[HoundMusic]

Ok! I understand now. Unfortunetly I believe that Ca and Phos go hand in hand. If the Ca is low the Phos will also be low. I do not believe (but could be wrong) that you can still achieve low Phos levels with calcium appropriate for a small/medium breeds needs for growth. Really sounds like a frustrating problem indeed! What does your vet think?

No, you’re absolutely right – calcium & phosphorous tag along together, and while phos is always lower, if a food has high levels of calcium, it usually has elevated phos, as well. Moderate protein ones will naturally have lower phosphorous, though, so I was hoping to find something along those lines that would have less than the usual puppy formulations. Even talking about it makes me frustrated.

My Vet is absolutely useless. IVDD is epidemic in my breed, even worse in this bloodline, and by now I can recognize its symptoms just by picking a three month old puppy up beneath the front legs. Vet is brushing the hitching off as pano (probably thinks I’m hallucinating), but he’s not the one who’s had Beagles for over 22yrs. For now, I’ve decided to start him on a calcium supplement until I’ve switched foods, and see if that helps…

[aimee]

I just thought I’d comment since The Honest Kitchen ( THK) foods have been discussed in regards to LBP’s with the concerns referenced back to me.

The concern I have with THK is that not all of the nutrient profiles they have published currently meet AAFCO.

Here are a few examples:

“Love” is marketed as an all life stages food: ~4825 kcals/kg
THK reports Love’s Ca content as 1.19% DM Using the AAFCO min 1%DM and that any diet over 4000kcals/kg must be corrected for energy density the min calcium should be 1.37% The correction factor is 4825/3500 X 1% = 1.37 %

So here we see a diet below AAFCO min for Calcium. Using the newer AAFCO min of 1.2% DM and energy density of 4000kcals/kg. It is clear that even before using the necessary correction factor the diet will be below AAFCO The correction factor in the new guidelines 4825/4000 x 1.2% = 1.44%

“Thrive” is another all life stages food ~4859kcals/kg

THK reports Ca as 1.34%. Min Ca to meet AAFCO profiles :4859/3500 x 1 = 1.38% or 4859/4000 x 1.2 = 1.45%. Either way a smidge below AAFCO.

Looking at another nutrient from Thrive: THK reports Vit E as 54.11 IU
AAFCO min 4859/3500 X 50 = 69.4IU or 4859/4000 X 50 = 60.7 IU.. either way the diet falls short.

THK used to report the Vit E content in Keen as 23.45IU; clearly below AFFCO min of 50 IU. I contacted them via chat and they confirmed that was the correct and most current value. Then I asked why it was below AAFCO…and then they gave me a new number- 56.24 which is now on their website. Presto Chango!

They report 4524.6kcals/kg 4524.6/4000 X 50 = 56.56IU or 4524.6/3500 X 50 = 64.67IU. Either way their new number falls a bit short too.

It also concerns me that they do “Presto Chango” the nutrient information on their site when I inquire about a concern. That wasn’t the first time THK has immediately changed a nutrient level in their tables after I contacted them.

I like the concept of the food and I think it would be OK to use for intermittent or supplemental feeding but personally I wouldn’t raise a pup on any of their diets.

[mary s]

Wow, well, thank you all for your opinions. First, THK is on Hound Dog Mom’s list as OK for Large breed puppies, and she even mentions in a post, that before she started feeding raw it was what she fed. It sounds like some more current “suggestions” differ from what she was putting out there at the start of this list. Second, regarding research…..I lived my research regarding traditional vet med. I had two littermate brothers with IBD. They weighed 52 and 58 pounds with bloody mucus filled poop, and could have died from the IBD. 3 different vets wanted to scope them, keep them on metranidozole (sorry, I’m sure I spelled that wrong) and steroids indefinitely. The raw diet, supplements, and homeopathic remedies are what saved their lives, and they went to 85 and 75 pounds. and lived to be 12. It might be beneficial for some of you to look up true homeopathics before some of the judgements. However, I am not interested in a debate either. I just came here for some help. Anyway, while disappointed, I am more certain of what I am doing. And thank you to whomever said they were glad he was doing better, because he is…..no blood, perfectly formed poop – without the harsh medications that only suppress the symptoms anyway. I think we may be in the wrong pew, but I wish you all the very best of luck with your dogs 🙂

[anonymous]

“It can also be confusing with all of the info available to us now. This is just my opinion, and I am no expert, but the skepvet is to the extreme opposite of holistic health. It is important to research all information, but some of the critical advice of the skeptvet is harsh and frightening. Again this is just my opinion”.

Holistic, homeopathic……what does that mean? Funny how these homeopathic vets tend to charge more for a consult than traditional vets do.

I trust my traditional vet. I communicate my concerns regarding treatment options if I have concerns and often we are able to come up with a plan we are both comfortable with. I don’t consider Dr Google research. If you have a medical background you may be able to weed through some of the inaccurate information, but most people can’t.
I have found the SkeptVet site to be extremely helpful. Just my opinion.
PS: Nothing is being sold at the above mentioned site, no supplements, no books, no t-shirts, no membership fees.
Just science-based veterinary medicine.

[Chandra R]

Thank you so much for the info…love the ideas!

Yeah we feed her a certain amount of ounces to make up for the dry and add certain supplements and fatty acids. She just wants her to get more protein rather than sugar bc our dog doesn’t do well with the dry–she gets bad yeast rashes.

[Jenn H]

CC, thank you for the kind words.
The dog in the avatar is actually the uncle of the dog I was talking about earlier. Sadly I lost him to HSA of the aorta. That was one of the worst nights of my life. I guess that’s part of the reason I have become so hypersensitive and obsessed with Chevelle’s health. She’s special in her own way and the living connection I still have here.

