What Would the Ideal Dog Food Look Like?

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Have you ever noticed how many different dog food designs there are on the market these days?Choosing the Best Dog Food for Your Pet

High protein. Low carbohydrate. Holistic. All-natural. Organic. Grain-free. Raw dog foods.

The list goes on and on.

After years of searching for the best food for my own dogs, I’ve finally come to the conclusion…

The “perfect” dog food has yet to be made.

Yeah. I know. So-and-so says there’s nothing better for your dog than the such-and-such diet.

And your next door neighbor’s veterinarian recommends you only feed that special dog food — one he just so happens to sell.

Yet once you eliminate all the emotion, the marketing hype and the profits, it all comes down to one critical question…

What Would the Ideal Dog Food Look Like?

When shopping for dog food, it’s a good idea to have in your mind a picture of what the ideal dog food might look like.

A model blueprint to go by.

A benchmark recipe against which all the available dog foods can be compared.

So, to help us get pointed in the right direction, let’s take a look at what would the diet of the world’s first dogs might have looked like.

From Wolf to Woof
in Just a Few Thousand Years

Today, it’s commonly believed that the dog first evolved directly from the wolf about 15,000 years ago somewhere in Central Asia1.

Of course, wolves were — and still are — meat-eating animals. Their teeth, their digestive systems and their behavior clearly confirm this fact.

From wolves, dogs have evolved over thousands of years in the constant shadow of Man — surviving on the food scraps and leftovers of human existence.

For this reason, dogs have shown they are capable of consuming a diverse diet.

Are Dogs Carnivores — or Omnivores?

To answer that question, it’s important to keep in mind all animals are either…

  • Carnivores (animal eaters)
  • Herbivores (plant eaters)
  • Omnivores (consumers of both animals and plants)

By their ancestral pedigree alone, dogs are considered by many to be carnivores.

However, to be fair — and more accurate — dogs must also be recognized for their clearly observable omnivorous ability.

For this reason…

Although dogs have evolved as omnivores — they possess a notable and undeniable carnivorous bias

A Dog’s Ancestral Diet vs. Today’s Kibble

So, what should the nutrient content of a dog’s diet look like?

Well, let’s compare a dog’s natural ancestral diet2 with the nutrient content of a typical dry dog food3

ancestral-diet-compared

It looks like the pet food industry may have taken advantage of the dog’s remarkable willingness to eat just about anything.

Notice the higher carbohydrate content of the kibble compared to the dog’s natural ancestral diet.

And the dramatically lower protein and fat.

These two feeding profiles are nowhere near alike.

So, using a natural ancestral diet as a benchmark, doesn’t it make sense for a dog’s diet to be more balanced? A dietary design that includes…

  • More protein
  • More fat
  • Fewer carbohydrates

A design many commercial dog food formulators choose to ignore.

The Bottom Line

Keeping in mind this picture of the ideal dog food, here are seven characteristics you may wish to look for when shopping for a good dog food…

  1. Higher in quality meat-based protein
  2. Higher in natural fats and oils
  3. Lower in carbohydrates
  4. Formulated from a named (non-generic) animal source
  5. Free of animal or vegetable by-products
  6. Free of artificial flavoring, coloring or preservatives
  7. Complete in all essential vitamins and minerals

So, why not feed your dog a diet closer to what she might naturally choose for herself. Mother Nature’s plan simply makes good sense.

Footnotes

  1. Lindblad-Toh K, Wade CM, Mikkelsen TS, et al, “Genome sequence, comparative analysis and haplotype structure of the domestic dog”, December 2005, Nature 438 (7069): 803–19
  2. Brown S., Taylor B., “See Spot Live Longer”, 2007 Creekobear Press, Eugene, OR USA, pp 51-61
  3. National Research Council, National Academy of Science, “Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats”, 2006 Edition, National Academies Press, Washington, DC, p 317
  • Dr paul

    My name is David smith , my family and i live in UK .It was after seven years i got to discover that my wife was unfaithful to me.I didn’t know what was going on at first but as she got deep in the affair with her new lover, i felt that our marriage was on the rocks.I notice that she no longer light up when i touch her or kiss her in her neck and her chest cos she really liked it when i did that, she also usually get naked in front of me but when she started seeing that guy she stopped it.I remember asking her if i have done anything that makes her feel irritated when i am around her then she gives silly excuses that she has been feeling stressed up and that she need space for a while.I know when you are been asked for space its usually because there is something fishy is going on.I hired a private investigator to help find out what was going on.And in a week time he brought me prove that my wife that i have lived with for seven straight year is cheating on me with her high school lover.I had picture of her walking out a of a restaurant with him and many other photo of them kissing in public like she will never be caught by someone that knows she is my wife.I asked myself, even when we had a daughter together she could this to me.That same night i showed her the pictures that i got from my private investigator.She didn’t look at it before saying, that she is seeing someone and she know that i just found out about it.Then she said that she is in love with him.At that moment, i didn’t know if to kill myself or to kill her but the button line is that if i was going to kill anyone it was going to be me cos i was so much in love with her to even think of thinking to hurt her.As time when on she asked for a divorce and got it and even got custody of our daughter and i was all alone by myself.For a year i tried all i could to get her back with the help of my seven year old daughter.Even at that all effect was in vain, i used the help of her friend but turned out all bad.I know most people don’t believe in spell casting but believe me this was my last option and the result i most say was impressive.And i know it difficult to believe but A SPELL CASTER Dr omo really made my life much better cos he gave me my family back.He didn’t ask me to pay for what he did for me all i was to do, was to provide the materials for the spell and believe that he had the power to help me.Like he said, he was going to do something that will make her reset her love and affection for me just as it has always been.My wife told me she woke up and realized that she should have never left me that i am all she needs.To make thing clear, her life with her high school lover was great before Dr omo castled the spell they had no disagreement on anything.The guy said it himself that why she broke up with him is unexplainable.Only Dr omo can do such a thing contact him to solve your problem with his email:[email protected] You can contact him for any help, he is very powerful and can solve any kind of problem below.
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  • Wendy/NICO

    No one has to guess you said it twice !!! Once at the begging and at the end a

  • Patrick Hoy

    I think the ‘perfect’ dog food has been around for a very, very long time, it’s called a rabbit. Perfect portion size, just the right balance of meat, bone and organs. Dogs and wolves have been eating them for thousands of years. And they constantly reproduce themselves, like, you guessed it, rabbits!

  • theBCnut

    This is a food intolerance issue. Look at the ingredient lists on the foods she does well on vs the ones she does not do well on and you can figure out what ingredients to avoid.

  • searchchs63

    Thanks Mike. Great to know you use the modified Atwater numbers. I thought your audience should know they are different for pets and humans.

    Your fat-to-protein ratio is based on a “group” of foods in a brand and uses the “percent of food” percentages. That does not give me the information I care about, caloriesand how many are from protein and how many are from fat. I do not know exactly how you arrive at your “calorie weighted basis” percents (they are slightly different from mine), but their ratio is helpful.

    To be exact, with optimum fat and protein (as a percent of total calories) being 44% and 49%, that is a ratio of 44:49 or .9 (90%). I am finding that most kibbles do not come close to this (they are 1.0 and up, heavy on the fat). A short cut is to look for guaranteed analysis protein percents (of the food) that are approximately 2.5 times the fat percent (the more exact number is 2.42).

    Last but not least, thank you for this website. It has been an invaluable resource and asset. I imagine you have created millions of more educated pet food buyers which is good for the entire pet owning community. Thanks again.

    One thing I would dearly like to see is the manufacturer of record for a food. Getting this information is like pulling hen’s teeth. With your experience and expertise, maybe you could figure out a way to get this info – or at least publish it for those companies who divulge the info.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    You make a valid point.

    Please note every dog food reviewed on this website displays modified Atwater figures (found in the table at the bottom of each “dashboard”).

    In addition, we provide a fat-to-protein (FPR) ratio in “The Bottom Line” section of every review.

    We do take much of this data into consideration in the star ratings we assign each product line..

  • searchchs63

    After 15 years of researching dog food, here’s something I just figured out that is troubling. People generally know to look at the guaranteed analysis. Most dog food reviews/analysis key on the percent of protein (and protein source of course). BUT, we should be looking at ratios, not percents. Fat (8.5 kcals per gm) is almost two-and-a-half the calories of protein and/or carbohydrates (3.5 kcals) per gram. (Dog food manufacturers use a “modified Atwater” formula to figure calories which is different from that used for human food). Wild canine diets are estimated to be about 49% of calories from protein and 44% of calories from fat. I now think it is more important to look at the ratio between protein and fat than it is to look for high protein or low carbohydrates. The protein percent should be about two-and-a-half times the fat percent which will equal about a 50:50 ratio between calories of protein and calories of fat.

    This means a 28%-protein, 10%-fat food has a good ratio, but the great sounding 40% protein, 22% fat food has way too much fat. I would rather have my dog eating a little more carbs than I would like than for my dog to be eating two times as much fat as protein as in the following food that looks, on first glance, like a great food with high protein.

    PuppyLoveMuffins analysis gives some values in percents and some in grams. Chicken with Cranberries & Apples: 39% protein per muffin (256 calories per muffin) equals about 100 kcals from protein. Then they list 22gm fat in one muffin. That converts to 187 calories from fat in one muffin; that’s 73% fat, almost twice as many calories from fat as from protein! But people see the 39% protein and go for it. Not to mention that 39% protein and 73% fat equals 112% – something’s weird.

    Food for thought – sort of turns all my previous analysis of dog food on its ear (puns intended).

  • theBCnut

    Thanks James
    I saw that page too, but what I don’t know is, does my page not come up all the way or does the chicken formula only have chicken, cranberry, and apples in it? There’s no ingredient list under the title. How can Beef liver, quinoa, peas and cranberries be “complete and balance?”

  • USA Dog Treats
  • theBCnut

    Thanks James
    I wondered how many people who couldn’t spell would go there. I wondered when somebody would be nasty and decide they had to use that. I didn’t think someone would just put that out there. Silly me. Do you think that adding the spaces will help people to keep their mind out of the gutter? I’m afraid I never understand how most people think anyways.
    Thanks for the link. I actually found it last night after my first failed foray onto their website. I still couldn’t find ingredient lists unless the name of their formula is the only ingredient list I need.

