[kms]

Hi all! Just wanted to post an update on Augie and really need advice again. My vet has done all he can do to get rid of the Campylobactor bacteria. First, he put Augie on Marbofloxcin – which I opposed after reading about adverse effects on large breed puppies. After 4 days with no change in stool, we switched to Clavamox. Did 1 round. The stool is the same (1st part is formed, 2nd part runny). So vet sent us to an Internal Medicine specialist. Specialist did exam and sent bloodwork to Texas A&M for a CBC panel, profile and GI Panel. All bloodwork normal – TLI and Folate were fine and no pancreatic inflammation. Specialist thinks this is likely Inflammatory Bowel Disease. She suggested doing a biopsy of the large and small intestine (either a Biopsy via surgery or Biopsy via Endoscope). I asked if we could try elimination or hypoallergenic diet to see if the IBD is due to diet and she said “since he’s not losing weight, I’d be ok with that – but wouldn’t know anything for couple months”. If we go that route, she recommends Royal Canin HP (hydrolyzed protein; hypoallergenic, soy based protein). I asked about treating IBD with RAW or at least with a more premium limited ingredient food and she had no experience/opinion there.

I worry about him being only 7 mo old and having to go through all this. Can pups really have true IBD this young? My gut is telling me to change the diet, but I could end up spending 2-3 more months on something that doesn’t pan out for him. What do you think? Has anyone ever fed Royal Canin HP for GI issues? It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the first ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Thanks for any advice or insight….

[Shasta220]

Shasta is about 6y.o. He never used to smell bad (other than an average “doggie” scent, of course!)… But the past few months, he’s had a constant odor. Bathing helps a little (I usually use Dawn mixed with some organic rosemary-mint shampoo, then follow w a conditioner so his fur doesn’t get flaky), but even if I let the shampoo sit for 5-10min, I can smell faint amounts of the foul smell. I also doubt it’s anything to do with his food, he was on dog chow back when he didn’t stink at all…now he’s on Diamond naturals and still stinks.

Are there any supplements that help with odor? We tried Brewers yeast, Fish oil, and raw eggs. None helped any.

I also can’t afford much to be honest, I already have 3 dogs, cats, a cow, a pony, chickens, and ducks to feed…not much wiggle room in the budget.

[Blue8091]

Hi PugsMomSandy!
I realize I should have posted in the raw category. Thanks so much for your suggestions. I am especially drawn to See Spot Live Longer dinner mixes. It’s strikingly similar to Urban Wolf but much simpler. If I didn’t use the sardines – exactly how would I add the fish oils? Would canned pink salmon work? I had a system going – make one large batch (80-88 servings) which I would divide 14 servings into a 1 gallon freezer bag. I’d withdraw 2 from the freezer daily (ready for the next day). I was never exactly sure how long until fish (salmon or chub) would go bad in fridge. I add a small bit of beef broth and pop in the microwave for about 15 secs to take the chill off. The price point is excellent – just need to figure out how many lbs of beef! Does your lil pug eat SSLL?

[crazy4cats]

Hi Ana-
I have used Walmart’s Pure Balance canned food and thought it was a great value. My dogs loved it and they did well on it. I even used the one that is not grain free and didn’t think there was really that much rice in it. It looked and smelled very good. I also have used Kirkland cuts in gravy frequently. Canned food is way too expensive. I don’t think you should feel bad about using either one of these brands. It’s a good way to add less processed food to your dog’s kibble. Right now, I’ve been adding some frozen raw nuggests, sardines, or eggs to their kibble in the evenings because I got tired of recycling so many cans! But, I think I’m going to go back to the canned soon. They really like it! Good luck.

[pugmomsandy]

Look into See Spot Live Longer dinner mixes or CarnivorRaw by Young Again Pet Food (they also have a good kibble). And I package my raw into packages that would last 3 days worth. I fill a gallon size freezer bag only half full so I can flatten it and so the food thaws quickly then I transfer it to a Tupperware once thawed out.

[GizmoMom]

rhonda, look into PMR (Prey Model Raw)
http://preymodelraw.com/

Or home cooked meal.
http://www.dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html

[CattleCait]

I realize this is a dog forum, not cat, but I’m hoping someone out there also has cats and can help me here.

I have an old geezer who I’m switching to canned from kibble (first step transitioning to raw) and he only likes the chunky food with bits and pieces in it and he does not like tuna. I’ve been feeding him BFF Tuna and Chicken but I’m basically wasting half the can because he just picks out the chicken and leaves the tuna.

Any suggestions as to a “piecy” chicken food we could try? Googling pictures doesn’t seem to help much, so short of opening every can available, I’m not sure what else to do.