It pains me when anyone’s pet isn’t well. I understand all too well the fright, uncertainty and helplessness. Any one of us would trade places with them in a second.

I am not crazy about the ingredients of the food she is on now, but for some reason it agrees with her. I don’t know if it’s broken down more or what. It’d be nice to know why and if I can find another that yields the same results with better quality ingredients.
When I contacted Science Diet about the ingredients and asked why they don’t use chelated minerals and source some supplements from China I got a response that had a defensive tone with the excuse that China is largest supplier of a lot of supplements and it’s cost effective.
I’m considering going back to Wysong. She seemed to also do well on that for a good long time. They have always been really polite, helpful and open.

I hope soon we won’t need to have these discussions and our animals can finally have foods that truly maintain and improve their health.

[Stan S]

One of my dogs had a food intolerance and was allergic to chicken, turkey and grains, especially corn and wheat. As I changed his diet plan he incurred to diarrhea. A friend of mine, who is also a vet, suggested that I try a probiotic supplement from Ample Nutrition. That was about a month ago. Since then, I have definitely seen some improvements. I mix the supplement with his food every day and he gladly eats them. Ample Nutrition has an excellent options for dogs.
I can provide a link to their website, you can go through it.
Complete Dog Prebiotic & Probiotic
Hope this helped.

[Spy Car]

Hey Cannoli,

Homes are filled with a myriad of items that can be considered choking hazards for dogs (and children). People starting raw feeding should monitor their dogs to make sure they get the hang of chewing bone (which is about as natural an instinct as canines could have). Feeding larger sized pieces of bone-in parts (like chicken quarters) that can’t be gulped is always smart, as is supervising a dog new to raw feeding.

But dogs are hard wired to chew. The risks of choking on appropriately sized chicken bones are very low and diminish to near zero as dogs get accustomed to it. Intestinal blockages from items like chicken bones are exceedingly rare. I’d worry a lot more about socks.

The calcium (and its bioavailability) from bone is not in question. Concerns about absorption are misplaced. Getting calcium from bone is what canines were shaped by evolution to do. It is superior to artificial supplementation.

The PMR style of feeding with 10% bone keeps the Calcium Phosphorus ratios at the perfect 1.2:1 levels recommended by the leading authorities as optimal. It is spreading a false fear that rotational feedings with calcium supplements are necessary to maintain mineral balances:it simply isn’t so.

The act of chewing is good for dogs. It is relaxing for them. It builds good dental health (encouraging strong gums and clean teeth) and builds strong neck and jaw muscles, in a fashion that feeding calcium powder does not.

If an owner wishes to brush teeth on top of raw feeding, great! I just know how many conventionally fed dogs I know and they nearly all have tartar-stained yellowing (if not rotten teeth) in marked contrast to raw fed dogs whose teeth stay nice and white (with fresh breath).

When we get phobic or fearful about very natural ways of being it has a cost. This is true both with dogs and with children. One can cut off “play” because someone might get hurt, but that comes at a cost. The risks of feeding soft edible bones to dogs is very (very) low, Cutting them out of the diet due to inflated assessments of the risks has a cost.

The advantages to feeding soft edible bone vastly outweigh the risks. Feeding powdered calcium is sub-optimal.

Bill

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.

[Cannoli]

In regards to your second concern:

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

You don’t need to just do bones for calcium..You can use natural supplements like Natural seaweed calcium found on Amazon, or use a bone calcium supplement also found on Amazon (just make sure it is Vitamin D free if you plan to feed organs), or you can use egg shells..

[Ann F]

We had the first endoscopy done when my dog was about 15 months old. He’d been still having some IBD symptoms on his Duck and Potato kibble. Poor thing! His intestines, and stomach had deep crater-like sores from the smoldering inflammation. Biopsies of the large and small intestines showed he had Eosinophilic Gastroenteritis, along with another type of IBD. Steroids were the only treatment for the Eosinophilic cells since it was mainly an auto-immune problem. Budesonide did nothing, but we had major improvement with just a very small amount of prednisone, and of course the novel protein diet. This type of IBD can damage the small intestine so much that it is not able to absorb the nutritional components well in the foods the dog eats! With the BalanceIt vitamin, mineral and amino acid supplement the nutritionist could compensate and bump up what he couldn’t absorb from his damaged intestines. Honestly, I’m not selling anything. This just worked so well in our case after years of searching.

[Jenn H]

I have found that a lot of the management & treatment of my girl’s idiopathic IBD is trial & error unfortunately.
For her I have found that she does best on:
*foods that have a SIGNIFICANT amount of meat based protein. Not just a moderate amount. No extra fiber.
*minimal kibble and it’s soaked. I add water to all her food anyway. Even wet.
*1 protein at a time (very slowly switch)
*Pepcid
*exercise. Helps gut with motility.

She did well for 7 months then had a set back. Right now she’s back to i/d cans and boiled chicken. The vet suggested Royal Canin Ultamino, but that’s way beyond my budget.
Per the vet’s suggestion she is on Fortiflora probiotics daily.
Luckily none of the vets who have treated her have put her on a steroid.

Her recent relapse may have been a result of too much fiber and/or eating a kibble that had a moderate amount of meat for its main protein source. It could also have because I was trying different proteins and it was too much change.

The problem with IBD is that it’s a broad diagnosis with many causes. There is no one size fits most treatment.

If possible maybe you should find another vet who can better direct your management. Sounds like your vet isn’t very knowledgeable about this particular condition or nutrition in general.

Be careful with supplements especially fat soluble vitamins. You can over do it. Many vitamins have accompanying minerals. Too much of a vitamin and not enough of the mineral can cause a new set of problems.

