Best Raw Dog Foods

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A raw dog food diet is designed to mimic a dog’s natural ancestral menu. The whole concept of raw feeding is based upon a dog’s instinctive carnivorous bias — a built-in desire to capture (or find) and eat another animal.
Wolf with Raw Food

As unsavory as it may seem, it is completely natural for a wolf to consume the entire animal.

Meat, bones, organs and all.

As direct descendants of wolves, dogs are simply not genetically optimized to consume the 50% carbohydrate content of today’s commercial kibbles.

So, how do these diets compare?

The Ancestral Diet
Compared to Dry Kibble

No one can argue the dry baked pellets we call dog food aren’t convenient. Yet the nutrient profile of a dry kibble is nowhere near the nutrient content of a dog’s ancestral diet.

Canine Ancestral Diet versus Dry Dog Food

Notice the higher carbohydrate content of the kibble compared to the dog’s natural ancestral diet. Or how about the dramatically lower protein and fat levels?

The Benefits of a Raw Diet

Feeding a raw dog food diet has many notable benefits

  • Firmer stools
  • Improved digestion
  • Healthier skin and coat
  • Reduced allergy symptoms
  • Better weight management

There have been many reports of improved health when chronically ill pets were switched from a commercial product to a raw dog food.

The Downside
of a Raw Dog Food Diet

A raw dog food diet can’t touch the convenience of a kibble. Just measure and pour. It just doesn’t get any easier.

Yet besides the lack of convenience, there’s another critical issue. Bacterial contamination.

Salmonella and E. coli germs can always be a potential problem with raw meats. Yet the risk of food-borne disease is actually quite low.

That is, low risk for dogs. But not for humans.

That’s because a dog’s digestive system is shorter and more acidic.

Which makes canine infections like these fairly rare.

The real risk of food-borne disease is actually greater for a dog’s human caretakers — not the dog.

Yet with proper care and handling, this risk can be dramatically reduced.

How to Use Our List

Below you’ll find a list of the Advisor’s suggested raw dog foods. Of course, this list should not be considered a complete catalog of all the raw dog foods on the market.

For there are others. Many others.

We only provide this small group as a starting point.

As a matter of fact, if you know of a specific dog food you believe we should have included on this list, please feel free to share your recommendations in the Comments section below.

Or if you’re looking for some suggestions yourself, be sure to look through our readers’ Comments to find more good ideas.

Suggested Raw Dog Foods

  • Jazmin

    Hi, I just got an English bulldog, breeder said she was feeding her pedigree which to be honest I don’t believe her since her coat was so beautiful I think she was in a raw diet because of a comment the breeder told me, I’ve already tried taste of the wild,earthbound holistic, and some of the merrick can food she won’t eat, at all!!!!! Its very frustrating but my last hope is to try the raw, now which one ? Thanks!!!

  • hoohoolianFUCLA

    I make my own for about $1/day. I am using a simple recipe: 1 whole raw chicken with some of the fat removed (I remove the huge fat clumps at the entrance to the body cavity, cut up whole flesh and grind the skin and bones), 4-6 pan-cooked eggs, shells ground up with the bones and varying amounts of white rice. I added a raw carrot to the last batch.

    Leg portions seemed to be too bone-heavy (with the 1/2 back), yielding sandy poo. Just using thighs resulted in the runs; not enough bone. Double bone thighs was good (I ate 1/2 the meat). Whole chicken without the back, ribs and wings seems to be working very well. (I love wings, but wing tips are ground into dog food as they are a VERY important source of good cartilage).

    My 60-pound Border Collie is a well-mannered, aggressive chaser. I have been varying the mix to find the right blend. after fasting and incremental introduction, he still had the runs for 4-5 days. increased % of ground bones have now solidified stools.

    My big concern at this point is that he does not pass stools regularly. I would say that 16oz of the chicken-bone-egg food, fed 8oz in morning/8oz in evening with some rice, yields 4-5 gumballs of hard poo. I have increased the rice to 50% of each meal (by weight) in hopes of more poo, but the result over the last 2 days remains the same.

    Is this ratio of food-in/poo out proper? His energy is continues to be…well…typical of a border collie.

    Further, I am concerned that his pee is dark yellow. I cannot force him to drink; should I salt his food? We live in Las Vegas.

  • Pitlove

    Hi Sarah- It’s because there is no review for it period. If you would like to see a review and rating of this food, use this link to submit a request for a review:

    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/contact-us/suggest-dog-food-review/

    Not sure how fast you will see a review as Dr. Mike has a lot of requests for reviews on the newer foods coming out, but this is where you would start.

  • Sarah Coppard

    I notice Mountain Dog Food is not on the list .. any reasons why? My dogs have been on this raw food for a couple years and love it.

  • Dolores Bello

    HAS ANYONE TRIED ALL PROVIDE RAW.

