[pugmomsandy]

Article from the Raw Feeding Community called Digest This: Kibble May Actually Digest Faster than Raw.

http://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2015/01/08/digest-this-kibble-may-actually-digest-faster-than-raw/

[Dori]

Hi Kelly. My suggestion would be do go completely grain free. Avoid poultry and all the night shade plants some of which are white potatoes, tomatoes. Just google night shade plants. They are all inflammatory and you want to avoid them. You also want to avoid soy. Also, as Cheryl stated, rice is also inflammatory. You need to remove as many inflammatory ingredients from your dogs diet. My 15 year old 7 lb. Maltese, Hannah, tended to have high liver levels and is also on Denamarin daily. Her regular vet had prescribed 1/2 tablet a day but the specialist I took her to (at the recommendation of her regular vet) so that we could rule out any issues going on told me to give her a whole tablet once a day for the rest of her life. I’m sure you are aware that it must be given 1 to 1/2 hours before meals. Not with the meal. I also give her 200 mg. of vitamin E (soy free) once a day (also prescribed by both the specialist and Hannah’s vet). Mercola.com is the only company that has a vitamin E without soy that I have been able to find. When I originally went grain free Brothers Complete was what I was feeding but had to stop feeding their foods because all their foods include turkey or chicken in them and one of my dogs (I have three toy dogs) is intolerant of all poultry (all fowl). For the most part back around 3 years ago I switched to THK Zeal (only one of their formulas I could find that didn’t contain any poultry). I then added commercial raw diets to their diets. I feed rotational within brands and also different brands. The Honest Kitchen Zeal is still in rotation. I also feed some Freeze Dried foods. Hannah’s liver levels have come down considerably and just a shade above normal. They were crazy high awhile back.

[Dori]

Recommended dose for small dogs up to 25 lbs. (and cats) is 1/2 to 1 scoop daily. It comes with it’s own scoop. I add 1/2 scoop once a day on their breakfast meal. I think it actually took about 8 weeks before I saw any improvement. No, I’ve kept to the 1/2 scoop only per day. I was concerned that since the measurement for small dogs goes from 1/2 to 1 scoop up to 25 lbs. and my dogs are 5, 6 and 7 lbs. I thought going up might be too much for them. I could be totally wrong. The medium size for dogs is 25 – 50 lbs. and that’s 1 – 2 scoops so I stuck with the 1/2 scoop. I think you should certainly just start with the 1/2 scoop. If you go above that after 8 weeks or so, please let me know if you noticed any gastrointestinal differences. I’ve just been afraid to do it.

By the way, what raw foods are you feeding Bentley? So glad you went completely raw with him. What differences have you seen with him now that he’s been on raw for four months there must be plenty. 🙂

[Akari_32]

He’s on a completely raw diet now and has been for a good while now. I guess about 4 months. Seems longer… Lol

How much of that stuff do you put over your dogs food? They’re about the same size as Bentley, so it should give me a pretty good idea of what to expect. I think the website said something like 4 weeks, but if you don’t see an improvement in 8 weeks to use a little more each feeding.

[Dori]

Ok Akari. I know what you mean about their not drinking much water on raw. I hadn’t realized Bentley was an almost all raw diet. Now it makes sense.

There are two sizes of the Pro Dent Plaque Off. I bought the larger size because it was more of a savings and I use it every day on all three dogs. It does take a number of weeks (I forget how many…it says it on the side of the container) before you see improvement. It does a pretty decent job. I brush all three dogs teeth but I find that the Plaque Off does help. I hope it works for all your dogs. Have a great weekend.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl,

Yes I do know how you feel about your babies. I was like this even when my son was alive. (He passed away a little over eight years ago at the age of 22). He used to refer to the dogs as his sisters (we had Hannah then who’s 15 now and we another dog, a Tibetan Terrier named Tracy. She passed two months before Matthew did). Sorry I only mention in because though I no longer have children, my dogs have always been my babies and family members so I get exactly where you’re coming from. Of course, my personality makes me research everything like crazy, add to that that I’m a Virgo and you get the picture. I never believed much in the silliness of horoscopes other than to read them in the morning papers years ago but as I’ve gotten older I realize I’m pretty much everything they say about Virgo’s. Go figure???? If you’re uncomfortable and nervous about the raw food, then you should probably wait until Monday morning when your vet is open again. It’s in your freezer so it’s not like it’s going to go bad or anything.

I also agree with your reasoning on the possibility of holding off on getting a puppy. It may very well be a bit disconcerting to Pepper. I’ve forgotten how old both your dogs are. Also, is it going to be too much on you. When we brought Lola and Katie into our home (they are 5 now) Hannah was 10 years old and it took her a very long time to adjust to the two new girls. I was surprised because she’s never had problems in the past. I can only think that either it was her age or she just liked being the Queen with no subjects below her. lol! Who knows really. Sometimes it works out perfectly fine. I just don’t know how Pepper’s blindness would affect her having a little squirmy puppy running amok in the house as the do. You’d really be the best judge as to her temperament and stress coping skills. Have a good weekend yourself. It’s cold here in Atlanta but I’m thankful that the sun is out. In the Summer I’m always wishing that the sun would go away.

[Akari_32]

Dori, Bentley doesn’t drink much water since we switched him to canned and then raw. He takes a few laps every couple days or so, maybe even once a week.

I’m gunna look into that ProDent stuff and see how the prices are. If it goes over the food, I can give it to all the furry creatures if it’s cost effective.

Cheryl, I wash the dogs and cat bowls after every meal. Bentley gets raw, Ginger gets wetted dry and the cat gets canned.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Aimee:
Thanks for doing the math. One thing, I think the info Jake’s mom posted was for the cat pre-mix raw, not positive though. Hopefully JM will be by to confirm. The thread was originally started for info on dog pre-mixes; in an earlier post to me she wrote she bought the raw and cooked pre-mixes for her cats. I don’t think she bought a pre-mix for Jake yet.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Hi Dori,
It’s funny about feeding raw, & what the term implies.
The orijen freeze dried, I just opened & crushed & gave her, yet the thought of opening commercial raw freaks me out, i keep asking should i wait should i introduce it after this bag of Orijen is finished? Very silly I know.
These babies are my kids, since I have no children, I worry so-some may not understand, but, I feel you do.
The breeder called me & told me she just had another litter with 4 females-do I want another, I am so tempted to say yes to give Millie a pal her own age,but fear it would be way too much for pepper to handle,since getting Millie in Oct., its been hard on Pepper her age & add the blindness, I keep going back & forth.
Anyway, I digress, oh yes I agree with you I never never introduce anything at night, believe it or not, i don’t even like introducing anything over the weekend, when the vets are off.
I dislike the ER here, cost a fortune of money & not very nice.
I just ordered the Pro Den on Amazon, i will try it on pepper.
I am hoping to cut down on pepper’s dose of reglan next week since she seems to be ok on the Honest Kitchen-she had the turkey this am & I upped the protein with some beef-made her bowl so shiny almost didn’t have to clean it!!!
you have good weekend

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. The only one of Primal’s actual raw foods that has a heavy fat to protein ratio is the beef but I believe that is true of all raw foods. I feed rotation to my three dogs so none of that bothers me and as I have said so often a every single food that you feed your dogs does not have to be complete and balanced. Balanced and complete has to be met over the long haul. If you are feeding a meal that is not complete and balanced in a rotational feeding plan, you don’t have to worry so long as the other meals, or at least most other foods in rotation, are complete and balanced. As you do your due diligence and research into feeding raw, whether it is commercial raw or home made raw, not every single meal has to be complete and balanced.

