[theBCnut]

I only feed raw bones. I would be afraid that these would splinter or break off chunks. There is so such thing as “natural liquid smoke.” Smoke is not a liquid. I’ve read that smoked flavoring is a cancer causing agent. I’d pass.

[Peggy]

Please give me your opinion of these? Thank you.

http://www.petflow.com/product/jones-natural-chews/jones-natural-chews-lamb-shank-bone-dog-treat

[Akari_32]

I’ve tried all that keeping his paws clean after going out and it never helped. Here in FL it’s pretty much a losing battle if there’s an environmental allergy involved. I am about to take out chicken from his diet and see how that helps. He’s got about a month of pork in the freezer. Should be long enough off poultry to see if he improves any at all.

As far as treats, that’s a hard battle with mom. I’ve got her limited to three treats a day, and I’ve got them on Zukes, the little tiny ones the size of a pencil eraser. Moms the kind of person that means well, but is behind the times on the fact that there is more knowledge on pet nutrition and health care these days. All four dogs have her *trained* on where the treats are, and she loves to give them treats. So I do my best to create a happy medium in the treat field. She’s more of the just-feed-it-some-food-and-move-along type. We had some issues between the two of us when I first brought Bentley home with her just wanting to feed him Puppy Chow, and me getting free/cheap Innova (right before the first buy out, when they were still good). Thankfully she does see that all of his skin issues are diet related, but we are still working on the treat front of that. Even she compliments how much better he looks now that I’ve figured out carbs were such a problem with him. It’s a slow process with her LOL

Since we’re on the topic of fish, i just found out that the Publix I work at has whole smelt, that are like 4-5 inches long. They’re frozen in what’s probably a 2 lb bag. If they are plain, would this be a good something to add to his diet? Can they be whole, scales, bones and all?

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve fed them baby back ribs and the little lamb ribs (rack of lamb, looks like a mini bone in pork chop). I’ve also fed them whole rabbit. I haven’t tried bone-in pork chop yet. Some places might also sell calf ribs which are small. I know GreenTripe.com does. For fun, they’ve had lamb shank bones. Keeps them occupied as does cow hooves.

[Jennifer H]

pugmomsandy, what kind of ribs do you feed your pugs? I have a Maltese, and I’m trying to find edible bones for him that aren’t just poulty. Would goat bones be edible, do you think? HareToday has small cut goat bones, they look like ribs to me. Would that be edible, for a small dog?

He’s had a pork neck before, but I dislike they way they are cut and he didn’t seem to be able to eat a lot of the bone. He does well with chicken necks, backs, and feet.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Jennifer H.

[Naturella]

Anita, even though your vet said to do that, the kibble size will do nothing to help clean your dog’s teeth. It is like cleaning our molars with large cookies.

What you can do is try to get your dog used to brushing. You can start with putting some coconut oil or dog toothpaste on your finger and let your dog lick it, then slowly get it used to you rubbing it on his/her teeth with your finger, and little by little move to a rubber brush that you put on your finger, or a real dog toothbrush. Since you have to get in the back of the mouth, it won’t be easy, but it’s really the best way to keep their teeth clean, and you need to do it daily, or at least a few times a week.

Another alternative is feeding raw meaty bones, like chicken necks, feet, wings, legs, etc., or pork/beef riblets and neck bone pieces. Always supervise while your dog is eating those and make sure she/he crushes them up well and is not gulping them. You can feed those a couple times a week, but make sure the amount is no more than 20-25% of your dog’s balanced diet. And no cooked bones.

Hope this helps! 🙂

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve used ProDen Plaque Off before on one of the fosters with super horrible breath and bad teeth. He had to lose weight before getting a dental but the two months I had him on the ProDen really helped alot! The ProDen and giving him chew bones during the two months of dieting really made a difference for him. I haven’t used any oral gels yet but was thinking about it.

[Akari_32]

Let us know how the CN goes! The grain inclusive recipes are available locally, but they aren’t too exciting looking so I never give them a second thought. Never mind the fact that I don’t like the company that owns them now lol

They’re cows feet. I didn’t think they’d be so huge! Haley and Dweezle are really loving them though. In fact, I just peaked out back, and it looks like they’re both gone, unless Haley dragged hers into the garage or something lol They are really creepy! They have skin and muscle and fat still on them and everything! LOL Both these guys are strong chewers so I don’t worry about giving them smoked bones. They are good about crunching it all into little bits before eating it. The shin bones are also for Haley and Dweezle. They get smaller ones from the pet store from time to time. 🙂

[crazy4cats]

Hi-
I ordered the California Natural Grain Free Pork. It uses peas as a binder, which I’m a little nervous about. Last time I tried a food with peas, their poopers turned green. But, found out later it was probably the giardia, not the peas. Fingers crossed that it will be fine. I haven’t tried peas for over a year now. I also ordered a few Etta rabbit chews to hit the free shipping level.

What kind of feet are those in the picture? do they eat the whole thing? Or just chew on them. Not sure if I could get those. They are kind of creepy. LOL! Also, which dog do you give the shin bones to? Do they consume those? I have not been too adventurous with bones.

You got some great deals!

[pugmomsandy]

The only bones my pugs get are necks (usually skinless), feet and some ribs so I grind everything else with a 1 hp Weston. I generally leave skin on unless there’s a huge ball of it.

