[Aracely M]

I have a minuature Poodle with Colitis, IBS and all possible due to his low acid stoamch production. After years on a Vegetable diet he is now low on nutrients. I. Change to mostly raw foods, lamb, veggies and early mornings fruits. The problem now is Costipation to the point of Colitis episodes and bacterial infection. I lived in Honduras, Central America, no good Dog food available here so, any ideas on what can help to help him eliminating the protein and veggie waste??
His digetion has gotten better using Apple Cider Vinegar.

[Greg F]

Virginia
It is good to see your experience unlike many supports my plan of feeding. I think you probably have more options than I do since we need a novel protein. If your current diet stops working or you want more protein two foods I’ve use that may work are THK Zeal and Natures Variety Instinct Raw Boost Healty Weight. Our other two Havanese are on NV and have excellent weight, energy and stools. It has 34% protein and 12 % fat which should be good for pancreatic issues.
The Zeal is 35% protein and only 8.5 % fat while giving you the benefits of more moisture and less proscessing than kibble. Zeal worked well with the IBD dog for sometime until we had a flare up. I think the fish was not a novel enough protein as venison or duck as needed for IBD.

[Jenn H]

Couldn’t be happier to hear such great news!
Perhaps you should get a definitive diagnosis on the lymphoma. Diet can be helpful for certain cancers.
When 2 of my dogs had cancer I used a holistic vet as well as my conventional vet & oncologists. He was a tremendous asset to their care & quality of life.
I love so much of Dr. Becker’s advice, but I do get very aggravated by her constant “species appropriate diet” preaching. She has a huge agenda in regards to that. It seems like she thinks it’s a cure all. Not all dogs do well on raw diets. Any evidence of thriving is anecdotal not scientific.
Just be aware of anyone pushing their products/agenda when seeking medical help. This is not to say they don’t work. It just may be sales is more of a priority than your individual dog’s needs.
I wish your dog has continued good health. And you have many great years with her.

[Greg F]

Well I think everyone’s prayers worked. After 2 days in the hospital and no positive signs we waited for the vets 10 am call knowing we gave it all and we prepared ourself so for putting an end to her mistery. Then the vet said she turned the corner and we should give her another 2 days in their care and would come home Tuesday. She is down to 8 1/2 lbs from a normal weight of 11. After 2 days she is eating, firm stools and perky.
We are giving her Hills D/D duck, Primal raw venison cooked, sweet potatoes, pumpkin and a little cottage on top at first to eat the food.
We may still be dealing with lymphoma in addition to IBD and PLE and won’t be doing additional testing and chemo since it won’t buy much time.
I’m considering a consultation with Dr Becker or buying her home recipe book. In the near future I think we will go with fresh venison (low fat) cooked and THK base. This way it is safe and should give her a complete novel high protein, low fat low carb diet with an option to go to an all home cooked meal. Not sure on the supplements.
Thanks for all your thoughts and help.

[Carlene]

I apologize for yet another lengthy post but it’s so interesting that many of our stories read the same…

I’ve been dealing with the gulpy air licks since my pit bull was around 1.5 years old. He is 6.5 now. He will gulp, air lick, hard swallow, stare at me like “help me!”, he grinds his teeth, he will vomit hand size piles of white foamy bile, sometimes dingy yellowish bile, eat grass, eat more grass, throw that up and then being exhausted, he will sleep for hours. If I’m at work while an episode happened, he will resort to carpet, socks, wicker baskets, whatever he could get in his mouth. In the early days, this happened maybe a couple of times every six months but I wasn’t too concerned. I mean we all occasionally get sick, right? But for the first couple of years, I did casually mention it to my vet at bi-annual appts and even joked about renaming him Stan (the South Park character who pukes all the time). Something else maybe worth mentioning is sometimes I would get home from work after being gone for 10 hours or so and he would puke his kibble. It was still in perfect little round pieces, just like it went in, except it’s wet. So ZERO digestion in 10 hours for whatever that’s worth. His episodes began to increase in both frequency and severity about 3 years ago. No rhyme or reason. No patterns. Nothing I have been able to pinpoint. The episodes are almost a daily occurrence now. I mention to friends “he had a good day today” instead of a bad day because they are so frequent. You can see it in his eyes, his head is down, he’s tired, his eyes are red, he’s drooly, he stretches his neck, and he’s very, very clingy. I honestly don’t even remember what the first treatment protocols were or what order we went in. But here are some of the things we’ve tried:

-Rubbing Trachea/Throat, Singing a song, Going for a walk. Basically distractions – works sometimes.
-Canned organic pumpkin or Plain Greek Yogurt to settle the tummy during an episode – would work sometimes
-Pepcid for acid reflux – seemed to work for a while
-Probiotics
-Elevated Food Bowl
-Pepcid with Carafate Slurries each morning and evening to coat the tummy before meals – maybe worked?
-Metronidazole/Amoxicillin combo for suspected Helicobacter Pylori – tested negative
-Complete Blood Panel
-Barium swallow with Xrays to examine the esophagus and rule out Megaesophagus – all clear
-Daily Prilosec OTC 20mg – works sometimes.
-Dry Kibble Changes – all over the map but all No Corn, Soy or Wheat – settled on Nutrisource Chicken for approx. 2 years –
-Canned food – makes it worse-
-No dry kibble for 6 months – I cooked for him. Chicken, Veggies, Rice. Worked well at first, and got worse toward the end of the 6 month period.
-Animal Communicator – don’t laugh. I was very skeptical too. But this lady I do not know told me that his tummy had been sick for a really long time and that he was tired. She also told me that his body required a warm protein rather than a cool protein. I switched him from Nutrisource Chicken (cold) to Nutrisource Lamb (warm). She also told me to try essential oils. She didn’t say what kind, she said to let him smell the unopened containers and he would be interested in the one his body needed, if he needed one at all. I met with an essential oils expert, did just what she said and let him do the picking. We went vial after vial while he would sniff and turn his head over & over again. Until he sniffed…and he didn’t turn away. He sniffed again. He sniffed all around that vial like I was holding a piece of meat. He nudged my hand. More like a shove than a nudge really. I turned the vial around to see what it was expecting something food related but it wasn’t, it was something called Digize. Digize is:“a dietary supplement that provides valuable aid for digestive concerns and helps support a healthy digestive system. Benefits and Uses: eases heartburn, calms upset stomach, alleviates diarrhea, minimizes bloating, comforts sickness associated with pregnancy, reduces discomfort while travelling, overcomes constipation, improves digestive function, eases acidity in body, and rids body of parasites.” Well I’ll be darned.
-Daily Prilosec/Carafate/Reglan regimen
-And Cerenia. This stuff works beautifully and at $15 per dose, is more expensive than pure gold.

I know I’ve forgotten a few things we tried, but we have tried a lot. In December 2015 he had had several pretty rough days in a row. I’d gotten home from work one eve and knew he wasn’t feeling well. I heard something weird, looked down at him standing in the kitchen and I see his teeth chattering, his body is stiff as a board, and he has this hard stare, like no one is in there. It was the weirdest thing that only lasted maybe 30 seconds, but it definitely happened. After it was over, it took him a good while to get his bearings back. He was so wobbly and confused. I texted my vet and she replied with “He’s just had a Focal Seizure.” I wonder if that’s somehow related to his gulpy air lick? Anyhow, because December was so bad for him I finally bit the money bullet and scheduled his Endoscopy, Biopsies, and Exploratory GI Surgery January 11th 2016. First off I want to say that I’ve done a TON of research too. I was convinced he had esophageal erosion, burns from the severe acid reflux, or big angry ulcers all over the lining of his stomach. Or stomach cancer. Yeah, that. So the results of the Endoscopy? The doc gives me a rundown. The esophagus looks perfect. The stomach looks perfect. Nothing in there at all (I did kind of expect a toy or something). The pyloris spincter looks good. The duodenum looks good, and the very beginning of the small intestine looks good. He said there doesn’t seem to be bile backing up into the stomach at all. So. Inconclusive. I couldn’t decide if that was good or bad news. I do know that I REALLY need an answer though.

