hi HDM,
Thanks for answering. She was eating mostly boneLESS and still sometimes not pooping unless I gave her olive oil so it appears the amount of boneless doesnt seem to matter much with her. As far as her stools, she hasn’t been a great pooper since we got her, it would take her a few minutes to get it out. Then, 2 or 3 weeks, I think, after we got her is when she ended up stopped up and had to have an enema at the vets. So, I honestly dont know how she has pooped. She was on kibble before we got her.
Before I posted here, I emailed Tracy at Hare Today. I thought she was home from vacation but wasn’t sure which is why I posted here too. This is her response:
“You are feeding 7 ounces a day right now. Is the dog maintaining weight at this? I had said to start at 6.72 ounces so you are a bit over the amount per day I would start with. Do you have a scale and weighing out portions?
Get sardine/anchovy oil or salmon oil which is fish based and use that as a daily supplement not olive oil. Olive oil is not species appropriate for a carnivore.
Try to do 4 meals of all boneless and by all means start feeding the tripe as a stand alone meal, as tripe has a lot of amino acids in it. Do every 5th or 6th meal with the meat/bone/organ grind and once a week add a tablespoon or so of the organ blend and see what happens. As I said you may need to keep tweaking this for her and see what works best. Again some dogs don’t poop every day which can be normal. I personally would not worry about it as long as she is having a BM every other day or every 3rd day.
Another thing you can do is feed a meal of a raw egg. Raw egg will also help loosen stools. Too much can cause diarrhea though so start slowly.”
My response to her is that yes, I apparently have been overfeeding a bit. I do have a scale, she already gets salmon oil. She gets a whole egg once or twice a week, the diarrhea hasn’t happened on those days but I’ll do half an egg. I told her if she poops every other day, I will have to live with that but NOT if it’s diarrhea. I have tripe and ground organs thawing now. I am going to put a tablespoon of tripe into the dogs ice cube trays and freeze them. I do that with the herring.
Comments on what Tracy said? Will check out the GI Detox
My other dog is eating Blue Buffalo Freedom. Would you switch her to that? I was thinking maybe she’s allergic to something in the food which is why I wanted to start her on a LID and then maybe switch her over to a regular grain free. Thanks for the info on fish oil.
Hi merrymenagerie –
If she’s currently eating Pedigree I’m sure you’ll see a big improvement in coat condition by switching to any of the 4 or 5 star grain-free foods. The only suggestion I would make is to drop the flax oil and use fish oil or krill oil instead (or at least in addition to the flax oil). Flax contains omega 3 fatty acids, however they’re in the form of alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) – ALA needs to be converted into eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) before it can be utilized by the body. Dogs are very inefficient at converting ALA to DHA and EPA (some sources I’ve read say less than 15% is converted), so you’d be much better of feeding a fish-based oil which contains omega 3’s in the form of DHA and EPA.
Hi BlueDog –
It would be okay to use canned vegetables on occasion if you absolutely have to, but I wouldn’t exactly consider them a good substitute for fresh. A lot of nutrients are lost during the canning process. Your best choice is (obviously) going to be fresh produce, followed by frozen and then canned would be the least nutritious. Remember fresh and frozen vegetables need to be cooked and pureed prior to feeding – this will start to break down the cellulose and allow the dog to digest the vegetables more efficiently. If convenience is an issue another option that I feel is a bit healthier than canned vegetables is “pouched” fruit and vegetable puree sold for babies. I usually cook up and puree fresh or frozen vegetables for my crew but if I know I’m going to be pressed for time I’ll pick up some of these. They generally contain two or three different fruits and vegetables and the cooking and pureeing is already done for you. Canned fish is fine – tinned sardines are a great source of omega 3’s and vitamin d and low in mercury and canned oysters supply some omega 3’s in addition to many trace nutrients. If you aren’t feeding raw fatty fish or adding fish oil to meals you’ll want to feed tinned sardines. Steve Brown – essential fat authority and author or “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” – recommends the following amounts of sardines be served per week: 5 lbs – 1/4 can; 15 lbs. – 1/2 can; 25 lbs. – 5/8 can; 50 lbs. – 1 can; 100 lbs. – 1 3/4 can. (3.75 oz. can packed in water). And yes, it’s completely okay to buy bulk frozen meat. I buy bulk frozen meat because I get the best price when I buy in bulk.
This is the spirulina supplement that my vet.
Animal Essentials Organic Green Alternative
Animal Essentials Herbal Green Alternative Antioxidant Powder for Dogs & Cats
Any thoughts?
Both my dogs are on Darwin’s, or we feed THK preference with an organic protein, or a balanced diet of rmb, meat and organ (usually kidney or liver). We also feed raw green tripe, and on occasion kibble with Merrick. ( we are switching from Evo red meat to trying our first bag of Brothers Complete Allergy. )
We also supplement with kefir, yogurt, cottage cheese, fresh eggs, sardines in olive oil.
We give pre and probiotic with enzymes daily, turmeric, glucosamine and fish oil also.
I use iFlora digestive formula (prebiotics, probiotics and enzymes) for the boys, in addition to plain kefir. We also feed raw green tripe. ( they had some for their breakfast this morning).
I really think the combination of these has helped tremendously to the over all health of both of the dogs.
We also supplement with turmeric, glucosamine and omega3 fish oil for joint health.
My vet recently suggested a spirulina powder for additional antioxidants, but we have not yet added that in.