We have the following canned cat food options available at the store that I work at – Wellness, Wellness Core, Felidae Pure, Weruva, BFF, Nature’s Logic, Great Life, and Fromm.

[Shasta220]

I completely understand your need for economical nutrition! We have about the same problem… 3 years ago we had just two dogs and 5 cats. Now? 2 Betta fish, 3 cats, 3 dogs (aka PIGS with how much they eat…), 8 chickens, 2 ducks, a miniature horse, and a 600lb puppy dog (aka Iggy the Holstein steer…he doesn’t know he’s a cow)

We obviously cannot splurge that much on buying ultra quality food (our lab has allergies though, so she can’t have foods full of wheat/corn).

The most economical and quality foods I’ve found so far are Nutra Nuggets (I ONLY get the lamb n rice formula, since lamb meal is the first ingredient instead of corona or byproduct), Diamond naturals, and Kirkland signature. Kirkland is 4star food, about 25$ for 40lb, and can be found at Costo (possibly you could find it online?). Diamond naturals is very similar to Kirkland, but it’s 40$ (I get the Large Breed 60+ since it has glucosamine and chondroitin to help their joints). Nutra nuggets is the same price as Kirkland, but only 3-star.

To make the food last a bit longer, possibly try adding your own nutritious “fillers” such as sweet potatoes (baked), carrots, apples, and meat (cooked or raw). Possibly try to find a local butcher and see if you can buy meat-scraps, or meat that’s slightly expired (just past human-consumption, but 100% safe for dogs). I know a girl who was able to buy virtually unlimited amounts of expired meat for her 5 dogs and 8 cats… It was, I think, $.50 per lb, which is a serious steal! Yep, she gives her lucky pups 100% raw, lol!

I hope you’ve found something that’s good for the dogs and your wallet. Also, try not to get “lite” foods (I don’t ever get the lite ones…not even if it’s a quality brand), you may find yourself feeding more. Switching to a food that’s even a little better than Beneful might actually be cheaper, since you may feed less.

When I owned my 90lb APBT mix, he ate 9c of Dog Chow daily (and he was super thin, too!). We switched him over to Nutra Nuggets, and he went down to about 2c daily without gaining/losing ANY weight. My biggest tip is this: even if you can’t afford much, at least make sure meat is the #1 ingredient (meal is fine, avoid by product if you can…).

[JASTECH]

I too agree, stay far away from Hills and Eek, Aims and the like. I rotate variety within the main feed of my yard of 15+. They have been on Fromm a long time. I still feed raw a day or more a week as a good change and add fish oil and milk thistle to it.

[JASTECH]

Jesse82, the food change is your best choice. When a dog is healthy inside the skin & coat follows which mites don’t like. Sense your dog is of a mixed breed called Bully Breed (not American Pit Bull Terrier) they have skin, joint, tumor and other issues more then pure bred APBT.
So start with the food, try feeding a BARF diet staying away from the grains and post your results as what raw meats and how much you feed your dog. The specs on your dog will help determine how much to feed, energy level etc.

[Shasta220]

Pugmomsandy has good suggestions as well. It really depends on how quickly your pup can clean out a kong, really. I wonder if making other DIY treat dispensers (or buying them at PetCo/PetSmart), maybe you could find one that would make the food last longer than a kong does.

If you could acclimate your pup’s taste buds to veggies, you could chop them up and bake/dehydrate them for a while. Veggies make for a low-cal treat. (Possibly even boiling the veggies w some chicken broth, or just a chunk of fatty meat, to make them tastier)

Just keep an open mind and let your creativity-gland shine! 😉

[Shasta220]

Hm, I imagine stuffing a kong with raw food might be a bit messier for sure. Maybe grinding the raw food up, cut into kibble-sized pieces, then freeze (or possibly even baking would work) to harden them. That might be a bit much as far as work goes.

If you don’t mind the mess and puppy is good at cleaning the kong out completely, just grind up his daily raw meat (leaving the bones out…) and stuffing it in there?

I’d recommend cleaning out the kong regularly, as raw residue could cause some icky build up I’m guessing.

Best wishes with you and your new fur baby!

[Shasta220]

I use peanut butter usually. It’s tasty, and it does stiffen up in the freezer, but won’t completely harden like I hope it would. I even added a little corn starch, hoping it might stiffen up a bit more, still didn’t work. I will try the kibble definitely, and look into yogurt.

