[poodaddy]

I think this new thread and discussion is probably suited for a different area of the web site, since I think this area is for Reporting Trolls and Spam. If you can let me know where to jump to, we can do that. Perhaps there will be others interested in the “homeopathic” thread, which I have no perspective on, am ignorant about, do not have time to get into at this time, and is unrelated to anything I am doing.

After visiting the link you sent and there appears to be some confusion about what I am doing versus your area(s) of interest. My area of focus has zero to do with homeopathic interests in any way. I am developing a Nutrition Model (computer application) that is based on the latest canine nutrition design criteria I can find, every variable I can find and understand that professional canine nutritionists use for the planning, designing and implementing of “raw dog food”. I am on a quest to demystify the subject using my mathematical, Excel, and research skills to (eventually) open the world of raw dog food menu development and analysis to ANYONE interested in the subject.

In a separate area of interest, I have been cataloging as a test group of two (my dogs) the Vet-identified issues they had one year ago versus the Vet-confirmed mitigation or elimination of those issues as a result of recorded actions I have taken – most of which are raw dog food preparation since March 2017. This will be the subject of personally authored technical articles (for the future due to time constraints).

In short, my project addresses the ingredients, metrics, and nutrition stats associated with self-manufacturing “Raw Dog Food” vs buying “Commercially Mass-Produced Dog Food”. It is a very interesting subject that is also very detailed, analytical, and inter-related with post-feeding data capture such as weekly weigh-ins, trends of grams of food per batch, and documenting observed changes that can be correlated with a raw food diet.

I am already addressing much of this elsewhere on this DogFoodAdvisor forum. Perhaps you would like to participate or not. My next action is the nutrition analysis of KevinB’s post in Jan 2017 asking for comments on his menu. I am testing the veracity of my model (in progress) against his menu and will report out the micronutrition and vitamin information from the model (in a week or so).

I am not selling raw dog food preparation to anyone. In fact, I am cataloging the level of effort, skills, process, equipment, hygiene, and so on, of everything related to raw dog food preparation at home. I am a scientist, an engineer, and businessman addressing solutions to disinformation, misinformation, fog of lack of information, and or professional greed that keeps information from everyday people who need to know how to address their questions and resolve them for themselves related to raw dog food. This will be my contribution this year.

[anonymous]

Are you familiar with skeptvet? http://skeptvet.com/Blog/

Science-based veterinary medicine. I understand if you are not interested.

I don’t care to try raw ever again with any pets of mine.

But, that’s okay. See, we can agree to disagree 🙂

[poodaddy]

@ anon101

Yup, your advice is good. I am seeing some interesting communications behavior from people, particularly since I have not been an internet surfer or forum person. It is possible this forum may not be the place for my interests, but it may end up being a good place to converse about the project I am doing or peripheral subjects that arise. I know there some very knowledgeable people I have already met and who provided links that have moved my project forward (sources of data that professional consultants would not even give me), so that is a good thing. My interests are primarily science of the model and industry-leading sources of the data to move the model toward a fact-based objective system that can function as the start of the raw food nutrition planning AND be a source of in-progress implementation of a customized raw dog food menu. I am using the model as an analytical tool to evaluate a menu posted in the homemade section and that should be an interesting dialog once I have the nutrition data researched. If people get weird (unprofessional), I will follow your advice and ignore them.

[poodaddy]

Going to run this through my model and report what it looks like. Will report out as soon as I collect the nutrient data for Kevin B’s menu. My model DB has raw ingredients and is not set up for what Kevin B is doing, i.e. cooking dis and dat but will be an interesting exercise to see what pops out of the program.

[aimee]

I understand your point from a dog owner education standpoint but personally I just can’t bring myself to blame her.. it was a tragic event.

As for the company… something isn’t right here. Size aside if the chew that led to that dogs death tests out as rawhide ( I thought i read the actual chew was being tested) I think she has a valid court case.

[Susan]

Hi Poodaddy,
Welcome to DFA, I really enjoyed your story, the same thing happened with my cat Jeremy he was 10yrs old & his breath was awful, his teeth were full of tarter from eating wet tin food & dry kibble & a cooked food (what I ate) Jeremy loved his food & made daily visits to a few neigbours places, same time everyday for 14 yrs, he was a Main Coon, a beautiful big cat, he was the same height as my English Staffy Patch, his vet said we can clean his teeth & it will cost $460 & if any teeth need removing it will be an extra $50 per tooth, plus he will need a blood test before we can give him any anaesthetic cause he’s 10yrs old or you can start giving him chicken necks, vet said I’ve seen really good results giving cats chicken necks, so naturally I pick the safe & natural way to clean his teeth & I started giving him meaty chicken necks & chciken wings he loved them & the tarter started to come off his teeth & no more smelly breath, I just wish I fed him a raw diet earlier, poor Jeremy passed away age 14, then Patch became real sick again with his IBD vet didn’t know what was wrong, his diet hadn’t changed but he was having a bad IBD flare, STRESS he was really depressed since Jeremy had been PTS, so the best thing to do was adopt a new cat so off we went to the RSPCA, they knew we were coming & had a few cats waiting to met Patch, Patch picked this scrawny, skinny 5 month old street kitten with a bent tail, a bent ear & had had bad ear mites & was still being treated for really bad ear infection caused by the ear mites infestation, I said to Patch look there’s a beautiful looking ginger boy he’s friendly he’s a kitten he’s NOT SICK, but Patch really liked this little scrawny kitten & she really took to Patch, they both really liked each other straight away… As the days passed Patch got better & was like a young pup playing, running, giving his balls to this kitten, the kitten “Indy” washes him at night before bed & now she thinks she is a dog not a cat cause she has been brought up by a dog, Indy is feed a raw diet she eats everything & loves her freeze Dried Green Lipped Mussels every day…..

….”Steve Brown” when asked if you had to pick just 1 food to add to your dog bowl of fresh food to make it better, what would it be, Steve said Mussels… they’re cheap, they have Iodine, Manganese, Omega 3, DHA, EPA, Vitamin-D, alot of raw foods are short of Iodine, fats & Vitamin-D so add 1-2 mussels a day, also add 1 tablespoon of Salmon & a pinch of Kelp…Follow “Rodney Habib” on facebook. https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib

Rodney & Ty Bollinger interview medical professionals & cancer scientists to find the truth about PET CANCER & their new documentry “The Truth About Pet Cancer” is finally being released 17th October 2017….. Best thing you’ve done is put your dogs on a raw diet.. when I move into my house 1-2 months I’m re trying Patch on a raw diet again this time no enzymes or probiotics & I’ll see if it works out this time, I hate feeding him dry processed kibble & he see’s Indy getting raw meal, it breaks my heart…

[anonymous]

Vitamin C strikes (out) again

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2016/07/things-holistic-vets-say-about-cancer-that-should-make-pet-owners-run-the-other-way/ (excerpts out of context below, click on link for full article and comments) Nothing is being sold. Science-based veterinary medicine.

Things Holistic Vets Say About Cancer that Should Make Pet Owners Run the Other Way
Posted on July 5, 2016 by skeptvet
Cancer is a common and frightening disease, and many pet owners will have to face making decisions about cancer care for their pets at some point. While there are many therapies that can improve quality of life for a veterinary cancer patient, extend life, and even cure cancer in some cases, the painful reality is that there is much we don’t know about cancer. Often, cancer will be life limiting despite the best care possible.
This unpleasant reality leads many to seek alternative therapies for their pets with cancer. Unfortunately, those alternatives are almost never proven to be safe or effective, and many, such as homeopathy, are unquestionably nonsense. Yet despite the lack of evidence to support many alternative cancer treatments, and the evidence that shows some such treatments can cause real harm, some vets will try to frighten and mislead pet owners into avoiding scientific medical therapies and grasping at the various straws they offer, from homeopathy to acupuncture, from supplements and magical diets to outright magic such as so-called “energy medicine.”