My vets have mention endoscopy only as a second to last resort. The absolute last diagnostic would be biopsy. They will only do either of those things if the condition becomes severe.

It’s a very frustrating diagnosis, but it can be managed. The difficulty is finding what works for that particular pet. While finding what works can cause a flare up. Thankfully pets are forgiving.

[Kellye P]

Kristen R,
Thank you so much for taking the time to post your comment. It means the world to me to know that all my struggles with Duffy might be helping other dog parents.
You are so right, there is very limited and conflicting information available to us.
I have had multiple requests to write a book, and I really need to get busy. It wouldn’t be only about Duffy, though. My experiences out here on our little Kentucky farm have taught me a lot.
Stick to your guns with Layla. If nothing else, you know that you are not making decisions based on what company is actively marketing you as a client. Just say no. I am 100% certain that you are right on this subject!!
Don’t be afraid to try the Chi Institute supplements if you have a holistic vet in your area. I found them to be very effective.
I know how hard this is. It’s the worst. Not all protocols work for every dog so don’t feel trapped by what “they” say. Duffy was the exception to every single rule. Opinions on how much insulin to give him varied from 20 units a day to 0 units a day. I was supposed to make sense of all the conflicting data and various theories.
All you can do is educate yourself and go with your own gut feeling. Not easy!!!
Good luck!!
(thanks again)

Kellye

[anonymous]

Did your vet suggest any type of gentle exercise such as aquatic therapy? Otherwise known as swimming in a heated pool, one minute of swimming is equivalent to 4 minutes of running, easy on the joints and might lift her mood a little.
If that’s not an option, see if your vet can prescribe pain meds that come in a liquid form. It might be easier to dispense with a small syringe.

“Supplements are not medication, they are not FDA approved. They are food supplements, not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure”

Per the search engine here: /forums/search/supplements/

[Ryan K]

My 14 year old Old English Sheepdog is pretty much at the end phase of her life and we are all heartbroken over it. She has been fairly sick over the last few weeks with a lack of appetite and her hind legs giving out. Our vet has said that she has nerve degeneration in her spine that is causing her back legs to gradually slide out from under her. With a small dog this is a bit easier to handle with carrying them and getting them around but with a 65 pound dog it’s not that easy. I wondered if there was any supplement that people have given their dogs for aiding the nerves in regenerating or getting better? I read that the mushroom Lion’s Mane is great for humans but haven’t heard how much a dog could tolerate. I would love to keep my dog going cause she’s so vibrant despite her age and these new hindrances. We love her so much and this has been a rough couple weeks with thinking the end is near. Is it a waste or stupid to try new supplements at this point? I brought her in to the vet today thinking it was the end for her after a long night of heavy panting and only eating canned food that she KNOWS has no pills in. She has suddenly become a detective with finding her meds hidden in wrapped treats and spits them out and it’s just crazy! But, he said that although she is old and not feeling well he thinks she looks good and can go a bit longer and he didn’t recommend euthanasia which was a relief. I don’t want to prolong her pain or make her stick around just to avoid that decision.

Any recommendations for senior dog supplements for the nervous system would be great. Also, she is allergic to brewers yeast so I have to avoid that ingredient. Thanks!

[Michael F]

Hi Everyone, Thanks so much for replying to my original post, it helps my boy and I not feel so alone out here. I’m happy to say that for now he is doing much better, knock on wood!!! I’m currently feeding three times a day, some lamb and rice kibble, mixed with cooked chicken and rice and Honest Kitchen Brave, I’m slowly weaning him off the cooked chicken and rice and increasing the Honest Kitchen, and trying to get him down to one protein as I was told that dogs with I.B.D. do best on a single protein. His vitamin B-12 level was low normal and I asked the vet if that could have come from eating only cooked chicken and rice but he didn’t think so, I also asked if there was a Vitamin B-12 Supplement that I could give him that would help build that up but he said no, only Vitamin B shots would work. I evaluated the cooked chicken and rice I had been feeding him and found it obviously to be very low on all vitamins he would need and also found that Boiled Chicken is a very low source of Vitamin B-12, in addition the amount of that I was feeding was way too low on Calories, before having to go on the bland diet he had been eating Tuscan Natural Lamb and Rice which he did well on for 60 pounds worth, and then starting having strange clay like poops, I realized that it was very low in fiber, so now I’m mixing it with the Honest Kitchen Brave, seems to be giving him the fiber he needs. I also did some research with some Holistic Vets and put him on Mercola Pet Probiotics and in addition I found a Vitamin B-12 Supplement for pets from Wonder Laboratories called Pet Factor B-12 with Folic Acid Intrinsic Factor, they both seem to have really helped and his B-12 level has come back up. I didn’t want to overdue the B-12 and I didn’t want to mix it in on his other medicine day so I only give him a single capsule every other day. I read about the Wonder Lab B-12 product on a website for dogs with SIBO which apparently can also be coupled with IBD in some dogs. I will say that the internist wasn’t overly helpful in what to do except to keep trying to find a food he could eat. I really believe that the Mercola Probiotics have been the most beneficial thing in settling down his digestive system and I think having him on a very small amount of kibble and mainly the soft dehydrated food have also helped calm things down, and for him the B-12 capsules have also helped to increase the B-12 level, I know the vets say the shots are the only way, but these tablets seem to work. Please let me know what things you guys are having luck with, Thanks! I forgot to mention, my Internist said that most of dogs he was seeing with IBD were eating dog foods that had a lot of fruit in them and he felt blue berries and other fruits just were not appropriate for dogs, he did think some apple’s would be OK but that was about it as far as fruit went. (Note my dog was never on a food with a bunch of fruit in it, so who knows)

[Spy Car]

As I mentioned in the other thread, both you and your dogs are likely to be a lot better off following a Prey Model diet as opposed to using recipes by Dr Pitcairn that undermine the advantages of a raw diet by including unnecessary (and counterproductive) grains and vegetables and excluding highly positive soft edible bones.

