Glad Bailey is doing so well, cyndi!
Glad to hear Baily is doing so well! 🙂
I’m sure she’ll love the ground rabbit from Hare – my dogs do. They also love the quail – I’ve fed both the dressed and whole prey with feathers, they love both. I usually go with the feathered quail though because they’re cheaper – my crew doesn’t leave anything behind (they eat the feathers, intestines and all) so it doesn’t make a mess.
Hi Everyone! Thought I’d share some good things, since all that Shep garbage ingredient has really grossed me out. Anyways, Bailey has been doing awesome! She is eating tripe regularly (& loving it) and she’s eating chicken hearts, and chicken & turkey livers regularly, with no problems. I also got her the whole rabbit grind from Hare Today that I’m going to give her probably next week. Not quite ready to do a whole prey animal with her, although I’m thinking about getting her a whole dressed quail (that sounds funny like it’s dressed in clothes or something) maybe sometime soon. I don’t think I can get anything with feathers or fur on it. Not sure I can handle that. Anyways, I also have Bailey completely off the Fresh Pet too, and her ear problem DID clear up. Not sure what in that food could have caused her problems, but I’m so glad it’s gone. So, that’s our update! I want to thank everyone, again, for all your help and suggestions. & I’m sure, if she could, Bailey would be thanking you all too! 🙂
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This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by
Cyndi.
Hi acs379 –
Nope, there’s nothing specific about excess fat that will cause developmental issues. Many veterinarians and breeders just tend to recommend lower fat foods because they generally have a lower calorie count per cup and they feel that it will be less likely that the dog will consume too many calories. However, as long as portion sizes are controlled it doesn’t pose an issue. My experience with my hounds has actually been that I have difficulty keeping weight on them – they tend to be on the thin side if anything, so for me it’s been really important to use more calorie-dense foods.
First off I would like to say that it is wonderful that your breeder is recommending the inclusion of fresh foods. Many breeders and veterinarians don’t recognize the importance of fresh foods. Fresh meat, plain yogurt and eggs are wonderful additions to dry kibble – they boost the protein levels and the species appropriateness. Adding eggs and boneless meat will also help to reduce the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the food as they’re high in phosphorus but low in calcium. Just be sure to keep the unbalanced extras to approximately 20% or less of the meal or you could skew the calcium to phosphorus ratio too much and potentially throw off the balance of the other nutrients in the food. Canned foods and dehydrated foods make great toppers too, if feeding a balanced canned or dehydrated food with appropriate calcium levels you can add as much as you want, if feeding a food with higher calcium levels or an unbalanced canned topper follow the 20% rule. Tripe makes an excellent topper – especially for large and giant breed puppies, the reason being that tripe has has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but very low concentrations of both minerals (only about 0.3% if I recall correctly). So feeding tripe will dilute the overall calcium levels without the risk of throwing of the c:p ratio. When Gertie was a pup she ate THK and I generally fed her 4 C. THK + 1 can Tripett (canned green tripe) daily (and some fresh additions like eggs, plain yogurt and tinned sardines a few times a week). Mabel started right off on raw and ate raw green tripe as about 25% of her diet for the first 6 months to keep her calcium levels low. Another benefit to tripe (if you can get it raw) is that it’s loaded with probiotics and digestive enzymes.
I generally recommend not supplementing with vitamins (unless per veterinarian recommendation) for those feeding a balanced commercial food, however vitamin c and vitamin b are water soluble vitamins so they are not harmful in excess, if you wanted to add them it shouldn’t cause any problems. The problems arise with certain minerals and fat soluble vitamins as these can be harmful when consumed in excess. Because balanced commercial foods already contain vitamins and minerals adding additional vitamins (fat soluble) and certain minerals could potentially result in toxicity. I would definitely not supplement with vitamin d or calcium – vitamin d is a fat soluble vitamin and adding calcium would likely throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and high levels of calcium are what need to be avoided for large and giant breed puppies.
Now onto discussing the Science Diet Adult Maintenance recommendation. I see many breeders recommend putting large breed puppies directly onto an adult maintenance food and this is extremely poor advice (imo) and often based on faulty logic. The reason breeders typically recommend adult foods is because adult foods tend to be lower in fat and calories than puppy foods – from the previous discussion we know that this isn’t an issue as long as portions are controlled. Feeding a puppy a food designated for adult maintenance puts the puppy at risk of not getting enough fat, protein or certain vitamins and minerals. SD is extremely low in protein – to be honest I wouldn’t even feel comfortable feeding a food that low in protein to an adult dog, let alone a growing puppy. I don’t ever recommend feeding foods with less than 30% protein (for adults or puppies) and the SD only has 24.5% protein. Also, if you go to SD’s website and read the product description for the adult maintenance food you’ll notice they state “Not recommended for puppies, pregnant or lactating dogs” – this is because dogs in their growth phase or in the stressful phase of pregnancy or lactation need high levels of protein, higher levels of fat and higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals. I personally wouldn’t ever feed or recommend any Science Diet Products. I would recommend checking out some 4 or 5 star foods with appropriate calcium levels. It’s also better if you rotate foods, don’t stick with just one – dogs need variety. I’d say at a bare minimum have three go to brands (preferably made by different companies and with different protein sources) and rotate through them. Rotational feeding has benefits including fostering a diverse population of gut flora, mitigating the short comings of feeding any one single food (no food is perfect) and providing alternatives in the event of a recall or formula change.
