[beaglemom]

SandyandMila/HDM… haha I just had to comment on this (though I know it was awhile ago). HDM you must never have joined the “rawfeeding” yahoo group! They are “interesting” to say the least… I definitely come here first but here’s the lessons this list wants you to believe: dogs need zero supplements, ever; all dogs need to eat is meat meat meat (and a little bone and a little organs); bones don’t clean teeth, tearing at meat chunks does; necks of any sort have no place in the diet unless attached to the animal; ground meat is evil; veggies and fruits are evil; tripe is useless. LOL. I will join the “thank goodness i found this site” crowd and also to tie in to the topic of this thread, I am expecting my first Hare Today order on Wednesday and can’t wait!!! (And it includes duck necks!!!) 🙂

[FreeholdHound]

Posted on Hare Today thread… He was in Houndie heaven and sleeping it off…

[theBCnut]

It will probably revive him. 🙂

[FreeholdHound]

Well the turkey neck is waiting in the fridge, so tonight’s the night. Of course we were out all morning at a huge dog event raising $ for breast cancer & he’s exhausted, but hopefully not too tired to chew 🙂

[SandyandMila]

Thanks for the heads up about the pork neck bones, I’ll make sure to keep an eye on that. I had read somewhere online that they suggested feeding them with beef hearts but wasn’t sure if that was correct due to feeding beef with pork.

[Hound Dog Mom]

When I plan on portioning food out to re-freeze, I let it thaw just long enough that I can get a knife through it. The less thawing the better. For my fridge, overnight usually works.

I’ve actually never used Hare Today’s mutton. I’ve just always gone with MPC’s Ground Lamb Supreme because it contains tripe and when there’s an opportunity to fill my kitchen with the lovely stench of tripe I take it! 🙂 I’ve never contacted MPC to verify for sure, but I would assume the Ground Lamb Supreme has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio – I’ve always fed it as is with no problems. It’s 50% ground ribs which should contain a high level of bone/calcium + the 15% tripe which has a 1:1 ratio which wouldn’t affect anything + the 25% heart and 10% organ meat which should reduce the ratio (which I’d assume is high from the ribs). At 10% the organ ratio is good.

Pork necks are typically very high in bone, so I’d make sure the meal just prior to the pork neck meal or just after the pork neck meal is heavy on muscle meat. You also may find that she passes some undigested bone when she just starts on pork necks. Pork necks are a lot denser than poultry RMBs and sometimes it takes dogs awhile to adjust to digesting the denser bones.

[SandyandMila]

Thanks! It was taken last weekend, she finally got to go back to the dog park. She had so much fun!! 🙂 I just got my first Hare Today order delivered (turkey necks, turkey hearts, green tripe). How long should I thaw them for so I can portion them out? And also, I noticed you use the ground lamb supreme from MPC when u feed lamb, do you prefer it to Hare Today’s lamb/mutton? Is the lamb supreme in the correct meat/bone/organ meat ratio or does it need anything added to balance it out? I like it that it also has tripe. I’ll probably feed it in about a month or two but would just like your expertise. It’ll probably be my next order. She’s loved her raw so far, didn’t really need a long transition and no digestion issues. She’s going to love the long turkey necks, she’s only had the cut ones from the grocery store. I’m going to start also giving her pork neck bones next week, do i have to add any extra muscle/organ meat or tripe to it to balance it out? Sorry this is in the wrong section of the forum, if you feel more comfortable please leave your reply on the raw food section, when you can of course. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Aussie Mom –

Homemade raw is actually much cheaper than pre-made raw. I spend just under $200 a month to feed my girls a homemade raw diet – for comparative purposes it would cost me nearly $800 per month to feed Darwin’s (based on the average cost of all of their formulas). There are many ways to keep costs low when feeding a homemade raw diet: 1) Utilize raw meaty bones (chicken backs, turkey necks, etc.) – they are much cheaper per pound than boneless meat and if fed in appropriate quantities will eliminate the need for a calcium supplement; 2) Use heart, gizzards and green tripe for the muscle meat component of the diet – these items are cheap and nutritious, dogs have no need for expensive cuts of meat such as boneless skinless chicken breast or beef sirloin; 3) Buy in bulk. I purchase my meat from a wholesaler that supplies restaurants and grocery stores – nearly every item I buy is under $1 per pound; 4) Purchase supplements from a human nutritional store, in bulk when possible – this is much cheaper than buying supplements marketed towards pets. I purchase all supplements for both myself and my dog from Swanson’s – best prices I’ve seen. I make my own green supplement by purchasing the ingredients I want in 1 lb. bags and combining them.

