[shelties mom]

pugmomsandy:

I’m interested in using Dr. Becker’s recipes, do you follow her supplement recomendation? Which green & glandular supplements do you use? I prefer to use whole food supplements.

[awatson48169]

Hi! We have an eight year old greyhound. He’s been eating Taste of the Wild Salmon and loves it. We’re happy with it too because it seems like to has good nutritional value for the price.

Recently, he’s been having some issues with digestion. The vet recommended putting him on Hill’s Prescription Diet, but before we switch to that we’ve started adding a fiber supplement to his food:

Ingredients: Organic Maitake, Organic Shitake, Organic Lion’s Mane, Organic Beech, Organic Turkey Tail, Organic Oyster, Vitamins B1, B12, C + D; Polysaccharides, Triterpenes, Natural Enzymes, Prebiotics, Dietary Fiber

Does anyone have any thoughts on this supplement? It’s made in the USA and it seems like others are getting good results, but we’re curious if anyone has any insight into the ingredients. Also, if you have any other fiber supplements you use, we’d like to hear about them.

Thanks!

[Toxed2loss]

Hey Labman,
You didn’t say what you were feeding, in your post above. Not sure if you’ve posted that somewhere else on the site, but it is important. Your dog’s food is the foundation of her health.

Back before I knew better, I fed really bad dog food to my beloved pointer cross, Morgan. Ol’ Roy, I’m ashamed to say. I was just flat out ignorant!! When she was 12 she slept most of the time, she barely moved, just like yours. Well, my husband decided he needed a new bird dog, so he went out and bought a highly trained purebred, 3 yr old field registered pointer. The owner had health issues and he made it a condition of the sale to feed “high quality” food. Well, he knew more than us, but not as much as he should of, too. He was feeding Iams lamb & rice. A whole lot better than Ol’ Roy!!! So we put both dogs on the better food. Dang!!!! But after a few weeks that dog got up one day and followed my husband 1/4 mile out to the back fence. He turned around and saw her there, wagging her tail and was so worried he carried her (60 lbs) in his arms all the way back to the house. She was lively and healthier for 2-3 more years.

Fast forward to what I know now, feeding your dog THE BEST nutrition makes all the difference! (That’s not Iams!) its balanced raw. If you don’t want to, or can’t, feed raw, then a 5 star meat based kibble. Brother’s Complete is my best pick of kibbles. Hound Dog Mom has posted a lot of recipes and information on raw feeding under that thread, and I’d encourage you to check it out if raw is the way you’d like to go. Shawna is the best resource for nutritional information. Mike P & JohnandChristo rock for feeding kibble plus toppers! Dogs should be living 20-30 years. They were 80 years ago. But that was when they weren’t being feed corn & wheat based dog food. They also weren’t routinely exposed to toxins from flea & tick pesticides, worm pesticides, heavy metals poisoning in vaccines and being over vaccinated… Reducing the environmental toxins will improve your pups health, too! Supplements are just supplements. They can help a little, but they work best synergistically with optimal nutrition.

[weimlove]

Sandy,
I found a couple of good sights for freeze dried tripe, one of them is http://www.bellaspainrelief.com/ and the other is http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/ On both of these sites have freeze dried tripe. You can get 5 oz for about $9.00, which isnt too bad. To ship to Fl it is about 13.00 which is ok as well. Until I can find some local tripe, I will probably order some of the freeze dried. I will probably just add a couple of pieces to maybe one meal a day. I’ve found a great butcher for meat, bones, and organs, but I will definintly look for a mexican or asain market. I think theres one in my town, I will just have to look up the address. Yeah, we have one more week left of his Acana kibble food, then we will be transitioning to raw. I cant wait, it will be cheaper plus so much better for my weimaraner. It’s a little confusing/overwhelming at first trying to figure out the ratios and which supplements and veggies to give, but im sure once I get started it will be easy!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lab man –

I’m so sorry to hear about your dog, it’s not fun watching your best friend be in pain. I’m a little confused about your post though – you say she’s old and can’t stand on three legs, but that she doesn’t have hip dysplasia and isn’t in pain? I’m going to assume you made a typo and are looking for a joint supplement, otherwise I’m not really sure what you’re looking for.

For a senior dog experiencing arthritis I would recommend a supplement to maintain and rebuild the joints, a pain reliever and an anti-inflammatory.

I think Wysong has the most well-rounded joint supplements I’ve seen. Their “Joint Complex” has a blend of proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans that will help to maintain joints, cartilage, tendons and connective tissue. Their “Arthegic” has several ingredients designed to moderate inflammation and pain including: boswellia serata, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. I have used both supplements myself and also on occasion for my senior dog. Personally if one of my dogs was experiencing severe arthritis issues I would put it on these two supplements or find other supplements with similar ingredients. Natural anti-inflammatories are a much safer option than steroids and NSAIDS that vets frequently prescribe – imo. They can be purchased here: http://www.wysonghealth.net/nsf-health-supplements.php.

I feel it would also be a good idea to start to give your dog a fish oil capsule every day – the omega 3’s in fish oil have an anti-inflammatory effect and the fish oil is a rich source of dha which senior dogs have difficulty producing.

[InkedMarie]

There is a semi local (in state but not around me) breeder of Dogues who also sells raw. Prey model raw people can buy their stuff but she also makes her own pre made. I think you have to just add supplements. I am going to seriously look into this because there is a good chance we will be adopting a sheltie very soon, going to meet two of them tomorrow at the foster home. I’d love to have all on raw but cannot afford to do so with Darwins.

