What Would the Ideal Dog Food Look Like?

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Have you ever noticed how many different dog food designs there are on the market these days?Choosing the Best Dog Food for Your Pet

High protein. Low carbohydrate. Holistic. All-natural. Organic. Grain-free. Raw dog foods.

The list goes on and on.

After years of searching for the best food for my own dogs, I’ve finally come to the conclusion…

The “perfect” dog food has yet to be made.

Yeah. I know. So-and-so says there’s nothing better for your dog than the such-and-such diet.

And your next door neighbor’s veterinarian recommends you only feed that special dog food — one he just so happens to sell.

Yet once you eliminate all the emotion, the marketing hype and the profits, it all comes down to one critical question…

What Would the Ideal Dog Food Look Like?

When shopping for dog food, it’s a good idea to have in your mind a picture of what the ideal dog food might look like.

A model blueprint to go by.

A benchmark recipe against which all the available dog foods can be compared.

So, to help us get pointed in the right direction, let’s take a look at what would the diet of the world’s first dogs might have looked like.

From Wolf to Woof
in Just a Few Thousand Years

Today, it’s commonly believed that the dog first evolved directly from the wolf about 15,000 years ago somewhere in Central Asia1.

Of course, wolves were — and still are — meat-eating animals. Their teeth, their digestive systems and their behavior clearly confirm this fact.

From wolves, dogs have evolved over thousands of years in the constant shadow of Man — surviving on the food scraps and leftovers of human existence.

For this reason, dogs have shown they are capable of consuming a diverse diet.

Are Dogs Carnivores — or Omnivores?

To answer that question, it’s important to keep in mind all animals are either…

  • Carnivores (animal eaters)
  • Herbivores (plant eaters)
  • Omnivores (consumers of both animals and plants)

By their ancestral pedigree alone, dogs are considered by many to be carnivores.

However, to be fair — and more accurate — dogs must also be recognized for their clearly observable omnivorous ability.

For this reason…

Although dogs have evolved as omnivores — they possess a notable and undeniable carnivorous bias

A Dog’s Ancestral Diet vs. Today’s Kibble

So, what should the nutrient content of a dog’s diet look like?

Well, let’s compare a dog’s natural ancestral diet2 with the nutrient content of a typical dry dog food3

ancestral-diet-compared

It looks like the pet food industry may have taken advantage of the dog’s remarkable willingness to eat just about anything.

Notice the higher carbohydrate content of the kibble compared to the dog’s natural ancestral diet.

And the dramatically lower protein and fat.

These two feeding profiles are nowhere near alike.

So, using a natural ancestral diet as a benchmark, doesn’t it make sense for a dog’s diet to be more balanced? A dietary design that includes…

  • More protein
  • More fat
  • Fewer carbohydrates

A design many commercial dog food formulators choose to ignore.

The Bottom Line

Keeping in mind this picture of the ideal dog food, here are seven characteristics you may wish to look for when shopping for a good dog food…

  1. Higher in meat-based protein
  2. Higher in natural fats and oils
  3. Lower in carbohydrates
  4. Formulated from a named (non-generic) animal source
  5. Free of animal or vegetable by-products
  6. Free of artificial flavoring, coloring or preservatives
  7. Complete in all essential vitamins and minerals

So, why not feed your dog a diet closer to what she might naturally choose for herself. Mother Nature’s plan simply makes good sense.

Footnotes

  1. Lindblad-Toh K, Wade CM, Mikkelsen TS, et al, “Genome sequence, comparative analysis and haplotype structure of the domestic dog”, December 2005, Nature 438 (7069): 803–19
  2. Brown S., Taylor B., “See Spot Live Longer”, 2007 Creekobear Press, Eugene, OR USA, pp 51-61
  3. National Research Council, National Academy of Science, “Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats”, 2006 Edition, National Academies Press, Washington, DC, p 317
  • Pattyvaughn

    Hey Shawna
    Look for an email from me.

  • Shawna

    Hi doggirl and welcome as a poster!!

    The Honestic Kitchen makes a great line of foods. I keep Zeal and Keen on hand and use Preference as a premix as well. If you ever want, I think the Preference can be mixed with cooked meats too..

    Colitis is a nightmare to figure out.. My Pom gets ulcerative colitis from chicken (we finally figured out) and NSAID’s like Metacam or Rimadyl. Glad your pup is on the mend!!!!

  • doggirl

    Hi, everyone,
    This is the first message I have ever done. I used to feed a +4 quality kibble via this site. Twice – 2008 and then February, 2113 – all three of my poodles got sick. The only change both times was a new bag of kibble (same food as always)was used so we’re pretty sure it was a case of the delivery conditions not being optimal. One dog was tested in 2013 & had pancreatitis for the first time in his life. After 3 weeks on ID kibble, his pancreatic tests were normal and only his long time colitis was intermittently showing up (diarrhea, much mucus). That concerned me greatly so I looked for another dog food. Because my vet is totally against raw food and the canned food I changed to after the colitis was still partially active, wasn’t
    solving that problem, I decided to try VERVE from Honest Kitchen. I tried VERVE because my vet wanted my dog to be on a low fat diet to keep the pancreas happy. Well, what a WONDERFUL surprise!!! We slowly changed my dog’s diet to VERVE and for THREE whole weeks his colitis is no longer showing – that hasn’t happened in over 2 years! Also,this dog always had brown stains on his eye teeth since he got his adult teeth in even after professional teeth cleaning. This week I noticed that his eye teeth are white for the first time! My other 2 dogs are now being converted also and are doing well on VERVE. The last 2 days I’ve tried some FORCE instead. I think they like that a little better. So I will probably have to purchase both kinds of food. I am ecstatic over my dog’s improved health.