The ingredient in Pro Den Plaque Off for animals is dried seaweed meal, that it. Why or how it works I don’t really know. I’ve used it for quite a while in addition to brushing my dogs teeth daily. It seems to help. How much? I can’t really say but as it is not an ingredient that any of my dogs are sensitive or intolerant of I continue to use it daily in their morning meals. When I add or offer any new ingredient, supplement or food to my dogs I always do it in their a.m. meal. I don’t give anything new in their dinner meal. I don’t want to deal with any issues or surprises in the middle of the night.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Pugmomsandy,
Yes I do add water to the patty – & it becomes mushy I add a few cooked carrots . Does it matter that I rehydrate the patty?
I am so nervous to feed raw – but if it is good for MILLIE it’s got to be good for me.

Thank you for the plaque info
I have a spray called denta sure but pepper doesn’t like something sprayed in her mouth so I put it on a gauze pad works just so so

[jakes mom]

Well I hesitate to post anything else here but I just got the KBPF and thought I’d list the ingredients for anyone who’s interested. It’s been a bad weather week in Ohio, lots of long commutes and snow shoveling and below zero temps so I have not had a chance to buy any meat to make the mixes. I have a few days off next week so will give it a shot then.
For the Better in the Raw mix: egg yolk, calcium lactate, beef liver powder, gelatin, whey protein, psyllium husks, EFA from fish oil, taurine, kelp, barley grass, Vitamin E succinate, Vitamin B complex.
Nutritional info based on “as fed” mixed food using ground chicken (average daily meal size 1/4 lb) :
energy 133 kcal
protein 17.29%
carb 1.2%
fat 6.0%
ash 3.19%
calcium 231 mg
phos 74 mg
mg 74 mg
sodium 144 mg
Potassium 201 mg
The U-stew mix for cooked meat has the same ingredients as above plus digestive enzymes.
The company suggests turkey, chicken, beef, venison, lamb or pork with 20% or less fat content.

[theBCnut]

I have heard someone mention it as a whole food vitamin to add to homemade raw, just to make sure your bases are covered. I would feel better about it if their “GA” was very different than their food, but the fact that it is the same makes me think they haven’t actually run an analysis on it.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. When I switched my three girls from kibble to commercial raw foods (I started with Primal Pronto Beef) about three years ago I never did a transition period and none of them had any gastrointestinal upsets. I’ve never looked back. I no longer remember who told me to just go “cold turkey” and do it and so I did. Many friends have asked my advice on making the transition to raw I have to tell them I never transitioned. I just fed them the raw. Of course, it took me a while to get up the nerve to do it, and me being me, I researched everything to death for months and months and months. Then one day just got my nerves together and just did it. I had the food in the freezer for a couple of weeks before I was brave enough to do it. It seems so funny to me now that I was so nervous about the concept of feeding raw. Good Luck, you’ll be fine and like me wondering what the big fuss was all about. Which Primal did you get, by the way?

Pro Den Plaque Off. Some local pet food stores carry it but a lot of on line sites carry it also. I usually order from Amazon. Follow directions for the size of your dog and just sprinkle it on your dogs food once a day.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Dori.

[pugmomsandy]

Cheryl – I bought it online. If she’s already eating Orijen freeze dried patty which is raw, then she should be able to transition to frozen raw. Do you rehydrate the Orijen? I only wash the dog bowls once a week…maybe. And I use the same bowl for kibble, canned, raw, etc. In the beginning, the bowls got washed after each meal. But that was 3 yrs ago or so.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[Kristin C]

Hey Cheryl – I’m partly responding so I can opt out of yet another post. But, if it was me I would feed a small amount as a treat for a few days to see how she tolerates the new raw food. Once you’re confident with that then I would feed her a breakfast meal of it (or lunch too I guess). I wouldn’t suggest trying anything new for an evening meal in case it upsets her. It’s not fun to wake up in the middle of the night to a barfing dog:) Good luck to you.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Commercial Raw Feeders,
I could use some help.
Just got some primal Raw for my puppy Millie.
I took a big girl breadth , my questions how do i go about introducing this into Millie’s diet?
Give a tiny amt. alone? I still feed her 3x a day-her noon meal is an orijen freeze dried patty-do u think I should switch w the primal?
Can she eat the primal in her regular bowl or should I get her another stainless bowl?
I am sorry if I sound a bit “out there” have never ever done this-just worried about Millie
Thanks all in advance.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori & KristenC
I am so sorry this thread took a turn like this-esp since I just recently started posting again (unfortunately this is exactly why I took a long break from posting on this site-happened before)
I too, feed the complete mixes and the grain-free base mixes yes only for a few weeks, but believe me if any fur-kid would have visible food coming out,it would be pepper, & so far, I agree with you Dori thank god I see nothing-I am amazed.Not to repeat myself ,but, pepper loves the food.
I probably will only offer it to Millie as a topper since she is a puppy.
I,too hope we can all chat on another thread.
I just got the Primal Raw-HELP, I got the surgical gloves out, should I feed Millie in a different bowl then she gets her other food?? Please tell me what thread to find you gals on! how do I introduce it to millie-so many questions so much stress 🙁

[Naturella]

Anita, even though your vet said to do that, the kibble size will do nothing to help clean your dog’s teeth. It is like cleaning our molars with large cookies.

What you can do is try to get your dog used to brushing. You can start with putting some coconut oil or dog toothpaste on your finger and let your dog lick it, then slowly get it used to you rubbing it on his/her teeth with your finger, and little by little move to a rubber brush that you put on your finger, or a real dog toothbrush. Since you have to get in the back of the mouth, it won’t be easy, but it’s really the best way to keep their teeth clean, and you need to do it daily, or at least a few times a week.

Another alternative is feeding raw meaty bones, like chicken necks, feet, wings, legs, etc., or pork/beef riblets and neck bone pieces. Always supervise while your dog is eating those and make sure she/he crushes them up well and is not gulping them. You can feed those a couple times a week, but make sure the amount is no more than 20-25% of your dog’s balanced diet. And no cooked bones.

Hope this helps! 🙂

[theBCnut]

In raw diets, they may be getting a meal from the same type of meat source multiple times a week and at a higher concentration of meat, since kibbles are typically at the very least 1/3 carbs. And yes, heat destroys thyroid hormone.

I honestly don’t know if in fowl the glands are not present, in a different location, or removed during processing, but I have also read that it is not an issue.

[Akari_32]

So I cought a glimpse of Bentleys teeth this morning, so I lifted his lip and was surprised at what I saw!

