[anonymous]

Au contraire

“The specific relationship between diet and DCM in these cases is not yet understood, so it is impossible to say if the food is a primary cause of DCM and, if so, how this is happening. However, the common thread among the diets involved seems to be the use of legumes or pulses (e.g. peas, lentils) in place of grains in the diet.”

Above is an excerpt from skeptvet blog, link is in my prior post.

[anonymous]

FDA Update on Grain-free Diets and Heart Disease in Dogs

excerpts (out of context) below, click on link for full article and comments

The specific relationship between diet and DCM in these cases is not yet understood, so it is impossible to say if the food is a primary cause of DCM and, if so, how this is happening. However, the common thread among the diets involved seems to be the use of legumes or pulses (e.g. peas, lentils) in place of grains in the diet.

While many of the diets contain common protein sources (e.g. chicken and lamb), a surprisingly high proportion have unusual and uncommon meats as their main protein source. Again, the significance of this is not yet clear.

There is a concentration of cases among golden retrievers, though dogs of many other breeds have been affected as well.

Further data collection and research will be necessary to determine the precise relationship between diet and DCM in these cases. There are likely multiple factors involved, including the ingredients in the diet, the genetics or particular breeds and individuals, and others we may not yet know about. Pet owners feeding these diets don’t need to panic, since far more dogs on these diets do NOT have DCM than do. However, if you are feeding one of these foods, or a diet similar in composition, and especially if you are feeding this to a golden retriever, it would be a good idea to talk to your vet about screening your pet for DCM and considering a change in diet.

[anonymous]

Please see my previous post and click on the links. Best of luck
/forums/topic/fda-investigation-into-diet-and-dcm/#post-141934

Consider Fromm, they have several grain-inclusive formulas, our favorites are Salmon la veg and Highlander Beef, oats and barley
https://www.gofromm.com
https://frommfamily.com

PS I use the kibble as a base, always add a little water and a bite of something like chopped up boiled chicken meat or a bit of crumbled up boiled egg

[anonymous]

Bump

/forums/topic/fda-investigation-into-diet-and-dcm/#post-141934

[anonymous]

Maybe something over here might help
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=arthritis

[anonymous]

As I have mentioned before, any change in diet will usually result in softer stools. It is not a concern unless it turns into watery diarrhea.
A transition to a new food takes a minimum of 1 month to see if it agrees with the dog. In example: energy level, stools, coat etc.
I switch foods cold turkey without any issues, depends on the dog I guess.
If the last food didn’t agree with the dog why do a slow transition?
Call your vet if you want, he will tell you the same thing (I predict).

PS: Maybe cut out the homemade stuff and keep it simple for now.

[anonymous]

@ David H

Thanks so much for sharing. I went through it all too with a small breed boy.
That’s the trick, diet restrictions depending on the type of stones, and water, water, water.
Yes you will have to take them out frequently for bathroom breaks, have to keep the bladder flushed. Very important.

Glad that your dog is doing well.

PS: Keeping the weight down and exercise, frequent walks, helps too.

[anonymous]

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/questions-answers-fda-center-veterinary-medicines-investigation-possible-connection-between-diet-and
excerpt below

To put this issue into proper context, the American Veterinary Medical Association estimates that there are 77 million pet dogs in the United States. As of April 30, 2019, the FDA has received reports about 560 dogs diagnosed with DCM suspected to be linked to diet. Tens of millions of dogs have been eating dog food without developing DCM. If you are concerned about the diet you are currently feeding your dog, FDA recommends working with your veterinarian, who may consult a board-certified veterinary nutritionist, to determine the best diet for your dog’s need.

FDA Update on Grain-free Diets and Heart Disease in Dogs

excerpts (out of context) below, click on link for full article and comments

The specific relationship between diet and DCM in these cases is not yet understood, so it is impossible to say if the food is a primary cause of DCM and, if so, how this is happening. However, the common thread among the diets involved seems to be the use of legumes or pulses (e.g. peas, lentils) in place of grains in the diet.