  • losul

    I’m very happy to hear that all is well in your life Shawna. What I said to you was part of what I needed to tell you for a very long time. My computer is again very unstable, so I hope this posts right

  • Pattyvaughn

    Ah, a new Stargate episode!!!

  • losul

    absolutely. Good way way of putting it.

    Really thick books, lol.

    I like to use a system of checks and balances to help formulate my decisions/opinions, even if it’s not something I wanted to hear.

  • Shawna

    “I can’t imagine a world where Shawna and Aimee are on the same page” — in another dimension possibly? :) ..

    I’m still laughing at aimee’s comment… The girl has smarts and wit!! :)

    Edit — in that other dimension aimee feeds high protein raw versus me liking SD :0)…

  • Shawna

    Oh could you imagine the drama, lots of laughter and maybe a little head in hand that would create!! Hee hee That would be a lot of fun for sure!!

    I’m centrally located…. So when can ya all make it? :) hee hee

  • Shawna

    Yes, yes I think we definitely do!! :)

  • InkedMarie

    Think it’d be fun if we could all get together, oh the conversations!

  • aimee

    We do share some similar personality traits don’t we? : )

  • aimee

    I don’t know Cyndi…. If she made a move I might just take her. I used to compete in Judo way back in the day.. I might still have some moves in me: )

  • aimee

    Thanks losul what a kind thing to say, I think you summed it up nicely.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I agree 100%. I can’t imagine a world where Shawna and Aimee are on the same page, but then I happen to prefer really thick books, so that doesn’t bother me. I like to hear the point of view and information from both and then decide for myself what I believe will work for my situation. Or how either fits in with my own experiences.

  • Shawna

    LOL :) THANKS for having my back!!!

    My life is a little less chaotic now and I’m getting more sleep so I do expect I won’t get that frustrated again!! Grandson is mostly sleeping through the night now — that is a MAJOR help. I don’t function well when I am overly tired all the time.

    I’ll be happy to help however I can if you ever need research (or other) help.. :) And I agree, two brains (or more) are always better than one..

    Lastly, I wanted to say how very much I appreciate and value your comment the other day.. Gave me warm fuzzies and made my day!!

  • losul

    hehe good one Aimee.

    You know when Shawna first came back to DFA, I was really worried she was going to get so frustrated with you that she would leave again. Sometimes I just wanted to blurt out, “just leave her the hell alone, Aimee” Turns out she is one very tough gal to put up with you Aimee., She bends a little but will not break. Now if your were just a little more flexible……lol.

    I’m glad both of you are able to have these debates in stride and good humor, because I think we all learn something from them, I know I do.

    If ever I needed help researching a very important matter, you and Shawna are the two I most would want to ask for help, with the sum of both of you even more valuable than the parts.

  • Shawna

    OH MY GOSH, I am literally laughing so hard my eyes started tearing up!! LOVE that explanation aimee!!!!!!

  • aimee

    You are assuming that the reaction is to lectin.. it could be to any number of things.

    All you can really say is that the dog has an adverse food reaction to “X” You can not ascribe cause to the unknown.

  • aimee

    Shawna.. You and I don’t debate or argue…we just explain to the other why we are “right ” LOL : )

  • aimee

    But why even say senior dogs need up to 50% more protein without clarifying 50% of what? It is meaningless.

    It is like me going to two different stores and at one, item A is 50 % off and at the other it is full price. Is the item cheaper at store A or store B?

    Umm … What makes you think the Dr’s I mentioned put every K/D patient on the same diet???

  • Cyndi

    Good, I’m glad! & you are very welcome! ;) I got a laugh out of Marie’s comment too, lol! I’d be 2nd in line, lol!

  • Shawna

    ” but in the past two decades we have realised that many lectins are (a) toxic, inflammatory, or both; (b) resistant to cooking and digestive enzymes;”

    Because I read data such as the above that say “many”, “toxic”, “inflammatory” and “resistant to cooking”. And because if you pay attention you’ll see a plethora of empirical evidence – Audrey with gluten, Gizmo with chicken (yes, not plant lectins but one of a few animal protein lectins (in comparison to plant lectins)), my girlfriend’s dog with green bean issues, Alexandra’s Dante with potato, I was privately contacted by a DFA poster whose dog has an issue with pea protein/lectins (which she has posted here) and MANY others who have posted on here. If you’ld look beyond research I think you’d find the research may be a bit off as to the prevalance… They’ve been wrong before after all…

  • Shawna

    NO, NO, not offended in the least little bit.. Actually got a good chuckle out of it (and Marie’s follow up comment).. You guys crack me up :) ..

    I do think that aimee focuses more attention on my posts (and a few others) but maybe that’s because I (and the others) post controversial topics more often?

    Aimee and I would either “go at it” or we’d be good friends with differences of opinions.. Although conversations with aimee sometimes frustrate the blank blank out of me, I actually enjoy debating. THANKS Dad (she says sarcasticly) :)

    Thanks for the kind words!!!!! MUCH appreciated :)

  • aimee

    Lectins are not a “waste product and are not a pure carbohydrate.

    Besides I have previously posted research that lectins of common foodstuffs (gluten excluded) used in commercial dog food are nearly completely destroyed by extrusion. It is a non issue for me. I’m satisfied with research.

    I’m not sure why you keep bringing this up. Why do you not accept the research?? If you want to critique the methodology of the studies fine but I think you should tell me why you find the conclusion faulty instead of just saying it is and then post alternative studies that concluded the lectins survived the extrusion process.

    You’ve yet to past any data why is that??

  • Shawna

    “They know that dogs with kidney disease and senior dogs have an increased need for protein.”