[Anonymous]

One other side effect of Pepcid AC is that the dog stops throwing up randomly all over your house, too. I love my dogs very, very, very much, which is why I spend well over $100/month on 4.5 to 5 star recommended dog food and treats and chinese herbs and other natural supplements/products and also why I went to the vet as the last resort after trying numerous natural ways for almost two weeks including diet change. She has no side effects and I’m actually weaning her off of them (she is supposed to get 2 a day) after having given them to her for the past 3 days to see if the issue has been resolved. I’m 100% for all natural treatments for my pets, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go the regular vet route so your pet (and sometimes you) can stop suffering. I really wish there was a holistic vet close that I could go to, but since there isn’t and although there are things I don’t like about this vet’s office and her staff, she has been excellent in diagnosing and treating different odd things I’ve brought in, so I do trust her, just not the meds so much that she prescribes. I actually have the Mercola’s digestive enzymes, so why I didn’t think to try that is odd, but my sleep schedule and stress levels have been off the charts lately, so maybe that’s why. I’m going to try it, though, as the next step the vet wanted to do was a thyroid test which costs $80.

[billhill]

I have a question about supplementing dry kibble. I’ve begun to supplement kibble, alternating things such as hardboiled eggs + greenbeans, canned kirkland cuts in gravy, canned unsalted sardines, etc. I understand the point that variation and addition of high quality protein are good. This also makes my puppies happy (2 yr old corgie/lab, 2 yr old beagle/walker hound).

In the 1970’s and 80’s, I learned about the phenomenon of protein “complementarity” in human diets, i.e. protein supplements and combinations from different sources (EXAMPLES: beans and rice in Mexican cuisine, rice and lentils in Indian cuisine). If a specific amino acid is low in one source, it can be balanced out by the proteins in another source. I’m no longer a strict vegetarian, but I can attest from personal experience that this works. I still love vegetarian food.

QUESTION 1: Does this work for dogs? Can adding eggs increase the benefit of other proteins in the doggie bowl?

QUESTION 2: Do dogs have a “preferential” metabolism that burns carbs before proteins? If so has inclusion of carbs been shown to reduce the benefit of proteins in the dogs’ diets?

QUESTION 3: How would I calculate the impact of adding dried egg white or canned sardines to the kibble of each of my roughly 30 lb dogs in terms of additional protein, protein as % weight. Each gets 1 cup of small bites kibble, twice a day.

Looking forward to informed opinions. Thanks.

Bill

[Hound Dog Mom]

The “fermentation” is just a method of creating the probiotics. If you’re supplementing with probiotics you don’t need a kibble with probiotics – I’d personally rather add my supplements separately rather than have then added so I can control the dose and I can pick the high quality supplements I want. If you continue the probiotics and enzymes after your dog is healthy, you certainly could continue to give them daily but I also think giving it a few times a week or daily in half the recommended dose would be fine for a healthy dog.

Happy new year to you too! And thanks, the dog in my picture is Gertie my 2 year old. 🙂

[crazy4cats]

Hi Hound Dog Mom-
Thanks again for your help. By the way, your dog is so cute with his hat on:) I will check in to suggested probiotics. I chose that one because it had all 3 in one. When feeding separately, I felt like I was giving more supplements than food! I’m glad you have heard of using DGL for dogs. I had never even heard of it, let alone for dogs. My next question is, if going to be giving probiotics long term, is it necessary to choose kibble that includes it? Also some kibble show fermented probiotics. Is this a better form of probiotics? Happy New Year!

[crazy4cats]

Hi All-
My dogs (lab/retriever mix) have been off and on antibiotics for the last year due to arriving with giardia. I had never even heard of it before. My first vet explained they would be carriers and never totally get rid of it after 3 treatments. After their next episode of green diarrhea, I went to new vet and he said that wasn’t true and we tried a stronger treatment of metronidazole and dewormer. He also suggested pre/probiotics, digestive enzymes and DGL. I was happy that he was trying something new. We have had 2 negative fecal tests so far. What a relief! He also recommended food change. I was using Kirkland. He liked raw best and suggested blue or nature’s variety. Wow! A vet that didn’t recommend science diet. So, anyway doing all of the above now. We have had a huge improvement in stools. Not perfect yet, but much better. I’m guessing after reading this website, it could take 6 months to totally recover from all the antibiotics they have taken and having parasites in their guts. My question is; is it safe to use these supplements long term? Will they become dependent on them? Also, wondering if anyone has heard of using DGL for dogs? Im using Vetri-probiotic BD right now. It has pre/pro and enzymes in it. I’m not sure about long term use.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I’ve seen the Pet Kelp supplements and they look like good supplements, however you definitely still need to add vitamin e. If you look at the nutrient analysis of the Pet Kelp product there is only 1.65 i.u. vitamin e per tablespoon. The AAFCO minimum requirement for vitamin e is 50 i.u. per kilogram of food and ideally your dog should be getting between 100 and 300 i.u. per day. I split 800 i.u. between my 3 dogs daily, so they all get about 266 i.u. each per day. The other thing to keep in mind is that you will be supplementing with fish oil (high levels of omega 3’s) and vitamin e is used to metabolize omega 3’s, so if you don’t supplement with high levels of vitamin e while supplementing with omega 3 rich fish oil the body’s stores of vitamin e will eventually be depleted and the dog will develop a vitamin e deficiency. If you decide to go with the Pet Kelp supplement I would recommend picking out 1 or 2 other whole food supplements with ingredients other than kelp (some that I like are Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier, Welly Tails Might Phytonutrients, Animal Essentials Organic Green Alternative, Aunt Jeni’s Enhance, etc.) and rotating to a new supplement every month or so, this way your dog can get some variety. I don’t believe flax is bad for healthy dogs, I occasionally give my dogs flax oil. There are positives and negatives to almost every food out there which is why rotating is key – if you rotate your dog is a lot less likely to suffer the negative consequences of any one ingredient because he won’t be exposed for long periods of time.

