[Lisa T]

Hi all,

I have an 8-month old puppy who weighs about 16.5 lbs. We have had him for 6 months, and this is my first puppy…so please be patient with me 🙂

About a month and a half ago, Milo had diarrhea. After 2 days, I took him to the vet. The vet gave him Flagyl, and told me to feed him boiled chicken and steamed rice, perhaps with a little canned pumpkin mixed in. This firmed up the stool so that it was “soft” rather than true diarrhea. The fecal test came back negative.

We continued the diet as suggested. Then it seemed like there was a day and a half where he would strain/squat, but nothing came out. We went back to the vet, and this time, they gave us an antibiotic, and also a probiotic (both a paste and capsules). We finished those, and the stools seem to firm up a bit…but as soon as we add even a little bit of kibble in (originally Diamond Naturals Chicken & Rice, then Stella & Chewy Raw Coated, then and now TOTW that doesn’t have chicken in it)…it goes back to soft serve ice cream consistency.

Milo is a happy camper. He does not seem sick at all. He still only poops 2-3 times per day, and never has accidents.

I am worried that so many weeks on chicken and rice is not good for him. The vet has now suggested I bring him in for an expensive malabsorption blood panel.

Could it be a chicken allergy?
Could it be the flea medication he took a couple of days before this all started?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you!

[Patricia A]

LOL Anon. Just can’t win. My dogs were on Fromm for years and did great. I switched to Stella and Chewy’s because I thought the hype about it being BAKED and less processed of course would be healthier .I don’t know but my three love the kibble. It’s also a smaller bag and now that I use very little as a base to freeze dried it stays fresher. But now I look at the ingredients on their small breed red meat and peas are their third ingredient. On their f/b page this is their reply to all the concerns regarding this: “we are aware of the FDA release dated July 12 regarding a potential association between reports of canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs, and certain pet foods containing peas, lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes as main ingredients. We have no indication that any of our products are involved in FDA’s investigation. We work closely with veterinarians and nutritionists to ensure that our diets are complete and balanced and meet AAFCO requirements. Please know that our freeze-dried raw and frozen raw diets are free of peas, lentils and potatoes, and contain less than 1% of the legume seed fenugreek. Also, we do add taurine to our raw and kibble diets. We continue to be confident in the safety and nutritional quality of all of our diets. We appreciate the work that FDA does on behalf of pet parents, and will monitor this investigation as it unfolds.” Stupid response when the problem possibly IS regarding legumes. lol
I do like the ingredients of that Fromm recipe though. Like I said I only use it as a very little base to the freeze dried. I think will switch it up again with the Fromm that doesn’t have all the peas regardless of the beet pulp. Thank’s for sharing that.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Patricia A.

[Susan]

Hi
I think people are confusing these health problems caused by Legumes with Potatoes aswell…
Earlier this month, the Food and Drug Administration announced that it is investigating a link between these newer Exotic protein, high Legume Grain Free diets with a common type of canine heart disease, DCM.
FDA also mentioned Potatoes awell but I think Potatoes were only mentioned cause these newer grain free kibbles have Peas, Chickpeas & Potatoes, or they’ll have Peas, Green Lentils, Red lentils & Sweet Potatoes….
So Potatoes were mentioned on the FDA report??…
“Guilit by association”
I have seen NO proof that it’s potatoes blocking taurine & causing heart problems in dogs?
If anyone has any proof that potatoes are blocking taurine causing deficiency of Amino Acid Taurine in Dogs.
Please post this proof..

When G/F kibbles first came out years ago they all had Potatoes & Sweet Potatoes & there were NO health problems in dogs..
There’s kibbles that have healthy grains & potatoes, these kibbles have caused no health problems, these health problems happened since these newer G/F kibbles were very high in Legumes…
Types of Legumes
Chickpeas.
Beans.
Peas.
Lentils.
Lupins.

Royal Canine & Hills make vet formula’s that contain Potatoes but they do not have any vet diets containing Legumes..???

Potatoes are not related to Legumes.
Legumes are the fruit or pod of the botanical family Leguminosae. The potato tuber (Solanaceae family) is actually the greatly enlarged tip of the underground stem of the potato.
Potatoes are a Tublr plant with notable tuberous roots include sweet potato, cassava….

If you’re looking for a new kibble look for kibbles that have Sweet potatoes, Rice, Oats, Potatoes, Blueberries, Butternut Squash, Pumkin, healthy grains etc as long as your dog doesn’t have any food sensitivitives to certain grains & ingredients…
Make sure there’s no more then 20% legumes (peas) in the dry kibble, if the kibble has peas just make sure the peas are further down the ingredient list, 5th 6th 7th ingredient & peas are NOT 1st 2nd 3rd or 4th ingredient…

Here’s a kibble ingredient list that I’d avoid, this formula is very high in Legumes….

“Kangaroo, Kangaroo Meal, Peas, Chickpeas, Pea Flour, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Citric Acid), Flaxseed, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Pea Protein, Natural Flavors, Salt,”

*There’s Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Chickpeas & Peas, all these Legume ingredients make the protein % higher with Plant Proteins, Kangaroo is expensive so there’s more plant proteins, then meat proteins also look at ingredient spliting with peas? peas are 3rd ingredients, then again Pea Flour is 5th ingredient, then pea protein is 11th ingredient, if they didn’t split the peas up then the peas would probably have been 1st or 2nd ingredient…

also rotate your kibbles with different brands, so your dog has variety in his diet, if 1 brand of kibble does have something wrong with it, your dog isnt eating this brand long enough to cause any health problems cause your rotating his diet….

Look at Freeze Dried raw aswell, there’s some good freeze dried dog foods, the freeze dried ingredients are not cooked at very high temperatures like kibble is made so the nutrients stays in the ingredients….

“Ingredient spliting” is a trick these Pet Food Companies do, they split the peas up, in the ingredient list, pea flour, pea protein, pea fiber, when you see these ingredient avoid these dog foods as they are full of peas, the peas are really the 1st ingredient but cause they have split the peas into pea flour, pea protein, pea fiber, then the peas move further down the ingredient list but really the peas are 1st ingredient & your meat protein is probably 3rd ingredient….
Ingredient list are written when ingredients are raw, not cooked, these pet food companies know all the tricks & cons so we buy their foods, we just have to be smarter then them & learn how to read an ingredient list..

Please post kibble brands & their formula’s that are legume free or 20% or less in legumes, to help people that dont know what to feed till we get more answers..
Please no nasty posts…

[Eve M]

After consideration, I’m going back to Orijen although the contaminant numbers are high. I will supplement it with Primal frozen raw and hope the mixture isn’t too much of either. There are no lentils or peas in Orijen.

I agree with you Carol. It seems like someone could tweak the recipe and leave out tapioca, peas, lentils and potatoes.

Quinoa? Brown rice? Are these grains on par with lentils?

