Are Dogs Carnivores — or Omnivores?

I’ve read thru the comments and think there is much truth in each comment. I looked in my dogs mouth. His teeth are mostly pointy with some flatter (not flat) teeth in back.. He loves meat, and common sense says high quality meat should be first. My dog enjoys plain cooked fresh vegetables off my plate. Brown rice or barley, non gmo, is reasonable and provides fiber and micro nutrients…he has access to a quality meat and bone meal dry food that includes sweet potato and other vegetables….I began a krill oil supplement and he is itching less and seems healthier. The extreme views to exclude any form of high quality food seems as pointless as extreme political views. You know thru experience what works and what doesn’t. If your pets are excelling without health issues then you must be doing something right. If not, try what others recommend from their experience. Reasonableness is key.

A bad diet is a bad diet, even if it has meat in it. Having meat in it wasn’t what made it a bad diet, it was everything it didn’t have in it.

Regardless of the truth of the matter, your “argument” proved nothing. Dogs teeth are not like humans and they have allergies to plants too. Dog food companies make anything under the sun if they think they can sell it, it has nothing to do with what is healthy or best for dogs. You’ll have to do a lot better than that if you want to be the end all and be all of the debate.

and another thing to finish off, you might want to look into what really goes into commercial dog food, i can tell you it will be hard to find but when you do it will make you sick, my dogs only eat organic foods now that i make myself and both are fit as a fiddle! my boyfriends mum has a cross she’s 14 now and has been fed meat her whole life, she has the worst smelling breath i have ever known due to nothing cleaning her teeth her stools are constantly runny ( not diarrhea but really gooey soft browny/orange stool) off eating meat her whole life shes got arthritis and a heart murmur which is increasingly getting worse due to a poor diet of being fed only meat her whole life? what does this tell you would anyone like to explain this because many years ago when families had dogs as pets they were just fed scraps off the table including veg and they were living to 28 years of age?

Sorry but this is a load on bollocks, notice the difference between cats and dogs teeth dogs teeth are a lot like humans, including their back teeth, where as cats are all pointy including their front teeth where humans and dogs are flat. if dogs aren’t omnivores then why would some dogs be allergic to meat and companies be making meat free dog foods? Debate over, dogs are omnivores!

How is it that everyone misses the part about “relative to the carnivorous diet of wolves” That means that dogs can handle some more starch than wolves, not that they should be fed a diet heavy in starch and light in protein.

Finally time to wise up to the impact of domestication on the domestic dog. They are not wolves and are vastly superior in their ability to digest starch than their ancestors. Check out this article from a wee journal you may have heard of (yep-Nature):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html

-Our results indicate that novel adaptations allowing the early ancestors of modern dogs to
thrive on a diet rich in starch, relative to the carnivorous diet of
wolves, constituted a crucial step in the early domestication of dogs.

That’s great! Orijen is a wonderful food, I’m sure your dog will do well on it.

Cool, I would be interested in getting an instruction for dog making!

I can vouch for the carrot thing. A couple months ago I was walking Gertie and there was something orange on the ground, she snatched it up and ate it before I could see what it was. I was a little worried actually – I was hoping it wasn’t something that could cause a blockage or perforation. Then later that day she pooped and I saw orange in her poop – I broke it apart with a stick and saw that it was a whole baby carrot – not even in bits, it was the whole carrot stick not digested at all.

I’ve got to agree on that, completely!! By error, I found out that I have one that definitely can’t handle much starch. And my 2 that can eat about anything and do fine on it, do way beyond fine on a high meat diet.

So what about BARF vs Prey Model raw? I am of the opinion that a little bit of fruits, veggies, and herbs (for vitamin and antioxidant sake, not just to put carbs in the diet) is good for dogs. I dont think I would see a wolf outside eating potatoes, but I would see one eating grasses and berries.

if your dogs eat something it doesn’t even mean they can digest it.
For instance, my rottweiler loved eating grapes and rotten apples in the garden. He would consume tones of grapes right from the vine. Needless to say he couldn’t digest them well.
My cat loves potatoes, and peanuts but would not touch raw chicken.
My ferrets absolutely love fruits, but surely cannot digest them.

I am not here to debate whether or not dogs are carnivores or omnivores, however I will say that a lot of major dog food brands concoct their food with nothing but garbage. Using what’s left on the slaughterhouse floor, mixed with roadkill and euthanized shelter animals is not something I want to be feeding my dogs — carnivore or not. Don’t believe the shelter animal part?.. do some research. If you insist on feeding your dog animal products, I recommend you buy top-of-the-line brands, such as Blue Buffalo. And all of these “allergies” being caused by animal protein alternatives that “kip” keeps talking about.. I’ve read tons of reviews on the Natural Balance vegetarian dog food formula. Most of these peoples’ dogs had severe allergies. They got them shots, put them on special diets and dog food, but once they tried Natural Balance, their allergies were GONE.

And there’s a big difference between a “HUGE protein overload” and getting enough protein in your diet. I’m not saying a vegan or vegetarian diet is wrong, just saying that you’re taking things to extremes, apparently to make a point. Which is deceiving and flat-out wrong.

BTW, humans and dogs are not the same. So bringing up your lifestyle when talking about a dog’s diet seems pretty silly. Kind of makes me wonder.

sorry but the world’s oldest dog was an Australian Cattle Dog named Bluey who lives to be 29 on a raw diet of Emu and Kangaroo.

We made Dogs.  I feed them the same food I eat from McDonalds to salads.  All of them have lived more than 22 years.  If it is going to kill me, then it will kill them.  Humans created this animal based on the food we eat.  You all need to get a life

that is why the world’s oldest living dog in the Guinness Book of World Records is Bramble, a 27-year-old border collie who lives on a vegan diet of rice, lentils, and organic vegetables because its so “depriving.” Just like how everyone freaked out when I became vegan that I would be so deprived of protein only to find out so many American diseases are from a HUGE protein overload on the body. bs.

I had a dog that just seemed to like to eat grass sometimes.  He knew which type he liked and would always look for it.  It never made him vomit.  One day he went to another type of grass and started eating it and vomitted within minutes.  Turns out he had eaten a piece of plastic and needed to get rid of it.  If your dog isn’t vomitting from eating grass, then he may just like a little green in his diet.

they say a dog will eat grass if he or she has an upset belly!!!! how true is this statement? My male pit bull will eat alot of high grass when we are at a park..? He is on a grain free diet because when a puppy he was losing hair and getting small pimple like rashes.. My vet had tried hamburg and rice for awhile, nothing seeded to work, all but grain free..and that was my choice..ask a vet , ya right!!! some do not seem to know much about nutrition.. Would he be lacking something in his diet and that is why he eats grass ? I have him on Nutri source seafood select grain free.. I think Noe after reading alot of this site I may need to put him on Orijen.. If I’m paying, it should be the best….any fed back would be helpful thanks

If you ever spend any time on a farm you’ll know the dumbest animal on the planet is a COW. ( vegan )

The more you eat the more will be bred for you! The best way to get rid of them is to become a vegan! Veganism is the only way to help save the planet!!!!

My favorite food is Reeses Peanut Butter Cups.  You’re not trying to say I should make that my diet are you?  It’s very simple really, don’t get a carnivore for a pet if you don’t want to feed a carnivore.  Get a rabbit or go without a pet at all.  And if you haven’t offered your dog all those other animals pieces parts in a side by side taste test, then you’re only guessing about his all time favorite food.

My dogs all time favorite food is PEANUT BUTTER!  How the hell “natural” is it for a timber wolf to come across peanut butter in the wild?   Your so called “all scientific evidence/natural and undeniable “bias” seems to fail to account for that little phenomenon.  Maybe its because dogs eat in the wild IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, not because of “taste preferance.”  And even if that were true that house dogs prefer the taste of meat-based products over non (which its NOT) would you kill your dog in order to feed another?  Than why is it ok to torture and kill other intelligent and sensitive animals on factory farms in order to feed your dogs its remains?  Just a bit hypocritical, isn’t it?