I swear…I spend more time nd energy thinking about my dogs food than I do my own!
However, after seeing how well Hank did off the grains, I stopped eating them as well and now I am not having the horrible asthma issues I have been treating for 10 years. It has been 4 months since I stopped taking my singular and I have not had one issue. Amazing. I really wonder if there is something to the quality of the grains with the advent of GMO.
Hdm- yeah I think once I do raw longer I will find easier strategies. As of now his breakfast is a boneless meal of either green tripe, ground beef, chicken gizzards, turkey, or natural mix from blue ridge which contains tripe beef chicken liver and hearts. He also gets his veggie mix in the morning for breakfast which contains a mixture of veggies, and boiled eggs. At dinner he gets rmbs such as leg quarters, turkey necks, wings, pork necks, and other chicken parts. He also gets a fish meal once a week. I’ve been using the quart size ziplock bags and usually fill them half way up (meal portion sizes) I think I’m going to start buying the gallon size bags. When you freeze your rmbs, how do you separate them at meal time if they are frozen? How do you store them? Also, it’s been hard for me to find a co op in my area. How much do you think you spend monthly for one of your dogs?
Thank you!! I am going to give it a shot and a slow transition. I wrote to Steve and he answered back very quickly and was very helpful so I am off to shop. Steve recommended that I feed as low in fat protein as possible to my one chihuahua that has Panceratitis and he also recommended sardines ( in water) not oil once a week or fish oil. He said I can feed veggies and fruits and probably should with my Pancreatitis girl. turkey is what we have been feeding so I imagine he means all white lean turkey.
All you need to add is meat and fish oil or tinned sardines. You can add extras (such as vegetables) but the extras are optional and should comprise no more than 20% of the meal. The volume would be similar to other raw foods – about 2% to 3% of the dog’s body weight.
Sorry, no help here as my pugs rarely get bathed but I thought a shiny coat came from “within”. I did notice though that when I added raw food and fish oil that my black one was softer and shinier. I get alot of dull black/rusty black fosters.
Poor guy! If it were me, I’d probably do some fish oil, joint support, anti-inflammatories, antioxidants and enzymes.
Vet’s Best has a supplement called “Active Senior Aging Support” that doesn’t look too bad. It has glucosamine, msm, vitamin c, l-carnitine, l-taurine, CoQ10, lycopene, vitamin e, brewer’s yeast, fish oil, spirulina, papaya extract (papain), pineapple extract (bromelain), lecithin, chlorella, cranberry extract, acai extract, bee pollen, goji berry extract, grapeseed extract, pomegranate extract, bilberry extract, dunaliella salina sea algae extract, milk thistle extract and pygeum extract.
BTW – just got in a little of little black pug mixes at my shelter. Soo adorable. Not sure what they’re mixed with but they’re very “puggy.”
I give a whole food supplement, a supergreen, fish oil and vit E, and ACV with the mother. Plus occasionals like garlic, coconut oil, probiotics, that sort of thing.
Blurose,
Usually 2-3% of your dog’s body weight per day and adjust for his activity level. I have small indoor dogs so they would eat just under 2% if they were just eating raw but they eat a variety of foods. Hounddogmom has a list of supplements she gives in the raw food menus thread I think. Maybe she will see this post and chime in. I do give a supergreen supplement and fish oil.
You don’t have to add pro/zymes to raw food. I would just add it to the kibble meal. It looks like you serve a variety of kibble so alternating the raw flavors would seem to make sense as well. I use fish oil (not regularly) and hold it if giving sardines. I give various raw foods as well with no particular rotation. Whatever I grab out of the freezer is what they get!
Hi everyone!
I look here all the time – and have learned a lot…but I have a few questions.
I bought Bravo Balance chicken, Natures Variety beef patties and chicken patties.
The reason for two proteins ( chic.) is because it’s an hour drive…and its all she had.
Next time I’d like to get duck or something besides chicken.
Do I add probiotics and enzymes to the raw food? Will be feeding raw for breakfast and Fromms, Wellness , Earthborn kibble and NV canned along with eggs, sardines and such in evevings.
How do I rotate the raw foods. Bravo for a few days, then the beef then the chicken?
I was at health store and saw Enzymes from the NOW product. Should I buy that one?
Also saw Barleans omega 3 fish oil in sardine,macherel & anchovy. Should I buy that?
Please tell me what all I need to purchase.
Thanks!
Hi steelerfan500 –
The amount of glucosamine present in dog food is generally too low to provide any theraputic effect. I would recommend supplementing with a quality glucosamine/chondroitin/msm supplement to help maintain joint integrity. I’d also consider supplementing with a natural anti-inflammatory (or combination of a few) such as turmeric, bromelain boswellia, yucca, tart cherry or high doses of omega 3’s (up to 1,000 mg. fish oil per 10 lbs. of body weight to achieve anti-inflammatory benefits). Supplementing with an anti-inflammatory will help with pain and stiffness.
Hi Bigcoco –
1) 30% bone is way too much. As Patty said, bone should comprise 10% of the diet. The calcium to phosphorus ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 (ideally around 1.2 – 1.3:1). When the diet is 10% bone, 10% organ meat and 80% muscle meat the calcium to phosphorus ratio is right within that optimal range. A diet of 30% bone will be throwing that ratio of balance.