[theBCnut]

I can just throw in a pill and mine will eat it, but one of my whole food supplements also has alfalfa in it. I actually have horses too, so sometimes it’s a handful of alfalfa in the blender with other things as part of my homemade supplement. And at one point I was giving the dogs a horse joint supplement that is sprayed on alfalfa pellets.

[weimlove]

Sandy- thanks for posting that link, they have a lot of great supplements to add.

[oceandog]

Ok, I think I get it now. Of the proteins on those sites, I believe I can find Rabbit and fish treats, so they would be the best protein sources to choose, so he has treats too. Then after the trial of 2-3 months, add 1 and only 1 ingredient at a time and monitor.

I will look into the probiotic supplements as well. I did read the thread about detoxifying and I do understand the difficulties. I have celiac disease and am intolerant of dairy. So I have experienced the extreme discomfort these things cause. I avoid processed foods or pay the price. Short story.

As far as vaccines, I had Addisons dogs prior to Brody, so I didn’t vaccinate like most do. I do not plan on yearly vaccinations for Brody either. He has had his puppy shots and that is that. I suppose since he had had 1 shot already when I got him that could explain the chewing on his legs and feet.

For now, I will get in an order of rabbit or fish (so I can find treats) and give it some time and see what happens over the next few months. I do know my local pet store has some crunchy fish skin treats that he loves, so that maybe a good direction. Thank you again, I will keep updated with his progress.

He means the world to me, I lost my mother from cancer in July and 12 days later my Boston, Bosco. So Brody has literally put life in my life again. I want more than the best for him. His food budget is greater than my own!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

That’s great that you still feed your dog a meat based diet and are willing to feed raw even though you’re vegan, it must be tough to do! 🙂 While I completely respect vegetarians and vegans, I see too many that try to force their lifestyle on their dogs and cats and I personally don’t think it’s fair…

Hare-Today.com and Mypetcarnivore.com sell pre-ground mixes with muscle meat, bone and organs in the correct proportions – so you wouldn’t need to chop up any meat or anything, it comes looking just like a pre-made raw (it just doesn’t have the supplements or veggies). They have several novel protein sources. Hare Today sells goat, goose, llama, pheasant and quail and My Pet Carnivore sells alpaca, goat, muskrat and rabbit. I’d just recommend adding the supplements I listed in my previous post – vitamin e (a capsule for humans a couple times a week), fish oil (for omega 3’s), kelp & alfalfa (trace nutrients) and probiotics (to help strengthen his gut). I’d leave out any other ingredients and just keep it basic during the elimination trial so when you start re-introducing ingredients you can know what the issue is. Only feed one protein source and don’t give any treats.

[Devilbrad]

I’m pretty sure it at least has the fish oil. Thanks “mom”, I’ll look into those supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

That’s great that you found something she’ll eat! I bet it’s a lot healthier than dog food too. 🙂

If you find that the butcher doesn’t add any supplements (assuming the mix contains muscle meat, organ meat and bone) – I’d add a vitamin e supplement, fish oil for omega 3’s and a kelp/alfalfa blend.

[Devilbrad]

Well, I finally found something she will gobble up. A local butcher shop makes their own dog food from the cow and chicken leftovers (they alternate each week). It also has sweet potatos, carrots, peas, and some other veggies. 50/50 meat and veggies. $1.99/lb and Daisy won’t leave a single scrap. Don’t even have to clean her bowl anymore! LOL I now need to look into supplements, but I thought the butcher said they do add some. I’ll ask him next time I pick some up.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shawna –

This is one supplement I use with all 8 forms of vitamin e (I’m actually using this one at the moment):

http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-e-tocotrienol-complex-60-liquid-vegetarian-capsules/?NttSR=1

I’ve also used the NOW Gamme E Complex with mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-E/M012530.htm

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

If you check out my menus for my dogs on the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus” you’ll see how I utilize a pre-mix for breakfast three mornings per week. Just follow the directions the pre-mix package and use boneless meat. You could omit veggies and all supplements, but I would still add fish oil as most pre-mixes don’t have adequate omega 3’s in the mix. In the evening I just feed some RMB’s and a little muscle meat (like hearts or gizzards) and occasionally some livers.Remember the 80-10-10 ratio doesn’t have to be exact at every meal, just over the course of a week or so you want the dog’s overall diet to roughly equal 80-10-10. It’s called balance over time.

[Shawna]

In my opinion it is not the total amount of protein in a food but rather the quality of the protein (the bioavailibility — how much is used by the body and how much becomes waste (aka blood urea nitrogen)). Speaking as the owner of a dog born with kidney disease I know that high quality protein creates less nitrogen for her kidneys to have to filter (and thus less in the urine). And my dog with kidney disease actually eats a HIGH protein raw diet — ranging from 45 to 54% protein. In fact, I have 8 dogs all eating high quality kibble with raw and high protein canned toppers or exclusively high protein raw. I don’t have brown spots on my lawn — 8 dogs-high protein-no brown spots.

Additionally, they know that senior dogs actually need as much as 50% more protein than adult dogs as they are not as efficient at digesting their food.

I know you don’t want supplements but a trick used by those with dogs with kidney disease (and confirmed by science to work) is feeding probiotics and foods for those probiotics called prebiotics. This causes a “nitrogen trap” and routes some of the nitrogen in the blood through the colon instead of the kidneys. Gets pooped out instead of peed out.