[Cait Y]

Ok so I have lurked here for a little over a year, and recently started making my own raw cat food via Lisa A. Pierson, DVM because one of my boys almost died after getting into the Dry food AGAIN and his whole GI system blocked up because he cannot handle the lack of fluids in dry food. He is such a picky eater that I had put off the raw diet dreading that he would turn his nose up at it like he did the other high quality raw/semi cooked food I tried buying him. He LOVED the home made food, he even batted off his BFF to eat his food too!
HoundDogMom, other raw feeders please bear with me I know that the whole shebang I know as of now it is 6 pages long. I am trying to paint the whole picture with the dogs, their special needs and what is causing me confusion with the Raw feeding books I have read. There is so much going on right now in my personal life that I am having a very hard time understanding this and if anyone could help point me in the right direction or even a book or website or from experience I would be so very very grateful.
The biggest reservation I have about feeding Raw to the dogs (who LOVED the scoop of homemade cat food I gave them as a test) are the bones and sadly the limited ingredients I can use for my Special Needs Hound.
I have a 14 yr old Walker hound (Forest) who has like no teeth left and was just diagnosed with cushing’s disease but has some pretty abnormal liver tests because of the damage that was done while he went undiagnosed. His liver is so enlarged it displaces his stomach sideways and upwards which makes EASILY digestible food a must. He cannot have food high in phosphorus, copper or ammonia which means little to no red meat and lots of poultry, eggs and pork. He also has problems with chronic Constipation so I would have to be VERY careful about the amount of bone I add to his diet but I also want enough in there to give him the nutrients he needs. Since he is older he also burns a LOT of calories, He is on Vital Fresh pet Turkey or Chicken and gets 1.5 lbs a day. I don’t know what is causing him to burn so many calories except for old age or maybe his body is trying to repair itself – all he does is lounge in the lawn and do his hound dance for food – people or animal whichever he can mac on at the moment lol
My 3 yr old yellow lab (Nova) is also a high calorie burner but she is super active, we do scent tracking, retrieving, and lots of walking/running on the grass. She will go until she drops which I have never seen before, so now I watch her very closely for signs she is over heated. She eats up to 2 lbs of the above dog food a day but is still losing weight on occasion when her activity jumps up again. She has always had double the amount of Eosinophils in her blood that she should at a “normal” rate. She has been checked for parasites so the best I can come up with is that she might have GI issues going on intermittently – she doesn’t transition food gracefully and really doesn’t tolerate even high quality kibble (after research it’s not such a mystery anymore) which is in part what turned me onto Freshpets Vital.
To top it all off I have a Four month old female lab puppy (Ellie) that is still growing. I have her on 2 lbs of Freshpets vital but I am worried that she is not getting something in her diet as well. She has three white lines running across her nails – each nail on every paw. In my experience when the horses have white lines or even indents it means either they were very very sick or have a mineral/vitamin deficiency of some sort. I know when Ellie came to us she had a severe infection of hook and round worms. Her infection was so severe at 8 weeks old that the vet said she would have died untreated – thank you OCD and taking her to the Vet the same day she was brought home lol. They were resistant to the normal worming meds and for 2 months we battled with getting them under control and gone. If Dogs are like horses that would cause the lines because of how sick she was during this (Great going Lemon law Florida) yet I also worry because I know parasites in small animals or even large can cause a huge system imbalance with nutrients which hinders growth.
OK Limited ingredients – because of Forest I have to stick to Chicken, Turkey, and Eggs as a main protein source due to his liver problems and because Rabbit in completely unviable to me unless I want to raise them myself. I have no local butcher – the closest one is three hours away so Chicken and Turkey liver will have to do for organ meat – sometimes I can get chicken hearts once in a blue moon. For Fats I have to choose VERY easily digestible fats from an animal protein because with Forests Liver problems his biliary system can be overloaded very easily and that would be disastrous. Maybe I can add some duck occasionally to his diet?

Copper Issues:
If ammonia restriction is required, feed less red meats and organs since they produce the most ammonia. You may not want to eliminate them entirely though, as they have important nutrients that help with liver function.
Instead, cut back. Feed more poultry, fish, eggs, and pork. If feeding red meat, even in small quantities, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Preferably grass fed, antibiotic, and hormone free.

Meats generally low in copper are:
• Beef (muscle meat, not organs)
• Eggs
• Turkey (white meat)
• Chicken (white meat)
• Rabbit
• Fish
Meats generally high in copper are:
• Lamb
• Pork
• Pheasant or Quail
• Duck
• Goose
• Salmon
• Organ Meats
When feeding organs for copper issues, some animal livers contain more copper than others. Beef liver is higher in copper than chicken or pork livers. Regardless, the zinc and b vitamins in liver help to reduce the risk of copper toxicity. Though if your dog has an issue with copper, opt for chicken or pork liver. (http://primalpooch.com/raw-feeding-guidelines-dogs-liver-disease/)

I have read Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet and Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health of Dogs and Cats. I have some major issues with either of the books, UtCaD is so absolute – if you feed this protein then you need this oil. First of all Canola Oil? Corn Oil? Soybean Oil? Walnut oil? Flax and hemp seed oil? I own horses and I would NEVER give them Corn oil with the GMO crap going around I don’t trust Corn or Canola at all. If I am not comfortable feeding to my strict Herbivores I am definitely not OK feeding it to the other animals. By the way the 2,000 lbs animals have had major GI upset from Canola, Corn, Soybean and Flax seed oil. I’ve given it to them in small amounts – 3 tablespoons a day and I have seen a massive systemic effect that made me take them off of it immediately. It was supposed to give them the right ratio of Omega’s 3 and 6 plus help my older guys move and keep weight on since it was winter. The recommended Ratio of 6 to 3 fats are 10:1 to 5:1 for dogs – I have read that small fish or Krill are the best to supplement dogs with because of the low contamination rate and it should not carry Salmon Sickness. Soybean oil is also something I would never give my dogs or humans or anything because of the way it can mimic hormones and interrupt the function of the Thyroid. Also Kelp is recommended a lot, but there are so many negatives that came out during the feeding kelp to horse’s fad that I will not touch the stuff. If it can affect the horses with the amount of iodine to the point horses became toxic I don’t trust the manufactures. It was not that kelp was being fed in large amounts there was absolutely no regulation on what type they harvested or what it contained. Missing link for dogs is a product I am familiar with and they do make it for dogs with trace minerals but it is flax based. Won’t this completely mess up the balancing? Does anyone here feed this instead of kelp?
The Missing Link Ultimate Skin & Coat:
Active Ingredients (per tbsp)
Flaxseed Dried Kelp
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Vegetarian) Zinc Monomethionine
Freeze Dried Beef Liver Lecithin
Blackstrap Molasses Chromium Yeast
Rice Bran Selenium Yeast
Primary Dried Yeast Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6)
Sunflower Seed Niacin (Vitamin B3)
Dehydrated Alfalfa Garlic Powder
Dried Carrot Yucca Schidigera Extract
Shark Cartilage Powder* Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
Freeze Dried Fish Protein Powder Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
Freeze Dried Oyster Powder Folic Acid
Barley Grass Leaves Powder Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
Guaranteed Analysis Amount
Crude Protein (not less than) 18%
Crude Fat (not less than) 28%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 15%
Moisture (not more than) 10%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 450 mg
**Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1000 mg
**Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Cat/Dog food nutrient profiles.