    I didn’t say 50%..? And when I was saying 50% I tried (but may have failed a few times?) to say “as much as 50%”. Others however, I’ve noticed, do say “need 50% more protein”. I don’t think that is true in every case as some senior dogs likely digest their meals better than others. Those being fed a species appropriate diet as an example.

    True, not all dogs are “cut from the same cloth” but species appropriate diets are species appropriate no matter what cloth the dog is cut from. By the way, I’m not the only person who has fed their kd dog more species appropriate foods/diets with positive results.

    Lastly, if not all K/D dogs are cut from the same cloth (which I whole heartedly agree with) then why is mainstream treatment the same, in most cases, for all these differing dogs — stick them on a low protein, low quality prescription food as soon as possible?

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    Yes senior dogs have a higher protein requirement that young dogs. But instead of saying they need 50% more protein why don’t you ever tell the entire story??? You always leave out the numbers and only say 50 %. Why is that?? It is relative, meaningless and doesn’t convey any real information.

    Briefly in young dogs, 12 % of calories from casein protein and old dogs 18%. That is research basis of where your 50 % comes from. I assume you are familiar with the research behind that 50% that you always like to bring up??

    I have to wonder if the reason you never post the actual numbers is because those numbers don’t support your agenda.

    To answer your question yes dogs on high quality high protein diets have higher BUN than dogs on a moderate protein diet of lower quality.

    You have worked with 1 dog with KD .. no offense but if any of my dogs ever has K/D I’m going to follow the advice of people like Thornhill, and Chew and Osbourne and Bartges who have worked with thousands and thousands and thousands of KD dogs as not all K/D dogs are cut from the same cloth

  • Cyndi

    That was a great thing for your dad to do for you growing up! Even though you probably didn’t think so then, lol! I don’t think it’s a character flaw at all. & I don’t think you should apologize for it, really! You are obviously very smart and you should be proud of that. Even though I don’t understand half of what you and aimee argue about, I have learned alot from this site and reading posts like yours, & others. & fyi, I don’t think it’s annoying at all! :) I was just joking about what I said before, I hope I didn’t offend you in any way. I just said what I did because it seems aimee argues with everything you say and you two would probably really go at it, given the opportunity in person. ;)

  • InkedMarie

    I’ll buy a front row seat!

  • Shawna

    LOL… I can’t help but argue with aimee (and some others). I blame it on my dad :) . He used to start debates (or arguments) with me just to get me to think — as early as junior high age.

    I get so passionate and wrapped up in the conversation that I obsess over it if I don’t say my peace.. Yep, a definite charachter flaw!! :0)

    SORRY to any of you that find that annoying!!!! :)

  • Cyndi

    LOL!! Yes, & I think you’d end up killing her, lol! After a very long, argumentative debate however!

  • Shawna

    What are you trying to say!!!!!! LOL :-)

  • Shawna

    When plants bite back… :)

    “Lectins are carbohydrate binding proteins present in most plants, especially seeds and tubers like cereals, potatoes, and beans. Until recently their main use was as histology and blood transfusion reagents, but in the past two decades we have realised that many lectins are (a) toxic, inflammatory, or both; (b) resistant to cooking and digestive enzymes; and (c) present in much of our food. It is thus no surprise that they sometimes cause “food poisoning.” But the really disturbing finding came with the discovery in 1989 that some food lectins get past the gut wall and deposit themselves in distant organs…..

    On the other hand, wheat lectin also binds to glomerular capillary walls, mesangial cells, and tubules of human kidney and (in rodents) binds IgA and induces IgA mesangial deposits. This suggests that in humans IgA nephropathy might be caused or aggravated by wheat lectin; indeed a trial of gluten avoidance in children with this disease reported reduced proteinuria and immune complex levels.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/

    Imagine the consequences of plant lectins in dogs and cats…..

  • Cyndi

    I wonder what it would be like if Shawna and Aimee were ever in the same room together. Lol!

  • Shawna

    “Far in excess of needs” — that is a subjective statement aimee.. They know that dogs with kidney disease and senior dogs have an increased need for protein. They also know that protein does not damage the kidneys (even as high as 56%). “These results do not support the hypothesis that high protein feeding had a significant adverse effect on either renal function of morphology in dogs with 75% nephrectomy.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3702209

    Yes, HIGH protein diets create more BUN than lower amounts of the same quality protein. But, do they create more than moderate amounts of low quality proteins?

    Additionally, the environment as well as contaminated water has as much of if not a greater affect on the toxicity of the blood as does diet. If you control the environmental factors you can feed a “species appropriate” diet to even a dog with kidney disease as evidenced by Audrey.

  • aimee

    I’m sure someone will be sure to post some but honestly losul there are plusses and negatives to every food ingredient. Pick your poison. Eating is never without risk.

    Phytate is considered to be beneficial as an anti oxident and it is considered to be an anti cancer nutrient as well. I’ve read it can be destroyed in extrusion but read in other places it is not. Maybe that depends on the time/temp/pressure.

    Other than the Zn problem in the 80′s I’m not aware of any horrific deleterious effects of phytate as it is now in commercial diets.

  • aimee

    Not necessarily..and don’t forget that meat proteins aren’t “complete” either, so there are always extras.

    I don’t know why people focus on this point though. It seems that on the one hand people fret over “extras” from plant proteins but then on the other hand advocate for protein levels in the diet that far exceed needs, so lots and lots and lots of extra’s.: )

    When I commented about the ancestral diet I was just referring to dogs in general.

    I don’t think there is a health advantage or disadvantage to use carbs for energy instead of protein in a healthy dog. Using protein for energy isn’t as energy efficient as using carbs, so that can be used to an advantage during weight loss. But I feel that advantage may be lost if you don’t use a low fat diet as fat is very efficiently used.