Thanks so ,much for insight that should be obvious to anyone who actually has a professional insight on animals…:)

I live in Italian countryside – we have all the fruit and nut trees here. What I see dogs do here, is to eat nuts and fruits all the time – it’s natural for them! Apples, figs, nuts, you name it! Yes, they’ll surely chaise a rabbit too, but to catch one doesn’t happen every day – it’s an occasional treat for them. That said, if you want to give your dog a “natural diet”, it surely doesn’t base mainly on meat. 

by the way, these dogs ARE given food regularly, whether or not they want it, and appear well fed, but not fat (except the dauchshund, but they all appear fat to me)

And, this is why I feed my dogs Back to Basics.

Hmmm, I can assure you my pups aren’t getting rid of hunger pains when they dine on the acorns…

Also, dogs and wolves (not sure about coyotes) will eat broad leaf grasses to rid themselves of parasites.  The grass leaf will slice through the worm.. 

Other forms of grasses have nutrients like chlorophyll, magnesium etc..  And they will eat yet other grasses to cause themselves to vomit and purge.

hmmm. I would like to educate you on this simple fact that I know.

The reason you would find plant matter in a wolf or coyote is they will eat the entire animal, furr, bones, organs, meat… Well, out of that list.. The only thing they can not digest is the furr.

Being it that they can not digest the furr, sometimes they can just poo it out, but sometimes they get constapated from it.

Because the wolf/coyote can not digest plant matter.. it comes out kind of like a laxitive which dramaticly helps the animal get out the furr that is making it constapated.

The ONLY other reason either of these 2 animals would have plant matter/fruits and berries in there digestive tracts is that they were trying to get rid of hunger pains which could be possibly distracting them from hunting game.

More light reading: Fruit found in 26.2% of 592 coyote scats over 7 years from a wildlife management area (non-urban).
http://www.seafwa.org/resource/dynamic/private/PDF/CHAMBERLAIN-204-219.pdf

Ps-Since coyotes and dogs interbreed and produce fertile offspring I’m going to go ahead and suggest they are pretty darn similar animals and their dietary history can be considered highly comparable.

I agree Hound Dog Mom!!

Cats eat mice (which are primarily plant eaters).  They also eat small amounts of grasses (such as “cat grass”).  Yet we don’t classify them as omnivores because of this..

Guest –

I believe you are a little confused as to what carnivore means. If an animal is a carnivore it doesn’t mean that the animal eats meat and only meat. A carnivore derives energy and nutrient requirements from a diet consisting of mainly or exclusively meat. Animals that depend solely on animal flesh are called obligate carnivores, while animals who occasionally consume non-animal items are faculative carnivores. The grey wolf is classified as a carnivore, because they eat some plant matter does not change this. Rabbits and deer, which I’m sure we can all agree are herbivores, will occasionally eat animal matter – does this mean they should be reclassified as omnivores? No that would be silly, just as calling a wolf or a dog an omnivore is silly.

OH did my weird sense of humor pop out on that one!

Sounds like a supply problem to me.  If only we would set out enough small mammals then they wouldn’t be hungry and continue to eat thing that offer them little or no nutrition.  I’m not trying to say that wolves and coyotes eat nothing but meat, I’m saying that if enough prey animals are available to them they wouldn’t try to get nutrition from sources that are not appropriate for them.  Oh and by the way, my dog ate my floorboards once.  I don’t think eating what he needs to survive was on his mind…and I can’t tell you how many surgeries I’ve helped with, on animals that ate something that was not a species appropriate food item.  It happens.  Fulminate carnivores do eat things that are not meat, even for nutrition.  That’s what makes them not obligate carnivores.  They are still primarily carnivores and should get most if not all of their nutrition from species appropriate places.  Fulminate carnivores can get some nutrition from fermented vegetables too.  That doesn’t make them vegetarian.

That’s the difference between an obligate carnivore and a fulminate carnivore.  When they eat stomach and intestine content, they are also eating the enzymes necessary to digest those contents.  Carnivores do sometimes consume things that are plant in nature, but they don’t necessarily utilize what they consume.

The country dogs are carnivores too, but if you compare with the domestical dog it is a little bit different because of the maners where they live. In this case only the maners can change this animal.

 Any breed that originates in Europe is better than American lines! We destroy everything! I’m just being honest with what I’ve seen.

Hi Dayron….

I’m not disagreeing with you, BUT wolves, bears and dogs all were once the same. 50 million years ago they split. dogs and wolves are carnivores. Bears are omnivores. they dont have the same dentition, and have completely different habits in the wild, dont forget bears go into a state of  hibernation. Plus love honey. Dogs and the wolf will from time to time pick on things that are not meat , bone , and guts, but that is their intelligence telling them to learn and adapt, they are very smart and always try new things. But for time and memorial they are meat eaters.     

You just will not give it up. Dogs are domesticated wolves. Tell me this. Why do cats eat berries and grass in the wild? Are these obligate carnivores omnivores too?

I agree. Wolves are carnivores and bears are omnivores. However, bears are part of the order carnivora.

Wow, its been a whil sinse I’ve been on here. Wolves are without a doubt a carnivore. Don’t know why people degrade the wolf in their uneducated thinking. Cats in the wild will eat vegitation as well, but you still call them strict carnivores. The biology of a wolf is very different than a bear. Trust me. I will say that some of your theory is correct.

Most of my fosters have been puppies!!  Most foster parents (in my group at least) find them to be too destructive…  I LOVE their antics but I especially LOVE their puppy breath!!!!!

Plus, it is great knowing I can give them a good dietary start

“may you never have to smell the other end”  bwaaaa hahahahahahahahah

That is a great picture I have attached a pic of a baby bulldog with Mommie

Hound dog mom, 

Or should I say grand mom, they are very cute good luck!!!

On a lighter lighter note…my new pup was just born! If anyone is interested in seeing. Not a lot to look at now but wait until the wrinkles and ears come in.

Go to dashsboard (on disqus.com), edit profile, notifications.

oops Marie/melissa… trying to keep you pitbulls straight confused me LOL…. however I do know that I asked Marie nicely what she fed regardless of what breed she has I did want to know, so what do you feed your standards melissa?  point does not change any, just wrong name.  Could some please tell me how turn off notifications, I just figured out how to do the disqus this morning other than guest, and it sends me notifications. I would like them turned off!!   it only links me to this comment not disqus directly. I would appreciate it unless I can figure it out before hand.   

 Ima-

You have confused the posters here and our comments. I, MELISSA have the standards. MARIE has the smart phone.

Yes CH means Champion. This in AKC Conformation shows. There is a points system and depending on which Division (state) you are in you need a total number of points for your dog to get its Champion title. I am in New York and show Bulldogs which need a total of 15 points to get the Champion title. And included in the 15 points must be 2 Majors from two different Judges. The points are awarded when you win Winners Female (cause I think his system won’t allow the proper name) or Winners Dog and depending on the amount of females or dogs you beat out that will determine the amount of points your dog receives. A Major can be a 3 point, 4 point or the hightest a 5 point. So it is not easy to get a Champion title. The AKC judge is suppose to picture in their mind the AKC standard for your breed and then pick out the dog or female that is closet to that standard. The AKC now has the title GRAND Champion which is a dog or female that is already a Champion but continues to show and gain points for the Grand Champion title. Many show people believe this is just another way for the AKC to make money cause you need to be out showing longer and that means entry fees. I have one girl that only needs a 3 pt Major and she will have her Champion title. Yes the AKC shows are only open to pure breeds and intact dogs. When you watch the Westminster the dogs you see are all Champions or Grand Champions and they are competing to be Best in Show. Basically when your dog wins Winners Dog he can now go on to compete in his Group – for the Bulldogs it would be NON-Sporting. There they compete against other non-sporting dogs likes say the French Bulldog, Poodle – out of them is picked the Best in Group – they can then go on to compete against other dogs that have won their group like the German Shepherd from the Working Group  for Best in Show. Yep it is crazy. Obed, Agility have different titles. I have been showing/breeding Bulldogs over 15 years. I am also a member of the BCA (Bulldog Club of America) and an officer in the LI Bulldog Club and also the AKC Bulldog Puppy Referral Liaison for New York. I am always willing to learn to better my breed and find this site very helpful with everyones input.