Feeding whole foods in the right ratios will eliminate the need for supplementation, and optimize health. Also easier on you.

Dr Pitcairn’s approach is outmoded and not widely followed or esteemed in the raw feeding community. It is too much like trying to emulate commercial food at home, instead of feeding a natural whole food diet.

As to bones, I don’t personally feed turkey legs, but some people do. I do feed turkey necks. All chicken bones (raw) are good.

Oily-fish is good, but limit to twice a week feedings (not daily) as most of the most-beneficial fish species have a substance that can block Vitamin B12. This substance, called Thaminaise, passes quickly. It is not a big deal unless you feed a lot of fish on a daily basis.

What are health cuts for dogs are cuts that include plenty of fat. Lean cuts, like inexpensive trimmed beef heart and be supplemented with animal fat. Dogs need to transition to fat burning, so better to being with lean meals and work up slowly. And you need organs.

Once growth plateaus you are better feeding once a day (post wind down from the day’s activities). When not fed grains/carbohydrates (as it ideal, and a prime reason to do a raw diet) dogs turn to the superior (for them) fat metabolism. When fat burning dogs have nearly unlimited stores of energy, so don’t need multiple meals throughout the day. Better if durning their active time they run and play on empty stomachs (especially in large breeds that have risks of GVD aka bloat/torsion).

I’d ditch Dr Pitcairn, which is what I’d suspect you’ll hear from virtually all the raw feeders you encounter. It is both a hassle and a diet with highly questionable downsides.

Bill

[anonymously]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/herbs-and-supplements/ http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=probiotics
Nothing being sold at the above sites, no supplements, no t-shirts, no membership fees, no books, nothing.

[anonymously]

Why does the dog need supplements?

I would take the dog to a vet, has he had a senior workup? Labs, exam etc. If not, that is where I would start. Get him diagnosed and then evaluate the treatment options presented.
Supplements are not medication.

[Helen C]

My elderly chihuahua is a picky eater, won’t take pills, and hates the taste of fish. That pretty much eliminates about 99% of all dog dietary supplements. It’s very frustrating. That said, Dinovite he *will* eat! Tiny amounts sprinkled on his food. So far so good. But after just 2 days, he developed diarrhea. I think the probiotics were a little much for him. So I backed it off, will wait a week, and try again at a lower (much lower) dose.

If someone knows a better supplement for a tiny dog (4 pounds) with eating issues, let me know! I’m particularly eager to get him supplemented with B vitamins. The only liquid supplement I’ve found for the three B’s I’m looking for (B12, B6, Folic Acid) was human and had xylitol in it. NO GO!

So … if anyone has suggestions please let me know.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Helen C.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Helen C.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Justin-
I agree with Anon. I wouldn’t add any supplements to the kibble unless your dog develops a condition that warrants them. I do think adding fresh or canned foods along with some water is a great idea. Just remember to feed less kibble to make up for the added calories.

I feed my dogs mostly Whole Earth Farms and Nutrisource kibble and add either canned food, tripe, egg, sardines or commercial raw to it. Good luck to you!

[anonymously]

Nothing is being sold at the below sites, no supplements, no books, no t-shirts, no member fees, nothing. Hope this helps.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/herbs-and-supplements/
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=probiotics
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

Science -based veterinary medicine.

[Mom2Cavs]

My youngest, 2 yr old Jasper, has IBD diagnosed by ultrasounds, blood tests, xrays. No endoscope as of yet. He presents with protein loss and anemia. He vomits when in a flare. Currently he’s eating Fromm Whitefish and Potato with Firm Up and pre/probiotics and enzymes added. He also gets Standard Process Ferrofood and a herbal supplement called Blood and Energy for his anemia. Other foods he can eat are Sportmix Wholesome Fish and Rice and a food from Drs Foster and Smith called Digestion…..it’s actually vegetarian. Currently he’s not on meds but we have given him flagyl, cerenia, Pepcid or Prilosec in the past. At the beginning (almost 1.5 yrs ago) he was on some prednolisone and Tylan.

[Molly F]

I realized I should have posted this as a new topic, not buried at the end of another topic!
So, sorry if it’s a repeat for some:
Hey all!
Brand new to the site and to raw feeding!
I am probably going to be working off Dr. Pitcairn’s recipes, and I had a question about supplements. I’d prefer whole food ingredients, so I’m probably going to use eggshell for calcium. I’m wondering if eggs themselves could provide enough vitamin A? I’m thinking of doing an egg based meal in the morning and meat and grain in the evening, using whole sardines for the omegas.
I’m going to check with some local meat producers to get the healthiest meat available and will probably add bones at some point. I read that turkey leg bones aren’t really safe (feel free to add your experience) but what about raw chicken legs?
My puppy is a 7 1/2 mo old German Shepherd from fairly beefy stock (dad was 110lbs, mom was 80!!!), so of course I’ve gotten myself all scared about proper calcium ratios. If I give her whole sardines, those bones shouldn’t throw off the ratios too much, right?
I know many people recommend a more “primal” style diet, but I’m on a tight budget these days and the grain component will Really help stretch my dollar!