    There is a cost advantage to using carb for energy instead of protein, both in terms of environment and dollars.

    I can’t think of any “waste” products from carbs. But it is late… if I’m missing something let me know

  • losul

    Aimee, assuming most dog food manufacturers have successfully countered the mineral binding effects of phytates with increased amounts of minerals, don’t phytates also have other deleterious effects?

  • losul

    Yes, plant proteins rarely from a single source, because they are incomplete by themselves. Seems that more plant protein would be required to meet the “complete” profile which would then neccessarily include a lot of excess unneeded amino acids.

    I don’t think anyone would suggest any strict “ancestral diet” for an already kidney damaged dog, and I don’t think that many here subscribe to a strict ancestral diet anyway, but in a healthy dog, when you substitute excessive carbs for high quality proteins as an energy source what is the advantage? so far I haven’t found them. Don’t the carbs also generate alot of waste products?

    I’m glad you agree that the protein sources in an “ancestral diet” are high quality.

  • aimee

    I’m not following you..There were different effects on GFR but other than that???

    In people on mineral poor diets phytates are a concern. However in commercial dog foods there is plenty of phosphorus. AAFCO min is nearly twice NRC recommendations and most commercial fooods are way over AAFCO min making it a non issue.

    Back in 80′s??? though there was Zn def in dogs tied into the phytate levels in high cereal based “generic” foods. Can’t say this is seen anymore though.

  • aimee

    If the two different quality proteins are fed at the same level in the diet and as sole protein sources than yes.

    Plant proteins are rarely fed as a single protein source which complicates the whole matter. In stead of focusing on the sources I ‘d look at the AA pool as a whole.

    Overall protein level in the diet plays a significant role.

    Where you’ll find the a lot of protein “waste products” is when feeding an “ancestral” diet. The protein sources are high quality but far in excess of needs so much of the protein is broken down as an energy source.

  • Shawna

    It is evident however that dogs utilize plant protein differently than humans do based on the data (unless they are correct in that the human studies were flawed).

    In kd plant protein based phosphorus binding may be a good thing, but wouldn’t that be counter-indicated in a healthy persons diet then? Phosphorus is an essential mineral and you would WANT it to be bioavailable. Hmmmmm

    Lastly, I thought you disagreed with the idea that phytates are detrimental in an extruded diet?

  • aimee

    The little that I read wasn’t embracing GFR as the reason to use plant based proteins. The reasoning was in part due to phos. and possibly plant phytoestrogens.

    The reason I said it is a paradigm shift for you is because you have been very anti plant protein in renal patients. Yet in people, plant protein is being shown to be very beneficial in part because the phosphorous isn’t bioavailable allowing for more protein to be fed, especially in high demand nutritional states like pregnancy.

  • losul

    O.K., Aimee. I think I can agree with that much, or at least when the amount of the waste products do exceed the capacity of the kidneys.

    Can we agree that the waste products generated from low quality proteins are greater than the waste products generated from high quality proteins, whether they be from plant or animal sources? And also being that most all plant sources of amino acids are incomplete, aren’t more of these incomplete amino acids overall apt to be unusable and excess, and therefore generate more waste products?

  • Shawna

    Please see my accidental post to losul above.

  • Shawna

    LOL — please read my most recent post on soy and kd in dogs :)

  • Shawna

    I would agree with that. But “excess” is a subjective word. Also, the health of the gut microbes has an impact on the “toxicity” of the blood as well. When utilizing nitrogen trapping a higher, high quality protein diet can be fed.
    To diet you also have to factor in the amount of toxins introduced from the environment as well as the water source. I believe part of my success with Audrey has to do with eliminating as many of the environmental pollutants or “toxins” that are filtered by the kidneys.

  • Shawna

    This study (on dogs) showed NO benefit from soy protein over animal proteins (casein and pork liver) on GFR.

    “The results of the present study are not in agreement with studies in humans that demonstrated a different effect of vegetable and animal proteins on acute renal hemodynamic measurements. Our study indicates that in both normal dogs and those with reduced renal mass, an acute increase in GFR occurred, regardless of protein source.”

    They also cast doubts on the soy studies in humans ” Some claims of different hemodynamic effects from vegetable and animal proteins reported in humans could be related to failure to control the quantity of protein ingested. Indeed, some studies of humans have failed to detect a difference in hemodynamic effects between animal and vegetable proteins (Mansey et al. 1987).” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/745.full

    Interestingly however, with soy, they discovered that the amount of processing did not have an impact on soy protein absorption. Kinda blows the theory on phytates (from soy at least). However, the most processed form was soy protein isolate and I have to wonder if the over processed isolate was just as problematic as the anti-nutrients. I recently read a research paper suggesting isolated amino acids are not utilized in the same manner as whole, undenatured proteins. That’s one problem with research for me —– just leads to more and more questions.

  • aimee

    In people they aren’t switching to plant protein to decrease the cost of the food. It is being done to increase their health!

    Apparently there are components of plants that are beneficial to compromised kidneys.

    I found in high risk CRF pregnancy it is thought better outcomes for mother and child can be achieved with plant based protein diets.

    I think this is cool stuff and who knows if it will apply to dogs but it sure is interesting.

    But I do realize it is likely too much of a paradigm shift for you to ever embrace.

  • aimee

    Yes the kidneys have a function/job. I don’t know I guess I might word it as. “When unusable or excess AA are fed to patients with kidney failure, the waste products generated from the breakdown of those AA build up in the body contributing to toxicity.”

  • losul

    Aimee, I can pretty much understand the whole technical passive process concept, and possibly and technically “work” doesn’t seem the best word to use. Does “burden” suit you any better? Does not the kidneys perform a “job” whether passively or not?