Normally, i wouldn’t care what How messy Loki’s chews are, but he needs something to do when he comes inside. He’s quite mischievous (to say the least). Luckily, it’s not in a bad way LOL! He is good enough to stay out of the dry cat food, but he steals the other cat’s raw chicken bones… (It’s actually nice sometimes, because he finds the little remains that the cat dragged under the table or in a corner.) Then he tries to chew up my favorite stuffed animals -_- it’s so adorable though. He trots off, finds a stuffie, then brings it over to me and looks at me like “Mama, can I pleeeeease tear this one’s head off?” I’m so glad he asks before he destroys…

Sorry about the ramble 😉 like I say, this isn’t a /huge/ issue, but thanks for the helpful tips so far.

[Jackie B]

Dr. Mike plans to come out with a Cat Food Advisor someday. Cats are easier than dogs though. They are obligate carnivores. The more meat in the diet, the better for them. And if they will eat wet food, that is preferable to dry (especially raw wet food but cooked should be OK. People say raw preserves more nutrients and I’m sure it does but cats are picky.). You should at least supplement dry cat food with the wet food several times a week to help prevent kidney issues and other problems down the line.

My friend who is a cat expert feeds Authority wet food from PetSmart. She fosters cats so she has to pick a budget friendly but still good food. If I had a cat I would likely feed a frozen raw product.

[Becca]

I’ve been feeding my dogs raw for over 2 years. to make a long story short there has got to be something missing, one of my dogs is sooo allergic to flea bites. I have tired every natural or homemade product out there for prevention nothing works. I wont use the spot on poisons. there must be something to boost his immune system with food. here is what I feed them.
chicken back
ground duck bone in
ground turkey bone in
ground beef
green tripe
beef trachea
organ meat
liver
little amount of veggies
I have done so much research on digestive enzymes, probiotics then hear bad things about it. started giving salmon oil then find out its no good unless given vitamin e with it. now I’m thinking of trying Braggs organic unfiltered acv with the mother. I think my cat brings in the bulk of the fleas and he’s allergic too.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks again Patty!

One other question…does anyone know if HDM evaluated Bravo! Raw food? It’s not on her list (and it is a 5-star rated food) but I’m unsure if that’s because it didn’t meet criteria, wasn’t checked or weren’t responsive when questioned. Though I am planning to eventually DIY I’m looking for a reasonably priced alternative in the meantime.

Again, can’t thank everyone enough for the advice on this forum.

[Becca]

I’ve been feeding my dogs raw for over 2 years now. One of my dogs suffesr from sever allergies to fleas. I will not use the spot on poison and I’ve tried every natural and or homemade remedy that has ever been thought of, nothing works. I’ve done so much research it is driving me crazy, just when I think I have the answer I see something bad about it. I started giving my dogs salmon oil and found out that no good without giving vitamin e, I spent 3 days researching digestive enzymes and probiotics then I find out its a waste, if feeding raw. I don’t know what to believe anymore. I’m going to try braggs organic acv with the mother. just looking for the missing link of why one of my dogs rips himself to pieces for hours when bitten by fleas. I think my cat bring in the bulk of the fleas he’s also allergic.

[theBCnut]

All of their formulas are pretty high in carbs, which is not ideal for yeast. You should look into Nature’s Variety Instinct’s LID formulas. Antibiotics make yeast worse too.

For my dog, I used 1/2 Brother’s Complete Turkey and 1/2 raw. I added ACV, coconut oil, spirulina, probiotics, and digestive enzymes.

[raylene5]

Thanks Patty. I’ve heard conflicting things about it. On the one hand, I’ve heard that puppies are very resilient so they should adjust to a new food very easily. And that the goat’s milk is great for transitioning because it helps strengthen their stomachs and protect it from bacteria. But then I’ve also heard that it’s better to gradually introduce the new food so as not to make too many changes in their lives too quickly.

I guess that for me, I was hoping to keep kibble out of the house. I’m not one to say kibble is the devil or anything like that 🙂 It’s just that I really want to make raw succeed and sort of like with breast-feeding, you might not even want to have formula in the house so as not to rely on it in case of difficulty. Does that make sense?

Thanks for your help! 🙂

[Shasta220]

Thanks for the help, guys! We have one super picky eater (like I say, the cats have always been on super cheap food)… He only eats Cat Chow so far, but it’s pretty much garbage. So far, a really affordable dry food (that’s also quality) is Chicken Soup for the Cat Lover’s Soul. I also wonder if I could find Diamond Naturals for cats (some people HATE the dog food for it, others love it. All of my dogs are on it and they’re doing great).