[Molly F]

Hey all!
Brand new to the site and to raw feeding!
I am probably going to be working off Dr. Pitcairn’s recipes, and I had a question about supplements. I’d prefer whole food ingredients, so I’m probably going to use eggshell for calcium. I’m wondering if eggs themselves could provide enough vitamin A? I’m thinking of doing an egg based meal in the morning and meat and grain in the evening, using whole sardines for the omegas. I’m going to check with some local meat producers to get the healthiest meat available and will probably add bones at some point. I read that turkey leg bones aren’t really safe (feel free to add your experience) but what about raw chicken legs?
My puppy is a 7 1/2 mo old German Shepherd from fairly beefy stock (dad was 110lbs, mom was 80!!!), so of course I’ve gotten myself all scared about proper calcium ratios. If I give her whole sardines, those bones shouldn’t throw off the ratios too much, right?

[anonymously]

Seizures are a neurological disorder. Food won’t help. Supplements won’t help. Medication prescribed by veterinarian that has examined and diagnosed the dog helps and may prevent the brain damage and suffering caused by untreated seizures.

Check this blog for science-based veterinary medicine http://skeptvet.com/Blog/

[anonymously]

Several negative reports per the search engine here /forums/topic/dinovite/

I hope your vet warned you about supplements, most do nothing and some can cause harm.
If your dog has a skin condition I would go to a board-certified veterinary dermatologist, get her diagnosed and then you can evaluate the treatment options presented.
/forums/search/allergies/

[mary s]

I had two Irish Setters with IBD…they were brothers. It showed up at about 5 or 6 months of age. Bloody, mucus filled poops. I went through several vets because I did not want to use steroids. One boy was 58 pounds and the other was 52 pounds at the onset. After I finally put them on a homemade raw diet (the commercial raw diets did not work for them…I think because of the organ meats in them) and supplements, their poops normalized and they went to 82 and 75 pounds. They have recently passed away…one had a fibrosis in his lungs that I think was caused by the IBD. They had good years once I got the IBD under control. I hope you are able to do that with diet. The raw diet and supplements are what saved them. I forgot to add….I also used the homeopathic remedies Nux Vomica and Arsenicum Album.
Best of luck

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by mary s.

[Ann F]

BalanceIt was a life saver for my dog with IBD, and concurring pancreatitis! Everything in the supplement is hyperallergenic, which you can’t count on when you do the supplements yourself. LID, and Veterinary diets didn’t work for more than a few months without another flare. There was some type of preservatives in the other foods that my Internist though was setting off some of the IBD, It’s a single protein, single carb diet mix, but you can add veggies and fruits later. Easy to make, and fairly cheap even when we used fish. The Academy of Board Certified Vet Nutritionists has a list of nutritionists you can contact, and many use this supplement in their formulated diets.

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

In regards to your questions:

I would get full blood panels on each dog prior to starting your new diet so that you have a baseline to compare back to. I’ve seen it recommended to repeat blood panels every 6 months for dogs on homemade diets.

Some feel comfortable feeding bones.. I do not… I do not think the risk is worth the benefit. If using raw bone as your calcium source I feel finely ground is much safer. Disclosure: I do not feed a raw diet. If I did I’d either use a commercial HPP product or would buy large cuts and partially cook to kill off the bacteria both on the surface and those that have migrated deeper and grind myself. I remain unconvinced that dogs tolerate food borne pathogens significantly better then people do.

What supplements you use are up to your own personal philosophy. The primary concern is that you feed a balanced diet. Unfortunately, when the raw diets that people were feeding have been analyzed, most people who participated in the study did not accomplishing this.

I understand the appeal of a simple 80/10/10 mix but honestly I think it requires just as much attention to detail to balance a raw diet as it does to balance a cooked diet.

There are a few veterinary nutritionists that will balance a raw diet, most will not. Veterinary nutritionists legally can not consult directly with you unless they examine your dog which is why you found that they do not do phone/e mail consults. However they can consult indirectly via your veterinarian. Your vet orders the consult and works with the nutritionist on your behalf.

In regards to carbohydrates, people do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates and dogs do not either. Both species require carbohydrate from a metabolic standpoint, the body just has to generate what the diet doesn’t supply. But I don’t understand this statement “Carbohydrates carry significantly less calories by volume than protein does” Protein and carbs are considered to carry the same number of calories /gram, the volumes involved will depend on the water content.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Courtney R-

Have you ever checked out the http://www.balanceit.com website? It’s a site that allows you to formulate free recipes for healthy dogs and cats. You can choose protein, carb, veggie and/or fruits of your choice. You then can taylor it to your dog’s weight and whatever percetage of fat and protein you want to feed. You do need to buy their supplement to balance it with the proper vitamins and minerals as well.

If your pet has a health condition, they will work with your vet to formulate the recipes for you. Check it out. I have a few recipes that I feed my dogs every now and then.

Good luck!

Edit: BTW, this site is only for cooked home made food, no raw.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Courtney R]

I get that there are dangers to feeding raw and I don’t criticize anyone for trying to make others aware of that fact. All I was trying to say is that a lot of the links posted aren’t particularly useful. For example, the recipe posted earlier was basically chicken, rice and a supplement. I feed my dogs chicken and rice (a bland diet) if they have diarrhea, it’s not really something I would consider balanced and even if I added a supplement it’s not something I would want to feed my dogs routinely or long term. Like I said, I’ve also been researching home cooked meals and am open to them, but from everything I’ve been reading it actually seems MORE difficult to ensure dogs are receiving balanced nutrition from home cooked as opposed to raw. I don’t want to end up in an emergency clinic because of what I’m feeding them (cooked or raw) which is why I’m trying to diligently do my homework.

[InkedMarie]

I felt pretty overwhelmed; no lie. I feed grinds because my husband isn’t interested in. True prey model raw but we do feed turkey necks & beef rib bones. For us, grinds are easy: thre the scale, scoop in, add supplements & feed.

I buy from Hare today; Google for the website. There is a ton of info there and if you have questions, email them. Tracy is the owner and very helpful.