Imapistol,
I’m well aware of your position. You expressed it thoroughly.

Here’s mine:

Marie is my friend. Here on DFA we refer to her as “Sweet Marie.” She only gets riled up when some one is rude. If you have problems with her, you’ll have problems with me. I believe you owe her an apology.

 Yes I agree and partly No I do not Toxed, when I am speaking of certain dogs yes adaption is correct and maybe I should use better words.  I am always in a hurry and my fingers sometimes work faster than my brain.  Here is my thought on the No part I do not agree 100% with:

In instance of my biggest problem eater, I would have to say it is more how her generations have evolved, since confirmation of her breeder who has been quite involved with me through the years and back and forth between US and Germany bringing dogs into his own program.  These dogs are from several generations of raw fed dogs we can track back at the very least 10 generations because it was his family and friends who bred them.  We could probably go back to the birth of the breed if all of breeders were still alive now to ask. I surely would if I could.  What do you feed is almost always me first question when I am talking to other breeders (of any breed).  In this instance evolution would certainly be a factor on her resistance or lack of for any type of commercial feed.  I very well could have been given false information, but what I have seen myself I have to believe he is correct.  He is no spring chicken and was born at a German Kennel.  Why would this example make so much sense to me and not others?  I have tried adapting her to commercial dog food with no such luck.  When I decided it was time to go raw I have such awesome results.  My vet (without doing allergy testing) said it was her food.  I was told to put her back on what her breeder fed, but when I did so she still continued with the ear flare ups.  Her sire was never able to adapt to commercial dog food either and is fed raw.  This very well backs my thoughts on evolution of the lines she comes from.

She backs excellent A1 hips for several generations and packed full of show and work titles and brings way too many other assets to the table to be cut here, even if she didn’t work or show she would be just as happy at my feet as would I.  My dogs are part of my family first and foremost.

“Someone” (you know who you are) does not understand the breed and the several different lines (by her own admission)! To say a german Dog was brought to the USA and Bred to another Dog born is USA out of 100% Import lines it is now an “American Dog”  not!!  LOL   The North American Lines and generations of this breed bred by Americans is by far anything close to a true German (or any Import) Bred dog as long as the lines are kept pure.  My second female has 3 generations bred by her breeder and several dogs were brought over from Germany so he is an American breeder of 100% Import Lines in which they received their titles in an American Schutzhund club, however they are by far american dogs. Same goes for your Czech and DDR dogs working and earning titles in any affiliated club, because there are several american breeders of purely working dogs here in the US, and they would jaw drop if they were told they were breeding american LInes LOL  I have never seen an american line GSD work (sch/IPo etc) to earn the true titles on SV standards and ethics. Many of the working dog enthusiasts would rof laughing at the thought.  This breed here is the one breed that will strike the largest debate among enthusiasts.  I was born into the breed and decided to start breeding my own after the closure of our AFB because the trainer there was retiring and brought me into the world of SAR.  I bred my first litter in 96 and have only had total of 8 litters between 4 females in my time because I am very picky at what drives and temperaments are produced.  I haven’t bred again since 09 and prior to that my last litter was on 03, so yes I am very picky and ethical.  Overall Health and mental stability are my goal, diet has no effect on that.  I had several un educated opinions behind all lines and my personal preference doesn’t make any other line any less worthy of the next in this breed.  I love them all but what I personally like to see is lacking on a pure  american line dog.

So I hope my long babble has explained better my thoughts opinions and experiences.  I am not at all rude or abrasive, if you can’t take it do not dish it.  I run back and forth between too many things during the day and to jump on here quickly between kids, dogs, and everything else around here I literally type 65 words per minute and perhaps my wording and bluntness is a little much for the drama oriented posters who live to stir up trouble and twist words to benefit their claims and reaction of totally misconstrued comment (s).  That was never my intent on my post and if I at all became defensive it was very well warranted. 

Hi Hound Dog Mom-

Ch means that the dog has conformed to the breed standard as set forth by the parent breed club and AKC. It means on any given day, that particular dog was the best example of that breed presented(this is class points)  A dog earns points based on how many competitors are in each class-designated by single points, or “majors”.

Hi Hound dog mom,

The CH is for Champion and is awarded through conformation showings. Dog is evaluated on how well it “conforms” to breed standards put forth by the AKC. Breeders usually seek this as it raises the value of their lines. Only pure bloods are able to do this. And they must also be intact.

I show in rally and obedience so my dogs titles come after their names and represent their trainability and work abitility. Both my pure GSD and my mix compete in these events.

holy cow – we need Leerburgs on here to put them staight !  LOL

 Yes, you would still have problems if the lines were all related and the genetic defect continued to be passed from generation to generation.

 We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Anyways the is the dog an omnivore or a carnivore reminds me a little of what came first the chicken or the egg. I guess either side of the argument could be right.

 For real Marie who doesn’t understand what??  You clearly can not read
and better get that smart phone to the smart phone doctor if it is
sending you replies that I sent to dogegonefedup….I asked you when I
replied to your first comment.  And I was very polite.  “I have to ask
what you feed.  If you don’t mind of course. “  Go read!!!!!!!  I made sure to reply under your comment, it says on the bottom in reply to Marie (I double checked)  And if you took offense to the 24/7 comment then I am really glowing!!! hahahaha

I did re-read through everything to make sure I did not step out of
line.  My motto is “to each their own”.  I am very fair and rarely pass
judgement…this case is an exception to my rule.  I will not respond to you gain, you can have the last word.

Moral of the story I have both carnivores and goats——>doggonefedup 
LOL  Thanks for the laugh and intelligent comment and information you
passed along on what you feed.  I appreciate your responses you left and
the giggle too!! 

I started by posting my conclusion, and I do not think I am 100% off base there,
(maybe 20ish LOL).  If I were completely off, then I wouldn’t have been
having food issues with a couple of my dogs now as well as other dogs through the years.  I have been on this quest
of educating myself on nutrition for a couple years now (after the loss of one of my former sheps due to obstructed bowels), which is why I stated I am by far an expert, just pointing out what I have concluded in my experiences and paying attention to things I never did before. My sheps are now raw but I need something that will work for my precious back yard
bred amish mutts aka goats  hahaha   I think I am 99% close to a decision thank you dog food advisor. 

What you’re talking about is “adaptation” not “evolution.”
Evolution takes much longer than a few generations. It requires structural and physiological changes, beyond the established parameters, not just pushing the limits.

You’ve pushed the dietary limits and your dogs have adapted. Just like Eskimo dogs routinely eat fish with out concerns for rickesetta. But your dog’s basic physiology hasn’t been moved beyond the established tolerance. They’ve adapted.

 We are not talking about the evolution of man according to darwin  LOL I have one of those smart phones too…go figure.  I just opt out of notification because I find it rather annoying and I have more important things to do.  But this site as I browse has this thing on the right hand side that shows recent comments so I just happened to see this prior to logging out.  Your “smartphone” was 44 minutes late BTW or is that how long it took you to think of a snide reply?    

The definition of evolution is any change across successive generations in the inherited characteristics of genetic population. Successive is more than one, which could be 2 or 3 LOL  So there goes your million year philosophy. 