While many of the diets contain common protein sources (e.g. chicken and lamb), a surprisingly high proportion have unusual and uncommon meats as their main protein source. Again, the significance of this is not yet clear.

There is a concentration of cases among golden retrievers, though dogs of many other breeds have been affected as well.

Further data collection and research will be necessary to determine the precise relationship between diet and DCM in these cases. There are likely multiple factors involved, including the ingredients in the diet, the genetics or particular breeds and individuals, and others we may not yet know about. Pet owners feeding these diets don’t need to panic, since far more dogs on these diets do NOT have DCM than do. However, if you are feeding one of these foods, or a diet similar in composition, and especially if you are feeding this to a golden retriever, it would be a good idea to talk to your vet about screening your pet for DCM and considering a change in diet.

[anonymous]

@ joanne I

Don’t be silly 🙂
Nothing to apologize for!

[anonymous]

Hope these articles help someone

Overdiagnosis

WVC 2016: Overdiagnosis and Overtreatment

More Evidence that Laboratory Testing of Healthy Dogs and Cats Uncovers Lots of Abnormalities of Questionable Significance

[anonymous]

There are hundreds of conditions that could have caused the dog to drop dead suddenly.

Heat stroke for one.

DCM is rare.

[anonymous]

I fed the Zignature fish formulas for about 2-3 years as a base. Absolutely no problems.
We only switched because of the grain-free scare.

[anonymous]

All anecdotal

PS: Whether people spend money on having their dogs tested and such has nothing to do with being rich or poor.

There are people that can afford to have testing done that decline.
There are people that can’t afford to have these tests but do it anyway and rack up credit card debt.

It all depends on what your priorities are. That is why it helps to have a veterinarian that you have a good relationship with to advise you accordingly.

[anonymous]

I am voicing my opinion based on my experience as a pet owner and conversations with other pet owners (not on forums, ones that I actually can see). Veterinarians, specialists, etc.
Also, people are interpreting the FDA warning and updates differently, as they are vague and inconclusive.
One thing that stood out to me was Golden Retrievers 95% That says a lot, imo.

NO PROFESSIONAL ADVICE HERE. This is a forum. OPINIONS not FACTS.

Again: Around 91 percent of these dogs consumed pet foods labeled as “grain-free” — while 93 percent ate food with peas or lentils, the department said.

There it is , that is what you should avoid.

[anonymous]

“Most people take their dog to the vet when they feel something is not right with the dog”.

Au contraire.
Some of the dogs that have been diagnosed have absolutely no symptoms. People that live on a modest income don’t take their dog to the vet if they can avoid it.

I do now, take them for annuals and such because I had a dog that came down with cancer, another one with allergies that needed the expertise of a specialist.
For years I did not, just took them to Petco for the rabies shot every 3 years.

[anonymous]

I don’t pay any attention to specific brands that are mentioned in the report.
They should just say AVOID GRAIN-FREE DOG FOOD across the board, all brands for now! Also avoid legumes, peas or at least make sure they are far down on the ingredient list.
Also, don’t you think it’s odd that all the brands mentioned are high end? I think that pet owners that buy expensive dog food are more likely to take their dogs to the vet for every little thing and demand testing.
An echo costs abut $350, taurine level is expensive too, at least $200. These would be needed to diagnose DCM
Do you really think the people that buy supermarket dog foods are going to go along with that…

Fromm is a good food (grain-inclusive formulas) imo.

https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/dog-food-may-be-putting-your-best-friend-at-risk-for-a-fatal-disease/ excerpt below
Around 91 percent of these dogs consumed pet foods labeled as “grain-free” — while 93 percent ate food with peas or lentils, the department said.

[anonymous]

Allergic or food sensitivities? Food allergies are rare. Best to work with a veterinarian, he may need a prescription food till you get an accurate diagnosis as to what he can tolerate.
Then you should rule out environmental allergies if his symptoms continue. Talk to your vet.

[anonymous]

Nutrisource has grain-inclusive formulas.

I don’t pay any attention to specific brands that are mentioned in the report.

They should just say AVOID GRAIN-FREE DOG FOOD across the board, all brands for now! Also avoid legumes, peas or at least make sure they are far down on the ingredient list.