Also if everything is so precise that does not leave room for error such as what if the chickens were raised on Florida soil which is heavy in limestone and deficient in other areas – rather than let’s say somewhere in the bread bowl what about if they were fed a corn based feed and another batch was fed free range? If the meat analysis is different it throws everything off and we all know that meat from south Fl is very different than meat from MI or IN – same principle goes with growing vegetables even organic. How much of a God Factor is there for the abundance of some micronutrients and lack of others? UTCAD also has an abundance of some nutrients way over the NRC guidelines – are dogs different in the fact that they can rid themselves of excess things very easily? I know in humans and horses Vit E and Selenium can be deadly because it builds up in fat and the body doesn’t flush it out like the water-soluble vitamins?
Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health has a lot of oat meal, rice, beans?! Half and Half milk, whole milk, whole wheat bread corn? That sounds not so great for dogs and especially not for cats like it says it can be. What about kidney beans? With feeding my dogs I have learned they do OK on rice occasionally when they have an upset GI but if they are on a diet with rice too long they get backed up. Also the beans – the dogs seem to have issues with digesting them like people sometimes do – why are there so many carbohydrates? Why cannot I do sprouted microgreens or carrots or even baked potatoes because I know the dogs tolerate those vegetables very well. Also Brewer’s Yeast? Isn’t yeast as a whole bad? It’s in everything and I know Nova already is prone to yeast infections in her ears and when she gets a UTI – Also can Brewer’s yeast cause or attribute to bloat? Milk – isn’t milk products bad if they are in large amounts such as 2 cups milk plus 2 cups rolled oats and 2 eggs and calcium powder? Everything to me seems so skewed.
Also RMB are out of the question – Forest cannot eat them and Nova and Ellie are gulpers – they came from a large litter and it would be just my luck to end up in emergency surgery with one of them. I have a grinder to which I can grind the bone up with the meat and I know the purpose of the bone was for dental health but if I make Meat Jerky and other goodies can I replicate that without worrying about emergency surgery or broken teeth?
Since I own a grinder already for cat food why cannot I grind bones to supplement their food with? So far in my research the basic recipe and consensus I have come across is as follows:
16% Organ meat
10% – 25% Bone
The rest of the food would be muscle meat and muscle meat
Meat is very high in phos and the bone is high in Cal which means the Cal to Phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.5:1 although 1:1 to 2.5:1 is ok as well. I just need to make sure the dogs consume more Cal than Phos but the question is do I need to add bone meal or can I grind my own bones to supplement?
Here is what the Article analysis the bone content to be in prey animals:
Bone Content In Raw Foods
When sourcing bones for your dog’s diet, it’s a good idea to know the approximate amount of bone in commonly sourced foods. Here is a quick guide to help you keep your dog’s bone content in the right range; between 10% and 25%.
Chicken Whole chicken (not including the head and feet): 25% bone/Leg quarter: 30%/Split breast: 20%/Thigh: 15%/Drumstick: 30%/Wing: 45%/Neck: 36%/Back: 45%/Turkey/Whole turkey: 21%/Thigh: 21%/Drumstick: 20%/Wing: 37%/Neck: 42%/Back: 41%
Pork Feet: 30%/Tails: 30%/Ribs: 30%
Beef Ribs: 52%
Rabbit Whole rabbit (fur and all): 10% Whole (dressed): 25-30%

From this can I remove the proper amount of bones or add more bones in to balance or would you suggest a bone meal powder? Also I have yet to factor in the percentage of vegetable/fruit/microgreens in the recipe – I am just so lost so if HoundDogMom could help or someone else could chime in I would be so grateful. I am trying very hard to learn as much as I can but between the animals and two sick family members and special needs animals by the time I have a moment to sit down I am out like a light for the night or my brain is so frazzled everything looks like it was written in French. Am I over thinking this? I just don’t want to screw Ellie up – she has already had such a bad start with the worm infection – and Forest needs nutrients to rebuild his liver correctly and I wanted to see if this change in diet would help Nova’s Eosinophils come to a normal level. Also has anyone ever seen white lines on every toenail that grows parallel with the skin? Any help would be so appreciated there is just not a lot of room for error with Forest right now with his liver Alt levels 4 times what they are supposed to be. They cannot stay on the Freshpet much longer because to feed the dogs its 19 dollars a day and that’s not a very good long term solution.
Thanks so much everyone~!~ I Hope everyone had a great New Year and wonderful Holiday
`RedMare

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
Please let me know how the girls do on KBPF-I ALMOST placed an order for the trial sizes, but my head is spinning from what I already have in the bullpen for Millie.
The next free-dried i have for her is the Oracle grain-free, still waiting for the Primal Raw.
I,too was loved by the shelter, all the foods I tried for pepper & poor thing couldn’t tolerate any.
Thanks for the heads up with the fruits and veggies -I only feed 1 type of treat its called Cocotherapy-freeze dried fruits or veggies they are very costly & the bags are very empty for $9.95 a bag, I don’t use any commercial bones either.
When I first got Pepper & didn’t know anything I bought her Greenies for her dental issues-my angel got so sick on them, I swore I would never again buy anything like that!!
I have been in Louisiana 34 yrs-all my adult life, but they still call me a yankee and I am proud of that,never lost my accent as I am told!! I go home & they ask me where I am from!!! Go figure.
Do you have any suggestions on what I can use to clean Millie’s ear she has some wax & I think it bothers her-she shakes her head sometimes,no smell, I thought vinegar or hydrogen peroxide , but this healthy dog Handbook says both are no-no’s=the book says o use a commercial product, I always try to stat away from them, but if you have a particular product that works, I would appreciate the info.
Fondly,
Cheryl

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I’ve been in Atlanta for 13 years now and still consider NYC home. I sometimes feel like I went on vacation and couldn’t find my way back home. lol We left the North East because we were so sick and tired of the cold weather. Well, I just took a look at the thermometer on my patio while I was out with my three girls and it is 17 degrees. I don’t know kind of global warming this is suppose to be but it’s had the opposite effect in Atlanta.