I’m planning on finding some quality canned food for my older kitty (I really want to try Evo 95% chicken and turkey). I’m not sure if the other one would eat it, he’s refused other organic canned foods, haha. I’m not worried about him though, because he nibbles on some of our cat’s raw food (just to clarify. We have 3. Maddy is a senior…she just eats the dry and maybe canned. Panda ONLY eats dry…then Millie is too sophisticated for cat food, she eats only raw…)

[Mom2Cavs]

Like you and Patty said, if you can trust a dog food company and the food is rated a good one, then their cat food should be pretty good, too. Most people feel that cats should never eat a dry food. They are also obligate carnivores and need high protein, i.e. meat. Now…I will say I do leave dry out all the time for my cat to nibble on and she does like to do that occasionally. She gets fed a wet/canned food morning and evening. I add in missing link well blend to her food. She has some allergy responses and this seems to help. She loves Instinct kibble (not all flavors/kinds, though) but hates their canned food. She also likes Orijen/Acana. Currently, she’s eating Fromm Gamebird kibble and loves it. It also is doing well with her allergies. She eats Mulligan Stew canned, Fromm Gold canned, Wellness canned and pouches. She likes Weruva ok. I’ve tried premade raw with her a few times but she eventually won’t eat it. I keep trying, though, lol. She’s in perfect weight, as well.

[theBCnut]

Leave the puppy on the food it came to you on for at least a week so it isn’t having to make too many adjustments immediately. If it doesn’t have any stomach upset from changing homes, then decide if you think switching cold turkey is a good idea. Personally, I think that going from all kibble to all goat milk to all raw sounds like a lot of abrupt changes instead of one easy one. Usually to switch to raw they say to fast the dog for 24 hours then just start feeding raw. I started feeding raw when I had a puppy and I didn’t want to fast a little puppy for 24 hours, so I started using raw like a topper on the kibble. It really worked great for us and it turns out I still use half kibble to appease the squeamish members of the family.

[raylene5]

Hi all,

Getting our puppy in a couple of weeks. He’s been on a “high quality” kibble (I know the breeder feeds a very good quality kibble but can’t remembe which one it is). We are switching to Primal Pronto once we get him.

Anyway, I was talking to the salesperson at the local natural pet store and she said that when she transitions her puppies, she just quits the kibble cold-turkey, feeds only Answers raw goat milk for two days and then starts the puppy on raw the second or third day. She said she also always adds goats milk to her dog’s raw food, at every meal. I’ve read this approach on other websites as well.

Opinions?

Thanks!

[Sue’s Zoo]

First, thank you so much HDM for taking time to respond and Patty for helping out. I guess I did realize the c:p ratio was still important but was hoping it might be somewhat automatic when feeding raw. And from your response it seems like that is the case IF I get the balance correct between organ, muscle/tissue, and bone. And there are several ways to accomplish that–grinds, RMBs, Tripe mixes, etc. I guess at this point I just want the simplest way to get started, which ideally would be someone saying: feed this, then this, etc. 🙂 while I read and re-read all your info and additional recommended resources to educate myself and become more confident in creating my own meals. I did see some of your info under raw feeding giving your dogs various diets over a period of time. I’m going to look at those more closely because I think it’s what I need to kickstart the program. I just wasn’t sure if those contained all the necessary nutrition for large breed PUPPIES (as well as adult dogs). So thanks again for your response.

I think I may start with MPC as I look for less expensive routes for the future. Considering what I pay for just doing half Primal (chicken, beef, rabbit and venison) plus top end kibble/canned (rotating Wellness CORE Puppy/Earthborn Coastal Catch/Halo Surf n Turf, plus a daily can of FROMM Gold rotating proteins), with these pups, I can’t imagine it’s going to be much more…I hope. And I’m going to get a freezer (checking CL today)

And lastly, for now, you mentioned books. I have the Ancestral Diet book. I’ve noticed Dr. Becker’s is recommended in several places so I plan to get it. Are you familiar with Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth MacDonald? Any others you could recommend to help me jump in quickly?

So happy to have found this site. I’m sure I’ll have many more questions over the next few months. Learning so much from you and some others. And I’m a skeptic so I don’t trust everything I read on the internet. But just by reading your posts it’s obvious you’ve done the research and know what you’re talking about.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sue’s Zoo –

Yes, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still important when feeding a homemade raw diet. When feeding a “grind” such as those sold by My Pet Carnivore there’s really no way of knowing the “exact” C:P ratio although it is assumed that it’s balanced. However, as we know, the concern with large breed puppies is not only that the C:P ratio is balanced but also that it remains relatively low. My suggestion (and what I did with my pups) would be to mix in about 25% green tripe with any grind that you feed (MPC does have a great grind called “Ground Beef Tripe Supermix” which is 50% green tripe/40% muscle meat, bone, organ/10% trachea and gullet which would be a good choice). Green tripe has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 but the levels of each mineral are relatively low (only about 0.3%) this way you can “lower” the overall ratio without the risk of throwing it off balance.