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi

    I just have to let you know that your new name at first glance well it’s the Cnut that I am talking about. We will all get used to it but when first viewed…

    Anyhow here is a link to the spreadsheet for puppy love muffins

    http://puppylovemuffins.com/Comparison%20with%20AAFCO%20for%20Web%20Spreadsheet%206-19-13.pdf

    carbs range from 34 to 44%
    protein from 24 to 39%
    fat from 16 to 21%

    All are DM measurements. Claims to meet 2008 AAFCO standards for growth/reproduction and adult maintenance.

    Price is $36 for 5 lbs tax and shipping are additional.

    All varieties use nonfat dried milk and either sunflower seeds or quinoa.

  • LabsRawesome

    OMGoodness. I feel your pain. Must be so frustrating.

  • theBCnut

    I need better internet soooooo bad!!!

    Well I got some of it to come up, and alas, it looks like they don’t follow their pie chart.

  • LabsRawesome

    Seems like another case of operator error. Lol. Seriously tho, the website worked fine for me.

  • theBCnut

    I don’t know if it’s me or their website, but I couldn’t find a list of their products, ingredient lists, or guaranteed analysis. Actually, I couldn’t even scroll down to the bottom of any of the pages. I don’t know if it was just failing to load, over and over again, or what, but I don’t know anything more about their product than before I went there. They did have a nice pie chart that showed how much protein, fat, and carbs they thought should be in dog food, that if the followed their chart, makes it look like a food I would like though.

  • imnohurie

    I kinda agree with what he is saying as long you proportion correctly. I found a dog food out there that I think is very good. It’s all natural, no preservatives and my dogs love it. It’s called Puppy Love Muffins. You should try it or at least take a look at their website and check it out for yourself. puppylovemuffins.com

  • theBCnut

    Feed the number of calories that your dog needs rather than a particular volume of food and there will be no problems with weight no matter what your dog eats. None of my dogs are even overweight much less obese, not even the 12 year old, who started acting like a much younger dog when I switch her from a high carb food to high protein, moderate fat foods.

  • Rebekah Marie Laird

    Todays dog food is different because back then the canines were actually using all the energy and burning off the high amount of fat eaten, and also storing it for the winters. Take a look at todays house dog. Do you think they need that much fat and protein? Do they spend all day outside running, hunting and rearing young? No. They would just get obese.

  • gardenweasel

    Apparently the author has no idea how so-called evolution works, and I hope his other information is more reliable because we need good sources. It doesn’t matter how long dogs have been eating human scraps, or how much, it would have no affect on their DNA, therefore they would be no more omnivorous than their ancestors. If you started eating grass and hay tomorrow you would not magically produce the organs and chemicals necessary to digest it and it would not mutate your eggs or sperm to give this ability to your offspring. Mutation of the genes is the only way any change comes to a species, and I doubt that table scraps possess any mutagenic properties.

  • John Reagle

    With the percentages that you list, the closest I’ve found to the ideal ratio of Protein-Fats-Carbs would be Wellness Core canned, then Blue Buffalo Wilderness Canned. It is a tad expensive but I do mix in a high quality kibble for “filler”.

  • John Reagle

    Pretty ignorant response Nikita. Hint, try to frame a logical, sensible response in your head before blabbering it out next time.

  • Pattyvaughn

    We don’t let them because that would be illegal. And have you heard of the Paleo Diet?

  • Nikita

    why don’t you all of you go and let them hunt and catch their prey fur and feathers and beaks and nails and teeth and tongues and all an hearts and all !!! and why don’t. we. go back to ancestral dieting too !!! yey if it was so good for them !!! let them catch it and eat it them selves let them eat the ducks we yeah them to hint bit no ok don’t eat it!!!!

  • Nita

    I transitioned my 6month old pit to total raw prey-like diet cold turkey with absolutely no problems. She is now 3 and 65 beautiful lbs with sparkling white teeth, clean ears and silken fur. Then 2 year ago I inherited my sister’s puggle. Same full cold turkey transition. The change corrected his prior obesity, cleaned his teeth and ears and improved his fur as well.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Check out Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.”

    Dogaware.com has some great info too.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Go over to the forum and check out the raw feeding thread.

  • Gordon

    What’s your recipe?, i would like to know cuz i want to feed raw, but I’m not sure about the proportions and about the recipes.

  • Betsy Greer

    And yet ironically, my dogs spent their 20 degree day outside in the back yard tracking down bunny poop.

  • allenburnsworth

    That whole argument that dogs are wolves and wolves aren’t dogs is about is misinformed as you can get. First off that is not exactly what he said, secondly the idea that your dog has evolved to eat the crap that passes for dog food is like saying that you have evolved to eat the crap that passes as food today. It takes 40 to 70 thousands years for DNA to make a shift dramatic enough to change what nutrition can be utilized by an animal.

    But lets go with your concept that my dog is not the dog from thousands of years ago. If my dog were left on its own out in the wild, right now, when the weather is about 20 degrees, what grains would it eat right now? What plants would it eat right now? The answer is NONE, it would be hunting rabbit, squirrel, birds, etc There is ZERO, yes ZERO carbohydrate requirement. Your body, and your dogs’ body can create any carb that it might need by converting protein and/or fat via gluconeogenesis

    Today’s dog, genetically is no different from the dog of 15 thousand years ago. And is less the .02% different genetically from its ancestor the wolf. What are the odds that your dogs ideal diet is different from the ideal diet of the wolf? Oh, about 99.8% to .02%.

    I think I’ll go with the odds in this case. It’s time to stop thinking that we can outwit or outthink a couple million years of evolution in less than 50 years.

  • Melissa

    I believe what Dr. Karen Becker (Holistic) Vet says that dogs and cats do not need any grains, period They are bad for them. I love giving mine a Raw Organic Homemade Diet

  • Tim

    I will always feed Merrick as I think it’s as close as you’re going to get to what a modern dog should be getting in their diet. Also, I think it’s important to remember that just because it wasn’t naturally in their diet before man doesn’t mean they can’t benefit from it. There are plenty of vegetables that dogs can benefit from. The key is balance.

  • Pattyvaughn

    You do know that this is the Dog Food Advisor, not a dog food company, right?

  • LEANN

    I hate that you change the bags look, that the natural choice comes in…. all three of my dog were on 3 different kinds of this food and you take off the sensitive stomach on the label so what did you take out, because my dog with the new bag change has had sever diarrhea !!!!!!!! And now I have to find a new kind of food. thanks a lot

  • Pingback: Thanksgiving and your pet: know him and then treat him accordingly | Deluxe Naturals

  • aimee

    I love Dr Wynn,

    Doh … I forgot to add her so thanks!! She doesn’t show up on the diplomat search!

  • GSDsForever

    My top recommendation is Susan Wynn DVM DACVN.

    http://www.susanwynn.com/

    She’s the best qualified I know who is also very pro-homemade, open minded, objective research driven, and experienced in formulating WITH the owner/primary vet according to health specific needs and preferences.

    Beware that there are many individuals who are happy to sell their services, call themselves “canine nutritionists,” and advertise what others should and should not do with feeding dogs who are NOT qualified and degreed. There are fewer than 70 vets who are diplomates in ACVN in the United States, and only a tiny fraction of these do small animal nutrition and are not shills for the big pet companies that make questionable quality foods (Hill’s Science Diet, Purina, etc).

  • aimee

    Hi Darcy,

    If you go to balance it dot com they offer semi customized and customized diets as does petdiets dot com These sites are run by veterinary nutritionists.

    You can also find veterinary nutritionists that can help you at acvn dot org. Click on diplomat directory on the lower left and than search term “cases” to find veterinarians who will work with your veterinarian to help your dog.

  • Darcey Zwicky

    I have a question. My dog has a number of allergies and I want to work with a Canine Nutritionist who specialized in this type of diet, who can also work with my vet in designing a home prepared meal plan that will meet my dogs specific needs. Do you know of any I can contact? Thank You

  • sometimes

    if your dog is healthy Ok i Agree !. Maybe you don’t know he is NOT, until he becomes ill. That’s my story. Hard to believe. Please give the best to your dog, but sometimes raw feeding is not appropriate !

  • sometimes

    Hello I would like you to consider that a “lot” (to consider) of dogs are “asymptomatic” (for a long time …) but have a pathology called hepatic microvascular dysplasia, with this pathology they can eat a lot of protein because of hepatic encephalopathy. They have to live with less protein, in order to survive. A lot of dogs seems to live a normal life span with this amount.
    I really fell concerned because I gave raw feeding to my dog, and discovered he has MVD, so now I’m a little sad sometimes to always read that dog needs that amount of protein blablabla, they need protein, if possible meat based protein, if not they need another protein… And by the way it’s because of unconscious breeders that this pathology is becoming more and more frequent. Even if you want the best for your dog, sometimes it’s not possible, and you have to live with that, and it is really painful.

  • NoneBuriedDeeper

    Try other sources of protein. Chicken thigh meat seems to work very well for my dog. Maybe even canned salmon. Wolves do not eat very fatty animals to begin with. Deer,rabbit , and rodents are very very low in fat compared to beef or farm raised chickens. Most of the fat is in the liver. Which isn’t a very large amount of any given animal consumed by them. I also think you underestimate how much sleeping and resting wolves actaully do. When they are not hunting they are resting and conserving energy. Just like your pup.

  • NoneBuriedDeeper

    Try adding chopped frozen Collard greens. 82 vitamins and nurtients. Ground Egg shells would also be a great addition. It’s vital dogs get enough calcium in their diets for strong bones. The eggs themselves areloaded with vitamin D

  • rose

    Finally, someone gets it. DOGS NEED TO BE FED RAW DIETS!!!
    Stop throwing out your hard earned money by buying cheap dog food and high vet bills. Doesn’t it make sense to follow what is being said here?

  • Shawna

    As Sandy stated, that is not at all true. Protein, they have proven via science, actually helps the dog LOSE weight while keeping lean muscle.

    I have five toy breed dogs all on a HIGH protein, species appropriate raw diet (similar to what a wolf would get protein wise). None of mine are fat and none of mine have issues with gas. Smelly gas is caused by the dog’s inability to digest protein (not the overall amount) and by the wrong type of bacteria in the gut. It’s actually the bacteria that cause the gas not the protein.