On cooking the veggies. If I’ve cooked veggies for our dinner then I’ll give them some cooked. Fruits I give raw. Most of the time I give the girls the fruits and veggies raw because I don’t give them for their nutritional value I give them to the girls as treats. I don’t feed any commercial treats whatsoever. Too many recalls with too many treats. I don’t give bones as I said, I certainly would never give them raw hide stuff, most commercial treats include some sort of grain or gluten and I feed grain free. So I give fruits and veggies and don’t have any concern whether they come out the same way that they went in. They’re happy chomping on what they think are treats and I feel it’s better than taking a chance on store bought treats. As to fruits and veggies, it’s also what happens to be in the fridge or on the counter. They love little bits of bananas so if I’m eating a banana I share it with them. Mostly me, little for them.

As to THK and more pooping, my three dogs did initially poop more often at the beginning and then eventually it tapered off and now they only go twice a day regardless of what they’ve been fed. Initially on THK their poops were pretty big too compared to their raw foods but then that went back to normal size also. My girls love THK and also lick their bowls clean to the point that they shine. Glad your girls like it too. It always makes me happy to feed them foods that not only do they love, but do so well on.

Kristin C. I tried Steve’s Real Food for Dogs once and I didn’t care for it. I didn’t like the consistency. I also didn’t care much for what was coming out of them either and they very rarely if ever have loose stools so that was another issue. It’s been a long time since I fed it and eventually gave the rest of the food away. I used to be big on trying different brands and seeing how the girls did. I now have a pretty big variety that they eat with no issues at all but as we went through the trial and error period my local shelter adored me. I was over there all the time dropping food off. One of my girls has a lot of food sensitivities, intolerances and a couple of out and out allergies so the process took me quite a while. That’s actually what led me to feed commercial raw. As long as I always remember to check all ingredients (companies do from time to time decide to make some formula change), Katie no longer has any food issues.

[jakes mom]

yeah, we got a little off topic didn’t we? I asked about THK mixes because they were the only ones I’d heard of other than the SSLL. I’m new to the raw food thing. Aimee doesn’t like THK or the KBPF. I don’t know her background so I can’t say that her opinion impacts my decision either way. I bought a couple of trial packs for the cats. If they like it, great, if not, live and learn I guess. Package says it meets AAFCO guidelines. They won’t be eating it exclusively so I’m not worried about any nutritional imbalance, really.
Cheryl, my Jake loves bones. I was nervous, too, at first, but heard so much about the benefits I decided to try. So far he’s had chicken backs, turkey necks, and “scrap bones” sold for soup. I believe they were beef vertebrae by the look of them I have some pork bones in the freezer, too. Pork needs to be frozen for a few weeks to kill any parasites. I always supervise him when he has a bone to be on the safe side but have had no problems. My understanding is that raw bones are safe, it’s the cooked ones that splinter and cause trouble.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. As far as poultry bones, they are risky and NOT to be fed if they are cooked. Raw they say is just fine. I don’t give my three toy dogs any bones to eat. Their too small ( 5, 6 & 7 lbs.) and I’m too afraid of them choking on something. Of course, if you choose to do so, please be sure that you stay with your dogs the entire time they are chomping down the bones so you know they are safe. You have to also know your dogs. Are they gulpers and likely to try to swallow large pieces or are they slow chewers with all foods. That’s an important thing to know. Mine are all gulpers. I swear I don’t think they chew anything other than raw carrots that I give them as treats. Most everything else they are like vacuum cleaners. As Bobby dog said don’t give weight bearing bones. You can also feed ribs…beef, pork, whatever.

I feed my girls commercial raw foods for most of their two meals a day. I add different other ingredients to their meals and they get organic fruits and veggies. I hardly ever cook for my husband and myself so I can’t see myself whipping up meals for my dogs. I’m a believer that raw food is best for my dogs. I have seen a world of difference in these three since I switched to raw three years ago. I don’t feed the prey model because I couldn’t possibly hand over a whole animal or whatever and watch them eat it. I haven’t got the stomach for it I guess. No doubt, they’d be fine with it maybe but I wouldn’t be. I’m quite OCD about my three little girls (some would say neurotic…I’m proud of that) health be it physical or nutritionally. So I hear your concerns. I should also mention that I rotate their foods between different brands and within those brands. One of my girls has a lot of food sensitivities so no fowl of any sort. I feed them twice a day and I also rotate with each meal. I’ve been doing this with them for a long time so they have no issues eating different foods for different meals. It did take about 3 or 4 months I think before I was able to do that though. I hope anything I’ve said has helped and I think Bobby dog has given you some great advice as she always does.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Dori.

[Bobby dog]

Cheryl:
I hear you about being cautious! I have tried transitioning my dog to a few raw meals per week, but he just doesn’t care for it. Commercial raw he will eat, not prey model. That is why I am interested in home cooked.

I also tried to introduce RMB’s to him and he just buries them in the yard. Several posters feed chic and turkey necks. It just depends on your comfort level and your dog. Weight bearing bones are not recommended because of their density, your dog could crack a tooth. There is allot of info about RMB’s & raw diets in the forums. Here is a recent RMB thread, check it out and ask away. I unfortunately will not be much help with your RMB questions!
/forums/topic/rmbs-and-recreational-bones/

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Bobby,
I finally found the post i wanted to reply to,this new format drives me crazy,if I am away from the computer, I forget who I need to reply to -sorry.
You asked if I want to feed raw or cooked, honestly, I don’t know.
I guess I could give Miilie a few raw meals per month, in the hot summer here I don’t think so. The heat here is oppressive.
I have been lightly boiling all meats I give to pepper and now Millie.
I still await the Primal raw from the co.
I saw something on u-tube and they were feeding turkey necks-I thought all poultry bones were risky to feed. Do you think a turkey neck is safe for a little schnauzer to chomp on??
Ideally, I guess if Millie could take it vary the kinds of meals within a week, if not vary weekly,I am very new to this & very OCD (ask Shawna) when the welfare of the fur-kids are concerned.
I don’t trust myself.