It’s also perfectly fine to start young pups on RMBs (it’s easiest to start small – chicken necks, etc.) but I would recommend feeding some muscle meat at each RMB meal. RMBs do have a balanced C:P ratio but it is very high (usually close to that upper 2:1 limit) so I would say feed about half as much muscle meat as you do RMB. So, for example, if you feed 8 oz. of chicken necks also feed 4 oz. of muscle meat.

As far as ordering – you’re going to be going through A LOT of meat with two large dogs. I currently have two female bloodhounds and we go through about 150 lbs. of meat per month. When I had my large male (who unfortunately passed last summer) we were going through closer to 250 lbs. per month. My suggestion – especially if you’re on a budget – would be to try and locate a wholesaler. I get my meat delivered right to my house by a wholesaler that sells to grocery stores and restaurants. They butcher all their own meat so they do have items like chicken backs, gizzard, hearts, organ meat, etc. and will deliver to kennels that order at least 300 lbs. at a time. You will likely have to place a large order if you go this route but if you invest in some freezers it’s worth it in the long run – I pay <$1 per pound for everything I get. The only meat I order outside of my wholesaler is green tripe and I get this from Hare Today – with the shipping it’s the most expensive thing my dogs get. You can often find good deals on used freezers on craig’s list or in the free trader.

Do you know how to create a balanced diet from scratch? There are some great books out there and also some pre-mixes if you’re not sure about what you’re doing.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I’ve done quite a bit of research and really want to do it but still feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Originally posted on Feeding Large Breed Puppies topic)

[Sue’s Zoo]

Currently feeding my 6 month old shiloh half raw (Primal) and getting ready to move the 3 month old to raw as well. I want to switch to full raw but cost is prohibitive with commercial foods so I’ve decided to order my MPC and do it myself.

My concerns are:

-Do I still need to consider kcal and calcium/phosphorus ratio? If so how on earth would I calculate it?

-If someone has experience with this do you think it will be completely overwhelming to keep everything ordered in proper quantities with two very fast-growing pups? The older is now 85 pounds and the younger is 40.

-Should I wait til younger pups adult teeth are in (raw meaty bones)?

I really want to do it but feeling a bit overwhelmed. (Maybe I need a topic for feeding non-commercial raw to large breed puppies!) Also posting under Raw Feeding topic.

[Sue’s Zoo]

I actually tried to go through a couple of the forums that are relevant for my situation and pull out the significant information into a document. FAIL! If I had endless time (which means not having two large breed pups and an adult GSD!) I’d love to do it.

Would be great if some of the major contributors in various areas would do an FAQ (raw feeding, Feeding Large Breed Puppies are my big interests-hint hint). Or even get a few together and do your own ebook and charge a fee for it. I know I’d pay as I’ve been so impressed with the knowledge and experience of several contributors.

Just my 2 cents.

[theBCnut]

Then that sounds excellent! And $25C doesn’t sound like you are out too much even if all you get out of it is a better understanding of the issues, so it sounds great. I agree, BTW, about how the bits and pieces here and there are hard to digest. I needed it all in one place too. I started feeding raw by using a premix, then read every website I could find, then got a couple books. At that point I was finally starting to get comfortable with the idea that I could follow a recipe and make my own raw foods Now, I still use some recipes as a baseline, but I modify them all over the place, or I get grinds and add stuff to complete them. I use a little commercial raw too Sometimes I need an easy meal.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks Patty. I noticed they were offering special pricing of all 4 books for $25C so I just decided to do it. All the information on this site (DFA) is amazing but for me it’s difficult to digest because it’s in so many bits and pieces. I need it consolidated in one place, at least to get started. I’m sure I’ll be back here when I have specific questions.

So far the first several pages have been interesting and useful as they’re explaining why a raw diet is so beneficial. Very detailed info regarding digestion, anatomy, benefits of raw but written so a lay-person can understand.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by Sue's Zoo.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Posted this under Large Breed puppy feeding but didn’t get a response so thought I’d try here…

Is anyone familiar with the k9instinct website? Looks interesting but would like more info before investing in their resources. Looks like a good site to help with feeding raw without spending a fortune.
http://www.k9instinct.com/

[pugmomsandy]

Somebody sent me this link:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

Some whole prey numbers starting on page 9.

[LindaW]

If you are going to feed kibble, IMO, Nature’s Logic is the best one because it is the only one without synthetic vitamins/minerals. There’s one other out there, but it has RICE–also referred to as “arsenic”. I feed raw–when my pup will it eat. I’d like to feed Brothers Complete because she actually ate it, but am concerned about the synthetic vitamins and minerals which can cause long term problems, etc.