[Courtney R]

So, I’m considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and I’m inwhat I’d call a “researching” phase. Did anyone else feel totally overwhelmed when starting this process or is that just me? Lol

Short background: I have a 60 lb ACD mix that is roughly 7 (Burke) and a 12 lb Pomchi that is 5 (Miles). They’ve been on Orijen for the past couple of years and so far as stools go it seems to agree with them. However, Burke has started getting lick granulomas roughly 2x per year, Miles chronically seems “yeasty”, they’ve both had UTIs this year and we got fleas for the first time ever this summer which has been an utter nightmare. My vet of course gave antibiotics for the UTIs but seems to not be concerned about the other stuff. But to me it seems their immune systems aren’t up to snuff and diets the easiest way at it.

Currently I have 3 questions which might seem totally unrelated:
#1. Should I have a blood panel done prior to starting raw just to be certain there isn’t any reason why it’d be unhealthy to switch them to raw? Seeing as they’re both having issues I’m doubting that would be the case, but I’m a worrier 😉

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

#3. They already get coconut oil, yogurt or kefir, salmon oil and digestive enzymes. Could I continue these through the transition or should I hold off and give their stomachs time to adjust to raw food? Also, any supplements that they absolutely NEED to have or is this kind of just up to me?

Sorry this wasn’t as short as I’d hoped but thanks so much for any help. This forum has already been a big assistance and I can’t wait to learn more from you guys!

[Philip L. P]

Milk Bones? Bad for your dogs, are you all freakin kidding me!

I don’t feed my dogs any form of dog food, I’ve moved the plants that make this stuff and I can guarantee you you’ll never see a filthier place! That my friends goes for those of the better brands also! Wouldn’t feed my dogs a Raw diet either… fresh, cooked, and frozen human food. As to the Milk Bones that’s a whole different story… I heard story’s about the video and claims that are supposed to state scientific fact that Milk Bones are bad for your dogs… and it all has been debunked as hogwash! There’s never been any such scientific study done on any of that. Not saying it is anything other than what it is meant to be ie.. a treat, treats aren’t supposed to be necessarily healthy same as candy for kids, liquor for adults, or drugs for addicts. But when it comes to Milk Bones you won’t find a better bone for your dog to chew on, or one that will keep your dogs teeth and breath clean. They aren’t supposed to be a meal, or even a supplement… they are supposed to be a treat and one that keeps the dogs teeth in good order. That has always worked for me, none of my dogs have ever had cavity’s, broken teeth, or even yellow teeth even in old age. Milk Bones have been around for over a hundred years and made in the USA. Keep giving your dogs those Nalgene bones and keep taking your dogs to the vets for dental work… as to the use of preservatives of any kind, use common sense in judging the produce, you can’t get away from their use completely. Some of you people take this stuff way too far! I get a kick out of hearing how well you all feed and take care of your dogs and cats, and then leave them play by them selves with toys that were made in china, let them alone out in the yard that has been sprayed with lawn and garden insecticides, fertilizers, and poisonous plants, animals take in more toxins than they’d ever get from Milk Bones from just being in your home. Crap think of all the stuff you all just use on your carpets, cleaners that you use on your floors, ant and roach killers that you use under your counters. You all are taking this healthier food stuff way too far sometimes, hell a couple hot dogs are better than no food at all. Give them love, companionship, a place to live, food and medical care when they need it and most times they’ll live to a good old age. Do what you can afford for your animals, its better than them being out on the streets on their own.

[anonymously]

Did you check the search engine here? /forums/search/bladder+stones/

Excerpts from previous posts:

As your vet will confirm, dogs that have a tendency to make bladder stones have to be on a special diet the rest of their lives, this is a serious condition and it just doesn’t go away.

I would comply with the prescription food for now.
And don’t forget, water, water, and more water added to the diet. Ask the vet ….but I believe this helps big time. And frequent bathroom breaks, opportunities to urinate.

“My dog had both (struvite and calcium oxalate), no symptoms till the age of 11, started with UTIs. He has had no recurrences in 4 years since his emergency surgery.

“There is a genetic component and some breeds are more prone to bladder stones”.

“Anyway, if you do nothing else, add water and take her out to urinate frequently”.

PS: Soak the kibble, even the prescription food in water overnight in the fridg, add more water prior to serving. Keep the bladder flushed. Maybe add a little canned prescription food as a topper.

Don’t add supplements unless recommended by a veterinarian that has examined the dog.
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=cranberry

PS: Start brushing the teeth once a day, see YouTube for how to videos, small breeds tend to have lousy teeth.

[don h]

what would be the daily amount of vitamin c and cranberry supplements to give a 9lbs 8 month old puppy to lower urine ph and which dog food . She is on Merrick dry puppy kibbles now.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Jenn-

Wow! $50 for 8 lbs! That is way expensive, especially for long term feeding. Have you looked into the Balance IT website? You can formulate homemade recipes and use their supplements to balance them. I used it when my dogs had bad tummies a few weeks ago. I wasn’t sure how much chicken and pumpkin to give them so I used their site for help. Since then, I’ve printed a few recipes using ground turkey and ground beef with rice and veggies that I plan on feeding once a week. We’ll see if I follow through. 😬

My dogs also have had several rounds of antibiotics when puppies and have been sensitive ever since.

[crazy4cats]

You’re welcome. I also use Forti Flora once every week or two and Perfect Form if they get a bad belly or when transitioning to a new kibble. I’ve also used Gastriplex, Vetri Pro BD, Phytomucil, and Fruitables Digestive Supplement with pretty good success. Luckily, they’ve improved and I don’t have to use them much anymore.

Dogaware.com has some good info on this as well.