    Boston Terriers are a breed known for horrible gas issues. I foster Bostons and I haven’t had one yet that wasn’t gas free when put on high protein and a good quality probiotic.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    While organ meat is a by-product, named by-products like kidney, spleen, lung, etc, actually have nutritional value, even brain and eye balls. I even grew up on chicken heart soup and alot of folks eat liver and gizzards. Whole prey animal wouldn’t be whole prey without their by-products. But what I will not feed is a by-product in a kibble as one really doesn’t know what exactly that is. I don’t fear salmonella as I wash my hands and the dishes but what I do fear is genetically engineered corn and other Frankenfoods created by scientists. And sure, it might be difficult to some to balance vitamins/minierals/EFA’s, but where would we be if we didn’t do anything difficult? There are vet nutritionists and also recipe books that have complete and balanced recipes.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Gas isn’t detrimental, just stinky and unwanted. To help your dog build a healthy gut with a diverse population of beneficial organisms, give supplemental probiotics and feed him a diversity of foods and food types. To help with food transition give digestive enzymes since processed, hard kibble is hard to digest and you might do a slow transition, not the 7 or 10 day transition. Depends on your dogs, but you can take as long as needed to transition them to a different food and that can mean a month or more. It depends on the owner if a dog gets obese on a raw diet. One must watch calories and activity and adjust accordingly, not after they’ve become fat. Take body measurements and record monthly and adjust the calories and activity to keep them at a good “body condition”, not necessarily weight. My lap dogs eat full fat raw and are not obese or have a gas problem. I’m pretty sure they sleep about 20 hours a day or lay there awake watching me work around the house. There was a time when mine was a puppy and he did have room clearing gas, but not anymore. I started giving him probiotics/enzymes a couple years ago and now he eats mod/high protein kibble, raw food, canned food, dehydrated food without any gas or poop issue and currently gets probiotics here and there.

    Be sure to look up “body condition score” as there a few different ones.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Evolution takes time — enough time needed for natural selection to work its magic and for the changes to become scientifically significant. And of course, the amount of time must be reasonable.

    Not just since the development of the extrusion process introduced to the pet food industry in the 1950s.

    To ignore the dramatic changes in macronutrient ratios from what they once were in these ancestral percentages to what they’ve become in today’s kibbles (where carbohydrate figures exceed 50-60%) is completely unrealistic.

    This huge leap could not possibly be explained by nutritional evolution alone but rather the influence of food economics, too. This is due to the simple fact that carbs and animal by-products are cheaper — not better.

    It defies logic for any of us to choose a food just because some scientists at a pet food company assure us they have concocted a “feed” they say is superior to the one designed by Mother Nature.

    This unfortunate concept smacks of what food critic, Michael Pollan refers to as “nutritionism”.

    Nutritionism isn’t science. As I’ve mentioned in a previous article on this website, “nutritionism is an ideology that includes the misguided belief that scientists, veterinarians and nutritionists have the ability to engineer a pet food equal to or better than Nature”.

    I give folks a lot more credit for having the good sense to buy food – not just feed – for their pets.

    Michael Pollan’s 3-rule mantra to “Eat food. Not too much” – and for humans, “Mostly plants” – is simple enough advice for me.

    Although some may exalt science, I for one, even as a scientists myself, choose Nature and trust my own logic to use an animal’s natural ancestral diet as my own personal model for what an ideal food should look like – and certainly not a human-engineeered, factory-made, carb-based food pellet as the sole source of nutrition for my own dogs.

    As one of our previous posters used to remind us all, “It’s food. Not rocket science”.

  • Shawna

    Royal Canin IS making a food with “hydrolyzed feathers”… Talk about sinking to an all time new low… :(

    http://www.royalcanin.ca/index.php/Veterinary-Products/Canine-Nutrition/Veterinary-Therapeutic-Formulas/Anallergenic-Dry

  • GSDsForever

    On one brand I buy now at retail price directly from the manufacturer, the food was sold for double the price in a pet food store as a “special order.” And stores that carried it previously as a regular product on their shelves from the local distributor to all stores also sold it for about 50-75% mark up.

  • GSDsForever

    Well, let’s see. I can name many high end natural brands recognized on this site as high quality that have not only formulated to meet nutrient requirements but conducted feeding tests to substantiate this. A favorite go to brand kibble for me, Timberwolf Organics, has published this information on their website for years.

    And just so you know, it is 94-95% digestible, with 34%+ proteins, and specializing in wild caught Alaskan high Omega 3 fish or free range grass fed New Zealand elk/venison/bison/lamb. Another “natural” brand I have fed, also recognized on this site as a quality food line, Nature’s Variety Instinct/Raw Boost, boasts DVM DACVN Susan Wynn on staff as consulting nutritionist. Add Natura (Innova, EVO, California Natural, etc) with DVM DACVN Sean Delaney of UC Davis Vet School on staff. These companies don’t need to spend time “bashing” (as you say) inferior quality formulas and don’t for one second “stand on the shoulders of those companies that came before them” (as you attempt here again to slander them). They do their own studies, research, and hard work to create top notch formulas as a passion for dogs’ welfare.

    I don’t know why you’re here, but I am finding your unsubstantiated posts slandering these companies and the owner of this site, lecturing and condescending to the rest of us rather offensive. Ditto your post feigning well wishing (patronizing) concern for the vet bills in surgery for the owner of a dog fed a raw diet with bones.

  • GSDsForever

    Amen.

  • GSDsForever

    I really do not understand why you are lecturing to Mike about things he already understands well. It’s a bit odd, but perhaps you are not that familiar with this site.

  • GSDsForever

    You are not distinguishing between veterinarians and the very small number of vets with specialized training in nutrition. It is a VERY small number of vets, in the U.S. and worldwide, who have this training.

    And, by the way, Susan Wynn — one of these — is a consultant on staff for Nature’s Variety (Instinct, Raw Boost, etc). Sean Delaney, another, has been on staff for Natura’s Innova/EVO/Cal Natural/Karma Organic, now bought out by P&G. These are well rated foods on this site.

  • GSDsForever

    No. Only vets who train specifically in nutrition, most of whom become diplomates in the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, have much training in nutrition. It is like any other field, oncology, neurology, radiology, surgery.

    Do you realize that of all the vets out there, only about 70 in the U.S. have this training? And of that number, only a fraction are specialists in small animal (dogs, cats) nutrition?

    And, yes, all vets receive heavy indoctrination from Hill’s Science Diet, Purina, etc. who fund, sponsor, and create programs on nutrition in vet schools. It poses a serious conflict of interest for the most well-intentioned, honest, dedicated vets. Vet specialists in nutrition have written about the conflict of interest in recent years and what a challenge it is for them to really learn and practice what is best for the animals.

  • Shawna

    My vet took 3 years of post graduate nutrition. She recommends raw. Vet Dr. Meg Smart taught Veterinary small animal nutrition for 30 years. On her blog she recommends mixing the diet up, including raw, and suggests macro nutrient ratios as what would be found in many of the designer brands.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Corn and animal by-products are favored by the industry not because they’re more nutritious but because they’re cheaper.

  • GSDsForever

    Well . . . maybe the dog that sits around all day shouldn’t be sitting around all day? As opposed to the high protein being the problem?

    The dichotomy you’re drawing between a wolf and a couch potato dog isn’t really applicable to many dogs that benefit from nutrient dense foods that are high protein/low carb. I have an active working dog — and even if he did not have a job, I would give him one since he is a WORKING BREED. He thrives with work and thrives on such a diet.

    Also, not all breeds tend toward obesity anyway. German Shepherds, my breed, for example. Seriously, you’d have to really try, try, try to make most of them overweight. I’ve had them my whole life.

    Also, high simple carbs + overfeeding + inactivity are what make normal healthy dogs become overweight . . . not high protein/low carb. It’s been shown in studies. And flatulence is more likely to come from indigestible material, not an abundance of protein.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Veterinarians are not the only people who learn science or who make decisions based on research and fact. Most people who visit this website are here to learn the facts and refuse to accept marketing. That’s why they’re here.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    There’s much more than just organ meat in animal by-products.

    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/animal-by-products/

  • Shawna

    In the early stages of KD many recommend lowering protein even though science has proven doing so can be detrimental. Mang suggest kibble even though a canned / wet food is much better for the patient.

  • Science_First

    What makes the “ancestral diet” the obvious benchmark? I find it interesting that your source for “typical dog food” is actually the NRC requirements, which are derived from studying what dogs actually need, not just what they used to eat to stay alive. I feel that your bias is ignoring the fact that with evolution and domestication, came the ability to digest and use food differently than wolves. Dogs are not wolves. Wolves are not dogs. I also think you should reconsider banishing foods with animal or plant by-products to the bottom of your list. Animal by-products are organ meat, which are often higher in nutrients than pure muscle meat alone. Ever seen a wolf or lion take down and eat its prey? What parts do they go for first? The muscled limbs or the guts? The guts, which have been given the name ‘by-product’ which has since become a dirty word in pet food discussions. Plant by-products are more digestible and available to the animal than the original whole plant. You get more nutrition out of Corn Flakes than you do corn on the cob. Some processing is, dare I say it, good for you! By breaking apart the kernel and accessing the germ inside, you allow the body to utilize it as a source of fatty acids, amino acids and carbohydrates, instead of pooping out whole kernels. By the way, feeding an animal more protein than they can use is just making expensive urine. The excess protein gets filtered through the kidneys as nitrogenous waste and excreted. Let’s use today’s dog to make the ideal dog food, not a dog that lived thousands of years ago.

  • Science_First

    Actually you’d be surprised. The major species are covered: horses, cows, dogs and cats. It’s sad how few pet food companies have a veterinary nutritionist on staff.

  • Science_First

    I have read the reports and I disagree with them from their fundamental stand point. I disagree with what you call inferior products. What makes a study pathetic?

  • Science_First

    I’m not sure what you mean by “wrong diet”. What was your experience with chronic kidney disease?

  • Shawna

    Why do you suppose many, if not most, vets recommend the wrong diet / food for early stage Chronic kidney disease patients? If they base diet on science, why can’t they get the diet of a disease that affects so many right ?

  • Bob K

    Science_First – Are you suggesting that Vets have extensive coursework on pet nutrition for dogs, cats, fish, horses, cows, goats, pigs, etc…… somehow unless they are specialized in pet nutrition that seems doubtful with all they have in their curriculum

  • Bob K

    Science-First – Few dog food companies do detailed scientific dog feeding trials these days, other than perhaps some samples and test products. If you have proof to the contrary, please provide the details about dog food trials. One popular large company makes claims about a dog food that cleans the teeth, if you did deep for the study it is really pathetic. Food science is nothing new. It all starts with ingredients, you can fry, broil, bake, braise or boil a piece of ground beef and it will never be anything better. Those companies that came before them often charge a premium for inferior products. Please read the detailed dog food reports on this website and related articles.