Satin Balls work for some dogs – just google “satin ball recipes for dogs.”
One of my dogs has difficulty keeping weight on, I never really got her to a healthy weight until I switched her to a high fat (30% – 40%) raw diet. You have to increase fat levels slowly though or else the dog will probably get diarrhea.
Thanks guys for the info! So, if I feed Orijen grain free supplemented with Blue Ridge Beef raw, which has ground green tripe in the natural mix and add plain yogurt to that, do you think that will be a good diet? Or should I supplement with more?
Hi acs379 –
This is a wonderful point to bring up! I’ll try to explain it as best I can.
The two main nutritional risks to large breed puppies are excess calcium consumption (or an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) and excess energy consumption (too many calories leading to rapid weight gain).
The reason most formulas targeted towards large breed puppies and recommended for large breed puppies tend to be lower in fat has to do with the excess energy consumption risk factor. Protein and carbohydrates both have approximately 4 kcal. per gram while fat has over twice this much at about 9 kcal. per gram. So as you can see, fat is much more calorically dense than protein or carbohydrates and, as a result, foods that are higher in fat tend to be more calorically-dense as well. It is easier for a puppy (or any dog) to consume too much energy (calories) when eating a more calorically-dense food and this would ultimately result in undesired weight gain and, as we know, undesired weight gain in large and giant breed puppies can contribute to the development of orthopedic disease. This is why when feeding a more calorically-dense, or as some would say “rich”, food it is necessary to strictly control portions.
As you can see fat – per se – is not a risk factor for developmental orthopedic disease, excess calories are. It’s very possible to feed a puppy (or any dog) a food that is higher and fat and not have the dog gain unwanted pounds – this is done through portion control. So if, for example, a puppy is eating a food with 20% fat that has 500 kcal. per cup the puppy will obviously need less of this food (to compensate for the high caloric-density) than of a food with 12% fat and 350 kcal. per cup.
All of my puppies have eaten higher fat foods. Gertie ate a combination of The Honest Kitchen and grain-free canned foods until she was 8 months old with fat levels in excess of 20%. Mabel ate a homemade raw diet from the time she came home at 8 weeks with fat levels in the 30% – 40% range. I keep track of the calories my dogs are consuming, so my pups are fed the amount of calories that keeps them in optimal body condition. This means that when eating fattier more calorie-dense meals they get a smaller portion than when they’re eating leaner less calorie-dense meals.
In summary, it’s not the fat that contributes to developmental orthopedic disease it’s the excess calories that fat provides. As long as portion sizes are monitored and the pup isn’t allowed to gain weight too quickly fat levels won’t pose an issue.
I hope that helps clear things up!
That is why it is best to space out each feeding by quite a bit. Like I feed Raw in the morning at about 5:30AM and then at around 6pm I feed kibble and I do add enzymes and probiotics. It woks for us because we spread each meal out to where the first meal is digested before we feed the 2nd meal.
The only time I had an issue is when I mixed kibble with Raw trying to do a switch over to Raw and now I know and have learned we can switch to certain Raw food with no issues but just no mixing in kibble with it.
For yeast problems, it is important to feed the lowest carb food that you can. Sugar feeds the yeast. You have to stick with a restricted carb diet for about 8 months to allow the body time to get back in balance. It’s also very important to give digestive enzymes and probiotics at this time, because of the damage that yeast does to the gut wall.
I did bathe them in some flea shampoo I got at Walmart and I haven’t found any fleas on them lately. I will look into that boric acid, thanks. I have looked up pictures and symptoms of all kinds of skin issues and can’t really find one that fits them 100%. But my Saints ears and in between her paws are definitely yeasty and my American Bulldog has some areas on his skin where the skin is peeling, but it isn’t dry and flaky. It is kind of moist and has some yellow scabby discharge. I may just end up having to take them to the vet, but if this is diet related I want to fix it myself and not be told to buy some prescription crap from the vet.
When I first brought home Mila, the pet store suggested I buy Canidae Single Grain (a 5 star brand on DFA) but once I transitioned her to grain-free she didn’t want the Canidae anymore and ate around it.