“In the face of the ubiquitous unreliable information from holistic vets such as these, it can be hard to sort out which information is truly useful. Here are some resources that are a good bit more trustworthy”.
Veterinary Cancer Society (This group also has a tool for finding a board-certified veterinary cancer specialist.) Here are some of the links the VCS recommends:
ACVIM Foundation
American Animal Hospital Association Healthy Pets
American Association of Feline Practitioners
American College of Veterinary Radiology
Animal Cancer Center at CSU
Animal Cancer Foundation
Animal Clinical Investigation, LLC
Boo Radley Foundation
Brazilian Society of Veterinary Oncology
C3O: Center of Clinical Comparative Oncology
Canine Health Foundation
Cornell’s College of Veterinary Medicine “Consultant”
ESVONC (European Society of Veterinary Oncology)
Magic Bullet Fund
Perseus Foundation
PubMed
QuitDay.org
Morris Animal Foundation
The National Cancer Institute
UC Davis Comparative Cancer Center
University of Pennsylvania’s “Oncolink”
Vaccine Associated Feline Sarcoma Task Force
Veterinary Center for Clinical Trials at the University of California-Davis
Veterinary Society of Surgical Oncology
The Veterinary Cancer Center

[pitlove]

Hi Jessica-

Depending on the breed, a puppy will reach an adult at different ages. Small and medium sized dogs when fully grown can transition to adult food at 1 year, toy breeds can often switch earlier at 9 months, large dogs over 50lbs at mature weight is about 18 months and for giant breeds some say to keep them on a puppy formula until 24 months.

If he was already lean and fit before switching to raw and has now lost more weight, you may be under feeding him. I am all for a lean, conditioned dog, but you can go overboard. Any idea what Leo’s projected adult weight will be with that combo of breeds?

[MATT C]

Wow! That sounds like quite the project and quite the commitment. Since my wife is now working more hours (away from the home) we decided that this was not going to be the right time to transition Jasper’s diet. We’ll be looking for a time when I will be home for a stretch to deal with any digestive “issues”.

On a separate note, one of the major revelations regarding his gut issues came about a few weeks ago. We finally realized that his “flare-ups” (as we call them) have been coming a 4-5 days after his heart worm meds. So in an effort to reduce the number of things changing we are keeping his diet the same and we will omit this medicine. With luck, making this change will prevent his issues and eventually allow us to transition him to a natural diet.

We also found a fairly local raw food provider. Fortunately, we have a retailer in our area.

http://abbyschoice.com/home.html

This product (along with some supplement) will be fairly high on my list when looking at raw options 🙂

[poodaddy]

Ahhh … what a juicy topic and it seems full of emotion – perhaps a story of multiple parts which will eventually be relevant to chewing bones will help others – gotta love real life stories. Context – Not a Vet or a Licensed Dog whatever but have been training dogs from basic obedience to field trials (for about 40+ years of studying mostly working with many breeds in dog training clubs – some of the best times in my life – some of the most diverse professionals who were in those clubs – try it if you don’t do it). Was finished with years of shelties and open jumping and wanted a gun dog and to be active in a gun club in upstate PA. So studied up on it, and got an awesome yellow lab, bred for hunting, waited a year for him from a professional duck hunter, and was soooo excited when the day came for me to drive 10 hours to pick him up at 7 weeks old (1995 in Pennsylvania). Carefully trained the puppy to six months in puppy obedience (of course) with the understanding this was going to be a gun dog and of course our favorite home companion too! This big strong consistent smart yeller was amazing in the field under the tutelage of a retiring yellow lab female for upland game and an unreal black for water dog training. Yes, …. for those who do not know, gun dogs in high end clubs mostly learn from retiring master gun dogs and the owners learn from the professional handlers. That dog grew up able to chew, crush, devour anything with jaws and teeth that were bred to handle it (and snapping the neck of a really big furious goose when needed). Teeth were shiny white, never came close to breaking a tooth that I could see, no periodontal disease, healthy male lab, as loving as could be around children/people, but was a focused working dog in the field with an unbelievable level of hearing, great sight and instincts that made me a better person, hunter and handler. Fast forward, many years later, we were suffering from the loss of this companion and we get two pups (14 lb at maturity) cockapoos because I am done with hair in the house and I want a canine companion in my office with me in my 12-15 hour days as a business owner. After the poo male’s first broken adult tooth from meaty bone chewing and the female’s bowel issues from eating “stuff” not even close to bone fragments, and a couple vet visits, gone was bone chewing other than VERY careful observed knawing on some softer meaty bones that are more trouble than they are worth due to the messiness – but the poos love them nonetheless. We were driven to address the anal gland secretion issues, the normal onset of periodontal disease at the 4 year mark and scale build up, bad breath, …

* We learned something REMARKABLE after our vet informed us we must make an appointment for two dogs to be anesthetized and get their teeth cleaned (expensive situation that carried some risk). Early in this year 2017, for different reasons, I embarked on a journey of raw food self-education primarily for anal gland issues and my growing nervousness of kibble, my reading about how commercial dog food is prepared, and my ignorance of what is in it (we were feeding them Blue Buffalo Company products) which may be high quality but I did not trust any kibble and the dogs were finicky with any kibble diet. Since March 2017, their diet (100% raw) has apparently changed their body chemistry so dramatically that the scale on their teeth started “slowly dissolving” after about 6 weeks. Their breath changed in about a week or two for the better. I could rake the scale off with the slightest pressure from a fingernail after a month. The follow on vet visit since then resulted in “anal gland secretion problem resolved” – saved $60/visit/60 days gone due to firm stools from ground bone in the raw diet, “periodontal disease problem – $1600/both dogs resolved” due to (1) the change in digestive chemistry according to our vet with my research concluding the same, (2) and combined with once a week brushing to keep removing the scale, “all digestive issues of periodic loose stools or strange eating habits – resolved as they love the raw food diet we manufacture. So, what is the relevance? The risks of raw meaty bones with a dog directly correlate to the breed, size, and situation. At least this is the conclusion from our real life experience, backed up by concurrence with our vet, and it is consistent with our friends’ experiences who have smaller poo-hybrids versus those with labs. Who is learning? The human for certain … and both the human and dog are benefiting. Booya for education, trial and error, doing things for the love of the dog, and persistence!

[poodaddy]

Hi Matt, ditto all the above. I am very new to forums in general (about two weeks ago) and noticed your post. First, one cannot over-research raw feeding – not possible in my opinion. It is a tremendous subject that I have been reading about and developing an Excel application for since March of this year. Started our two canine companions on a raw food diet on 18 Mar 2017 and have been refining it every month since; it is a Sunday morning labor of love I guess. So, … if you are into model development, raw food manufacturing AND applying the science/data that will produce a balanced and healthy diet, let me know. I could certainly use some collaboration since every “consultant” I reached out to seemed to run away from the project I guess thinking it was a threat which of course is silly in my view. Am about 90% with the model and nearing the output that will highlight the deficiencies of each micronutrient and vitamin against the daily standard needed for balanced and healthy meals. It is a lot more effort than I originally thought and that does not even address the actual work involved in menu prep, shopping, preparation, and cleanup for a 60-day supply of food for two dogs. The model also captures level of effort in hours, and price/cost of the menu. Manufacturing the food is a giant production operation that is a LOT OF WORK but we are passionate about the results it has achieved for our two cockapoos not to mention the vet bills avoided. Lots learned and a lot more to go.

[poodaddy]

Excellent. Exactly what I was looking for and what my raw model needs. Thank you!

[aimee]

Pitlove,

I understand why people lay blame at the owners feet but I’m reluctant to. It was a small size chew but a 11 inch chew could have resulted in the same problem. The dog given a larger chew could have sheared off a shorter portion and swallowed. That is Brooke handles linear chews which is why they are not an option for her.

I also agree that Thixton has a history of not letting facts get in the way of a good story and jumps to conclusions.

Does it matter if the chew was hide? I think it plays a role here. I could see someone assuming that a chew made of those ingredients would break apart from jaw pressure from such a large dog, more like giving your dog a large biscuit whereas that assumption likely wouldn’t be made with hide.

a.c.
I paid 5.99 for 4 inch piece of No Hide and 1.18 for a similar sized rawhide. So yes people are paying a premium for this product.

[Jessica S]

Hi everyone!

The Basic Question: At what age does a puppy become an adult?

New to the forum, and new to raw feeding. I have really enjoyed browsing this forum – what a wealth of information! I transitioned my Pit Bull/Red Heeler/Rottweiler pup Leo to the raw diet about 3 weeks ago. He is SO into it..no surprise there, as he loves any and all food.

Leo is 11 months old. I’ve been feeding him based on the adult guidelines (2-3% of weight), but it occurred to me last week that maybe I should be feeding based on puppy guidelines (more like 10% of weight).