More than one generation of “my” dogs have been fed raw diets.  I had to go raw because I just could not find a quality feed that worked perfect for them.  I am linking this coincidence to what my dogs have evolved to accept due to not being fed commercial feeds for several generations, which more than likely contributes to “why” I can’t find a happy medium.

Thanks for answering my question about what you feed  too….think your smart phone missed that one :-/

 Yes Terriers are part goat LOL  Literally they are garbage cans well my rat terriers are anyway, they came from the Amish.  Cats never last around here, too many ferrals farmers shoot them.  My terriers serve the purpose cats do with mice rat and varmint control and get where the shepherds can’t.  On the other hand I had a wirefox that was the opposite.  She thrived on meat based kibble grain free or an oat or rice formula.  As does my Bull Terrier who really doesn’t work she is just an existence.  We love her anyway, something about her ugliness that just grew on us.  She was intended for show but one of her ears doesn’t stand correct.  I would have to use a tater chip bag in the ring to keep it up LOL

Thank you for telling me what you feed.  I have looked at Fromm.  I was also feeding TOTW for a long time, recalls and the fact it standing alone is a diet food, calories are not high enough to maintain energy levels of a high drive dog.  My dogs work, they are shown by my kids in OB, showmanship etc.  They all track we all track as a family sport.  No clubs close enough to me to get back into bite work and I just placed my last working line female with a kid starting out in Sch so the ones I have left here just my west lines.  They have a good drive and the versatility I wanted to keep back for producing therapy service and trackers.  I have been independently tracking and training in SAR since the early 90′s.  I was a standing/ voting member of NASAR up until 2003 when I had to make some major life changes.  I stuck with shepherds over my bloodhounds because of their obedience and versatility.  I can change direction with them from day to day and they know exactly what is expected of them.  So today I concentrate on our family business the kids and their showing career to earn scholarships.  Tomorrow we might all take a break and chillax in the shade with furkids all laying around my feet.  hahaha 

I have plenty of venison, usually dogs get what is left from last year and we will work on current, they also get rabbit. ground pork, chicken, turkey, gizzards, beef liver duck. eggs with shells and once a week they will get a scoop of either cottage cheese or greek yogurt.  My one female likes white meat, she doesn’t prefer venison or beef and I have to cook her livers organ meats and trick her into eating them she will not touch them frozen or thawed.  She is one picky girl but is she ever beautiful inside and out.  I am only my second month 100% raw and will continue to feed the ankle biting mutts kibble, but I want them to have a good quality grain free formula.  They get enough grain acting like goats and wabbits LOL

Hi Imapistol-

I recall seeing your name in the past, though not frequently-

Several things-I have to agree with  you that not all dogs thrive on the same foods.To me, this is a “no brainer” as just like humans, dogs are different from dog to dog.

With that said, I disagree that there is a huge influence as to where the dogs came from, whether imported or not. While some dogs(bloodlines) may have common sensitivities through that genetic bloodline, I don’t believe it matters what country. My standard poodle line is from Europe. As I am typing this our most recent import from Germany is sitting at my feet-ALL our dogs eat the same foods, and all thrive equally well. I agree that some do better with a bit of grain, but again, that is by dog, not by breed or bloodline.

As for the comment that European breeders have higher standards-I still have not stopped laughing. You see, American bloodlines are well sought after in Germany and there remain very few lines there that do not have US bred dogs recently added into the lines to improve structure etc. This of course is the breed I am familiar with, not shepherds.

One simply can not make sweeping statements and not expect someone else to pipe up with a counter thought.

If I try to give my boys raw they turn their noses up at it and won’t touch it till I brown the outside a bit. But at the same token they do “hunt” out back and catch rabbits, ground hogs, and other varmints often. they don’t leave anything but maybe some bits of fur here and there. go figure! 

Imapistol,
 Honest Kitchen, and SoJo’s and all the other freeze dried are going to do nothing but get your GSD’s pissed off at you. I know because mine just looked at me with that WTF face when I tried them.
 Are you still working your dogs? Are they just sorta keeping an eye on things or lots of things for them to do? 
 Terriors, aren’t they part goat?

Evil! Evil! LOLLLL!

~for anyone else out there reading this, please don’t take us seriously. We’d never give them candy. We’re just joking.

 I feed mine a variety of raw meats and I was chastised for not forcing my LC female to eat organ meat, but I am a feed dealer and also sell a line of natural supplements for people so I added a dropper full of trace minerals to cottage cheese once a week.  But all of my years of trial and error have found me looking for a kibble that works for my entire pack and never found anything.  They do better on meat only.  The terriers, well I always scratch my head at their choices but they are garbage cans and will eat anything.  You should see them when I rattle the potato chip bag LOL.  I did however get creative and cook the gizzards for her with some olive oil and she ate it no hesitation.  The only thing other than meat I may add to their raw is cottage cheese or greek yogurt.

I never cook my dogs meat but I do always freeze it prior to feeding.  I am in the process of making my own commercial grinds with bone and meat.  It has been a process and I would never push or suggest anything unless I have fed it and believe in it.  Not many commercial foods am I overly ecstatic about.  I was always affraid to feed raw in the past because of contamination.  One day I said I need to do something different here with my one girl.  Once I did I was so sorry I never did it before.  I have friends I have known and educated me in breeding and selecting genetics since the early 90′s being an air force brat and working with military dogs I have many resources.  BARF has been preached to me for years, but I don’t even like touching meat to begin with LOL  I had 101 excuses why to not do it.  Then one of my Czech males came from a Kennel in UK and there were videos of them throwing live rabbits over kennels for the dogs…I shrieked LOL.  Well now I am older and wiser and been looking at other sites to educate myself more on a good choice kibble.  I travel a lot and worried about how I will feed my traveling dogs raw not having proper storage. I did try honest kitchen months ago and the dogs just walked away from it and my male who is quite the spoiled boy sat and looked at me so sad.  hahaha 

But not all my dogs have worked good with kibble, well not all the same type of kibble and I refuse to have 3 different bags laying around.  I come here to research what others feed and if you have a suggestion on kibble I would love to know what you add to your rotations. 

 Far from angry.  And yes I think hound dog mom should mind should mind their own business because I was quite clear.  Sometimes people just don’t take time to read everything and if back yard breeder and mutts struck a nerve….hmmmm???  Someof these people I wonder if they have anything better to do.  They seem to know it all.  There is only one commenter on here that I agree with 9 times out of 10 and found her to be quite educating other than the site owner themselves. 

So again, to clarify my point:  Certain dogs and certain breeds have evolved to accept certain diets.  I never said they shouldn’t be fed a better food.  What works for me, (which is raw) may not work for the next person, or grain free kibble may not help keep weight on an active dog.  I have been in the dog world from diapers, literally and raised bloodhounds, grew up with Goldens and their diet was very different from my current dogs.  Sometimes some dogs do need a little grain to maintain stamina and weight (for example high energy working dogs and sporting/hunting dogs).  My Imported dogs thrive best on grain free and raw which is what generations have been fed.  My Shepherds are 100% carnivores.  Which by the way share 99% of their microchondrial DNA with the wolf.   My rat terriers well they should be carnivores but they like what the horses eat….well not like but Love and they like eating their road apples (gross) and they are fat!!   Little evolved farm dogs raised on bread and table scraps for generations.  Mine eat a chicken rice kibble but still head for the barn.  I just busted one of them with his head stuck in the rabbit pellets.  Crazy little mutts!!! 

 Toxed2loss, back in the 70′s I had a 2 GSD’s who I taught to do the same with raspberry’s… One would eat them and the other would just drop them from his mouth. It was unbelievably funny watching those 2. 

Ha, ha! Maybe Bit-o-Honey bites! LOL When we had a GSD, she used to go out blackberry picking with me. She was so cute, carefully reaching her lips out to get just the berries, not the thorns, as she nibbled them right off the vine.