I would react just like I did when my 2 got Pancreatitis and bad bacteria when on Darwin’s I immediately get them to the Vet. The food Company would not help after your pet gets sick….Honestly they do not care and feel like you are just blamming them and or their food so they blow you off. I can almost instantly read it in their voice. Yes I agree Customer service is important but it is certainly not there anymore these days from my experience. I am still trying to find the perfect Raw for my dogs that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg to ship. I can get Vital Essentials and Primal and Natures Instinct but my problem with the Primal and Natures Instinct is the veggies and fruits they put in them. My dogs are doing good on the Rabbit from Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore but the $45 shipping is killing me. What if I feed Raw low fat meats just from the grocery and add in Steve’s mix? I just don’t want to do all kibble since I have not seen a huge improvement on it. It seems like I am fighting a never ending battle with my dogs are their diet these days. I am beginning to think it has nothing to do with food but the way man has bred dogs for the last years, The DNA code has been terribly messed up. I know dogs to this day that are fed Pedigree and thrive and have no health issues…I won’t feed cheap/grain food to my dogs and try to feed the best I can but it seriously back fires on me. I am to the point of buying my own meat and cooking the snot out of it and adding in supplements and maybe then I won’t have problems. Sorry just venting. I honestly do not know which way to turn in the food direction.
Hi everyone! Most of you know that I was feeding shadow a raw diet. After having a bout of pancreatitis, I have switched back to a high quality kibble because I got so freaked out. I don’t plan on going back to raw, but I am very interested in making a home cooked diet for him. I plan on this diet being grain free as well. I need some information about what supplements he would need. Especially calcium since he will not be consuming cooked bones. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Good Morning Sully’s Mom –
No, I’m not a vet – but I’m back in school working towards it so hopefully in a few years!
Dr. Mike has an article about the arsenic issue with rice: dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-news/arsenic-discovered-in-rice/ . Feel free to start your own thread if you would like to get others’ opinions. I really haven’t researched the issue too much as I don’t eat much rice myself and my dogs rarely get rice (or any grains) aside from germinated rice a few times a month.
I’m a big Nature’s Variety Instinct fan. When I used to feed kibble to my oldest dog it was frequently in rotation. I’ve used Nutrisca as well and feel it’s a good food. My dogs eat raw as their main diet (as mentioned) however I do frequently order samples and trial-sized bags of kibble. Even though I don’t feed kibble for meals I like to keep in the know about the best brands so I can make good recommendations. For my dogs, they usually get kibble in a kong for an after dinner treat (I layer kibble and canned pumpkin and pop it in the freezer). Naturalk9supplies.com and k9cuisine.com usually offer a wide variety of free samples and sell small trial-sized bags. Also, most companies will send you samples if you call or email them and ask.
It’s possible that Dr. Tim could be recommending Pursuit over the Grain-Free Kinesis due to calcium levels. The calcium levels in the Grain-Free Kinesis formula are a bit high for a large breed puppy. Honestly, if you’re rotating through a variety of foods that do and do not contain rice I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the arsenic. I just wouldn’t feed a food with rice long term. I also feel Dr. Tim’s is a very trustworthy company so if they’re saying that their rice tests negative for high levels of arsenic I would tend to believe them (although I would still rotate brands).
Saireah – I actually haven’t fed kibble (as a meal) in nearly three years. However, when I did feed kibble I switched to a new brand with a new protein source at the end of every bag and I rotated canned and fresh food toppers daily. Once your dog gets used to switching foods you shouldn’t need to transition gradually, you can just do it cold turkey.
Sully’s Mom – Yes – high levels of protein (preferably animal-based protein) is a very good things as dogs have a strong carnivorous bias and are designed to eat a primarily meat-based diet. When I fed kibble I never fed foods with less than 30% protein. My dogs now eat a raw diet with protein levels ranging between 45% and 55% at each meal.
Hi EHubbman –
Yes the calcium to phosphorus ratio is very important for all dogs and should be no less than 1:1 and no more than 2:1, with around 1.2:1 being considered ideal. However when it comes to large and giant breed puppies, the overall amount of calcium consumed is still very important. Even if a food had an appropriate ratio but the calcium levels were very high – say 2.2% calcium and 2% phosphorus (1.1:1) – I wouldn’t feel comfortable feeding the food to a large or giant breed puppy. All three of my dogs eat a raw diet and my most recent pup (now 11 months old) was weaned onto raw at 8 weeks old. To keep the calcium levels controlled while still keeping the calcium to phosphorus ratio balanced, fed her green tripe for around 25% of her diet. Green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (roughly 1:1) but has very low levels of each mineral (only about 0.3%).