[weimlove]

If I wanted to use a pre-mix for part of one of the two meals per day, and have the other meal with just raw meat, bones, organs, etc, how would that work? Would I still need to add supplements? And would I just add ground meat to the pre-mix, and then use the 80:10:10 and veggies for the other meal? Sorry, just trying to see all of my options.

[billdoe]

Currently feeding our two dogs (ages 5 1/2 and 6) a grain free diet rated at 24% protein. We are getting burn spots and I am considering switching to a lower protein (still high quality) brand that might help reduce burning by lowering nitrogen in the urine. Both dogs are in very good health, but are close to the age where we also want to consider moving to a senior formulation in conjunction with low protein (if available).

Any recommendations on brands or experience with this welcome.

PS – we do not want to go down the road of supplements. My research indicates no proof they work and no controlled scientific studies otherwise.

• This topic was modified 13 years, 3 months ago by billdoe.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Weimlove –

As long as your dog doesn’t have any issues with gluten, it’s probably fine. Most contain some sort of soy, rice or wheat derivative – it’s given in such a small quantity though that it shouldn’t cause any issues. The two vitamin e supplements I use most often – Vitacost Vitamin E and Tocotrienol Complex and NOW Advanced Gamma E Complex – both contain soy derivatives. I’m not a fan of soy, but they get such a small amount I don’t worry.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I completely agree with everything Shawna said. Basically those that feed prey model raw with the 80/10/10 ratio are feeding an approximation of a prey animal – rarely does the dog’s entire diet consist of actual whole prey animals. You need to consider everything your dog isn’t getting from a homemade diet. A dog in the wild would eat everything – fur, skin, sinew, glands, organs, marrow, bone, flesh, some of the stomach contents, fat, etc. etc. – there is so much of this that’s just not available (or not always available) for us to feed to our animals. You can feed, say, 1 lb. turkey Necks, 12 oz. ground beef and 1.5 oz. Liver and 1.5 oz. kidney and that would be “balanced” in terms of having an appropriate calcium to phosphorus ratio and adequate amounts of organ meat – but a whole prey animal doesn’t consist of only turkey neck, lean ground beef, liver and kidney – there’s a lot of other stuff in there that your dog is missing out on. The other thing to consider is that commercially raised meats generally have lower concentrations of nutrients than wild game and contain much higher levels of omega 6 fatty acids and much lower levels of omega 3 fatty acids. Adding veggies and supplements can help fill in these nutritional gaps in our modern interpretation of the dog’s “ancestral diet.”

[weimlove]

HDM-
Thankyou so much for making that for me, it helps so much!I went to the local butcher yesterday and found some great prices. He has boneless beef chicken and turkey for .50 cents a pound. He also has chicken necks and backs for .60 cents a pound. He also carries whole chickens, chicken leg quarters, and a variety of organs. He does carry venison, but it’s 6 dollars a pound so thats a bit too much to spend on a regular basis. I think I will be able to get all the meat on the menu from him, but I plan on trying to find other sources of meat as well. I also looked on hare today, and they had alot of great meat too for ok prices. There is also a supplement store in town that I can get the vitamin E and alfalfa kelp mix. I already add salmon oil to his food now, so I can just put that on his raw food as well. Yesterday I was reading about the prey model raw diet, and they kept emphasizing that dogs dont need supplements and veggies if they are being fed the 80:10:10. What are your thoughts on that?

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

It’s great that Shadow loved the raw fish – but be careful about which types of fish you feed raw. Salmon, trout and steelhead that are caught in the Pacific can carry “salmon poisoning.” If you want to feed any of these types of fish from this region they should be frozen for a least 2 weeks to kill the parasite.

I make my own wholefood multivitamin/mineral. I order my ingredients from starwest-botanicals.com. I mix equal parts: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen, turmeric and garlic powder. You can do this if you want or if you want to make it simpler you can just mix equal parts kelp and alfalfa and that should be plenty. I’d give a dog the size of yours about 1 1/2 tsp. per day. You’ll need to supplement with vitamin e, for a dog the size of yours I’d give 200 i.u. daily or 400 i.u. every other day. Any vitamin e for humans will do, but I order mine from vitacost – I use the “Vitamin E & Tocotrienol Complex” because it has all 4 tocopherols and all 4 tocotrienols (most vitamin e supplements just contain alpha tocopherol). For fish oil I’m currently using Iceland Pure Sardine & Anchovy blend and Carlson cod liver oil, but any quality fish oils will do (I like buying in liquid form so I can mix it in with the food, but you could certainly get capsules if your dog will eat them). This is optional, but I do give my dogs coconut oil every other day and a plant-based omega 3-6-9 on the opposite days as the coconut oil.

I’d love to make you a menu plan, but because I don’t know exactly which cuts of meat will be available to you it’ll be more like a “template”. I’ll give some options and just use what you can get. One of my dogs – Gertie – is an active 70 lb. 2 year old as well so I’ll give you measurements based on what I would feed her. Obviously metabolisms vary from dog to dog so if you find this is too much or too little food feel free to reduce or increase the amounts, just keep everything proportionate. I’m also not sure how many times a day you feed, but I’ll assume you feed two meals a day.