  • aimee

    losul… it is a passive process. I realize in lay writings the word “work” is commonly used. That is unfortunate. Here is a simplified reference: https://www.inkling.com/read/physiology-linda-s-costanzo-4th/chapter-6/reabsorption-and-secretion

    Urea—Example of Passive Reabsorption: Urea is freely filtered across the glomerular capillaries

  • Shawna

    Yes, of course a VERY well planned plant protein diet could supply the appropriate amount of amino acids for increased bioavailability. And companies like Science Diet and Purina will figure it out so they can make the cheapest food possible.

    I would NEVER feed Audrey soy. And I don’t trust any research that suggests soy, in the amounts westerners consume, is a healthful food.

  • aimee

    I don’t disagree with those statements. In renal failure the goal is to match AA profile supplied in the diet with AA needs. Couldn’t this be done with AA sourced form plants? It would take careful balancing but would it not be possible?

    Apparently it is being done in humans. In fact in one paper the term that was used was “rescue” diet. The patients did better when animal based proteins were replaced with plant based.

    Soy plays a prominent role in these diets. The benefit in part due to phos being in a bound form in plants… our friend phytate. So this anti nutrient is being used as to benefit the CRF patient.

    We should move this conversation if you want to discuss further. It is an area I only recently started to explore and find the information fascinating!

    This is from an older paper: “Nutritional intervention studies have shown that consumption of soy-based protein and flaxseed reduces proteinuria and attenuates renal functional or structural damage in animals and humans with various forms of chronic renal disease….. Vegetable protein has been shown to have a beneficial effect on renal disease in animals and humans.”Ranich et al 2001.

    This is from a more recent but short term study:”These results, if confirmed in longer studies, provide rationale for recommending a predominance of grain-based vegetarian sources of protein
    to patients with CKD.” Moe et al 2011

    I don’t know that similar research has yet been done in dogs or cars but it is very intriguing.

  • losul

    Sincerely I thank you Shawna, means alot to me. And thank you for your dedication, caring. honorability and being a huge part of making this site such as it is.

  • Shawna

    Thanks Losul, I absolutely agree..

    Also wanted to say thanks for your comments on preparing grains.. We all want to make a positive difference to others don’t we!! And I LOVE it when that difference is with people like you…..you’ll do some research yourself…understand the topic better…and share what you’ve learned with others!!!!

  • losul

    Good job, Shawna!

    That’s exactly the kind of reliable information I was looking for just today to back up our mutual thoughts. Aimee might not think so for whatever reason, But I would say that information comes from a very good source-Washington State U – College of Veterinary Medicine.

    I come across alot of actual research papers that appear promising for whatever I am looking for (per the abstracts) but without being able to read most of the full texts, and without paying an arm and a leg, it becomes almost meaningless.

    thnx.

  • Shawna

    I can’t believe we are revisiting this subject yet again..

    “The higher the quality of the protein in the diet, the less wastes created for the kidneys to eliminate. Low quality protein requires the kidneys remove more wastes. which makes them work harder. Egg and meat contain higher quality protein; cereal grain protein is of lower quality which leads to more wastes for the kidneys to eliminate.” http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/ckd.aspx

    “More wastes for the kidneys to eliminate” and more wastes to cause increased uremic symptoms. This is true for dogs and this is true for humans — bioavailability is key.

  • losul

    I didn’t read his book, but I gather from googling that he is referring to periodontal disease?

    Strange coinage to use if you ask me.

  • LawofRaw

    Ahh yes, Chapter 7 starting on page 135. It’s been a while since I read it, but I approve of his coined phrase, Foul-mouth AIDS.

  • Pattyvaughn

    OK. I can see interpretting her remarks to mean any food versus any other food, but I didn’t even put it in the context of interpretting labels and GAs.

  • aimee

    So you saw some stuff on it too huh? I have an appointment to go to. I’ll comment later

  • aimee

    I didn’t say Lonsdale was “foul mouthed”… As I recall that was the name of a chapter in his book and I found his coinage of the term offensive.

    I’m in general none reactive… I participated in a research study on aggression. After I was screened they called me back and offered me 500 dollars if they could interview and test me over a two day period and I had to agree to giving them blood samples. So I did it! One of the tasks I found very frustrating. I was to identify people’s emotions by facial expression I had a hard time doing this… maybe I don’t react much because i don’t identify emotion well ???

  • LawofRaw

    Yes so did I. There is a recent publication that was referred to in a Sydney news source (I haven’t read the publication, just the news source) that states findings which reveal that that may be the case, about the switch from meat to vegetable based protein. I would actually agree to that. That same study or was it another recent study? That suggest humans may live longer on a vegan diet over that of a meat based one. You know what…. I don’t find that surprising at all. That said, we are not the same as canids. Mother Nature is a factual testament to that.

    Re kidney failure, I’m no expert nor am I qualified to speak on such or make comprehensive recommendations (However I’ve made some from a layman perspective), nor do I know anyone that has a dog with it, as all my friends and acquaintances feed their dogs a raw meaty diet (except my neighbour who feeds poor commercial foods) and our dogs just never seem to have any kind of ailments at all. However, going by other anecdotal accounts such as that described on dogaware dot com and of what Shawna tells us, such dogs with kidney failure seem to do OK on a fresh, meaty diet.

  • aimee

    I think the OP intention was to ask can we simply look at a label and know which food is “better” based on judging meat content and macronutrient profile.

    Can I look at a label of a meat based diet and know that that particular diet will always be better/ confer better health than a vegetable based diet? I can not.

    However I can answer the question “Does beef has a more complete essential AA profile than corn” Yes it does.