  • Gus Morgan

    @kerrybirtles:disqus Please do your research before starting raw food diet. Puppies require more frequent feeding and have different needs than adult dogs. Also, dogs do not require fruits and vegetables for nutrition so try finding your own sources for human grade meat rather than use commercial raw food which can contain a lot of unnecessary carbohydrates that dogs do not need. I would recommend a few sources that I used when starting raw feeding: read Lew Olson’s Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals and check out her newsletters: https://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/. Also, check out Mary Straus’s website: http://www.dogaware.com.

  • CJ3

    We took in another dob so my raw food bill will be double now….can anyone tell me if they know what service is most cost effective (still good quality)…currently we use Darwins. Thsnks!

  • thereisacreator

    DO not just feed your dog raw chicken. Commercial raw dog food diets should include organic vegetable and fruits (no grains) as they provide antioxidants and vitamins.

    First, you need to find out what the breeder is feeding the dog. A good breeder should be feeding the puppies good dog food. If you decide to switch the puppy to a raw diet, you have to do it very slowly adding a small amount of raw to the current diet and slowly removing the old dog food (will take about 2 weeks). If you don’t do this you get rewarded by very loose stools.

    You can choose a raw diet (either frozen that you thaw or freeze-dried that you reconstitute with water) by selecting chicken or lamb only which is easier to digest. Primal Freeze Dried Nuggets (chicken) can be crumbled over current dog food to introduce without reconstituting. Raw dog food is not cheap so many people combine both a good kibble and raw freeze dried. Every dog food has directions on how much to feed–particularly for puppies and then when they are about 18 months old, by weight to maintain their weight.

    .

  • aquariangt

    Sounds like you want to go prey model, i’d definitely do a ton, ton, ton of research to get that down correctly for a puppy, but especially a large breed. Try asking on the forum side in the large and giant breed puppy nutrition thread, and maybe Hound Dog Mom or another homemade raw feeder will see it and be able to respond.

  • aimee

    If I were to feed raw to a puppy I’d use a commercial product that is HPP and has been through feeding trials for growth. Feeding mistakes during growth have dire consequences.

  • Kerry Birtles

    Hi there, I am getting a Shar Pei puppy that is 13weeks old. I want to feed it a raw diet.

    I am going to start on chicken, first question:
    How much do I feed it per day?
    Do I feed it chicken quarters and how often?
    Also, what age does it become adult and then how much should I feed it, how often and how much per day?
    Thanks in advance

  • Vishwas

    Hello, I have a year old GSD and I want to move her to a completely raw food diet. She is now on Merritt dry dog food. I have moved to India, where I can get fresh cut meat delivered every day. Where do I begin, and what else do I add to the fresh cut meat. The delivery guy can give me a combination of liver/thighs/breasts etc. But I need to know if I should feed her anything more. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

  • Enya Walsh

    Would getting their patties be any cheaper? You’d have to let them thaw some. And finding a cheaper supplier, or one that doesn’t charge as much for shipping, could trim costs. wag.com is the cheapest I’ve found — they don’t carry Primal’s full line, but they may have what you want.

  • Crazy4dogs

    I often buy the 5 lb chubs of Bravo Balance since it’s a better value with big dogs. I let them thaw just slightly so I can get a knife started.
    I don’t think a circular saw would work, but an electric knife might.
    If you have a reciprocating saw and new blades, that might work.

  • Nik Kecyk

    When I bought the 5lb chubs I would let them thaw about 50% of the way and then I would eye up 5 portions as my dog gets a pound per meal. Two chubs would last me approx 5 days. I’ve gone thru the beef and the chicken varieties and still I am drawn back to their bags with the one ounce cubes. Just easier to handle and my dog doesn’t even let it thaw. She just chews down the frozen one ounce nuggets no problem.

  • Enya Walsh

    Primal has the grinds, which are only muscle, organ, bone; mixes, which have some supplementation; and formulas, that are complete and balanced diets — according to their web site. Formulas come in 8 ounce patties. Pronto options are their formulas in kibble size. Works much better than the eight ounce chunks I just got from Darwin’s, I suspect. But then an 8 oz. chunk is easier than a 2 or 5 pound chub.

    I don’t like to thaw and refreeze meat. I wonder if I could cut a frozen chub roll with a circular saw.

  • Nik Kecyk

    Funny you say that because I’m currently feeding the Primal Pronto!! She loves it and have no issues at all. The chub they sell is an 85% meat, organ, and bone, and 15% produce. It’s cheaper per pound but isn’t a complete and balanced diet. Their Pronto formula is 77% meat, organ, bone and 23% produce and supplements. A few more dollars per pound but an absolute convenience and a great product all together. I’ve been in contact with Primal and asked if they were gonna make bigger sizes of products but the 3 lb and 4 lb bags are where their profit margins are best. I inquired about 10lb or 20lb bags and they said it would be too expensive for them to produce and too expensive to be sold. But yeah, glad you mentioned that because it’s exactly what I use.