Hare Today is great – I do purchase a few things from there (mostly Green Tripe). Their products are not human grade as they contain things like green tripe, ground bone, fur/feathers (for whole prey grinds) that are not suitable for human consumption (but very nutritious for animals) and the products aren’t processed in a human food facility. Using Hare Today grinds may be slightly cheaper than pre-made raw but if you really want to cut costs you need to do it from scratch – many butchers will sell RMBs and offal cheaply as they’re not desirable for humans or hook up with a supplier like I did.

If you’re interested in homemade raw I would highly recommend purchasing “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown. It’s wonderful book for beginners and includes AAFCO compliant recipes that are easy to make and utilize easy to find and cheap ingredients. Dogaware(dot)com is also a great online resource.

[FreeholdHound]

He’s got to try them sometime as I’ll need the freezer room & I want to give him bones for his teeth.Greyhounds and anesthesia dont mix well & he just had a dental so i want to keep those choppers as clean as possible. He is not a fan of brushing, but he’s getting there slowly.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yep Patty – those are a couple of deer (something? I don’t even know if they’re legs, I don’t remember) bones!

[SandyandMila]

Speaking of thawing, I have a 5 pound box of pork neck bones that have been in the freezer for a few weeks, how long do I thaw them for so that I can be able to portion it out? I took it out of the box they were in but left them in the bag and put it in the fridge.

[pugmomsandy]

My pugs love gnawing on cow hoof too. It’s hard enough that they don’t eat it.

[FreeholdHound]

Glad I found this thread – safe bones (for cleaning teeth) are of huge interest to me. It’s a common Greyhound problem 🙁

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay gotcha. No, what we feed wouldn’t be considered “prey model.” Those that follow prey model believe dogs should eat meat, bones and organs only – nothing else. Many refer to ground raw meat and veggie diets as “BARF” style. I would consider my feeding style to be a BARF/Prey Model Hybrid. My dogs get a prey model style dinner each night (RMBs and whole offal) but their breakfast is ground with veggies and whole food supplements.

As far as garlic it’s very beneficial if given in small quantities but I’m not sure how much it would increase the palatability. My girls get a couple cloves three days per week. Garlic is a natural broad-spectrum antibiotic. Garlic is also a prebiotic and contains antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral and anti-carcinogenic properties. The sulfur content also acts as a natural insect repellent. You’d want to give the following amounts 3 – 4 days per week: under 10 lbs – 1/4 clove; 10 to 20 lbs. – half a clove; 20 to 50 lbs. – 1 clove; 50 to 75 lbs. – 2 cloves; 75 to 100 lbs. – 2 and a half cloves; 100 lbs. and over – 3 cloves.

[beagleowner]

Started making dog food for Henry beagle. Consists of ground chicken thighs or lean hamburger, sweet potatoes, kale, peas, carrots, eggs. We are feeding him 2-1/2cups per day. He did weigh 48.4 lbs. and now is at 45.6. Our vet would like to see him get to 40 lbs. We also bought marrow soup bones and after he eats one, we fill it with pumpkin, freeze it and give as a nighttime treat. It makes his stoold loose. He is 14 yrs old and of course loves to eat. We also give him two chewable glucosamine tabs a day and one omega-3capsule that our vet suggested and sold to us.. Henry has lipomas (one very large). They have decreased on this homemade diet. My problem is that he is hungry and I am wondering if his nutrition is sound. (Of course I realize hounds can be constantly looking for food). I thought I could add some organic brown rice to his meal for bulk. When I called our vet to ask, the reply was to give him Hills ID, half homemade and half Hills. Well that puts me back to manufactured dog food. We were feeding him expensive kibble before and it contributed to his lipomas. Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. I don’t want to undo the good the homemade has done and yet I want to make sure he gets a good nutritious diet. We tried raw– no luck.