  • aimee

    Your post was: “There actually IS evidence that dogs do better on higher protein diets. There is also evidence that dogs with kidney disease do better on animal based proteins than on vegetable based proteins.”

    I worded my post in a way I thought was clear. I purposefully didn’t address the kidney disease comment though off hand I can’t think of anything published that concluded animal based proteins are preferable to vegetable proteins in kidney failure.

    Interestingly enough late one night I came across recent publications in the human field whereby in certain situations of CRF in humans the diet is being changed from animal based protein to vegetable based with great success.

  • LawofRaw

    No that’s not the reason I believe you keep your cool. Many emotional people speak from the heart. Progressives are more that way. I’ll leave it to your imagination what I may further mean on that and your coolness and your accompanying history of purpose rhetoric I’ve read on DFA.

    Lonsdale is anything but foul mouthed, and everything but wise. Derived from many years of witnessed accounts from his veterinary clinical practice as did Billinghurst, Becker, Symes, and many others. Those of which just happened not to allow big corporate business to influence them for the sake of money and nothing else. :)

  • aimee

    Well LawofRaw… Like anyone I don’t like to see myself be misquoted or be made a participant in a ‘straw man’ fallacy.

  • aimee

    I didn’t mean for the comment to be condescending. I just didn’t know if you looked!.

    Observation and anecdotal information is important, it is the “first step” in the process of science. However, testimonials and even expert opinion are considered the weakest “evidence” in Evidence Based Medicine. I don’t make the “rules”, only report them.

    Similarly, eyewitness testimony is faulty as well and unfortunately many innocent people have paid the ultimate price.

    Over the years I’ve read parts of Volhard, Pitcairn, Becker( her entire book), Lonsdale, and Billinghurst, along with NRC, Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Buffington’s book and Fascetti’s book in addition to numerous peer reviewed papers and proceedings.

    I feel I’m fairly well rounded in my education.

    I found Lonsdale’s “Foul Mouth AID’s” offensive.

    How cool is that that Fascetti is on the Foods for Health Institute! It is so refreshing to see so many disciplines come together for human health!

    I found her research review very through and objective. What did you think of it after reading it?

    You commented that I always keep “my cool”…. I’m able to do that because I don’t have an agenda, other than disseminating objective science based information.

  • LawofRaw

    One other thing….This website kind of serves as a long term progress study. I mean, since there are many regulars here, most of which are converted or pro-raw feeders (a far cry from the numbers when I first started to post here, so your subtle messaging is really failing, as is such, across the US and the rest of the world in general, thanks to the hard work of good people spreading the word of “evolutionary” and “ancestral” species appropriate canine diets), have dogs that it will be interesting to see how long they continue to discuss their dogs’ health. :)

  • LawofRaw

    Mmmmm my dogs are getting one of the best (fact) rotational protein sources and foods in general tonight my time.

    Picked up my pre-ordered grass fed toxin free goat carcass and had my source cut it pieces for me, this morning, my time.. Mmmm aren’t my dogs so lucky that they will be getting a world apart of superiority and evolutionary based canine super food to that of inferior long term disease causing Hills and Nestle processed pet dubbed food.

    Aren’t my dogs so lucky!!!

  • LawofRaw

    I’ll talk about Dr. Andrea J. Fascetti at the end of this post, but first……..If I look around a bit, I’ll “find many well educated people come to the same conclusion”.

    Thanks. I appreciate the condescension. Ahh yes you’re right. There are many such educated people. However, education and ulterior motives, are two very different things.

    If you look around “a bit” you’ll also find many well educated people on the side of common sense, and witnesses of the mother of all studies and application, Mother Nature’s million years of canid evolution!! These same well educated people that know and realise, just like many of us not so educated engineers, architects, other scientists, dentists, physicians, lawyers, librarians, bank tellers, construction workers, trades-persons, and from so many other walks of life, if such officially endorsed, licenced, and publicised same, revealing officially that dogs’ and cats’ diets of raw foods based on their evolutionary diets actually did improve all facets of their health and prolonged their lives (as it factually would and does), over that of commercial processed pet foods, then the pet food industry woukld stand to suffer great losses in business, and even be opened up to law suits.

    And so, none of the same financiers (mostly the pet food conglomerates, closely aligned university groups, and your employer) who invest and provide the funds, partially or completely, for those studies and feeding trials that result in favouring processed pet foods over others, will never fund raw feeding studies and trials that would unequivocally reveal Mother Nature’s evolutionary and ancestral canine and feline diet to be superior, life prolonging and dramatic overall health increasing. Just won’t happen. Such would stand to lose billions….not millions, but billions in dollars.

    Now let’s talk about anecdotal evidence supporting raw fed in spades being far superior than processed pet foods. Such millions upon millions of anecdotal accounts and testimonies simply are refused official scientific recognition. Again, the biased financiers stand to lose billions! The irony of this ignorance, is that when it comes to eyewitness evidence in a court of law, that’s sufficient to condemn a defendant to sentencing. Yet such anecdotal and witness accounts regarding raw and non commercial pet foods, is not enough to be recognised by the very same western pet food comglomerate and vet school endorsed scientific community.

    Before actual evidence was finally linked that smoking did indeed cause lung cancer, back in the 90′s, most people still new that smoking was a cause of such cancer, Rhetoric, and little data or lot’s of data, or no data, made no difference. People’s common sense, told them that smoking kills, given the mass anecdotal accounts of smoking associated ill-health, and deterioration.

    You say you couldn’t read Lonsdale’s discourses because you found it offensive, yet there is nothing offensive about them, No cussing, no profanity, just plain and simple common sense, data, and factual “rhetoric”. And yet, you say and claim that there is absolutely no such evidence showing an appropriate species based diet exists. If you don’t read literature that you may find revealing to counteract what you and your employer want to broadcast/advertise/divulge, then it is a great shame.