  • Enya Walsh

    I know I’m late to the party but 80/20 raw ground beef (just muscle meat) is not a balanced source of beef. Mixing it with kibble and raw eggs doesn’t make up for deficiencies — unless you are feeding a kibble formula designed for supplementation of raw muscle, and I’ve never heard of such a thing.

    I’m frequently tempted to do a little of everything and cross my fingers, but a better source of beef would be a Primal mix or grind. wag.com has reasonable shipping rates.

  • Enya Walsh

    Darwin’s web site shows a lower percentage of their dog food is meat. It doesn’t mean that it’s bad, I just got their sample pack today, and all that raw formula frozen dog food for $14.95 is a steal! I am definitely trying it out!

    You can get Primal Raw from wag.com or amazon.com with either $5.99 or free shipping, depending on the size of your order. At those prices, it’s all worth trying!

  • Chelsea Lynn

    Never ever feed raw and kibble together!! They are digested completely differently. When you feed raw your dogs stomach enzymes that break down food actually change to break down the raw (which is easier on their stomach to digest). When you add kibble your dogs stomach has to work extra hard to digest and gets confused because the enzymes are now there to break down raw. Kibble is harder on a dog to digest especially once they are on raw. Do your research because it will all say never ever feed together! It’s not good for your dog or their stomach. It’s a huge no no when feeding raw!!!!

  • Caroline Capobianco

    I started out mixing canned and kibble, then moved to dehydrated/freeze dried and kibble, then to raw and kibble. My dog was able to handle it fine. Some dogs tummies are easily upset and other are not. I would just start mixing things in slowly. It would be beneficial to add a digestive enzyme and probiotic combo at mealtimes too to help with digestion.

  • Crazy4cats

    I also feed raw and kibble together as well as canned and kibble together with no digestive upset.

  • Steve

    I place raw Darwin’s and Orijen kibble in the food bowl together everyday and have for nearly a year. I just described this in another post yesterday on this site’s forums.

  • http://www.aranmorems.com Fiona Macken

    never mix raw and kibble…at least, that’s what I’ve heard. The digestion rates for each are different and can upset your dogs balance

  • Doglover

    Grain is a key issue, with allergies, corn sits growing molds in silos, pets are given feed grade food, often pet food is not rotated before we buy it. It’s sad that FDA now has taken the right to say our pet food is human grade on a package, because they don’t want to explain that feed grade is what everyone is getting .

  • nicole

    If I want to mix dry food and raw food for my Shetland Sheepdog, what is the best way to do so? I plan to feed him mainly with dry food then maybe wet food once a week and raw food once a week. I think then he could get full range of nutrients from different types of food, but I also bit worry about the way will get him a upsad digest system. Should I mix his food?

  • JeremyScott10

    Thanks so much el doctor. And no, unfortunately I am not the designer.

  • el doctor

    I’m actually working on a website now. Just click on my profile for my info

  • el doctor

    Hi JeremyScott10

    Not at the moment. Does your name have anything to do with the designer?

  • JeremyScott10

    el doctor, do you have a website? thanks.

  • Crazy4cats

    I’m not!

  • Crazy4dogs

    Bobby dog and DogFoodie have given you some good advice. Metranidazole is the treatment for Giardia. Sulfadimethoxine is for Coccidia. They can be difficult to diagnose and you can get a negative fecal if the Giardia is not shedding. Did your vet do a float fecal or did it get sent to the Lab for a specific test? Being in a day care environment can result in parasites.
    In regard to food, overfeeding often causes loose stool. You could try to slowly mix a small portion of his food in with the chicken and rice. If the diarrhea comes back when it’s a mix, I would switch to a different food.

  • DogFoodie

    Like your first thought, it’s probably that he’s reacting to some ingredient in the food you were feeding.

    Also, how much are you feeding? Over-nutrition is one of the leading causes of loose stool.

  • Charles Junior

    Yes Bob, negative stool sample..I’m perplexed.. Why would his stool be normal on rice and chicken but not on kibble??

  • Bobby dog

    Hi Charles:
    Have you had your puppy specifically tested for Giardia and Coccidia? Here’s some info on both:
    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2386&S=0&EVetID=3001644

    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=680&S=0&EVetID=3001644

  • Charles Junior

    So I have a lab/shep mix, 8 months old, 55 lbs to date, will grow close to 80-90 lbs. I have had him on Wellness puppy dry food since I adopted him.. He goes to doggy daycare during the week while I work, unfortunately have no choice with my schedule, but he loves it there. So he has had intermittent diarrhea on and off for months. Recently took him to vet, he was put on metronidazole and a probiotic. I rested him with rice and boiled chicken, his stool resumes to normal within a day or two. I continue with chicken/rice diet, then resume his Wellness kibble, then boom diarrhea. I notice he scratches a lot and he is on a preventative and no signs of fleas. I think he is having a reaction to dry food. I am thinking about raw diet. Gonna go back to rice and chicken for a bit, then try raw diet. Any suggestions on how to implement this diet?? Thank you..