2) I checked out the product website and I can’t see where organs are included in the mixes? All I see is where they state 70% meat and 30% bone. If organ meat is not included in adequate quantities in the 70% “meat” you’ll need to feed organ meat. Organ meat should comprise 10% of the diet – 5% being liver and 5% being other organs (kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, brain, etc.). Organ meat provides crucial vitamins and minerals that aren’t provided by muscle meat.
3) I can’t find where the level of vitamin e in the Bravo salmon oil is stated on their website and often the amounts added to fish oils are too low. I checked out the Pet Naturals of Vermont Daily Best supplement and there is little vitamin e in that either. Small dogs should get 50 – 100 IU per day, medium dogs 100 – 200 IU per day and large dogs 200 – 400 IU per day. Vitamin e requirements increase when fish oil (omega 3’s) is being supplemented, if adequate quantities are not received with omega 3 fatty acid supplementation the dog will eventually develop a vitamin e deficiency.
4) It’s also possible your dog could be deficient in certain trace nutrients – it’s hard telling without a nutrient analysis but because the Pet Naturals supplement is designed to be fed with a complete and balanced commercial food the amounts of vitamins and minerals are very low (as they are with most pet supplements). To ensure your dog is getting all the trace nutrients he needs I’d recommend either supplementing with a human multivitamin – base the dosage off a 100 lb. person (i.e. 25 lb. dog gets 1/4 human dosage, 50 lb. dog gets 1/2 human dosage, 75 lb. dog gets 3/4 human dosage, 100 lbs.+ gets human dosage) – or adding whole food supplements. I prefer to avoid synthetic supplements for my dogs so I feed a variety of nutrient-dense whole food supplements like kelp, alfalfa, bee pollen, spirulina, wheatgrass, glandulars, sprouted nuts & seeds, etc.
“Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a fantastic resource for raw feeding. It’s a really great book for beginners – short and easy to understand and includes AAFCO compliant recipes. You may want to checkout this book. It was a constant resource for me when I first started feeding homemade raw.
Raw should be about 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organs(half should be liver). I also add fish oil, superfoods, and a whole foods vitamin supplement. An easy way to get started balancing your raw is to get a premix.
Kinda funny – they also have fish oil salad dressing??? But the fish oil concentrate with E looks like a good product.
What does anyone think about the fish oil products from this company? http://www.seapet.com/fishoils.aspx
Or any of their other products?
Well, I returned the Earthborn back to the store today and we are going to go thru another bag of the Fromm’s Duck & Sweet Potato before we try a different grain free. Even with yogurt (plain greek) and/or pumpkin his stool just was not consistent in any way. So back to his old food and as soon as the swanson order arrives I’ll start adding probiotics/enzymes/fish oil and then choose another grain free (kibble and/or kibble plus topper) to try.
Hi Rambo and Fancy –
Another “prescription” option that would be much higher quality than the Hill’s prescription food is one of the formulas from Rayne Clinical Nutrition. They have a low protein formula for dogs with liver issues. The ingredients are: sweet potato, water, egg, butternut squash, canola oil, sunflower oil, vitamin and mineral mixture, fish oil, calcium. It’s 11.2% protein on a dry matter basis. The foods come in trays, probably similar in texture to a canned food, and are made using human-grade ingredients. I have no idea what the prices are (not cheap, I’m sure), but if it’s something do-able for you it’d be something to talk to your vet about. I’m not sure if you have your dog on a support supplement – but Standard Process has some good supplements that are available through veterinarians only. They have a “Canine Hepatic Support” supplement that utilizes herbs and glandulars that are known to support the liver. Just some more things to think about.
I do the same thing when I get on Swanson…once I start ordering I can’t stop. I dropped over $200 on my last order lol. Good choice with the Carlson fish oil, it’s what I use for my dogs. I think it’s one of the highest quality fish oils and one of only a few brands I trust to not be contaminated.
DinOvite is a powdered whole food supplement that is primarily flax and kelp. I’ve used it in their Yeast Starvation Diet as half of my dogs daily food and had great results, but I haven’t used it added to a regular kibble. I liked it well enough that I will use it again. You do need to add fish oil to it.
Hi texasniteowl –
Completely understandable that you can’t do raw, it’s not possible for the majority but I thought I’d put it out there is case it was a potential option. I raw feed my crew of three large, extremely active bloodhounds and it gets very time consuming and expensive.
As for toppers – yes, all you would need to do is account for the calories. Generally speaking, the average 13.2 oz. can of dog food as roughly the same amount of calories as an 8 oz. measuring cup of dry kibble.
For fish oil you will want to go by combined EPA/DHA amounts. 100 – 150 mg. mg combined DHA and EPA per 10 lbs. is the general recommendation and what I’d suggest starting with, although I’ve seen sources recommend up to 300 mg. combined DHA/EPA per 10 lbs. for dogs with health issues. The product you’re looking at has a combined EPA/DHA of 610 per serving so that would be just about perfect for your 62 lb. dog.
Human probiotics are perfectly fine for dogs. In fact, I feel that they’re generally higher quality and (oddly) they typically cost less per dose. You certainly can go with a probiotic supplement marketed for dogs, but it’s not necessary. Just look for one with as many strains as possible. If you go with a human supplement, adjust the serving size accordingly. I’d give a 62 lb. dog 1/2 the recommended human dose (although there’s no need to stress about dosages too much as probiotics aren’t something that will harm your dog if you were to accidentally “overdose”).