Eve

[Lisa G]

YES! I started transitioning my dogs & sons dog & a family members dog(his dog was living with us for about 8mos) from RR chicken kibble & they all had issues. I did it slowly as we should but didnt matter. I believe its whatevers in it or what they took out, who knows. My family members dog Ranger got HORRIBLY sick off of it & did a google search myself- its not uncommon for dogs to have this reaction to RR gain free kibble & many dogs just dont tolerate grain free. My opinion based on experiences is unless your pet has an allergy to grains, a grain free diet isnt good for them.My dogs, sons dog, Ranger & even my cat have had reactionary issues with grain free foods.As soon as I realized they were alll getting diarrhea, nausea , some vomitingl, ethargic I took them off it and put them on striclty RR chicken kibble, as they were. Within a 1/2 day to a day they were all getting better.They recovered fairly quickly. It took Ranger a few days to recover(he had it the worse because hes a bigger dog so maybe because he had the most??? I dont recall the ingredients but I will never feed any of my pets grain free, especially RRs. I did write to the company & after a long drawn out exchange of emails they sent me a coupon to replace the bag as we didnt use very much. It wasnt cool how they treated me but in the end they did give me a coupon to replace the bag & my dogs enjoy RR so Ive stuck it out lol

[pitlove]

Lauren-

You are very welcome. Right now I feed Victor dry food. A lot of people seem to be using that food lately, even people that feed raw and kibble together. Might be a good option for you. A girl I follow on Insta gram who shows her pit bull uses the teal bag of Victor and mixes raw meat from the grocery with it. I would however stay away from the grain free line until the FDA can figure out what is going on with the DCM issue and grain free foods.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Lauren H:
For most of my dog’s life (7+ years old) the main part of his diet has been kibble w/ toppers and some home cooked meals a few times a week. I use commercial raw for some of his toppers with no issues and he loves it. I feed some kibble recipes from Pro Plan, Fromm, Exclusive, Purina One, Wellness, and Annamaet.

[Lauren H]

Pitlove,

That’s great to hear, thank you. I’m leaning towards a mix of raw and kibble just to make sure that they’re getting all of the nutrients needed in their diet. This is what my vet recommended and feels like the best choice for me and my family. My vet recommended Wysong adult dog food. Does anyone have a favorite kibble that they like to mix with raw? I’d imagine most raw feeders are strict and only feed raw but would be curious if anyone here mixes the two.

Pitlove, thanks again!

[pitlove]

Lauren-

The girl that runs The Raw Feeding Community has stated that research has shown that feeding raw and kibble together is not a problem.

[Lauren H]

Forgot to add that my labs breath doesn’t smell anymore and his tartar almost completely disappeared after only a couple weeks of raw feeding. He stopping drinking a ton of water and consumes a normal amount now. My shiba is actually excited for meal time now and finishes his food, unlike before it was a total battle to get him to try to eat. He was rather skinny but now my vet says that he is a perfect weight.

[Lauren H]

Thank you so much for all the replies!! Great to get others opinion and experience. I still go back and forth on feeding raw but have seen so many improvements with all three of my dogs in doing so. I’m receptive to veterinary ‘science’, but I also understand that there is a lot of influence and funding coming from these commercial foods as well. Also, most vets have very minimal training in nutrition. My vet is actually an advocate for raw, just wants it to be from a well known and trusted raw dog food company, but even he said that he’s no nutritionist. Sounds like maybe I just need to bite the bullet and pay for quality raw to be safe.

acroyali- thank you for taking such time to write such a detailed response. I was ordering from hare-today but after their shipping prices increased for the summer, I stopped buying from them. I started ordering from raising-rabbits.com instead. Have you or anyone else heard about them or their quality?

Like I said earlier, I’ve seen huge benefits to feeding raw. In my lab mix with Addison’s, before raw, he was drinking a ton of water and I mean a ton! He had horrible breath and he had a lot of tartar on his teeth. My shiba mix would eat about 2 meals worth of kibble and then quit eating eating it either because he was bored or just didn’t like the taste, no matter the brand, protein, etc- we tried it all. My shiba seems to be less anxious too. Our 5 month old puppy was the first dog that we started on raw from 8 weeks raw, she’s done great on raw. No bouts of diarrhea, never gotten sick, and has been a dream to house train.

My vet said that I could mix kibble with the raw to help with the costs. I’ve read a lot of conflicting information on this, any thoughts? I’m certainly open to switching back to kibble but would be hard pressed to go all the way back since my dogs are clearly doing so much better on raw. There isn’t a whole lot of scientific proof on raw feeding but who’s funding these other ones saying that raw is harmful for dogs? Just to be safe though, I think I will stop feeding them grocery store meat and stick with the ones I can buy at a pet store. I’ll check out mypetcarnivore as well. How much veggies do you all like to add?

Sorry this ended up being so long but again, I greatly appreciate your time and responses.

[Patricia A]

I feed Stella’s raw coated and also not happy about peas already starting with their 3rd ingredient. My three are used to kibble as a base and I’ve been giving less and less and substituting calories with freeze dried proteins. Can’t really win with kibble or canned since most grain free has peas, legumes etc starting at latest 4th ingredient. If not grain free it’s then full of potatoes and lentils as 3rd ingredients. If it’s not that it’s worrisome things like Carrageenan being added. One day they’ll all get it right.

[Eve M]

Honestly, I am concerned. I try not to overreact to this constant barrage of new info regarding dog food ingredients, but I’m bothered.

I emailed Stella & Chewy’s about the RAW BLEND – red meat, freeze-dried, baked kibble with freeze-dried raw. Peas are the 3rd ingredient and lentils are 4th. Below is what looks like an automated email response which did nothing to instill confidence.

ALSO, to pile on… if you go to Clean Label Project, foods like ORIJEN get 1 star for contaminants which I’m sure relates to the inclusion of fish. Don’t think Orijen includes peas or lentils.

“I and LOVE and YOU, Lamb and Bison” scored low on CLEAN LABEL PROJECT’s contaminants and high on ingredient quality. Lovely, until I actually read the ingredients… 4th peas and 5th lentils.

All of this feels like literally, PICK YOUR POISON. For some reason, clean label project is being scrubbed by dog food advisor. HMM.

Good luck everyone.

Evelyn

STELLA & Chewy’s email….
Thank you for your email. We are aware of the FDA release dated July 12 regarding a potential association between reports of canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs, and certain pet foods containing peas, lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes as main ingredients. We have no indication that any of our products are involved in FDA’s investigation. We work closely with veterinarians and nutritionists to ensure that our diets are complete and balanced and meet AAFCO requirements. Please know that our freeze-dried raw and frozen raw diets are free of peas, lentils and potatoes, and contain less than 1% of the legume seed fenugreek. Also, we do add taurine to our raw and kibble diets. We continue to be confident in the safety and nutritional quality of all of our diets. We appreciate the work that FDA does on behalf of pet parents, and will monitor this investigation as it unfolds.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Eve M.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Eve M.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Eve M.

[pitlove]

I definitely agree with Acroyali. Quality of the meat is going to matter a lot if you plan to continue to feed raw. I think that is part of what your vet was concerned about.

If you were to do a commercially prepared raw brand, I’d go with Nature’s Variety personally. Or if you want to use a food service like We Feed Raw to continue feeding PMR that would be a good idea as well.