  • Science_First

    You do realize that most raw diets contain organ meat, right? What is organ meat? It’s in many dog foods, under the name ‘by-products’. That’s the definition. Meat that is not muscle is a by-product. I hope you don’t get Salmonellosis from your dog. I also hope you find a veterinary nutritionist to be sure you have the proper balance of amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins and minerals because it is not easy. I also hope you have money saved up in case your dog needs surgery from consuming all those bones. Good luck.

  • Science_First

    Actually, it’s not feathers…Chicken by-product meal is not allowed to contain feathers…

  • Science_First

    I suggest you rethink your definition of “garbage”. Corn is not garbage. It is incredibly nutrient dense and highly digestible, which numerous studies have proven. High-end “natural” brands have to be formulated to meet AAFCO requirements in order to claim itself as balanced. However, how many of those brands have done feeding trials to confirm that their food is proven digestible and available to the dog? Not many. I find that many of these newer companies are simply attempting to stand on the shoulders of those companies that came before them and paved the way with years of research and study…and then turn around and bash them.

  • Science_First

    Actually, veterinarians do NOT only learn what pet food corporations tell them. They learn science. They make decisions based on research and fact, not misguided conclusions. I’m sorry that people refuse to accept fact and instead choose to believe marketing.

  • 1TEPA

    Go RAW, best there is. I will be getting a standard schnauzer and will be feeding him raw. This guys videos helped me get started http://www.youtube.com/user/stunner4500/videos
    and from there just do some research join a yahoo group on raw fed dogs or something were you can get support and advice hihgly recommend it good luck

  • Jessica

    OMG thank you so much II crys II my puppy is so happy and not lazy she likes to run and everything thx put it on tv plzzzzzzz GOD bless you

  • Jeanne

    Our dog weighs about 90 lbs. She is a German Shepherd mix. We feed her roasted boneless and skinless meat that we buy at the supermarket and roast ourselves and then mix it with canned salt-free vegetables. She also eats some cheese and frozen marrow bones and peeled apple slices and blueberries as snacks. I would NEVER feed my dog the dog food that is sold in stores or on the internet because there simply are not enough checks and balances to make sure it it truly healthy.

  • GIL

    Getting a new bulldog 9 weeks , we like organic food , and sure what is the best food , was told Royal cannin is good food but I look it up n it’s process feathers n turn into food ,, hmmm not sure if I want to give my dog feathers .
    What is a good food ? Or brand ?

  • aimee

    Hi Grannygrinch,

    The primary source of smelly gas comes from undigested protein that are acted on by the colonic bacteria.

    The gas from undigested carbohydrates is generally odorless.

  • grannygrinch

    The gas comes from attempting to digest grains….not from eating meat. If you want to give your dog the best diet possible you might consider investigating a raw or home cooked diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. You also wind up with tiny, nearly odor free poos…a nice thing.

  • Jenny

    I somewhat disagree with this article. Any animal (including humans) who consume a lot of protein become gassy. Also, the wolves burn a lot of fat then a dog which sits around most of the day. I think that if you fed your dog what a wolf does then they are going to become obese because of the fat and make your whole house stink because of their farts.
    I have already had to switch my dog to a lower protein dog food and it has done wonders for her already.
    Am I wrong in my thinking? I would really like to know because I am trying to switch my dogs food again because I was told to get a grain-free dog food to help some more with her gas.

  • Laney

    At our independent retail store, we sell big bags at 27% markup, lower than most places, lower than Petcos in some cases.

  • Nick

    If you ever read the book Pukka’s Promise: The Quest f9r longer lived dogs, you will feel bad for veterinarians because they only learn what the pet food corporations. Tell them

  • Pattyvaughn

    I certainly can’t say for every place or for your vet, but the vets I worked for, for 14 years, had normal retail mark up. I personally put the price on everything, so I’m not taking a guess. But of course, just because some do that doesn’t mean they all do.

  • Cindy

    Ohio, I think you are right, I know personally from pet store owners that the profit margins are not that great anymore on pet food, not sure about treats. I don’t think it is 100% anymore. Everyone on this forum makes here and there inaccurate statements, so I can understand that, we are ALL HUMAN (YGTI, Pattyvaugh et al….). I know though what she meant; vets get the products at wholesale prices. They also get incentives if they sell a lot (science diet). Some of them pay for their training. Whoever pushes the product most gets into their office (PR marketing). Not necessary the best product though. In an ideal world they would investigate all of the products on the market in Vet schools, but I don’t think they know much more than you and me about the different brands.

  • Ohio

    This is in response to number 2. I highly doubt that vets make 100% on the food they sell. They are slightly higher than pet stores. I worked at an independent pet store in high school that did not sell cat or dog food – at all (they were open 30+ years). There was no way to make a profit considering the space it takes and that big pet stores basically sell it close to cost to get people to walk in door. Pet stores and vets are not making 100% on cat or dog food.

  • aimee

    I think the phos content will depend on the processing. Some will be close to that found in meat and others will be much lower.

    But all phos. is not the same. The phos in plants, being bound to phytate ,is of poor availability vs phos in meats.

    This is why human KD patients plant based diets may be recommended over animal based. By utilizing plants a higher protein level can be fed.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101223171949.htm

    I agree with Shawna that using fat for energy over carb. can have benefits for the KD patient.

  • Shawna

    No, not even a teeny tiny bit offended losul. As you know, I appreciate how you research and learn.. I’m the same way..

    Ask as many questions as you want. Hopefully I know the answer.. If not it was something I needed to research anyway :)..

    Buster is a very special little case because of his oxalate stone potential problems as well as the possible pancreatitis. I haven’t heard what the results were if they were posted? I think of and pray for Buster and Johnene often!!

  • losul

    Disqus wasn’t working well for me againmost of the day either. Thnx for the replies. Hope I didn’t offend you in any way. You are the teacher on this subject I’m just trying to learn. Good night Shawna, sleep well!

  • Shawna

    PS — IF symptoms warrant protein restriction then it, of course, is advisable to lower protein. However by keeping the environment clean of toxins affecting the kidneys, clean water and by utilizing nitrogen trapping you can keep the blood cleaner allowing for the higher protein..

  • Shawna

    Some believe that kd dogs need more protein than healthy dogs. And in the following research they found that diets as high as 56% protein had no adverse affects on dogs with 75% of their kidneys gone.

    ” No significant ultrastructural differences were found in glomeruli among the three diet groups. These results do not support the hypothesis that high protein feeding had a significant adverse effect on either renal function of morphology in dogs with 75% nephrectomy.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3702209

    I did note your comment about quality (animal) protein :)…

    Disqus is being a royal pain tonight. I have attempted to post from my phone – eventually I can but it takes FOREVER. I’ve tried my iPad which never did post and now moved to my laptop.. Hope this goes.. Gotta head to bed after this as it’s taken me darn near 20 minutes to post these three posts —– thank you Disqus!!! :(

  • losul

    I have heard that most grains were very high in phosphorus. I’m not sure most grains would ever be advisable in any dogs diet, special needs or not, lol

  • Shawna

    PS, fat is advised over carbs because it adds calories without any phosphorus. The only grains that should be used in later stages of kd are sushi rice and farina (both very low in phos).

  • losul

    Certainly, I absolutely agree with all that and have no argument whatsoever Shawna. Thats why I said high quality and bioavailable of utmost importance.

    I was just thinking that beyond the KD dog’s phsysiological needs, could it be better to use carbs and/or fat for energy needs?

    I think I took a special interest in this over Johnenes dog Buster, my previous dog was named Buster, and i’m just trying to learn more about it.

  • Shawna

    In kd the waste that is most important to consider is blood urea nitrogen which is produced from the breakdown of protein. One ounce of soy protein is going to generate more blood urea nitrogen then one ounce of beef. Even Science Diet uses animal based protein over plant based in their canned kd food. They use egg whites, the protein that has the highest bioavailability aka “high quality protein”.

  • losul

    Aimee, I’ve researched a bit and it does look as though both carbs and fat “burn” a lot cleaner as an energy source, producing mainly only H20 and CO2 as waste products which then leave the body by urination (the water) and breathing (gases through the lungs).

    That’s not to say though that high quality bioavailable protein (animal) to meet the kidney dogs needs, is not of utmost importance.

  • Outside_of_the_Box

    Interesting. Thanks Patty.

  • Pattyvaughn

    1) Yes, it is the case. They spend thousands and thousands of dollars doing studies to figure out how to make a food good enough using garbage and figuring out what they have to add to get good results from garbage.
    2)Vets get normal retail mark up and they buy food at wholesale prices. That is what they get out of it. BTW normal retail markup is 100%, so half the price consumers pay goes to the vet office and the vet gets his own food at half price.
    3)Balanced only means that it fulfills the guidelines set out by AAFCO which are rather limited. Any food that has the AAFCO statement does that.
    4)Yes, it is.

  • Outside_of_the_Box

    Seems like a few people here who might know what they’re talking about.

    So here’s a few questions/comments:

    1) Seems obvious to me, when you actually analyse the list of ingredients, that the mega vet brands include all kinds of garbage. And the high-end natural brands, do not. Is this not the case? Forget ancestral diets, is it not common sense to avoid feeding my loved dog garbage like that?

    2) What is the vet – dog food relationship? They mark it up I assume. Do they get free food for themselves and staff for example? Or major discounts perhaps?

    3) I often read that it’s “natural” advocates that bash vet food. But I’ve found it’s more often vets and vet brand loyalists who say things like – vet food is balanced and regulated and has studies behind it – Well what makes you think the high-end natural brands aren’t balanced? And what exactly does balanced mean anyway? As for regulation, I assume they are also regulated. And why should I care if you regulate garbage anyway? As for studies, most of the money is with the mega vet brands, so that’s where the studies are. That’s all. Doesn’t mean anything.

    4) Of course no one diet is perfect for every dog. Nobody is arguing that. But this isn’t about that. It’s about simple natural dog-appropriate ingredients on the one hand, and all manner of garbage on the other. It’s an easy choice here.