  • http://theuglypugglyboutique.com/ sandy

    You would need to contact Primal for their typical analysis of the formulas. The guaranteed analysis only states the minimum amounts of protein and fat so a particular formula can have more protein and fat which results in less carbs. If you like no carbs, Primal Grinds do not contain plant matter and you can customize your raw.

  • Gary Rokuta

    Which has definitely less carbs, Primal or Darwins. The sales mngr at Darwin’s said 6% but the dog food advisor stated around 10 to 16 %. Correct me if I’m wrong. I was told by the owner of Thomaston’s Holistic Feed stores in New England that Primal has too many carbs, way too many. Didn’t get to ask about Darwin’s. It’s more easy for me to get Primal here in Honolulu, Hi.To get Darwin’s as I did once last month, with ups delivery, it costed around $340 for a month’s supply with dry ice. Many of you dogs people are more than willing to spend that amount for a month?

  • el doctor

    Hi Dori

    I use a 3 stage/cartridge filter under the kitchen sink.

    http://www.amazon.com/Watts-Premier-531130-Filter-Pure-Filtration/dp/B002XISS2Y/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1431211893&sr=1-3&keywords=Premier+UF3+3-stage+Ultra

    And I also use a water distiller

    http://www.amazon.com/Water-Distiller-Countertop-Enamel-Collection/dp/B00026F9F8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1431211117&sr=8-2&keywords=water+distiller

    I alternate between the 2, about 66% under sink to 33% distilled. I don’t use a reverse osmosis filter because of all the water they waste, though they filter better than a 3 stage filter.

    The reason I go 2 to 1 is because distillers remove EVERYTHING from the water and some think that too much distilled water can actually start to pull minerals from the body to make up for the lack of minerals in the water.

    Me and my dogs only drink filtered water or distilled. I cook with filtered water. If I heat the water I do it on the stove, not the microwave.

    The instahot is tankless so the water is not sitting in a vessel building up sediment and minerals, but it’s NOT filtered. It does NOT go through the water heater. It uses cold water and “instantly” heats it.

    I use ice cubes that are filtered by the fridge filter and occasionally use the filtered cold water from the fridge. It is a decent 1 stage filter.

    Whenever you use filters you MUST make sure to change them according to schedule, if you don’t they will ADD bacteria and impurities to the water instead of removing them.

    A water distiller will show you whatever impurities and minerals are in your water. They will all be left on the bottom of the distiller after the water is distilled.

  • Dori

    Thanks for the reply el doctor. So the Instant Hot Faucet at my kitchen sink wouldn’t work either, you’re saying, because basically the water is coming initially from the hot water heaters anyway? What are your thoughts on the water coming from the door on refrigerators that have yet another filter that gets changed out every 4 – 6 months as drinking water? Would that water be better or make no difference whatsoever as drinking water for our dogs from the regular sink or should we be buying reverse osmosis water for their drinking water?

  • el doctor

    Hi Dori, sorry for the delay.

    A whole house filtration system is good for giving you filtered water everywhere in your house. It won’t really make a difference in the drinking quality of the hot water, it will only help the quality of the cold water.

    It really doesn’t matter if you put a regular filter before of after the hot water heaters, they won’t remove the excess minerals in the hot water and in my opinion the hot water will still remain contaminated and unsafe to eat or drink.

    A water softener would help remove excess minerals but they either use salt, of some other additive to remove the minerals. While this might be a good idea to help extend the life of your water heaters and pipes it still is not something I would drink!

  • Salty2

    Thank you!!

  • Crazy4dogs

    I’ve seen raw dehydrated in a couple of specialty pet stores but I’m not sure how they are compared to raw fresh or frozen. I’m not sure I’ve seen raw organic turkey necks

  • Salty2

    Hi! Yes, I am feeding Raw Beef & Turkey

  • Crazy4dogs

    I know you’ve posted before but I can’t remember. Are you feeding raw?

  • Crazy4dogs

    Very interesting! You know I do agree with high protein, less carbs. That’s what I feed my dogs and use coconut oil. I was not aware of that added benefit of coconut oil.

  • Shawna

    “The only way to really get a dog to lose weight is to feed them less and/or exercise them more.”

    This has been long believed and supported but it appears that this is not correct. One example — coconut oil provides 9 calories per gram and corn (or any other grain) oil provides 9 calories per gram but coconut oil actually initiates weight loss (despite the same number of calories as other oils/fats).