[Acroyali]

I have no idea on your location but I would personally skip supermarket meat and go to a dog food co-op or find a farmer or butcher you trust with all your heart if you want to keep feeding raw.
Go to a local big box store or grocer that often has meat on sale, take note of the return area, and you’ll probably see meat left in carts in un-refrigerated conditions.
If your dog is having health problems, food quality matters. Most grocers handle meat meant for human consumption as just that–meat that will be cooked to a safe temp.
Most healthy dogs can handle meat that wasn’t stored very well. But with Addisons, I’d be extra careful in making sure this meat was frozen immediately and kept that way until you thaw it in your own kitchen.
If you’re worried, look into cooked diets. At least until she’s what you’d consider stable.
Balance it has a great site for this. Dog aware does too, with guidelines for preparing a cooked diet.
If you’re 100% stuck on raw…(and I say this as a raw feeder myself!!!)..
Find a co op or a distributor. My Pet Carnivore, Hare Today, and We feed Raw (google search) are all apparently good companies with good track records for quality foods with good handling. MyPetCarnivore delivers to parts of the USA, Hare today and We feed Raw offers delivery and the shipping chargers may be more than expected (insulated boxes aren’t free) but it might be a good potential solution to look into.
Another option is seeking out training or kennel clubs and asking the people there is anyone feeds raw and where they get their food. Conformation and sport people are usually looking for an edge, and can direct you to a local co-op, a good company like Hare Today etc., or a reputable butcher shop.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Acroyali.

[Lauren H]

Hello,

My dog, Tarzan, a 6 yr old 75 lbs lab mix was just diagnosed with Addison’s disease last week. I had been noticing signs of a decline in energy and overall health with him for the past year. I switched to raw 6 months ago hoping that would help. He did improve for awhile but he later declined in overall health and energy after a few months. Luckily we found the cause and he is acting like a puppy again! So happy to have my boy back.

I’d like to continue to feed him raw as I believe it does a better job keeping him properly hydrated and feel like it is the healthiest diet for him. My vet believes in a raw food diet but he thinks the food should come from a trusted dog food company that has been specifically processed for dogs to eat raw. Previously, I’ve been feeding my dogs based off of the prey model and adding about a tbsp of veggies to their meals. Sometimes, I’d even feed Tarzan whole rabbits, fur and all, which he happily ate, no problem. My vet doesn’t think this is a good idea to buy whole rabbits or to buy my food from a grocery store even though I buy high quality, organic, grass fed or pature raised meat. He’s worried that since my dog has a weakened immune system that his body might not be able to handful the potentially harmful bacteria that resides on grocery store raw meat.

I’m really not sure what to think. I want to do the best thing for my boy but there is so much conflicting information out there. Does anyone have experience feeding raw to a dog with Addison’s? Do you worry about their immune systems not being able to process all the bacteria that an average dog would have no problem with? How much veggies do you like to add?

Currently I’m buying either vital essentials or small batch prey model patties or chub and adding Sojos premix, about 2-3 tbsp per meal. He also gets turmeric, green mussel and fish oil each meal as well. This has become quite expensive and I’m not sure how long my husband will allow this to carry on….I could be spending half the amount I am now if I could go back to feeding him the whole rabbits, grocery store meat and fish.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Kelley H]

Hi, my name is Kelley and I am new to the forum. I work for CountryPet Naturals, and this post was recently brought to my attention by one of our customers. I would like to clarify some of the points mentioned above as they are not an accurate representation of our pasteurized frozen dog and cat food rolls. I see the original post has three main concerns, so I will address each of them below.

1. Our website and product packaging accurately list all ingredients that go into the food as required by the FDA. Our food contains muscle meat (including heart), offals (organs such as lung, liver and kidney), small amounts of ingredients to bind the meat together (such as pea fiber, tapioca starch, vegetable oil), and vitamins & minerals which are required by the AAFCO to ensure a complete and balanced food for dogs and cats of all life stages. The minimum meat content in any of these recipes is 92%.

The protein and fat contents vary slightly depending on the recipe, but we are required to publish the minimum levels of protein and fat that may be found in our food. As a small family-owned company, we are conservative with our minimum values, with lab testing consistently showing levels higher than we publish. If we look at the dry-matter basis of our Lamb Recipe Dog Food, for example, the protein comes out to a minimum of 38%, fat is a minimum of 34%, fiber a maximum of 3%, and ash a maximum of 16%. The remainder is known as Nitrogen Free Extract (or carbohydrates), which comes out approximately 9%. In reality, the protein and fat content is higher than what we state on the packaging, and the ash and carbohydrates are lower, but we always stay on the conservative side and have never in our history had to recall a product from the market.

2. To the best of my knowledge, our food has never contained Menadione and is certainly not an ingredient included in any of our recipes. All ingredients are posted on our website and printed on the product packaging.

3. None of our foods are raw, and we do not advertise the product as raw. However, some of our customers mistake the product for raw due to the high meat content and texture. Instead of offering a completely raw diet, our Naturally New Zealand line is pasteurized to help keep our customers’ pets and family safe. Raw meat can carry dangerous bacteria such as Salmonella and E. coli, which cause food-borne illness. Again, we choose to do this to avoid recalls, the likes of which have plagued companies that do offer raw diets.

Overall, the ingredients that go into our pet food are 92%-plus sourced from human-grade animal products, and those animals are pasture-raised in New Zealand and free of hormones, antibiotics and grain diets. Our goal is to provide a safe, high-quality product that we can be proud of, and I strongly believe we have accomplished that goal with this dog and cat food. Here’s a link to product reviews posted to our website by happy pet parents.

Please let me know if there are any questions and I’ll be happy to provide answers.

Thank you,
Kelley

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Kelley H.

[lynette w]

I would like to know who funded the article. UC Davis has done studies in the past that turned out to be inaccurate (feeding raw) and they frequently have Science Diet, Royal Canin and Purina products in their pictures. It seems like with cat food issues years ago why advise against grainfree and simply add taurine? Makes me wonder if certain companies want to stop the hype of healthy food.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by lynette w.

[William D]

I feed my ladies the raw dog diet

______________________________________________________________
There are no solved problems; there are only problems that are more or less solved.
All the best,William [url=https://diceus.com/]Diceus[/url]

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by William D.

[Di F]

Hey. Thanks everyone for all the suggestions/tips.
Tried raw (he hated it) then tried the suggestion to
Put a scrambled egg in his quality kibble. Once I added a little shredded mozzarella we made baby steps.

[Susan]

Hi Di F,
sounds like he was feed a cooked diet, you might have to cook for him, feed him what you eat as long as it has no onions, no ingredients dogs can’t eat..
join face book groups, like Monica Segals group called “K-9 Kitchen”
Lew Olson f/b group called “K-9 Nutrition”

*Judy Morgan DVM here’s her Pup loaf very easy to make & is balanced.