    Even if you say it’s a question of money, you don’t have to buy the high-end natural stuff. Just cook really simple stuff for your dog. Most don’t feed their babies/children the garbage you find in the popular dog food brands. I guess it’s a question of awareness, being informed, priorities, how you think about “pets”, etc…..
    Comments, corrections, questions are most welcome :)

  • Pattyvaughn

    Hey Shawna
    Look for an email from me.

  • Shawna

    Hi doggirl and welcome as a poster!!

    The Honestic Kitchen makes a great line of foods. I keep Zeal and Keen on hand and use Preference as a premix as well. If you ever want, I think the Preference can be mixed with cooked meats too..

    Colitis is a nightmare to figure out.. My Pom gets ulcerative colitis from chicken (we finally figured out) and NSAID’s like Metacam or Rimadyl. Glad your pup is on the mend!!!!

  • doggirl

    Hi, everyone,
    This is the first message I have ever done. I used to feed a +4 quality kibble via this site. Twice – 2008 and then February, 2113 – all three of my poodles got sick. The only change both times was a new bag of kibble (same food as always)was used so we’re pretty sure it was a case of the delivery conditions not being optimal. One dog was tested in 2013 & had pancreatitis for the first time in his life. After 3 weeks on ID kibble, his pancreatic tests were normal and only his long time colitis was intermittently showing up (diarrhea, much mucus). That concerned me greatly so I looked for another dog food. Because my vet is totally against raw food and the canned food I changed to after the colitis was still partially active, wasn’t
    solving that problem, I decided to try VERVE from Honest Kitchen. I tried VERVE because my vet wanted my dog to be on a low fat diet to keep the pancreas happy. Well, what a WONDERFUL surprise!!! We slowly changed my dog’s diet to VERVE and for THREE whole weeks his colitis is no longer showing – that hasn’t happened in over 2 years! Also,this dog always had brown stains on his eye teeth since he got his adult teeth in even after professional teeth cleaning. This week I noticed that his eye teeth are white for the first time! My other 2 dogs are now being converted also and are doing well on VERVE. The last 2 days I’ve tried some FORCE instead. I think they like that a little better. So I will probably have to purchase both kinds of food. I am ecstatic over my dog’s improved health.

  • losul

    I’m very happy to hear that all is well in your life Shawna. What I said to you was part of what I needed to tell you for a very long time. My computer is again very unstable, so I hope this posts right

  • Pattyvaughn

    Ah, a new Stargate episode!!!

  • losul

    absolutely. Good way way of putting it.

    Really thick books, lol.

    I like to use a system of checks and balances to help formulate my decisions/opinions, even if it’s not something I wanted to hear.

  • Shawna

    “I can’t imagine a world where Shawna and Aimee are on the same page” — in another dimension possibly? :)..

    I’m still laughing at aimee’s comment… The girl has smarts and wit!! :)

    Edit — in that other dimension aimee feeds high protein raw versus me liking SD :0)…

  • Shawna

    Oh could you imagine the drama, lots of laughter and maybe a little head in hand that would create!! Hee hee That would be a lot of fun for sure!!

    I’m centrally located…. So when can ya all make it? :) hee hee

  • Shawna

    Yes, yes I think we definitely do!! :)

  • InkedMarie

    Think it’d be fun if we could all get together, oh the conversations!

  • aimee

    We do share some similar personality traits don’t we? : )

  • aimee

    I don’t know Cyndi…. If she made a move I might just take her. I used to compete in Judo way back in the day.. I might still have some moves in me: )

  • aimee

    Thanks losul what a kind thing to say, I think you summed it up nicely.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I agree 100%. I can’t imagine a world where Shawna and Aimee are on the same page, but then I happen to prefer really thick books, so that doesn’t bother me. I like to hear the point of view and information from both and then decide for myself what I believe will work for my situation. Or how either fits in with my own experiences.

  • Shawna

    LOL :) THANKS for having my back!!!

    My life is a little less chaotic now and I’m getting more sleep so I do expect I won’t get that frustrated again!! Grandson is mostly sleeping through the night now — that is a MAJOR help. I don’t function well when I am overly tired all the time.

    I’ll be happy to help however I can if you ever need research (or other) help.. :) And I agree, two brains (or more) are always better than one..

    Lastly, I wanted to say how very much I appreciate and value your comment the other day.. Gave me warm fuzzies and made my day!!

  • losul

    hehe good one Aimee.

    You know when Shawna first came back to DFA, I was really worried she was going to get so frustrated with you that she would leave again. Sometimes I just wanted to blurt out, “just leave her the hell alone, Aimee” Turns out she is one very tough gal to put up with you Aimee., She bends a little but will not break. Now if your were just a little more flexible……lol.

    I’m glad both of you are able to have these debates in stride and good humor, because I think we all learn something from them, I know I do.

    If ever I needed help researching a very important matter, you and Shawna are the two I most would want to ask for help, with the sum of both of you even more valuable than the parts.

  • Shawna

    OH MY GOSH, I am literally laughing so hard my eyes started tearing up!! LOVE that explanation aimee!!!!!!

  • aimee

    You are assuming that the reaction is to lectin.. it could be to any number of things.

    All you can really say is that the dog has an adverse food reaction to “X” You can not ascribe cause to the unknown.

  • aimee

    Shawna.. You and I don’t debate or argue…we just explain to the other why we are “right ” LOL : )

  • aimee

    But why even say senior dogs need up to 50% more protein without clarifying 50% of what? It is meaningless.

    It is like me going to two different stores and at one, item A is 50 % off and at the other it is full price. Is the item cheaper at store A or store B?

    Umm … What makes you think the Dr’s I mentioned put every K/D patient on the same diet???

  • Cyndi

    Good, I’m glad! & you are very welcome! ;) I got a laugh out of Marie’s comment too, lol! I’d be 2nd in line, lol!

  • Shawna

    ” but in the past two decades we have realised that many lectins are (a) toxic, inflammatory, or both; (b) resistant to cooking and digestive enzymes;”

    Because I read data such as the above that say “many”, “toxic”, “inflammatory” and “resistant to cooking”. And because if you pay attention you’ll see a plethora of empirical evidence – Audrey with gluten, Gizmo with chicken (yes, not plant lectins but one of a few animal protein lectins (in comparison to plant lectins)), my girlfriend’s dog with green bean issues, Alexandra’s Dante with potato, I was privately contacted by a DFA poster whose dog has an issue with pea protein/lectins (which she has posted here) and MANY others who have posted on here. If you’ld look beyond research I think you’d find the research may be a bit off as to the prevalance… They’ve been wrong before after all…

  • Shawna

    NO, NO, not offended in the least little bit.. Actually got a good chuckle out of it (and Marie’s follow up comment).. You guys crack me up :)..

    I do think that aimee focuses more attention on my posts (and a few others) but maybe that’s because I (and the others) post controversial topics more often?

    Aimee and I would either “go at it” or we’d be good friends with differences of opinions.. Although conversations with aimee sometimes frustrate the blank blank out of me, I actually enjoy debating. THANKS Dad (she says sarcasticly) :)…

    Thanks for the kind words!!!!! MUCH appreciated :)

  • aimee

    Lectins are not a “waste product and are not a pure carbohydrate.

    Besides I have previously posted research that lectins of common foodstuffs (gluten excluded) used in commercial dog food are nearly completely destroyed by extrusion. It is a non issue for me. I’m satisfied with research.

    I’m not sure why you keep bringing this up. Why do you not accept the research?? If you want to critique the methodology of the studies fine but I think you should tell me why you find the conclusion faulty instead of just saying it is and then post alternative studies that concluded the lectins survived the extrusion process.

    You’ve yet to past any data why is that??

  • Shawna

    “They know that dogs with kidney disease and senior dogs have an increased need for protein.”

    I didn’t say 50%..? And when I was saying 50% I tried (but may have failed a few times?) to say “as much as 50%”. Others however, I’ve noticed, do say “need 50% more protein”. I don’t think that is true in every case as some senior dogs likely digest their meals better than others. Those being fed a species appropriate diet as an example.

    True, not all dogs are “cut from the same cloth” but species appropriate diets are species appropriate no matter what cloth the dog is cut from. By the way, I’m not the only person who has fed their kd dog more species appropriate foods/diets with positive results.

    Lastly, if not all K/D dogs are cut from the same cloth (which I whole heartedly agree with) then why is mainstream treatment the same, in most cases, for all these differing dogs — stick them on a low protein, low quality prescription food as soon as possible?

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    Yes senior dogs have a higher protein requirement that young dogs. But instead of saying they need 50% more protein why don’t you ever tell the entire story??? You always leave out the numbers and only say 50 %. Why is that?? It is relative, meaningless and doesn’t convey any real information.

    Briefly in young dogs, 12 % of calories from casein protein and old dogs 18%. That is research basis of where your 50 % comes from. I assume you are familiar with the research behind that 50% that you always like to bring up??

    I have to wonder if the reason you never post the actual numbers is because those numbers don’t support your agenda.

    To answer your question yes dogs on high quality high protein diets have higher BUN than dogs on a moderate protein diet of lower quality.

    You have worked with 1 dog with KD .. no offense but if any of my dogs ever has K/D I’m going to follow the advice of people like Thornhill, and Chew and Osbourne and Bartges who have worked with thousands and thousands and thousands of KD dogs as not all K/D dogs are cut from the same cloth

  • Cyndi

    That was a great thing for your dad to do for you growing up! Even though you probably didn’t think so then, lol! I don’t think it’s a character flaw at all. & I don’t think you should apologize for it, really! You are obviously very smart and you should be proud of that. Even though I don’t understand half of what you and aimee argue about, I have learned alot from this site and reading posts like yours, & others. & fyi, I don’t think it’s annoying at all! :) I was just joking about what I said before, I hope I didn’t offend you in any way. I just said what I did because it seems aimee argues with everything you say and you two would probably really go at it, given the opportunity in person. ;)

  • InkedMarie

    I’ll buy a front row seat!

  • Shawna

    LOL… I can’t help but argue with aimee (and some others). I blame it on my dad :). He used to start debates (or arguments) with me just to get me to think — as early as junior high age.

    I get so passionate and wrapped up in the conversation that I obsess over it if I don’t say my peace.. Yep, a definite charachter flaw!! :0)

    SORRY to any of you that find that annoying!!!! :)

  • Cyndi

    LOL!! Yes, & I think you’d end up killing her, lol! After a very long, argumentative debate however!