    This Journal of Nutrition article does state that other research has shown satiety on high protein, moderate fat and low carb diets causes a voluntary decrease of overall calories due to satiety BUT these researchers did not find that in their study.
    “High-Protein Low-Carbohydrate Diets Enhance Weight Loss in Dogs
    This study, however, found no differences in the calories consumed among the groups, whereas the low-carbohydrate groups still lost significantly more weight and fat mass
    than the high-carbohydrate groups. This suggests that decreased caloric intake is not the sole mechanism of action of low-carbohydrate diets.” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2087S.full

    Lectins are also associated with weight gain as they can block insulin receptors – dairy and wheat are two that are know to do this. Toxins (both from food and environment) are contributing factors to weight gain/loss. Body fat is a storage site for toxins (we consider grain fed beef to be more toxic than grass fed and grain fed are fattier (more marbled). Leptin resistance (from the type of carb eaten) is a factor in weight gain as well. Carbs higher in fructose can lead to more weight gain than carbs lower in fructose — due to leptin resistance. According to nutrition data.com rice, especially wild rice, is a grain higher in fructose. I’m not clear how foods affect leptin resistance in dogs but dogs do get leptin resistance — they even have an ELISA test to check for leptin resistance in dogs.

    EZCL-31K | Canine Leptin ELISA

  • Crazy4dogs

    Good advice! I always use filtered water that I warm to add to the morning kibble/canned feeding.

  • Dori

    What about if you have a whole house filtration system el doctor?

  • el doctor

    Hi Britt

    You’ve gotten some good advice from the previous posters!

    I just wanted to let you know you should never add warm water from the faucet to your dog’s food. The hot water from your faucet is heated in a tank that is full of sludge, impurities and excess minerals.

    If you want to use warm or hot water for eating or drinking you should use cold water and heat it up on the stove.

    Hope this helps!

  • Salty2

    Does anyone know where I can get Organic Turkey Necks/Wings? I want to strengthen my pups stomach muscles, to keep him from bloat. He’s allergic to Chicken, which is why I want Turkey. A friend told me to never get them at a supermarket, they are the #1 in Salmonella. Is there anywhere online to buy them?

  • theBCnut

    Short exercise periods several times a day will help keep her metabolism up. Don’t give treats or additions that contain much in the way of carbs. Lean meats are best. Try soaking her food in warm water to bulk it up some, so she thinks she is getting more than she is. Also, try to find ways to make her work for her food, like trick training, so that meal time is prolonged without adding calories.

  • Salty2

    I had my 14 wk Standard Poodle puppy allergy tested from Glacier, because he was getting so many ear infections. He was on Natures Variety Frozen Chicken Raw Food. So I find out he has allergy sensitivities to Chicken & Lamb, the 2 he was on! I know he should have bones, so although I’m giving him beef, I read that Chicken & Turkey necks/wings strengthen the stomach walls. Friends tell me never to get Turkey bones at supermarket, they are #1 for Salmonella! So what can I do? Where can I get them? Any suggestions?

  • Crazy4dogs

    The only way to really get a dog to lose weight is to feed them less and/or exercise them more. If she is having joint issues, they are only compounded by the weight. If you are going to feed a home cooked diet you really need to research this as you can be creating serious deficiencies unless you research it and really know how to balance the diet. You might look into Whole Dog Journal or this website:

    http://dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html

  • Britt

    Hi! I need some suggestions to get weight off my LG Samoyed/border Collie mix!! She just chubbed up & its HARD to get it off her without creating pain in her legs & joints from exercise. She LOVES to play ball & go FULL FORCE! So its hard to exercise her “slowly”! I have to wear her out a bit before walking her, as she pulls! Even hurting! I’ve put her on low Cal/diet Merrick dry. The chicken/rice seemed to be the culprit it adding weight to her & her Pomeranian sister! Id like to add “REAL FOOD” for weight loss!! They LOVE cauliflower, apples, beets & carrot. No spinich, greens, berries… I also don’t want to encourage the pom to beg!! Luna Blu LOVES FRESH GREEN JUICES THO! STEALS MINE! How would cooked chicken, sweet potato, broccoli or cauliflower w apples or carrots as snacks work with

  • http://DogRap.com/ El Doctor

    I feed my dogs deer, elk, moose, beef, chicken, pork, turkey, sardines, anchovies, buffalo…

    As long as they were was raised without hormones, antibiotics, or pesticide laden foods and raised in as close to their natural environment as I can find in today’s ever increasing CAFO environment. All the fish I feed are wild caught

    I include sprouted nuts and seeds, and many different organically grown plants.

    I work with individuals and small groups or companies who are interested in caring for their dogs in a more species appropriate and environmentally ethical manner.

  • Shawna

    If you don’t mind my asking, what food/s do you feed?

    I’d love to hear more about what exactly it is you do.

  • Shawna

    I couldn’t agree more El Doctor!!

  • http://DogRap.com/ El Doctor

    Hi Shawna

    When it comes to feeding eggs to dogs what is of greatest concern to me is how the egg laying chickens are raised. I have a PhD in animal ethics and my field is canine environmental and food ethics.