*Here’s Dr Judy Morgans face book page. ‘Like’ & follow her, there’s lots of good information..
https://www.facebook.com/JudyMorganDVM/

He’ll be healthier eating cooked diet instead of dry or wet dog food.. He’s a Smart dog & can tell the difference from a fresh cooked meal & processed meal…

You could look at at Freeze Dried raw & Air Dried raw..send “Ziwi Peak” email & explain what is happening & ask for some samples of their air dried formula’s, make sure you include your address & ph nb..
“Ziwi Peak” – https://www.ziwipets.com/catalog/ziwi-peak-dog-nutrition
Do the same with “Kiwi Kitchen” – http://www.kiwikitchens.nz/dog-food/freeze-dried-dog-food/

[Spy Car]

Feed him a Prey Model Raw diet. He will love it and be much healthier as a result.

A dog who refuses to eat so-called “dog food” is a smart dog. Dogs were not shaped by evolution to eat a cereal-based diet.

Bill

[aimee]

Hi Noelani H.
Thanks so much for posting. It helps me to know that people are finding the posted information valuable. It is easy for me to get discouraged when those profiting off of this product close their eyes to science. I naively thought that the anti rawhide boutique stores selling these would be concerned with the findings of a consumer tested product sent to a forensic lab but they are not. Hope you have better luck at the place you purchased your No Hide from. At a minimum be sure to ask for your money back as the company guarantees 100% satisfaction. Speaking of 100%… a huge brand new display of “No Hide” went up in my local store with a huge sign above it declaring the product is 100% digestible. Earth Animal hasn’t done any digestibility studies in dogs and the digestibility models studies they have done reported variable average digestibility some as low as 56%.

[Acroyali]

@Kathleen Q,
We have the old version of Lew’s book. “Raw and natural nutrition.”
Despite what others here say, a good diet is not homeopathic nor anything close to it. This poster does not understand what homeopathic medicine is. It has nothing to do with diet.
If they would take 15 minutes to educate themselves, they’d see that but sadly they won’t.
Lew has a blog that might be helpful at b naturals dot com. Search “heart healthy”.
Our guy lived for years past the vets expectations with the help of this person, despite their “homeopathic” (LOL) ways 😉
This is not a raw friendly site unfortunately. If you’re after help in raw feeding, this is not the site to visit. Sad that the support that existed 5 years ago has disappeared.

[Colleen O]

We have just discovered that our dog has Cushing’s disease and have begun feeding her raw food to help with her liver. The vet is going to put her on meds which is fine but also mentioned Hill’s LD, which doesn’t have a good review.

Any thoughts on prescription food vs. the raw we have her on now? She is eating it as a formula with fruit and grains mixed in, and supplementing with omega oil and a kelp blend.

[Patricia A]

Thank you Lee. Also from NY here. I have the opposite problem with my picky one who ONLY wants to eat kibble topped with home made food such as boiled chicken, salmon, steak etc which I don’t always have available. On days when she only gets the kibble topped with freeze dried she holds out eating so I feed her later. She realizes she better start eating because kitchen is closing for the day.lol And it’s NOT the taste of the food because I’ve been through so many different canned foods and all the different proteins of the stellas and Primal that I could open up my own Pet Supply store. Even tried human grade Stella chewys new stews which again she turned her nose up too.
I actually bought Rawabble Beef thinking it might be better for my eight year old Chihuahua who loves all food but is a little chubby. It was right next to the Primal and Stellas.But then took it back same day because didn’t read enough people on this board feeding it and thought I better stick to a the Primal and Stella’s until I get more feedback that it’s a good quality freeze dried.
Running out of the Primal turkey/Sardine so will pick up a bag of the Rawablle beef which shows AVERAGE fat. I could never feed the beef with either Primal or Stella’s because of the high fat with that recipe. Maybe my picky one will even love the beef .Thank’s again for your feedback on this food.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Lee R]

I feed my four year old mini schnauzer Rawbble (all three products – beef, chicken, salmon and chicken). He is a finicky eater, often declining home made foods like hamburger (lean), chicken and fish.

He almost NEVER turns away from Rawbble. The ingredients are excellent and I serve it to him in a bowl mixed with water (after about six minutes). He also likes it as a treat in its native freeze dried form.

I highly recommend this product but find that it’s hard to locate a reliable distributor. I have been ordering it lately directly from Bixbi (I pay extra for two day delivery because I am in NY and they are in Colorado). I can’t seem to find a retailer in my area that carries it.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Lee R.

[Jeannie F]

How palatable is the sojos? I have a very finicky dachshund who doesn’t like honest kitchen in any flavor.
He loves raw pork and beef but has trouble digesting it as he gets gurgly tummy on occasion after eating that, chicken necks and organ meat.
Thanks for your help.

[Annette E]

Holy Cow! No wonder no one can afford to feed this to their dog! I just saw this bag of food, and loved the ingredients. I found this forum in checking out the price, and see that some are looking for a more affordable raw dehydrated food. I have been feeding my dogs Sojos for years. Everytime I get bloodwork done on them, I am told that the numbers are what they see in maybe 1 in 10 dogs, so my dogs are VERY HEALTHY. It is also a hydrating food, in that you mix it with water and leave it for at least 30 minutes. (it looks and smells like soup base!) I then add a little of my own meat to each meal, to make sure they are getting enough and it makes it even more affordable to feed this way. I buy mostly pork and what ever is on sale or organ meats. An 8 pound bag of SOJOS, which makes 48 pounds of hydrated food, will cost you around $80, so 7 times more food for $20 more. Sign up with Chewy.com or some of the others and you can it it for 15% off every order with autoship. Feeding your dog this way is more expensive, but it doesn’t have to be that expensive! I just figure they are here for a short time, spoil them and try to make them live forever! Hope this helps some of you, since I didn’t see Sojos mentioned above.

[William S]

We have small mix breed and she had episodes about 1-2 times per week and found the raw food diet now we only feed high fat raw with freeze dried raw liver as treats it has been very successful she has episodes maybe once every couple months and when she does they are very mild relative to before ( her diet is mostly beef with 1 raw frozen chicken wing per week it with 80-90% calories coming from fat )

[Acroyali]

The book from Lew Olson has heart healthy recipes in it, cooked or raw, that focus on taurine and CoQ10, very important for heart health.
Is your pom on any medications at this time?
B-naturals dot com.
Lew was very helpful to us when we had a dog with heart disease.

[Cathy B]

Hi Lori, here is a recipe from Dr. Judy Morgan’s book on a heart healthy diet.
1lb beef cubed or ground
1lb beef heart cubed or ground
3oz beef liver cubed or ground
2 eggs without shell
4oz carrot grated or processed
2oz kale finely chopped or processed
1TBS fresh ginger root grated or processed
Add 2 (canned) sardines at time of feeding

This diet can ground and mixed together, baked at 325 for 30-45 min in a loaf or square baking dish, cooked on low 4-6 hours in a slow cooker, or fed raw.

Good treats for dogs with heart disease include pieces of freeze dried heart, green tripe, or liver, carrots, hard boiled eggs and baked kale chips.

Raw goat milk is high in Taurine and makes a great addition.