[SandyandMila]

I have a 5 lb. box of pork neck bones I haven’t opened yet because I’m waiting for my Hare Today order to come in. By then it’ll be about 3 weeks since putting them in the freezer and I’ll be starting and all raw diet. I think I’ll start with the neck bones and see how she likes it. Just wanted to know what others thought of ground pork. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Are you feeding a commercial raw diet or a homemade raw diet? If you’re feeding a commercial raw diet there would really be no need to add additional vegetables, but as long as they’re just added in small amounts I’m sure it would be fine. Sweet potatoes don’t get crunchy when baked so baked sweet potato wouldn’t add any crunch. A vegetable would have to be raw and in large pieces to be crunchy and dogs can’t efficiently digest vegetables in this form. Vegetables should be fed cooked and pureed. If you want to add crunch, feeding raw meaty bones (like turkey necks, chicken backs, etc.) would be a much better bet.

[Anonymous]

try holistic health extension DENTAL bones. they come in a few flavors and clean my dogs teeth great. I buy the fresh breath ones just so they he can have minty breath like the rest of us

[InkedMarie]

I won’t ever feed Evangers. Definitely not a reputable company.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI k9cancer –

Most dogs will overeat if given the chance – especially when they’re being fed a highly palatable diet (such as a raw diet). It’s very important to keep large and giant breed puppies lean during the growth phase as excess weight can increase the chances that the pup will develop an orthopedic condition. If his weight looks good do not feed him more. Just adjust his portions based on his weight – feed more if he looks too thin, less if he looks to heavy and keep portions as they are if his weight is healthy. The product packages are a good starting point for determining serving size but they aren’t always accurate – this is why it’s important to be constantly evaluating body condition. If he gets diarrhea again I’d recommend adding a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin and supplementing with probiotics, if he’s fine now you could also start adding a little plain yogurt or kefir to his meals daily to start building his gut strength. If you want to provide him with food that has a “crunchy” texture for his enjoyment I’d recommend opting for raw meaty bones rather than kibble. The raw meaty bones will provide him with crunching a chewing pleasure as well as dental benefits – you may also find that he feels more satisfied after eating RMBs. You could replace a few meals a week with RMBs such as turkey necks or chicken backs. You can feed the RMBs with a bit of boneless meat or whole offal (hearts, gizzards, livers, etc.) to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio.

[theBCnut]

Pick one out and see how easy it breaks apart, that’s my best advice.

[katj813]

I just want to make sure the bones are safe for my dog.

[pugmomsandy]

Merrick also has some canned foods with bones in it if you want to try another brand.

[lovemypets4life]

my pitbulls allergic to rawhide also and I bought him vets choice dental bones and he LOVES them, and I especially love the fresh breath ones

[3pooches]

I feed them commercial raw food. (I guess those are grinds?) Sometimes they get raw bones from the butcher, and those they don’t wolf down, but instead chew on happily in the backyard. 😉

I decided to buy more stainless steel balls from an online merchant and put two in the bowls of the faster eaters, and one large one in the bowl of the one who doesn’t inhale her food.

Thanks.

[theBCnut]

Usually when they prepare foods this way they pressure cook them, which makes the bones soft. I don’t consider Evangers to be a safe company though.

[katj813]

I was always under the impression that cooked bones were dangerous for dogs due to splintering. Evangers Hand-Packed Chicken Drummet dinner has whole chicken with bones in it. Is it safe to feed the bones to my dog or should I keep picking them out?

[lovemypets4life]

holistic health extension has a powder called “joint mobility” and it’ll help your dogs bones become stronger and help your dog live a healthier life

[husky3]

Hello,

I’m replying to my original post in regards to my Husky not losing any weight. We switched to a completely raw diet in February, and she is still gaining weight. 🙁 She weighs in at over 60 pounds now. She would have a poor body condition score. Can not feel ribs, or locate the spine or hip bones. Exercise has been a little less since it has been so hot lately, but I have also decreased her food amounts. Almost to the point that I’m not sure if she’s getting enough to sustain her daily needs. I don’t know what else to do at this point. I have two other Husky’s that are thriving! They have excellent body condition, and get just as much exercise, but with a lot more food, almost twice as much food!!