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/077416C7-F70B-438D-AA01-3103924E0BC1_zpsqjap1hr2.jpg

I can’t believe his teeth are this yucky still after having been on raw for so long. He really doesn’t get much ground, most of it is large pieces of meat and sometimes little chunks, and he gets a bone about once a week. I mean, his teeth aren’t terrible, but they aren’t fantastic, either. Weird. I’ve got a lot of chews for him that I just got from PetFlow, so I’ll make sure he’s always got something to gnaw on and see if his teeth clean up at all.

[Akari_32]

Aimee, is there a way of knowing what pre-mix it was that the dog was fed? This has been something that concerns me with Bentleys such strict no-to-very-low carb needs and the fact that SSLL is the only affordable mix that meets his needs. I so wish I could find at least one other to rotate with, or be able to do complete raw, but cost and local availability do not allow me to do that on both fronts.

At least I have no problems with THK– Bentley doesn’t like it LOL Haley and Dweezle are currently getting less than a cup mixed between them in their kibble most nights though. I have a box that I forgot about that expires in February. Whoops! LOL

It’s interesting you say how well your one dog does on Pro Plan. I’ve used it several times in the past (coupons, you know lol) and I also can’t deny the results I see with Haley and Dweezle. However, it’s not something I use often because A) it’s Purina and I’m really not a huge fan, despite how it may seem, and B) Haley drops weight like she hasn’t eaten in months on foods with too much corn in them, and she drops it fast, so I have to pay attention to which ones I buy. It’s easer for me to just not buy it (at least not in bulk). Takes away the guess work lol

[heather t]

I have been trying to research this issue because I have 2 questions that I can’t find the answers to. 1. Why are they discussing this only in reference to raw diets. I am sure the same parts of the animals are being ground up in meat and bone meal for kibble. Does the extra processing/cooking eliminate the problem? and 2. I saw in one place that chicken, duck and turkey necks are not an issue. I can’t seem to find this confirmed or explained anywhere. I am so glad people are on top of this stuff now!

[InkedMarie]

I cannot help at all, except to mention this: you can purchase, for Forest, pre made raw or just ground. I use ground from Hare Today; Tracy, the owner, is very helpful. She may be able to help with the medical issues he has.

[aimee]

Kristin,

I believe dogs are quite flexible and do well on a variety of nutritional approaches so I agree there isn’t one right way. What is most important to me is the the dog’s needs are met.

So when I read of cases like the Sheltie pup who was raised on pre mix and raw and suffered severe nutritional disease it concerns me. Do companies know what they are doing? I don’t know that they do….

My second dog has Mast Cell disease . I hope your dog does well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366336 Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef

[aimee]

Kristin,

You asked what my background was so I told you. I don’t give my dogs cattle or hog feed either LOL and I agree in my effort to explain I get too wordy. I don’t understand what you mean by this “The information you provide and your approach is not supportive” but that is ok.

I do advocate for meeting a dog’s nutritional needs when feeding them.

Edit:Currently Brooke is on Annamaet Lean as her base but she has been on it about 8 weeks and her coat is looking dull. I’ll prob rotate back to Purina Pro Plan weight management. I’ve also used Wellness Core reduced fat and EVO weight management too. She maintains the best coat on Purina. For toppers I add fresh and sometime commercial. Currently I have Primal raw, Stella and Chewy freeze dried and Pro Plan canned in the house.

For Jack, the crested in my pic he eats RC venison and potato, as his base along some Hill’s V and P canned with fresh and some Primal and some Stella and Chewy venison. He’s the reason those brands are in the house: ).

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by aimee.

[aimee]

Dori,

I ‘ll be happy to discuss THK or anything I post about. I agree with you that their customer service is very responsive but CS hands are tied by the overall lack of nutritional knowledge of the company as a whole.

I think I covered the “kickback” thing. Marking up a product isn’t a kickback. Income stream from selling foods in a vet hospital EH… minor at best… It isn’t worth a vet’s time to sell pet food, his/her time is better spent in the surgery room! Considering the small volume of food sold and taking into account overhead and theft it is likely a bit of a wash. Someplace on Dr. Wynn’s vet blog she addressed this topic as her accountant said stop selling therapeutic diets, it is too much of an income drain!!

Sure vets get volume discounts on food as does anyplace buying the diets but again that isn’t a “kickback” and the volume they deal with in general is so small compared to a large retailer. If vet offices sell food I don’t see it as primarily income related I see it as providing a product they have had success with and trying to increase client contact. If they break even woo hoo!

Ok.. Why I wouldn’t currently recommend THK. On its most basic level I expect a diet when fed as directed to meet my dog’s nutritional needs. I first looked at THK when a poster posted about all the “sticks” in the product. I looked at the profile for the product she was posting about, Preference, and using the information they posted and their feeding directions I ran calculations. When fed to my dog Preference didn’t meet NRC rec or AAFCO min recommended amounts. This alarmed me!

In fact I immediately contacted THK, especially as Preference was being marketed on their website as being appropriate for feeding puppies!. To their credit after I contacted them they removed the information and feeding recommendations for puppies from their website within days. BUT why did it take someone with minimal nutritional training ( that would be me) to point out to them that their food is deficient? They acknowledged I was right by removing the puppy feeding recommendations but why still market it to adults? What about the adults eating the diet? Don’t they care about them as well?

I’ll run through a calculation with you. I’m going to feed my dog Brooke who weighs 68 lbs Preference. I’m to feed her 3/4 cup mix and 1 1/2 cups meat using their active dog recommendations.

The Vit E content of Preference is 70 IU/kg as received, Calories/kg 3510 and Cal/cup 333. From the caloric information 1 cup has .095 kgs of food and 3/4 cup is .071 kg Preference.

.071 kg of food X 70 IU/kg = 5 IU of Vit E in 3/4 cup Preference. NRC rec amt for Vit E is 1 mg/kg body weight to the 3/4 power. Brooke is 68 lbs = ~31kg. To calculate bw to the 3/4 power multiple bw three times and square root twice. 31X 31X 31= 29,791, take the square root twice = 13. Brooke’s body weight in kg to the 3/4 power is 13 and NRC rec Vit E is 13 mg Vit E of the alpha tocopherol form.

Now we have to convert IU vit E to mg vit E (alpha tocopherol) which is what NRC uses. The accepted conversion factor I found is 1 IU vit E = .45 mg alpha tocopherol So 5 IU Vit E x .45 mg/IU = 2.25 mg alpha tocopherol supplied by Preference. The Vit E content of the added 1 and 1/2 cup 85% lean ground beef is .58 mg Vit E from the USDA nutrient database, I’m estimating 1.5 cups as 12 oz. 0.58 mg from meat plus 2.25 mg from the mix = total Vit E fed 2.84 mg. Preference provided about 20% the NRC recommended daily amount of Vit E. This is why I don’t recommend Preference, it doesn’t meet needs.

I’ll compare Preference to AAFCO on an energy basis. AAFCO rec Vit E is 50 IU/kg and a kg of food is defined as 3,500 kcals 50 IU/3,500kcals x 1000 = 14.2 IU/1000 kcals.