I do not agree with you at all!! The food stamp comment is my sense of humor, can you imagine walmart on food stamop day being cleared by a bull terrier with gas…yes it is that bad!!!  However my concern of what you think of my opinion is non existent.  Everyone that posts here 24/7 has their own opinion and voices them clearly no matter what review I try to read I have to sift through so much drama and trash talk to get to the real points. 

Dogs evolved from wolves thousands of years ago.  Their diets have adjusted to what we feed them.  And yes Euro nations have a much higher standard than most american breeders, sad but TRUE!  I never said that a mutt should not be worthy of a good quality diet…you tell me where I said that??  I simply stated my experience and some examples!! 

I would not be on this site at all if I wasn’t trying to educate myself further.  So why don’t you just mind your own business and quit reading into what I said word for word to benefit your own interpretation. 

I think I clearly steered clear of PRETENTIOUS when I stated I am by far an expert but these are my opinions based on my own personal experience. Quoted here “I am by far an expert or have any degrees, this is based off my experience and common sense.” Case Closed!! 

One more example: I bought an East DDR/West Working female from a breeder friend of mine.  Could NOT keep weight on her to save my life.  I asked her what she was feeding and it was Science Diet.  So I bought Diamond Hi Energy which would never be my first choice and she kept weight on her good.  This was a 16 month old dog at the time I acquired her and the breeder bred both parents.  Just an example on what certain dogs have eveolved to accept as a diet to maintain their weight.  I was Throwing her TOTW wild by the ton (so to speak) and she just couldn’t keep weight on until I switched her to a diet that had corn in it.   I have been taking in rescues and fostering for years and been through a ton of feeds for certain dogs so I know well about the american bred mutt whether it be pure bred or mixed breed…it was a figure of speech!!  I also took a solid black male who was direct Import from Netherlands and oh the stories about trying to save this dog   I did though!! 

 Not at all implying anything other than certain dogs and certain breeds have evolved to accept a certain diet, don’t get your under britches in a bunch please!!  One of those that always has to sing to the choir, well I am not a member of the choir.  Sorry everyone has an opinion and I let you have yours, you can let me have mine.  It is true that many dogs whether they are bred by good breeders, puppy mills, pure breeds designers (which are mutts) can be fed a corn based diet throughout generations and thrive just fine….where others have been raised on generations of raw and top of the line grain free foods and not so well.  I am calling my rat terriers mutts back yard amish bred dogs who love garbage and my american bred shepherd who comes from a very well known breeder of CH dogs and feeds them ALPO…come on, now!!  Never have a jumped all over you nor would I.  Has the heat gotten to you?? 

yup! they got a sweet tooth. must be the white Reeses cups they get once in a while. :0)

Hound Dog Mom,
Point well made. The bear IS an omnivore whereas the wolf including domestic dogs are opportunistic carnivores not omnivores ! :0)  I only said that to bring a different perspective. some times it makes the obvious easier to see
……miracle grow…..  ;}

I knew you were joking with the Miracle Grow comment.

However, I will have to disagree with you about the statement “I don’t think there is really much difference between the needs of the wolf and the needs of the bear.”

Bears have a much greater reliance on non-meat foods than wolves. 80% – 90% of a bear’s diet (I checked for Grizzly Bears and Black Bears) consists of vegetation. That is a great contrast to the 1% of consumed by wolves when prey is plentiful – I think this indicates wolves only seek out food other than prey when they are starving and can’t get a kill (http://www.thewholedog.org/feedingsarf.html).

My argument is that due to the fact that plant matter is consumed in such minimal quantities by wolves it is not a valid justification for classifying wolves as omnivores. As was pointed out before, some strict “herbivores” will seek out meat if they are starving or have a deficiency, this does not make them omnivores.

My GSD’s do like to eat fresh blackberries and strawberries as well as pink clover. They grow wild out in the back half of their yard. I know it isn’t from hunger because there is always some food in their dishes. They eat until they’re full and then they may munch a bit here and there. So I would say they are opportunists when it comes to food. Meat, Meat, Meat, and sweets for desert.

Well maybe not miracle grow!

Feathers (and hair) have been shown to have a similar effect to fiber in the wolves diet (obviously wolves don’t get a large amount of fiber in their diets due to the fact that they don’t consume grains and only consume vegetation in very small amounts). It’s also been suggested that the small amounts of soil present on the meat from eating it on the ground provide trace nutrients. I’m not sure how true the soil things is but it certainly is a difference amount how wolves eat and how domestic dogs are able to eat.

Hi Aimee….

I’m not saying that I agree with you , cause I dont
but I must say, you are good at constructing a persuasive argument , props to you.  

Don’t you think it is unfair that you agree rabbits and deer should remain classified as herbivores despite the fact that they will occasionally eat meat but at the same time try to argue that candids should be classified as omnivores because they occasionally eat certain grasses or berries? It’s fine if you want to say candids are omnivores, but then you should start to refer to deer and rabbits as omnivores also.

I think the simple fact you remain oblivious to that severely limits your argument is that commercial dog feeds that contains ingredients that are not biologically appropriate for dogs were not created to provide dogs with a more biologically appropriate and healthier way of eating, it was created to provide owners with a cheaper and more convenient way of feeding them! Just because we force feed dogs grain-based foods does not change the fact that dogs are traditionally carnivores. For example, I’m going to assume you would not make an argument against the classification of cows as herbivores? Cows being raised for slaughter are frequently fed feed containing animal by-products. Because humans feed these herbivores feed laden with animal matter and the cows survive does this change the fact that cows are technically herbivores and they they are healthier when eating  a herbivorous diet? No. I think what can be concluded is that people feed animals to better suit our needs, not the needs of the animals.

What I will agree with you on is that is would be very impractical if not impossible for most owners to provide a dog with a complete and balanced diet consisting of only meat (without the addition of synthetic vitamins and minerals). However, this is not due to the fact that dogs are not meant to subside on a diet like this but because we don’t have whole, wild prey animals at our dispense. I don’t feed my dogs only meat, I add 1/4 C. lightly steamed pureed vegetables (and occasionally fruits) and 1 tsp. of a super green (such as kelp, alfalfa, or spirulina) and fish oil due to the fact that I understand that 1) commercially raised meats are lower in vitamins, minerals, and healthy fats than wild prey animals; 2) that the dog is unable to be provided with much of the animal they would consume in the wild (hide, feathers, various glands, stomach contents (in the instance of small prey), and organs that are harder to obtain; 3) due to the fact that most people feed their dogs out of bowls the dogs are missing out on trace nutrients that their wild counterparts would consume by eating  their prey of the ground (they inevitably consume small amounts of soil and other matter providing valuable trace nutrients).

Ultimately, I believe it is not only ignorant of people but also unfair to the animal to force them to consume a diet as unnatural as most commercial foods. Also, it is unfair for people to assume dogs are omnivores because we force feed them commercial foods and they survive. As was demonstrated in the case of the rabbit, deer, and cow – there are so many exceptions to the rules of classification when it comes to herbivores, omnivores, and carnivores. I believe that the attempt to classify candids as omnivores is used by some as a means of justifying the unnatural diets we force them to consume. If it makes you feel better about feeding grain-based foods by telling yourself a dog is an omnivore, that’s fine – but I choose to recognize my dog’s natural carnivorous bias and feed them as closely to their natural diet as possible. Just because a dog can adapt to grain-laden foods doesn’t make them any more appropriate.