In May, we had an ultrasound done on her, and they said that there were some slight changes to her liver & kidneys, but nothing major. We also had her thyroid checked again, and ran tests for Cushings, Addisons, Diabetes, Diabetes Insipidous, and Atypical Cushings. They all came back negative. We ran an allergy panel as well, and she did have some environmental allergies that we are working on now with the drops.

While she tested negative for Atyp. Cushings, they did say her hormones were a little elevated, and we are treating that with Lignin and melatonin. I have seen a change in her attitude, for the better, but no weight loss.

She had an ear infection a couple weeks ago, and another one about 3 months ago, which is a new development. She also has red stained paws from her licking them, or perhaps it is a yeast overgrowth?

Does anyone have anything else to add to this conundrum? Any medical ailments that mimic cushings, or thyroid problems? At this point, I don’t think it can be diet related unless she is allergic to raw meat, and it’s not chicken.

Thank you for your help.
Tay

[lovemypets4life]

holistic health extension makes a powder called “joint mobility” and you just sprinkle it on your dogs food and it helps strengthen bones and joints while giving your dog relief of the pain

[InkedMarie]

Neezerfan: Hare Today comes in one and two pounders, too. Its only something like 20 cents more for the smaller chubs; it’s what I buy.

[theBCnut]

Betsy, you need a snood or a clothes pin or maybe a scrunchie.

[neezerfan]

Thank you all. HDM– baby steps, baby steps….

[NectarMom]

I have 4 dogs under 12lbs and I buy the 5lb packages of ground Rabbit and Venison and beef and tripe and what was suggested to me by Tracy the owner of Hare Today was to defrost the whole 5lbs and then individually bag in proportions enough for my 4 girls and then refreeze what I am not using that day and I have been doing this for a month with no issues.

[DogFoodie]

Two quick things…

1.) I had emailed My Pet Carnivore earlier (prior to posting my question here regarding trachea), but you guys responded first. In my limited experience with them, I will say this MPC has great customer service. I just thought I’d share their response regarding trachea:

“They are not considered any kind of bone, and we ourselves have fed
them as a treat (or a chew), but they would generally fall into the meat
category.”

2.) How do you give your pups a quick clean up after they’ve eaten a RMB? Bella’s ears and paws were a greasy mess after eating some pork neck bones this evening. I tried to clean her up with some puppy wipes I had on hand, but they didn’t seem to work very well. I’m headed back to work after a week’s vacation (staycation) and really don’t want to have to give her a bath tonight. But, for future reference, is there a quicker solution to greasy ears? : )

[theBCnut]

You can partially thaw the 3 lbs chub and cut it into appropriate size pieces and refreeze. It’s not ideal, but it’s not too bad either. It is only a few cents more to get the 1 lb chubs and they are a much better size for your situation.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi neezerfan –

Once thawed raw food should be used within 3 days. I’m only aware of two pre-mixes designed to balance a bone inclusive diet – one is the whole carcass formula sold by Feline Instincts and the other is CarnivoreRAW without Calcium sold by Young Again Pet Food. A much cheaper route would be to just add a low calcium or calcium free human multi-vitamin, some veggies (or a fiber supplement) and omega 3’s. You could also learn to balance a recipe completely from scratch with whole foods (this is what I do) but it’s a bit more time intensive and takes a bit of research. Rabbit is high in bone (as are most smaller prey animals) but the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still balanced so it’s not necessary to add more meat. If you find that your dog is constipated you can certainly add more more (high levels of bone can cause constipation for some dogs) but I honestly don’t think it will be an issue. The rabbit heads should be fine for your dog, you’ll have to try them out and see though.

[pugmomsandy]

Trachea doesn’t have any meat on it either.

[neezerfan]

Hi! I have a couple of questions.
I’ve been feeding my dog Darwin’s, rotating with canned and giving RMBs about twice a week. I want to start feeding home prepared raw in place of the canned. So…
1. If I buy the grinds from Hare Today, they come in 3 lbs size? My dog is 12 lbs. He eats about 1/3 of a pound of Darwin’s a day. Once I defrost the grind package, will it go bad before I use it up?
2. If I get a grind with bone, is there a premix to use with that? I think all the ones I find are for boneless meat. I don’t want to use synthetic vitamins if possible.
3. I always thought both goat and rabbit were more bony than meaty, if you know what I mean. If I feed that, should I add in extra boneless meat?
4. Rabbit heads…As I said, my dog is 12 lbs, will they be too big for him? He does well with chicken necks, turkey neck pieces, ox tails and pork ribs so far. He’s a good chewer, not a gulper.
Thanks for your help!