    No animals should have to suffer the way the majority of U.S food animals suffer. Being raised for food should not be a life sentence of torture and misery.

  • Shawna

    Okay, that’s a very good point about higher biotin equaling higher avidin… Guess I should have thought that through better.. :)

    I would also agree that free range eggs may not be more nutritious. When I was researching this (after we started buying eggs straight from the farm with the most intensely orange yolks I had ever seen) I found that young hens eating a nutrient dense diet produced the best, most nutrient dense eggs. This, of course, makes perfect sense.

    Regarding digestibility of raw/cooked eggs, BCnut and I had a conversation a few months back about digestion. That conversation made me think of something. Liquid foods pass from the stomach to intestines more quickly than solids. This surely could impact how much pepsin raw versus cooked egg whites are subjected to. My question is, will eating the raw egg with other foods slow down the digestion of the raw egg allowing more time for pepsin contact? I know food moves on as it becomes chyme but still wondering if eating with a protein meal would slow things down?

    Regarding whipping egg whites and churning during digestion. The churning is in the stomach where pepsin is acting on the proteins. I would assume that this is the difference.

  • aimee

    Like any good scientist I make reasonable conclusions based on available data. To date all the available data supports the conclusion that the amount of biotin in the egg doesn’t offset the avidin. And as any good scientist, I’m very open to changing that conclusion when or if new data comes available.

    One thought is that the function of avidin, through the binding of biotin, prevents bacterial growth in the egg during chick development. If that is the case then it makes sense sufficient avidin would be present to bind all the biotin present.

    If you choose to assume that free range eggs have a higher biotin level, what is it that prevents an equally valid assumption that the avidin level is higher as well.?

    I wouldn’t say that free range are more likely to be more nutrient dense just that it is possible. It is also possible for them to be less nutrient dense. To make a meaningful comparison between commercial and free range I’d want to see the same variety/strain of chicken, the same age and most importantly all eggs go to the same lab at the same time. Different labs may have differing testing methodology making comparing results from different labs and times unreliable.

    Here is one such study: http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/90/7/1600.abstract

  • Shawna

    I’ll have to come back to your post to me aimee as I don’t have time right now to fully comment.

    YOU assume there isn’t enough biotin in the egg yolk to offset the avidin in the white because of a few papers you saw that you agree were likely done with factory farmed eggs. You also agree that free range eggs are likely more nutrient dense (more calcium in the shell etc) then factory farmed.

    When recommending raw eggs, most of us also suggest including the yolk and are most often talking with folks already feeding a complete and balanced diet (which will have at least the minimum biotin required to be labeled complete and balanced). Many, if not most, of us also suggest farm raised eggs (and the addition of probiotics) as well as feeding eggs 3 to no more than 4 days a week. Lots of variables to consider.

  • aimee

    I understand she was including the whole egg. While there is biotin in the yolk it is not enough to offset the avidin in the white which is why there are cases of biotin deficiency reported when eating whole raw eggs.

    I agree that cooking decreases some of the nutrients. While the white is chock full of protein the majority of the egg nutrients are in the yolk. Some choose to feed the yolk raw, preserving the nutrient levels and lightly cooking the white to destroy the anti nutrient factors.

    This makes the most sense to me when choosing to incorporate raw egg into a diet.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Sorry to butt into this but I think Shawna was including the whole egg in her comment.

    At any rate I did find this for those who would be interested in the raw egg usage. I realize this is for human consumption and this is a .com site which I just found recently, but I think it might be relevant and the sources cited seem to be current and credible.

    http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=347

  • aimee

    I agree that as long as there is sufficient biotin in the diet from other sources a clinical deficiency wouldn’t occur.

    It becomes somewhat of a non issue just like the phytate in grains is a non issue as long as there are sufficient minerals in the diet.

    However, both avidin and phytate can become a problem in diets not replete with the substances they bind

    In regards to the glutathion dipeptide precursor in raw egg, I haven’t found any papers showing any clinical relevance. Cells contain the enzyme to make this dipeptide so I don’t see the any real benefit here. Considering that overall protein digestibility of raw egg white is poor, has it been documented that the precursor is even absorbed?

    Additionally, if mechanical agitation (“whipping”) disrupts this precursor I’d think the mechanical beating and acid bath in the stomach might also disrupt it.

    After considering all the available information I see no benefit to feeding raw over cooked egg white.

    Frankly with the high content of anti nutrient factors I’m surprised that you’d even consider feeding it. It seems to be a 180 degree departure from your usual anti-nutrient posistion.

  • aimee

    Yep! But I don’t know if biotin is produced in any significant amount.

  • Shawna

    Good gut flora is beneficial too as they produce several vitamins including biotin.