  • Shawna

    What are you trying to say!!!!!! LOL :-)

  • Shawna

    When plants bite back… :)

    “Lectins are carbohydrate binding proteins present in most plants, especially seeds and tubers like cereals, potatoes, and beans. Until recently their main use was as histology and blood transfusion reagents, but in the past two decades we have realised that many lectins are (a) toxic, inflammatory, or both; (b) resistant to cooking and digestive enzymes; and (c) present in much of our food. It is thus no surprise that they sometimes cause “food poisoning.” But the really disturbing finding came with the discovery in 1989 that some food lectins get past the gut wall and deposit themselves in distant organs…..

    On the other hand, wheat lectin also binds to glomerular capillary walls, mesangial cells, and tubules of human kidney and (in rodents) binds IgA and induces IgA mesangial deposits. This suggests that in humans IgA nephropathy might be caused or aggravated by wheat lectin; indeed a trial of gluten avoidance in children with this disease reported reduced proteinuria and immune complex levels.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/

    Imagine the consequences of plant lectins in dogs and cats…..

  • Cyndi

    I wonder what it would be like if Shawna and Aimee were ever in the same room together. Lol!

  • Shawna

    “Far in excess of needs” — that is a subjective statement aimee.. They know that dogs with kidney disease and senior dogs have an increased need for protein. They also know that protein does not damage the kidneys (even as high as 56%). “These results do not support the hypothesis that high protein feeding had a significant adverse effect on either renal function of morphology in dogs with 75% nephrectomy.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3702209

    Yes, HIGH protein diets create more BUN than lower amounts of the same quality protein. But, do they create more than moderate amounts of low quality proteins?

    Additionally, the environment as well as contaminated water has as much of if not a greater affect on the toxicity of the blood as does diet. If you control the environmental factors you can feed a “species appropriate” diet to even a dog with kidney disease as evidenced by Audrey.

  • aimee

    I’m sure someone will be sure to post some but honestly losul there are plusses and negatives to every food ingredient. Pick your poison. Eating is never without risk.

    Phytate is considered to be beneficial as an anti oxident and it is considered to be an anti cancer nutrient as well. I’ve read it can be destroyed in extrusion but read in other places it is not. Maybe that depends on the time/temp/pressure.

    Other than the Zn problem in the 80′s I’m not aware of any horrific deleterious effects of phytate as it is now in commercial diets.

  • aimee

    Not necessarily..and don’t forget that meat proteins aren’t “complete” either, so there are always extras.

    I don’t know why people focus on this point though. It seems that on the one hand people fret over “extras” from plant proteins but then on the other hand advocate for protein levels in the diet that far exceed needs, so lots and lots and lots of extra’s.: )

    When I commented about the ancestral diet I was just referring to dogs in general.

    I don’t think there is a health advantage or disadvantage to use carbs for energy instead of protein in a healthy dog. Using protein for energy isn’t as energy efficient as using carbs, so that can be used to an advantage during weight loss. But I feel that advantage may be lost if you don’t use a low fat diet as fat is very efficiently used.

    There is a cost advantage to using carb for energy instead of protein, both in terms of environment and dollars.

    I can’t think of any “waste” products from carbs. But it is late… if I’m missing something let me know

  • losul

    Aimee, assuming most dog food manufacturers have successfully countered the mineral binding effects of phytates with increased amounts of minerals, don’t phytates also have other deleterious effects?

  • losul

    Yes, plant proteins rarely from a single source, because they are incomplete by themselves. Seems that more plant protein would be required to meet the “complete” profile which would then neccessarily include a lot of excess unneeded amino acids.

    I don’t think anyone would suggest any strict “ancestral diet” for an already kidney damaged dog, and I don’t think that many here subscribe to a strict ancestral diet anyway, but in a healthy dog, when you substitute excessive carbs for high quality proteins as an energy source what is the advantage? so far I haven’t found them. Don’t the carbs also generate alot of waste products?

    I’m glad you agree that the protein sources in an “ancestral diet” are high quality.

  • aimee

    I’m not following you..There were different effects on GFR but other than that???

    In people on mineral poor diets phytates are a concern. However in commercial dog foods there is plenty of phosphorus. AAFCO min is nearly twice NRC recommendations and most commercial fooods are way over AAFCO min making it a non issue.

    Back in 80′s??? though there was Zn def in dogs tied into the phytate levels in high cereal based “generic” foods. Can’t say this is seen anymore though.

  • aimee

    If the two different quality proteins are fed at the same level in the diet and as sole protein sources than yes.

    Plant proteins are rarely fed as a single protein source which complicates the whole matter. In stead of focusing on the sources I ‘d look at the AA pool as a whole.

    Overall protein level in the diet plays a significant role.

    Where you’ll find the a lot of protein “waste products” is when feeding an “ancestral” diet. The protein sources are high quality but far in excess of needs so much of the protein is broken down as an energy source.

  • Shawna

    It is evident however that dogs utilize plant protein differently than humans do based on the data (unless they are correct in that the human studies were flawed).

    In kd plant protein based phosphorus binding may be a good thing, but wouldn’t that be counter-indicated in a healthy persons diet then? Phosphorus is an essential mineral and you would WANT it to be bioavailable. Hmmmmm

    Lastly, I thought you disagreed with the idea that phytates are detrimental in an extruded diet?

  • aimee

    The little that I read wasn’t embracing GFR as the reason to use plant based proteins. The reasoning was in part due to phos. and possibly plant phytoestrogens.

    The reason I said it is a paradigm shift for you is because you have been very anti plant protein in renal patients. Yet in people, plant protein is being shown to be very beneficial in part because the phosphorous isn’t bioavailable allowing for more protein to be fed, especially in high demand nutritional states like pregnancy.

  • losul

    O.K., Aimee. I think I can agree with that much, or at least when the amount of the waste products do exceed the capacity of the kidneys.

    Can we agree that the waste products generated from low quality proteins are greater than the waste products generated from high quality proteins, whether they be from plant or animal sources? And also being that most all plant sources of amino acids are incomplete, aren’t more of these incomplete amino acids overall apt to be unusable and excess, and therefore generate more waste products?

  • Shawna

    Please see my accidental post to losul above.

  • Shawna

    LOL — please read my most recent post on soy and kd in dogs :)…

  • Shawna

    I would agree with that. But “excess” is a subjective word. Also, the health of the gut microbes has an impact on the “toxicity” of the blood as well. When utilizing nitrogen trapping a higher, high quality protein diet can be fed.
    To diet you also have to factor in the amount of toxins introduced from the environment as well as the water source. I believe part of my success with Audrey has to do with eliminating as many of the environmental pollutants or “toxins” that are filtered by the kidneys.

  • Shawna

    This study (on dogs) showed NO benefit from soy protein over animal proteins (casein and pork liver) on GFR.

    “The results of the present study are not in agreement with studies in humans that demonstrated a different effect of vegetable and animal proteins on acute renal hemodynamic measurements. Our study indicates that in both normal dogs and those with reduced renal mass, an acute increase in GFR occurred, regardless of protein source.”

    They also cast doubts on the soy studies in humans ” Some claims of different hemodynamic effects from vegetable and animal proteins reported in humans could be related to failure to control the quantity of protein ingested. Indeed, some studies of humans have failed to detect a difference in hemodynamic effects between animal and vegetable proteins (Mansey et al. 1987).” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/745.full

    Interestingly however, with soy, they discovered that the amount of processing did not have an impact on soy protein absorption. Kinda blows the theory on phytates (from soy at least). However, the most processed form was soy protein isolate and I have to wonder if the over processed isolate was just as problematic as the anti-nutrients. I recently read a research paper suggesting isolated amino acids are not utilized in the same manner as whole, undenatured proteins. That’s one problem with research for me —– just leads to more and more questions.

  • aimee

    In people they aren’t switching to plant protein to decrease the cost of the food. It is being done to increase their health!

    Apparently there are components of plants that are beneficial to compromised kidneys.

    I found in high risk CRF pregnancy it is thought better outcomes for mother and child can be achieved with plant based protein diets.

    I think this is cool stuff and who knows if it will apply to dogs but it sure is interesting.

    But I do realize it is likely too much of a paradigm shift for you to ever embrace.

  • aimee

    Yes the kidneys have a function/job. I don’t know I guess I might word it as. “When unusable or excess AA are fed to patients with kidney failure, the waste products generated from the breakdown of those AA build up in the body contributing to toxicity.”

  • losul

    Aimee, I can pretty much understand the whole technical passive process concept, and possibly and technically “work” doesn’t seem the best word to use. Does “burden” suit you any better? Does not the kidneys perform a “job” whether passively or not?

  • aimee

    losul… it is a passive process. I realize in lay writings the word “work” is commonly used. That is unfortunate. Here is a simplified reference: https://www.inkling.com/read/physiology-linda-s-costanzo-4th/chapter-6/reabsorption-and-secretion

    Urea—Example of Passive Reabsorption: Urea is freely filtered across the glomerular capillaries

  • Shawna

    Yes, of course a VERY well planned plant protein diet could supply the appropriate amount of amino acids for increased bioavailability. And companies like Science Diet and Purina will figure it out so they can make the cheapest food possible.

    I would NEVER feed Audrey soy. And I don’t trust any research that suggests soy, in the amounts westerners consume, is a healthful food.

  • aimee

    I don’t disagree with those statements. In renal failure the goal is to match AA profile supplied in the diet with AA needs. Couldn’t this be done with AA sourced form plants? It would take careful balancing but would it not be possible?

    Apparently it is being done in humans. In fact in one paper the term that was used was “rescue” diet. The patients did better when animal based proteins were replaced with plant based.

    Soy plays a prominent role in these diets. The benefit in part due to phos being in a bound form in plants… our friend phytate. So this anti nutrient is being used as to benefit the CRF patient.

    We should move this conversation if you want to discuss further. It is an area I only recently started to explore and find the information fascinating!

    This is from an older paper: “Nutritional intervention studies have shown that consumption of soy-based protein and flaxseed reduces proteinuria and attenuates renal functional or structural damage in animals and humans with various forms of chronic renal disease….. Vegetable protein has been shown to have a beneficial effect on renal disease in animals and humans.”Ranich et al 2001.