Breakfast:
-5 mornings per week feed 12 oz. boneless red muscle meat (beef, lamb, buffalo, etc. – can use lean ground, chunks, heart, tripe, or some combination of these). 2 mornings per week feed 6 oz. liver and 6 oz. of another organ or any combination of other organs (kidney, spleen, lungs, pancreas, brain, etc.)
-1/2 C. cooked & pureed vegetables (whichever vegetables you want, can add fruit a couple times per week).
-Optional: 1/4 C. cottage cheese, kefir, plain yogurt or goat’s milk (can do this every day or a few days a week)
-1 1/2 tsp. whole food supplement (like a kelp-alfalfa blend or my homemade blend)
-1 tsp. fish oil (alternate between a fish body oil and cod liver oil)
-Optional: 1/2 tsp. coconut oil or a plant-based omega oil (like flax or evening primrose)
-Once or twice a week: 1 tsp ground pumpkin seeds, pecans, almonds or sunflower seeds
-3/4 tsp. ground egg shell (cheap source of calcium, leave eggshells out to dry then put them through a coffee grinder the next day) or 600-750 mg. of a calcium supplement of your choice (if your butcher sells meat/bone grinds for large animals like beef you could certainly use these and omit the calcium, but most butchers don’t have the equipment to grind heavy bones, so the calcium will have to be added separately)
-200 i.u. vitamin e (or 400 i.u. every other day)

*You can feed this same meal for breakfast daily, just rotate in new protein sources, switch up the extras (cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts and seeds, etc.) and feed a variety of vegetables and fruits.

Dinner (I often alternate between these two dinners for my dogs):
-Chicken back or leg quarter
-8 oz. Gizzards or hearts or boneless chicken (ground or chunks)
-Whole egg with shell
OR
-2 Turkey necks (about 6 oz. each)
-8 oz. Turkey hearts or gizzards or boneless turkey (ground or chunks)

Remember the more variety you can feed the better! Feed as many different protein sources as you can, using as many types of organs as possible, different vegetables and different fats. Each meal doesn’t have to supply every possible vitamin and mineral your dog needs, but over time the diet should balance. So the more variety you can feed the wider variety of nutrients your dog will get.

[weimlove]

HDM-
I plan on switching completely to home made raw within the few weeks, I was wondering if you had the extra time, if you wouldnt mind making me up a one or two week menu plan so I can get a feel for what type and kind of meat, veggies, and supplements to purchase. If you dont have time, dont worry about it, but it seems like you are very passionate about feeding raw so I dont think you would mind. If you do decide to make a menu for me, keep in mind that Shadow is a 70 pound active two year old dog. Thank you so much!

[weimlove]

HDM-
i have talked to some local raw feeders, and they use a local butcher to get their meat. I plan on going up there tommorow to check out what they offer and the prices. I fed Shadow a peice of raw fish tonight to see if he would like it, and he gobbled it down! Yay! I think you are right about the pre-mix being pricey. I would be spending about 50 dollars a month just for the pre-mix. Thanks for all of your help. As far as supplements, where do you buy them from?

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

I would say that if you shop smart, homemade is without a doubt the cheapest route to go. I actually invested in some freezers – I bought one new and got two used off craig’s list – and order in bulk 300 lb. shipments. I get all my meat from a supplier that supplies grocery stores and restaurants, they’ll supply dog kennels too but have a 300 lb. minimum. For me it was worth it, my dog’s are large and eat a lot anyways so it really only takes me about 8 weeks to go through my 300 lb. order and the prices are so much cheaper than what I’d have to pay at the grocery store. If raw is something you really want to get into and continue it may be worth considering something like this – since you only have one dog you could even see if there’s someone else in your area interested in raw and you could go in on orders together to reach the minimum order quantity. I’m sure it’d be possible to find a wholesale distributor like this in most areas. Butchers are great too, if you can find an independently owned butcher (rather than a big chain grocery store) they’d probably be more willing to cater to your needs for certain cuts of meat as well – meaning you could probably get them to save things like kidneys, lungs, etc. etc. that usually get thrown out. Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore are two other great places to get supplies (they have very reasonable prices and shipping prices) – they sell whole ground animals and also hard to find items like certain organs and green tripe. In generally boneless meat costs a lot more than bone-in meat, which is what I think makes the pre-mixes pricey – you have to use all boneless meat then pay for the pre-mix on top of it. A final suggestion for keeping costs low would be that when you’re feeding boneless meat (you’ll have to feed some of course to balance out the phosphorus in the RMBs) go with things like gizzards, hearts and green tripe – I know these things sound a lot less desirable to a person but they’re quality protein for dogs and supply a lot more nutrients than things like boneless skinless chicken breast and extra lean ground beef and they’re way cheaper.

As for supplements to add, assuming you’re feeding a balanced mixture of 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bone I’d recommend adding vitamin e (200 i.u. or so a day or 400 i.u. every few days should be plenty for a dog the size of yours), greens (some variety of kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, etc. rotate if you want). I like to give cod liver oil every other day to ensure my dogs are getting enough vitamin d – use this sparingly though as most varieties have excessive levels of vitamin a, I use Carlson brand because it has the lowest amount of vitamin a and I give a sardine/anchovy oil blend on the opposite days that I give cod liver oil. Dairy is optional, I do find that it stretches out the food a bit though and cuts the cost and I like giving kefir a few times a week for probiotics. I think it’s beneficial to give ground nuts or seeds once or twice a week – every once in a while I just throw some pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds or pecans in the coffee grinder and give each dog about a tsp.

Concerning vegetables, many don’t feel that they’re necessary. Vegetables aren’t part of a dog’s natural diet and I do agree that as long as everything else I described above is provided that they probably aren’t necessary, but I do strongly feel that when they’re provided in small quantities they can be a beneficial addition to the dog’s diet. They provide a lot of antioxidants and with all the chemicals our dogs are exposed to in this day and age antioxidants can help the immune system a great deal. The important thing is that they need to be lightly cooked and pureed – dogs don’t produce the enzyme necessary to break down the cellulose in the cell walls of the plant matter, so cooking and pureeing in a sense “pre-digests” the veggies so that the dog can obtain the nutrients. I’d avoid any starchy vegetables (like potatoes and peas) and onion (toxic to dogs). Some of my favorites to use are are spinach, celery, carrots, kale, broccoli, collard greens, mustard greens, squash, pumpkin, etc. Fruit isn’t necessary either, but I think a small amount of berries or apple once or twice a week is healthy.