Here is my story: I currently feed ACANA and I rotate between the different varieties and all 3 of my dogs have done wonderfully on it. But after a rare bout with fleas my Saint Bernard has terrible yeasty skin with a horrid smell and my American Bulldog is starting to show signs of what I believe to be yeast issues, too. I have no idea if the fleas caused this or if it is just a coincidence, but I want to fix it soon. From my research I know raw is the way to go for the issues my dogs are facing and just plain better for them period. I am a full time college student with one more year of school, so feeding a homemade raw diet is not possible right now, but that is my goal one day. Anyway, I was thinking of feeding 50/50 raw and kibble. I wanted to feed Tucker’s Frozen Raw in the a.m. and kibble in the p.m.. I will probably switch my dogs to Orijen kibble because I know that white potato and sweet potato will feed yeast and Orijen does not contain those ingredients while ACANA does. I also will be feeding raw meaty bones once in a while. If I feed the 50/50 split will it still be beneficial to add a supplement like Nupro Silver? The people who owned my Saint before I got her did not feed her correctly as a growing pup (39 pounds underweight when I got her at 2 years old and was fed Iams), so since she has hip issues supplementing with glucosamine is something I really want to do and I figured the other natural ingredients in Nupro Silver wouldn’t hurt. If there are other supplements out there that are better please let me know. Just from my research the Nupro will be cheaper for me to give than the NuVet supplements I am giving currently. I also know that feeding duck feet is a natural source of glucosamine and I will be giving her some of those every now and then. I am just wondering if this plan sounds like a good idea or if it is stupid. I really don’t know a whole lot about raw, but I want to learn more. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
What are your thoughts RE Phosphorus x Calcium Levels (as phosphorous is used in Calcium absorption, right?)?
I was looking into foods for my Presa (spanish mastiff, essentially), and a good friend (some vet training, very into the raw diet) noted that while protein isn’t so much of a concern aside from the fact that too much might cause loose stools, said that the Cal/Phos Ratio is what was really important. From my lookings, it seems like 1:1.2-1.4 Cal/Phos is what people aim for in larger breeds.
Your thoughts?
No, but it could speak to the dog’s stress level. I don’t mean stress in a bad way so maybe I should say excitement instead. Gut motility is affected by how “on” a dog is, so when he is out on a fun or exciting walk then everything could be passing through his large intestine faster than it can draw the fluids out. Adding a little fiber to his diet may slow down transit and even everything out, but it might not. I would try sprinkling 1/2 teaspoon of plain metamucil or a generic equivalent on his food and see if that does the trick.
So I rescued a dog 2 months ago. He, Zeus, is about 38-40 lbs and about 1 year old and DNA says mutt (1/4 Amstaff, 1/8 boxer, 1/8 bulldog, 1/8 keeshound, 3/8 mutt). Zeus was a stray and came in the shelter at 18 lbs and gained about 10 lbs in the 2 weeks he was there. When we rescued him he was being fed Science Diet and we continued for a bag and did 1 small bag of Rachael Ray Nutrish 6. He checked out as being healthy, no shedding or itching at all but some dandruff. There was a vet visit where he had dropped a few lbs so vet told us to double food but when I switched to 100% Wellness Super5Mix for puppy it was clear I had to cut back (soft poops and farting). Now I am finishing Wellness and I just bought a bag of Blue Buffalo Adult fish and sweet potato. We have had Zeus for about 2 months and now he is scratching and shedding like crazy but no dandruff. So how can I tell if the food is causing the scratching and shedding or whether it is environmental? Unfortunately, I can’t place the exact timeline of when the shedding started and dog food changes were. We were feeding too much for several weeks I would say so could that cause these problems? It seems that as I’ve improved the quality of the food, his shedding and itching have worsened. Also, how concerned do I need to be to transition dog foods as it seems to be what is recommended? I had read that quite a few dogs have difficulties with chicken? Is that really a concern because it is the easiest protein to find. I have to say that I am not interested in raw food but would consider a canned and dry combo. I would love any advice/suggestions you have.
Some people have reported that here too.
I have used coconut oil in the past and loved it but haven’t picked some up in awhile but do sprinkle some of the coconut chips in her food sometimes and also add yogurt. The freeze-dried raw I give her does have it. Where do u purchase the skinless meaty bones from? I was thinking of starting her off slowly anyway with the smaller marrow bone. I don’t mind adding more fat to her diet, she’s lean and muscular and has lost a few lbs from our nice long evening walks, so she could use it. A rewarding treat. 🙂
SanDnMila,
The necks I buy are skinless and my small dogs did not have any problems with them from the start. Neither did they with marrow bones. I normally don’t feed them low fat foods so they are used to eating normal fat and canned food seems to have more fat too. Mine started eating raw with commercial products so it was even higher in fat than the kibble. Then I introduced RMB after about a year of commercial frozen patties. I would start out with small marrow bones though maybe 1 – 2 inches versus the 4 inch ones to start but I don’t think skinless necks would hurt. Are you already adding some fat to her diet with oils like fish or coconut?