He looks very healthy – trim and fit. It does look as though he may have lost some weight since he made the transition to raw, but he still looks great.

What’s the consensus? Should I up his feeding amount a few percentages?

[a c]

After losing my 10 years old to lymphoma earlier this year, I really started to take a close look at the dog food. I have been feeding them primarily Hill’s Science Diet since they were puppies because that’s what vet has recommended.

I went to a local pet store, I was told Orijen is the best out there in addition to the raw diet. I bought Origen and small bags of Stella and Chewy, Primal, and Honest Kitchen to try. My the other 10 year old end up with pancreatitis. She was put on IV therapy, metronidazole, and Science Diet ID can food. Then, I was told to put her on low fat Purina One Smartblend Weight management kibbles.

It has been a struggle to find low fat, good ingredients, and no/low toxin dog food. It shouldn’t be this hard.

[a c]

I understand.

However, if I pay over $1 for each piece of No Hide chews, I expect there is no rawhide. Otheise, I can pay $10 or less for 50 rawhides.

Company has been dishonest and misleading the consumers.

[pitlove]

Hi a c
Regardless of what Earth animal chews are made of the incident with the dog dying is 100% owner error. This women bought a 4 in chew for a 125 lb French Mastiff, took a 90 minute conference call and had her back turned away from him. The chew got lodged in his throat and never made it to his stomach, so raw hide or not doesn’t matter.

Susan Thixon once again took a horrible story and ran with it blaming the company instead of the irresponsible owner trying to save money buying a treat far too small for their dog.

[Bobby dog]

Hello Atlas:
My pup was on an Rx food for a month for digestive issues. I transitioned her back to her regular diet with no issues.

I have used Rx diets for my cats as well. I made the mistake of taking one of them off early. His health issue returned not to mention he had to endure more visits to the Vet.

For training maybe single ingredient freeze dried treats would be an option. Some I feed are Nature’s Variety, Stella & Chewie, Grandma Lucy, Vital Essentials, Primal, and Stewarts.

If food is an issue you can never know for sure if an OTC food is free from a protein your dog might react to. OTC foods, even LID or sensitive recipes, might be similar in ingredients to Rx foods, however they are not guaranteed to be free of proteins not listed on the bag as Rx foods are. Completely breaking down the equipment and sanitizing after each batch of food to prevent cross contamination is costly and time consuming. This along with other procedures adds to the price of Rx foods. Here’s an article on the subject:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/150515a.aspx

If an elimination diet is ever recommended for your pup keep in mind you can also go the homemade route; your Vet would be able to advise you on a recipe. Some articles explaining elimination diets, food intolerances, and allergies:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2499

You can find these articles on “DVM360” the links won’t post just copy and paste the titles in their search:
“The finer points of food elimination trials: A veterinary nutritionist’s take”
“Choosing the right elimination diet for food allergic cases”

I suggest keeping an open mind. I found this site several years ago because my dog had terrible skin and coat issues. I assumed it was his diet, not the case. He’s all healed up and the only maintenance he needs is weekly baths (monthly in the winter) with a shampoo that has specific ingredients, nothing else, just baths. I did move onto other food choices, however I feed him everything under the sun with no issues. Kibble, canned, commercial raw, balanced homemade, grains, grain free, fruits, veggies, common meat proteins, I don’t even transition to new foods. Good luck! 😉

[Susan]

Hi,
I posted a post the other day but it’s not here now??.. Yes go back to just feeding the Natural Balance kibble, what meat protein is in the NB formula he’s eating??
When I rescued Patch he had just turned 4yrs old, I didn’t know what he could eat & what he couldn’t eat & in the end that’s why his 4th vet put him on another vet diet that finally worked & firmed up poos but caused itchy smelly yeasty paws & skin, cause he cant eat Chicken his stomach & bowel is OK eating chicken but he gest Yeasty itchy paw & skin & carrots cause yeasty, itchy, smelly ears, you know Atlas does well on the Natural Balance formula & you know he can eat Chicken & Potatoes so that’s a pretty good start, so he Defently has food intolerances, if his gut was un healthy then he’d be like Patch was when I first rescued him, no matter what he ate he do OK poo’s then he was doing poos with jelly on them or like a condom over the poo (Food Sensitivities), then he was doing sloppy yellow poos (S.I.B.O) that smelt awful, that’s how a “GOOD” vet knows if the dog has either S.I.B.O, IBD, EPI, Food Intolerances…..when their poos are yellow it’s their small bowel that’s not working properly…Patches new vet said lets try the vet diet Eukanuba Intestinal low residue formula it wasthe only vet diet Patchhadn’t tried & finally he was doing smaller firm poo’s & only 2 or 3 poos a day then his vet wanted him to stay on the Eukanuba Intestinal vet diet for 9-12months to let his stomach & bowel heal as he probably has been doing sloppy awful poos most of his life, that’s why he ended up at a pound I’d say, his owner just didnt care, probably when Patch was Atlas age his owner didnt bother trying to work out what was wrong with him & just kept feeding him ingredients he was sensitive too & that has now caused IBD one of Patches vet said…..

I would just feed the Natural Balance for 1 month NO Kefir as this could have caused the
in-balance in his stomach & bowel, S.I.B.O, this is why you only add 1 new food or supplement at 1 time maybe every 1-2 weeks then you know 100% it’s the new food or supplement you’ve added to diet causing sloppy/diarrhea poo’s…
Look at the ingredient list in the “Kirkland Nature’s Domain” I would start doing an Elimination Food Diet start adding peas to his cooked meal start off slowly under 1/4 of a cup for 2 days then increase the amount of peas if he doesn’t have sloppy poos diarrhea in the 2 weeks chances are he can eat peas, then I would stop the peas & start adding boiled peeled Sweet Potato also for treats start making jerky treats, you know he can eat chicken so make Chicken Jerky, if he can eat sweet potato make sweet potato jerky as well or I was making Pork & beef rissoles, I was buying very lean grounded pork mince or beef mince adding 1 whisked egg & 1 teaspoon chopped parsley mixing all together & making small Pork rissoles balls or making separate beef rissoles, I’d foil lined a baking tray & bake them in the oven, they only took about 10 mins on 1 side then half way I would drain any fat & water & turn the rissoles over then cook another 10mins after you cool the rissoles I freeze, then break up a few rissoles & give as treats or I mashed a few rissole balls with some boiled sweet potato for lunch….
It does take time doing an elimination food diet but in the end you will know 100% what he can & cant eat…

The only other thing you can do is if you see a vet ask the vet can he write you a repeat script for some “Metronidazole” a few months worth to keep at home so if Atlas becomes unwell again or when you start introducing a new kibble you put Atlas on the Metronidazole tablets for 2 weeks while intoducing the new kibble, a few dogs in the Canine IBD group see IBD Specialist & this is what their vet specialist has told them to do, same as Patch in the end I had to so I could change his vet diet, I couldn’t handle him smelly & scratching from the chicken in the vet diet, I’d start him on a new kibble he’d be doing really well, good poos then around 2 & 1/2 months later his poos went yuk & soft again, the vet didn’t know what was wrong was his gut bacteria going out of balance too much bad bacteria again?? vet couldnt work out what was happening was it food sensitivities/intolerances as they can take anywhere from 1 day to react up to 6 weeks to start reacting, but this was 2 months later, this is why your better off starting an elimination food trial & start with adding the ingredients in the Kirkland Turkey & Sweet Potato formula or a kibble you want to feed, I’d start with adding boiled Peas, then Sweet Potatoes, blueberries as treats add to his cooked meal & see how he goes, it will be 3 steps forward 2 steps backwards in the beginning, so make sure you keep a diary, I always look back on Patches diarys when I need to rememeber something……
Patch was doing really really well most of 2016 while eating the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb kibble & having a cooked meal Pork Rissoles & sweet potatoes he was drinking heaps of water maybe 2-3 times a week, vet did all these test they showed nothing was wrong, so vet said it could be pain related so I had introduced “Canidae Pure Wild Boar” then he started whinging after 2months of introducing the Canidae, his poos were bigger & softer on the Canidae in the beginning but got better as the weeks went by plus he was eating TOTW for his bigger meals breakfast & 1st dinner, Canidae was givin for Lunch & a second dinner the Canidae were smaller meals, he was geeting his pain right side Stomach/Pancreas area I thought the Canidae was too high in Kcals it was over 400 Kcals per cup this has happened before with another kibble so I started to introduced a new kibble Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Digestion Lamb then his poos went real sloppy again & smelly he had been eating the same kibbles all Spring & Summer TOTW Canidae no poo problems until the I added the Purina Digestion, Sensitive Stomach cause Patches pain right side, Patches American vet Sue had recommendd I try Purina months before so this is why I tried the Purina, the vet Sue blammed environment allergies & said his immune system has gone into over drive from his allergies & he’s reacting but I think it was more from when I started to add Purina Sensitive Stomach kibble to his diet it had Barley in it, I dont think he does well when the kibble has barley in it or he had an imbalance in the bowel S.I.B.O & they get abnormal amounts bacterica accumulate in the small bowel making their poos go yuk again, something he was eating put his gut/bowel floria out of wack again & causes too much bad bacteria then he starts doing very sloppy poos again, that’s what happens with Small Intestinal Bowel Overgrowth (S.I.B.O) it happens in young dogs, they can’t put on any weight they stop growing, maybe Atlas has a few Intestinal problems, he has his Food Sensitivities & he might get SIBO as well & the Kefir set off the SIBO again, Metronidazole gets rid of the S.I.B.O & then the gut/bowel is balanced again…..