[weimlove]

HDM-
Over the past couple of days I have been reading alot of your menu plans. I am so impressed with the amount of knowledge you know about raw feeding. In your opinion, would it be cheaper to use THK preference and add ground meat, or simply go to the local butcher and buy my own meat, meat with bone, and organs? Right now I am spending atleast 80 dollars a month on a high quality kibble plus some wet food, so I am trying to stay in the price range (or hopefully lower!) If I do decide to make my own meals completely, I know I will need to add salmon oil,or something similar, plus vitamin e supplements. Is there any other supplements I will need to add? Also, is it necessary to add veggies, and if so what kind? Thanks for all of your help.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Weimlove,
I’m in the don’t vaccinate catagory. My 16 yr old Pom, Sonya, is toxically injured from pesticide poisoning, like me. She used to get dis/parv every 3 years, before I knew better, & Rabies every 5. My 2 year old standard poodle, & service dog, Rosie, had one set of distemper/parvo at the breeders, the day before I got her. 4 days later she nearly died. When it was time or the next booster, I asked the vet to titer instead. She came back “protected for life.” They other thing we discovered, the toxins from her vaccines come out of her body and make me sick. Since the most toxic vac necessary in our area is the Rabies, I got a medical exemption for her, and for me. So we don’t do any. I also use natural substances for parasites & pests, no pesticides! I feed organic Raw, & Brother’s Complete, with supplements like probiotics, enzymes, astaxanthin, & detox caps, as needed. We have a non-toxic, fragrance free environment.

I support the rabies challenge fund.

[Jackie B]

It is difficult to transfer cats to wet food, but really it is better for them in the end. Male cats are prone to bladder stones and can get urinary tract obstructions, especially if they only eat dry food. My friend’s cat had to have surgery on his urethra– he was an all dry food cat. A circulating pet water fountain can encourage cats and dogs to drink more. Although it doesn’t help with supplements.

[Anonymous]

Poor cat is on fluconazole liquid one time a day, he hates me already, I cannot even look at him and he runs, I hate this. He was very sensitive to people anyway, I have two orange big boys who love you no matter what, almost act like dogs, but little Iggy, is that blue grey color and is so shy, he was the hit by cat baby we grabbed up off the road. We will muddle through, because the lesion is right against his eye, I almost have to use this form of treatment, I did have the Veterycin eye wash which the company says kills ringworm, but it didn’t seem to be doing it. I will also try to feed him supplements but he is one of those finicky guys who only loves the dry food! I always offered him canned but he prefers his dry! I love my kitties but dogs are easier!

[Shawna]

I had to do a food trial too.. I’m a raw feeder and feed a LOT of variety so a food trial was a must. I eliminated EVERYTHING she had been exposed to in the past and started feeding her raw ostrich as the protein and a novel starch and gave her freeze dried goat for treats.. She ate this and only this for 6 months. At the end of the 6 months her sysmptoms were a thing of the past. I then introduced a new food about every 4 days to make sure there wasn’t a delayed reaction. Turns out she is allergic to beef bone (which I have to watch in whole food supplements as well as her raw diet), goat dairy, cow tripe and barley. I believe the lectin proteins in the barley damaged her gut allowing the proteins from the other foods to get into her bloodstream causing the allergic reaction. Oddly, she has no issue with what we think to be “protein” — chicken, beef, lamb, duck, turkey etc.

With Audrey we were sure it was a food allergy because she had symptoms year round and because her eosinophil white blood cell count was high on her blood work (eosinophils can be high with food allergies and parasitic infections). From my understanding, eosinophils are not high in food intolerances however and food intolerances (like Audrey’s to barley) can have the same symptoms as true allergies.

[Jackie B]

I have tried just about everything to cure my rescued mini poodle of dark eye stains. Distilled water, filtered water, eye wipes, vinegar, PH urinary health supplements (I thought they might discourage yeast, I didn’t end up using them for long enough to tell for sure so that still might work), on and on. I did not want to use a popular product that contains off-label chicken antibiotic, Angel Eyes. It would really just kill the yeast, not eliminate the reason for the tears, and I have reservations about cosmetic non-prescription antibiotic use.

Eventually quality grain-free food and a daily dog multivitamin (Solid Gold brand Seameal) have reduced the stains by about 50%. I believe that a lot of the tearing is environmental allergy related, or perhaps due to the structure of the eye.

I’ve never thought about peas.

[Shawna]

I typed a response out and then lost it — user error UGHHH

I think its a good idea to look for a higher protein food as seniors need more protein than adults and protein is shown to help with weight loss. I’d also suggest trying a potato free food. Potatoes are known to aggravate arthritic issues in some. The protein in nightshade plants, like potato, bind with the fluid in the joints which causes inflammation. This may not be an issue for your pup but better safe than sorry in my opinion. Marie made a wonderful list of grain and potato free foods. It’s in the ingredient forum if I remember correctly.

Some of the foods in Marie’s list may not be high enough in protein but if they are better for the budget you can always add lightly cooked egg whites (high in good quality protein and no fat), boiled chicken, sardines packed in water, high protein canned etc as a topper to whatever kibble you chose.

My girlfriend started her senior dog on a product by Nutromax called Dosaquin. I really dislike some of the ingredients in it but she feels that the benefits are outweighing the negatives for her old lab mix. She’s seen noticable improvement.