[LindaW]

If you feed canned tripe, Trippett is the only one with 99% tripe; the other ingredient is garlic and of course that stupid carra gum. Fresh raw green tripe from aplaceforpaws.com is awesome. Expensive though. I get mine from Top Quality Raw which is based in Maryland but makes a food run up the East Coast (I’m in NH) once monthly. Basically its a food club, I guess. But it is grass fed beef and bison and now sheep tripe.

[theBCnut]

You have to balance a raw diet. And giant breed dogs have special calcium requirements so their diet needs to be balanced extra carefully. But yes, they can get total nutrition from a good raw diet.

[kelster]

I have a 3 month old Giant Schnauzer, do puppies get total nutrition from feeding just raw?

[theBCnut]

They might catch an occasional bird, but when a pack hunts and catches larger game there would be more meat, less bone and they wouldn’t necessarily eat all of the heavier bones. I suppose that could balance out those birds.

[GizmoMom]

That’s an interesting question. I guess wild dogs don’t eat just birds. They would have more variety than that.

[pugmomsandy]

OK…so according to the website mentioned above, if whole birds are around 29-32% bone, where does the 80/10/10 come to play? Should I make raw grinds closer to 30% bone?? And what about dogs prone to struvites or ones that need decreased mineral content?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[RukatheBlackfish]

I have a 6 month old lab/pointer mix. We can’t do all raw food so we are trying to do the next best thing with 4/5 star kibble on rotation, with a wet food topper, and raw food stuffers. We noticed that he had an incredible amount of gas. I did some research on here and started him on a probiotic/enzyme supplement. That helped a lot, like incredibly so with nearly instant results. However he still has gas. I don’t know how much is normal. Usually he has gas around the same time of day too, that’s what I find interesting. It’s around 5:30pm then again at night (I think 10pm). He eats usually between 11:30-12pm and again at 8:30-9pm. He gets the probiotic with each feeding but not the raw food. However he’ll be gassy whether he eats the raw food or not.
I was thinking it might be the wet food. I think I’m rotating it too fast. There’s definitely some wet foods that make him have horrible gas. It’s nearly all stews (chunks of meat) and Merrick. His gas isn’t as bad on the food that’s one solid blob like Wellness Core, Halo, and Nature’s Variety Instinct.
I guess I’m wondering how much gas is normal. And if his gas is unusual what I can do to help it. Should I keep him on the same wet food through the whole bag of kibble? Or should I rotate it more often. And like with dry food should there a transition between wet foods? Or this normal as he’s a young dog and his gut flora is still maturing. I don’t know, shooting in the dark.
I really appreciate any help!

[theBCnut]

Feeding both at the same time is just fine for the large majority of dogs. Kibble and canned are digested at different rates too, but no one ever says you shouldn’t put canned food in the kibble because they digest at different rates. A healthy dog can handle changing from raw to kibble to dehydrated to canned with no transition. The fact that most dogs can’t change without transition is because our feeding practices have made their gut unhealthy. Many of us feed our dogs something completely different at every meal.

Some sites realize that feeding raw 100% is more than most people can do so promote feeding raw one meal, kibble the next, to get the benefits of raw. Darwin’s is one of them.

[Rabbinator]

I’ve read a lot about raw diets, kibble diets, wet diets, rotation diets, homemade and store-bought foods. I work in the pet industry and while nobody has actually asked me yet (raw is not really big in this area apparently), I have yet to find a definitive answer to my question.

Many things that I have read said not to, under any circumstances, rotate raw and kibble. Others say that it’s actually great to rotate raw and kibble, but not to feed both simultaneously (which makes sense re: digestion). I have found a lot of opinions, but no science to back any of it up (other than the simultaneous feeding). I understand protein rotation as well as wet/dry combination/rotation, but I’m at a loss for kibble/raw.

Does anyone have any evidence for/against a kibble/raw rotation?

And another fun question: If feeding raw and kibble simultaneously is unhealthy, why do I carry Nature’s Variety Instinct that is normal kibble with freeze-dried raw coating? Does the fact that it’s freeze-dried raw factor in at all, or is it a gimmick? (NV website about Raw Boost: http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/RawBoost/dog/lamb )

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi Dean-

I love THK and have been using it for going on 6 years. You have too look at the food based on calories. THK Love has 514 cal per cup. NV LID Turkey has 444 cal per cup. You would not have to feed as much of the THK as you would the NV. A 10lb box of THK has 40 dry cups in it. To determine how long a box of Love will last you, figure out how many calories you will feed a day then convert that to cups per day. Divide 40 cups by the number of cups per day you’ll feed and that will give you how many days the box will last. I mix THK with raw at a 50/50 mix so I feed my Dane 1.5 cups THK per day. One 10lb box lasts me about 26 days. My Dane only eats about 1700 calories per day.