It’s very hard working out your dog what agrees with him & what doesn’t, I’ve learnt more thru people in canine IBD groups who have been thru all this, there’s a good small F/B group called ” Irritable Bowel Disease & G.I Related Diseases In Dogs UK” group on Face Book, the Amercan Canine IBD group the lady who runs it just pops in & tells everyone to go & see your vet & the poor people have been & seen their vets & they still have no answers what’s wrong with their por dog, I’m noticing over the years there’s a few bad vets in America, I dont think a vet in America has to study as long as an Australian or UK vet does?? cause Patches vet Sue is American & she said when she came to Australia in the late 80’s she had to do another 2 years study to work as a vet in Australia & also in Australia vets have to follow up with yearly courses… Patches really good 2nd vet Simon he did Patches Endoscope & Biopsies, he’s very busy & very hard to see he’s always operating etc he knows heaps about the stomach/bowel, he’s the vet that isnt really into giving dogs PRObiotics to dogs, he said there’s no real scientific proof about PRObiotic work in dogs, but if you think your seeing an improvement he said then give Patch the Probiotics but make sure it’s a dog probiotic that are stored in the fridge, “Protexin Soluble”, I said Probiotics seem to make Patch feel sick, he starts his mouth licking & swollowing but only some days this would happen, then Simon said when it comes to PREbiotics he said yes he has found Prebiotics did help & work on some of the dogs he’s treated… I never saw any real improvement with Patch but I did when he was on “NAS, Digestavite Plus” Powder, its a dog prebiotic with vitamins that balances raw or cooked meals he was eating, I went thru a Naturopath with Patchto put him on a raw diet in te end before I found the TOTW & Canidae kibbles, his vet referred Patch to a Holistic Vet but shewas very expensive $180 a hour, so I saw a Animal Naturopath Nutritionist instead, she cost $60 a hour, she makes the “Natural Animal Solutions” products, the Digestavite Plus Powder has Glutimine, Inulin, Spinach leaf powder, Parsley leaf, Beetroot powder, Broccoli, Green Tea, Grapeseed extract, Ginger, Slipperly Elm, Stem Bark, Milk Thistle, Acacia Powder, then Vitamin B1, B2 B3, B5 B12,D3, Patches poos were beautiful & firm when he has the Digestavite Plus Pawder over his cooked & raw meals….
You can ask the vet about weekly Vitamin B12 injections, the B12 really helps dogs that keep having diarrhea slopping poos..
Just see how Atlas goes just eating the Natural Balance for 1 month then introduce 1 new food to his diet nothing else. Good-Luck he’s your special boy.. I’m rescueing another dog soon, Patch is turning 9yrs old, 20th November…I’m going to make sure she does NOT have any Allergies or Stomach/Bowel problems. sorry about the long posts but there’s too much information to leave out..

[a c]

Aimee,

I get emails from Truthaboutpetfood.com Their email from 7/27, 2017 stated that a PHD leather chemist said that” No-hide chew is absolutely rawhide split material”.

A dog has died from the treat stuck in the dog’s throat.

I used to buy No-hide chews. Not anymore.

[Jeff S]

So I have a 14 week old Australian Labradoodle puppy who I was possibly transitioning to raw or at least mostly raw—want to keep some kibble to make it easier for travel and friends watching her. Anyway started transitioning her to Raw about a week ago. Have been using a sample pack from Darwin’s as well as some Primal Raw frozen–both chicken. She seems to be doing generally ok, although it seems that for about 1/2-1 hour after she eats, she gets very hyper–sometimes running in big circles with her tail between her legs and/or being very restless. Spoke with Darwins’ but they said they haven’t heard of this. has anyone experienced this? So far I have been only giving her commercial raw, except for yesterday when I gave her a piece of raw turkey wing (which she enjoyed and chewed up pretty well). Yesterday about 3 hours after eating the turkey wing she did regurgitate with much of the turkey looking undigested (she re-ate it). She then seemed fine. After playing for a bit and taking a nap she seemed very hungry so gave her a handful of kibble (Acana). About another 2-3 hours after, she threw up agin–mostly partially digested kibble. She was good the rest of the night (slept through until morning). Fed her kibble this morning and she was good most of the day. Fed her some more raw (Darwins chicken at lunch) got a bit hyper again but was good most of the rest of the day until after dinner–which was some more Darwins and a bit of Allprovide. Again shortly after eating she got very hyper, racing around the yard picking up sticks, etc.

So, is this normal? Am I transitioning her too quickly? is the hyper ness possibly an upset stomach (she sometimes seems to run and sit quickly–once and a while dragging her butt a bit (has been dewormed plus saw a tapeworm before i stated the raw and she was dewormed for that as well).

Also, since we’ve had her she has been a bit itchy/biting around the base of her tail and back legs, although the vet could not find any fleas and didn’t think it should be any more worms. Since starting the raw nothing has really changed with the itching (I realize it is kind of soon to expect any change in that–just bringing it up in case it’s a sign of something else).

Anyway, anyone have any thoughts. Not while I’m writing this, she has been panting a bit heavily and looked like she was going to vomit again although nothing happened.

Thanks

Jeff

[Susan]

Hi Anand.
I just click on your “Drools Focus” link & it looks pretty good, it tells you how much raw protein is in the food 40%, normally pet foods never write how much meat protein % is in their formula cause of the plant proteins like Chickpeas, Lentils they also up the protein %…. People don’t reliese ingredient list are written when the ingredients are raw, so after ingredients are cooked they move into different positions on the ingredient list…
Just make sure you rotate between a few different brands that have different meat proteins & ingredients so your boy eats different ingredients & he’s not just eating the same brand 24/7, rotating kibbles & foods strengthens the immune system & reduces the risk of allergies & other symptoms developing later on, also some kibble/brands are very high in toxins as we are learning, there’s no testing in pet foods for toxins…. Google “Toxins & Contaminates in Pet Foods”.

[Anand B]

I have a 2 month old lab. Ever since i got her i have been researching dog food. I used to think Pedigree being popular must be great. Turns out its one of the worst. Intitially i got Royal Canin Maxi Puppy but on reading that its not much better i switched to a local brand Drools and their premium range (Focus) as their ingredients look pretty good. Since its not reviewed here would like opinion about it.

Ingredients: Drools Focus Puppy
Raw Material:- Real Chicken(>40%), Whole Dried Eggs, Long Grain Rice, Oatmeal, Flax Seed Oil, Sunflower Oil, Fish Oil, lecithin, salt, Beet Pulp. Vitamins:- Vit A: 22000 IU, Vit D3: 1500 IU, Vit E: 250 Mg, Vit C: 150 Mg, B1: 8 Mg, B2: 22 Mg, B6: 11 Mg, Choline: 2500 mg, folic acid- 2 Mg,Beta-carotene-50mg and Others: Natural Antioxidants (Rosemary Extract),L Cranitine, Probiotics and Prebiotics,Essential Amino Acid , Organic mineral.