Add 1/2 tsp finely ground egg shell to every pound of meat

Her wed site has LOTS of info on how to treat and keep your pets healthy.

Her new book has a lot of info on heart disease and recipes

[Patricia A]

Pitlove my picky one won’t touch actual raw. I’m shopping and cooking for my elderly parents and I need the convenience of the bags of freeze dried . My 16 year old is hungry earlier. My eight year old will eat all day if I let her and my three year old will only pick if she’s not fed early evening. The younger two are the only ones that gets the freeze dried so it’s affordable for me. These are the ingredients in the Turkey/Primal :Turkey, Turkey Necks, Whole Sardines, Turkey Hearts, Turkey Livers, Organic Collard Greens, Organic Squash, Cranberries, Blueberries, Organic Pumpkin Seeds, Organic Celery, Organic Sunflower Seeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Cilantro, Organic Ginger, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Quinoa Sprout Powder, Alfalfa,Dried Organic Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols (natural preservative).
Is Stella’s better with the salmon/Cod recipe? Ground salmon with bones, ground cod with bones, cod liver oil, pumpkin seed, organic cranberries, organic spinach, organic broccoli, organic beets, organic carrots, organic squash, organic blueberries, fenugreek seed, potassium chloride, tocopherols (preservative), sodium phosphate, choline chloride, dried Pediococcus acidilactici fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried Bacillus coagulans fermentation product, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, taurine, calcium carbonate, vitamin E supplement, thiamine mononitrate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid.
Appreciate any feedback in a better raw.

[haleycookie]

I second the where’s the bone question.
Also heart is considered a muscle meat when feeding raw. Not an excretory organ like the kidneys. So I would add the heart into the over all ground beef mixture. Not the 5% excretory organs. Your ratios should be 80% muscle meat/fat (including heart), 10% bone (soft pliable bones such as turkey necks, chicken feet), 5% liver, 5% excretory organs (kidneys, lungs).
You could also do this 70% muscle/fat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% excretory, 7% veggies, 3% fruit.

[Phyllis L]

I started feeding my32 pound dog raw 2 weeks ago, ground beef mixed with 5% liver, 5%heart and kidney mixed. I have been feeding him 4 ounces am and pm and he loves the food. I notice that if he drinks too much water after he eats that he vomits it up about an hour later. I have been giving him just a little bit of water to drink after he eats and he only spits it up a little bit but not much. Should I mix some water in with the food? Maybe his stomach is still getting use to the raw food?

[pitlove]

Patricia-

Will they eat actual raw instead of freeze dried raw? You could probably save some money buying cuts of meat at the grocery store. Primal is so expensive and full of random veggies that don’t really make much of a difference for the dog.

[Patricia A]

Thank you Bill for the info and reassurance to stick with the raw. I have a base of Stella Chewy’s Kibble but it a VERY small portion of their diet. I rotate with Primal duck, rabbit, turkey Sardine and venison. They only like rehydrated freeze dried. Stella’s I only give the chicken and salmon cod. They also get a little egg in morning. When we have steak or salmon they get lucky and have that as a topper. I have three chihuahuas’. One being 16 who is still very spunky. She took a liking to the Stella’s kibble small breed. I switched from Fromm because I thought it was a better kibble. So it’s great to have all three on the same one.As said it’s only used as less then 1/8 cup . The 16 year old will not eat any of the raw. She lovers a topper of wellness core chicken/broccoli only. I just hate the carrageenan in it but at 16 I’m glad she eats enthusiastically. Trying hard to get my slightly chubby eight year old to lose some weight. She gets a lot of exercise and eliminated the origen treat for her. Cut down on everything but still not losing. Primal shows lower then average carbs as well as Stella’s.. I have yet to find a freeze dried that has NO carbs. Suggestions appreciated.
Crazy4cats I think your’e right. I’m thinking of all the crappy dog foods sold at supermarkets that have very little meat and this taurine deficiency was not a problem. Hope we find out the link soon. Until then legumes, potatoes, pea protein etc. should be far down the list of ingredients just in case.

[Susan]

Hi Blkdoodle,

Buy tin sardines in spring water/olive oil from supermarket, check that the salt % isn’t too high, (compare with all the different sardine brands) drain out all the spring water/olive oil, put the tin sardines in a air tight glass container put in fridge, then add 1-2 spoons sardines a day to 1 of your girl meals & the Sardines will balance her diet with EPA,DHA, Vitamin, minerals, calcium, taurine etc…
I’ve been posting Steven Browns recommendations for years now, add 1-2 spoons of sardines to 1 of your dog daily meals…
Steve Brown posted for kibble feeders who were worried the Omega oils had gone rancid in kibble after it had been opened.
Steve posted
Add to 1 kibble meal a day 2 spoons of Sardines in spring water or Olive Oil, for raw feeders also add 1-2 mussels & a pinch of kelp…
for a 40lb dog add 1/4 can of sardines 1 serving a day.

Sardines contain some of the highest concentrations of EPA and DHA omega-3s of all fish, making them an excellent dietary addition, and they also contain taurine and vitamin E, another potent antioxidant.

[Spy Car]

@Patricia A, the article is misinformed. You want a raw diet with high fat and protein, No carbs. No plant products. 10% edible bone, 10% organs.

Calories from fat should be in the 50-60% range *remembering fat has 2.25 times the calories per gram than protein (or carbs).

When you get a dog off carbs they metabolize fat as their primary energy source, and do so with great efficiency. Far metabolism proves steady and almost unlimited energy and improves a dog’s aerobic capacity in a dramatic fashion.

The fat in a balanced raw diet is necessary and healthful.

Bill

[Amelia Z]

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. Actually I am testing with honest kitchen. My only concern with it is it has high carbs which will increase their glycemic index. I may just feed them that one meal and a raw and/or freeze dried another. There are alot of potatoes in that food. If I feed just that to both my dogs, it would cost $350 a month.

[Patricia A]

So in further research I found this article that I think makes sense to me. What I took away from it is that it’s both grains AND starches that displace quality protein that intern causes amino acid deficiencies. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Now I’m feeding some kibble with topper of freeze dried raw. But trouble is according to article raw with high fat means they are not getting enough protein from the raw diet. I wish I can find a raw that’s not also high in fat. I am just exhausted from my daily dog food research already and now this new worry about grain free. My take is that when companies got on the band wagon of touting “NO CORN, NO SOY etc” they just replaced it with other cheap fillers and fooled everyone into thinking all grain free recipes are outstanding foods.