I was recommended to feed 3/4 cup Preference which gave me 5 IU Vit E and 250 kcals and 1 1/2 cup meat. 1.5 cups 85% ground beef from USDA database approx 731 kcals and .58 mg alpha tocopherol. I convert mgs Vit E from the beef to IU and I get~ 1.3 IU Total Vit E fed 6.3 IU and total calories 981 kcals 6.3IU/981 kcals x 1000 = 6 .4 IU/1000 kcals. AAFCO Min is 14.2 IU/1000kcals so Preference provides less than half the min AAFCO Vit E requirement according to their posted nutritional information.

Dori, I hope you can now see that using the information provided by THK and adding meat to the pre mix it does not meet either AAFCO or the NRC recommended min levels for Vit E.

Now let’s look at their complete diets, are they complete and balanced? Go to their site and pull up the nutritional information for Keen. The posted content of Vit E is 23.45 mg/kg DM and their posted arginine content is 0.06% DM. Compare that to AAFCO. AAFCO min Vit E content for maint is 50 IU/kg DM and arginine AAFCO min is .51% DM. It really is as simple as that…. 23.45 IU/kg is less than AAFCO requirement of 50 IU/kg and 0.06 % is far far less than .51%. But consider that KEEN caloric content is reported as 4524/kg and AAFCO requires any diet over 4000 kcals/kg to be corrected. The correction is simple 4524/3500 x 50 = 64.6 IU/kg. A diet with KEEN’s caloric density requires 64.6 IU Vit E/kg and THK says there is 23.45 IU/kg. The company reports that their diet has only 36% the amount that AAFCO requires. THK is saying that their diet is not “complete and balanced” b AACo nutrient profile.

Diet after diet, nutrient after nutrient the information that THK posts doesn’t meet AAFCO

Have I reported them? The company on one hand says it is complete and balanced and on the other says it is not. For a feed control official to take action I think a nutrient analysis would need to be done to settle the question and a full analysis can cost thousands. I don’t have that kind of money to donate to the cause. I asked THK if their nutritional analysis are accurate and they said they are. I asked how they can say their diet are complete and balanced. They say they are. Both statements can not be true. Either the nutritional information is wrong or some diets are not complete and balanced. I don’t know which is true. The company said it didn’t have time to investigate it, but would get back to me. It has been over 6 months…Is that good customer service?? I’ve been waiting over 6 months for the company to answer as to how it can say their diets are complete and balanced when the information they post does not meet AAFCO.

I found a similar situation with Grandma Lucy’s, they say the diet is complete and balanced but they report that the Phos max is .45% which is below AAFCO min. I did report Grandma Lucy’s to the feed control official. Grandma Lucy’s printed their nutritional information on the package in their guaranteed analysis so the feed control official didn’t need to run an analysis. The food is misbranded: the label can’t say that it meets AAFCO while guaranteeing that the food is below AAFCO. So the official in my state placed a stop sale order on Grandma Lucy’s. Does that mean it isn’t being sold? Of course not!! The feed control official can’t be there 24 /7 in every little boutique that chooses to violate the law. Does the company care? They gave me the same line as THK; Our diets are complete and balanced. I’ve been waiting over 9 months for them to tell me actual Phos level in their foods.They said they should have the information sometime in 2015

People tend to buy food on an emotional basis. THK is very good at appealing to emotions: “human grade”, “whole food”, “non GMO” etc. They excel in it… I’m analytical.. I like numbers and data. I like things to be consistent and this company is full of inconsistencies. They say the food is “never cooked”…. but they “heat” to high temps. How is that not cooked? I asked THK but they wouldn’t answer. It isn’t raw… yet their phone number is “4 dry raw” and Lucy Postins says right on the video that it is raw. If you use their as received nutrient data the DM protein content is 21.85% for Keen but if you use their as served data it is 40% protein DM basis. They say the diet is highly digestible but expect your dog to poop three to five times a day. That’s normal… Really?? Normal for your dog to poop 3-5 times a day with undigested whole hunks of celery and sweet potato and alfalfa in it? They haven’t ever done any type of digestibility trials, how do they know it is highly digestible… they told me they know it is because raw foods are highly digestible… but wait… they told me their food isn’t raw. Do they have a nutritionist Nope… have they ever had a nutritionist review their diets? Nope. Since the company doesn’t use any nutritionists does it surprise me that their diets wouldn’t be balanced and they can’t do simple nutritional calculations… Nope

I see this company as a marketing company. They appeal to people who evaluate foods on an emotional basis only which is pretty much everybody! They say it is not cooked to appeal to raw feeders and they say it is heat processed to appeal to those that don’t like raw. How can it be both?? According to the nutritional information the company posts and depending on the diet their diets may not meet the most basic thing that a food should, which is meet the nutritional needs of the pet. As long as you don’t feed it consistently it should be fine. But why pay a premium price a food that comes out as it goes in? And why support a company that promotes feeding unbalanced diets to pets ?

Dori I hope this explains to you why I can’t currently recommend this company.

[Kim S]

Shawna thank you so much for replying! I have a dog that I rescued in July and she is about 1-1 1/2, has chronic ehrlichiosis, demodex and is in chronic renal failure due to renal dysphasia. She has survived longer than expected and seems to have a strong will to live. I have been researching quite a bit and have started acupuncture. I am working on trying to get her on a better diet but the vets are not crazy about the raw diet because she has such a poor immune system. They are researching the diet from Just For Dogs Food. I have started her on the Standard Process Renal Support and I am having a plumber install a reverse osmosis water filter system. She is on a pro-biotic also. She takes pressure meds and I put aluminum hydroxide powder in her food along with Nordic Omega 3. Her Potassium was normal this week but her BUN is back up to 57 and her phosphate is 8. I saw that the sprinkle fiber helps with the nitrogen. How much do you give her? Any other suggestions for the phosphate?

[Shawna]

OH NO!!! Pegripley and Kari K — I’m so sorry I missed your posts!!! My time is somewhat limited and for a long time I wasn’t able to log in to the forum side. Still don’t know why that happened?? If you still having questions please email me at [email protected]

Kim S – I use the Sprinkle Fiber in conjunction with the Primal Defense probiotic as needed (if Audrey seems depressed, or her breath gets a bit unpleasant etc). Audrey is nine pounds — I give her 1/2 to 1 full sized Primal Defense and 1/8 teaspoon of Sprinkle Fiber. I then give her more Sprinkle Fiber at the same dosage for subsequent meals until she is feeling better (usually, with her, only two or three meals). Audrey gets probiotic foods fairly often so I usually don’t have to give her more than one Primal Defense.

As mentioned in other post — I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support as well. And a raw diet if doable. Dr. Barbara Royal created a raw kidney disease diet for Darwins. http://www.darwinspet.com/our-raw-foods/our-raw-dog-food/intelligent-design-ks/#sthash.D8huiK2g.dpbs

[Shawna]

Hi Kim S,

Pugmomsandy sent me an email letting me know you might have some questions for me. Thanks Sandy!!