Since the surgery, I’ve had him on a regimen of Prilosec/Carafate/Reglan but it seems like he was sicker after the surgery than before. Like the scope irritated something, I don’t know. Results of the biopsies came back and they confirmed IBD, which we already knew. Doc says more testing is needed with the next being for something called Myasthenia Gravis, a nerve/muscle disorder. We haven’t done this test yet, but it is our next medical step. Anyway, after doing a bunch more research and with Doc’s blessing of course, last Wednesday February 10th I changed his food again to a limited ingredient novel protein, Zignature Kangaroo. I took away ALL the treats too. Treats are now Kangaroo kibble. I also went to feeding him 3 small meals a day on as consistent of a schedule as I can. If his tummy is empty, he gets gulpy licky. If his tummy is too full, he pukes. So day 1 on the Kangaroo, Wednesday, was a good day. Thursday was a good day. Friday was a good day. Saturday I discontinued the Carafate and Reglan but continuing the Prilosec. So far the good days have continued. Today is day 8 of “a good day”. I hope this lasts and I want to be positive, but I know the odds are not in our favor. Just one more theory, one more trial, grasping at more straws. I’ll definitey be looking more into the magnesium deficiency and Bilious Vomiting Syndrome that were mentioned earlier in the thread. At some point we have got to figure this out. Seems like none of us are giving up so I’d say we have a pretty good chance.

*One word of warning about the Kangaroo. It stinks. It makes his breath stink, his poops are dense and alfalfa’ish smelling, and it digests quicker than other kibbles. And did I mention it stinks? Wish us luck and thank you for all your comments, for reading, and caring…

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Carlene.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Carlene.

[losul]

Chloe, I agree mostly with ed p. I think it’s really good advice. It’s hard to calculate an all homemade diet for pups for all their needs. I feed alot of homemade for my adult for several years, but I still couldn’t feel confident or comfortable doing it for a pup, at least not without going back to the books and even then probably not for 100% of the diet. It doesn’t have to be kibble necessarily, but commercial balanced quality kibble and/or canned and/or commercial raw. You can always start to add a small amount of homemade to his diet, only keep small enough that it doesn’t throw off the balance. I’m not familiar with some of the meats you have either.

Is he a large breed? If so, proper balance is even more so important.

[Kathy N]

The company called OC Raw…DOES NOT use any gullets or tracheas or any form of the thyroid tissues in any of their meat sources !! If any one has any questions just email or call Oliva Hudson ..of OC Raw…I am very happy with the results of their raw diets so far…it is important to know what is in the meat trims,the raw companies are getting from the suppliers..if a company can’t verify this ..I won’t use them….I trust OC Raw..and also trust North West Naturals..who also verified they use nothing with thyroid tissue attached either….in their raw meats….

[Cannoli]

Since I am new to raw been only doing it for 4 months I would advise that you feed your dog a high quality kibble diet until they are 1 year old. That way there is no nutritional deficiency impact

I had concerns about the nutritional requirements for pups and hence I waited until my pup was 1 year old and while I waited for my pup to be 1 year old I did plenty of research.

If you are concerned this is what I would do.

[Anonymous]

Thanks! I’ve heard of Grandma Lucy’s I will check it out. And then onto the introducing part. And just save the rabbit for treats as she had no problem with rabbit that way before. I thought about venison, but was leary because the internist vet did not recommend that one 3 years ago and I had previously feed that to my first Aussie when I found out she had Cushing’s Disease and then switched to a raw diet

I was devastated when I found out Chewy’s could not send my order of Kanagroo because I lived in California. I hadn’t heard it had been banned and learned it had previously been banned.

Thank you again the suggestion!!!

JMP

[Shawna]

Hi Bev A,

I’m soooooo glad to hear that Bitty is feeling better!!!

Low albumin could be an indicator that she’s not getting enough protein and also a symptom of kidney failure. Inflammation is also a cause. High glubulin is caused by inflammation as well so that would be my guess as to the cause of both. Did your vet test for an infection? The teeth may have caused an infection. That’s what happened to Audrey. A food sensitivity can also cause this sort of inflammation. My best guess, if she doesn’t have an infection, is that one of the foods she is eating has an ingredient in it that she is reacting to. If you are feeding the kibbled KD then I would try one of the canned foods. If she is eating one of the canned foods then I would try another — they now have the original egg product but also have two stew products – one with beef and one with chicken. I would eliminate the other two foods for a few weeks at least unless she won’t eat without them. If you have a source for raw green tripe I would try mixing that in with the SD to entice her to eat.

Although the supplements are of supreme quality, it could be something in them that she is reacting to as well. Did you notice any negative reactions shortly after they were started. Audrey, as an example, was allergic to beef bone. I was giving her Standard Process Catalyn (a multi vitamin) which had beef bone in it — before I knew she was allergic. I personally would also contact Standard Process and talk with one of their vet techs or the vet on staff. Additionally, if you have access to a good holistic vet it might not hurt to have a consult with him/her.

If you think that the inflammation could be diet related and you cant figure it out with elimination, I would consider using a product made by Glacier Peak Holistics that can help identify sensitivities. Not everyone here on DFA agrees that the test is worth the $85.00 cost but myself and many friends have used it with great success.

I’m very happy that Bitty is feeling better but bummed for you both that this has cropped up… 🙁

Hugs to you and little Bitty, Bev!!!!!!

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Shawna.

[Kathy N]

Becca
Were you feeding raw diets .you made yourself or were you buying commercial raw dog food diets? and if it was commercial raw,which ones were you using??? I also raw feed,but buy from North West Naturals, Natures Variety..OC.. .Primal…..they do not use gullets or tracheas..so they say,but this scares me…about raw feeding also……

[Jenn H]

I’m so sorry to hear your Maddie is in hospital. I hope something works for her soon and forever. It’s the worst when they can’t figure out what exactly is wrong.
At first they thought my girl’s problem was acute pancreatitis. Then figured inflammed bowel from the powerful antibiotic to treat Lyme. She had every imaginable blood test and a lot of x-rays & ultrasounds, sub-q fluids (she tends to stop drinking). Went on that ride twice. And other things in between.
This last time I took her to a specialist referred to by the emergency hospital. It was him who said to stop all raw & blah blah blah. Her numbers went back to normal with all his suggestions.
I did have another dog a long time ago that had IBD/IBS. At the beginning he was on Prednisone and Imodium. Then weened off both. Tweaked his diet and he never had a really bad episode again. When symptoms did start he was given a much smaller dose of steroid, bland diet for a few days and he was fine again.
My point is that if your usual vet isn’t getting you anywhere, then have another take a look. Sometimes a fresh set of eyes sees something else. This last ultrasound he looked at every single organ very carefully and didn’t blame everything on the Lyme.

Make sure when she gets home you put a lot of water in her meals. Dehydration makes things so much worse and it helps to keep things going thru the gut.

If it means taking meds and/or supplements for life that’s a small price to pay for her being otherwise healthy.

I truly hope you get answers very soon and she gets well. It’s heart wrenching to see them suffering and uncomfortable and not being able to do anything.

Please keep us in the loop. Best of luck. She’s lucky to have a person like you.

[Greg F]

Jenn
Thanks for the reply. We admitted Maddie today around 2:00 to give her the best chance for recovery and hope the new drugs start working. She is on IV, feeding tube and pain meds. They are redoing the ultrasound to check out the pancreas and see if there are other diseases ongoing. In 2-3 days we will evaluate and make some decisions.
The diet you mentioned makes sense to me. In fact I was just checking out the Wysong Epigen kibble for the high protein low carb content.
I think if she makes it past this I will go all out and start making a home food that is an approved balanced recipe. I believe a dog in Maddies health cannot tolerate any problems that commercial dog food can have. Raw is good for many dogs but you can’t take the chance with dogs in Maddies condition.
An interesting comment from the new vet: some dogs with IBD respond to a diet change and the others will always be on medication.

[Jenn H]

Jeffery T had some good advice.
My dog has also been experiencing symptoms of IBD and pancreatitis off & on for the past yr.
After much research and different gets & specialists I have it pretty under control (knock wood).
The most recent specialist was adamant about not giving her any raw meat or goat milk. She was put on a probiotic, pumpkin, bland diet, etc.
It’s been 2 months w/o relapse so I’m thinking of getting her off the prescription can food and trying something else. She gets very little kibble. Not even 1 cup/day.
She continues to get 30 mg Pepcid 2x/day and 2 Tbsp pumpkin for breakfast.

My problem with changing her diet is that low fat is recommended and she’s so active. Keeping weight on her can be tough.

I’m told to try a food with highest protein possible, low carbs and 10% fat on DRY MATTER BASIS (cans seems to be working better for her). Because she’s a GSD that’s kind of low as they really should have about 19% fat. So we’ll see.

The lower the meat protein, the more carbs there will be in the food. The source of the carbs can be difficult on the GI.