I’ve seen a product for joints on Mercola Health Pets that looks great. I’d try this one before the Dosaquin if it were one of my pups. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/pet-joint-supplements.aspx

I would also suggest organic turmeric and the enzyme bromelain. Both have been shown to have a positive affect on arthritic cases — both are anti-inflammatory. Turmeric is relatively inexpensive and well tolerated by most.

Also, check with your vet on the exercise. I had a girlfriend with a similar case with her lab mix. Turns out the extra exercise was doing more harm than good for her pup. Ended up having to do water workouts with him — great exercise but easier on the joints.

[Shawna]

Hi Jess,

I think you are really wise to look for a higher protein food. Senior dogs need more protein than adult dogs. I’d also like to suggest that you consider a potato free food. Nightshade plants, like potato, have been shown to aggravate some cases of arthritis. The protein in potato (called a lectin) can actually bind with the joint fluid causing inflammation in the area (may not be a problem for your furkid but better safe than sorry in my opinion).

Adding organic turmeric (the spice) to whatever food you feed can be very helpful too. Turmeric has been proven to be a powerful anti-inflammatory and quite effective in arthritic cases (needs to be organic as non-organic can be irradiated which damages the spice). The enzyme bromelain has also had positive results.

And, my girlfriend is using a product called Dasuquin by Nutromax for her elderly lab mix. She says she has seen noticable improvements while on it. I’m NOT AT ALL crazy about the ingredients in it but in her case she feels the good outweighs the bad in her senior pup..

Lastly, Mercola Healthy Pets has a joint supplement that looks really interesting. Personally, I’d try this one over Dasuquin. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/pet-joint-supplements.aspx

I’m not sure if any of the foods listed in the link below are within your budget, and amounts of protein vary, but these are all grain and white potato free. (Thanks for making the list Marie!!) /forums/topic/grain-and-potato-free-dog-foods/

If a slightly lower protein food is better on the budget, you can always add lightly cooked egg whites (high protein and no fat), sardines packed in water (good source of anti-inflammatory omega 3 and will increase protein), high protein canned foods etc as toppers to the kibble.

Check with your vet on exercising. My frined had a similar issue to yours and found out too late that the extra walking did more harm than good for her pups joints. She ended up having to use water therapy (great exercise without causing negative impact on the joints).

[pugmomsandy]

She could eat the chicken/potato/veggies (grilled, baked, steamed, whichever) but you would have to leave off the seasonings and butter and it might be too much carbs for the dog, and she would still need some supplements like calcium for the lack of bone, maybe some additional omega 3, and some other vits/minerals! If you’re going to feed like that I would definitely get a complete doggie multivitamin (Nature’s Logic, Missing Link) and maybe an omega 3-6-9 supplement if these are not included in the multivitamin.

Dogaware.com has a homemade diet section and lists some supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

clm86 –

Considering your dog’s issues I think Abady granular would be worth looking into. It would be a great food for putting weight on a dog – it’s high fat with around 800 calories per cup (about twice as many calories per cup as kibble). I’ve also heard dogs with sensitive stomachs do well on it.

Wet food is definitely a good addition to dry food, but it wouldn’t help much as far as adding calories. Due to its high moisture content wet food is generally much less calorie-dense than dry food.

I had issues getting my female bloodhound (now two years old) to gain weight and it wasn’t until I switched her to a high protein, high fat, low carbohydrate homemade raw diet that I got her to gain anything (she’s still skinny but looks a lot better than before she was on raw). She eats 2 lbs. of meat per day with extras – such as eggs, cottage cheese and kefir – plus supplements and veggies and I was able to get her to put on 5 (much needed!) pounds after three months on raw and now she’s maintaining nicely. I aim for her meals to be 40-50% protein and 30-40% fat. So if you’ve got the time and money a high fat homemade diet would probably be the best option. The other benefit of homemade is you can tailor it to the needs of your sensitive dog since you control all the ingredients that go into it.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Alexandra!

Good question. Nutritionally speaking – as long as both contain appropriate amounts of muscle meat, organ meat and bone – they’re the same. However there are some pro’s and con’s to both. RMBs and chunks of meat more closely mimic the consumption of a whole prey animal and provide the dog with dental benefits that ground meat doesn’t. RMBs and chunks of meat are much less likely to be contaminated with bacteria such as salmonella (although with a healthy dog, this shouldn’t be much of a concern). RMBs and chunks generally have a cheaper price per pound (versus ground meat) as well. The downside is that cutting up your own meat is definitely more time consuming and I also find that it’s much easier to combine veggies and supplements or a pre-mix with ground meat. I personally feed ground in the a.m. with either a pre-mix or veggies and supplements and RMBs and “chunks” of meat (whole gizzards, hearts, livers, etc.) in the evening. Because you’re feeding the Darwin’s for on meal a day you could certainly add your supplements to this and feed chunks and bones for the other meal, then you’d be getting the best of both worlds.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Blue Corgi –

No, the ingredients aren’t just made up. Knowing how to balance a homemade diet is VERY important. Feeding an unbalanced diet can result in some serious health issues if the unbalanced diet is fed long term. It’s wonderful that you’re interested in feeding your dogs a homemade diet – I STRONGLY feel that when done correctly a homemade diet is the healthiest thing for a dog.

Ingredients you use will differ slightly based on whether you’re planning on feeding raw or cooked. But with either diet the most important thing is getting the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1. To achieve this when feeding a raw diet with bone you will want to feed 80% boneless muscle meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bone and for cooked diets or raw diets without bone you want to feed 90% boneless muscle meat, 10% organ meat and add 800-1,000 mg. calcium per pound of meat and organ fed. Green tripe is a rare exception to this rule as green tripe naturally has a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. You should feed an even mixture of red meat and poultry – don’t feed predominately one or the other as they have different types of fats. I give my dogs red meat in the a.m. and poultry in the p.m. As far as being “exact every time” – you don’t have to be exact every time but you do need to be exact over time. This means, if you decide you want to feed a meal that’s 20% organ meat at breakfast you can just feed a meal without organ meat at dinner – this would still balance out to your dog getting 10% organ meat in its diet. Balance over time.