Whether or not a dog is an omnivore or a carnivore is debatable and there is evidence in support of both sides – however there is definitely stronger evidence supporting that they are scavenger-like carnivores. I admit dogs can subside on a non-meat diet, I’ve seen it done – but I don’t think it’s the best thing. I could probably survive eating only meat (with a vitamin) or only vegetation (with a vitamin) but that doesn’t mean it would be the best thing for me. Also, just because a carnivore will consume some plant matter on their own doesn’t classify them as omnivores. If a wolf or some type of wild cat has a dietary imbalance they will self treat in the wild by consuming certain grasses or herbs but this doesn’t miraculously make them omnivores. Take rabbits for example, I don’t think anyone would argue that rabbits are herbivores. However, after rabbits give birth they lose certain nutrients (mainly iron) and need to either consume meat or eat some of their young to replenish what was lost in the birthing process. My family bred rabbits when I was younger and the rabbits got a pound of hamburger after they gave birth. Does this mean rabbits are omnivores? No – it means that when the need arises for a certain nutrient that can’t be derived in a large enough quantity from their plant based diet they will temporarily change their eating habits to satisfy their nutrient needs. No doubt if a dog isn’t offered meat it will eat other foods and it will survive on these other foods, but that doesn’t change the fact that a dog is, by nature, a carnivore. The key is that dogs are adaptable, they are not omnivores by nature. When humans came up with the wonderful idea to begin manufacturing carbohydrate-based pelleted meal replacements for dogs that didn’t change the fact that dogs were born to subside on a carnivorous diet or that a carnivorous diet is what is best for them, it just forced them to adapt. Also, as you know, on the back of any “omnivorous” commercial food there is a long list a artificial vitamins added – these vitamins are necessary to compensate for the nutritional imbalances that would result from feeding dogs a food so far removed from their natural diet. And you stated that dogs are classified as omnivores – that would be false. Whether or not a dog is classified as an omnivore or carnivore would depend on what source you are using. Here is a study done by a DVM, PhD and published in the “Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association.” Through the stomach analysis of various feral candids (wolves, coyotes, etc.) it was concluded that “From these many studies into the food habits of feral CARNIVORES, if may be concluded that the staple diet of CARNIVORES living in a natural setting includes other animals, carrion, and OCCASIONALLY fruits and grasses….An understanding of the food habits of feral CARNIVORES should influence the diets and feeding practices we impose upon domestic CARNIVORES.”

http://naturalpetproductions.net/articles/npp.foodhabits.feral.carnivores.pdf

Cats eat grass but they are still classified as “obligate” carnivores.  They actually sell “cat grass” in stores.  Most raw food commercial diets for cats include very small amounts of vegetables too. 

Dogs are “opportunistic” carnivores.  They prefer and thrive on animal flesh but can survive on other foods.

It is well established (in Waltham etc) that dogs not not “require” carbohydrates.  Hound dog mom is right, if you hand a dog a carrot, they are not able to properly digest it unless it has been processed (by you or the animal the dog is consuming).  No problem digesting meat however.

 Sorry – it does not explain why for instance greyhounds are often fed exclusively bread and milk in Ireland for the first year and can live illness free for up to 16 years – Nor the fact I know three dogs who have been totally  vegetarian from adoption and are illness free at over 10.

My dogs certainly have a omnivorous diet by choice and are certainly healthy according to vets. They enjoy the various vegetables so not exclusively carnivorous – which makes them omnivores.

 But surely it doesn’t mean they are not Omnivores either?  My dogs willingly eat all sorts of vegetables – either cooked or raw – and – they graze not just grass but other plants too – Grass by the way contains Omega 3 oil

I just wanted to point out that many articles published by the USDA say they are carnivores (from the Order Carnivora) that evolved into omnivores. 
http://openagricola.nal.usda.gov/Record/IND20480995

My dogs certainly like vegetables and dogs unlike cats, can survive without meat. I agree they do have an affinity to meat and this by definition of omnivore precludes them from this class. An omnivore definition is “eating food of both animal and vegetable origin, or any type of food indiscriminately” according to my friend Mr. Webster.

If you define carnivore to be “any placental mammal of the order Carnivora” as Mr. Webster does, dogs are undoubtedly carnivores.

But it is no wonder people are confused on this as the experts can’t even agree.

Really people!! It’s also a known fact that wolves in the wild ate wild barley grass for the chlorophyll. That’s why dogs today eat grass in the yard. It’s not really to make them throw up, but it does because its not the grass they crave. If your dog is on a holistic food they won’t do this. As a pet nutrishtionist I know dogs have evolved and yes they need to eat like omnivores. Stay away from fillers like corn. This is a starch and will cause allergies and cause tarter on teeth. Meat and protein is most important since a dog is mainly muscle but remember a lot of the animals a wolf might eat are either herbivores or omnivores therefore they get the vitamins and minerals they need

Cats are obligate carnivores, that’s a known fact. They eat grass and greens for various reasons, but it does not in any way make up a major portion of their diet. 
http://www.petmd.com/cat/wellness/evr_ct_eating_grass#.T1VAA4evKSo

 dogs should be kept as pets……..

Hi LabsRawesome,

Oops. Sorry that one got by me.

Spammers like the one identified here as “Monika” are experts at tricking moderators.

Spammers know we don’t have the time to read every article in its entirety. So, they deceptively place the tree frog at the top of the post and then hide the inappropriate garbage “below the fold”.

Flagging a comment for moderation is a great new feature that allows readers to call spam posts to my attention. But I’m just now learning how to follow up on flagged comments.

Thanks for alerting me about this one.

Dr. Mike, when you click on Monika Mehra’s name in the post that is like 10 posts down from this one. It starts with info on Red eyed tree frogs, but as you scroll further down the page their are a bunch of topless pics of women. FYI, thought you might want to remove that post.

*cooking is fine but BONES shall NEVER BE COOKED! Just wanted to add that in case anybody gets confused. Cooked bones can scrape, puncture, or block the intestines. Dogs are supposed to eat RAW meats. I have been feeding my two girls RAW meats (variety like you listed above) and I NEVER cook anything. I do give them a good rinse though and my dogs quit shedding, no more dry skin, ect. Regardless of what some people choose to believe, dogs do NOT become aggressive from RAW feeding.

It really astounds me. I so enjoy these posts talking of wild animals eating greens and plants. How that then translates into dogs being omnivores. Simply because they can survive on it does NOT mean its part of a natural diet. I think maybe education and study (I wonder where the money trail for funding leads.) are getting in the way of using some simple critical thinking tactics.

I think you know what cattle in feedlots survive on. Grain…fecal matter…hormones…ground chicken feathers…ect. Very little grass. They do survive…but do you really think they should be eating that?

Have you also noticed how many fat dogs there are these days? How many fat wild dogs do you see?

Also..to follow that line of thought…think of biology. Starches and sugars contain heaps of calories…energy. An animal does not have the ability to investigate the source of this energy…but their instinct is to devour it in times of need…then they realize that food gives them lots of energy (unfortunately it also gives them medical conditions and overweight frames). How many potatoes do you think wild animals can find let alone consume? remember…Dogs are domesticated wolves…their digestive systems have been forced to adjust to the unhealthy manner in which we feed them..and still food sensitives are on the incline. Why do you think the grain free and all natural foods are being purchased more than ever? People don’t want to spend more money…they simply realize as good stewards they should.

Even human beings fall into this pit. McDonalds would not be so profitable or popular if we did not have the biological urge to gorge on massive calories when it is available.

grains, starches and unnecessary food items are put into dog food to make it cheaper. I worked on a farm for a year…the guard dog was fed only raw meat…nothing else. The dog was around eight years old and still as active as a puppy. It was alert and watchful…a beautiful coat and strong healthy teeth.

so to sum this all up. I can take a heap of money…toss it at a laboratory and ask them to find me results I can use to prove my point. True neutral investigative studies are quickly becoming extinct due to profitable interests. Use your head…watch nature and realize that human civilization has a habit of following biological urges blindly, using technology and then trying to pretend its “scientific”.