The kibble she gets now is Wysong And then
Her wet food is i/d. Usually turkey. Sometimes the stew (not her favorite) or chicken (that’s low fat).
I’m about to try Wysong Epigen cans.

Basically I have had success so far by cutting out raw animal products, probios, pumpkin and lower fat & carbs.

You may find adding enzymes to be helpful also. And maybe even try a novel protein. (If you choose fish be certain no one uses Ethoxyquin as a preservative.)

Remember to make sure the makers of your supplements aren’t sourcing anything from China.

Good luck to you.

[Daisy D]

Hi RebeccaRose, and Susan, thank you both for sharing your experiences. I came across this post while doing my own research into what is happening with my own dog. My almost-7-year-old female French Bulldog has always been what I would describe as a sicky dog. She has always regurgitated water if she drinks too fast, too much – and would often regurgitate food too.

I tried her on a RAW diet which didn’t suit her, she would regurgitate after every meal. We settled on Ziwipeak lamb which suited her well for years. November last year her vomiting and regurgitating increased to daily episodes, along with some mild exercise intolerance, and also increased coughing.

She’s always had a wet cough on and off since I got her aged 1. Vets did all sorts of tests and couldn’t find out what it was from, it lead to her having soft palette surgery and her tonsils out, she’s also been on various antihistamines and more recently appoquel for allergies, assuming it’s from allergies.

I’m wondering if she’s actually had this GERD problem the whole time. My vets suspected GERD last November as Roxy’s had vomited bile unexpectedly (and through her nose) on three occasions in the morning, a few weeks apart. They put her on Zantac and metronidazole but she unfortunately got an eye ulcer NYE which caused her lots of pain and stress, (she’s highly vet phobic).

IT seemed like nothing was working, she would be lethargic, and clearly feeling sick every day – often running about desperately wanting to eat grass. Squeely sounding stomach, not eating etc. Sometimes would vomit, but mostly the hard gulping coughing and gagging – when it was really bad she would shake for around 6 hours at a time.

The vet did an abdominal ultra sound, everything was clear apart from slightly enlarged spleen (they say common with the sedatives). She was also clear for a fecal test.

We haven’t done blood tests as my vet thinks they would be a waste of money – should we consider this? Everything is telling me she will need the endoscopy and biopsies, but am so worried to put her under general anesthetic being a brachycephalic breed and vet phobic to the point it makes her ill.

Two weeks ago the vet prescribed Omeprazole and she was doing great on it, got her appetite back and was waggy again. They kept her on the metronidazole too while her eye ulcer was healing so as not to change too much as once. But this finished on Friday. On Sunday she relapsed and spent the whole day and night shaking, feeling awful.

She picked up the next day and was back to her ‘almost’ usual self, but then today she woke up and I knew she was going to be ill – she’s been shaking and panting since this morning, but is just sleeping quietly now.

MY vet is great, but only works three half days a week at the practice, meaning I sometimes have to wait days to get her on the phone. Today I spoke over the phone to a difference vet who would like to put her back on the metronidazole as it’s the only thing that’s changed since she was doing OK. I pick it up later. Roxy has always been a really anxious dog, and her separation anxiety has got worse since she’s been sick – and i’m sure when she’s been under stress it’s making the nausea worse too.

I’m very aware that both metronidazole and omeprazole are not great long-term options, should I be pushing for a referral for the endoscopy?

[El]

Hi Ana A

“Fresh” to me is whole foods either fed raw or lightly cooked. The 2 below are complete diets for Adult Dogs, and because they DON’T contain bone they can be lightly cooked.

/dog-food-reviews/freshpet-vital-raw-patties/
/dog-food-reviews/freshpet-vital-raw-rolled/

For transitioning from Kibble or canned to raw, I would lightly cook the raw to eliminate some of the possible bacteria, and to slowly accustom your dog’s digestive system to the new diet. I would also transition very slowly. Start with 10% of lightly cooked raw and go up by 10% every third day. Repeat when transitioning from lightly cooked to fully raw. It’s slow, but it’s worth it. A high potency multi-strain probiotic along with a prebiotic will help in these transitions.

Once you are feeding fully raw for a couple of months with no problems, you can start looking at ALL raw foods, including those with bones. The transition periods from one raw food to another can usually be done in a couple of days, and some are able to switch raw foods with no transition at all.

If you would like to learn more about raw feeding along with recipes for preparing food at home, I recommend this book;

Good Luck, and feel free to ask away 😉

[Bobby dog]

Hi Huskypup:
I agree with Pitlove and C4D, finding another store might be a good idea.

Out of all the ACVN/PhD nutritionist sites I visit I only remember one that will formulate a raw diet, Dr. Susan Lauten of Pet Nutrition Consulting; there are probably others. However, I don’t find that service listed on her site any longer. Under partial list of services offered they do list they will analyze your current raw diet. Maybe try contacting them to see if they will formulate a raw diet.
http://petnutritionconsulting.com/

It looks like Dr. Lauten has been consulting for Fresh Choice Complete raw food company over the last year. Looks like a fairly new company:
http://www.freshchoicecomplete.com/index.html

You can find nutritionists at most Vet schools and here is the ACVN diplomat directory. For some reason the link won’t post so I am editing the address:
http://www dot acvn dot org/directory/

Just Food For Dogs makes fresh meals delivered to your house and they also have kits for making fresh food:
http://justfoodfordogs.com/

Check out Weruva Human Style (not Kobe/Kurobuta) and Tiki Dog canned foods. They both have pictures on their sites of their recipes. They look just like shredded chicken or fish you would eat.
http://www.tikipets.com/tiki-dog/
http://www.weruva.com/dog-cuisine-human-style.php

[C4D]

Hi September D,

I’ve owned a lot of dogs over the years. I’ve never fed a senior dog food to them. Senior dog food is really just a marketing ploy. My large breed dogs live well over their expiration date. The most important thing is to watch that they don’t gain too much weight, get exercise on a daily basis, and address any health issues they might have as they age or due to injuries they have sustained. I also get yearly checkups and do blood panels on a regular basis. That let’s you know if there are any issues that might need addressing. My vet once said to walk my dogs for as long as they could walk. I’ve always done that. I’m not saying this is a miracle cure, but dogs need exercise and they need a job. That’s their job and they love it. I have a senior right now, 11 yo Lab along with other older adult dogs, but if you didn’t know her age, you wouldn’t think she was that old. She has bad knees too, but she walks briskly almost 2 miles daily and runs the yard after everything she sees. She does get supplements (fish oil, joint care) and I am very careful about her diet to keep her lean. I also feed her a combination of kibble, canned and fresh/raw food daily. So, I’ll get off my soap box now. Best of luck with your pup!

[Jim G]

I am really trying to like Life’s Abundance dog food but have a problem. My 4 month old lab has been on it since I picked her up from the breeder. Her stools have always been loose, and at times, she has a hard time holding it in. I switched started giving her cooked chicken and rice. Stools were perfect and no accidents. I slowly reintroduced Life’s Abundance and the loose, mucusy stools started again. I have heard that a raw diet could be the way to go, but I am on a budget. Has anyone’s dog had loose stools with Life’s Abundance and if so, were you able to find a quality dry food that worked.

I’m not knocking Life’s Abundance. I’m sure it is great for some dogs, just not mine.

Thank you.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Lauren,

I think I’d take a look at doing a true elimination diet if I were you.

Since you’ve been working with your vet on identifying your pup’s food sensitivities, you could talk to them about it and get your instructions from them. Essentially, you choose a single protein and a single starch that your dog hasn’t eaten before and feed only that. After you’re dog’s condition has settled down, you slowly introduce other ingredients, one at a time. If he reacts, you withdraw the food and continue with your single starch and protein. If not done properly, you’ll end up with inaccurate results. If done properly, it’s the gold standard for identifying food sensitivities / allergies.

Some folks will use raw or cooked foods, prepared at home. Others will choose prescription foods from the vet. Either way, it’s not forever, but it’ll help you get some answers.

With my food sensitive dog, I have better luck with Nature’s Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Diets.

Good luck! I know how frustrating it can be!

[losul]

Interesting theory on the palatibilty enhancers, Dr Carol.

I don’t think this is the one that Aimee referenced, but here is a survey/study that could give insight.

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/boze412010.pdf

At least 50% of my dogs diet is homemade raw, with limited (35%) kibble, but I have had no experience with coprophagia so couldn’t help there.

I found in the the following article in Can Vet, that seems to be relative to what you have asked.