[Susan]

Hi,
I would look for a limited ingredient single protein dry kibble, this Victor Active has 4 meats, excellent for a dog who has a healthy Intestinal tract..
My boy has IBD I had to start with a vet diet, then once we found a vet diet that agreed with him & firmed his poos & was doing 2 small firm poos a day “Eukanuba Intestinal” Low Residue formula he had to stay on Eukanuba Intestinal vet diet for 6-12months to strengthen his immune system (Gut), then after 9months, I started trying a new dry kibble but it had to have 1 single meat, limited ingredient kibble & he finally did well on Taste Of The Wild Pacific Stream, Smoked Salmon but in Australia our some of our TOTW formula’s do NOT have any Peas, Lentils Chickpeas like the America TOTW, we still get the old TOTW formula’s.. he did really well on the peas free TOTW Pacific Stream Salmon formula except he started vomiting back up the dry kibble, now I’ve learnt to stay away from any fish kibbles as they are higher in Contaminates & Toxins, I changed him over to the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb formula it just has Lamb as meat protein & he did really well, no skin problems & firm poo’s, then I started introducing other foods in his diet so he’d get use to different ingredients, I even went thru a Animal Nutritionist & put him on a raw elimination diet, Kangarro & blended veggies, his poos were beautiful BUT he kept regurgitating back up water & some digested raw, then he was getting bad acid reflux & after regurgitating the raw the acid burnt esophagus so I put him back on dry food & started to cook the raw diet & feed it for Lunch & feed 4 smaller meals thru the day..

I would take baby steps, you will know once she has stopped taken all her meds…
Why does your 4-5 month old pup have UTI’s, she is so young?? also the pancreas test, you’d know if she had Pancreas problems, she’d be vomiting sometimes, eating grass & having pancreas pain & maybe sloppy poo’s, but her Pancreas would young & healthy??
I really think she is too young to be having problems with her Pancreas??..
What colour are her poos?? if her poos are yellow, smelly & sloppy look into Small Intestinal Bowel Overgrowth, S.I.B.O……while she was taking Metronidazole (Flagyl) were her poos better? sometimes they need to take the Metronidazole for 21-28 days to kill any bad bacteria in stomach/small bowel.. this is what Patch ended up having SIBO & Helicobacter-Pylori, it took a few years to get everything healthy aagain, now I can feed him any foods as long as he’s not sensitive to those ingredients, he does well on Chicken for stomach & bowel BUT not for his skin, he gets red yeasty paws & red skin around his mouth after he eats Chicken, Barley, Oats, Tapioca, Corn & cooked Carrots make his ears itchy…

If you can afford a vet diet that’s where I’d start, as Intestinal Vet diets have FOS, MOS, Inulin, Vitamin B, Beet Pulp, everything to help make the Intestinal Tract healthy, then once she is stable on a vet diet for at least 6 months then start her on a premium dog food that only has 1 meat protein & a few carbs..but slowly start introducing over 2 week period if you see her poos going sloppy while introducing new food, then stop new food & go back a few steps & stay on what she was doing firm poos on & keep a diary write everything down, food, ingredients, flea med, worm meds etc just in case you needs to remember certain things….I wouldnt give her any of those Flea chews yet, just use the spot on flea repellents for now till you work out her stomach bowel problem, just in case she has a very sensitive stomach/bowel, I just read a post on a Staffy f/b group, the lady gave her dog a Bravecto chew will the vet gave her dog the Bravecto chew & he’s been in vet hospital on a drip now for 1 week, dont ever vaccinate, worm & give flea chews all at the same time some vets do this on vet visits I know teh rescue vets do this & some dog can not cope always leave 1-2 weeks inbetween meds vaccination & flea repellents etc
How much does the bag of kibble say to feed her for the weight of your pup? maybe feed 3 smaller meals a day, thats what your suppose to feed a puppy 3 meals a day then they go to the 2 larger meals as they are older.. also have you tried boiled chicken or turkey breast & some boiled potato or try boil rice & see are her poos firm?? maybe for lunch over weekend try a small cooked meal, or a wet can vet diet the Royal Canine Intestinal low fiber is really good, some vet diets are formulated for growning pups your vet will know which ones Im pretty sure the Hills I/D Digestive Care wet & dry is formulataed for growing pups this way you”ll see does she do firm poos over a 2 week period? or try the single meat limited carbs next & see if poos are sloppy then try a vet diet.. Keep us informed with what happens with Zanya’s health….

[Amelia Z]

Yes, you are correct. I have a call into the sport dog company. Don’t know how a “non” sport dog will do on this food. Not sure if it is too rich.

I haven’t feed grains to my dogs. Auggie was tested for food sensitivity and he is sensitive to corn. In general I don’t think grains are good for dogs. Dogs are carnivores, so the main source of protein in their diet should be meat. Grains are inferior sources of protein. Diets with higher grain and carbohydrate content can lead to weight gain, allergies and other potential health problems. I believe grains can become moldy as well. Not to mentions they are sprayed with pesticides. The problem is pet food manufacturers need a filler in the foods, so it’s either grains or legumes. Very few kibble is free of both of these.
As far as Purina and Royal Canin. just look at the ingredients, junk! I don’t trust either of these companies, it’s all about the money. Purina who makes Beneful, shouldn’t be on the market.
Royal Canin 1st two lines of ingredients: (doesn’t sound like something I would eat)
Brown rice, chicken by-product meal, oat groats, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, wheat, chicken fat, natural flavors, powdered cellulose, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, wheat gluten, dried tomato pomace, vegetable oil, sodium silico aluminate, calcium carbonate, potassium..
The 1st ingredient in food should be a named protein (chicken, beef, pork etc) NOT rice in my opinion. My older golden who is 7, always had yeasty ears. The past couple of months I am only giving them kibble one meal, their other meal I am giving them freeze dried-Orijen regional red. I use to clean his ears every other day. Now, no yeast in 3 weeks. Coincidence, I don’t think so. I do believe that kibble is the worse type of food to feed, so I have been researching other options. I know the big push is to go raw, but I just can’t do that yet, which is why I am giving one meal freeze dried. Although, it’s getting pretty expensive.

[Patricia A]

Dr. Becker wrote …Unfortunately, some processed pet food advocates are using the link between grain-free dog foods and DCM to try to push pet parents back in the direction of grain-based diets. Don’t be fooled. The problem with grain-free formulas isn’t the lack of grains! It’s the high level of starchy carbohydrates coupled with the extreme high-heat processing methods used to produce these diets.
So would I be safe to assume a commercial raw as I’m feeding is safe? What about low carb kibble? Very confused.

[Patricia A]

Just like to share this. By Dr. Karen Shaw Becker

Thirty years ago, researchers at the School of Veterinary Medicine at University of California, Davis discovered the link between taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), a heart muscle disease in cats.1 According to Morris Animal Foundation, “The veterinary community was stunned” by this news, in part because the UC-Davis researchers were able to prove that DCM was reversible when cats received the amount of taurine they needed in their diet.2

Of course, most holistic veterinarians and others knowledgeable about veterinary nutrition and who understand the link between diet and disease weren’t surprised. Taurine, which is an amino acid, is found in meat, and cats, as meat-eating obligate carnivores, haven’t developed the ability to make their own taurine.

This means it’s an essential amino acid for cats — they must get it from their diet, and 30 years ago when UC-Davis veterinarians made their discovery, we were well into the age of processed pet food, having made cats (and dogs) almost entirely dependent on humans for their nutrition.