Thank you both Patty and Hound Dog Mom for your input. I recognize that RAW may be best but it seems intimidating and/or time consuming and/or expensive…and prepackaged/prepared *is* expensive. (Wilson weighs a little over his target weight of 62lbs…we’re currently at 66lb and going down slowly.)
So we do need to stick to dry kibble…at least for now.
I guess I’m leaning towards sticking with the bag of Earthborn Great Plains…at least to finish it…don’t know that I will buy it again. I do have some pumpkin I can add to his meals so I hope that will help with the alternate straining/soft movements. (Also, for what it’s worth, the Great Plains has a guaranteed protein of 34%…lower than the primitive at 38% yes, but much higher than the Fromm’s he was on (27% iirc).)
I will start looking at the options again to try to figure out which to try next. Also, I *am* open to using a topper…either freeze dried or canned. I suppose I just need to account for the calories, right? The rough calorie spot for Wilson’s kibble is 950-975 calories/day. He’s not extremely active…we do around a 1 mile walk daily and he doesn’t get all that many treats. On the Fromm’s, this target had him losing very slowly so I could cut it slightly a bit more, but I’m OK with the extra 5-6 lbs coming off slow.
I have been planning to add fish oil…or Omega 3…supplements. Am confused on amount…do I worry about the amount of epa/dha individually or combined? Example, one product I am looking at has a serving of 2 capsules. That serving contains 360 epa and 250 dha (with the two combined being 610). Is that enough for a dog his size or should I be looking to double that?
I had also been starting to look into Probiotics…HDM I see you listed several human probiotics…no problems with these? I had been looking at Nusentia’s Probiotic Miracle or NWC Naturals Total-biotics but the Swanson for example would be much less expensive.
sigh…apparently I can write novel like responses as well as original posts ;>
Hi crazy4cats –
Feeding a variety of red meat, poultry and fish (or if not feeding fish, supplementing with quality fish oil) is very important. Different meats have different amino acid profiles, it’s important to feed a variety so your dog gets a full spectrum of amino acids. Even two different types of poultry – say, chicken versus turkey – will have completely different amino acid profiles. Rotating for this reason isn’t quite as critical when feeding balanced commercial kibble or canned foods as it would be with feeding a home cooked or raw diet as commercial diets should be formulated to include adequate levels of essential amino acids, but it’s still important. Different meats also contain different types of fat: poultry is high in polyunsaturated fats (especially linoleic acid) and low in saturated fats and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), ruminants are high in saturated fats and low in polyunsaturated fats and DHA and fish is, typically, rich in DHA. Feeding your dogs a variety of different protein sources will help balance the fats in their diet. It’s important that dogs (and cats) consume a balanced spectrum of fats, in order to do this they will need to consume a variety of red meats and poultry supplemented with fatty fish or fish oil or it will be necessary to balance the fats in their food – this would involve supplementing red meat recipes with alpha linolenic acid (ALA), Linoleic Acid (LA) and DHA (walnut oil or hemp oil or canola oil in addition to a fatty fish or fish oil) and supplementing poultry recipes with ALA and DHA (chia seeds or flax and fish or fish oil). I don’t know of any kibble or canned food manufacturer that balances the fats in their foods so it’s best to feed a variety. I personally prefer single protein group foods – red meat, poultry, fish but a food that contains both poultry and red meat would be better than only feeding poultry based foods or only feeding red meat based foods. When I fed kibble I’d cycle between a red meat based food, then a poultry based food then a fish based food. Red meat would be beef, lamb, venison, bison, pork, etc. Poultry would be chicken, turkey, duck, etc. In addition to the reasons stated, I like red meat (for my homemade raw diets) because I have a greater variety of organ meat to choose from. When feeding poultry the only option is liver (gizzards and hearts count as muscle meat), this isn’t enough variety. So I typically feed red meat organs because I can get liver, kidney, lungs, spleen, pancreas – I can also get healthy “by-products” such as trachea, gullet and green tripe.
Anyone try these “Dinovites” as advertised on the radio? What exactlly are they made of and are they even good for your pets? We’ve swtiched to a 4 star rated dog food for our older dog. He’s always had a bad itchy/smelly problem form about June- Oct comes on slow and then progresses…..seems to be seasonal, but since we’ve switched to NO grain dog food – 4 star – he doesn’t get as bad and doesn’t last as long. Also, in that period of time we us probiotics and extra fish oil….sometimes Benedryl.
Anyway, just want to know about Dinovites?
Hi texasniteowl –
You may want to get your boy on some supplements that will help his allergies – quercitin, nettle, burdock root and perilla leaf, omega 3’s, bromelain, papain and coconut oil are all supplements shown to help ease allergy symptoms. Aunt Jeni’s sells a supplement called “Enhance Allergy Aid” with vitamin c, burdock root, quercitin and biotin. Vet’s Best sells a supplement called “Seasonal Allergy Support” with bioflavinoids, nettle leaf, vitamin c, perilla leaf and quercitin. You may want to consider purchasing one of these or a similar supplement and giving him some fish oil and coconut oil daily.
If your he is indeed allergic to your grass you should bathe him frequently in an herbal shampoo (avoid oatmeal-based shampoos) and have a foot soak ready to use after he’s been outdoors (you can make a solution using 1 gal. water, 1 c. hydrogen peroxide and 1-4 c. white vinegar or you can mix povidone iodine with water). Soak his feet every time he comes indoors so he’s not tracking the allergen through your house and vacuum frequently.