“The dog should be fed a consistent, good quality
diet, high in fat and protein and low in carbohydrate,
with no treats or scraps. Diets high in carbohydrate
tend to enhance the drive to eat stool. The dry food
component of the diet should be reduced and replaced
with a high protein food. Although dry food is generally
a good diet, it has been shown clinically that the
above diet change will often lessen the drive to eat
stool. The addition of vegetable oil (increased slowly
over 7 days, to 15 mL/4.5 kg of body weight/day) is
also helpful. Sufficient food should be given twice
daily, on a regular schedule. Adding the fat and feeding
twice a day helps suppress the appetite for a longer
period, reducing this particular stimulus for stool
eating. Often, a diet change, maintained for 4-8 weeks,
may be all that is required to stop the behavior, in conjunction
with the decreasing strength of the drive as
the animal ages.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1680886/pdf/canvetj00575-0079.pdf

[Susan]

Hi Greg, my boy was diagnosed with IBD thru biopsies 2013, I contacted a Naturopath thru email first to see if she knew anything about IBD & she did, so I booked a consultation over phone she rings you or does Skype for overseas….
Here’s her link her “Maintenance Diet” http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html
I told her everything about Patches health, she said it sounds like Patches Pancreas isn’t doing its job & working properly & we need to fix Patches gut……
Jacqueline put Patch on the home made raw “Maintenance Diet” she would not let me buy any of those premade raw diets she said, she has seen them being made & they are not good for dogs especially if they have any health problems especially IBD…..
I had to pick 2 proteins, I picked Kangaroo mince & Chicken breast, 2-4 veggies, I picked, broccoli, celery, carrot & 1-2 fruits I pick apple, all veggies & fruit must be washed & peeled then cut & put thru a blender, for breakfast I feed 1 cup protein kangaroo & add 1-2 spoons of the blended veggie/fruit mix also had to add Digestive Enzymes 1/2 capsule & live probiotic 1/2 capsule per meal…..she told me freeze the veggie/fruit mix in 2 spoon sections & freeze the meats separate in 1 cup sections, it was so easy to do, then when Patch was doing firm stools & was OK which was the next day, I was surprised he did the firmest poo I’ve ever seen, Jacqueline promised me he would, she said the Digestive enzymes & probiotic will firm stools & they did, then I could start to add the DigestaVite Plus Powder 1/4 teaspoon then increase after 1 week.
You need to add supplements & ingredients slowely 1 at a time over 5 days cause if something goes wrong you will not know what is causing the problem……. Less is best in the beginning 🙂 also she told me No bone, some IBD dogs don’t do well eating bone……
I now cook this diet minus any meaty bones & add potato, zucchini….

Sounds like your dog Pancreas isn’t working properly either, not digesting her food properly, I would start with cooking first & see how she does, its fresh & you know what you have cooked, I freeze 2 weeks worth of meals….
have you heard of “Balance It” http://secure.balanceit.com/….Balance It gives you recipes to suit your dogs health problems takes about 20 sec then gives you all recipes, shows you how many calories, how much fat, protein fiber is in that meal & you can contact a their Vet Nutritionist….
Have you tried a digestive enzyme?? instead of increasing the steroid…..also have you tried Metronidazole (flagyl) for 2 weeks, the Metronidazole often fixes things up & kills the bad bacteria these dogs have problems with, Patch has a few scripts of the Metronidazole in the cupboard & I put him on it for 2 weeks as soon as I start to see his poos going yellow & sloppy & smelling bad….Good Luck

[Shawna]

I’ve read research discussing illnesses associated with palatants (specifically MSG and free glutamic acid) but I’ve never heard of them associated with copraphagia. Additionally, several of the supplements given for copraphagia have MSG or a form of free glutamic acid in them. Although they don’t work for all dogs, they do seem to work for some. I’m not sure what other palatants are used in pet foods?

Although I never had copraphagia, 🙂 I did have pica for about 15 or so years. I didn’t have digestive issues of any kind but turns out I had villous atrophy from a caseine sensitivity (I react to both cow and goat dairy products, raw or pasteurized, organic makes no difference either). My blood work was normal however my iron was on the very low side of normal. I also developed slight hypothyroid symptoms but test showed no issues. Anyhoo, I was finally diagnosed at age 39 by a wonderful M.D. who is also a Certified Clinical Nutritionist. She put me on an elimination diet. The only ingredients that jump out at me in Barking at the Moon would be the lectin proteins in the pea protein and the potato. I’ve not seen either of those lectin foods associated with villous atrophy but so much about lectins is still not yet known…?? Treats might be a potential source?

I currently feed commercial raw but used to feed home prepared (my time is limited now). Three of my dogs used to make a game out of eating bunny poo. That completely stopped when I started giving digestive enzymes. I never felt they were necessary in raw fed dogs but those three showed me differently. An adult foster dog came in eating poo. She was also a little over 20 pounds overweight. We got the weight off but no matter what we’ve tried she is a poop eater. She’s been an ideal weight (12 pounds) for several years now (we adopted her) but she still to this day has a snack given the opportunity. She won’t eat all poo though, so I’m assuming my senior dogs are not thoroughly digesting the proteins despite the added enzymes.

I don’t know if any of this is relevant to your pup but thought I’d put it out there.

[gina w]

Hi Shawna,
I have been reading the posts and my dog recently had an acute renal injury which caused her to go into renal failure. She started vomiting and had diarrhea and became lethargic. When we took her to the vet we found she had pancreatitis and renal failure. We thought the pancreatitis came from an obstruction so during surgery there was no obstruction but an abscess on her pancreas with a necrotic area that was removed. It has been touch and go for the last month. We did all the post surgical care at home as I am a nurse and my daughter a vet tech. It seems one week kidney improve and next week worsen. She has been getting IV fluids since the initial assault on the kidneys. This past week we have seen improvement and will get more blood work done on Monday. The uremic smell has decrease and her hemoglobin and hematocrit has slightly improved. Creatinine is 5.0 BUN >130 Phos 11 these are all down except for the BUN which is up from 110. We are getting ready to finish week 5 since the surgery and she has returned to her bossy self. Faith is a 5 1/2 year old border collie. I just purchased all the items you recommended Standard Process, Garden of Life Primal Defense and sprinkle fiber. How much of the sprinkle would you give a 40 lb dog and the primal defense. We are going to keep her on IV until Monday Feb 8th when we get her new labs. Then we will continue with Sub Q fluid boluses until we have all labs normal. Her diet has improved and we are doing a raw diet with green tripe and adding plenty of water. Thank you in advance for giving me your dosage amounts. She is also on Aluminum hydroxide three times daily.
Gina

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by gina w.

[C4D]

Hi Alex Woodward, I mean Ed W.

So you’ve made your way on to the forum side. It seems really inappropriate to tear down people on this site, particularly the regulars. I’ve seen many of their posts and I see them regularly suggest, to people that are asking for suggestions, food that is compatible with their price point. I do the same. They generally preface it with the fact that these foods have worked for them and that it might or might not work for their dog(s).

You said: “The vast majority of problems are dreamed up by pet owners in order to try the next latest and greatest product, or just overfeeding or excessive treats. Yes, this is in fact true.” Could you please provide links to back this comment up?

There are many people who have genuine issues with their dogs, myself included in the past, that would like a bit of advice, particularly when whatever they are doing is not working. I wouldn’t consider it an obsession when someone’s dog has ear or skin infections, vomitting, diarrhea, etc. and are going back to the vet several times for the same problem and they start on a merry go round of antibiotics, steroids, etc. In many cases, a change in diet worked wonders and completely cleared the dog(s) issues.

I have many personal friends that work and have worked in the dog world, including myself. They have trained, showed in AKC agility, conformation and field trials. They have finished dogs, dogs with Regional and National Championships. They feed a variety of food, including some who feed raw. None, that I know, are feeding proplan.

If you want to talk about expensive dog food, Royal Canin, which you suggest, is probably the most expensive dog food on the market, making Orijen, which is an expensive dog food, seem cheap by comparison.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by C4D.