    Dr. Andrea J. Fascetti works for one of those very university groups closely affiliated with commercial pet food industry, She is involved with a Business Development Program of the Foods For Health Institute of Davis University Campus in California. Her group and department work with the pet food industry to market their ideas and concoctions called pet food. This is actually public knowledge!

  • aimee

    If you look around a bit you’ll find many well educated people come to the same conclusion. Here’s one:

    “However, there have been no studies to date to support that this feeding approach has any long-term health benefits compared to feeding other types of pet food.”

    Andrea J. Fascetti, VMD, PhD, DACVIM (Small Animal Internal Medicine), DACVN Raw Food Diets A Research Review 2011

    I started reading Lonsdale, I found a lot of rhetoric, little data and his writing style was offensive.

    I listened to the entire 1 1/2 hour recording.

  • Shawna

    Yeah, the 60ish years was a bit off – quite a bit.. Yesterday I read an article by veterinary nutritionist Dr. Meg Smart and she said “Highly processed and dissected and reconstituted (convenience) foods have only been part of our diet and that of our pets for a little over 200 years. Less than one percent of the time, that dogs have been associated with man.”

    Although having nothing to do with the length of time kibble has been available :) , I found the following data she wrote interesting as well (especially when considering she taught nutrition for 30 some years).

    “History
    Although physically diverse, the dog is genetically, anatomically, and metabolically similar to the wolf. [i] What has changed dramatically over the last one hundred years is their environment, diet and our relationship with them. The majority of dogs are no longer working and allowed to roam freely in the rural country side supplementing their ” human food” diets with small prey, manure, livestock feed, carrion and any other foods that appeals to them.“A complete and balanced diet” meant nothing to them or their guardians. Death was by accidents or an infectious disease. Now dogs are confined, over vaccinated, their activities are controlled by us, their environment polluted and sanitized, and their food and treats made primarily from highly processed waste products from the human food chain.” http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2012/07/practical-advise-on-feeding-your-dog.html#more

  • Shawna

    They are breaking ground with that new cat rabies vaccine as it is different from other rabies vaccines in that it is non-adjuvanted. They are currently the only company to make the product so the proof is solely up to them not multiple manufacturers. And it was in their best interest to attempt to prove three year DOI as some people may still chose to vaccinate their cats every three years instead of yearly. There was definitley financial insentive to establish three year DOI in my opinion.

    Dr. Schultz was instrumental in getting law changed from one to three years. If they can demonstrate that the vaccine lasts AT LEAST seven years it will be easier to convince the powers to be to make changes. Some may while some may not but none will without the testing. At the very least some states may allow for titer testing for up to seven years post vaccination. As it stands now, vets are allowed to titer versus getting the shots. Why not allow that for dogs too. I personally would pay the extra monies for the titer over vaccinating.

    Yes the OP did say that “There is simply no evidence…” but that is not the post you replied to. You replied to her post that said “I’m searching and searching for studies to support this and can’t seem to find any!” That post was a direct reply to my post about animal protein versus vegetable protein. Hence my assumption that that was the material you were referencing. Patty has a very valid point too.

  • Pattyvaughn

    What do you think was the OPs intention in mentioning those specific foods and yet using the phrase “let’s say” to preface it? My interpretation was that she was saying “meat versus vegetarian” If she was saying a food that everyone here recommends versus one they don’t, she shouldn’t have picked BB, IMO.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Except if I am recalling correctly it was James Spratt in the mid 1800′s that first created a kibble.

  • LawofRaw

    Very true Shawna. In fact I recall many instances like that especially a couple of years ago.

    I don’t want to gang up on anyone, but I’m just getting suspicious about what I believe is really going on with certain posters.

    Having said that, I actually do respect aimee’s intelligence. I think she is highly intelligent, just that I believe in the poster’s (calling him or herself Americana) statement, that something has always felt, “fishy fishy” about certain posters’ agendas.

  • LawofRaw

    I just can’t believe an unbiased debater, would make such a conclusion, given that there actually is evidence, when it comes to the health of both dogs and cats. You said in the past that you just couldn’t finish reading any of Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s literature and evidence as you couldn’t cope with the tone for a lack of a better description, of his discourse.

    You also happened to be listening to a Lonsdale recording on the way to a conference or something and couldn’t finish listening to the whole recording. I know what I’m thought about that and still think about that!

  • LawofRaw

    Actually aimee has a long history of doing what you describe. I have to say though in her defence, that she at least always keeps her cool, and is always in control of her emotions. Such is not my strength as I really like to tell it as I see it.

    That’s usually the case with radicals or leftists like me, and the more self controlled, less passion orientated but more materialistic demeanors are a common trait of right wingers or conservatives.

    Although I prefer to think of genuine radicals or leftists as righteous in thought process, intentions and actions.

    Anyway, sorry for the digression. I don’t know how long you’ve been a DFA reader, but there are so many examples of what you describe about aimee such as one that comes to mind being, when I’ve raised the Pottenger cat study of the 1940′s which revealed by a 10 year inadvertent or accidental study with outcomes showing cats fed a diet of raw scraps improved in every facet of health including extended life longevity. aimee’s response was something along the lines of …….but when a study revealed that the cats lost or decreased in so and so when fed only raw rabbit carcasses etc. So there’s always just some negative counter connotation to what ever discourse one has in support of a raw or species appropriate diet. Yet in any argument, no raw advocate here ever suggests that feeding just one meat based protein is recommended. I mean, that’s just one example of of so many!!!!