Pet food formulators often guessed at the effects of extensive processing on nutrients. This is especially true for pet food (feed) that blends leftover pieces and parts from the human meat processing industry with other sources of questionable nutrients before they are rendered and cooked at high temperatures, depleting the nutrients that existed before processing, as well as altering the chemical composition of ingredients (and often creating toxic byproducts along the way).

Are Dogs With DCM Taurine-Deficient?
As soon as the UC-Davis researchers published their findings in cats back in the late 1980s, veterinary cardiologists began looking for taurine and other nutrient deficiencies in their canine patients with DCM.

No direct cause-and-effect relationship could be established, since the vast majority of dogs with DCM weren’t taurine-deficient. Taurine is not considered an essential amino acid for dogs because like many other species, their bodies have the metabolic capacity to manufacture taurine from the dietary amino acids cysteine and methionine.

To further confuse the issue, while the disease is inherited in certain breeds, for example, the Doberman Pinscher, in other breeds it is indeed linked to taurine deficiency. In the mid-1990s, UC-Davis conducted a study of American Cocker Spaniels with DCM and found low taurine levels in many of the dogs. The study authors wrote in their abstract:

“We conclude that ACS [American Cocker Spaniels] with DCM are taurine-deficient and are responsive to taurine and carnitine supplementation. Whereas myocardial function did not return to normal in most dogs, it did improve enough to allow discontinuation of cardiovascular drug therapy and to maintain a normal quality of life for months to years.”3

A 2003 study showed that some Newfoundlands had taurine deficiency-related DCM,4 and two years later, another study was published about a family of Golden Retrievers with taurine deficiency and reversible DCM.5 As veterinary cardiologists continued to encounter cases of taurine deficiency-related DCM in dogs, and continued to search for a common link, diet was thought to play a major role in development of the disease.

UC-Davis Is Currently Conducting Research on Taurine Deficiency-Related DCM in Golden Retrievers
The dogs receiving the most focus right now due to escalating rates of DCM related to taurine deficiency are Golden Retrievers. Veterinarian and researcher Dr. Joshua Stern, Chair of the Department of (Veterinary) Cardiology at UC-Davis, and owner of a Golden Retriever Lifetime Study participant named Lira, is looking into the situation.

He’s collecting blood samples and cardiac ultrasound results from Goldens both with DCM and without the disease. Stern agrees diet plays a role, but he also suspects there are genes at work that increase the risk of the condition in the breed.

“I suspect that Golden Retrievers might have something in their genetic make-up that makes them less efficient at making taurine,” Stern told the Morris Animal Foundation. “Couple that with certain diets, and you’ve given them a double hit. If you feed them a diet that has fewer building blocks for taurine or a food component that inhibits this synthesis, they pop up with DCM.”6

Dr. Stern has written an open letter to veterinarians and owners of Goldens that you can read here. In it, he briefly explains his research and recommends a four-step process dog parents can undertake if they believe their pet is at risk for, or is showing signs of DCM:

1. If you believe your dog is at risk for taurine-deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) and wish to have taurine levels tested, please request a whole blood taurine level be submitted (lithium heparin tube) for analysis. The laboratory I recommend can be found here.

2. If you believe your dog is showing signs of DCM already, please seek an appointment with a board-certified cardiologist to have an echocardiogram and taurine testing obtained simultaneously — do not change foods, do not supplement prior to the appointment.

3. If you receive taurine test results that come back as low, please seek an appointment with a board certified cardiologist to have an echocardiogram performed to determine if your pet needs cardiac medications and the appropriate supplements to be used (DO NOT SUPPLEMENT OR CHANGE FOODS UNTIL YOU HAVE THE CARDIOLOGY EVALUATION COMPLETED).

If you live in close to UC Davis, we can arrange research-funded cardiology evaluations for your dog if you contact at this email address.

4. If you receive cardiologist-confirmed DCM results, please take an image of the food bag, ingredient list and lot number. Please also request a copy of the images from the echocardiogram from your cardiologist (ensure that you have full DICOM image copies on a CD). Please download and complete the full diet history form found at this link.

Please email the image of food bag, a three-generation pedigree, diet history form, copies of the taurine level results and medical record to this email address. A member of our laboratory team will contact you to discuss our thoughts and possibly request additional information, food samples or blood samples for further testing.

Stern wants to get to the bottom of this issue as fast and as medically appropriately as possible. He hopes to publish his initial findings soon and offer scientifically based guidelines for Golden parents regarding diet and DCM. If you’re interested in published research on taurine deficiency and canine DCM, Stern also created a collection of files you can download at this link.

A Particular Brand of Grain-Free Kibble Is Implicated in Some Cases of Diet-Related DCM in Goldens
Although Stern doesn’t discuss specific diets in his letter linked above, according to Dr. Janet Olson of Veterinary Cardiology Specialists:

” … [T]he majority of cases [of taurine deficiency-related DCM in Golden Retrievers] they [Stern and his team] are seeing at UC-Davis are from grain free diets that are high in legumes, like ACANA pork and squash [kibble].”7

Other sources, including a Golden Retriever owner in Mountain View, CA who contacted us, also mention the same food — ACANA Pork and Squash Singles Formula limited ingredient kibble made by Champion Petfoods. According to my Mountain View source, Dr. Stern has been following a group of Goldens with DCM who had been eating the ACANA formula, and a year later, after changes to their diet, taurine supplementation and in some cases, the use of heart medications, all 20+ dogs either fully or significantly recovered.

Consumers who’ve contacted Champion about the issue receive a response stating that taurine isn’t an essential amino acid for dogs, and ACANA and ORIJEN diets are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles for all life stages. (Since taurine isn’t considered an essential amino acid for dogs, AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles establish no minimum requirement for taurine.)

Champion acknowledges that a taurine deficiency may contribute to the incidence of DCM in genetically susceptible dogs, but states their diets aren’t formulated for dogs with “special needs.”

Are All the Starchy Ingredients in Grain-Free Kibble to Blame?
Since grain-free dry dog food is a relatively new concept, it’s quite possible there’s something about the high-starch (carb) content in these diets that depletes taurine levels and/or makes the taurine less bioavailable. The problem might be related to a chemical reaction (called the Maillard reaction) between taurine and a carbohydrate during the extrusion process that depletes the digestible taurine level in the food.

And while legumes are being singled out as the potential problematic ingredient, grain-free kibble is often higher in both whole carbohydrates and purified starches (e.g., pea starch, potato starch and tapioca starch) than grain-based dry dog food. The higher the starch level in any pet food, the less protein is included.

In a study published in 1996 on the effect of high heat processing of cat food on taurine availability, the researchers noted, “These results suggest that Maillard reaction products promote an enteric flora that favors degradation of taurine and decreases recycling of taurine by the enterohepatic route.”8

Said another way: The byproducts of the chemical reaction between amino acids and sugars (carbs) in dry cat food alter the microbiome (gut bacteria), causing degradation of the taurine in the food, reducing its availability to the cat, and also preventing the taurine from being efficiently recycled by the cat’s body.