[Laura S]

I use Sojos Pre-mix for my Frenchies. I prefer to cook the protein and I feed my male wild caught salmon and my female grass fed lamb. My female is a super picky eater and won’t eat raw. I don’t agree with the recommended amount of protein to pre-mix in the directions on the bag so I add additional protein. I also bought a box of the grain free Honest Kitchen base mix, but I am hesitant to feed because it has peas and since I have switched to Sojos, that has no peas, my male has stopped licking his paws. I also have contacted Primal Pet foods to inquire if they were ever planning on putting out a base or pre-mix because I like that the majority of the fruits and veggies are organic, but unfortunately the answer was no and they don’t make a fish based formula. Both of my dogs have bad allergies and are on medication but I am always experimenting with diet in hopes that it may help them be less itchy. We have managed to steer away from ear infections once I eliminated potatos from their diet too.

[InkedMarie]

Ed,
No one claimed to be an expert. Most of us are just pet owners doing the best for our dogs. I can say the bulk of us don’t feed any of the foods you mentioned. I can say, for me, they are not good enough for my dogs. I know what ingredients/nutritional analysis/companies make a good food. You’re free to disagree.
Regarding breeders, handlers, trainers….one of my dogs breeders fed Eukanuba when he was a puppy, 10yrs ago. I have no idea what she feeds now, she isn’t a breeder. Another breeder of my dogs sent me home with either Canidae or California Natural. Been five years so I am not positive. We just got a puppy in November. Between my breeder & her partner, there are alot of dogs in the home. They feed 4Health grainfree.
I don’t know any “professional anything” who feeds the foods you mentioned, except for some vets. The vets I’ve had in the last 10yrs feed Science Diet, Purina & RC. I disagree with what Anony,ously said aout a food the vet approves of. I personally don’t care what my vet thinks about what I feed which is raw only to two & my brittany eats a mix of raw and kibble (currently going from Annamaet Aqualuk to Open Farm turkey; Dr Tim’s RPM is next).
If you don’t agree with what is posted her or on the review side, feel free to find another place to read & post. If you choose to stay here, be aware that you won’t be changing the minds of us “experts”.

[Susan]

Hi Jazz Lover, here’s Maintenance Raw-Diet, I went thru a Naturopath Jacqueline Rudan cause Patch has IBD & Skin problems, I had to pick 2 proteins from this raw diet, 2-4 veggies & 1-2 fruits…. if you scroll down to bottom you will see other health diets there’s a ‘Skin Allergy” diet…
This diet is so easy, I would freeze the meat separate in 1 cup sections, I was blending broccoli, celery, carrot, beans & 1 apple then freezing in 2 spoon sections….. I had to add 1-2 spoons veggie/fruit mix to 1 cup protein, I picked Kangaroo mince & organic chicken breast, breakfast I feed kangaroo & dinner I feed the chicken…..I also added the DigestaVite Plus powder & the Omega 3,6, & 9 oil… add a couple small sardines if you can’t get the omega 3, 6 & 9 oil…
http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/natural-diet.html

[Susan]

Hi Bobby D, Yes a dog can take up to 6 weeks to show any signs of a food sensitivity…. My Patch was doing really well on the Wellness Whitefish & Sweet Potato (Read ingredients hardly any sweet potato full of barley) after 5 weeks he started scratching, hive like lumps under skin & sloppy yellow smelly poo’s, so I emailed Wellness Well Pet & the lady said yes it can take any where from 1 day to 6 weeks to show any signs of a food intolerance…

A few people have been complaining about Taste Of the Wild their dogs have dry skin & are real itchy, if you look at the Omega 3, it is lower in some flavours & higher in other flavours…..
Change brand of kibble with higher omega 3….. start adding a couple of small sardines in spring water (69c at Aldi) to 1 meal a day or give as a treat…..I have found just feeding a Fish & Rice kibble with no other ingredients my boy does the best on…I also feed a cook meal for dinner so only 1 meal is kibble… if you can feed freeze dried or raw is the best if your dog can handle a raw diet…

[Greg F]

We have an 8 y/o Havanese with IBD for the past 5 years. Throughout this time she has been on low dose predizone to keep her albumen numbers in the normal range. We were keeping her on a low fat HK Zeal with success until reasently when hears numbers dropped, lost weight and started passing her food through without much digestion. We started transitioning her to GL Valor fish with higher fat and calories to gain weight and she started having more stool volume and less digestion. The vet had us increase the predizone to settle the inflammation.
We went out looking for a new food and are considering Primal Venison raw complete food, however have some concerns with her IBD and sensitive bowel.
Has anyone had success with a diet and able to virtually eliminate drugs?

[Nora L]

Hi Ken,
Sorry to hear about your dog’s problems. I do think it is related to the food. The legs and thighs you’re getting are likely very high in fat. It is fat in the raw diet that causes so many problems for raw fed dogs. This also causes bile vomiting because bile is overproduced in dogs who over-consume fat. So that’s a clue that you’ve been feeding too much fat. You did the correct thing to fast your dog during the bout of diarrhea but there is no reason to feed any inappropriate foods like rice, cooked chicken or commercial dog food. A second day of fasting would allow the digestive tract to heal, and after that you need to find lower fat cuts of meat to feed, such as game hens with all visible fat removed, quail, buffalo, beef, pork and turkey. If your dog has problems eating meat that does not have bone (this causes loose stools in some dogs), supplement each of his meals with a cut that has bone, such as part of a game hen. A game hen leg (for example) along with 4-6 ounces of lean pork or beef would be a great meal for your dog. The advice you got third hand is correct, this condition does usually clear itself up when the proper changes are made to the diet.

[Nora L]

I cared for a Siberian Husky who had a long standing case of epilepsy. Her seizures never went away completely but were greatly decreased when her owners started feeding her a home-made, low-fat, raw meat/bones diet.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Nora L.

[Nora L]

Pancreatitis is associated with high fat consumption. All commercial foods have too much fat, and most don’t even disclose actual percentages on the labels. If a dog of mine had this problem, especially if s/he was as small as yours (and therefore cheap to feed), I’d opt to feed the best foods possible, raw, uncombined and in proper quantities. People are brainwashed to believe that disease just happens out of nowhere. This is not only not the case, it is possible to avoid disease and, in most cases, even reverse it by recognizing and removing the causes. My own dog died (naturally and at home) at age 19 and had not visited a vet for a symptom in the last 11 years of his life. My sister’s dog almost died from Pancreatitis 6 years ago and she switched him to a rotational mono-diet and he has not been to the vet since, for any reason. I’d be happy to share the details if you are interested.

[Nora L]

Sorry to hear that. My parents’ dog was recently diagnosed with cancer as well. I advised them to switch him to a raw diet and he is making progress — more energy, some weight loss and the tumor is shrinking. It has to be done properly though, and commercial raw blends should not be used (they are too complex and high in fat). When you have a problem like cancer, particularly when it’s located in a part of the body whose function it is to eliminate the waste products of digestion, you have to look at what you’ve been feeding. Vets don’t get the connection between food and disease although yours alluded to the problem when s/he mentioned “residues”. What s/he’s recommending however is a food that produces only slightly less waste than the normal commercial foods. The kinds of foods a dog with cancer needs are the kind that produce no more than the canine body has historically had to deal with — the minimal kinds that are produced from a very lean, clean diet of herbivorous animals, fed raw and uncombined with other foods. Dogs sometimes recover from cancer with very small dietary improvements, but since you don’t know all the factors that will determine his/her ability to heal, you want to err on the side of feeding as close to perfectly as you can. I worked up a protocol for my folks and I’d be happy to share it with you if you’d like.

[Pittiemama]

I posted this is the Health issues and Nutrition portion. Maybe this would have been a better place. I don’t know so…

I have a 5 year old rescue Am. Staff. who sadly has early kidney failure. I’m seeing a holistic vet in a couple of weeks for guidance on so many things with him. He also has a lot of food intolerances. I was wondering what you all know about home cooking. I hear a lot about raw but I’m wondering about cooking. Right now I feed Honest Kitchen Brave. It’s great and he loves it but if his phosphorous starts to rise I’ll need to rethink his diet a little or I may start earlier just to be sure he’s getting everything right. I’m definitely in the planning stage right now. Also I add in a little kibble to decrease the cost some, Honest Kitchen is spendy and would be about $250-300/month on it’s own (my guy is 74#) and to decrease the phosphorous I found a kibble that’s balanced but has a lower phosphorous due to their formulation. I’m not at all restricting as he’s not at that point yet but I figured if I find something that’s a little lower and still balanced, that’s probably best right now. Because of his allergies I feed him fish diets, which is the only protein I’ve found so far that works well and the one that doesn’t give him pink skin and ear infections, so unless I figure out another protein that he can tolerate, fish it is. Also he’s allergic to some grains (I think corn…ick, wheat…no thanks and not sure about rice) and I don’t want to feed him grain, just my preference. I’m mostly wanting meat, veggies, fruit and supplements.
Here’s my question:
Have any of you cooked meals with fish? Most of the diets I see are chicken, turkey, beef etc. What fish did you use? I mostly see pollock, mackerel, sardines etc. What have you used? I’m thinking of using a base like Honest Kitchen Preference or Dr. Harvey’s Veg-to-Bowl and adding cooked fish. Again, I’m not married to that idea but because balance is so difficult and I want to be sure he is getting the right nutrition. Balance is key! It is with everything but he’s a complicated dude, hence the trip to the holistic vet. I’m sure she can help but so many of you have knowledge and experience that I figured it would help me narrow down some ideas and research points.
Thanks a bunch!