[peter d]

InkedMarie,
I don’t remember saying that high protein foods are the ONLY cause-please read properly.
It is a major factor in that it causes depletion of Calcium from the food inake and from the developing bones.It is secreted in the urine-goodbye forever.Happens during the developing stage-and you werent a fly on the wall when your 2 dogs you mentioned were growing up.
But there are a number of other factors,and the main one is that pups are not fed a balanced diet with a CA/P ratio of 1.4 to 1. Yes they may get that in their KIBBLE—BUT,what else are they fed?? This ‘what else’ is what is important and I suggest to you that nearly every cute young puppy is given plenty of ‘other’ food that most likely affects the CA/P ratio.People are the real problem.No self control or disciplin-all well meaning mind you ,but the saying-kill them with kindness -is very apt.
Interestingly the CHD problem reared it’s head around the 1930’s when commercial foods were starting to be produced-and it has progressively got worse.
It’s not the fault of the commercial balanced complete diets,but the insatiable drive of owners to spoil their much loved pet.
You are what you eat-whether human/dog or any living thing-or don’t you believe that either?

[peter d]

Hi all,I’m new here having stumbled onto this site,and what caught my attention are statements about high or low protein.
Also Mike suggests for anyone to share knowledge-so here goes.
I speak with over 50 years of experience of commercial animal production with various species.Nutrition has always been my driving interest and study-by necessity-we had our own feed plant.
I have discovered some amazing things,by following ideas and hunches and putting them into practice.
With nearly all species the protein requirements lessen as animals grow.
With dogs however, it seems to me that manufacturers use high protein as a marketing tool-as users seem to think the higher protein-the better the food!
Puppy biscuits in particular at 29-30% protein and recommended to be fed to 12 and even 24 mths old!
This is a monumental mistake and a major cause of hip Dysplasia in dogs-and I’ll tell you why.
Proteins produce acids-the higher the protein-the more acids. The body attempts to neutralise this by using Calcium from the food intake and,invariably, leeches Calcium from the bones-which in a young pup-which are not born with bones-but need to develop and grow-and the larger the breed the more they have to grow.
2 of these acids cause secretion of the Calcium via the urine.
It is a major although not the only mnutritional cause of CHD.
I have always had large breed dogs as well-the last 15 years as a breeder of Malamutes as a semi retirement pursuit and love of dogs.
As I write this having reared many hundreds of dogs,I am yet to see one with CHD.
Nutrition is by far the most important thing in life of all living things-humans too!
Peter

[InkedMarie]

I use ground raw. Boone gets about 3.5 oz bony and 1 oz boneless. The bony has meat, bone, tripe & organs. I do have some that has no tripe so I add that. He gets eggs and salmon oil a few times a week. He gets rib bones to gnaw on and I skip the boneless at that meal. Thats it.

Edit: he does get a joint supplement, apple cider vinegar & Bug Off Garlic as well.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by InkedMarie.

[Kristin C]

So I thawed RR rabbit chunks this weekend and the bag leaked but as Michael says it was probably from the bones. The grinds do not leak. I do thaw them in a bowl in the frig regardless. I would like to add that if you are concerned with the fat content then don’t feed it as your sole source. I open one 2 lb bag of grinds per week for my dogs. That’s only 3 meals each of a novelty protein. I probably would never feed them raw from one company all the time anyway just to be safe.

[David G]

Ok perfect. That was the other list I was looking at as well.

Seems like Fromm has a good reputation around here, so that’s great to hear. I’m so excited to get the food and nylabones in. Poor Tank has been having almost complete liquid stool. It kills me.

Thanks so much for the help everyone. This site is an invaluable source and I look forward to learning more and more, so I can take the best care of my current and future dogs.

[Elizabeth A]

I’ve been ordering strictly pastured, organic meat and poultry deliverd to my home through http://www.uswellnessmeats.com for my family’s consumption. They also sell “pet burgers” which is mixed raw organ meats/ muscle meat that comes from solely pastured, organic animals. It is raw, delivered frozen in 1 lb bags, costing about $5 a pound. I give it to my older dachshund as a treat to supplement his canned Wellness diet. He loves it! I think it releases his “inner wolf.” haha Just wondering if anyone else has come across this product. They also sell pastured beef bones of varying sizes with the marrow. Some of their beef comes from Tasmania/New Zealand where the air/pasture/water purity is high. Just passing it on. My doxie is a rescue dog I’ve had since he was 4 and now turning 16–still full of life!

[Akari_32]

Only when cooked. Raw bones are generally very safe. However, some dogs are terrible chewers. Always supervise when giving any sort of chew, and take it away if you feel the dog isn’t chewing it properly. Bentley is very good at making sure he completely brakes the bone up into tiny piece before eating them. Some dogs get them into several larger pieces, and swallow them down, which is what you don’t want. Nor do you want a dog to chew too strongly on a bone that is too dense and break any teeth. Poultry bones and chews are best for small dogs. I also give Bentley pork hocks every now and then, as the bones are very small and soft, and there’s a lot of chewy skin on the outside.

[Peggy]

I have never heard of this Jo. I will definitely try it.

Akari, you mention giving them raw necks, wings, thighs, legs…….. I always thought these bones were too brittle to give a dog?

[Akari_32]

Is his mouth infected at all? If not, start giving raw meaty bones (like turkey and chicken necks, wings, thighs, and legs– my 8 lb Jack russell mix loves legs!). If the mouth is infected you can give chews like bully sticks and tracheas (you can give these along with RMBs, as well). If there is an infection, you should also consider asking the vet about giving him some antibiotics.