You should feed around 80% meat – the other 20% can be vegetables, fruits, extras and supplements. All veggies should be cooked and pureed as dogs don’t produce the enzyme cellulase to breakdown the cellulose in raw veggies – cooking and pureeing in a sense “pre-digests” the veggies so the dog can derive some nutrients from them. Extras are optional and would include things like eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir, etc.

For supplements I would recommend adding a form of animal-based omega 3’s (fish body oil or an oily fish such as sardines), vitamin e and super-foods (kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, etc.). I also give my dogs Carlson cod liver oil every other day for some extra vitamin d (cod liver oil should be limited though as it’s very high in vitamin a, I feed Carlson because it has the lowest vitamin a levels). You can add a multi-vitamin if you wish but if you’re feeding a wide variety of foods and adding the supplements I mentioned I don’t think it would be necessary. If you’re feeding a cooked diet you may want to consider supplementing with enzymes. If you don’t feed kefir, yogurt and/or green tripe on a regular basis you may also want to consider a probiotic supplement a few days of the week.

Lastly – keep this in mind because it’s critical when feeding a homemade diet – variety! Feed many different protein sources, many different types of organs, different fruits, veggies and extras and rotate different supplements into the mix every once in awhile. This will help to ensure that over time your dogs get all the nutrients they need.

Another option to make things easier – if you don’t feel comfortable making food from scratch yet – would be to use a premix. With a premix you generally just add meat and water – the mix contains all the fruits, veggies and supplements your dog needs. Some good premixes are The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, Sojo’s, Urban Wolf, Birkdale Petmix and Dr. Harvey’s.

I would recommend checking out dogaware.com – there’s a lot of good information on homemade diets there. I would also recommend reading Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” If you check out the “menu” topic on the raw thread I’ve posted my dogs’ menu so you can get an idea of what a balanced diet should look like.

I hope that helps. Feel free to post any questions! Quite a few of us here feed homemade food and can help you out. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Alexandra –

Looks good to me! Because you’re feeding the Darwin’s for one meal every day I don’t think there’s any need for you to be overly concerned about supplements. All the hare today grinds have the appropriate ratio of muscle meat, organ meat and bone – so no need to worry about calcium to phosphorus ratios and organ meat amounts. And the fish oil and green supplement will be great for a little extra nutritional assurance.

[pugmomsandy]

Using one of the premixes might be a good place to start while doing further research and gathering recipes.

http://www.dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html

http://www.dogaware.com/diet/dogfoodmixes.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/real-food-for-healthy-dogs-and-cats-cookbook.aspx this book has cooked and raw recipes. This is the one I use. Even if you don’t end up making homemade, the info in the book is great and covers food, supplements, and fats, and nutrition. I thought homemade was difficult until I did it. Alot of meat, some veggie/fruit, done. And some supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi chynamae!

Are you interesting in homemade raw or homemade cooked?

I feed my three bloodhounds a homemade raw diet. It’s really pretty simple once you get the hang of it.

You want 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat (5% liver, 5% other organs) and 10% bone – if you don’t want to include bone in the diet or are making a cooked diet you would use 90% muscle meat and 10% organ meat + 800-1,000 mg calcium per 1 lb. meat. You’ll want to keep the meat portion around 80% of the diet the other 20% will be vegetables (cooked and pureed) and supplements. Fruits and extras (i.e. cottage cheese, eggs, kefir, etc.) can be added if you want, but I’d keep it to under 10% of the meal.

For supplements you’ll need to add some trace nutrients. You can get a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement, but I think whole foods are preferable. I mix my own supplement for my dogs with equal parts, I rotate ingredients but the mix I’m currently using is: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, wheat grass, barley grass, bee pollen and garlic powder. You’ll need to add vitamin e as vitamin e is hard to supply in adequate quantities through food alone – for a small dog I’d recommend 50-100 i.u. every day or every other day, medium dogs 100-200 i.u. every day or every other day and 300-400 i.u. every day or every other day for large dogs. I’d also recommend adding a high quality animal-based omega 3 supplement – fish body oil or an oily fish such as sardines.

To keep it even simpler there are pre-mixes available in which all you need to add is meat – THK’s preference, Sojo’s, Birkdale, Urban Wolf, Dr. Harvey’s, etc. Or you can purchase meat/organ/bone grinds (primal, bravo, hare today, my pet carnivore) in which all you need to add are supplements.

Be sure to feed an even mixture of red meat and poultry and feed as much variety as possible. My dogs get a ground red meat meal in the a.m. to which I add their supplements and poultry rmb’s in the evening.

A sample daily menu for my three would be:

a.m. -1 lb. Red Meat Grind (80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat, 10% Bone)
-1/2 c. Cooked & Pureed Veggies
-1/4 C. Kefir
-400 i.u. Vitamin E
-1/2 tbs. Sardine/Anchovy oil blend
-1/2 tbs. supplement

p.m. -Chicken Back (approx. 8 oz.)
-Chicken Foot (approx. 2 oz.)
-2 oz. Chicken Gizzards
-2 oz. Chicken Hearts
-2 oz. Chicken Livers
-Whole Egg

*When feeding RMBs you want to add about 8-12 oz. boneless meat for each pound of RMB.

Hope that helps! 🙂