  • aimee

    Yep.. biotin deficiency is a problem with raw whites. Cooking neutralizes the anti nutrient responsible for this. I only mentioned it because it is often incorrectly reported that there is enough biotin in the yolk to offset the anti-nutrient in the white. This is not true. If your diet is rich in biotin then likely no problem but if the diet is marginal it can be problematic.

  • theBCnut

    Fenbendazole works too, but you have to give it 3 days in a row.

  • Salty2

    Thank you!

  • Crazy4dogs

    If you do go the chemical route, make sure that you are getting Panacur, Droncit or Praziquantel as these are for tapeworm treatment.

  • Crazy4dogs

    LOL Shawna! I stepped away for a bit before finishing my comment and see you have answered it too!
    Very interesting about the whipping. I do it so everyone gets an even mix since I split them between 3 or 4 dogs.

  • Crazy4dogs

    I’ve seen that article on biotin deficiency. It seems to be more atributed to raw egg white.
    I’ve done it both ways. When my old boy was in kidney failure I used cooked egg white for the low phosphorus content and was aware of the biotin deficiency when using egg white. I also needed to add more calcium to bind the phosphorus.
    On my current dogs, I was doing a light scramble (no oil, etc) of whole egg as an occaisional additiive to dinner. They were all gassy. When I added whole raw beaten egg, stools were normal and no gas.

  • Shawna

    From what I read biotin deficiency from raw egg whites isn’t seen much in diets that are not already low in biotin. I know a great many humans (including medical professionals) that eat raw egg/eggs daily.

    Regarding the digestibility of raw egg versus cooked — I imagine digestibility is not necessarily the ultimate factor in how a food performs. I’ve read that raw eggs, that have not had the protein matrix disrupted by whipping etc, have a protein structure that makes it easily utilized by the body to make glutathione. If cooking, to improve digestibility, disrupts the protein structure impeding production of glutathione, is digestibility really the best indicator of the quality of egg protein?

  • Crazy4dogs

    Yeah, glad I have the back up fridge. My procedure is exactly the same as yours! LOL!

  • Salty2

    Thank you!

  • Salty2

    Started on ground pumpkin seeds today.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Absolutely!!! My vet only does microscopic as it’s a more accurate test. The problem with tapeworm is they aren’t always in the stool and are only found when segments are shed.

  • Nik Kecyk

    Good call!!

  • Crazy4cats

    Sorry, not c4d, but I’ve had a lot of experience with stool samples. LOL! Yes, you can bring a sample to the vet to be tested. Make sure you bring one as fresh as possible. This is gross, but you can stick it in the frig until you are ready to take it to the vet to ensure freshness! They don’t need a lot. Just stick it in a zip lock baggie or similar and then in a grocery bag so you don’t have to look at it. But, if you are seeing the worms and they are tape, they don’t usually have to test it other than a visual. If you are concerned there may be something else as well, they will test. Good luck!

  • Salty2

    Do u bring stool sample to vet to be checked?

  • aimee

    When feeding egg with shell the ratio of Ca to Phos will always be heavily skewed towards calcium. I agree it will vary, thin shell vs thick shell, but it will always be high in relation to what is often thought of as the “perfect ” ratio 1.2:1.

    One way to think of it is to consider the chick that hatches from the egg. Wouldn’t ca be balanced to phos in the chick? The developing chick draws Ca from the shell yet the shell remains. Considering that the shell is nearly all ca carbonate a high amount of ca remains after the chick met it’s needs.

    Interesting that your dog had smelly gas when feeding the eggs cooked.vs raw. Did you cook both yolk and white?

    I did find several studies indicating poor growth and diarrhea in dogs using raw egg white as a protein source. Also found a case study of a child with biotin deficiency attributed to eating raw egg every other day and study in chicks that grew poorly unless the food was supplemented with biotin when feeding whole raw egg.

    In regards to Dogs Naturally the articles are opinion pieces and often contain inaccurate material.

    Several years ago Dogs Naturally asked me to write for them. I used to do some free lance writing ( many years ago). They told me they do not do any type of fact checking before printing.. they really need to.

  • aimee

    The sources didn’t specify but I’d assume conventionally raised. But yes I’d agree with you that the ratio could be a lot higher with thicker shelled eggs vs “store” eggs and could be lower with thinner shelled eggs. If the egg has a shell the Ca/Phos ratio when consuming both egg and shell will always be skewed with Ca being much higher than Phos.

  • Shawna

    The ginger might be easier to get down them in a glycerin based tincture. That’s how I give it to mine and I don’t have any that refuse it.

  • Shawna

    Yeah, we’ve had the whole gammit of nasties from the foster dogs. We’ve had giardia, coccidia, kennel cough, ringworm and several intestinal worms. No one has ever had heartworm though. I’ve read lots of good things about DE and worms but I don’t see how it could work on tapeworms.. There’s too many segments to hit them all and I’ve read the head is slightly buried so there’s no way it could reach the head.

