbs, there is the theoretical response based on nutrition science and there is the practical how to do it. Will provide you with the practical and see if this satisfies your need.

Assumption: requirement is to calculate carbs in grams weight from a known food of a known weight.

Approach: find that food’s nutrition profile that states the carb content per serving.

Data Source: use nutritiondata.self.com to find the food’s macro nutrient profile. There are other sources but let’s use this one.

Method:
(1) select per 100g on the site pull down.
(2) record the database results for carb content per 100g.
(3) weigh your sample in g (or convert your food weight to g).
(4) food weight (g) x food data [carb (g) per food sample size 100 (g)] = carb (g).

Illustration: what is the carb content of 1.3 lbs of raw zucchini
(1) go to http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2639/2

(2) record the data for a pull down selection sample size of 100 g to be 1.2g Prot, 3.3g Carb, and 0.2g Fat.

(3) convert your sample to (g). Let’s say you weight your 1.3 lb in grams and it shows 591g. The conversion factor for lbs to g is 453.592 g/lb, i.e. weight lbs x 453.592 g/lb = weight g.

(4) 591 g Zucchini x 3.3 g Carb per 100 g sample = 19.5 g Carb.

Hope this fully clarifies the matter for you. poodaddy

P.S. For the percent, assuming you were looking for the percent of carbs in zucchini, it could be as simple as reading the percent data from the nutrition database output Or you could use the 3.3 g Carb per 100 g sample = 3.3% by weight. The only issue with this in isolation is to do this for a menu, requires the total grams of Carb for all foods in the menu to be divided by the total grams of the menu x 100 for the percent of Carb in that menu.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by poodaddy. Reason: Need to finish the response based on question related to "percent"

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