Nitrogen trapping has been very very useful in helping to keep Audrey feeling well. When her breath gets a bit funky or she seems depressed I give her Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotics and Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber as the probiotic (both are products marketed for humans). I tried other “fermentable” fibers (like barley, apple pectin etc) but Sprinkle Fiber had the best results.

The product I absolutely MUST have for her however is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. She’s been on it for over seven years. I can explain why I feel so strongly about this product if you wish — kinda technical.

Some other things that I rotate in her diet are spirulina, chlorella, food grade activated charcoal, burdock root (another really good fermentable fiber (but she got tired of the strong taste)), milk thistle and more. I mix five or so super foods/supps with an equal amount of enzymes and sprinkle on most of her meals.

Turmeric would be very beneficial for dogs with kidney disease as well but sadly Audrey doesn’t tolerate it well.

Giving ultra clean (like RO) water is important too. Evian water is both clean and a good source of a specific kind of calcium called calcium bicarbonate. Mineral waters higher in calcium (and lower in sodium) have shown some benefits for kidney disease.

I would recommend raw to any that can feed it, gently home cooked if raw is not an option or canned if raw and home cooked are not options.

Absolutely no chemicals like flea/tick or heartworm meds and no vaccines (including rabies).

I’m not sure how much info you’re wanting so sorry if I went overboard. 🙂 There’s tons more I can tell you if interested (like keep oil soluble chlorophyll on hand in case of anemia).

[DogFoodie]

I make bone broth, but it’s such a pain. Last time, I ended up with only about 12 ounces, but it was beautiful gelatinous stuff. I let it set and sliced it. It’s very concentrated so I mix a piece in with some hot water to pour over their food. The dogs love it. I used a big bag of chicken necks that I ordered from MPC. They were frozen together and had some freezer burn. Bone broth has tons of glucosamine and other healthy stuff.

Personally, I wouldn’t use the onion at all. My good friend’s Bichon died a slow, painful death from liver failure in October after eating a small amount of raw onions. Onion is more toxic than garlic. I’d save the onion for your soup. It’s not safe for your dog.

[Kristin C]

Akari-Re: Reel Raw, I bought one of their 10 lb beef mixes last summer and thought it looked quite fatty. I never emailed them to ask about the fat content though. So just a bit of info before you order 50 lbs. I do regularly order the smaller packages of novelty meats and the RMBs that I can’t get at my grocer and only feed those a few times per week.

[Kristin C]

Ok Aimee, take all the classes that you want but I don’t give my dog’s cattle or hog feed so now I know I don’t need to read your posts anymore. They are exhausting, like dealing with my narcissistic ex-sister-in-law. The information you provide and your approach is not supportive, but that’s just my opinion. If I was newer at this raw feeding thing, and completely unsure of what I was doing, you’d definitely scare me away from it.

[Daren S]

Hound Dog mom, thanks for all your info. I am quite confused after reading all this, vet info, breeder info etc. I am trying to choose a great puppy food and, once he’s full grown, a great adult food, preferably cooked frozen ……for my 5 month Bullmastiff puppy.

After all the reading and because I am not a big raw fan (will feed occasionally as a mix in) I think I prefer the cooked frozen diets as they are not as processed as dry kibble. Sounds like I should stick with the Wellness Large Breed dry puppy food (DFA 5 star) until he is full grown. Then maybe switch to a cooked Frozen food like Maverick’s Nature’s Kitchen (DFA 4.5 stars). I will always mix in healthy human foods, to have variety and excitement.

My bully is now 5 months and 80 lbs should grow to about 140 lbs.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. 🙂

[Kristin C]

I feed raw chicken backs and necks just as they come. I can’t imagine trying to grind them myself. If there is a lot of skin on the backs I’ll take some off. I usually feed some boneless muscle meat along with it, or feed a boneless grind in the evening to prevent constipation.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
They have never had a grain inclusive diet-always fed Pepper grain free.Millie too
Believe me I am so nuts, I see a little wax I go crazy.
Millie is the puppy and she is on the freeze dried raw & then the commercial raw.
Pepper the 11 1/2 y.o. is on the HK with cooked meats or turkey.
I am to much of a scared cat to put pepper on freeze dried or actual commercial raw due to its high fat content-I just think her system couldn’t handle the high fat-She is the 1 with IBD/IBS gastritis issues.
They have never had an oatmeal based shampoo either.
Schnauzers are known to be highly allergic to a great many things. When I first got Pepper 3 yrs ago ,I would cure 1 thing and then a noter thing would pop up.
Thanks for the info.
The girls are driving me crazy no walks today 20 degrees its just warmed up to 30 pepper hasn’t stopped walking around crying.
Stay warm

[Cait Y]

Ok so I have lurked here for a little over a year, and recently started making my own raw cat food via Lisa A. Pierson, DVM because one of my boys almost died after getting into the Dry food AGAIN and his whole GI system blocked up because he cannot handle the lack of fluids in dry food. He is such a picky eater that I had put off the raw diet dreading that he would turn his nose up at it like he did the other high quality raw/semi cooked food I tried buying him. He LOVED the home made food, he even batted off his BFF to eat his food too!
HoundDogMom, other raw feeders please bear with me I know that the whole shebang I know as of now it is 6 pages long. I am trying to paint the whole picture with the dogs, their special needs and what is causing me confusion with the Raw feeding books I have read. There is so much going on right now in my personal life that I am having a very hard time understanding this and if anyone could help point me in the right direction or even a book or website or from experience I would be so very very grateful.
The biggest reservation I have about feeding Raw to the dogs (who LOVED the scoop of homemade cat food I gave them as a test) are the bones and sadly the limited ingredients I can use for my Special Needs Hound.
I have a 14 yr old Walker hound (Forest) who has like no teeth left and was just diagnosed with cushing’s disease but has some pretty abnormal liver tests because of the damage that was done while he went undiagnosed. His liver is so enlarged it displaces his stomach sideways and upwards which makes EASILY digestible food a must. He cannot have food high in phosphorus, copper or ammonia which means little to no red meat and lots of poultry, eggs and pork. He also has problems with chronic Constipation so I would have to be VERY careful about the amount of bone I add to his diet but I also want enough in there to give him the nutrients he needs. Since he is older he also burns a LOT of calories, He is on Vital Fresh pet Turkey or Chicken and gets 1.5 lbs a day. I don’t know what is causing him to burn so many calories except for old age or maybe his body is trying to repair itself – all he does is lounge in the lawn and do his hound dance for food – people or animal whichever he can mac on at the moment lol
My 3 yr old yellow lab (Nova) is also a high calorie burner but she is super active, we do scent tracking, retrieving, and lots of walking/running on the grass. She will go until she drops which I have never seen before, so now I watch her very closely for signs she is over heated. She eats up to 2 lbs of the above dog food a day but is still losing weight on occasion when her activity jumps up again. She has always had double the amount of Eosinophils in her blood that she should at a “normal” rate. She has been checked for parasites so the best I can come up with is that she might have GI issues going on intermittently – she doesn’t transition food gracefully and really doesn’t tolerate even high quality kibble (after research it’s not such a mystery anymore) which is in part what turned me onto Freshpets Vital.
To top it all off I have a Four month old female lab puppy (Ellie) that is still growing. I have her on 2 lbs of Freshpets vital but I am worried that she is not getting something in her diet as well. She has three white lines running across her nails – each nail on every paw. In my experience when the horses have white lines or even indents it means either they were very very sick or have a mineral/vitamin deficiency of some sort. I know when Ellie came to us she had a severe infection of hook and round worms. Her infection was so severe at 8 weeks old that the vet said she would have died untreated – thank you OCD and taking her to the Vet the same day she was brought home lol. They were resistant to the normal worming meds and for 2 months we battled with getting them under control and gone. If Dogs are like horses that would cause the lines because of how sick she was during this (Great going Lemon law Florida) yet I also worry because I know parasites in small animals or even large can cause a huge system imbalance with nutrients which hinders growth.
OK Limited ingredients – because of Forest I have to stick to Chicken, Turkey, and Eggs as a main protein source due to his liver problems and because Rabbit in completely unviable to me unless I want to raise them myself. I have no local butcher – the closest one is three hours away so Chicken and Turkey liver will have to do for organ meat – sometimes I can get chicken hearts once in a blue moon. For Fats I have to choose VERY easily digestible fats from an animal protein because with Forests Liver problems his biliary system can be overloaded very easily and that would be disastrous. Maybe I can add some duck occasionally to his diet?