I hope you have success as well! 🐶

[anonymously]

“Thank you for posting so that I can see a neurologist and have knowledge”.
@ Susie:
I would start with a regular veterinarian, find one close to home, ask dog owners in your community who they go to/recommend.
She needs a senior workup, labs and exam to begin with.
What you describe sounds neurological, it is not recommended to give a dog with a neurological condition any vaccine, so just decline and remind them she is a senior and she is not medically stable if they bring it up.

Do not give over the counter meds or supplements to your pet unless recommended by a veterinarian that has examined her. You have no idea what you are treating and could make the situation worse. Especially with medications that are intended for humans.
First thing is to get her diagnosed by a veterinarian and then evaluate the treatment options that are presented. I wouldn’t make any diet changes right now either.

[Jenn H]

Thank you for that reply.
I haven’t yet researched the ingredients individually. Good to know that about slippery elm.
Maybe I’ll look into it as a supplement to use once/wk or month or just when she has a belly issue. I was just hoping it would prevent future episodes.

Thanks again.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Jenn H-
I also think that THK’s Perfect Form is marvelous! My dogs have sensitive tummies and I use this supplement intermittently. I also considered using it long term, but after research, I came to the conclusion that the slippery elm in it can over time hinder with nutrient absorption. So, no, I wouldn’t recommend it.

[Jenn H]

Does anyone have a dog with IBD and tried using Perfect Form long term to treat/prevent flare ups?
I have a GSD who was doing very well for 7 months. Then suddenly she had 2 flare ups in 1 month.
The vet put her on Purina Fortiflora permanently. She’s also on a i/d and boiled chicken until I decided whether or not to try Royal Canin Ultamino. I’m reluctant because it’s almost $50 for 8 lbs. That’s way beyond my affordability. I would literally have to get another job to afford it. (I would do anything for her so that’s not as much of a big deal except there aren’t enough hrs in the day to work more and still take care of all the animals.)

Perfect Form worked instantly on another dog I have who was vomiting & had diarrhea for a couple of days. I was amazed.
Because it’s for GI upset and says it’s for GI support and bowel health I was wondering I anyone has tried it long term with a dog that has chronic gastroenteritis/IBD.
My hesitation is that I don’t want to cause a flare up or new problems. At the same time if this is the miracle supplement that will finally give her permanent relief I don’t want to deny her of it.

[InkedMarie]

Let me throw a cheaper option: order grinds from Hare Today, Reel Raw, Raw Feeding Miami, etc. I buy grinds with meat/bone/organ/some have tripe…I add a scoop of tripe to those that don’t. It’s prey model raw in ground form. I add eggs 3x weekly, salmon oil & stuff for fleas/ticks and a joint supplement. All you need is a scale!

[HoundMusic]

I’m a newbie to these forums, but am no novice to raw feeding – been doing raw in some form, either 100% or as a supplement for about 15yrs now. Since 2014, its been an all raw, prey model type diet consisting mostly of chicken quarters pork meat and neck bones, a variety of organ meats (but mostly beef liver), ground beef, egg yolks, turkey necks and occasional meats like lamb ribs, fish or ground turkey. They also get “extras” and leftovers that amount to a small portion of the diet.

That aside, I’ve been noticing all summer that Toby, an intact male Beagle who will be 11yrs in October, hasn’t seemed in the greatest health, but there was nothing specific I could point my finger at, so I chalked it up to age. Fleas have been plaguing him, which made me further suspect something was wrong, especially after treatment did very little to help.

Over the past few days, the fleas have been back with a vengeance untold, and this morning, out of the blue, Toby came back in from the yard, lay down in a corner, and wouldn’t get up. There were no other symptoms, just a sudden lameness that seemed to pass in a few minutes. But it was very worrying, and he seems to have lost some weight in the past few days, so I decided it was Vet time. That, and in May, he had a partial obstruction from a pork neck bone, and the Vet told me then the only abnormality of the blood test results was “elevated liver enzymes”. So of course, my first thought is possible liver failure going on here :/

It was no fun finding a Vet on Labor Day, let me tell you, but we seemed to get a competent one, for once. I did NOT mention Toby is raw fed, btw. Another CBC was done, and like before, everything came back smack in the middle of normal – except, his ALP levels (alkaline phosphatase) were once again high (@ 228). But with no other signs of liver abnormalities in the blood results, this Vet was as stumped as the first one was as to why it should be elevated, unless it was osteomalacia, which he said was odd in a dog Toby’s age.

When I asked what precisely that was, the Vet told me I already knew it by a more common name. Rickets. Or rather, it’s technically called rickets before the growth plates close, and osteomalacia is the adult version.

I may have emitted an expletive, because how else can a dog get rickets, save for a home made diet that has been lacking in Vitamin D? I haven’t had the greatest luck with Vets in my life, but I was grateful that when I did mention raw feeding, all I got was the Knowing Look, an admonition that Toby would not be the first raw fed dog he’d seen with rickets (!!!), and a prescription for Vitamin D tablets for dogs. He did not try to push kibble on me or say another word about raw… he didn’t need to 🙁

Don’t have the faintest idea where we’re going from here, but Toby is on his Vit D and does not seem to be holding the incident against me. I’ve had my stumbling blocks with raw in the past, which is why I usually limited it to supplementation, but this has to be the worst problem I’ve ever had diagnosed. And honestly, if not for the strain put on his health with the fleas, I would never have noticed anything out of the ordinary with this dog. He seemed perfectly healthy otherwise.

So. Just blowing off some steam at the day’s events, my own stupidity, and thought this might be interesting fodder for other raw feeders. And btw, I am told that bad teeth can be a dead giveaway symptom of rickets, as well, and yet, Toby has the best teeth out of everybody…

• This topic was modified 9 years, 7 months ago by HoundMusic.