Also, don’t you think it’s odd that all the brands mentioned are high end? I think that pet owners that buy expensive dog food are more likely to take their dogs to the vet for every little thing and demand testing.
An echo costs abut $350, taurine level is expensive too, at least $200.

[anonymous]

https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/four-star/dry/highlander-beef-oats-n-barley-recipe

Just received a small bag of this today. Delighted to see small kibble! Will try it as a change from salmon la veg.
I know my terrier will like it, maybe my allergy dog too. They both will eat anything, but I want to see how they do on it.
Maybe I will alternate, we’ll see…

[anonymous]

The latest. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/cvm-updates/fda-provides-third-status-report-investigation-potential-connection-between-certain-diets-and-cases?utm_campaign=6-27-2019%20DCM%20Update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua
excerpts below, out of context

To date, the FDA has not established why certain diets may be associated with the development of DCM in some dogs. In the meantime, and before making diet changes, pet owners should work directly with their veterinarians, who may consult with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist, to determine the most appropriate diet for their pet’s specific needs.

FDA examined product labels of products reported in DCM cases to determine whether the products were grain-free (did not contain corn, soy, wheat, rice, barley or other grains), and whether the products contained peas, other lentils including chickpeas and beans, or potatoes (including sweet potatoes). More than 90 percent of products were “grain-free,” and 93 percent of reported products contained peas and/or lentils. A far smaller proportion contained potatoes.

[anonymous]

Take her to the vet for a checkup.

[anonymous]

What does the vet that examined her recommend? That’s where I would start.

From a previous post, per the search engine, “anal glands”

https://www.vetsecure.com/veterinarymedicalclinic.com/articles/136 (excerpts below out of context)
Oops! It appears that the link doesn’t work anymore.
Well you get the idea, I hope.
Overview:
Anal sacs are the reservoirs for the secretions of anal glands which are located on either side of a dog’s anus, at approximately four and eight o’clock. These sacs contain liquid secretions from the anal gland, which, in healthy animals, are normally pale yellow-brown to grayish in color. The contents are usually emptied during normal bowel movements, or when a dog is nervous or scared. In most animals, these sacs empty easily. However, some dogs, especially small breed dogs, are not able to empty the sacs properly and become susceptible to anal sac disease.
Transmission or Cause:
The cause of anal sac disease is unknown. Smaller dog breeds, such as Chihuahuas and poodles, are most often affected. Excessive anal gland production, soft feces or diarrhea, poor muscle tone, and obesity also contribute to higher risk of developing anal sac disease. Anal sac abscess tends to occur after an impacted anal gland has become so severely swollen and infected that the anal sac forms an abscess and ruptures.
Prevention:
Expression of the anal sacs every few weeks or months often will help prevent anal gland fluid from accumulating and becoming thickened again. High fiber diets have been shown to help prevent anal sac disease in at-risk dogs, especially those that are obese.

[anonymous]

Please see my comments
Example /forums/topic/coprophagia-poop-eating-advice/#post-94786

Per the search engine /forums/search/coprophagia/

Hope this helps

[anonymous]

The oat groats in dog food are highly processed and pretty much the same thing as oatmeal. Same as the pearled barley, everything is broken down already.
It’s been recently discussed here
/forums/topic/oat-groats/

The Wellness turkey and oatmeal looks good too, I’d get a small bag of whatever food you choose and see how it goes.
PS: It’s 28% protein (Wellness turkey and oatmeal) according to Chewy dot com

[anonymous]

Thanks for the feedback.
I was surprised at how small some of the Fromm kibble are, the Salmon La Veg is our current favorite, I have a 9 pound dog with a sensitive stomach that really appreciates the small bites.
Like you mentioned, I also add a topper, a bite of chopped boiled chicken, scrambled egg and such and always a splash of water.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by anonymous.

[anonymous]

The original poster:
“I have been looking for a easily commercially available, well rated (4-5 stars), small bites dog food made with poultry and grain and with protein 25% or less”.

Yes, and that is what I gave my opinion on (previous posts) before I was sidetracked with comments that are not relevant to your question and I made the mistake of responding.