Here’s the thread with pictures:
/forums/topic/pictures-of-dogs-eating-raw-raw-meals/page/3/#post-19529
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u651/pugmomsandy/pictures%20for%20posting/ducky1_zps2c6ec569.jpg
On another forum, some people have said their dogs aren’t doing as well on Fromm as they used to.
I agree with Patty. Dry, hard kibble is hard to digest and can take several hours.
The only thing I can suggest is adding digestive enzymes with the kibble portion of her diet. The process for making kibble destroys enzymes and a lot of shepherds don’t make enough in the first place.
Hi, I have a 5.5m Shiloh. This may just be a coincidence . . . my puppy was switched from TOTW to Fromm’s and was on 100% Fromm’s for a month when I started feeding her 1 meal of raw 4 times a week.
Seemingly no problem with the raw – she loves it. But since then, she has been vomiting up her kibble. The first two times it was 2 hours after eating – and I figured she wasn’t feeling well, teething or too much excitement that day.
But it has since progressed to vomiting right after eating the kibble — and then if I give her raw for that meal, she is fine.
It is almost as if, once having raw, her body/stomach is rejecting the kibble. Is that possible? I’m also going to try a different kibble – I was thinking perhaps it is the grain in Fromm’s?
I would prefer to keep her on a partial kibble diet b/c of cost, convenience and most importantly b/c sometimes she needs to be boarded and it is difficult to find a kennel that is willing to handle a raw diet.
Any suggestions? Thanks
I have a 5.5m old shiloh shepherd. I switched her from the breeder’s food, taste of the wild, to fromm’s large breed puppy – seemingly no problems – she was on it for approx. 2 months. About 3 weeks ago I started feeding her 1 meal a day of raw – which was my plan from the start (and I know not to mix the two in the same meal). Over the past 3 weeks, perhaps a coincidence, she is vomiting frequently – but only after eating the kibble.
The first time she did it, it was a few hours after eating – I thought perhaps she wasn’t feeling good or had had too much excitement. Since then, it has happened a few times a week – usually right after eating the kibble.
If she vomits up her kibble meal (like she did at lunch today) and I give her raw for the meal – no problems.
It is almost as if, once her body experienced the raw, it doesn’t “like” the kibble. Could that be possible? Could it be that the problem is this specific kibble (fromm’s) and I should try another?
I would prefer to keep her on a partial kibble diet, not only because of the cost, but because there will be times she must be boarded and I’m not sure the kennel would be willing to handle a raw diet.
Suggestions? Advice?
Hi Idarlin –
I feel that the ideal diet is grain-free/starch free, high in animal-based protein and low in carbohydrates. This is why I personally feed my dogs a raw diet with free of grains and starches (potatoes, legumes, etc.). When it comes to kibble, a starch in some form or another (be it grains, potato, legumes, tapioca, etc.) is necessary to act as a binder. There are many that feel grain-free foods are superior to grain-inclusive foods because grains aren’t a natural part of the canine diet. However, neither are the starches used in grain-free foods – potato, legumes, tapioca, etc. Due to the fact that starch is a necessary evil when it comes to kibble I think the most important thing is to look for a food high in protein with a relatively large percentage of the protein being derived from animal sources. I think people get too caught up in grain-inclusive vs. grain-free and the industry is really playing into this – there are many new grain-free foods hitting the market that are horrible (low protein, loaded with vegetable based protein, etc. etc.) and people are paying big bucks for these foods just because the bag has the new buzzword “grain-free”. There are great grain-free foods and horrible grain-free foods and there are great grain-inclusive foods and horrible grain-inclusive foods. Concerning Innova Large Breed Puppy, it’s not a bad food by any means but it’s lower in protein than anything I’d use or recommend. It has only 24% protein, I wouldn’t use or recommend a kibble with less than 30% protein. I personally feed my crew protein levels in the 45% – 55% range.
If she’s chewing herself it could definitely be a food intolerance, but it could also be something environmental. Grains and common proteins such as chicken and beef are common causes of intolerances so you could certainly try a grain-free food with a more novel protein and see if things clear up.
I would definitely be curious to see what grain inclusive foods you’d recommend, HDM. I still remember being surprised that the Great Dane Lady was strongly opposed to grain free foods for large breed puppies until about 80% of their adult size, due to lack of feeding trials.
Here’s a quote I took from her site:
“I do not recommend as a complete diet for your puppy, any grain free or raw diets, regardless of brand, for large breed growth. Not until they are 8-10 months old or 3/4 of their normal size, just to be on the safe side. No feed trials have been done on large/giant breeds on the grain free or raw diets to date, so I will not recommend them.
We KNOW we can raise them on a quality holistic kibble with a 10% raw component, if you wish, and have no problems, but not a totally raw or grain free diet, please!!”