Overall, I’m sure THK will cost a bit more than feeding kibble but less than feeding all canned or commercial raw. You just have to decide if the extra cost is worth it to you to feed a superior food that’s made with whole foods and human-grade ingredients.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by RescueDaneMom.

[pugmomsandy]

You can try kibble, yogurt, a dehydrated food like The Honest Kitchen or other and layer them in the kong and freeze. But these won’t last all day once they start thawing.

[raylene5]

Hi all,

So we are about to get a puppy in a couple of weeks and I’m wanting to try Dr. Dunbar’s “Before and After Getting your Puppy” advice and pretty much feed all meals from the Kong. He believes that keeping the puppy entertained and exercised with the chew toys will help with sleep, separation issues and keep them from chewing up other things in the house.

He says to measure out your dog’s kibble for the day and just stuffing it all in the Kong and let the dog eat from that instead of the food bowl, until they have been found to be trustworthy in the house. It’s important to use their allotted amount of kibble rather than treats because the treats are full of more fat and calories (some treats are fine). My problem is that I’m going to raw feed the dog. So what would I stuff the Kong with that they can eat all day without gaining too much weight?

Thanks!

[Shawna]

Hi Dorenda,

Took a few tries but I was able to log on.. Thanks Patty for the email heads up :)..

Vets often suggest low protein for renal disease when it really isn’t necessary. There are studies even that show dogs that have protein lowered to drastically too early in the disease have increased mortality. There’s some fantastic information on the topic on nutritionist Mary Straus’ website (see quote below). My dog has had kidney disease since birth and has been on high protein raw her whole life (45 to 54%) — she’ll be eight years old the end of June 2014.

“Based on research done in the last ten years (see s a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?), that the only time it is necessary to feed a low protein diet is when your dog is uremic, which generally means BUN is over 80 mg/dL (equivalent to 28.6 mmol/L), creatinine is over 4.0 mg/dL (equivalent to 354 µmol/L), and the dog is showing symptoms such as vomiting, nausea,inappetence, ulcers and lethargy, which are caused by the build-up of nitrogen in the blood. Even then, feeding low protein will not extend life, but it will help the dog feel better. Subcutaneous fluids can also help at this time (and before).” http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html

If your pup is uremic then consider K/D canned with added toppers to entice eating. Toppers like lightly cooked egg whites or canned green tripe are good options. Both are low in phosphorus but higher in protein. To counter the extra protein you can give probiotics and a certain type of prebiotic to induce “nitrogen trapping”. Nitrogen trapping utilizes the bacteria in the colon to help clean BUN from the blood. I use Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotic (human product) and Fiber 35 Sprinkle Fiber (also human product). If symptoms are bad enough that there is a need to keep protein really low try adding high quality fats — organic butter or ghee, coconut oil etc.

I would avoid kibble at ALL COST!!! Kibble of any kind including K/D.

Vet Dr. Royal created a raw kidney disease diet for Darwins. It can be found on their website – link below. The food is REALLY high in protein so again not an option if your pup is uremic. Here’s some info. The actual diet is on the site as well. Your vet will have to contact them to confirm your pup is a good candidate for the diet. http://www.darwinspet.com/kidney-health/

Mary Straus, link above, has diet recommendations on her site – she does include kibbles but kibbles are dehydrating and can cause issues. The protein in kibbles is also poorer quality than any other form and due to this creates more BUN then other diets with the same amount and kind of protein. Nutritionist Lew Olson also has some recipes on her website http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/

Supplements that might be helpful — the one that I will NEVER run out of with my KD girl is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. Turmeric, food grade activated charcoal and burdock root are some to look at. I’d also recommend giving a digestive enzyme no matter what you feed. Mineral waters higher in calcium while being lower in sodium have demonstrated some benefit. They didn’t identify the brand in the research paper but I believe they may have used Evian. I’ve also read that feeding smaller meals multiple times per day is beneficial.

Hope something here is helpful!! Sure hope you can get your pup feeling better!!!