[Susan]

Hi Panya,
I can’t stop laughting, Patch does the same his farts scare him when he’s sleeping & he farts he jumps up & runs off my bed lol when his farts are loud, he’s the same he doesn’t fart now he’s eating the right diet….
Go on Face Book & in the “Search” bar put “Canine Pancreatitis Support Group” join then look on your left & click on “Files” then click on first link “Low Fat Foods” you’ll see all low fat dry & wet tin foods, scroll down look at the wet canned low fat foods, I would be feeding a low fat wet tin food instead of dry kibble or feed low fat wet tin for 1 meal & dry low fat kibble for other meal…. Wet canned or cooked diet is heaps better for dogs who have suffered with Pancreatitis as kibble is harder to digest & is higher in carbs, the fat% has been converted in all these wet tin formula’s, the fat % is to your right, the fat % in raw & wet canned food hasn’t been converted to dry matter (Kibble)….Hills convert their fat % in all their vet diets but the other vet diets brands are not converted, so stay around 1-3% fat in wet tin foods when looking to buy any…
If you still want to feed a dry kibble look at “Canidae” Pure Meadow Senior, it’s low in Fat at 10.80% max, very easy to digest & has all the supplements for an aging dog…
always email the pet food companies & get the accurate max fat % & protein % in wet & dry food your thinking of feeding. I’ve already emailed Canidae & got the fat % in the Pure Meadow Senior, it’s a really good kibble it has No Prebiotic “Chicory Root” you will see a big improvement in your dogs skin coat & health while eating te Canidae Pure Meadow Senior formula there’s also Pure Resolve weight management but teh Senior has all te supplements to a senior dog & te fat % is the same..
Here’s Canidae’s site scroll down a bit & click on “VIEW ALL” on your left, click on page 3 has the Pure Meadow Senior & Page 5 has the Canidae All Life Stages Platinum Less Active kibble its low fat easying to digest & good for dogs with Pancreatitis. https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products

[Mike Sagman]

Hi Barbara,

We currently list various versions of 3 raw dog food brands in our Editor’s Choice members area:

Nature’s Variety
Primal
Stella and Chewy’s

Although there are other raw foods that get 4 or more stars on the regular website, none of them meet all our requirements for Editor’s Choice. You can find most of these guidelines listed in this article:

An Insider’s Guide to Finding Superior Dog Food Brands

Hope this helps.

[Susan]

Hi Dina,
I live Australia & alot of foods that are NOT American made will not be on DFA review site…
DFA is an American pet food site….
Google “UK Pet Food Reviews” & the UK pet food site comes up, I just put in “Unipaws in the “UK Pet Food Review” site & nothing comes up, so a UK pet food company must just make the Unipaws specially for dogs in Indonesia & it’s not sold in the UK or its sold under a different name…
Can you get any Australian or American pets foods in Indonesia?
can you get American brands “Acana” “Merrick” “Canidae” or here’s a few Australian & New Zealand made brands “Meals For Mutts” “A La Carte” “Ivory Coat” ” Ziwi Peak” K-9 Natural” “Barf Dr B’s” that are sold overseas…

A good dry kibble will have 2-4 meat proteins as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th ingredients followed be a carb, the meat protein should be followed by a meal, cause when they write the ingredient list the ingredients are raw & after these ingredients are cooked they shrink & move up the ingredient list & are not 1st or 2nd no more…..

Here’s an example of a 5 star kibble…
“Canidae” Pure Sky” formula, Duck, Duck Meal, Turkey Meal, Sweet Potatoes, Peas, Chicken Fat, Potatoes, Suncured Alfalfa, natural falvours, minerals & vitamins,
Protein-32%, Fat-16%, Fiber-4%, Carbs-30%
What are the first 5 ingredients in the Unipaws formula your feeding?

[Barbara L B]

Not looking for trouble, just checking, as a newer raw feeding dog. Currently have Steve’s, Darwin’s and Primal in the freezer and frankly Steve’s is looking good at half the price of the other two.

[anonymous]

Try a fresh cold raw carrot to chew on. My dogs love them as a once a day snack. You could even freeze them first (good for teething puppies) but it’s not necessary.
A good source of fiber, low calorie. Don’t be alarmed if you see carrot chunks in their feces, this is normal and harmless.
Also keep an eye on your dogs to make sure they are not gulpers (choking hazard) and that they chew/gnaw/ break them down before eating.

[poodaddy]

This thread is old (2014) then jumps to 2017. If anyone is tracking on this subject, and wants to collaborate in a specific “area” of this site, who can help understand how to manage a forum or subject, concerning the pursuit of and finishing of a raw dog food system that is complete from create the menu, crunch the numbers, determine the supplements (from the science of nutrition), let me know. I am into this in a big way, have been cataloging the personal journey from knowing nothing to gaining 100% control of the data, have the background in model development, and have the interest in using science to demystify it all. And it is all driven by my love for my two cockapoos and nothing else.

I am on a quest to find a group (of one or more) who have this interest as I am at the 90% stage on completing the project.

[poodaddy]

Here is my “3 cents” on the “raw dog food” subject: (1) there is the observation aspect of positive change in stool, gland secretion, in some cases behavior, athletic performance noticeable by all those I am associated with in the transition of commercial to raw (not cooked), (2) there is the science aspect of knowing through nutrition science what the menu actually is from researching/collecting the food data and analyzing it for macro, micro, vitamin, fatty acids data, and (3) there is the analytical aspect of comparing the menu results from (2) above to industry standards for minimum daily requirements adapted to your dog’s lifestyle/function and supplementing the raw menu to meet that standard.

I have completed (1) and (2) in an open Excel system and am working toward (3) at this time. I am interested in collaborating with a group of people who are highly interested in the above, and in so doing move the raw food discussion to a far higher level.

[poodaddy]

Michael B,

For about 5 months now, I have been developing an integrated system using Excel as a complete nutrition model specifically targeted at total visibility of all elements/variables for raw dog food preparation. This initiative is not for commercial sale, is for my use to control every aspect of planning, designing, shopping, manufacturing, and feeding my dogs. The system has two items remaining to be complete before I am comfortable starting to share my knowledge, and the software development: (1) industry recognized source of canine MDR (wet) or MDR (dry with conversion methodology to wet) for all micro-nutrients and vitamins and (2) sources for concluding my research into supplements to finish the balancing.

So,… if you want to start a dialog on this, let me know.

[poodaddy]

Rea, I can assist you. I just joined this forum today and need some advice on how to navigate inside it and find the right place for my interests. Would you help me or introduce me to someone far more knowledgeable with on-line forums that I am?

On your question about carbs, there is the theoretical response based on nutrition science and there is the practical how to do it. Will provide you with the practical and see if this satisfies your need.

Assumption: requirement is to calculate carbs in grams weight from a known food of a known weight.

Approach: find that food’s nutrition profile that states the carb content per serving.

Data Source: use nutritiondata.self.com to find the food’s macro nutrient profile. There are other sources but let’s use this one.

Method:
(1) select per 100g on the site pull down.
(2) record the database results for carb content per 100g.
(3) weigh your sample in g (or convert your food weight to g).
(4) food weight (g) x food data [carb (g) per food sample size 100 (g)] = carb (g).

Illustration: what is the carb content of 1.3 lbs of raw zucchini
(1) go to http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2639/2

(2) record the data for a pull down selection sample size of 100 g to be 1.2g Prot, 3.3g Carb, and 0.2g Fat.

(3) convert your sample to (g). Let’s say you weight your 1.3 lb in grams and it shows 591g. The conversion factor for lbs to g is 453.592 g/lb, i.e. weight lbs x 453.592 g/lb = weight g.

(4) 591 g Zucchini x 3.3 g Carb per 100 g sample = 19.5 g Carb.

Hope this fully clarifies the matter for you. poodaddy

P.S. For the percent, assuming you were looking for the percent of carbs in zucchini, it could be as simple as reading the percent data from the nutrition database output Or you could use the 3.3 g Carb per 100 g sample = 3.3% by weight. The only issue with this in isolation is to do this for a menu, requires the total grams of Carb for all foods in the menu to be divided by the total grams of the menu x 100 for the percent of Carb in that menu.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by poodaddy. Reason: Need to finish the response based on question related to "percent"

[Cotons mom]

Can someone tell me which vaccines I can get titers drawn on. Both my pups are due but I don’t want to give unless they actually need them. I live in Virginia so I know they have to get the rabies, but I don’t want to give something.
thanks

[Susan]

Hi,
Compared to Whole earth farms yes you probably are getting more meat protein with the Crave dog food, the Whole earth farm when I had a look at a few formula’s only had 1 meat meal as 1st ingredient then a carb that was it…
The Crave Dog Food has chickpeas, (Garbanzo beans) as 3rd ingredient then its has pea protein as 4th ingredient, then split peas as 5th ingredient, it’s a bit pea heaving, this is call ingredient spliting, where the pet food companies write pea protein, pea flour, pea fiber etc instead of just writing peas, if they just wrote peas the peas would probably be 1st or 2nd ingredient, so they splilt the same food ingredients up to move it further down the ingredient list….