An earlier study published in 1990 that looked at taurine levels in a commercial diet that was fed heat-processed to some cats and frozen-preserved to others drew the same conclusion. The researchers stated ” … processing affects the digestive and/or absorptive process in a manner that increases the catabolism of taurine by gastrointestinal microorganisms.”9

Other Factors That Influence the Taurine Content of Pet Food/Feed
A 2003 study published in the Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition looked at taurine concentrations in the ingredients often used in both home prepared and commercial pet diets, as well as how cooking influences taurine content.10

The researchers reported that animal muscle tissue, especially marine animals, contains high levels of taurine, whereas plant-based ingredients contained either low or undetectable amounts. Also, the amount of taurine that remains after cooking is somewhat dependent on the method of food preparation. When an ingredient was cooked in water (e.g., boiling or basting), more taurine was lost unless the water used to cook the food was included with the meal.

Food preparation that minimized water loss (e.g., baking or frying) retained more of the taurine, however, it’s important to note that heat processing in any form destroys anywhere from 50 to 100 percent of taurine present in raw food. In addition, extended periods of storage of processed pet foods, and freezing, thawing and grinding of raw pet food also depletes taurine content.11

Another UC-Davis study published in 2016 evaluated the taurine status of large breed dogs fed low-protein diets (lamb and rice formulas), since they are now known to be at increased risk for taurine deficiency-related DCM.12 The researchers specifically looked at the ingredients rice bran and beet pulp used in many of these diets, and determined that while rice bran didn’t seem to be a primary cause of taurine deficiency, beet pulp may be a culprit.

Both rice bran and beet pulp bind bile acids (bile acids should be recycled, which effectively recycles taurine) in the small intestine, and increase excretion (which is undesirable) because it depletes taurine by interfering with the enterohepatic recycling of taurine-conjugated bile salts and lowers total body taurine levels.

Grain-free/”low-protein” commercial diets are very high in carbohydrates, which displace amino acids. They also contain anti-nutrients (e.g., saponins, trypsin inhibitors, phytates and lectins) that may interfere with taurine absorption. When you add in the high-heat processing used to manufacture kibble, it’s hardly surprising these diets aren’t an adequate source of taurine for many dogs.

How You Can Protect Your Dog
Those of us who are passionate about animal nutrition have been having a painful awakening for some time now about just how nutrient-deficient many dogs and cats are today. The taurine-DCM issue in dogs is yet another example that animals need much higher levels of bioavailable amino acids from a variety of sources than most are consuming.

Unfortunately, some processed pet food advocates are using the link between grain-free dog foods and DCM to try to push pet parents back in the direction of grain-based diets. Don’t be fooled. The problem with grain-free formulas isn’t the lack of grains! It’s the high level of starchy carbohydrates coupled with the extreme high-heat processing methods used to produce these diets.

Until we have much more information on the subject, my current recommendation is to supplement all dogs with high-taurine foods, no matter what type of diet they’re eating. An easy way to do this is to simply mix a can of sardines into your pet’s meal once a week. You can also find the taurine content of many other foods on page two of this study and also in this Raw Feeding Community article.

If you have a breed or breed mix known to be susceptible to DCM (e.g., Golden Retriever, Doberman Pinscher, Cocker Spaniel, Boxer, Great Dane, Scottish Deerhound, Irish Wolfhound, Saint Bernard, Afghan Hound, Dalmatian, Portuguese Water dog, Old English Sheepdog, Newfoundland), especially if you’ve been feeding grain-free kibble, or if for some other reason you’re concerned about your dog’s heart health, I recommend following Dr. Joshua Stern’s four-step process outlined above, starting with a visit to your veterinarian.

[Katie K]

I’ve heard about this twice within the past week and tried researching it. It sounds like the majority of people in this thread read the same article that I did. To me, it was very unclear. What makes them Think certain foods are causing this? Is it simply because the number of dogs with heart problems have gone up and more and more people are feeding their dogs grain-free? I would think that they would want something more conclusive before spreading this belief. What if a new vaccine is causing it? Or something environmental? Or it could be genetic, with the amounts of dogs in puppy mills. And the way it talks about taurine… A lot of dogs with a heart disease are deficient in taurine. But then again, a lot of them aren’t…?
My dog does have sensitive skin. He has allergies to some things. I feed him grain-free. He does great with the food I have him on. Is he allergic to grain? I don’t know. I do know that when his skin is irritated, he chews. When he chews, moisture gets into his skin and yeast starts to build up. Grain feeds the yeast and causes it to spread. A grain-free food won’t worsen the problem. If you feed a grain-free food with the right balance/amounts of probiotics, it actually fights the yeast. If, for some reason, his food were to cause a taurine deficiency, I would rather give him a supplement than switch him to a food that causes him to be itchy all the time.
This article isn’t just recommending to stay away from grain-free foods. It also says that “boutique” foods can cause heart problems. That term, “boutique foods” is kind of vague, no? So grain-free foods, “boutique” foods, and a raw diet.. According to this article, they’re all no good. Well, what does that leave us with? Hills Science Diet? This article talks about a vet who is researching this whole grain-free causing heart problems. Morris Animal Foundation is funding his research. Who started this foundation? The same person who started Hills Science Diet. What kind of food are vets recommending we switch our dogs to? Hills Science Diet.
Vets have been recommending and selling this food for decades. The more they sell, the more perks they get from the company. This food is so unhealthy but was very popular for a very long time because people trusted their vets. Now that we have the internet, more and more pet owners are educating themselves and making informed decisions on what to give their dog. I am sure Hill’s sales have dropped dramatically. It sounds to me that they are desperate to get back on top.
In my opinion, if your dog is doing well with the food s/he is eating, don’t change their diet. ESPECIALLY to Hill’s Science Diet. If they ever have proof to back this theory, of course I will take it seriously. But for now, it seems to me that they’re trying to take advantage of our love for our dogs to line their pockets.

[Spy Car]

@Tara H, I’d make doubly sure the issue isn’t giardia or other similar issues. Likewise, I’d want to know there is no issue with the pancreatic tests that have been run.

Assuming there are no issues, I’d either move to a PRM raw diet (my strong preference) or move to a mushers-type formula that minimizes carbs as much as possible (for a kibbled diet).

Victors brand, which you’ve tried, has a formula called Ultra Pro which is 44/22 (protein/fat) that minimizes carbs and is high calorie (so you can feed less food). Aside from having to process too much carb-waste, the other main food-related cause of diarrhea is eating too great a volume of food. Smaller portions of high-density foods (with less or no non-essential carbs) is kinder to a dog’s GI tract.

I would rule out any vet issues.

Bill

[Fran H]

Have a Pomeranian who is currently eating Stella Chewy raw freeze dried chicken patties. She loves it but she has loose stools. Any recommendations on a high quality food that isn’t dry that would help with this?

[Acroyali]

Jaky S, Smith Ridge is a top notch facility.
Unfortunately people here will come along calling them homeopathic and holistic and link ridiculous articles from vets living in the 1960’s to attempt to discredit them and steer people away.
This site is not raw friendly and is not holistic friendly.

[InkedMarie]

I buy my dogs raw from Hare Today; I believe their largest bag is 5lbs.

Reel Raw has 10 pounders