If he will chew any of these things, you will probably end up not even having to a dental.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Kristen,
I did purchase a whole rabbit at whole foods-it was costly and not very meaty-i found believe it or not more fat than I would expect, now I didn’t give my girl the bones due to her health & age, so for you it may be worth it. I was very disappointed.
I posted -YET AGAIN IN THE INCORRECT AREA, I wanted to know if you had tried the
stella & Chewy’s meal toppers.
I was directed by Bobby dog to SSLL & was disappointed to learn, it won’t be available until later.
have you ever tried it? If so were you pleased with the results?

[Peggy]

My dogs like both the Dream Bones and the Busy Bones. Especially my JRT,
He’s a chewer and if I have to keep bones, chew toys, etc around the house for him.
My LadyBug could not care less about toys, but likes her chew bone every morning.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Peggy.

[Kristin C]

The rabbit, bones and all, went good. Both my dogs had no problem chomping through the bones. Think I am going to see if I can purchase a whole rabbit and cut it into portions myself, assuming it’s more cost effective than purchasing the pieces already cut up.

[Kristin C]

Bobby dog-they’ll be getting their first rabbit bones in the morning. If all goes well, I’ll probably buy an entire rabbit and just cut it up myself. If it freaks me out I’ll probably just do rabbit grinds in the future.

Re: the dinner mixes. Urban Wolf looks like an awful lot of work to me. Better in the Raw is on my list to try. I’ll check out the CarnivoreRaw.

I’ll post if the rabbit bones go well, or not.

[Bobby dog]

Kristin C: Do you feed your dog rabbit bones?

Hi Jakes Mom:
I haven’t tried a pre-mix yet, but I have several bookmarked. I plan on trying SSLL dinner mix when it’s back on the market in the spring. I haven’t looked at THK dinner mixes. Here are some others:
Urban Wolf
http://www.urbanwolf.cc/
Know Better Pet Food, they sell a trial size bag:
http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/
CarnivoreRAW
https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/10browse.asp?category=raws

On another topic, KBPF makes dinner mixes for cats…

[Akari_32]

Noooooooo. I’m no where near there. I live in Florida lol

I just realized how expensive it’s going to be to buy 50 lbs of meat at a time LOL However, the price per pound is very cheap, and it’s the cheapest way to cut chicken out of his diet. A 50lbs order will also last him almost 5 months. I’ll have to talk mom into it. I buy the others dog food by setting aside $10 a week and binge buying when something good pops up. I bet I could talk mom into doing something similar. Put x-amount in my savings account every week, and I’ll deal with the ordering when it comes time… She wants to set down and look at the site together before we fully decide on it. She’s worried about how the meat is handled before it gets to us. If it’s been handled properly, kept at the right temp, not mixed together, etc.

Also, I gave Bentley a whole egg (cracked up, shell crushed) as the base to his SSLL yesterday (instead of the usual water), and he loved the yolk and white, but didn’t eat the shell. And of course he loved his deboned turkey leg lol He loves bones so I’m not sure why he wouldn’t eat the shell. Little brat lol

[DogFoodie]

My first thought about that would be yes, you could certainly start with cooked bones since you’re going to strain it all out at the end of cooking anyway. However, there is something that is used in Costco rotisserie chicken that I absolutely cannot have. It sets off my colitis instantly. I’m not sure if it’s a flavor enhancer with MSG in it or what, but just keep in mind your dogs would end up eating it. I just wouldn’t give it to them too often.

[crazy4cats]

Ok, I’m back. I was thinking more about the bone broth. Can you use cooked bones to make it? Like can I use the carcass from a Costco rotisserie chicken that we’ve had for dinner to make it? Or, does it have to be raw bones?

[Dori]

Bobby dog. LMAO, I think some of us are just lazy…..oops! I mean to say I’m just too lazy, or what? I’m not sure. I got an email from THK awhile back re the broths before they were going to be introduced, they made a big hype about it and, of course, to order it before they ran out for the holidays and, duh?????? I fell right into the marketing pitch. Paid the money for them and then had to give two of them away. Knowing full well that I cannot give the girls anything that contains poultry or fowl I ordered them anyway. What was I thinking you might wonder? I have no clue other than to plead to a majorly bad senior moment. I mean seriously, who pays 19.99 for three containers of broth plus the shipping knowing full well at the start that they cannot use two of the containers. So I paid 19.99 plus shipping for one container of powdered broth. New Year’s resolution coming to me right here right now. I will follow your directions and make my own beef broth. I mean it’s not like I don’t have a slow cooker (crock pot) and it’s not like I can’t buy beef bones. I love freezing things for the girls in ice cube trays then putting in vacuum sealed bags in the freezer. I learned that part from theNut quite a while ago. Thanks Bobby dog.

[Bobby dog]

I am giggling reading about the convenience of buying a good broth as opposed to making it! I agree, I am all for making things easy and simple!

I always have bone broth in the freezer for Bobby and the cats. I make it similar to the truthaboutpetfood directions so I thought I would share my routine if anyone is interested. I routinely look for shortcuts when cooking. I am a lazy chef, what can I say.

I remove the skin and fat before cooking. I may not get all the fat, but I try. I use a crockpot and cook on low for 24 hours; set it and forget it. When it’s done, I let it cool enough to be able to put it in an iced tea pitcher. I pour it through a colander to remove the bones then put it in the refrigerator to cool further. When it’s chilled I skim the fat off then pour it easily into containers for freezing. I normally just use ice cube trays then store it in zip lock bags, depends on how full my freezer is.

[Akari_32]

You guys know I’m always on the look out for a deal, and to better the dogs diets at the same time. I was surfing around and came across Hare Today. I know several of you guys use it, so I decided to check it out.

I’ve figured out that I need to keep it at $3.89 and less, to keep the price competitive to what I am doing now, which is See Spot Live Longer, and sale meats (lots of sale whole roaster/frier chickens @.@). Which should be easy, I think.

However, what is shipping like? Is there a “free shipping when you spend so much” deal they do? I need to stick with less than $30 a month. If it needs to be bought in bulk, thats fine with me. Shipping is a huge factor on this right now.