When the ingredient list is written it’s done when the ingredients are raw not cooked, so it’s good there’s Chicken Meal, Lamb Meal & Salmon Meal, it would have been better if the ingredient list read, Chicken, Chicken meal, Lamb Meal, Salmon Meal, then potatoes, peas, & chickpeas, you’d probably would be getting 29% meat protein, the rest would be plant protein but at the moment your probably getting around 20-24% meat protein & the rest is plant proteins??…
It would be good if these pet food companies had to write the plant protein % & the meat protein % on the kibble bag, we’d probably have a shock with how low the meat protein really is in these kibbles especially all these’s new grain free kibbles using chickpeas, lentils pea protein, split peas, pea flour, pea fiber, pea starch etc, these ingredients up the protein %…

Rotate between a few different brands with limited ingredients that agree with your dog that have a few different ingredients this way your dog isnt eating the same ingredients 24/7 then reacting to an ingredient cause that’s all he’s been eating, look for a kibble with 3 meat proteins as 1st 2nd 3rd ingredients then sweet potatoes, peas, rice, barley, are better sometimes then these grain free kibbles that are higher fiber & proteins cause they have chickpeas lentils peas as 2nd, 3rd or 4th & 5th ingredients…

[Susie]

Hi there. My 12 yr old has several sebaceous adenomas and until recently they weren’t giving her trouble. Recently one on her flank began bleeding and not healing so off to the vet. The vet said he could do cryotherapy but because he wouldn’t use a local we opted to see if it would heal and just leave it. It’s been a month now and it won’t heal. Our vet gave us quadritop so I’ve been using it and still it’s not healing but not getting worse either. She’s not licking it so that it isn’t the problem. The ointment could be the culprit. I have an appointment with a dermatologist in 2 weeks and if we remove it they do use a local anesthetic and or a mild sedative to calm her. Has anyone any experience with this? I would like to hear he good and the bad as I am so nervous. Hers is smaller than an eraser. The real issue is not the adenoma but the skin surrounding it is dark red and in a few areas it kind of looks open and raw. Would you all go to a dermatologist or would you just let your basic vet handle it? I just thought a dermatologist would be able to give her better treatment and maybe have a better more efficient treatment plan. Thank you.

[Atlas T]

Thanks again to everyone for all the info! I hear both of you on the reasons to choose the Salmon food (continuation of the current protein) or the Turkey food (the fish one might have more toxins). I’ll have to weigh the good and the bad and make some decisiosn. A few quick responses:

-Susan, on the bones – I have some raw beef bones that I gave him about 1.5 months ago. It sort of coincided with his belly issues, so I have some hesitation whether raw bones could have contributed. What are your thoughts? Do you think it’s ok to give raw bones to a 7mo old puppy with some tummy issues? Or should I wait until we’re totally in the clear? And in regards to Rodney Habib, I’ll check him out. As to the healthy treats/toppers, shall I wait to give him those until his tummy is more sorted? I wonder if raw carrots or things like that may do more harm than good at this point.

-CockalierMom, thanks for the recommendation of calculating calories. I took some time to do that yesterday, and seems like I’ve been feeding him exactly the right amount, maybe even a bit on the high side. Given all that, he still seems super hungry. Should I give him more food? He does get quite a bit of exercise. We are on day 5 of the LID food, and he is getting 2.5 cups of that per day, as well as 1.5lbs potato, and .5lbs chicken (more info below). Great point about the LID not being All Life Stages, I hadn’t considered that.

——————————————–
General updates:

We are on day 5 of the LID food, and he is getting 2.5 cups of that per day, as well as 1.5lbs potato, and .5lbs chicken (more info below). Maybe this week, I’ll start incorporating some of the Nature’s Domain into it and seeing if his poop continues to be ok. One thing to me that seems strange about his poop is that in the morning and early afternoon, he has great solid poop. Towards the end of the day, the poop gets much softer (though never to the point that I’d call diarrhea). I’m not totally sure what to attribute this to. Maybe he processes food more quickly during the day and it doesn’t get fully processed by the time he poops it out? Also, (sorry if this is TMI) when his poop starts coming out, it’s quite solid, but towards the end of the poo, it is much more soft. Also, he is pooping very frequently still, about 5-6 times per day. It’s not like he urgently needs to go, but we take him on lots of walks, and he always takes advantage of being outside to poop.

On a different note, we’ve run into another problem. Before, his food used to be out all day, but now that it’s perishable because I’m cooking it, he gets specific feeding times and amounts. He’s become a bit possessive of his food, which he’s never been before :-/ He allows us to touch and move his bowl without a problem, but he starts growling if we pet him while he’s eating, especially if we touch his paws or tummy. I am trying to combat this by doing some handfeeding so he understands the food comes from us, as well as holding his bowl while he eats and stroking him, even if he growls. I have zero fears about him actually biting, but I welcome more feedback on whether I’m addressing this correctly, and what else I should be doing to combat this behavior. He doesn’t do this with anything else…not bones, not his favorite toys, etc.

[LuAnn T]

I nominate Northwest Naturals frozen raw complete diet 5 lb roll dog food in chicken and turkey varieties. You have a review of this dog food on your site with a 5 star enthusiastically recommended note. I have fed it for over a year and my dogs are much improved in health and agility because of the change. Even their teeth don’t have the plaque build up. My Aussie is 13 and had bad hips but now runs like a 2 year old, and a German Shepherd which is a breed with hip concerns and she is active at 8 years of age and excellent health.

Thanks for the reviews!
LuAnn T

[Susan]

Hi Atlas,
I would feed the Natural Balance Fish & Potato for 4-6 months to let his Gi tract settle & heal or start him on the the brand that is cheaper, the Kirklands Natures Domain Turkey Sweet Potato formula this way you have some of the Natural Balance Fish & Potato formula to introduce with the kibble & just feed that kibble for 4-6months then once he seems stable rotate between a few different brands with a different protein source… & make sure they do not have Chickpeas & Lentils..

He’s probably growing it’s called “growth spurt” it happens between 8-12months old, google Growth Spurts in dogs….
You could give him a meaty raw bone, no cooked bones, this way he chewing & keeping busy & he’s eating something & you could feed him 3 smaller meals a day instead of just 2 larger kibble meals a day, that will keep him feeling fuller.
I follow “Rodney Habib” on his face Book page watch his videos, his vidoe’s are quick & to teh point & really good, he recommends blueberries, apple, healthy whole foods added as a topped to kibble fed dogs I give the toppers as a treat instead, if your dog likes cooked food instead then feed him cooked meals & try & feed less kibble he’ll be healthier….