[Nora L]

The increase in the growths may have to do with the fat content of the food you’re feeding. Although cooking presents problems of its own, it melts fat and allows it to be removed from the meat before feeding. When you’re feeding raw you have to be more careful about buying cuts of meat that have fat that can be cut away. The problem with fat is that this is where the animal’s body stored the waste that was produced by the bad diet it was fed while it was living. That’s why you see so much fat on domestic chickens and cows — it’s good for the producers because the cheaper foods create it and the animal is heavier when it is killed. So they make money on both ends. It is a disaster for the animals who end up eating them, however. I guarantee it is not the fruit that is causing the problem, except perhaps that it is mixed with other foods and will not be properly digested. Fruit is a natural food for dogs and when it is eaten alone it is easily digested. However, dogs would never in their biological history have had occasion to mix it with other foods. Fruit is regarded by dogs to be a contingent food, to be eaten when prey is not available. I would be interested to know how your dog did after her diagnosis and change of diet, as I am working with someone now whose dog was just diagnosed.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Nora L.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Nora L.

[Pittiemama]

I have a 5 year old rescue Am. Staff. who sadly has early kidney failure. I’m seeing a holistic vet in a couple of weeks for guidance on so many things with him. He also has a lot of food intolerances. I was wondering what you all know about home cooking. I hear a lot about raw but I’m wondering about cooking. Right now I feed Honest Kitchen Brave. It’s great and he loves it but if his phosphorous starts to rise I’ll need to rethink his diet a little or I may start earlier just to be sure he’s getting everything right. I’m definitely in the planning stage right now. Also I add in a little kibble to decrease the cost some, Honest Kitchen is spendy and would be about $250-300/month on it’s own (my guy is 74#) and to decrease the phosphorous I found a kibble that’s balanced but has a lower phosphorous due to their formulation. I’m not at all restricting as he’s not at that point yet but I figured if I find something that’s a little lower and still balanced, that’s probably best right now. Because of his allergies I feed him fish diets, which is the only protein I’ve found so far that works well and the one that doesn’t give him pink skin and ear infections, so unless I figure out another protein that he can tolerate, fish it is. Also he’s allergic to some grains (I think corn…ick, wheat…no thanks and not sure about rice) and I don’t want to feed him grain, just my preference. I’m mostly wanting meat, veggies, fruit and supplements.

Here’s my question:
Have any of you cooked meals with fish? Most of the diets I see are chicken, turkey, beef etc. What fish did you use? I mostly see pollock, mackerel, sardines etc. What have you used? I’m thinking of using a base like Honest Kitchen Preference or Dr. Harvey’s Veg-to-Bowl and adding cooked fish. Again, I’m not married to that idea but because balance is so difficult and I want to be sure he is getting the right nutrition. Balance is key! It is with everything but he’s a complicated dude, hence the trip to the holistic vet. I’m sure she can help but so many of you have knowledge and experience that I figured it would help me narrow down some ideas and research points.

Thanks a bunch!

[Frank K]

The Wellness Core Puppy formula is well-rated, as is the Adult version. I particularly appreciate the consistency of their product, the ease of use, and the overall health of my pups. To the best of my knowledge, there have never been any issues with the company or the food either. I spend $114 buying 2 26 pounds every 6 weeks for my 2 American Pit Bull pups who are now 11 months old and weigh 118 and 85 pounds (1 male, 1 female). When I initially received my dogs, they did experience 3-4 days of soft stool when starting the Wellness Core Puppy, but I am not entirely certain whether it was related to the food or the stress associated with moving. I do not routinely supplement with anything else, although they do occasionally receive some tasty meat and vegetable leftovers! While I am certain there are many excellent brands available, consistency IS a huge consideration. You must also objectively assess just how much time and effort you can regularly offer in purchasing and preparing the food. For dogs with digestive sensitivity, even minute alterations in diet can provoke distressful symptoms, which makes consistency ever MORE vital. For this reason, I would probably NOT use raw foods with your dog. Commercially available meat can vary enormously in quality for a multitude of reasons–FDA inspected and all. If you raise your own meat and absolutely know that it has been correctly handled start to finish, it may be a different story! We actually DO raise and butcher our own meats but I still stick with the dry food because I know that I cannot always spend the time prepping for the dogs–no matter now good my intentions may be! Be wary, also, of advice you receive on the internet from self-professed experts. (Mine included!) In the majority of cases, the individuals giving it are not sufficiently educated on the most current scientific research available and are basing their comments on anecdotal experiences and personal bias. And while there is certainly nothing wrong with experience, it is usually specific to that individual situation and may or may not have relevance to you. In the end, you want a cost effective, efficient, consistent, healthy, and uncomplicated diet for your dog without the hassle and expense of experimenting with a million different magic formulas. Finding a veterinarian who specializes in gastroenterology/nutrition through any of the veterinary colleges may actually save you money in the long run and would guarantee your dog the benefit of the most up to date information, as well as a individualized treatment approach. I wish you all the best in finding whatever works for your pet and many joyful years together!

[A K]

I have a 10 month old female lab about 60 pounds. She has had some significant issues with loose stools in the past. I tried a few dry kibbles and she kept having loose stools until I added Prebiotics and Probiotics to each meal. Right now, she is on Flint River Ranch – Lamb Meal, Millet, and Rice. If I don’t add a capsule of MicroFlora Plus (Prebiotics, Probiotics, Enzymes, and Herbs) to each meal, she’ll start having loose stools within a few days. I’ve been considering improving the quality of her food so I wanted to get some input on what type of food i should look into. I’m looking for the right balance of cost, convenience, and quality.

I’m afraid a homemade raw diet would be too time consuming, unless it was something easy such as Volhard Dog Nutrition – Natural Diet Food 2 (NDF2) which appears to be very easy and quick (just add protein to the premixed nutrients). The concern with NDF2 is that it would be too costly. It’s $75 for 10 pounds (good for about a month of meals from what I can tell) and I’m not sure how much the fresh protein I would need to purchase would cost.

There are also frozen premade raw diet options available. I assume this option would be very convenient, but I’m not sure how good they are or how much they would cost.

I’ve also heard of some people just adding some fresh raw proteins (ground beef for example) to their current dry kibble.

I’m also open to just a better quality dry kibble as well.

Out of the above options, which would you suggest for a good balance of quality, convenience, and cost? I’d like to stay under $75 a month, but could go up to $100 if necessary.

Thanks so much for any help!!!

• This topic was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by A K.

[Susan]

She’s a very smart dog & knows kibble is crap…… She probably was brought up on a raw diet or a cooked diet, have you ever tried feeding any raw?…. I wish my boy could eat raw diet, its fresh, its easy & raw diet is what dogs & cats naturally eat, not processed foods…

[El]

Hi Pittiemama, welcome to DFA!

I’m very sorry to hear about your pups kidney issues 🙁

I believe in exploring all options when it comes to the health of my furry family members. I research everything and then I research some more. I think that peer reviewed articles are very important because they are written by experts and reviewed by experts in whatever field the article or study comes from.

A good place to search for canine kidney disease, or any medical issue you would like to research is “Google Scholar” and “Pubmed”.

Anecdotal evidence can often be confusing. For instance, Shawna’s baby lived over 8 years on a holistic, raw diet with plenty of alternative treatments.

And a friend of mine adopted an 8 week old lab who was diagnosed with kidney disease at 12 weeks old. She lived to be 9 years old on a low protein, prescription diet from the vet.

I tried to talk him into feeding a less processed homemade or commercial diet that used fresh minimally processed whole foods but he stuck with his vet’s food. I can only imagine how long she would have lived on a fresh food, minimally processed diet designed for kidney patients.