I would narrow your selections down to about 3 choices and then consult with a veterinary healthcare professional as to which would be best for your dogs and their specific needs. It’s best if you have a vet that is familiar with your dogs.

Keep in mind that what you read on forums are considered opinions and not necessarily facts.

Best of luck

[anonymous]

“Just correcting misinformation about Fromm’s staffing”
Well, in that case.
Bump: /forums/topic/small-bites-dog-food/#post-141131

[anonymous]

You forgot, they have a veterinarian (consultant employee) too 🙂
Yes! That’s more than good enough for me.
My dogs are thriving on Fromm. My vet approves and he’s seen and heard a lot of things over the years.

There are many other good foods out there too.

@Bonnie F
What were you feeding before (that went out of business)?
My friend’s dog is doing well on Nutrisource. She switched from Zignature as I did due to the grain-free scare although neither of us had any issues with Zignature.

I dog-sit for her once in a while and the Nutrisource kibble doesn’t look big to me.
Here it is https://www.amazon.com/Nutrisource-Adult-Chicken-Rice-Food/dp/B07D5D9BNB/ref=sr_1_5?crid=27KISNSV3VE03&keywords=nutrisource+dog+food&qid=1561136201&s=pet-supplies&sprefix=ntrisource+dog+food%2Cpets%2C317&sr=1-5

[anonymous]

http://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-consultant-and-full-time-employee
excerpts below (out of context)
Key Difference: A full time employee is an employee of the company that works there full time. They have all the benefits of employment, including being on the payroll, vacations, benefits, overtime, etc
A consultant is a specialized professional who provides expert advice in their field. Hence, they are often hired for a particular task or project on which they can apply their expertise or give advice.

A consultant, on the other hand, is different.
While they are also an employee of the company, their role can vary tremendously depending on the contract that they have with the company.
At the core of the definition, a consultant is a specialized professional who provides expert advice in their field. Hence, they are often hired for a particular task or project on which they can apply their expertise or give advice. For example: a tax consultant may be brought on to handle the finances as required on a new project that the company is developing, or perhaps to go over the company’s books to put them in order.

[anonymous]

Fromm, not one complaint.
https://www.bbb.org/us/wi/mequon/profile/wholesale-pet-foods/fromm-family-foods-llc-0694-14038188#overview

Now in comparison: Purina
https://www.bbb.org/us/fl/largo/profile/wholesale-pet-foods/purina-dog-and-cat-food-0653-90297868

[anonymous]

When Should I Switch My Pet To A Senior Diet?

“Although it is a common belief, reduced dietary protein is not beneficial for the healthy older dog or cat. In fact, lower protein diets for older dogs and cats may have negative effects by contributing to muscle loss. Therefore, dogs and cats should not be fed a reduced protein diet just because they are aging. The “optimal” protein level for older dogs and cats, however, is still controversial. Some companies make senior diets with lower protein while others actually make their senior diets with increased protein. Just like there’s no evidence for benefits of a low protein diet, it also is not clear that high protein diets are beneficial or even optimal for seniors.”
Cornell Vet. 1985 Apr;75(2):324-47.
Nutrition and metabolism of the geriatric dog.
Sheffy BE, Williams AJ, Zimmer JF, Ryan GD.
Abstract
Sixteen 10-12-year-old and eight 1-year-old dogs were studied over a two year period to determine comparative differences in physiological response to 4 diets varying in protein content and percentages of energy contributed by protein. The ability of old dogs to utilize nutrients as supplied by these foods was not significantly different from that of young adult dogs. Except for indices of mitogenic stimulation and serum urea nitrogen (SUN) other physiological parameters studied were not affected by the diet fed. Regardless of diet, old dogs had significantly higher serum levels of cholesterol, phosphorus and alkaline phosphatase and had lower indices of mitogenic stimulation than did young dogs.

[anonymous]

Bump:

You can call Fromm for more information and where you can purchase.
https://frommfamily.com/ 1- 800-325-6331
According to the person I spoke to at Fromm they have a veterinarian and a nutritionist on staff.