What makes me really like this idea, though is that the prices are cheaper than in store (which means nothing if shipping is too much lol), and I can get Bentley more than mass amounts of chicken, because the variety here sucks. Its either chicken, beef, chicken, pork, chicken, maybe some random organ someone ordered at Publix but never picked up, more chicken… Everything but the chicken and some pork is just so pricey, $5 a pound and up! I’m thinking he is still having problems with chicken though, because even though he’s been on raw for some time now, he still breaks out and gets red and itchy and yeasty at times. I know the grass and rain and other pollens has something to do with it, but I can’t help but wonder if completely cutting out chicken would help him even more, or maybe cutting out the pre-mix, if its something in the SSLL.

If I can cut out the SSLL, are the meat/organ/bone grinds on Hare Today balanced? Like this beef blend, for example?

“Ground Beef/Organs/Tripe/Bone, 5 lb $19.20

Hormone and antibiotic free beef. This is approximately 80% meat, 7% tripe, 7% organ [heart,liver, lung, and kidneys] and 6% bone.
Fine Ground

This food is low in Sodium. It is also a good source of Vitamin B6, Phosphorus, Zinc and Selenium, and a very good source of Protein and Vitamin B12”

I would think yes, but I figured I’d make sure. According to the calculator, he’d only need about 3.84 oz. He currently gets a 5 oz chunk of whatever meat I give him and SSLL, and a little coconut oil because the princess won’t lap up the SSLL anymore without the coconut oil, or a good deal of blood from the meat. Rotten little dog lol

Also, since I’m considering cutting chicken from his diet, should I also cut out other birds, and stick with beef, pork and maybe fish? He didn’t really like fish based kibbles when he was a puppy, and he’s not a huge fan of fish oil, but maybe he’d like raw fish? The whole sardines or anchovies, or whatever they were, on Hare Today are right in my price range at $3.85 a pound, and I know whole fishes are balanced meals. I’d also like if you guys that know the site better than I do to recommend some goodies that are in my feeble price range. Mixes of meats to make balanced meals are also good, as well. Just keep the average price per pound in my price range 🙂

As far as bones and RMB, I can just get those in store, I think. Some prices are cheaper at Publix than Hare Today, so I’ll price shop for bones first before deciding where I’ll buy them.

I’d also like to know if there are any other sites like this that may be cheaper, or have other things. I’m also looking at complete freeze-dried and dehydrated meals, if anyone can recommend any that are going to be about $30 or less a month for an 8 pound dog.

Thanks a bunch guys!

[pugmomsandy]

Hound and Gatos Pork

houndgatos.com

Grandma Lucy’s Artisan Pork, Venison and Bison, Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance Rabbit and Goat

grandmalucys.com

Great Life Dr E’s Buffalo (has salmon oil) and Pioneer Naturals Pork

doctorsfinest.com

Addiction Perfect Summer Brushtail and Outback Kangaroo, Fig’Licious Venison (dehydrated), canned Black Forest Rabbit, Hunter’s Venison Stew:

https://www.addictionfoods.com/products/dog-formulas/raw-dehydrated/perfect-summer-brushtail

Merrick 96% Pork canned

merrickpetcare.com

Tucker’s Pork and Bison (raw)

tuckersbones.com

Bravo Blend Pork, Bravo Boneless Bison and Venison, Bravo Basics Rabbit

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/dog_frozen_blends_pork.html

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by pugmomsandy.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[crazy4cats]

We have an inexpensive large area rug that we try to make them stay on while eating/chewing their bones.

[Kristy M]

I have a question for you big breed folks that feed raw. We have two spoiled indoor rough collies and a doggie door, which means they can get in and out whenever they want. How do you feed messy stuff like this without trashing your house? I can’t lock them outdoors with their bones, and the weather in Atlanta is frequently too hot or too rainy to force them outdoors for extended time anyway…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jerry –

There’s nothing really wrong with the Blue Buffalo Health Bars, they’re definitely a big step up from treats like Milk Bones, but they aren’t exactly “healthy” despite the name. They’re really high in carbs. While they’d certainly be fine for an occasional treat, if it were me I’d search for a more protein rich treat. I like to give my dogs freeze-dried raw “complete” foods (e.g. Stella & Chewy’s, Nature’s Variety Instinct, Primal, etc.) which typically come in small medallions or nuggets, air-dried ZiwiPeak (also a complete food) or “jerky” type treats with a high meat content from reputable companies (e.g. Etta Says, Bixbi, The Real Meat Co., etc.). I wouldn’t give raw carrots as treats, most dogs don’t need the extra carbs in their diets and raw vegetables are digested very poorly by dogs.

[Akari_32]

Hope everyone had an awesome day! We got up, made egg sammiches for breakfast, opened presents, went to one grandmas for another round of presents and visiting, then did early dinner at the other grandmas.

The dogs loved destroying the wrapping paper on their gifts and eating the treats I spiked them all with, and yesterday we had an explodey-leak problem at my friends condo, so we did not get to the store for the big dogs bones. However, I had a partial bag of those frozen Natures Variety Raw Bites and took some ham trimmings and sweet potato skins from dinner and made them a yummy meal. The kitty loved his Natural Balance fish-stuff, but could care less about opening them lol

Mom got me *both* the new Pokemon games (Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire!), some candy, a wall mount for my TV that lives at the foot of my bed on the floor because I have no where for it go with out a wall mount, some other random things (gift cards, AUX cord for my car radio, and so on), my assorted grandmas got me Pokemon Blue for the GameBoy Color I found at Goodwill for 10 bucks, a Magic Bullet, assorted gift cards, and a yummy smelling, beach-themed candle 😀

I got mom a new oven mit, Maleficent on BluRay, and a Baymax toy, because who doesn’t love Baymax?? I never know what to get this chick, and she gets upset that I spend money on her. She likes motorcycle and baseball and golf stuff– all things I know nothing about. She was very happy to see her new oven mit and Baymax toy, though lol She also got lots of Teavana tea and goodies, and she’s been wired up on hot tea all day LOL

It was great spending the whole day with a good chunck of my family, and considering I asked for litterally nothing, I made out pretty good! LOL Omega Ruby is awesome! I haven’t played the original in forever because I don’t have a system to play it on. And Blue is fantastic!! Makes me feel old lol The game isn’t much younger than I am!

I’m finishing my day up snuggled up on the couch with a Ginger Burrito (wrapped in my new blanket!!!) on my chest :3 Merry Christmas guys!