    This is from a more recent but short term study:”These results, if confirmed in longer studies, provide rationale for recommending a predominance of grain-based vegetarian sources of protein
    to patients with CKD.” Moe et al 2011

    I don’t know that similar research has yet been done in dogs or cars but it is very intriguing.

  • losul

    Sincerely I thank you Shawna, means alot to me. And thank you for your dedication, caring. honorability and being a huge part of making this site such as it is.

  • Shawna

    Thanks Losul, I absolutely agree..

    Also wanted to say thanks for your comments on preparing grains.. We all want to make a positive difference to others don’t we!! And I LOVE it when that difference is with people like you…..you’ll do some research yourself…understand the topic better…and share what you’ve learned with others!!!!

  • losul

    Good job, Shawna!

    That’s exactly the kind of reliable information I was looking for just today to back up our mutual thoughts. Aimee might not think so for whatever reason, But I would say that information comes from a very good source-Washington State U – College of Veterinary Medicine.

    I come across alot of actual research papers that appear promising for whatever I am looking for (per the abstracts) but without being able to read most of the full texts, and without paying an arm and a leg, it becomes almost meaningless.

    thnx.

  • Shawna

    I can’t believe we are revisiting this subject yet again..

    “The higher the quality of the protein in the diet, the less wastes created for the kidneys to eliminate. Low quality protein requires the kidneys remove more wastes. which makes them work harder. Egg and meat contain higher quality protein; cereal grain protein is of lower quality which leads to more wastes for the kidneys to eliminate.” http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/ckd.aspx

    “More wastes for the kidneys to eliminate” and more wastes to cause increased uremic symptoms. This is true for dogs and this is true for humans — bioavailability is key.

  • losul

    I didn’t read his book, but I gather from googling that he is referring to periodontal disease?

    Strange coinage to use if you ask me.

  • LawofRaw

    Ahh yes, Chapter 7 starting on page 135. It’s been a while since I read it, but I approve of his coined phrase, Foul-mouth AIDS.

  • Pattyvaughn

    OK. I can see interpretting her remarks to mean any food versus any other food, but I didn’t even put it in the context of interpretting labels and GAs.

  • aimee

    So you saw some stuff on it too huh? I have an appointment to go to. I’ll comment later

  • aimee

    I didn’t say Lonsdale was “foul mouthed”… As I recall that was the name of a chapter in his book and I found his coinage of the term offensive.

    I’m in general none reactive… I participated in a research study on aggression. After I was screened they called me back and offered me 500 dollars if they could interview and test me over a two day period and I had to agree to giving them blood samples. So I did it! One of the tasks I found very frustrating. I was to identify people’s emotions by facial expression I had a hard time doing this… maybe I don’t react much because i don’t identify emotion well ???

  • LawofRaw

    Yes so did I. There is a recent publication that was referred to in a Sydney news source (I haven’t read the publication, just the news source) that states findings which reveal that that may be the case, about the switch from meat to vegetable based protein. I would actually agree to that. That same study or was it another recent study? That suggest humans may live longer on a vegan diet over that of a meat based one. You know what…. I don’t find that surprising at all. That said, we are not the same as canids. Mother Nature is a factual testament to that.

    Re kidney failure, I’m no expert nor am I qualified to speak on such or make comprehensive recommendations (However I’ve made some from a layman perspective), nor do I know anyone that has a dog with it, as all my friends and acquaintances feed their dogs a raw meaty diet (except my neighbour who feeds poor commercial foods) and our dogs just never seem to have any kind of ailments at all. However, going by other anecdotal accounts such as that described on dogaware dot com and of what Shawna tells us, such dogs with kidney failure seem to do OK on a fresh, meaty diet.

  • aimee

    I think the OP intention was to ask can we simply look at a label and know which food is “better” based on judging meat content and macronutrient profile.

    Can I look at a label of a meat based diet and know that that particular diet will always be better/ confer better health than a vegetable based diet? I can not.

    However I can answer the question “Does beef has a more complete essential AA profile than corn” Yes it does.

  • aimee

    Your post was: “There actually IS evidence that dogs do better on higher protein diets. There is also evidence that dogs with kidney disease do better on animal based proteins than on vegetable based proteins.”

    I worded my post in a way I thought was clear. I purposefully didn’t address the kidney disease comment though off hand I can’t think of anything published that concluded animal based proteins are preferable to vegetable proteins in kidney failure.

    Interestingly enough late one night I came across recent publications in the human field whereby in certain situations of CRF in humans the diet is being changed from animal based protein to vegetable based with great success.

  • LawofRaw

    No that’s not the reason I believe you keep your cool. Many emotional people speak from the heart. Progressives are more that way. I’ll leave it to your imagination what I may further mean on that and your coolness and your accompanying history of purpose rhetoric I’ve read on DFA.

    Lonsdale is anything but foul mouthed, and everything but wise. Derived from many years of witnessed accounts from his veterinary clinical practice as did Billinghurst, Becker, Symes, and many others. Those of which just happened not to allow big corporate business to influence them for the sake of money and nothing else. :)

  • aimee

    Well LawofRaw… Like anyone I don’t like to see myself be misquoted or be made a participant in a ‘straw man’ fallacy.

  • aimee

    I didn’t mean for the comment to be condescending. I just didn’t know if you looked!.

    Observation and anecdotal information is important, it is the “first step” in the process of science. However, testimonials and even expert opinion are considered the weakest “evidence” in Evidence Based Medicine. I don’t make the “rules”, only report them.

    Similarly, eyewitness testimony is faulty as well and unfortunately many innocent people have paid the ultimate price.

    Over the years I’ve read parts of Volhard, Pitcairn, Becker( her entire book), Lonsdale, and Billinghurst, along with NRC, Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Buffington’s book and Fascetti’s book in addition to numerous peer reviewed papers and proceedings.

    I feel I’m fairly well rounded in my education.

    I found Lonsdale’s “Foul Mouth AID’s” offensive.

    How cool is that that Fascetti is on the Foods for Health Institute! It is so refreshing to see so many disciplines come together for human health!

    I found her research review very through and objective. What did you think of it after reading it?

    You commented that I always keep “my cool”…. I’m able to do that because I don’t have an agenda, other than disseminating objective science based information.

  • LawofRaw

    One other thing….This website kind of serves as a long term progress study. I mean, since there are many regulars here, most of which are converted or pro-raw feeders (a far cry from the numbers when I first started to post here, so your subtle messaging is really failing, as is such, across the US and the rest of the world in general, thanks to the hard work of good people spreading the word of “evolutionary” and “ancestral” species appropriate canine diets), have dogs that it will be interesting to see how long they continue to discuss their dogs’ health. :)

  • LawofRaw

    Mmmmm my dogs are getting one of the best (fact) rotational protein sources and foods in general tonight my time.

    Picked up my pre-ordered grass fed toxin free goat carcass and had my source cut it pieces for me, this morning, my time.. Mmmm aren’t my dogs so lucky that they will be getting a world apart of superiority and evolutionary based canine super food to that of inferior long term disease causing Hills and Nestle processed pet dubbed food.

    Aren’t my dogs so lucky!!!

  • LawofRaw

    I’ll talk about Dr. Andrea J. Fascetti at the end of this post, but first……..If I look around a bit, I’ll “find many well educated people come to the same conclusion”.

    Thanks. I appreciate the condescension. Ahh yes you’re right. There are many such educated people. However, education and ulterior motives, are two very different things.

    If you look around “a bit” you’ll also find many well educated people on the side of common sense, and witnesses of the mother of all studies and application, Mother Nature’s million years of canid evolution!! These same well educated people that know and realise, just like many of us not so educated engineers, architects, other scientists, dentists, physicians, lawyers, librarians, bank tellers, construction workers, trades-persons, and from so many other walks of life, if such officially endorsed, licenced, and publicised same, revealing officially that dogs’ and cats’ diets of raw foods based on their evolutionary diets actually did improve all facets of their health and prolonged their lives (as it factually would and does), over that of commercial processed pet foods, then the pet food industry woukld stand to suffer great losses in business, and even be opened up to law suits.

    And so, none of the same financiers (mostly the pet food conglomerates, closely aligned university groups, and your employer) who invest and provide the funds, partially or completely, for those studies and feeding trials that result in favouring processed pet foods over others, will never fund raw feeding studies and trials that would unequivocally reveal Mother Nature’s evolutionary and ancestral canine and feline diet to be superior, life prolonging and dramatic overall health increasing. Just won’t happen. Such would stand to lose billions….not millions, but billions in dollars.

    Now let’s talk about anecdotal evidence supporting raw fed in spades being far superior than processed pet foods. Such millions upon millions of anecdotal accounts and testimonies simply are refused official scientific recognition. Again, the biased financiers stand to lose billions! The irony of this ignorance, is that when it comes to eyewitness evidence in a court of law, that’s sufficient to condemn a defendant to sentencing. Yet such anecdotal and witness accounts regarding raw and non commercial pet foods, is not enough to be recognised by the very same western pet food comglomerate and vet school endorsed scientific community.

    Before actual evidence was finally linked that smoking did indeed cause lung cancer, back in the 90′s, most people still new that smoking was a cause of such cancer, Rhetoric, and little data or lot’s of data, or no data, made no difference. People’s common sense, told them that smoking kills, given the mass anecdotal accounts of smoking associated ill-health, and deterioration.

    You say you couldn’t read Lonsdale’s discourses because you found it offensive, yet there is nothing offensive about them, No cussing, no profanity, just plain and simple common sense, data, and factual “rhetoric”. And yet, you say and claim that there is absolutely no such evidence showing an appropriate species based diet exists. If you don’t read literature that you may find revealing to counteract what you and your employer want to broadcast/advertise/divulge, then it is a great shame.

    Dr. Andrea J. Fascetti works for one of those very university groups closely affiliated with commercial pet food industry, She is involved with a Business Development Program of the Foods For Health Institute of Davis University Campus in California. Her group and department work with the pet food industry to market their ideas and concoctions called pet food. This is actually public knowledge!

  • aimee

    If you look around a bit you’ll find many well educated people come to the same conclusion. Here’s one:

    “However, there have been no studies to date to support that this feeding approach has any long-term health benefits compared to feeding other types of pet food.”

    Andrea J. Fascetti, VMD, PhD, DACVIM (Small Animal Internal Medicine), DACVN Raw Food Diets A Research Review 2011

    I started reading Lonsdale, I found a lot of rhetoric, little data and his writing style was offensive.