The only problem I have with fish kibble they are higher in toxins & contamintes.
Have a look at Clean Label Project 2nd test study on kibbles, wet foods & treats, alot of the expensive brands some of their formula’s came back very high in Toxins & Acrylamides & BPA & BPS… Kirkland had a few formula’s, so did TOTW & I think Nature Balance had a few brands high in toxins, you’ll have to look thru & see which formula’s only got 1-2 stars
here’s the link below click on it, read thru then scroll back up & look to your left & click on “Dry Dog Foods” you’ll see all the 5 star foods then go to pages 11 thru to 16 is teh start to all the bad 1 star brands & the formula’s that tested very high in toxins. Just stay away from these formula’s if you can…..
The last 2 Summers I’ve been rotatating Patches kibbles to a fish kibble cause he has skin allergies in Spring & Summmer months & fish formula’s are higher in Omega 3, my vet & I couldn’t work out why poor Patch was doing really well thru the Winter months then after I started feeding him new fish formula’s that didnt have any ingredients he is sensitive too “Wellness” Complete Health, White Fish & Sweet Potato, he got sloppy poos & was unwell, so I put him back on his TOTW Roasted Lamb formula he was good again then I introduuced & tried “Earthborn Holistic” Ocean Fusion after 1-2 months later he became ill again, same with “Holistic Select” Salmon it took 3 months he became sick & wouldnt touch his food if ever your dog wont eat a kibble dont make him, take the food back, I keep all my recipts, then I tried the TOTW Pacific Stream Salmon formula which is the Kirkland Nutures Domain Salmon & Sweet Potato formula, he kept vomiting up the TOTW Salmon, then last April CLP released their first ever pet food testing & I was shocked there were 3 of the foods I feed Patch in the top 10 worse pet kibbles all these formula’s tested very high in toxins, now CLP has just relesed their 2nd test 1 week ago join & get their emails click on link below also on your left click on “Brand Report Cards”
Some people say CLP is this & that, all they want is money, yes they need donation to test pet & baby foods that’s how we get it for free.
My dog & other people dogs have been very sick after eating these 4 & 5 star brands that DFA gives & they have tested very high in toxins, when you go & look at these brands up in the DFA “Reviews” section, read all people’s post, my dog is sick, my dog died, my dog has diarrhea, I know some dogs may have health problems but there’s some foods like TOTW’s High Prairie formula where a heap of dogs became very sick all of a sudden after eating the TOTW High Prairie & Pacific Stream formula’s these formula’s both tested very high in toxins in CLP 2nd testing…
I’d rather be safe then sorry & when you have a dog with a sensitive stomach & bowel these’s are the dogs that become very sick first, Purina rated good with some of their formula’s but some of Purina’s formula’s didnt rate good at all, like Purina’s Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach formula it rated 3rd worse formula with the higest amount of Toxins.. there’s more information on different pet foods on Clean Label Project F/B page…
Im staying away from fish pet foods, I buy human tin salmon in spring water give that as a small meal with sweet potato for Patch
http://www.cleanlabelproject.org/pet-food-study-2-0/

[Jaclyn B]

Hi DogFoodAdvisor,

Clean Label Project is a national non-profit with the mission to bring truth and transparency to consumer product labeling. We do this by using data and science to reveal true product quality and purity and empower consumer to make their own choices. Through the resulting shifting economics, we aim to serve as the catalyst to change the definition of food and consumer product safety in America.

Given the humanization of pet food over the past several years coupled with the scandals and recalls, we were especially interested in what was truly behind all these “Feed them like Family”, “Natural”, “Human-grade”, etc. claims. For us, it was about seeing past the comfort and security that pet food brands marketing departments sell, and get right to the data and science about the true ingredient quality. This impartiality only comes through testing. When we began this pet food study, we assumed that these companies were regularly screening for environmental toxins alongside more conventional foodborne contaminants (like salmonella). Our results clearly indicate otherwise. We believe consumers have a right to know what’s in the products they buy.

When we initially started this project, we utilized Nielson reports to pull the products that made up 90% of the overall retail sales of pet foods. From there, we visited specialty pet food stores and spoke with consumers and team members to ask what people were buying. Our approach to the sampling was simple and why Clean Label Project is unique is clear- we simulate the consumer shopping experience. We went to grocery stores, pet food stores, and online retailers and purchased products just like any consumer would. We tested over 1000 of America’s best-selling dry and wet dog foods, cat foods, and treats for over 130 environmental and industrial contaminants and toxins like heavy metals, pesticide residues, antibiotic residues, plasticizers, melamine, acrylamide, and mycotoxins. We amassed over 130,000 data points, benchmarked them, and put the findings on our website in the form of a 5-star rating system. The products that we personally purchased and tested are literally the exact same products that are in pantries across America. For us, we don’t trust label claims, we trust analytical chemistry because gas chromatography and Inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry doesn’t lie.

We agree that sampling error is a risk in any scientific study, and you have correctly pointed out that random sampling of sufficient size is essential to minimizing the risk of sampling error leading to a false positive or false negative result (so-called “Type I” and “Type II” errors). However, there are two important distinctions here that we would like to stress as to why we chose the sampling strategy that we did.

First, at the product level – while you make a valid point that sampling repeatedly from different batches for an individual product would result in a more accurate representation of the “true” contaminant level of a single product this, in our opinion, misses important quality and supplier assurance implications of our results. If these companies, as many of them have repeatedly assured us, are conducting rigorous supplier assurance and quality assurance programs, single “fluke” high values should be exceedingly rare. While sample variability does occur, a robust quality program should severely limit the variability (and the levels of these contaminants). This is particularly important given that there is no maximum tolerance level for these contaminants in the pet food space. As a side note, the argument that “the product is only loaded with known carcinogens occasionally” doesn’t reassure us very much. Consider the analogy of food borne pathogens like salmonella, e.coli, or listeria – certainly there is variability as to how much of these bacteria are present in raw ingredients, but rigorous quality assurance programs or kill steps bring the variability in finished products to almost zero. This is why the presence of these bacteria cause headlines when they occur in finished foods – we have systems in place that should prevent them. This is not the case for the contaminants we measure in the pet food space—but it should be. All brands, regardless of their score, should be vigilant regarding these contaminants and should take proactive steps to improve the status of the industry.

Second, at the brand level: It is important to note that decisions about a brand (for example, the brand report cards released September 18, 2017) are not based off single product ratings, instead they are based on the average performance of multiple products within a brand. When data is aggregated across a group, the “true” value being estimated is that of the brand, not the product. As such, when we give the “thumbs up” or “thumbs down” to a brand, this is based on the weight of evidence from multiple products. This means that our brand ratings, and the conclusions we draw about the performance of brands, are arguably the least likely to be impacted by sampling error.

For us at Clean Label Project, we refer to ourselves as the environmental and industrial contaminant and toxin people. That’s who we are, the mission we hold, and the conversation we are looking to have with consumers. To us, so often we hear about food safety issues happening at burrito restaurants and cruise ships (e.coli, listeria, salmonella, etc.), but what people don’t talk about is the long term adverse health effects associated with chronic exposure to industrial and environmental toxins and contaminants with links to diseases like cancer- for ALL living things. To us, first, it’s do no harm, start with high quality – not harmful ingredients – and then dive into how to formulate the most nutritious foods. This should not be a novel concept.

To us at Clean Label Project, there is no such thing as healthy poison. You can read more information about our position here. http://www.cleanlabelproject.org/white-paper/

[aimee]

Haleycookie.. count my dogs among the unfortunate. We are all shaped by experience. When I was a teen I saw a dog choke to death on a bone…. horrible imprinted memory. A friend used to feed raw, stopped after the dog had peritonitis from intestinal bone perforation. Events like these may be “extreme circumstances” to use your words but I have to say they did not, to use your words “make me laugh”. When you experience it first hand it becomes very personal.

People should be informed of the risks of bone chewing and then decide if they are at peace with those risks. I’m not comfortable with those risks and others are. We can each respect each others decisions.

[anonymous]

Below is an excerpt from http://animaldentalspecialist.com/safe-and-appropriate-chew-toys-for-dogs/
Click on link for full article. Hope this helps.