Well if anyone’s interested, I thought I’d share that I attempted to give my dogs a fresh raw whole fish (snapper, head and all) each yesterday night and they were uncertain of eating it or how to eat it. After 5 minutes (As I knew that the ’15 minute take the bowl away’ method was useless in this case) I removed the fish and placed in a clean bag and back in the fridge. I then decided as a tactic, to fast them (Even though their weekly fasting routine I imposed on them had already been done last weekend), over the next 24 hours and then re-issue them the fish.

This was now last night (A few hours ago) after their walk, and this time, they appeared more interested in the fish and gave same, a tentative try. They had sniffed it and appeared as though they were seizing exactly how to go about eating them. I then gave each a little encouragement by putting my thumb in between the fish stomach slit and peeling it a little back to expose the internal fish flesh for extra enticing. This worked a little and my JRT started dragging her snapper away and getting a better grasp of it to eat it more efficiently at a slower pace. As for my TT, he kept looking at his snapper and couldn’t get the hint with the peeling back tactic. He just kept circling the fish as if being so unsure as to how he’ll go about eating it.

During at which time, my JRT had finished about a quarter of her snapper including half of the head (Which is fantastically extra nutritious and DHA potent) which was an encouraging sign.

I became frustrated at my TT’s inability to work out how to eat his fish, that I removed it and placed it back in the fridge. I then noticed after a few minutes that he went for the 3 quarter remains of the JRT’s unfinished fish, and began to actually eat it. I then decided to place the other fish I’d put back in the fridge, outside again and do some further observing.

After a few more minutes, both dogs had another go at eating the fish, and played turns at each others. Then their pack mentality kicked in and both had a tussle over one of them for a short time. Some more of the fish was eaten and I decided that it wasn’t worth putting any of the remains back in the fridge. So I left the the fish remains out, in case they want to go back and eat some more. Unlike not leaving a bowl of food out after 15 minutes, I figured it may take more time in their opportunistic sight and smell range, for the fish to be left out for quite a while, and especially since this new raw item was now going to be a weekly feeding event, as suggested in Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s books.

Thanks to Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s books, I would not have thought about introducing a whole fresh and complete fish to my dogs’ dietary rotation to add to their already range of raw meaty bones and raw meaty parts, offal and etc of various animal sources.

It’s worth noting a peculiar anomaly in my TT’s natural eating habit/method….Unlike my JRT and most dogs, and their ancestors, the wolf, my TT doesn’t seem to like to place a grasp of any of his raw animal prey model offerings, with his paws, for greater ease of keeping the food still so that he can more easily tear pieces off. It’s almost like he feels the ‘yuck factor’ of the wetness/moisture on his paws if he does this. I also notice that he takes extra care than normal not to trample on old stools and muddy ground/soil, especially after rain fall. Perhaps he was a human being in his previous life? lol

Below is pasted a copy of my recent comment under the ‘Suggested Raw Dog Food’ thread, as it seems like a hit and miss for it to appear under that thread at the moment, for some reason.

” Well, I just want to say that yesterday, I had the honour of meeting Dr. Tom Lonsdale in person for the first time, as I dropped by his vet clinic to buy his 2 books, ‘Raw Meaty Bones’, and ‘Work Wonders’. A lot of great reading ahead!

We talked for over a half an hour as I dropped by about 40 minutes before he closed for the day. We chatted about his history in brief and of his battles against the pet food industry establishment. I brought up Dr. Billinghurst and told him of my recent unpleasant encounter, and that I am reading his books and believe in the BARF philosophy.

He told me of how they used to talk and that Dr. Billinghurst was really influenced by him and Pitcairn and that Dr. B, stole some of his ideas, and that Dr. B wanted to use the term, raw meaty bones as a trade mark but couldn’t because it was Tom’s. And so he came up with BARF of which Tom had some unpleasantries to disclose on the history behind that.

Anyway, I could go on, but he explained to me his thoughts and beliefs that dogs don’t need carbs (Something I agree with but that I think they could do with as per the BARF carb amount principle). He went on to say that wild dogs will eat tripe from larger animals but agrees that based on scientific studies he references in his books, that they don’t necessarily eat the contents, but do with smaller prey, etc.

He said that when he and Dr. B talked, that Dr. B wanted to break away and just make money etc.

I think there’s 2 sides to a story and I can tell their bitterness remains.

Dr. Lonsdale affirms that dogs can eat raw meaty bones and carcasses, and offal, once a day as their sole diet, as their truly sufficient, medicinal and natural diet.

There’s a little more to it, and I find that despite their bitterness they are both right with differences of opinion.

I mentioned how I bought Dr. Barbara Fougere’s book but discovered later, that she used to be a Mars representative and filed complaints against and criticised Dr. Lonsdale officially during her Mars days back in 1994.

Anyway, I could go on, but I’ll stop here, and just conclude that our meeting was interesting and I find the whole thing fascinating!

I don,t like dogs,

We own 7 dogs, of which two are Newfoundlands, two are GSD’s and three are cocker spaniels, we feed all three just raw meat and bone, with the occasional fish and egg. We do this to try to balance what they would eat in the wild. We did not always do this, we did use commercial foods (4% meat derivatives etc.) but had bad digestion problems with some of the dogs no matter what we tried and our Newfoundland male had started to limp and you could hear his hips clunk when he walked. We got a GSD pup who was weaned from mother to meat and the breeder asked if we would at least give the raw diet a go. We did and were so impressed we moved all the dogs onto it. Now all the dogs are healthy and no digestion problems at all. The main success is our 15 stone Newfoundland boy ‘Kitten’ who now moves with the ease of a young dog, he runs around and can even leave the ground when chasing for a toy, no clunks, nothing. I am so happy as we love our dogs and this has proven to us that raw meat and bone is best. If dogs were to eat cereal and fruit, why would they hunt? If they could take the easy option why not find an orchard and crop field and take it easy.
If dogs are carnivores but can survive on man made, moulded cereal flavoured with fats and it is so good for them, why don’t the keepers at zoo’s make life easy for themselves and feed the big carnivores cheap kibble ‘as seen on tv’?
We have 7 very strong and healthy dogs, who have not seen a vet in years, it would take a very good argument to convince me to change their diet.

Uhm, Dayron, she does not appear to be talking about YOU, but rather some link that she followed, lol.

Here we go again. Dogs are carnivores. Putting dogs, panda’s and bears in the same boat is ridiculous. Panda’s and dogs have different digestive tracts. One is a fool to think a dog doesn’t need a considerable portion of meat protien in its diet. Even Natura Pet understands that. Oh, they make Inova and Evo. They were the first to start putting higher meat contents in their foods 12 years ago. They understood the needs of a dog. Now look what Natura started. Having said all of that, now if a cat can’t break down and absorb plant matter, why is it that so many good pet foods put good grains and plant matter in their foods nad they do well.? This really is simple science. The cat and the dog eat the same thing in the wild. Nothing has changed. Dogs however are better able to break down plant matter in their systems vs cats. Not by a large margine. I try to make this simple and short and leave room for thought. Ms. Aimee, Take your red flags and put them in your ears. No one told you to come on here and be an English Major or teacher. Now if U are getting paid for it, do your job well. If not, piss off. As long as our points are well understood, thats all that matters. Please, become a road scholar and get a multimillion dollar bank account. Until then, shut your piehole. Even if you do all those things, get paid for it because that is what matters. It’s good to be proper, but if I’m in a hurry most of the time and it’s of real profit or work related, who cares? I still say mother nature know’s best and that a dog is nothing more than a domesticated wolf. Feed it like so. Oh, for dogs who eat vegitarian diets, in la mens terms; they are messed up.