    I listened to the entire 1 1/2 hour recording.

  • Shawna

    Yeah, the 60ish years was a bit off – quite a bit.. Yesterday I read an article by veterinary nutritionist Dr. Meg Smart and she said “Highly processed and dissected and reconstituted (convenience) foods have only been part of our diet and that of our pets for a little over 200 years. Less than one percent of the time, that dogs have been associated with man.”

    Although having nothing to do with the length of time kibble has been available :), I found the following data she wrote interesting as well (especially when considering she taught nutrition for 30 some years).

    “History
    Although physically diverse, the dog is genetically, anatomically, and metabolically similar to the wolf. [i] What has changed dramatically over the last one hundred years is their environment, diet and our relationship with them. The majority of dogs are no longer working and allowed to roam freely in the rural country side supplementing their ” human food” diets with small prey, manure, livestock feed, carrion and any other foods that appeals to them.“A complete and balanced diet” meant nothing to them or their guardians. Death was by accidents or an infectious disease. Now dogs are confined, over vaccinated, their activities are controlled by us, their environment polluted and sanitized, and their food and treats made primarily from highly processed waste products from the human food chain.” http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2012/07/practical-advise-on-feeding-your-dog.html#more

  • Shawna

    They are breaking ground with that new cat rabies vaccine as it is different from other rabies vaccines in that it is non-adjuvanted. They are currently the only company to make the product so the proof is solely up to them not multiple manufacturers. And it was in their best interest to attempt to prove three year DOI as some people may still chose to vaccinate their cats every three years instead of yearly. There was definitley financial insentive to establish three year DOI in my opinion.

    Dr. Schultz was instrumental in getting law changed from one to three years. If they can demonstrate that the vaccine lasts AT LEAST seven years it will be easier to convince the powers to be to make changes. Some may while some may not but none will without the testing. At the very least some states may allow for titer testing for up to seven years post vaccination. As it stands now, vets are allowed to titer versus getting the shots. Why not allow that for dogs too. I personally would pay the extra monies for the titer over vaccinating.

    Yes the OP did say that “There is simply no evidence…” but that is not the post you replied to. You replied to her post that said “I’m searching and searching for studies to support this and can’t seem to find any!” That post was a direct reply to my post about animal protein versus vegetable protein. Hence my assumption that that was the material you were referencing. Patty has a very valid point too.

  • Pattyvaughn

    What do you think was the OPs intention in mentioning those specific foods and yet using the phrase “let’s say” to preface it? My interpretation was that she was saying “meat versus vegetarian” If she was saying a food that everyone here recommends versus one they don’t, she shouldn’t have picked BB, IMO.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Except if I am recalling correctly it was James Spratt in the mid 1800′s that first created a kibble.

  • LawofRaw

    Very true Shawna. In fact I recall many instances like that especially a couple of years ago.

    I don’t want to gang up on anyone, but I’m just getting suspicious about what I believe is really going on with certain posters.

    Having said that, I actually do respect aimee’s intelligence. I think she is highly intelligent, just that I believe in the poster’s (calling him or herself Americana) statement, that something has always felt, “fishy fishy” about certain posters’ agendas.

  • LawofRaw

    I just can’t believe an unbiased debater, would make such a conclusion, given that there actually is evidence, when it comes to the health of both dogs and cats. You said in the past that you just couldn’t finish reading any of Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s literature and evidence as you couldn’t cope with the tone for a lack of a better description, of his discourse.

    You also happened to be listening to a Lonsdale recording on the way to a conference or something and couldn’t finish listening to the whole recording. I know what I’m thought about that and still think about that!

  • LawofRaw

    Actually aimee has a long history of doing what you describe. I have to say though in her defence, that she at least always keeps her cool, and is always in control of her emotions. Such is not my strength as I really like to tell it as I see it.

    That’s usually the case with radicals or leftists like me, and the more self controlled, less passion orientated but more materialistic demeanors are a common trait of right wingers or conservatives.

    Although I prefer to think of genuine radicals or leftists as righteous in thought process, intentions and actions.

    Anyway, sorry for the digression. I don’t know how long you’ve been a DFA reader, but there are so many examples of what you describe about aimee such as one that comes to mind being, when I’ve raised the Pottenger cat study of the 1940′s which revealed by a 10 year inadvertent or accidental study with outcomes showing cats fed a diet of raw scraps improved in every facet of health including extended life longevity. aimee’s response was something along the lines of …….but when a study revealed that the cats lost or decreased in so and so when fed only raw rabbit carcasses etc. So there’s always just some negative counter connotation to what ever discourse one has in support of a raw or species appropriate diet. Yet in any argument, no raw advocate here ever suggests that feeding just one meat based protein is recommended. I mean, that’s just one example of of so many!!!!

  • LawofRaw

    It always seems like no no no no this or no I never do that. I said that this and never said that. There always appears to be some excuse.

  • aimee

    Oh no no no…. I’d never say I “trust” a company that does feeding trials over a company that doesn’t. There are companies that have done feeding trials whose food will never cross my dogs lips : )

    I’m sure I’ve posted things like Veterinary nutritionists recommend X or Y. Or I may have provided a list of foods that meets particular criteria.

    And I have posted about my own personal experiences with certain diets. (I kinda thought that was the purpose of this site.)

    My intention though is solely to convey information. I have not to the best that I can recall ever said “I think you should feed your dog brand X or you shouldn’t feed your dog brand Y.”

  • aimee

    That is the study I’m describing. Merial spent a lot of money, so I heard, to establish DOI yet the vaccine is only licensed for 1 year.

    Here is a link to the publication: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23059358

    When the Rabies challenge fund demonstrates DOI of 5 or 7 year what will be done with that information?

    Yes I read the conversation… the OP said “There is simply no evidence that dogs are healthier on a diet of let’s
    say, Blue Buffalo dog food over Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula dog food”

    I see that as being very very different from ” suggesting that there is no data demonstrating meat protein is superior to vegetable protein.”

  • Americana

    Hi Shawna – That’s exactly what I feel. It always feels like that subtle sense that Aimee does make biased subtle recommendations and always seems to jump in on a liken debate on the team of say kibble against fresh or like you wrote trust a company that does feeding trials over one that doesnt ya da ya da.

  • Shawna

    I think, like Americana said, you do make recommendations however as stated you are very subtle about it. Like — you would always chose a blank product over a blank product. And that choice points to big name brand conglomerate kibble makers. Or — you would trust a company that does feeding trials over one that doesn’t. Those are recommendations wouldn’t you agree?

  • Shawna

    There is a study, JUST like the one you are describing, for cats using a product that doesn’t use adjuvants. Dr. Schultz does talk about this in the interview he does with Dr. Becker (I can’t remember which of the four it is in though). The product is licensed for one year only cause the three year studies didn’t produce enough dead cats.

    The original poster is suggesting that there is no data demonstrating meat protein is superior to vegetable protein. I don’t see how beef versus corn gluten meal isn’t relevant as that is what initiated the comments on research. Did you not read the entire conversation?

    I agree with Schultz as well — that two rabies vaccines are required due to the fact that they are made from a killed virus. The Rabies Challenge Fund site stated at one point that all states recognize the 3 year vaccine protocol but some counties and municipalities may require more frequent. He also states that vets that vaccinate more than needed need educated.

  • aimee

    Americana,

    I have “no horse in this race” I do strive to evaluate objectively without preconceived bias.

    But I am human so I’m sure I fall short and I undoubtedly have been shaped by my experiences. For example when I was a teen I saw a German Shepherd choke to death on a bone. It was a traumatic experience to witness. Because of it I’ll never give my dogs bones to chew.

    Not sure what you mean by “singing the man made profit machine song” If you have followed my posts than you know I have said my personal preference is to balanced over unbalanced and feed fresh over processed. My own dogs eat a combination of home prepared and commercial.

    When discussing raw I acknowledge the bacterial risk, it is real, I do not think it should be just dismissed, but I’ve also said I haven’t seen people who feed raw needing to run to the ER for food borne illness : ). So I don’t “wig” out about it. However I do think is it wise to err on the side of caution when dealing with the young/ the elderly or those with immune compromise. That goes for both animals and people.

    If you read my posts than you know I don’t make recommendations as to what to feed. I don’t say this food is terrible or that food is perfect.

    There are risks and benefits no matter what feeding option you choose.. eating is always a risky endeavor!

  • Americana

    Howdy Aimee – I’m a long time reader, never a commenter but i just gotta ask – How come you always seem to argue against anything that nature wants? Like that dogs ancestral diet has not proof of better health bebefits. Why do you sing the man made profit machine song all the time? You don’t do it directly i notice you do it subtlely and always seem to argue for cooked against raw and man made that against natural that? You alsway say you are a data girl basing stating facts on studies but you never seem to give an even an inch to the raw or nature argument. A true unbiased folk would sometimes argue for both points of view. Fishy fishy if ya’ll ask me.

  • aimee

    Not sure what “is beef better to corn gluten” has to do with this discussion.

    I was addressing the OP question: Is there information showing a macronutrient profile of 56/25-30/14 is superior to other profiles?

    In regards to the vaccine issue, my understanding was the study did follow necessary protocol. The vaccine though, wasn’t licensed for three years because the challenge virus supplied by USDA didn’t cause rabies in enough of the controls.

    The company repeated the study, at a great cost to them and again..not enough of the controls became ill. My understanding is to license they have to use the rabies strain provided by USDA.

    I don’t see why a company would be willing to invest in a seven year challenge study knowing that another company got “burned” twice in a 3 year study.

    In the 1988 rabies survey there were 18 cases of rabies in dogs that had been vaccinated. 4 only had 1 vaccine ( I agree with Schultz young animal should be vaccinated twice several weeks apart to confer good immunity) and the other 14 were beyond the recommended vaccine interval. Unfortunately how far out they were I don’t know. Maybe they wouldn’t have responded anyway. But I think this is a political hotbed. Heck I think there are still areas that don’t recognize 3 year vaccines.

  • Shawna

    As usual we’ll have to agree to disagree aimee.

    For the record, I don’t need a study to tell me that beef is better for my dog than corn gluten meal. My common sense serves that purpose.

    Edit: I am aware of a French study and Dr. Schultz mentioned in a video (I think it was) that he has done studies but neither met official approval. Again, if the financiers aren’t going to back the studies that would be approved than they won’t get done.