You can draw your own conclusions after speaking to someone directly at Fromm.

They won’t come here despite all the misinformation. The person I spoke to said to encourage people that have questions to feel free to contact them with any concerns, also their website is very informative.

[anonymous]

https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-four-star-nutritionals-salmon-a-la-veg-food-for-dogs “small kibbles”

You can call Fromm for more information and where you can purchase.
https://frommfamily.com/ 1- 800-325-6331
According to the person I spoke to at Fromm they have a veterinarian and a nutritionist on staff.

[anonymous]

Well, that’s nice. Glad you found a food that you like.

I don’t agree with your choice for obvious reasons.

If you are so sure this is a wonderful food why are you looking for validation on forums?

No veterinary health care professionals here. No veterinarians here. No veterinary nutritionists here.

BTW: No veterinary healthcare professionals are mentioned via the dog food link you provided.

Good luck!

PS: Call them up and ask if it’s okay if you eat the product yourself, lol

You went through a traumatic experience with a dog or two (according to your prior posts)

Hence, you are vulnerable to scams . Homeopathic medicine is a business just as much as traditional medicine is.
They have to make money to survive. They know how to play you…

But at least traditional medicine is backed by science.

[anonymous]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature. excerpts below

Notably, the appeal to nature is often implicit in marketing, simply by using terms like “natural”, “all natural”, “natural goodness”, “organic”, “pesticide free”, or “no artificial ingredients”.
Deconstruction
Appeal to nature is a fallacious argument, because the mere “naturalness” of something is unrelated to its positive or negative qualities – natural things can be bad or harmful (such as infant death and the jellyfish above), and unnatural things can be good (such as clothes, especially when you are in Siberia). Another problem is the distinction of what is “natural” and what is not, which can be murky: crude oil occurs naturally, but it’s not something you’d like poured on seabirds or your garden. The word “natural” itself has no exact definition and can be used in multiple ways, thus allowing equivocation.

[anonymous]

Misleading Advertising for Raw Pet Food (again)

excerpt below

“Finally, the terms “human grade” and “restaurant grade” are frequently used for the ingredients despite the fact that these are not legally defined terms or part of the USDA meat grading system. Use of such meaningless terms cannot be anything but misleading and deceptive since they appear to indicate an official judgment on the quality of the food’s ingredients when the manufacturers must know that no such judgment has been made by anyone but them”.

https://www.petfoodindustry.com/blogs/10-debunking-pet-food-myths-and-misconceptions/post/6917-are-human-grade-pet-foods-really-human-grade excerpt below

AAFCO guidelines for human grade claims
In its Official Publication (2018), AAFCO clearly outlines the guidelines for pet food companies wanting to make human grade claims. The guidelines are broken down into four parts on pages 151 to 152. For purposes of this blog, I will abbreviate these parts:
The use of the term “human grade” is only acceptable to the product as a whole. Every ingredient and finished food must be stored, handled, processed and transported in a manner that is consistent with current good manufacturing processes (cGMPs).
The definition “human grade” is false and misleading if the finished good as a whole is not human edible. Human grade claims cannot be made on individual ingredients if the finished good is not human grade.
For substantiation of human grade claims, a manufacturer must have documentation for the following:
a. That each ingredient is fit for human consumption
b. Every ingredient and finished food is stored, handled, processed and transported in a manner consistent and compliant with cGMPs for human edible foods in 21 CFR part 117.
c. The manufacturing facility is licensed to produce human food by the appropriate authority (local, county or state public health authorities).
4. A pet food with human grade claims must be labeled for its intended use (e.g., dog food).

[anonymous]

No, most of us have been advised by our veterinarians to avoid small companies that have not been around a long time.

Also “Plans start at $3/day and include free shipping” That comes to $90 a month, minimum.

No Thanks!

PS: Sounds like a scam.

[anonymous]

Definitely Cabin (business class with you as a service dog).

Surely you have heard the horror stories of what can go wrong in Cargo.

[anonymous]

Consider Fromm https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-family-reduced-activity-senior-gold-food-for-dogs

Never heard of the brand you mentioned. I avoid small companies. It’s not about the ingredients.