Shawna

[Mom2Cavs]

I will just tell you what I do. I do go to a holistic vet where they do titers as the norm. Every year my dogs go in for blood to be drawn. It is sent to a lab and takes about 2 weeks to get back. It will tell us if the dog is immune to the normal diseases they get shots for. I’ve been titering for 2 years now and so far each dog has been immune and not needed to be vaccinated. Now, my vet does not titer for Rabies (you can, but it’s much more expensive) and because it’s required by law to have the shot, we do get a rabies shot every 3 years where I live. Lucy, however, will never get anymore shots, though, because of her cancer. Also, my vet doesn’t titer for bordatella and leaves that up to the owner to decide if they want it. I do give the nasal bordatella to the Cavaliers because they do Therapy Dog work and are around quite a few different dogs when we have get togethers, parades, etc. So far it hasn’t been a problem, though I may discontinue giving it because my vet says it doesn’t cover all the strains anyway. I am so glad I switched to my holistic vet and started doing this! My old vet wanted dogs vaccinated yearly (with 3 yr. rabies) without question, even when Stella (rip dear one) had a reaction one year he wanted to continue giving all vaccines to her. I sadly admit to doing what he wanted. Never again! I love my vets I have now!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by Mom2Cavs.

[Alsmom]

My dog is allergic to peas, wheat, barley, corn and soybean. Finally we have this knowledge and I am feeling a bit overwhelmed pawing thru the pages of all the dog foods ( raw, dry, and canned ). A long list of foods came along with Tristan’s allergy report. Addiction’s dry Le Lamb and canned venison stew seem to fit his needs. I think I know where to buy it too. Is this an overnite transition or a slow half new and half old? For some reason I feel anxious about picking the right food ( recall issues etc. )
If anyone out there has used the Addiction brand and types I plan to try…I would appreciate some feedback.
Tristan is 7, we have him for a bit more than a year. He’s been scratching chin and neck since we got him. The vet gave some shots, changed his food twice …no improvement. So now that we know what he’s allergic too I am optimistic and so happy to think how much more comfortable he will be. Thanks u! Alsmom

[theBCnut]

I would worry that with how they make canned foods, you wouldn’t ever be sure of consistant calcium levels, someone who knows more may prove me wrong, but that’s my worry with going completely canned.

I would leave him on the food he came on for several days or do a very slow transition, like 10% change instead of the 25% that is usually recommended. If you decide you want to go to raw, I would add it as a topper for a few days, then increase the amount.

Nature’s Variety Instinct, Annamaet, and Earthborn are some of my favorite kibbles on HDM’s list.

And yes, start rotation right from the beginning, before you use up one bag already have the next so you can transition. Keep an eye on the stool to know how fast you can transition and in no time your dog will be like ours and need no transition at all.

[AT]

New here…We are bringing an 8 week old Labrador puppy home next Saturday and I am trying to narrow in on food options. I have spent the last few days reading every single post in this thread and it has been quite an education – thank you to all of you who spend time here to help educate others!
My questions:
1. Our puppy will be coming home on Purina Pro Plan Focus Puppy Large Breed Formula and I want to transition him to something better as soon as possible. Would a few days after he is home and settled in be too soon to start a transition, provided he is not showing any signs of GI distress?
2. If price/cost is not a constraint, what off the shelf product would you feed a lab puppy? I am not up to a homemade diet at this point (might consider this in the future, but don’t trust myself to get up to speed in one week and to get it right during this crucial growth period). Most of the discussions I’ve read here involve rotating quality dry foods (with added toppers/supplements). Would this be the best way to start since our puppy will be coming home on a dry food?
It has also been stated that raw, canned or reconstituted is even better. I can see the raw recommendations in the document linked to several times throughout this thread. What do you consider to be the best of these brands? Would transitioning directly to raw be ok for our puppy; or should we go first to canned, then to raw?
Can anyone offer recommendations for the “best of the best” of canned foods for a large breed puppy? I figure I can call companies to calculate exact calcium/kcal, but could anyone offer the best brands/formulas to start my efforts? The fives stars listed in the library are:
By Nature 95% Meat (Canned)
Castor and Pollux Natural Ultramix (Canned)
Dogswell Dog Food (Canned)
EVO Dog Food (Canned)
Fromm Gold Nutritionals (Canned)
Go! Fit and Free (Canned)
Great Life Essentials (Canned)
Kirkland Cuts in Gravy (Canned)
Life’s Abundance (Canned)
Merrick Dog Food (Canned)
Merrick Grain Free Dog Food (Canned)
Nature’s Variety Instinct (Canned)
Pet-Tao Dog Food (Canned)
Pure Balance Dog Food (Canned)
Tiki Dog Food (Canned)
Wellness Core Dog Food (Canned)
Wellness Stews (Canned)
Weruva Kobe (Canned)
Weruva Kurobuta (Canned)
ZiwiPeak Daily Dog Cuisine (Canned)

Thank you so much for any advice!
AT

• This reply was modified 12 years, 2 months ago by AT.