Copper Issues:
If ammonia restriction is required, feed less red meats and organs since they produce the most ammonia. You may not want to eliminate them entirely though, as they have important nutrients that help with liver function.
Instead, cut back. Feed more poultry, fish, eggs, and pork. If feeding red meat, even in small quantities, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Preferably grass fed, antibiotic, and hormone free.

Meats generally low in copper are:
• Beef (muscle meat, not organs)
• Eggs
• Turkey (white meat)
• Chicken (white meat)
• Rabbit
• Fish
Meats generally high in copper are:
• Lamb
• Pork
• Pheasant or Quail
• Duck
• Goose
• Salmon
• Organ Meats
When feeding organs for copper issues, some animal livers contain more copper than others. Beef liver is higher in copper than chicken or pork livers. Regardless, the zinc and b vitamins in liver help to reduce the risk of copper toxicity. Though if your dog has an issue with copper, opt for chicken or pork liver. (http://primalpooch.com/raw-feeding-guidelines-dogs-liver-disease/)

I have read Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet and Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health of Dogs and Cats. I have some major issues with either of the books, UtCaD is so absolute – if you feed this protein then you need this oil. First of all Canola Oil? Corn Oil? Soybean Oil? Walnut oil? Flax and hemp seed oil? I own horses and I would NEVER give them Corn oil with the GMO crap going around I don’t trust Corn or Canola at all. If I am not comfortable feeding to my strict Herbivores I am definitely not OK feeding it to the other animals. By the way the 2,000 lbs animals have had major GI upset from Canola, Corn, Soybean and Flax seed oil. I’ve given it to them in small amounts – 3 tablespoons a day and I have seen a massive systemic effect that made me take them off of it immediately. It was supposed to give them the right ratio of Omega’s 3 and 6 plus help my older guys move and keep weight on since it was winter. The recommended Ratio of 6 to 3 fats are 10:1 to 5:1 for dogs – I have read that small fish or Krill are the best to supplement dogs with because of the low contamination rate and it should not carry Salmon Sickness. Soybean oil is also something I would never give my dogs or humans or anything because of the way it can mimic hormones and interrupt the function of the Thyroid. Also Kelp is recommended a lot, but there are so many negatives that came out during the feeding kelp to horse’s fad that I will not touch the stuff. If it can affect the horses with the amount of iodine to the point horses became toxic I don’t trust the manufactures. It was not that kelp was being fed in large amounts there was absolutely no regulation on what type they harvested or what it contained. Missing link for dogs is a product I am familiar with and they do make it for dogs with trace minerals but it is flax based. Won’t this completely mess up the balancing? Does anyone here feed this instead of kelp?
The Missing Link Ultimate Skin & Coat:
Active Ingredients (per tbsp)
Flaxseed Dried Kelp
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Vegetarian) Zinc Monomethionine
Freeze Dried Beef Liver Lecithin
Blackstrap Molasses Chromium Yeast
Rice Bran Selenium Yeast
Primary Dried Yeast Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6)
Sunflower Seed Niacin (Vitamin B3)
Dehydrated Alfalfa Garlic Powder
Dried Carrot Yucca Schidigera Extract
Shark Cartilage Powder* Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
Freeze Dried Fish Protein Powder Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
Freeze Dried Oyster Powder Folic Acid
Barley Grass Leaves Powder Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
Guaranteed Analysis Amount
Crude Protein (not less than) 18%
Crude Fat (not less than) 28%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 15%
Moisture (not more than) 10%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 450 mg
**Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1000 mg
**Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Cat/Dog food nutrient profiles.

Also if everything is so precise that does not leave room for error such as what if the chickens were raised on Florida soil which is heavy in limestone and deficient in other areas – rather than let’s say somewhere in the bread bowl what about if they were fed a corn based feed and another batch was fed free range? If the meat analysis is different it throws everything off and we all know that meat from south Fl is very different than meat from MI or IN – same principle goes with growing vegetables even organic. How much of a God Factor is there for the abundance of some micronutrients and lack of others? UTCAD also has an abundance of some nutrients way over the NRC guidelines – are dogs different in the fact that they can rid themselves of excess things very easily? I know in humans and horses Vit E and Selenium can be deadly because it builds up in fat and the body doesn’t flush it out like the water-soluble vitamins?
Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health has a lot of oat meal, rice, beans?! Half and Half milk, whole milk, whole wheat bread corn? That sounds not so great for dogs and especially not for cats like it says it can be. What about kidney beans? With feeding my dogs I have learned they do OK on rice occasionally when they have an upset GI but if they are on a diet with rice too long they get backed up. Also the beans – the dogs seem to have issues with digesting them like people sometimes do – why are there so many carbohydrates? Why cannot I do sprouted microgreens or carrots or even baked potatoes because I know the dogs tolerate those vegetables very well. Also Brewer’s Yeast? Isn’t yeast as a whole bad? It’s in everything and I know Nova already is prone to yeast infections in her ears and when she gets a UTI – Also can Brewer’s yeast cause or attribute to bloat? Milk – isn’t milk products bad if they are in large amounts such as 2 cups milk plus 2 cups rolled oats and 2 eggs and calcium powder? Everything to me seems so skewed.
Also RMB are out of the question – Forest cannot eat them and Nova and Ellie are gulpers – they came from a large litter and it would be just my luck to end up in emergency surgery with one of them. I have a grinder to which I can grind the bone up with the meat and I know the purpose of the bone was for dental health but if I make Meat Jerky and other goodies can I replicate that without worrying about emergency surgery or broken teeth?
Since I own a grinder already for cat food why cannot I grind bones to supplement their food with? So far in my research the basic recipe and consensus I have come across is as follows:
16% Organ meat
10% – 25% Bone
The rest of the food would be muscle meat and muscle meat
Meat is very high in phos and the bone is high in Cal which means the Cal to Phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.5:1 although 1:1 to 2.5:1 is ok as well. I just need to make sure the dogs consume more Cal than Phos but the question is do I need to add bone meal or can I grind my own bones to supplement?
Here is what the Article analysis the bone content to be in prey animals:
Bone Content In Raw Foods
When sourcing bones for your dog’s diet, it’s a good idea to know the approximate amount of bone in commonly sourced foods. Here is a quick guide to help you keep your dog’s bone content in the right range; between 10% and 25%.
Chicken Whole chicken (not including the head and feet): 25% bone/Leg quarter: 30%/Split breast: 20%/Thigh: 15%/Drumstick: 30%/Wing: 45%/Neck: 36%/Back: 45%/Turkey/Whole turkey: 21%/Thigh: 21%/Drumstick: 20%/Wing: 37%/Neck: 42%/Back: 41%
Pork Feet: 30%/Tails: 30%/Ribs: 30%
Beef Ribs: 52%
Rabbit Whole rabbit (fur and all): 10% Whole (dressed): 25-30%