You should make sure his food is low in carbohydrates as high carbohydrate diets are “pro-inflammatory” and can worsen allergy symptoms. Your best bet, as Patty mentioned, would be a balanced raw diet. If that’s not possible a high protein canned or dehydrated food would be the next best option. If you must feed kibble keep it high protein. My top picks for kibble would be Orijen (38-40% protein), Nature’s Variety Instinct (35 – 42% protein), EVO (42-52% protein), Solid Gold’s Barking at the Moon (41% protein), Artemis Maximal (42% protein) Earthborn Primitive Natural (38% protein) or Wysong Epigen (60% protein). If you can at least top the kibble with balanced raw or a high quality canned or dehydrated food, this would be better than kibble alone.
Supplementing with probiotics is known to help allergies as well. I would recommend adding a high quality multi-strain probiotic to the food such as Mercola Probiotics, Garden of Life Primal Defense, Dr. Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15 Strain Probiotic with FOS or Swanson’s Soil-Based Organisms. Probiotics may help firm up his stool as well. Some other ideas to help firm him up would be adding a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin to each meal and supplementing with digestive enzymes.
Remember it may take several weeks for things to clear up. Good luck!
I would like to know if there is a problem/your experience with feeding 1/2 kibble 1/2 raw in a single meal. I also add a Tbsp of yogurt, fish oil and probiotics, I am currently using Great Life Probiotic & Enzyme. Their other meal is kibble with veggies, yogurt, coconut oil and probiotics. I use commercial raw like Vital Essentials or Small Batch Pet or K9 Natural. They expect something on the top of their food that is why I don’t do veggie and raw as one meal. I do also feed freeze dry raw instead of raw a couple times per week so they get variety. Maybe too much variety? I have one dog with a gurgly stomach the younger one is fine.
9 year old 75 pound dog’s lab work showed dilute urine specific gravity (1.007) and slightly high creatinine (1.7 vs. range of 0.5 – 1.6 mg/dL). Other kidney numbers were good. This dog often drinks a lot, leading to lower specific gravity. The vet suggested going to a Senior Food to get a bit less protein, so his kidneys have less work.
My dog is on Ziwipeak dyhydrated raw food (it’s not raw once dyhydrated) with “quality” protein and no grains etc. It’s pretty much all meat. He get’s 6 scoops per day, with fish oil and some other supplements (Missing Link and Sea Meal). I was focused on the percent protein (36%), but not on the total quantity. Doing the math it seems he’s been getting 122 gm protein per day!!
I now understand the guideline for older dogs is about 2 gms/ per kg (or about 1 gm/ pound), which is slightly more than for adult dogs. Based on this he should be getting about 75 gms/day.
I’m thinking rather than going to a commercial senior dog food with grains and other things, why not just give him less Ziwipeak and augment with vegetables? More so, as he seems allergic to meats other than venison. I was thinking of going down to 4 scoops (about 80 gm protein) per day, which is the recommended amount, and giving him vegetables such as pumpkin, sweet potato, or cauliflower or a combination to make sure he gets the same amount of food he is used to (he’s on the skinny side of normal)
Does that make sense? Other suggestions?
Hi everyone, I haven’t been on here in a while but I just wanted to let y’all know that shadow is doing fabulous on raw. He used to have little red bumps on his tummy, runny poop, and was pretty slim. Since he has been on raw, the bumps are gone, his poop is great, and he has added muscle weight. Right now he is eating chicken leg quarters, necks and backs, thighs, turkey necks, wings, ground beef, ground chicken, ground turkey, and canned salmon and mackerel. I have also found a local who can order green tripe for me from blue ridge raw. I bought five pounds on it and can’t wait to try it! I have finally gotten comfortable feeding raw! I also add hard boiled eggs, sweet potatoes, various green veggies, fish oil, kelp, and vitamin e. I plan on giving him a whole chicken this weekend!
Hi, I made my own dog food, with chicken, mince,oats, vegies, Fish oil. eggs, vitamins etc. But how much of that do I feed daily to a Jack Russel size dog. He is 13 and not very active, never has been, and 7.4 kilo. perfect wait according to the vet. I don’t want to give him to much.
I can’t drink ACV myself, not even with water and honey. I can swig dill pickle juice which has some of the same properties, and I can handle oil and vinegar salad dressing every day. I also like a little vinegar on fish and in marinades. So that is what I do to get the stuff into me. To get it into the dogs, I always dilute with water. It has quite a bite if you don’t, I think it burns all the way down, which makes me want to regurgitate too.
Did a bit more digging:
“The iodine content of fish is quite variable. In general, marine fish have more iodine than fresh water fish, and a significant part of the iodine is in the head of the fish (where the thyroid is). Here are some typical amounts for some common fish, in mcg/100g: Cod (110), Haddock (250), Herring (29), Mackerel (140), Sardines (29), Tuna (30), Atlantic Salmon (76), Rainbow Trout (13). Here are a few ranges to give you a sense of the variability of iodine in fish (mg/100g): Haddock (60 – 920), Pollack (23 – 266), Cod (18 – 1270).”