[anonymous]

I guess we have a misunderstanding.
Glad your dog is doing well.
Peace.

[anonymous]

You are listening to too many sources, some are VERY UNRELIABLE.

I will no longer respond to any of your posts, except to correct information that I believe may cause harm to an animal.

Best of luck.

PS: You keep referring to medication as drugs, not cool. Stop spreading negative propaganda.

Homeopathic vets are dangerous! Find out the hard way. Many of us have.

[anonymous]

Latest Integrative Nonsense from the Integrative Veterinary Care Journal- Spring 2017

excerpt below, click on link for full article and comments.

Alternative medicine practitioners have had a lot of success marketing their methods to the mainstream veterinary profession by obscuring or downplaying the most egregiously unscientific and ridiculous of their beliefs and practices when speaking outside of their own groups. They will often claim an acceptance of scientific evidence, though not to the extent that it overrides their personal experiences or anecdotes. And they will employ the term “integrative medicine” to suggest that they consider all therapies, conventional or alternative, equally and fairly before selecting the right method for each patient. The outwardly reasonable marketing of such integrative medicine can be very effective at convincing reasonable, mostly science-based animal owners and veterinarians to take seriously methods that, when understood fully, are deeply unreasonable and incompatible with science.

[anonymous]

“Dog Journal is doesn’t sound like voodoo science to me”.

Well it does to me.

https://www.petcarerx.com/article/what-can-i-do-about-my-dogs-anxiety/703 excerpt below
For some dogs, medication to reduce anxiety may be recommended. Dogs can be given anxiety medicine like tranquilizers to help reduce short term stress, such as an airplane flight or noisy construction project near the home that will only last for a certain time. Other pets may need long term medication, like Clomicalm. Anti-anxiety drugs must be prescribed by a veterinarian, and if you choose a homeopathic medicine, be sure to consult your vet beforehand.

Though seeing your pet anxious can be stressful, it is important for pet owners to remain calm during a bout of anxiety. With the right care and treatment, anxiety can be reduced and sometimes treated completely.

Also, some helpful articles here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=dog+anxiety

[anonymous]

None of the information you provided in your prior comment is in the article you linked to.

Whole Dog Journal is a homeopathic site, so many science based folks would disregard anything they have to say anyway.
Thanks for your opinion.

[anonymous]

https://petfood.aafco.org/ excerpt below, click on link for full article

AAFCO does not regulate, test, approve or certify pet foods in any way.

AAFCO establishes the nutritional standards for complete and balanced pet foods, and it is the pet food company’s responsibility to formulate their products according to the appropriate AAFCO standard.

It is the state feed control official’s responsibility in regulating pet food to ensure that the laws and rules established for the protection of companion animals and their custodians are complied with so that only unadulterated, correctly and uniformly labeled pet food products are distributed in the marketplace and a structure for orderly commerce.

[anonymous]

Is this from Susan Thixton’s site again? She is not a veterinarian. She is not a veterinary nutritionist.
A link to the source would be appreciated especially when you quote someone or copy & paste.

The AAFCO https://www.aafco.org/
Discuss your concerns with your vet. Best of luck.

[anonymous]

https://www.gofromm.com/fromm-four-star-nutritionals-salmon-a-la-veg-food-for-dogs

Both are doing well on this as a base. The terrier was fine on Classic Adult but my other one with allergies does best on a fish based food. It is easier to have them on the same food. I don’t “rotate”.

I do change up the toppers and add a splash of water to meals.

[anonymous]

Well that’s nice, glad you have it all figured out.
Best of luck.

[anonymous]

I tried Purina Pro Plan Focus Sensitive, meh, it’s okay. I prefer Fromm.

I think the Purina Pro Plan is a bland food so it might work for your dog.

I would continue to work closely with your vet. Best of luck.

[anonymous]

Eating grass is a red flag that something is wrong with the dog!
The only dog I ever had that did that (more than just once in a blue moon) died young of an aggressive form of cancer.
I am talking about a span of dog ownership over 30 years.

[Author]

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