Has anyone tried Honest Kitchen Invigor and Sparkle and did your pets show improvement with using their products? Looking to try something different and the ingredients look great. Dogs are on a raw diet.
Wrigley is a 6 month old yellow labrador and he is our baby!! After 6 months of taking the little guy to a “traditional” Vet for his stomach issues (we got him at 7 weeks old and he had coccidia from the breeder), we were tired of the constant prescription of steroids, antibiotics and pro-biotics. This little guy has been on some sort of medication since birth. I was fed up with this approach and took him to a holistic vet. She said that his internal terrain was compromised from all the meds, and recommended a RAW diet immediately (along with four supplements- two to aide with the transition). We did a cold turkey switch from his Canidae Grain Free Lamb and Bison to Natures Variety Beef RAW patties. Along with his supplements and a homemade “veggie mash” (spinach, goji berries, cucumbers, carrots and celery) Wrigley loved his new food for the first two days. Now at day three, he won’t eat anything and has been waking up at 4am vomiting a mucus-like bile. I’m reading online that dogs can experience detox symptoms when switching to raw food, especially dogs who have been on steroids or antibiotics (like Wrigley). But he’s never missed a meal and I’m worried about him. My husband wants to take him to the traditional vet, but we know he’ll just go back to antibiotics and want to put him back on dry kibble. After researching RAW diets, I really believe in the nutritional value and have already seen an improvement in my dogs bowls. Has anyone had any experience with “detox” symptoms like this? I’ve been up since 4am with our puppy and crying hysterically! Feeding him brown rice and chicken broth now, hoping he can keep that down.
I have an 11-month old Bouvier who seems to have frequent bouts of diarrhea. He’s been checked by the vet a couple of times and nothing seems wrong with him. Because we’ve been training him with treats, I suspect there’s something there that does not agree with him. The obvious solution is to keep going with experiments, eliminating what could the the possible culprits; however, I was wondering if anyone here has been through the same problem and if they found out the exact treat that should be eliminated from their dog’s diet.
I’ve given my dog all sorts of natural “good brands” (or at least I’ve tried to buy what is deemed to be the best) and I don’t give him rawhide. MIght it be a meat-related issue?
Thanks for any input!
I use Vital Essentials freeze dried nibbletts as treats and food. Be sure to use a recipe book to make sure he is getting all the nutrients he needs. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown or “Real Foods for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Becker/Shaw and Lew Olsen has books as well.
Another option to homemade is to use a Premix – where you just add meat or meat and oil. Ex: The Honest Kitchen, Urban Wolf, Dr Harveys, Grandma Lucys. These are easy to use until you get the confidence to make your own!
I had my raw recipe book for a few months before I got the nerve to do it. Now I thinks it’s easy.
“I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements.”
There are naturally occurring probiotics in foods like kefir and yogurt and raw goat milk and tripe (which tripe also has enzymes). It really depends on how healthy or unhealthy your dog’s gut is. Has he eaten a variety of foods so that he produces a variety of natural gut flora? Or has he only eaten a few foods for a long period of time? Also yogurt usually only has a few strains of acidophilus. Some store bought probiotics have over 10 strains which I think is ideal. I have both Mercola and Dr Langers probiotics.
“How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet?”
You can give probiotics and/or digestive enzymes with meals as you are transitioning and even when he is completely on a raw diet. I still feed kibble and raw so I still use these products. You can transition him to a raw diet in various ways. You can slowly introduce raw (like frozen raw medallions or raw bites like Instinct brand has) a couple times a day as treats to see how he does or you can feed one meal of old food and the next meal of raw food. Or every 3rd meal of raw food. Depends on how his stools are! Also raw foods generally have more fat so you must take that into consideration.
“Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?”
A homemade raw diet is good for all breeds and ages (except maybe for breeds prone to pancreatitis) and he can be fed nothing but raw. You can freeze in small batches and pull out what you need for 2 to 3 days worth. For vacation, if you’re taking your dog you might be interested in freeze dried raw as it is shelf stable. Some examples are Stella and Chewy’s, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Vital Essentials, Nutrisca and Primal. I wouldn’t give him marrow bones in the beginning as they are just fat.
Yes, he is an inactive dog. After you start feeding, be sure to weigh and/or monitor “body condition score” so that he is an ideal “shape”. My dogs are heavy but are still of good body condition for their breed. There a several “body condition score” photos you can see online.
SO. Thanks to HDM, it has come to my attention that making my own raw food for my Louie (10-pound Silky terrier) is actually more cost-effective than buying a high-quality kibble and is obviously much more healthy for my baby.
There are a lot of threads here, obviously, devoted to raw food recipes and diets. Currently my boy is on Earthborn Hollistic Primitive Natural. He’s not doing well on it. I had been feeding him a combination of that and the Earthborn Hollistic tubs (the lamb-based ones), but took those out to see if they were the cause of his upset. I think not. The tubs are expensive and I just have come to the conclusion that I’d rather he be on a raw diet. But, just like everything else, this task of changing his diet (yet again) is so daunting and I am so terrified and essentially stupid and ignorant and I really need you DFA Gods’ help!