I did talk him into using freeze-dried kidney products and I suspect they helped. Seeing a holistic vet is something I would definitely look into. The more you know, the better you will be able to make an informed decision regarding the care of your pup.

Naturopathy is a very controversial form of “medicine” and I hope you do your due diligence before going down that path. Make up your own mind based on your own research.

Below are a few very critical quotes and links about Naturopathy and the original online, no attendance required, schools of natural healing. I wish you and your baby a long and healthy life 😉

“The Biggest Quack School in Natural Medicine Closes”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-andrew-lange/the-biggest-quack-school_b_641931.html

“Diploma Mill PoliceSM Clayton College of Natural Health (AL) Distance Learning Accreditation Report”
http://www.geteducated.com/diploma-mill-police/degree-mills-list/clayton-college-of-natural-health-accreditation

“Clayton College of Natural Health: Be Wary of the School and Its Graduates”
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Nonrecorg/clayton.html

“A Close Look at Naturopathy”
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

“Colorado, naturopathy, and “health freedom”: Devolving into a quack wonderland?”
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/06/11/colorado-naturopathy-and-health-freedom-devolving-into-a-quack-wonderland/

“Britt Deegan Hermes, a former naturopathic doctor and Bastyr grad, has a new blog: Naturopathic Diaries. It is a must-read! Britt reveals the pseudoscience and lack of clinical training behind naturopathic education.”
http://www.no-naturopaths.org/

[aimee]

Hi Pitlove,

I feed some Primal but I do lightly cook it as it is not HPP except for the poultry product. Last time I checked as I recall they consult with a PhD nutritionist… not a veterinary nutritionist.

They haven’t feed trialed the diets and i don’t know if the nutritional information they post is based off of lab analysis or computer paper analysis.

As far as raw food companies goes I think it is one of the relatively better ones…but I do cook the food and only use it as a topper and not as a complete diet.

[aimee]

Hi Kelly,

You can find veterinary nutritionists through their website acvn dot org. But most won’t do raw diets and even fewer a raw diet for a puppy. If you want to go that route I’d suggest trying Dr Bartges

The reason most won’t, I think, is two fold.. one the pathogen exposure and two the availability of nutrients contained in raw meaty bones isn’t quantified. Providing calcium at just the right range for a large breed pup becomes an unknown if calcium absorption from these sources isn’t known.

Some time ago I read an article on a pup that had severe calcium depletion on a home made raw diet yet there was plenty of bone in the gut.. In other words the calcium from the bone that was being fed wasn’t being absorbed.

So I wonder if a vet nutritionist who would formulate for a pup would skip the bone and use a Ca source whose availability is known.

The commercial raw foods you mention may be all life stage formula’s meaning they meet the criteria for puppies and then by default for adults.

The only company I know of that made a raw that went through feeding trials and is HPP and consults with a vet nutritionist is Natures Variety. The current formula haven’t been through feeding trials but carry a feeding trial statement by way of AAFCO’s family rule.

Like pitlove, I too have seen horrible results from a raw food diet on the growth of a puppy. The owner was an experienced raw food feeder for her past adult dogs and this was the first pup she raised on raw. The dog was anemic, small for its breed and had to have orthopedic surgery at a young age. So sad….After having seen this first hand it is why I’m uneasy with your plan.

[Shawna]

Hi Pittiemama,

Hopefully I can help you here. My puppy had kidney disease right from birth. It is believed her kidneys just weren’t able to develop (she was the sixth puppy, the runt, for a 12 pound Chihuahua / Boston Terrier mix). The breeder had to had feed her, due to a collapsing trachea, raw goats milk and egg whites to keep her alive. She had symptoms (excessive drinking and urine) at just six weeks of age. She was officially diagnosed at one year and given a year to live. She lived to eight years and seven months old and then passed for reasons not directly related to kd.

A little background on me, my father is a naturopath. I did consult with him when I got Audrey’s diagnosis but being raised by him, I was able to mostly formulate the plan of attack myself.

Audrey’s numbers, when she was diagnosed, were right around the same as your babies — and she lived almost seven more very very healthy and happy years. It could happen for your baby too.

The first thing I would suggest is to keep up on his dental health. You won’t want to use anesthesia for dental cleanings so RIGHT now start doing anything and everything you need to keep his teeth clean. It was actually bacteria likely from a dental infection that got into Audrey’s kidneys and ultimately took her life. Use fresh garlic in his meals. Use an enzyme supplement in his water, Dr. Melissa Shelton’s essential oil called Dog Breath is very effective and a drop can be added to his water dish or you can mix with water in a spray bottle and spray right on teeth. http://www.animaleo.info/dog-breath.html I would also recommend a product made by Green Pasture’s called Infused Coconut Oil. It’s high in vitamin K2 (which has been shown to have great benefit for teeth) and has other wonderful nutrients. All of my dogs get it but I found it when Audrey’s teeth were already needing some extra support. 🙁 http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/InfusedCoconutOil/index.cfm

I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support. It is a food based supplement that “feeds” the kidneys but also has a product called a protomorphogen (which is the RNA/DNA of the kidney cell) that helps prevent inflammation to the kidneys. It is the one supplement she never went without. I also used their SP Canine Hepatic Support when I thought she needed a little liver support — helps with allergies too. I also used their Cataplex B and C as water soluble vitamins may need to be added due to the large amounts being urinated out.

ONLY give filtered or other forms of “clean” water. I would avoid tap water at all cost. Lower sodium mineral waters with good amounts of calcium and magnesium have been shown to be beneficial for dogs with kd. I like Evian water because it is high in calcium bicarbonate. I didn’t give it all the time but made sure (at least in the beginning) to give it regularly — I got lax in the later years and I truly believe Audrey would still be with me if I had not. She was doing so well though and my life got busier..

I HIGHLY recommend getting some Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotic and Garden of Life Acacia Fiber supplements as well. These are used as “nitrogen traps” and as BUN begins to build up the bacteria consuming the fiber will cause some of the nitrogen to be routed through the bowels freeing up the kidneys from having to deal with them. I gave probiotic foods (like green tripe, fermented veggies etc) frequently but when I noticed she was feeling a little lethargic, depressed, not feeling well etc I assumed nitrogen was building up and I’d give her the probiotics and prebiotic for several days. Always worked like a charm. Will be quite important as the disease progresses and he starts getting symptoms. This also allows for a higher protein diet. The protein doesn’t damage the kidneys but it does, due to BUN, add to symptoms. Oh, I forgot to mention. Audrey ate a HIGH protein raw diet up until the last six to eight weeks of her life. Audrey never had a problem with phosphorus but as your puppies disease progresses you may have to watch the amount of phosphorus in the foods you are feeding. The golden rule is to limit phosphorus but it’s obviously not always necessary. That said, phosphorus can damage the kidneys if it gets too high in the blood so either monitor it or feed the right amounts of phos for the stage your pup is at. Right now while phosphorus isn’t as big an issue, I like the Honest Kitchen Brave. To that I would add a raw egg a few times per week and give Answer’s raw goat milk regularly as well. Both raw eggs (if not whipped etc) and raw milk can easily increase the “master antioxidant” in the body called glutathione. This will obviously help out everything. Later, when phos needs to be more restricted, you may not be able to give the whole egg (as the yolk is higher in phos).

Supplements —
1. Organic Turmeric is good as it is anti-inflammatory but it also is anti-fibrotic (prevents scar tissue). Audrey didn’t tolerate turmeric well so she didn’t get it but in general it would be quite helpful for a dog with KD.
2. Spirulina, chlorella and pumpkin seed oil are all high in chlorophyll and supplies lots of other nutrients. Dogs with KD can be at risk for anemia and chlorophyll is awesome for anemia.
3. Burdock root is a prebiotic and of the herb world is considered to be the “blood cleaner”.
4. Milk thistle helps spare glutathione and is a good detoxer.
5. Distilled water (given once in a while) and food grade activated charcoal are good detoxers too.
6. Copaiba essential oil is great for pains and inflammation plus more. A therapeutic grade, like Dr. Sheltons, is the only kind to use on pets. Can be given in food or rubbed into the skin over the kidneys as an example.
7. Braggs brand apple cider vinegar can help with indigestion or tummy issues. Audrey didn’t need it often but when she did I would mix it 50/50 with water and syringe feed it. She hated it but within seconds would burp and feel better.
8. Therapeutic grade peppermint oil, ginger extract or Dr. Shelton’s GI Joe essential oil work great for tummy issues as well. I got sick to my tummy and used the GI Joe to help. Kept me from vomiting and soothed my tummy.
9. Learn about essential oils if you don’t already know. If you have a Facebook account, join AnimalEO’s page and sign up for Dr. Shelton’s Friday Fun Facts. I didn’t know about them early enough to be much use with Audrey (specifically Dr. Shelton’s oils) but I sure wish I had.