    My girls got giardia but symptoms cleared in all dogs in two days with probiotics and fresh garlic. No symptoms in my dogs with coccidia or ringworm but they were exposed. No symptoms in mine from the intestinal worms (can’t remember now which worms?). They did get kennel cough but home care cleared that as well.

    I’m a rebel when it comes to heartworm. I don’t use any preventatives and haven’t for the 25 years I’ve owned dogs. I don’t have proof but I believe garlic likely kills the wolbachia bacteria in heartworm and there have been several studies that show it kills the worms too. Ginger extract was even more effective than garlic. Dr. Marty Goldstein has cleared heartworm with wormwood and black walnut. Dr. Falconer, I believe it is, has treated with homeopathics. Dr. Shelton is currently treating her heartworm positive adopted dog with essential oils and so on.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Yeah, my avatar had tapeworms which we found even after a clean fecal when we did our first vet visit. After an angry phone call with my vet and him giving me a TON of information on it, we cleared it with panacure. That was 10 years ago. Your dog must have had fleas at some point as that is the most common source of tapeworm. I found it when she was laying near me and it looked like a bit of carpet fuzz was stuck to her butt. I pulled it off and louped it (I’m a photographer, it’s a magnifier) and found it online. It was a tape. The link I posted above to Shawna could help you with using a natural method. BC is right, tapes are probably the least problematic of worms. The worst, from a fosterpoint of view is hookworm and whipworm. Difficult to deal with and cure, especially in multiple dog households.

  • Crazy4dogs

    aimee, I will have to get back to you on the eggshell debate. I worked all day, so I’m behind. I’ve read many different versions on the ratio. When I used it, I was binding phosphorus in a kidney failure dog, so I’m probably off.

    The interesting thing regarding your comment that raw egg white is poorly digested is that when I lightly cooked the eggs, my dogs had terrrible gas. When I add it raw to their diet, they processed it perfectly with no gas or abnormal stool in any manner. I have since only used raw egg as it seems to process better for my dogs.

    In the meantime, I do use this as a regular source and have had great luck with it. I’m not sure if you will agree with this, but they have very interesting articles:

    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/feeding-your-dog-raw-eggs-good-or-bad/

  • Salty2

    Thank you! Only thing I dont have is fresh ginger, I will pick it up tomorrow.

  • Crazy4dogs

    It worked for me as a preventative. My foster had a dose of panacur, but I used the “natural worm control” as he had already been treated several times with traditional methods. He has been clear since July of last year (adopted in September, but clear since). I posted a link. I don’t use the chems anymore, but test for heartworm and do fecals on a regular basis.

  • Crazy4dogs

    C4C, I just posted to Shawna above regarding worms. Been working ALL DAY.

  • Crazy4dogs

    I’ve posted to Shawna regarding my findings on DE and worms.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Hi All!

    I worked all day, so I’m behind. I used DE as a preventative since I tested my dogs when I found that my foster who had been with us for more than a month finally tested positive for hookworms. It’s more difficult when you work with rescue. At any rate, I tested my dogs as soon as I got a positive diagnosis (microscopic since float was wrong) of hookworm. They tested negative. I used DE for 1 month along with 1 week of ground organic pumpkin seeds and tested a full month after using the DE/pumpkin. They were all negative, including the foster with hookworms. I have since tested just recently and again, all dogs are negative (foster was adopted last fall, but is clear). This is 6 months post exposure. Here is a link regarding DE and all types of worms. I’ve had great success, but I test my dogs stools often so I know what’s working. Also, please note, these DO NOT WORK ON HEARTWORM!!! This is a different type of worm that attacks the heart and is not found in the digestive tract! I’ve seen too many posts on the internet that think this will work!

    Not my favorite site, but more mainstream. The link:

    http://www.vetinfo.com/using-diatomaceous-earth-to-worm-pets.html#b

  • Shawna

    aimee — do you know if that number is from factory raised eggs, farm raised or a mixture? When I was able to get farm raised eggs (straight from the farm and from young hens) the shells were really hard as compared to store bought, assuming factory produced eggs.

    Edit — the yolks were also a much deeper and vibrant shade of orange.

  • Shawna

    I don’t think the DE will work. DE HAS to come in contact with the worm body in order to slice through. Because the tapeworm is segmented DE would have to come into contact with every segment and that is very unlikely to happen.

    If you are going to go natural, I think you’d be way better off with raw freshly ground garlic, ginger and the raw freshly ground pumpkin seeds. Might consider cinnamon and a few other spices/herbs as well.

  • Shawna

    I use them as a preventative… If the pups got worms I might consider the chemical stuff as I know the worms can be very problematic…

  • Salty2

    Wow! 6 months or more?

  • Crazy4cats

    Ok, good to know about the OTC dewormer. I’d want to get rid of them quicker too!