“Iodine levels in seaweed are quite variable, depending primarily on the type of seaweed. Kelp has the highest amount of iodine, with some kelp granules having 8165 mcg/gm. Most Kelp or Kombu has about 2500 mcg/gm. Other common seaweeds are much lower; for example, Nori (16 mcg/gm), Wakame (32 mcg/gm), Dulse (72 mcg/gm), Hijiki (629 mcg/gm). Iodine content is reduced by storage (e.g., in paper bags or open to the air) and cooking. Most of the iodine in seaweed comes in the form of iodide, but it varies depending on the type of seaweed. Absorption of the iodine from seaweed is variable. Seaweed contains lots of stuff besides iodine, some may be useful (e.g., other minerals) and some may be harmful (e.g., goitrogens like bromide and various chemicals like mercury contaminants). Large amounts of seaweed may be problematic.”
“We are still trying to get accurate information on iodine in Cod Liver Oil. Carlson’s reports none, and the Nutrition Reference Library reports 838 mcg per 100 grams oil. The other companies we have asked did not know, or did not tell us.”
The amount of iodine in a fish oil will depend on what type of fish oil you’re using and it can even vary from brand to brand. For example, cod is rather high in iodine so a cod liver oil will contain more iodine than some other types of fish oil. The best thing to do would be to contact the company that manufactures your fish oil you’re using to obtain the exact iodine levels. If you have the patience, you could contact the company for each food you feed to obtain the iodine levels, contact Solid Gold to get the iodine levels of the supplement and get the iodine levels of the fish oil and see what type of daily iodine intake you’re looking at. He shouldn’t be getting more than 50 mg. iodine per kilogram of food.
OK, maybe he said hyperthyroidism and I confused the two.
So, it does sound that whether it’s whole fish, fish meal, fish oil or kelp, it’ll all have iodine.
Funny, but iodine deficiency is a leading cause of hypothyroidism. That’s the first thing they try when your thyroid is underfunctioning, increasing iodine. they(whoever they is) say there is an epidemic of hypothyroidism now, because all the salt conscious people are not using iodizes salt and not replacing the iodine elsewhere.
Fish and crustaceans that eat algae have higher iodine levels and since I’m hypothyroid, I’m supposed to eat them or a kelp supplement regularly.
I took Sam to see the fabulous Dr. Dan tonight. Dr. Dan one of my vets, he practices TCVM, and has been doing chiropractic adjustments on Sam, my Golden pup. I was asking Dr. Dan some nutrition questions tonight and told him I was using Solid Gold Seameal and asked what he thought about it. He said to be conservative with it due to the amount of iodine it contains. He said that commercial dog foods contain quite a bit of iodine due to the amount of fish they contain and how that can lead to hypothyroidism. I got a little derailed and started yapping about fish meals and now, of course, I’m home and got to wondering if fish, fish meal and fish oil all contain iodine? I found his point fascinating because so many, if not most, dog foods contain some sort of fish, fish meal or fish oil.
So my question is this… is the concentration of iodine the same in fish, fish meal and fish oil?
THank you so much for pointing me towards the right area. I hopped on over and read the article only to find the possibility that ethoxyquin and arsenic might be lurking in my dogs’ food! Since I’ve been fighting he good fight to give my dogs safe and nutritious food since the beginning, I immediately phoned the Nutro company.
Apparently, the supplier for the fish meal in Ultra doesn’t use ethoxyquin in the raw product and that Nutro tests their fish meal to be absolutely sure of this.
As for arsenic in the rice, dog food stands the same chance as any rice product on the market, pet or human, for having trace amounts of this. Arsenic can be present naturally in the soil and again, Nutro tests for this and meets the FDA standards in this regard. In effect, my dogs have no more chances of getting arsenic poisoning from their dinner than I do of expiring after my rice pilaf.
I am relieved. Ultra is back in my good books. Perhaps the admins could move this thread into the nutrition section for further debate?
abby13 –
All oil has the same amount of fat and all is high in fat – oil is pure fat. 1 tsp. of krill oil has the same amount of fat as 1 tsp. salmon oil. I’m not sure what the fat levels are in the foods you’re feeding but if you’re keeping fat levels low this could be a big reason why she has dry skin. Fat is necessary for healthy skin and coat (in addition to many other things). If she has dry skin I would keep her on a food with at least 15% fat. Supplementing with fish or krill oil would be a good idea too – I’m not sure how big she is, but I posted a dosage chart above. Coconut oil is another fat that is known to help improve skin and coat quality. Remember, dogs have no dietary requirement for carbohydrates and can thrive on protein and fat alone – dogs utilize fat for energy and can tolerate much higher fat levels than people. I’m not sure if you bathe her, but if she has dry skin I’d also watch the number of baths you give. If you bathe her too frequently that can dry the skin. When you do bathe her, make sure to use a moisturizing shampoo and conditioner. Daily brushing can also help to distribute the oils in the fur and help moisturize the skin.
I bought krill from Mercola for my dogs. It comes in a super convenient airless pump bottle. One pump per ten pounds of body weight. Clean, neat, easy, quality.
Unfortunately, I’ve discovered that the dog I bought it for seems to turn her nose up at most things fishy. The other dog who doesn’t really need it, loves it. Go figure. I have yet to find a kibble or canned food that is fish protein based that Dog A really likes. She will, however, devour a tinned sardine. She eats high quality kibble, canned toppers and the occasional meal of Darwin’s raw, but the black part of her coat (she’s a tri-color Cavalier) still isn’t that shiny in some places ~ in particular, on her rump. I use organic coconut oil, but not as regularly as I should to really see the benefit in her coat quality. I also add an occasional raw egg. I’m thinking my next supplement of choice will be Solid Gold Sea Meal.