  • LawofRaw

    It always seems like no no no no this or no I never do that. I said that this and never said that. There always appears to be some excuse.

  • aimee

    Oh no no no…. I’d never say I “trust” a company that does feeding trials over a company that doesn’t. There are companies that have done feeding trials whose food will never cross my dogs lips : )

    I’m sure I’ve posted things like Veterinary nutritionists recommend X or Y. Or I may have provided a list of foods that meets particular criteria.

    And I have posted about my own personal experiences with certain diets. (I kinda thought that was the purpose of this site.)

    My intention though is solely to convey information. I have not to the best that I can recall ever said “I think you should feed your dog brand X or you shouldn’t feed your dog brand Y.”

  • aimee

    That is the study I’m describing. Merial spent a lot of money, so I heard, to establish DOI yet the vaccine is only licensed for 1 year.

    Here is a link to the publication: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23059358

    When the Rabies challenge fund demonstrates DOI of 5 or 7 year what will be done with that information?

    Yes I read the conversation… the OP said “There is simply no evidence that dogs are healthier on a diet of let’s
    say, Blue Buffalo dog food over Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula dog food”

    I see that as being very very different from ” suggesting that there is no data demonstrating meat protein is superior to vegetable protein.”

  • Americana

    Hi Shawna – That’s exactly what I feel. It always feels like that subtle sense that Aimee does make biased subtle recommendations and always seems to jump in on a liken debate on the team of say kibble against fresh or like you wrote trust a company that does feeding trials over one that doesnt ya da ya da.

  • Shawna

    I think, like Americana said, you do make recommendations however as stated you are very subtle about it. Like — you would always chose a blank product over a blank product. And that choice points to big name brand conglomerate kibble makers. Or — you would trust a company that does feeding trials over one that doesn’t. Those are recommendations wouldn’t you agree?

  • Shawna

    There is a study, JUST like the one you are describing, for cats using a product that doesn’t use adjuvants. Dr. Schultz does talk about this in the interview he does with Dr. Becker (I can’t remember which of the four it is in though). The product is licensed for one year only cause the three year studies didn’t produce enough dead cats.

    The original poster is suggesting that there is no data demonstrating meat protein is superior to vegetable protein. I don’t see how beef versus corn gluten meal isn’t relevant as that is what initiated the comments on research. Did you not read the entire conversation?

    I agree with Schultz as well — that two rabies vaccines are required due to the fact that they are made from a killed virus. The Rabies Challenge Fund site stated at one point that all states recognize the 3 year vaccine protocol but some counties and municipalities may require more frequent. He also states that vets that vaccinate more than needed need educated.

  • aimee

    Americana,

    I have “no horse in this race” I do strive to evaluate objectively without preconceived bias.

    But I am human so I’m sure I fall short and I undoubtedly have been shaped by my experiences. For example when I was a teen I saw a German Shepherd choke to death on a bone. It was a traumatic experience to witness. Because of it I’ll never give my dogs bones to chew.

    Not sure what you mean by “singing the man made profit machine song” If you have followed my posts than you know I have said my personal preference is to balanced over unbalanced and feed fresh over processed. My own dogs eat a combination of home prepared and commercial.

    When discussing raw I acknowledge the bacterial risk, it is real, I do not think it should be just dismissed, but I’ve also said I haven’t seen people who feed raw needing to run to the ER for food borne illness : ). So I don’t “wig” out about it. However I do think is it wise to err on the side of caution when dealing with the young/ the elderly or those with immune compromise. That goes for both animals and people.

    If you read my posts than you know I don’t make recommendations as to what to feed. I don’t say this food is terrible or that food is perfect.

    There are risks and benefits no matter what feeding option you choose.. eating is always a risky endeavor!

  • Americana

    Howdy Aimee – I’m a long time reader, never a commenter but i just gotta ask – How come you always seem to argue against anything that nature wants? Like that dogs ancestral diet has not proof of better health bebefits. Why do you sing the man made profit machine song all the time? You don’t do it directly i notice you do it subtlely and always seem to argue for cooked against raw and man made that against natural that? You alsway say you are a data girl basing stating facts on studies but you never seem to give an even an inch to the raw or nature argument. A true unbiased folk would sometimes argue for both points of view. Fishy fishy if ya’ll ask me.

  • aimee

    Not sure what “is beef better to corn gluten” has to do with this discussion.

    I was addressing the OP question: Is there information showing a macronutrient profile of 56/25-30/14 is superior to other profiles?

    In regards to the vaccine issue, my understanding was the study did follow necessary protocol. The vaccine though, wasn’t licensed for three years because the challenge virus supplied by USDA didn’t cause rabies in enough of the controls.

    The company repeated the study, at a great cost to them and again..not enough of the controls became ill. My understanding is to license they have to use the rabies strain provided by USDA.

    I don’t see why a company would be willing to invest in a seven year challenge study knowing that another company got “burned” twice in a 3 year study.

    In the 1988 rabies survey there were 18 cases of rabies in dogs that had been vaccinated. 4 only had 1 vaccine ( I agree with Schultz young animal should be vaccinated twice several weeks apart to confer good immunity) and the other 14 were beyond the recommended vaccine interval. Unfortunately how far out they were I don’t know. Maybe they wouldn’t have responded anyway. But I think this is a political hotbed. Heck I think there are still areas that don’t recognize 3 year vaccines.

  • Shawna

    As usual we’ll have to agree to disagree aimee.

    For the record, I don’t need a study to tell me that beef is better for my dog than corn gluten meal. My common sense serves that purpose.

    Edit: I am aware of a French study and Dr. Schultz mentioned in a video (I think it was) that he has done studies but neither met official approval. Again, if the financiers aren’t going to back the studies that would be approved than they won’t get done.