I’ll jump in here. I fall into the dogs are omnivores camp. While anatomy gives us a lot of clues as to diet, there are exceptions to “the rules” as Mother Nature is very adaptable. The Giant Panda anatomically resembles a carnivore but eats a natural diet of bamboo. But I always thought that it was the physiology of the dog that landed them into the omnivore class. Specifically, their ability to down regulate the enzyme pathways involved in gluconeogenesis which allows them to compensate for eating a low protein diet if they have to. (Cats can’t do this very well if at all. This is why the protein requirement of the cat is higher than the dog.) Also a dog’s nutritional requirements reflect an ability to meet nutritional needs without requiring animal based tissue from the diet whereas cats, true carnivores can not.

Warning: I’m opening a can of worms here! As I read the linked articles red flags went up. Based on the errors in content, incorrect English, and in my view lack of proper citations I guessed that either the authors’ degrees were not in science or they weren’t what I’d consider legitimate degrees. So I checked. The authors “Doctorates” are from on online “school” where you pay around 6,000 for your degree program. It sounds like a nice school as you can get credit for life experience and you don’t have to take any tests because they know some people have test anxiety (except for an open book non proctored final for each class). It appears that as long as you fill out the worksheets fthey send you in a timely manner and write 3 approx. 10 page papers you “graduate” Hmmm…

Huh, you walk your dog late, like me, Shameless, lol. Not always, but I often walk my dogs late at night, before starting my shift.

Dayron – Your civil and mature comment with great wisdom is greatly appreciated. What a nice man and friendly debater.

Let me know when your secret contract is over, so I can be privy to your scientific results? I’m very impressed with your language and discourses and it really shows how scientific and professional you actually are. It’s always refreshing.

None of it changes my personal opinion. That’s the beauty of my own independent mind that Nature gave me, as it has with all of us. We and bears are ‘true omnivores’. Cats are obligate carnivores’ whilst also ‘minute’ omnivores. Dogs are omnivores….neither ‘true’ or ‘obligate’, but are certainly carnivorously biased. There are many an expert on the subject that advocate they’re carnivores, and about the same in number, that advocate they’re omnivores. I believe both. I’m unmoved on my own opinion, no matter what is said on here. But debating is fun and let’s keep it fun, instead of aggravated.

Shameless, great video. Sounds like my neighbor’s huskies. lol

I checked my our department’s solicitor (lawyer) for kicks. And anyway, I explained why the question etc etc, and he stated as I thought. Officially, a court of law, if such was hypothetically argued, would find that the dog is an omnivore in the strict definition of the word.

I rest my case. Get it? Case….solicitor….court of law, lol. I know, that was pretty lame.

Hi Gordon, you are very much the clever one. I’m under contract right now and really have said and done too much on this site. None the less, you read and see my findings all of the time. I must not put anything on this site. Its just not that important to me to risk getting in trouble.

Ok folks, Im back. I’m trying to reajust myself. Gordon? I wonder about you sometimes. But yes, we are ever learning, but never coming into the truth of the knowledge it seems. Just let nature teach some things through biological process. Being who I am I try to simplify most things. I make it simple for the common person. They don’t need to have my education, schooling, study, time, travel, field work, experience, or associations. They simply need basic foundation and understanding which will take one a long way. Past, present and progressive biology. Do it God’s/natures way and feed a carnivore a carnivorous diet. The dog that is. Where is it that people think cats don’t Scavenge? I’ve seen lions, tigers, bobcats, lynx and panthers do it plenty of times. By the way, feral cats come and do it on my rance all the time. They eat the scraps, tear up the trash and eat it and one time a dead lamb. My border collie killed 3 of those cats when she caught them for some reason. Don’t get caught up in the hype and propaganda. Dogs in the wild only eat their prey’s gut 10% of the time. Wild cats do it 97% of the time. Let me say this. I went to Michigan and Chattanooga to check out some English Shepherd pups, the woman in Tenn was feeding her dogs Proplan. Her pups looked fine. Well, the old farmer in northern Michigan feeds his dogs raw meat, raw eggs with the shell , flax oil and some seaweeds. Guess what his pups and dogs looked fine, but it looked like I was looking at them in HD. But, I didnt know what he was feeding them until I asked him when he took my down payment. So guess what? I’m going back over to Michigan to get a English Shepherd pup. The reason he went to this type of diet is because the great granfather of thos pups developed a grain intolerance along with cancer of some sort. Famer Jakes swiched over all his dogs at the time until now. They look great and the old Dog’s cancer went in to remission at age 6. 10 and a half years later he’s still thriving. He fed his carnivore a carnivorous diet. In all of my career; that case is one of the best. I’m tired. Good Nite,

Jonathan – Have a read of what I say about Dr. Syme’s statement under TOTW. I don’t fully agree with everything he says, but I quoted the 2 paragraphs of his above to make the point that I believe that dogs are omnivores more so, over carnivores. Although, I believe they can be also labeled as ‘carnivores’ Both labels suffice. However the term ‘obligate carnivore’ is entirely the cat’s description and not the dog’s.

And so re his grains’ theory, I too, am very skeptical, and one of my questions to him, would be, what grains does he think are found by the scavenger, in the stomachs of the herbivorous preys? Raw cereal grains? In the wild, I would hardly think so, but to this day, I am a believer in an open mind and one of that realises, we still learn till the day we die.

Anyway, I’m off, and remember boys and girls….A raw meaty bone a day, keeps the Vet away!

Dayron – The following link, I was about to post under the currently interesting grain debate occurring under ‘TOTW’ thread, but I refreshed up on it and it reminded me on yet another expert opinion that dogs are omnivores. It is from another well renown Australian Vet, Dr. Bruce Syme. He has a number of interesting articles including reference to the famous Dr. Pottenger M.D. cat study, between 1932 and 1942.

http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=82

A couple of his quotes from the page in the above link…..

“Dogs are considered omnivores, not obligate carnivores (unlike cats). This means that they are able to survive on a diet that does not contain meat. The most basic indication here being that they can survive on a diet of plant based material….grains, fruit, vegetable matter etc. It simply stands to reason that if an animal can survive like this, then their bodies must be fully equipped to digest and process these types of food groups.”

“Cats are true carnivores, which means they must eat meat to survive. They are not scavengers like dogs, and will only eat fresh prey. They do eat the gut content of their prey (grains and all), like dogs, and do consume small amounts of fresh green plant material, but in general, their diet is much higher in fresh meat content. Grain material would make up only 10-15 % of their diet.”

Dayron-

Your typing is just fine, lol.

We “rural NY’ers” have learned to live in harmony with nature for the most part. From time to time, packs of coyote and coydogs do become killing machines, and then they are hunted. However, one can not make a blanket statement and tell me they (coy and coyote) should be killed, and yet, you seek to release a new, larger predator in my back yard. Coy, coyote or wolf, if its attempting to bring down one of my pet livestock, I have a shotgun that says it would only happen once, lol.

Adirondack Park is one of NY’s biggest recreation areas. Lots of campers, hikers etc, and it abuts a vast agricultural area as well. I can see opposition from the farmers due to potential livestock loss, and from the uninformed “weekend nature warriors”. However, my personal opinion is that the bear are a bigger risk to outdoor recreation than wolves would be. We also have bear and miracle of miracles(said sarcastically) since we are smart enough to not leave trash out, they run through our property to raid the neighbors, then race back through to their den-one the neighboring acreage which is also undeveloped.

Young coydogs/coyotes are not that smart. One actually came up into the yard very early morning and was “thinking” of eating a neighborhood elderly cat. Thankfully he paused long enough to give me time to race out of my kitchen armed with the kitchen broom-so intent on the kitty, that he did not notice me there until he felt the “thwack” of the broom. Another time I was bottle feeding a baby goat and one came up, within 10 ft of me-he got beamed in the head with the baby bottle, lol. My point being that often people associate ‘carnivore” with a man eating, flesh ripping beast and hence why I think most people would prefer not to envision their dog as a carnivore, but rather an omnivore.