From this can I remove the proper amount of bones or add more bones in to balance or would you suggest a bone meal powder? Also I have yet to factor in the percentage of vegetable/fruit/microgreens in the recipe – I am just so lost so if HoundDogMom could help or someone else could chime in I would be so grateful. I am trying very hard to learn as much as I can but between the animals and two sick family members and special needs animals by the time I have a moment to sit down I am out like a light for the night or my brain is so frazzled everything looks like it was written in French. Am I over thinking this? I just don’t want to screw Ellie up – she has already had such a bad start with the worm infection – and Forest needs nutrients to rebuild his liver correctly and I wanted to see if this change in diet would help Nova’s Eosinophils come to a normal level. Also has anyone ever seen white lines on every toenail that grows parallel with the skin? Any help would be so appreciated there is just not a lot of room for error with Forest right now with his liver Alt levels 4 times what they are supposed to be. They cannot stay on the Freshpet much longer because to feed the dogs its 19 dollars a day and that’s not a very good long term solution.
Thanks so much everyone~!~ I Hope everyone had a great New Year and wonderful Holiday
`RedMare

[Nancy B]

Raw backs and necks are new to me. What do you use for grinding these? Do you remove the skin?

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I will definitely report back once I’ve received and tried the KBPF. How long have your dogs been on grain free and now on freeze dried raw foods. All three of my dogs suffered from wax, yucky ears. Never smelled or anything like that but they were yeasty brownish and gunky. Sometimes they would shake their heads but mostly they were always scratching their ears. None of them had ear infections because I had them all checked out. I had to clean all of their ears every day to try to keep up with it. Once I removed all grains, soy, corn, rice and all poultry (fowl) from their diets their ears cleared up within a matter of weeks on their own. Now that they are on raw foods none of those issues have ever returned. Another thing I did was switch shampoos. I had always been told that if you had a talk with allergies you should use an oat meal shampoo. Well, that is really very wrong. Oatmeal may be soothing to humans but if you are allergic to grains, oatmeal being one of them, you cannot bath your dogs with oatmeal shampoos. I didn’t know any better at the time. Poor Katie. I was constantly bathing her with oatmeal based shampoos because of all of her allergies. Along with her food intolerances and sensitivities she also has environmental allergies. I couldn’t figure out why nothing was working until a light bulb went on over my head and I thought….DUH????? So I switched and she’s all good. It’s been a while since I had to use any particular ear cleaner now I just make sure to put cotton balls in their ears for bathing and then dry them out after bathing. The one ear cleaner called Clean Ear by 21st Century for Pet Health cleans & dissolves was build up. That one worked pretty well actually. You just squirt a little in their ears, massage it in, then they’ll shake their heads and then I would dry out their ears. You have to do it on a regular basis until their new diets kick in and it stops happening. I haven’t had to use it in years but I’m sure it must still be around. There are other over the counter products like that also of course that would work the same way.

[theBCnut]

If there is any rawness in the ears, they can. Vinegar and water won’t dissolve wax, which is sort of waterproof, but they will help to clean the ear. Peroxide will bubble away at the wax and help to loosen it, but can be harse on the sensitive tissue and if the dog shakes its head and peroxide gets in the eye, it burns like crazy!!!! I know from first hand experience. I just get Zymox ear cleaner, not the one with steroids.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
Please let me know how the girls do on KBPF-I ALMOST placed an order for the trial sizes, but my head is spinning from what I already have in the bullpen for Millie.
The next free-dried i have for her is the Oracle grain-free, still waiting for the Primal Raw.
I,too was loved by the shelter, all the foods I tried for pepper & poor thing couldn’t tolerate any.
Thanks for the heads up with the fruits and veggies -I only feed 1 type of treat its called Cocotherapy-freeze dried fruits or veggies they are very costly & the bags are very empty for $9.95 a bag, I don’t use any commercial bones either.
When I first got Pepper & didn’t know anything I bought her Greenies for her dental issues-my angel got so sick on them, I swore I would never again buy anything like that!!
I have been in Louisiana 34 yrs-all my adult life, but they still call me a yankee and I am proud of that,never lost my accent as I am told!! I go home & they ask me where I am from!!! Go figure.
Do you have any suggestions on what I can use to clean Millie’s ear she has some wax & I think it bothers her-she shakes her head sometimes,no smell, I thought vinegar or hydrogen peroxide , but this healthy dog Handbook says both are no-no’s=the book says o use a commercial product, I always try to stat away from them, but if you have a particular product that works, I would appreciate the info.
Fondly,
Cheryl

[Kristin C]

Hi Dori – Thank you. One of my dog’s is sensitive so think I am going to pass on the Steve’s for now. I have some Primal beef coming to try. I’ll be interested to know how Better In The Raw goes for you. It has real food in it so it interests me.

It’s 0 degrees here in CT! The dog’s get a little nutso on these days when I’d rather not be outside. My beagle/Aussie has gone from slug to supercharged in the last year since changing her diet so it can be a challenge with the weather.

[Dori]

I just placed an order for both the trial sizes of KBPF Better in the Raw with liver and U-Stew for dogs. Thought I’d give it a try as I’d never heard of it before. When it arrives and I use it I’ll post the outcome. Has anyone else actually used this yet? If so, how’d it go? Read their site thoroughly. Seems easy enough to do and try.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I’ve been in Atlanta for 13 years now and still consider NYC home. I sometimes feel like I went on vacation and couldn’t find my way back home. lol We left the North East because we were so sick and tired of the cold weather. Well, I just took a look at the thermometer on my patio while I was out with my three girls and it is 17 degrees. I don’t know kind of global warming this is suppose to be but it’s had the opposite effect in Atlanta.