[anonymously]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=allergies
Science Based Veterinary Medicine

Hope this helps

PS: Nothing is being sold at that site, no supplements, no books, nothing.

[Joseph w]

Let me give u a couple examples why an article from a board certified veterinary dermatologists means absolutely nothing g to me when Uve talks to let owners who have been dealing with their dig for years and found these cures to work. Recently I went to a urologist, I got a referal from my primary because I needed a specialist. I had done probably my 3 days of research on the matter and when I was examined it was obvious I knew much much .it’s about my disease than this so called specialist who had gone to med school for 8 years. Not because he wasn’t smart but because it was my body, and I had Adamantly pursued what was wrong, what medicine I needed and what should be done from all types of sources. I then found the best specialist in the state and after speaking g with him I got another referal. Example 2- I am a computer networker I recently ran into a complex problem with my personal computer that I dint know how to fix right away. Someone who had researched this exact problem from multiple sources for 2 days could have figured out the problem- does this mean they know more than me after years of school? Example 3- The last couple months we’ve been thinking bodger had a thyroid issue and took him in to get a blood test. It turned out negative and the vet thought it was cushings disease which I’d never heard of. Before his LDDS test iiterally research for prob 6 a day for a week- forums, fb groups, Yahoo groups- (the majority of these people are pet owners who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject and have been dealing with this stuff for over a decade and probably more knowledgeable than most vets.) I read articles of all shapes and sizes, punished reports and journals, called the o my place in the country that does a pituitary tumor operation and talked to one of the best IMS on my side of the state. Anyway needless to say after a week I knew much .ore on the subject than my vet when we had his test and it came back negative she just said “ohp he’s all better nothing wrong with him” I believe it was a unique type of Cushing’s and have an appt with a ISP. Point is because your knowlegable In A subject and do it for a living In No way means your right or even have the faintest I would in a heartbeat give pet owners who have lived this day In and day out for years with their loved one just like I did when I spoke with people whos own body it was. But like I said I whole heardjust disagree but will continue ue to research what you said. I’m going g to call my IMS and the u iveristy who does the operation and a very good dermatoligist in a nearby city who I’ve already spoken with on Monday and I will post here what they say. We are also doing a skin allergy test next month and I have no knowledge of those but I was told by one person a forum they can be unreliable and when I was checking out different pet foods around town today I went to local co-op and talked to a lady who worked there who has had terrible yeast problems with her dog for years. She told me she’s spent thousands and different vets and IMS and nothing worked and she has tried dozens of foods doing tests trying g to find out what he was allergic to and the test they did to find out what he was allergic to turned out to be garbage. I kinda had 2 points there- I talked to 2 people who said the allergy tests didn’t work and 1 person who said the test of Ingredients trial and error didn’t work-study this by no means means anything though- just one person’s experience. Anyway after everything she tried she stu k with avaderm for the last couple years, a. Couple months ago she bought pre/pro biotics supplement to add to the food and within 2weeks there was a noticeable difference and within 6weeks he was perfect. Nothing changed except the addition of the final enzymes. In Case ur wondering she wasn’t trying to sell me anything – they didn’t sell the supplement there she was just telling g me her story. Anyway Im done rangting, I. Exhausted and I hope u can read this as my auto correct is going nuts. Have a good evening and I will report back.

[Joseph w]

I will respectfully disagree. I am completley open minded though and continue to read on the subject. I want my dog to get well and if that means everything I learned and I’m wrong so be it but I really, really dont believe this. I’ve talked to many professionals- IMS and dermatoligists, read many articles and most importantly talked to many, many knowlegable pet owners who have gone through years of trial and error with yeast problems and have tried for instance to removee starch, or grains or sugars or just use ACV or just probiotics, or just coconut oil, and weeks later a years long horrible problem are gone. I’m sure placebo effect right? The people I’ve talked to, myself included aren’t someone who just reads an article or talks to one person and takes it for gospel. There’s so much more supporting what I believe than what you say. What matters more, that there has been a limited number of scientific studys with incliclusive results and something hasn’t been scientifically proven or its reversed effects for thousands if dog owners who live and care for their pets and with them every second if the day and seen there lives change because of these cures. I’m getting wysong starch free kibble and a probiotic supplement for internal and outwardly using ACV and coconut oil and I firmly believe that in 3 months Bodger will be doing wonderful.

[Joseph w]

My dig has bad yeast infections and I’m looking for a good supplement to use with a good source of pro/pre biotics

[crazy4cats]

If the canned Nature’s Logic states that it is balanced and complete, you would not need to use any supplements. It is fine on its own. If it states that it is supplemental only, then it is not fine to feed on its own, only should be fed as a topper or meal mixer.

You should probably contact the company to find out if you are not sure.

[Joseph w]

I have a 4 year old bull terrier names Bodger. He is normally 65lbs but the last year he shot up to 72lbs. We lowered his food intake to 1 cup a day but he wasn’t losing any weight so we took him in for a blood test thinking he had a thyroid issue but it turned out negative and we suspect he has iiatrogenic Cushing’s from off and in use of prednisone for use with his skin issues. Now that we can no longer use prednisone we are trying to figure out a good diet for him. We use to use homemade raw which possibly worked better than what we have him on now but if it did it was slight. Before raw his normal food was Arcana or Orijen. It is now Avaderm which is the best he’s had since raw but we are no longer able to afford raw. One if his main skin problems is yeast infections on his feet constantly, ears somewhat often and around his anus sometimes and very rarely around mouth and eyes. I need a non yeast/starch/sugar/grain/ low carb kibble, with probiotics Which I plan in supplementing with a whole slew of home remedies and iver the counter products I’ve been researching. I was looking at wellness Tru food and it meets almost all the criteria except has about 40% carbs. Any ideas?