Why are you wanting to supplement with oil? Is there something you’re hoping to correct?
doggiedog –
No single food meets all of a living thing’s needs and whole food derived nutrients are far superior to synthetically added vitamins and minerals. I “supplement” my dogs’ food – but not with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They get super foods such as spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen; healthy fats such as fish oil, coconut oil, etc.; foods rich in enzymes and probiotics; healthy herbs like turmeric and garlic; etc. What I feed my dogs is so naturally rich in vitamins and minerals that I don’t need to add anything synthetic. I don’t trust a dog food company to add everything needed to keep my dogs’ immune systems in peak condition – because there is no dog food that does this. Chemically synthesized vitamins and minerals are more likely to be tainted, pose a greater risk for overdose and aren’t utilized as efficiently by the body – in whole foods, nutrients work synergistically with hundreds of other compounds and many of these compounds have different forms in nature and can only be found in whole foods. Synthetic supplements have been linked to increased risk of cancer and increases in lifestyle diseases in people – why wouldn’t it be the same for our pets? Many medical organizations advise against the consumption of synthetic vitamins and minerals for humans. This is why foods should be rotated so a dog isn’t overexposed to anything. Your statement that different breeds need different foods isn’t accurate – or at least shouldn’t be accurate if a dog is eating an appropriate food. “a bulldog, which is prone to digestion issue, excessive gas, and weight gain” – probiotics and enzymes address digestive issues and gas, if a dog were eating a fresh species-appropriate diet rich in natural enzymes and probiotics this wouldn’t be an issue; dogs that are overweight don’t need a special food, they need their portion size (calories) reduced, weight loss is based on calories in and calories out not fat content or caloric-density of a food. “Poodle, which is prone to cataracts, dementia, and has a fully curly coat” – again, if eating a high quality species-appropriate foods the chances of any of these “tendencies” causing an issue would be greatly reduced. High quality foods have balanced ratios of quality omega 3 and 6 fatty acids for the coat health and whole food antioxidants help with health issues such as cataracts and dementia. Low-grade foods like RC, SD, Purina, etc. have to add supplements because their base ingredients are so low quality and nutritionally devoid. Luckily for these companies there are tons of people out there like you and veggienut that actually believe synthetically supplemented corn puffs with a picture of your breed on your bag are the best thing to feed.
Hdm- ok thanks for the reminder I thought it was 200 iu daily. I also plan on introducing organ meat in small amounts probably tomorrow, shadows tummy is upset very easily do I’m trying to do things gradual. I have been giving him some canned salmon with his dosage of vitamin e, fish oil, and kelp in a kong for a treat while I’m gone. Is it ok to freeze those ingredients?
Hi weimlove!
Glad to hear Shadow is finally on a 100% raw diet 🙂
It looks like you’re off to a great start! Just wanted to remind you that a dog Shadow’s size should be getting 400 i.u. vitamin d per day – some good sources are cod liver oil, cage free eggs, kefir, some varieties of yogurt and cottage cheese (check the label), oily fish (sardines, mackerel, salmon) and beef liver. 10% of his diet should also consist of organ meat (5% liver, 5% other organs) – this can be fed as one or two completely organ meals per week or small amounts of organ meat can be fed each day. And don’t forget variety once you make his next menu – lots of different types of meat and different fruits and vegetables.
Unfortunately, I can’t help you too much with the storage issue. Maybe invest in some tupperware containers? It would probably be cheaper in the long run rather than using ziplock bags all the time. All my dogs eat through a batch of food in one day so I don’t have to worry about freezing portions.
Hi everyone!
I have finally got Shadow eating a COMPLETELY raw diet 🙂
Since this is his first week of no kibble at all, I wanted to share my menu with you all and see what you think. Please keep in mind that this menu has extra bone in it to help keep his stool firm over the transition and next week I will add less bone.
What I did so far is pre-package a week’s worth of meals in freezer bags.
The meals include:
– 1 half of a chicken leg quarter
–1 small peice of a chicken back
– 1 chicken wing
– 3/4 of a pound of ground chicken
– 3/4 pound of sweet potatoes
– 100 iu vitamin E
– 1 tsp of a kelp/alfalfa mix powder (petkelp)
– 1 pump of fish oil that also contains a small amount of vitamin E
Shadow is given this meal twice a day. So far, his stool has been great, and extremely small! He also seems more excited to eat his meals, and I love the fact that it cleans his teeth too! Does anyone have an easier way for storing meals? The freezer bags are kinda pricey! Thanks!
Hi Shihtzumom20 –
I just checked out Big Country Raw’s website – I’m jealous that you can get this food, the price is great! $2.50/lb. for pre-mixed food is very reasonable. I’m not too far from some of the retailers (I’m on the Canadian border) unfortunately I think a law was passed recently making it illegal to transport pet food across the border.