DON’T do ANY more vaccinations – not even rabies if you can at all avoid. Audrey was legally exempted from having to get the rabies vaccine for life. She wasn’t protected either as she only got her first shot (at six months) before diagnosis was made. No heartworm, flea/tick or anything like that either.

I know there’s things I’m forgetting but hopefully this is enough to give you a good jumping off point.. 🙂 Hugs to you and your baby boy!!!!

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Shawna.

[Pitlove]

Hi Kelly- “Puppies need more calcium than an adult dog” Right here is where I need to stop you. Your puppy will be considered a giant breed and while you have been researching a homemade raw diet, you haven’t factored in that you have a dog that will be large. Large and giant breeds do not need more calcium, they need very very controlled levels. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus needs to fall between a 1.1:1 and a 1.5:1 ratio. Anything higher can increase the risk that they grow too quickly and develop devastating orthopedic disorders. I’ve seen the horrible effects of a large breed puppy (specifically a Great Dane) fed a raw diet that was poorly balanced.

I’m sorry, but I have to agree with Aimee on this. I’m not against feeding raw, but for a large or giant breed, optimal growth is the first and foremost important thing. I would absolutely choose a commercial food that can confirm by emailing you their as fed or MAX levels of calcium and phosphorus, that it is safe for your giant breed puppy.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Pitlove.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Pitlove.

[El]

Hi Kelly P

I would recommend these 2 books as part of your research into feeding a properly balanced raw diet to your pup.

“Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day.”

Here are the feeding guidelines from Primal, I think they are pretty accurate. Puppies need more than 2% of their body weight daily.

Feeding Percentages
1.5% Weight Loss
2.0% Non-Active
2.5% Maintain Weight **
3.0% Slight Weight Gain
3.5% Significant Weight Gain
4.0% Kittens/Puppies (8 weeks-1 year)
4.5-8.0% Kittens/Puppies (4-8 weeks)
4.0-8.0% Pregnant/Lactating

“We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.
Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea.”

I would puree the veggies. Cauliflower, broccoli, spinach in moderation, green beans, peas in moderation…

“Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium.”

I would suggest free-range organic eggs. I know that people feed finely ground egg shells as a calcium source, but I don’t know about feeding whole egg shells. I would do a little more research specifically on the calcium requirements of large breed puppies if I were you. She will be getting calcium from bones, egg shells, spinach and ?

Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

In general, I would feed small fish, they usually have softer bones and less toxic buildup. I would not cook the tripe. One of the benefits of feeding “Raw Green Tripe” are the enzymes, and any processing or cooking will destroy those enzymes.

“As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.
Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies
Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies”

I feed my dogs a homemade lightly cooked diet. Version one looks pretty good. Since I lightly cook my guys food I would replace the 10% edible bone with 5% more pureed veggies and 5% supplements to balance out the diet.

“My main questions are about bones.”

This is good because I see bones as the riskiest part of your diet plan and I would carefully consider both sides of the argument so that you can make the most informed choice possible. Also, regarding Wolves and bones, research has shown that larger pieces of bones are excreted from wolves wrapped in the fur of the animal they ate, maybe as a way of protecting their insides from the bone fragments.

Good Luck with the new addition to your family 😉

[Kelly P]

@Anonymously – I do know bones can be risky, but you have to get calcium in the diet. Which is why actually most people grind the bones, meat, and other ingredients into mush. I would prefer that my puppy learn to chew.

Also I don’t really care for you bringing in articles in regards to dogs are not wolves. A dog is a carnivore not an omnivore. You can argue that the parasites living on the meat can threaten the animal’s life, but then you have the same issue with your raw Commercial food, unless they’re not telling the truth and it’s really cooked raw meat.

@Aimee – I understand your worry which is why I’ve spent time researching.
I have not talked to a Veterinary nutritionist because I don’t know of any. A Veterinary is not a nutritionist either so I can’t ask them. Here’s what I’ve learned though for puppy specific food. Puppies need more calcium than an adult dog. I’ve also read that it’s best to start raw feeding from an early age. Do you buy the same bag of food for an adult as for a puppy?

Wysong doesn’t seem to have a difference, I didn’t see any of the Dawrwin’s to have a choice between adult and puppy. Primal Raw Food doesn’t seem to have a difference either… Am I missing the Puppy formula? Nature’s Variety Raw doesn’t seem to have puppy specific formula. I know Blue Buffalo does but that’s merely grain free dog food. I’m not trying to be a jerk, but if the formula for the adult dog doesn’t change why is it an issue? I’ve also read that there’s a large margin of error when feeding raw, maybe like you suggested its only for adults because puppy nutrition is so important. Or maybe because no one expects to feed a puppy any raw food?

[aimee]

Hi Kelly P,

Your plan makes me very nervous. Have you consulted with a veterinary nutritionist? There are a few that will do raw diets and even fewer yet willing to do a raw diet for a growing large breed puppy. It i s very tricky… adult dogs are much more flexible from a nutritional standpoint.

If you want to do raw from puppyhood I’d recommend a commercial raw that has passed feeding trials for growth and is high pressure pasteurized.

[Kelly P]

Ok I have not yet gotten my puppy I have about 4 weeks still. She will grow up to be around 100lbs, so I’ll probably feed her about 2lbs a day. We will be training too with treats so I need to be sure they level each other out. I have done a lot of research as I’ve been preparing for the past 1-2 years. What I found so far is the following.

Feeding anti-oxidants or some sort of cooked veggies is a good idea. Feeding organic eggs, shell and all, is good at least once a week. Egg shells provide a lot of calcium. Feeding a whole fish once a week is good because of the oil it provides, be sure not to feed tuna because of the high mercury levels. Cooked Tripe is great and so is a some coconut oil. I figure I can saute the veggies in coconut oil.

As far as percentages I have read a few different things but my research has come up with the below.

Version 1
75% Muscle/skin (i.e chicken breast)
10% Edible Bone
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

Version 2
50% Meaty Bones
35% Muscle/Skin (i.e chicken breast)
5% Liver
5% Non liver organs
5% Anti-oxidants/Veggies

My main questions are about bones. I know you can’t just let the dog eat bones they have to get used to them so they actually chew them, else I’ll have to grind them up. But I’d prefer not to. Wolves don’t grind their bones up prior to eating.

I also am not entirely sure of what are good meaty bones, I know almost all bones in small animals are fine. Neck/tail bones of larger animals for the most part are fine. To stay away from basically legs as they’re denser. And an Edible bone should be something that is easily consumable.

What would be the best way to get my puppy acclimated to bones properly? Hand feeding is one I’ve found, but will I be able to trust my dog as she gets older and bigger? I don’t plan to leave her food out or anything but let’s say I put the food down and something comes that needs my attention for a bit. I’d like to think she’d be fine. I’m paranoid and want to do this right.

Also could I possibly be missing something at all?

Resources used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijP_CVZUa5g&list=LLcG0oHG3mpprbGFFglrzVyg&index=2
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeding-primer/
http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-1.aspx
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-2.aspx
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/01/raw-food-diet-part-3.aspx
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/697247/1
And various other user forums and sites.

• This topic was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Kelly P.

[El]

Hi EmilyAnn

Congratulations on slimming down your little cutie pie 😉

It’s safe to give your pup pumpkin every day. If you’re looking for a variety of healthy snacks, you could try broccoli, apples, carrots, bananas, homemade jerky, kefir, eggs, ???

The key is moderation, so even things like carrots, apples, bananas, and any other non low glycemic fruits or veggies can be enjoyed for variety, antioxidants, and just because he likes them. Eggs are the “perfect protein” and my dogs like them, plain kefir is a good probiotic, but it is dairy, homemade jerky is high protein and very yummy.

Variety is good, try a lot of things, make sure the total of ALL his treats are not more than 10 to 15% of his diet, so you don’t unbalance what I hope is his balanced commercial raw. When you try new things give very little so if it doesn’t agree with him it’s only minor.

One of mine ONLY eats homemade chicken jerky, no turkey, no fish, no beef, no bullies, no veggies, nothing but chicken jerky, for treats anyway. You think he’s spoiled? 😉

Congratulations again on his successful weight loss! I know he must have acted like you were starving him.