On cooking the veggies. If I’ve cooked veggies for our dinner then I’ll give them some cooked. Fruits I give raw. Most of the time I give the girls the fruits and veggies raw because I don’t give them for their nutritional value I give them to the girls as treats. I don’t feed any commercial treats whatsoever. Too many recalls with too many treats. I don’t give bones as I said, I certainly would never give them raw hide stuff, most commercial treats include some sort of grain or gluten and I feed grain free. So I give fruits and veggies and don’t have any concern whether they come out the same way that they went in. They’re happy chomping on what they think are treats and I feel it’s better than taking a chance on store bought treats. As to fruits and veggies, it’s also what happens to be in the fridge or on the counter. They love little bits of bananas so if I’m eating a banana I share it with them. Mostly me, little for them.

As to THK and more pooping, my three dogs did initially poop more often at the beginning and then eventually it tapered off and now they only go twice a day regardless of what they’ve been fed. Initially on THK their poops were pretty big too compared to their raw foods but then that went back to normal size also. My girls love THK and also lick their bowls clean to the point that they shine. Glad your girls like it too. It always makes me happy to feed them foods that not only do they love, but do so well on.

Kristin C. I tried Steve’s Real Food for Dogs once and I didn’t care for it. I didn’t like the consistency. I also didn’t care much for what was coming out of them either and they very rarely if ever have loose stools so that was another issue. It’s been a long time since I fed it and eventually gave the rest of the food away. I used to be big on trying different brands and seeing how the girls did. I now have a pretty big variety that they eat with no issues at all but as we went through the trial and error period my local shelter adored me. I was over there all the time dropping food off. One of my girls has a lot of food sensitivities, intolerances and a couple of out and out allergies so the process took me quite a while. That’s actually what led me to feed commercial raw. As long as I always remember to check all ingredients (companies do from time to time decide to make some formula change), Katie no longer has any food issues.

[Kristin C]

Jakes Mom – I’d like to hear back if you like KBPF. I’m thinking about ordering some of Better In The Raw. At least it has some real food ingredients in it.

Cheryl-I ordered some a Primal too today! Going to try the Sardine grind instead of buying so many sardine cans.

Dori-Have you tried Steve’s Real Food for Dogs? The prices look somewhat reasonable.

[jakes mom]

yeah, we got a little off topic didn’t we? I asked about THK mixes because they were the only ones I’d heard of other than the SSLL. I’m new to the raw food thing. Aimee doesn’t like THK or the KBPF. I don’t know her background so I can’t say that her opinion impacts my decision either way. I bought a couple of trial packs for the cats. If they like it, great, if not, live and learn I guess. Package says it meets AAFCO guidelines. They won’t be eating it exclusively so I’m not worried about any nutritional imbalance, really.
Cheryl, my Jake loves bones. I was nervous, too, at first, but heard so much about the benefits I decided to try. So far he’s had chicken backs, turkey necks, and “scrap bones” sold for soup. I believe they were beef vertebrae by the look of them I have some pork bones in the freezer, too. Pork needs to be frozen for a few weeks to kill any parasites. I always supervise him when he has a bone to be on the safe side but have had no problems. My understanding is that raw bones are safe, it’s the cooked ones that splinter and cause trouble.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
Thank thank you for your input.
My girls esp miss Millie are gulpers-I turn around and her food is gone!!
When I first got her it took her 25 min to eat,now seconds, I had to get her a slow feed bowl.
I thank you for your input on the Turkey necks-I just don’t feel comfortable giving them to her, I am not real interested in RMB either.
If I went raw, it would be commercial raw also, Millie being a schnauzer I have to watch her fats.
She adores the orijen freeze dried-howls while I am making it-jumping dancing!!!
Do you cook the fruits and veggies or do you give your girls raw with that also.
Pepper (until her bad gastric episode) always got raw carrots for a snack, bu tI noticed they came out the same way they went in, so i cook them-i read that since they have a short digestive tract, its hard for them to process the raw veggies.
I did order some Primal raw, so i am anxious to see how millie does.
It is hard to find real commercial raw here,so ordering it is my only option & I don’t know what other companies will ship to me in Louisiana without it costing a fortune.
Thanks again Dori

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. As far as poultry bones, they are risky and NOT to be fed if they are cooked. Raw they say is just fine. I don’t give my three toy dogs any bones to eat. Their too small ( 5, 6 & 7 lbs.) and I’m too afraid of them choking on something. Of course, if you choose to do so, please be sure that you stay with your dogs the entire time they are chomping down the bones so you know they are safe. You have to also know your dogs. Are they gulpers and likely to try to swallow large pieces or are they slow chewers with all foods. That’s an important thing to know. Mine are all gulpers. I swear I don’t think they chew anything other than raw carrots that I give them as treats. Most everything else they are like vacuum cleaners. As Bobby dog said don’t give weight bearing bones. You can also feed ribs…beef, pork, whatever.

I feed my girls commercial raw foods for most of their two meals a day. I add different other ingredients to their meals and they get organic fruits and veggies. I hardly ever cook for my husband and myself so I can’t see myself whipping up meals for my dogs. I’m a believer that raw food is best for my dogs. I have seen a world of difference in these three since I switched to raw three years ago. I don’t feed the prey model because I couldn’t possibly hand over a whole animal or whatever and watch them eat it. I haven’t got the stomach for it I guess. No doubt, they’d be fine with it maybe but I wouldn’t be. I’m quite OCD about my three little girls (some would say neurotic…I’m proud of that) health be it physical or nutritionally. So I hear your concerns. I should also mention that I rotate their foods between different brands and within those brands. One of my girls has a lot of food sensitivities so no fowl of any sort. I feed them twice a day and I also rotate with each meal. I’ve been doing this with them for a long time so they have no issues eating different foods for different meals. It did take about 3 or 4 months I think before I was able to do that though. I hope anything I’ve said has helped and I think Bobby dog has given you some great advice as she always does.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Dori.

[Bobby dog]

Cheryl:
I hear you about being cautious! I have tried transitioning my dog to a few raw meals per week, but he just doesn’t care for it. Commercial raw he will eat, not prey model. That is why I am interested in home cooked.

I also tried to introduce RMB’s to him and he just buries them in the yard. Several posters feed chic and turkey necks. It just depends on your comfort level and your dog. Weight bearing bones are not recommended because of their density, your dog could crack a tooth. There is allot of info about RMB’s & raw diets in the forums. Here is a recent RMB thread, check it out and ask away. I unfortunately will not be much help with your RMB questions!
/forums/topic/rmbs-and-recreational-bones/

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Bobby,
I finally found the post i wanted to reply to,this new format drives me crazy,if I am away from the computer, I forget who I need to reply to -sorry.
You asked if I want to feed raw or cooked, honestly, I don’t know.
I guess I could give Miilie a few raw meals per month, in the hot summer here I don’t think so. The heat here is oppressive.
I have been lightly boiling all meats I give to pepper and now Millie.
I still await the Primal raw from the co.
I saw something on u-tube and they were feeding turkey necks-I thought all poultry bones were risky to feed. Do you think a turkey neck is safe for a little schnauzer to chomp on??
Ideally, I guess if Millie could take it vary the kinds of meals within a week, if not vary weekly,I am very new to this & very OCD (ask Shawna) when the welfare of the fur-kids are concerned.
I don’t trust myself.