[theBCnut]

Trachea has no bone, it’s cartilage. That makes it a great joint chew.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’d consider it a chew. I give them as treats occasionally, they keep the dogs busy for awhile.

[DogFoodie]

Hi guys!

Is a beef trachea a chew, rectreational bone or RMB?

[theBCnut]

I answered you on the other thread. Basically, it depends on how serious a chewer he is. Read my other response for details.

[MarkWiz69]

Can I feed my 5 month old Rottweiler Puppy (60lbs) a RAW large (6 inch long / 2″ diameter) Beef Bone?

[molliesmom]

Wow – I did not know that rabbit poop is a good thing! The only thing is her tummy really grumbles and she has bad gas after she’s gotten into too much! She used to have beautiful teeth and they turned after (or maybe same time) as these infections. I agree, it is bad for the whole system. I’ve been doing some more research. Anyone heard of PetzLife Oral Care for taking care of tartar and gum disease? Reviews seem good.
As for some bones (marrow, bully sticks, hooves), she’s had those in the past and they too give her upset stomach. She’s always had a sensitive stomach.

Thank you Pattyvaughn and pugmomsandy!!

[pugmomsandy]

I had a dental done on my dogs a couple years ago (maybe 2 or 3) and then started them on raw food and bones and they’re teeth are still clean (even though they still eat kibble and canned foods)!! The bones really help. My dogs are small so the marrow bones, beef rib bones and cow hooves work for them. There is a product called ProDen Plaque Off that seems to help too. And Mercola.com has a new dental gel also in the pet department.

[pugmomsandy]

Has her urine been sent for a culture and sensitivity? Her strain of infection could be resistent to certain drugs.

Can you get her a dental cleaning? If not giving her real bones to gnaw on will help with tarter. Bones that are considered recreational bones and are not consumable like a big femur bone or marrow bone.

As far as food goes, I’d feed her a regular food. Not a “senior” food or a “dental health” food. There are few “senior” foods I’d recommend like Merrick or Amicus (but Amicus is for small breeds). Some budget friendly foods would be Nutrisource, Dr Tim’s, Fromm, Victor, ProPac and a Tractor Supply brand called 4Health Grain Free or Coscto brand called Kirkland’s. A kibble will break up into bits before doing much scraping on the teeth.

You might also try a d-mannose supplement. It attracts a certain kind of bacteria away from the bladder wall.

Also a fellow pugvillage.com member called 6BeautifulPugs has used Cystex tablets (OTC) with success for her troubled UTI dog. You can contact her if you wish. She’s a foster mom that specializes in the old and infirmed.

http://www.pugvillage.com/forum/pug-life/124181-good-news-ching-once.html

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi CharlieBrown –

It’s great that you’re looking to switch your pup to a better food 🙂

Victor is budget friendly and has very small kibble. Fromm Classics are reasonably priced – I’ve never used the classics but I know their 4 Star and Gold lines both have small kibbles so I’d assume the classics would as well. NutriSource has a small/medium breed puppy formula that is small and pretty cheap. That’s all I can recall off the top of my head for small kibble and reasonable price. I’m sure Sandy will know some more.

For canned food I’d recommend checking out either Pure Balance (available at Walmart), 4Health (available at Tractor Supply) or Kirkland Cuts & Gravy (available at Costco) – all are $1 or less for a large can and rate 4 stars or higher.

If you want to give him something healthy to chew on that’s also cheap, I’d recommend picking up some raw bones from the butcher. Bully sticks, pig ears and dried tracheas (from quality sources) are healthy chews too but they can be pricey.

[Hound Dog Mom]

No problem Betsy. I enjoy helping everyone learn more about raw food and I think it’s great that you’re incorporating some RMBs into Sam and Bella’s diet. 🙂

[DogFoodie]

Thanks, HDM!

You know, had it not been for your help, and the help of other raw feeders here, I probably would’ve been scared to get into raw at all. Raw can be a little bit intimidating and stressful and you guys always make it look so easy and are always so reassuring!

Thanks for taking the time to share all of your knowledge and experience with us!

Blessings, Betsy