[Akari_32]

Merry Christmass, everyone!

For Haley and Dweezle, we also get them huge bones, sometimes raw hides, sometimes big huge pig knuckles. Depends on way we find. I may brave the grocery store for a couple pig knuckles. If not, the pet store will be much less scary, and they’ll just get raw hides LOL That’s what I get for waiting till Christmass eve to shop for them. Bentley and Ginger have some treats and a Fruitables chew each.

The cat has nothing so far. I want to buy him some cat nip, though, for his turbo chaser toy thing (round, with a ball in a track, and a scratching pad in the middle). I also want to buy him toys, but he eats anything small and hard (found that out the hard way, $400 later) and Bentley destroys anything with feathers on it, so that’s rules out 99% of all cat toys LOL He does have a few cans of special food, though. He better like it, that’s all I have to say! He’ll have a great time with the gift bag, at least! Darn cats…

[theBCnut]

I had to run real quick. DH needed all the internet to get some work done. All around Christmas I buy every kind of treat I see, so the dogs, cats, horses, goats, and chickens get all kinds of stuff all around Christmas, not just Christmas day. The horses will get peppermints and the goats and chickens will get extra sunflower seeds. The cats will get Temptations(not good, but the only treat I’ve found that they like and they don’t get them often). The dogs get big bones, new toys, and lots of silly play time.

[Dog_Obsessed]

I give my dog treats. Most of the treats are store-bought mostly or all meat treats, though I sometimes make homemade treats, (recipe ideas here: /forums/topic/has-anyone-made-homemade-dog-treats/) or buy treats with more carbs that I think of as “junk food.” If I have given her a lot of treats, such as for training, then I reduce her food appropriately. I wouldn’t really recommend Milk Bones or Busy Bones (I assume you mean the Purina ones), because they are mostly grain fillers. For ideas on what to look for in a dog treat, check out this topic: /forums/topic/your-most-recommended-dog-treats/

As for treats contributing to weight gain, that could certainly be possible. From what I understand treats should not make up more than 10% of the overall diet. It can help to break treats into tiny pieces for training, or use lower calorie treats.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Dog_Obsessed.

[Peggy]

Another question… do you feed your dog(s) treats? Ours have come to expect one every time they go outside to do their business. I’m not sure how we got into this habit but I’m sure it has contributed to weight gain as well.

We usually treat them with a Milk Bone.
Also they love those Busy Bones.

[Akari_32]

I will occasionally give her and Bentley a raw hide stick to chew on, and some times she will chew on it for a while, especially after Bentleys got a hold of it and slobbered it all up, but it just doesn’t seem like the most fun thing for her. It’s like she feels obligated to do it, but doesn’t really want to. It’s almost like she only does it because she doesn’t want Bentley to have two bones lol I’d imagine is also hurts her mouth to chew it, as well.

Neezer, that’s my thought as well. If it doesn’t bother them, then I leave it. She’s got this unsightly fatty tumor hanging from her neck that looks, as the vet she came from puts it, like testicles. It’s not attached to the muscle underneath at all, it’s just chilling there, in its little skin-pouch looking all inappropriate and such LOL Oh well, such is life :p

[Akari_32]

She’s got a few smaller spots like this on her face, as well. Not all crazy shaped, they’re still round, but I can tell they are the makings of something just like if they ever get that big.

I have not canceled the vet appointment. The thing still bleeds when it’s bothered. If it needs some antibiotic cream or something to help it heal over (provided it doesn’t need to be removed) or something else needs to be done to it to keep it from getting nasty (or nastier, anyways), I want to do it. Tuesday will also have been a week since she’s been on her ear drops, and I’m supposed to call and tell him how she’s doing on them, so he can adjust the dose, so we might as well just do it all in person. I’d also like him to peek in her mouth and see if the antibiotics are clearing her mouth up. The poor things gums were bright red, and she’s been snipping at me when I get too close to her mouth during ear and cheek rubs. I wish I could get her to chew bones or something. I can’t stand the thought of putting her under anesthesia at her age, and she needs a dental some sort of terrible. She just doesn’t know how to play and have fun, much less chew a bone. Her idea of a good time is a bowl full of food lol I did buy her a dental chew for Christmas (I think it’s Fruitables brand, actually), as I’ve gotten her to eat greenies before, but it’s pretty hard. I may just buy her the senior greenies, as they are softer, even though greenies aren’t the best. The dog can’t live on antibiotics the rest of her, weather they’re free or not! lol

[Jennifer H]

Yes, my goal weight is 11 lbs, so 2.5 oz per meal at 3%. Some meals are 3oz, those are the RMB portions because I try to keep the bones pretty big so he can’t swallow them whole. He’s usually a good chewer though. I let him have a pork tail for fun this afternoon and he had a blast. I was surprised he limited himself, he only ate half.

I know 3% is a bit high, but I worry about blood sugar, and I had seen a few people suggest feeding up to 4% to small dogs.

I also have a small flock of backyard chickens and he will get a raw egg 2x a week. He refuses to eat the shell though, even if I break it up.

Are tinned sardines okay? I can get them in brine or oil. Not sure which is best…

[Sadie’s Mom]

Surprisingly, the first thing I look for in a treat is the texture. My mini dachshund HATES crunchy treats. It’s the strangest thing! The only crunchy/hard things she likes are the rawhide dental chews (Dentley’s brand is the current favorite). I also have to factor in price, as I am a college student living on a tight budget. The best thing I have found are the Zuke’s Mini Naturals. They are soft and squishy, grain free, and low in calories. Sadie likes all of the flavors, but the chicken seems to be her favorite. I’ve been wanting to try the Wellness Petite Treats Soft Mini Bites, but they haven’t been on sale for a good price. The Zuke’s are a better deal because they are less per ounce and last a really long time. I give her 3 or 4 at a time as a normal treat to make her feel better since the other 3 dogs my parents own get small milkbones lol. She also likes the Milkbone Brushing Chews after her evening meal. I give her half a mini bone. I am currently on the hunt for a treat with added glucosamine that is reasonably priced. Any suggestions?