I can’t find a statement of nutritional adequacy on the website and it does appear there are a few things missing that you will need to supplement to make the food balanced. First of all, yes you will want to add omega 3’s as there aren’t any added to the food. Follow the dosage chart I posted previously. Second, after reading the ingredients for each of their foods I can tell you that there are inadequate levels of vitamin e and vitamin d. Vitamin e is difficult to supply in adequate quantities through food alone and therefore should be supplemented. It will be especially critical that you supplement with vitamin e once you start adding omega 3’s as consumption of omega 3’s increases the the fat soluble antioxidant requirement. As a general rule supplement about 50 I.U. vitamin e per 20 lbs. If you get capsules with a high dosage (most come in 200 IU or 400 IU) you can just give one whole capsule 2-3 times per week. For the vitamin d, there is some vitamin d in beef liver (about 50 IU per 4 oz.), but not all of the formulas contain beef liver and even for the formulas that do, I doubt that there is enough to fulfill vitamin d requirements. Vitamin d can be added in supplement form or (more preferably) in whole food form. Some foods that are rich in vitamin d: cod liver oil (~400 IU per tsp.), cage free eggs (~30-50 IU per egg), Kefir (~100 IU per cup), oily fish (amount of vitamin d present varies on the type of fish but sardines, mackerel and salmon are generally considered good sources), some varieties of plain yogurt and cottage cheese are supplemented with vitamin d (check the label). Your dog should be getting about 200 IU vitamin D per pound of food consumed. Also, rotate between all their protein sources – don’t rely on one – this will provide him with the greatest balance. You may also want to consider adding another whole food supplement, I see kelp is is added to a few of the varieties. Kelp is great and supplies a lot of trace nutrients but the more variety the better, especially when a dog is deriving all of their nutrition from whole foods and not relying on synthetically added vitamins and minerals. My dogs get kelp and they also get things like spirulina, alfalfa, wheat grass, bee pollen, chlorella, etc. I switch up their supplements frequently. It says they offer a vitamin/mineral supplement but it doesn’t list the ingredients, you could check that out.
Yes, RMB’s are a wonderful source of glucosamine and chondroitin. Because he’s young and he’s a small breed not prone to joint issues, RMB’s should provide all the joint support he needs for now. I wouldn’t worry about a joint supplement until he’s a senior.
Hi Hound Dog Mom,
So here is the chicken dinner ingredients:
Big Country Chicken Dinner
Ingredients
Ground chicken with bone, beef liver, fruit and vegetable puree. Garlic and kelp.
A complete and balanced meal choice. Protein-max 16%. Fat-min 12%. Moisture-62%. Fibre-2.6%
The chicken dinner has the highest fat, the rest are not over 10%. Of course I don’t really know how to convert it to dry matter basis, I did see how on here but I think my calculation was way off, lol!
Other than the fish I don’t see any fish oil added, would you say to add in the krill oil? I think they want you to feed the fish dinner every now and again, but they use cod, haddock or sole.
I guess I will hold off the joint supplement, do rmb’s help supply glucosamine and chrondroitin? He is getting his first chicken wing for his evening meal! I am so excited, I showed it to him and he wanted to take it so I think he will like the true raw diet! But he is still young with no issues so far, so since he is getting it naturally I think he will be good for now!
Thanks for all your help HDM! He is at me right now for his chicken wing!
And I like your schedule for vaccinating, I think I personally would feel better if he got his one year shots, and then I might titer him at 2 and go from there.
Hi Shihtzumim20 –
Krill oil is great because it’s low in contaminants and contains a very potent naturally occuring antioxidant called astaxanthin. If the food already has added omega 3’s (fish oil) use the krill oil sparingly because, yes, you can give your dog too much of a good thing. Here’s a dosage chart for fish/krill oil:
-250 mg. daily for toy breeds and cats (1 – 14 lbs.)
-500 mg. daily for small dogs (15 – 29 lbs.)
-1,000 mg. daily for medium dogs (30 – 49 lbs.)
-1,500 mg. daily for large dogs (50 – 79 lbs.)
-2,000 mg. daily for dogs 80+ lbs.
When your dog is on a raw diet that includes bones and cartilage there won’t be as much of a need for a joint supplement because bones/cartilage are full of naturally occurring glucosamine and chondroitin. If you have a senior dog or a dog with an orthopedic problem, however, a supplement may still be necessary. After heavy activity my senior gets a few capsules of Wysong’s Arthegic (my favorite joint supplement). It’s marketed as a human supplement but great for dogs too. Wysong even includes a dosage chart for dogs on their website. It contains boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate.
I personally vaccinate my dogs as puppies (parvo/distemper at 8 weeks, 11 weeks, 14 weeks and a rabies at 16 weeks) and then I vaccinate 1 year after their last puppy booster. I don’t vaccinate again other than rabies every 3 years to comply with law. This is something you need to research yourself and decide what you are comfortable doing with your dog. Some people vaccinate every year, some every 3 years, some like I do, some only do puppy shots and others don’t vaccinate at all. Check out healthypets.mercola.com- Dr. Becker has some great information and videos on vaccinating.
Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Thanks so much for your reply! After doing some more research I decided to still go with a premade raw, it is a small company and all the ingredients are human grade, and from southern Ontario. It is called Big Country Raw. I have been looking at supplements and have been thinking of adding Krill oil to his raw. Would this be recommended? They do have a fish dinner, but it has salmon and tuna in it, so I think I would like to avoid that. Should I start supplementing him with Krill Oil? I like the benefits, then I read on another forum here that too many Omega 3’s can be bad too. So I was wondering what you guys think of that? And also do you guys use a joint supplement for your dogs? I have been trying to research on the internet but having been having much luck in whether to supplement or not. He is only a year and a bit, so I don’t know if I should wait to start a joint supplement or if it is beneficial to start him on it young. Also if someone could direct me to the vaccinating thread that would be greatly appreciated(if there is one)! He is coming up to his 1 year shots and I am not sure whether to get them or not, any advice on supplementing and vaccinating are greatly appreciated, thanks so much guys!