I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements. How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet? Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?
My boy is essentially inactive. We go on walks every day and he gets very excited and runs around the house whether we’re coming home for work or from taking the trash out, but then he calms down and takes a nap. I heard 2% of his body weight for an inactive dog is what I should be feeding him. Is this correct? Does he fit the description of an inactive dog? What is the definition of an inactive dog?
There is so much misinformation out there! So many threads to read through, so much confusion! He’s my first dog and I want to do right by him, he deserves the best.
I always do these posts and I’m always very anxious about finding out how best to serve my canine baby because I know how important diet is, and I want him to have those perfect, firm stools and not feel lousy.
I guess I’m just being somewhat lazy to ask for a guide as to how to do this perfectly. I know it’s going to take some time and a lot of effort!
Response #2:
Hi marty0203 –
Calcium and phosphorus levels really only affect the joint health of large and giant breed dogs during the growth phase. By the time a large or giant breed dog reaches two years of age it is either dysplastic or not dysplastic. For all dogs, calcium and phosphorus levels should be in balance with one another (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is really only a concern for those making homemade food, balanced commercial foods will have a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus.
I strongly feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is best for most dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <20% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food I would search for one with no less than 30% protein.
I feel it’s important to feed a variety of foods. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched to a new brand at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding at least 3 quality foods (preferable different brands with different protein sources) and switching every so often. If you can mix in canned or fresh food occasionally this is great too and canned and fresh foods are much more species-appropriate than dry food. Patty had a wonderful suggestion with recommending you check out online retailers. I live in a small area with a limited selection of quality pet products as well and, for this reason, do the majority of my shopping online. In addition to the sites she suggested, some others you may want to check out are wag.com, doggiefood.com and naturalk9supplies.com.
Some supplements that promote joint health are glucosmaine, chondroitin, MSM, esterified fatty acids (such as cetyl myristoleate) and hyaluronic acid. Some who foods supplements that promote joint health are sea cucumber, green lipped mussel, eggshell membrane, shark cartilage and velvet antler. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, gullet and chicken feet) and naturally rich in joint health promoting compounds such as chondroitin. Turmeric, tart cherry, boswellia, yucca, white willow, bromelian and high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.) all help to manage pain and inflammation. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic issues, a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement would be fine for maintenance. If your dogs have any symptoms of pain and inflammation you may want to consider a combination of some of the joint health supplements listed in addition to one of the natural anti-inflammatories.
Hi Marty –
Calcium and phosphorus levels are really only a concern for joint health during the growth phase. Once large/giant breed dogs reach two years of age their joints are fully developed and at this point they’re either dysplastic or not dysplastic. Calcium and phosphorus levels obviously need to be in balance with each other (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is true for all dogs, not just large/giant breeds, and isn’t a concern as long as you’re feeding a balanced commercial food (where balancing C:P ratios come into play are with homemade diets). I personally feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is healthiest and most species-appropriate for healthy dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <15% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food, I would search for one with no less than 30% protein. I also would not limit yourself to only one brand – variety is important. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched brands and protein sources at the end of every bag and I added different canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding a minimum of three foods your dogs can eat (preferably different brands with different protein sources). Patty had a wonderful suggestion with online ordering if selection is limited where you live – some other sites that have a big selection and offer free shipping in addition to the two she posted are Wag.com, Doggiefood.com and NaturalK9Supplies.com. There are several supplements you can give your dogs that help to promote joint health and/or have anti-inflammatory properties. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic conditions or arthritis a basic glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM supplement would be fine to start off with. Some other supplements good for joint maintenance are hyaluronic acid and esterfied fatty acids (like cetyl myristoleate). Some whole food supplements that are beneficial for the joints are eggshell membrane, velvet elk antler, sea cucumber, green lipped mussel and shark cartilage. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, chicken feet and gullets) are very rich in naturally occurring chondroitin. For dogs experiencing pain/arthritis some natural anti-inflammatories include high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.), turmeric, boswellia, tart cherry, yucca, bromelian and white willow. Generally human supplements are cheaper and higher quality than supplements marketed to dogs, adjust the dosage accordingly (a good rule of thumb is a 25 lb. dog would get about 1/4 of the recommended human dose, 1/2 the human dose for a 50 lb. dog, 3/4 the human dose for a 75 lb. dog and full human dose for dogs >100 lbs.). Also – as you may already know – the most important factor to maintaining healthy joints and staving off arthritis in large and giant breed dogs is maintaining a healthy body weight, it’s very important that large/giant breeds don’t become overweight as this adds a lot of stress to the joints.