Fractured pet teeth are one of the more common dental problems encountered by veterinary dentists. Broken teeth, more often than not, have exposed pulp tissues that subsequently become infected.  Just like for humans, apical infection (apical periodontitis, dental “abscesses”) will occur in a matter of time. They are painful and cause exposure of the body to chronic bacteria infusion and inflammation. In most cases, the problem is caused by dogs being allowed to chew on objects that are just too hard for their teeth. These objects may actually be harder than the teeth.  It is important to remember the evolutionary function of carnivores…they are meat eaters. The function of carnivore oral behavior is to grasp, pull and hold prey. This is followed by cutting and tearing meat before crushing and gulping. Carnivore teeth are not designed to chew bones or other objects harder than the teeth.  Starving wild animals often have only bones to eat, however, they also break their teeth, which places them at a survival disadvantage (survival of the fittest). Wild carnivores that do eat bones are usually doing so from freshly killed prey.  Fresh bones are softer, however, they still can lead to traumatized and fracture teeth. Dental treats and chew objects should be considered as only part of preventative dental health care (please refer to information on dental diets, chews and antiseptics).  In conjunction with daily tooth brushing, dental diets and regular professional cleanings, toys and treats can play an important part of oral health care maintenance.
Strictly avoid bones (cooked or uncooked), cow hoofs, pig ears, hard & thick rawhides, plastic or nylon bones, and large ice cubes. Tennis balls and other objects with abrasive surfaces should also be avoided as these have a sandpaper-like effect on tooth structure that damages and may expose the pulp. The flatter, softer rawhide chews have been shown to be safe and effective in reducing the rate of plaque accumulation. C.E.T. Hextra rawhide chews contain Chlorhexidine which enhances their effectiveness.
When trying to select safe chew objects for your pet, there are two good approaches:
General rules of thumb.
Use products approved by the Veterinary Oral Health Council (VOHC)
A. Rules of Thumb
You want to be able to indent the surface with your finger nail.  Surface has some “give” to it.
“Knee Cap Rule”: If you hit your self in the knee with the object and it hurts, it’s probably too hard/heavy for your dog.
“Hammer Rule”: If you can drive a nail with the product, don’t allow your dog to chew on it.
Also avoid objects with abrasive surfaces like Tennis Balls and Frisbees.
If you cannot flex or break the product with your bare hands, it’s probably best to avoid it.
Please take note: you should always monitor your pet when they are chewing on anything.  Verify they’re not gagging, trying to ingest too much at one time or attempting to eat an inedible product.
B. VOHC approved products
Although not all safe products have VOHC approval, using products with the VOHC seal of acceptance is recommended as these products have successfully met pre-set requirements for veterinary dental efficacy and safety.  A complete list of VOHC approved products can be accessed at http://www.vohc.org.

[Susan]

Hi,
why not gve fresh raw meaty bones? they are fresh un cooked bone so no shattering or bone that has been cooked etc, In Australia we have raw or slow air dried Kangaroo tendons, they’re healthy & good to chew…. find a company that makes really good high quality slow air dried bones if you don’t want to feed fresh meaty bones & if there’s any 2 day old bones laying around the yard pick them up & throw them out, if you have local butcher they normally sell cheap off cut meaty bones & know the best part of the carcass to give dogs to chew & keep a pup busy that wont splinter etc, a butcher told me the best bone to give a dog is the elbow section of the Lamb, I don’t know if this is correct or he just likes that bit of bone for his dogs??, ask your local butcher or join a few Raw feeding F/B groups they normally know which meaty bone is best to give, just do not feed any of those rawhide chews made to look like bones…

[haleycookie]

All of those things are such extreme circumstances they make me laugh. Do you know all the things I’ve seen dogs chew on and eat that haven’t hurt them that are far less digestible than a bone? When a responsible dog owner watches their dog and only allows certain amounts of time with a raw bone theyre will rarely be any negative corcumstances. I know way to many dogs that eats raw bones of all kinds of animals on a daily basis that are included in raw diets. Bones are necessary in raw diets especially. Dogs digestive tract, teeth, stomach, and esophagus are still that of a wolf. Wolves eat small bones whole, break them with their teeth, and shatter them to pieces and eat them. I’m not concerned with leaving my dog or any dog UNDER SUPERVISION with a raw bone. And neither should anyone else.

[haleycookie]

RAW bones such as the frozen primal bones sold at petvalus are safe but there are always risks with anything. Just always make sure with ANYTHING you give your dog you are watching them while they chew on it. I often get ppl that ask me “what is something I can leave with my dog to chew on?” The answer is nothing. Don’t leave your dog to chew on anything alone. Which you did not do and I’d imagine you’re smart enough to know that. Great that you taught your dog drop it too. I also wouldn’t recommend a rotted bleached bone off of a mystery carcass. Go to a petvalu if you have one near and pick up one of the raw primal bones or I believe they can be ordered online. I have used those with several different dog sitting dogs and they all love them. Don’t be scared of bones, I find they are a great way to clean the teeth of tartar. I also toss raw bones within 24 hrs of opening. And if I ever purchase those filled bones or meaty bones from petco I toss those once the dog has pulled out the center filling or pulled off all the meaty bits from the bone.

[Coonhound Mama]

Oh no, I absolutely would not do that again. Aside from the fact that that bone has been sitting there long enough to harbor some very serious bacteria, a sun bleached bone is not edible. Sun has the same effect on bones that cooking them does- it breaks them down into dry and flaky shards that could potentially cause cuts in the GI tract. Stick to fresh, raw rib bones only.

[Kathy B]

I found this post while researching food to help my dogs’ fur healthy. I feed my pets raw. One of the more difficult aspects of raw is making sure your pet gets enough keratin in their diet. Believe it or not the best source is hair and feathers. What you really need to be asking Acana is what percentage of their food has hair/feathers. When our dogs on the farm ate gophers or mice they also ingested the hair. Keratin is a form of protein that is both needed and digestible. I know it sounds disgusting to us as humans, but in the right proportions is both safe and healthy.

[pugmomsandy]

If you look through the 5 star foods, there should be other low carb options. For instance, Wysong Epigen, Solid Gold Barking at the Moon, Earthborn Holistic Great Plains Feast, Wellness Core (some recipes), Nature’s Variety Instinct (some recipes), Stella and Chewy’s Raw Blend (dry food), Farmina N&D Grain Free, Weruva Caloric Harmony.

Kibble is a bakery product and needs starch to keep its shape. Canned foods can be lower in carbs since they don’t require a starchy binder and they’re probably not as expensive as raw foods.

[Mike Sagman]

Batch analysis ratings posted by CleanLabelProject.org and other similar websites can certainly be helpful.

However, we recommend readers exercise a reasonable degree of caution when relying exclusively on these kinds of reports.

That’s because when testing any pet (or human) food, the results can differ from day to day and vary significantly based on the specific farm or batch used as a source for any individual ingredient.

As with any laboratory study, it is absolutely critical to take a statistically significant (large) number of test samples from multiple batches to avoid a potentially misleading variable known as sampling error. You can read about that important subject here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_error

In addition, guidelines used for interpreting the results can also be changed or manipulated. This can cause certain products to be move from one rating to another. And even from “best” to “worst” lists. This has apparently already been a problem. You can read about that issue here:

Here’s Why The Clean Label Project’s Best and Worst Pet Food Results Changed

Giving any one brand a sweeping endorsement (or rejection) based on the sampling of one single batch taken from one individual product line at one point in time could be misleading and provide a false sense of security (or concern) regarding positive test results.

Even with fresh human foods (like strawberries or beef), there can be significant differences associated with test results from one batch of raw materials to the next, many times related to the soil conditions of one plot of land versus another from the same region.

What’s more, conclusions drawn from single batch testing can produce important inconsistencies. For example, on the website you reference, when you use the search box for specific brands (like Nutro, Orijen, Purina, and others), you’ll find 5-star, 3-star and 1-star individual recipes (products).

Try doing the same thing for other brands (like Nature’s Variety or Canidae) and in many cases, you’ll get similar results.

It would seem to us that the fairest way to draw accurate conclusions regarding food testing would be to collect test samples from multiple batches from different lots and collected over an extended period of time.

Otherwise, we could unfairly judge the safety of one food and give a misleading thumbs up for another.

Bottom line?

We commend CLP for its efforts. And we look forward to learning more about how its findings compare with those of others… especially to test results verified by independent third parties, peer-reviewed studies and those of the companies themselves.

Yet we’re also concerned about CLP’s lack of complete transparency and its failure to share actual test results with the public on its website.

In any case, until each batch is tested by every company with results posted on every label…

And since there’s no way of knowing which “top-rated” recipes could unexpectedly contain hidden contaminants and become the low-rated brands of tomorrow…

We continue to urge pet owners to practice the commonsense risk reduction strategies associated with the menu diversification and diet rotation methods favored by this website.

Until CLP becomes more transparent with its test data and its controversial claims have been verified by an independent third party or by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, we ask readers to refrain from posting any further references to this organization or its opinions anywhere on this website.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by Mike Sagman.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 2 months ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: "Bottom line" section added to conclusion of comment

[Lori J]

I just bought a bag a the Zignature Lamb to try out but still not happy w peas in there. Would Something like Orijen, Acana or Wellness core be better? I wouldnt mind making home cooked meals for my 2 if it is easy. I dont think I can do raw.

[Jeremy H]

I currently feed Orijen, which is low carb but also gives my dogs loose stools. I have been mixing it about 50/50 with Zignature which has helped firm things up. The only “low” carb kibble that I have noticed after scouring the reviews is Orijen. Am I missing something? Is the only other low carb option raw?