The oatmeal, rice, and pasta may be feeding the yeast in his ears. That’s why all the different kibbles didn’t work either as they are high in carbs too.
If you are going to home cook, you should invest in a couple books on preparing balanced meals for dogs. Steve Brown has “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” It isn’t even a very big book, but it is packed with good info for understanding how to fix your dogs food. It was written primarily for people interested in feeding raw, but if you want to cook the meat then just make sure you use boneless meat and then add back 800-1000mg of calcium per lbs of meat. Cook the meat about as rare as you can stand. Raw meat is better, but I can understand wanting to kill off any contaminants on the surface.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by
theBCnut.
hi guys i am new to the site…debating raw…we have three hunting dogs (lab, english and german pointers ) i have been doing a cooked diet for them to date as my Mr is a hunter and we use game for the dogs. i have cooked because i don’t know the parasite status of the animals. i have been looking through the recipes (thank you everyone for posting tis site is wonderful :)….does any one have info or links to if i want to cook instead of raw? and maybe know how cooked would compare to raw? i do supplement weekly with a raw meal of ground bone to get that in but i am still fairly new to this so need to make sure my babies are getting all they need.
thanks 🙂
If you want to make meat organ grinds a larger portion of your dogs’ diet without balancing the meal with whole foods Sandy recently made me aware of a supplement designed to balanced meat/organ/bone only diets, might be worth checking out.
http://www.youngagainpetfood.com/10browse.asp?category=raws&ProductCode=92200
Raw ground rabbit bones and organs with spirugreen definitely isn’t a balanced diet on its own, but it will probably be fine as long as you continue to feed at least one meal of kibble daily.
Hi lauriesten –
The himalayan salt is to add some sodium – I prefer using himalyan or sea salt over regular table sale as these salts also provide some trace nutrients. Sodium is actually an essential mineral, many people know that it’s harmful in excess but it’s also harmful to be deficient and most homemade diets are rather low in sodium. I order the fruit concentrate capsules from Swanson’s Vitamins sold under “Super Concentrated Multi Fruit Concentrate.” Fresh fruit could definitely be utilized and I occasionally do add fresh fruit, although I’ve found that this supplement provides my dogs with some of the antioxidant benefits of fresh fruit without as much of the carbohydrates and sugars.
At first, you may have to make a gradual switch, but as your dog gets used to the process and his gut becomes healthier, you won’t have to anymore. I used to have to take a month to transition with one of my dogs, now I just switch.
There is no one way to do a rotational diet. Some people switch bag to bag, some weekly, and some, like me, every meal. I have multiple dogs and go through a bag fairly quickly so I started having four bags open at once and as one gets empty I rotate in something else. I also feed some raw and change that every day too.
Have to respectfully disagree, as Pudge Bear had way more energy after getting his annual cut. But Bongo doesn’t need a cut, his fur is just normal thickness & the heat doesn’t slow him down. So for me, it’s situational.situated
Double coated dogs are meant to have their fur to protect them from the sun. Shaving their fur off just exposes them to other things. After shaving a double coated dog several time you will notice his fur will not ever grow back properly. I try to tell people ahead of time at work but they never listen and feel they should shave the dog due to him or her walking around panting constantly but that is normal and how dogs release heat. shedding is also the reason why people do it so why not get a non shedding breed and leave dogs how mother nature intended them to be since they were born like that?
Hi Mylo,
You said he’s not outside much, but does he swim at all? My last dog, Pudge Bear a golden, suffered thru 3 summers of hot spots. Once he got his summer puppy cut he never got another hot spot. His undercoat took so long to dry that it resulted in hot spots. My current golden Bongo at 3 just got his 1st hot spot; his coat isn’t as thick so no summer cut yet.
Hi HDM
That sounds like as good an explaination as any I have heard for what I have seen, I just don’t know how they could “know for sure” and apparently they don’t. Whatever the mechanism is, I believe fasting works and that it is as good for us as our dogs. Like everything else in a biological system, I don’t think we will ever know all the whys and wherefores, but we can know what works.
Hi Patty –
A study on fasting was conducted at the National Institute of Aging. The study was done on mice – the mice were fed nothing every other day and allowed to eat a much as they wanted on opposite days. The study concluded: “We think what happens is going without food imposes a mild stress on the cells, and cells respond by increasing their ability to cope with more severe stress.”
Whew! 🙂 Thank you so much!! I will be introducing more organ meat. Probably might get an organ grind from Hare Today. Just taking it slow though introducing that stuff. I’m also phasing out the Deli Fresh completely, because I have a feeling that might be causing Bailey’s ear problems, not sure though. & I watch her stools like a hawk, lol! & I have been very happy with them. I was just curious if I was doing everything else right.
Thanks so much, again, for all your help! 🙂
2 months, 1 week ago
