To clarify — Dr. Dodds is still not recommending “against” raw diets but is certainly warning about feeding an imbalanced raw diet… Something myself, BCnut, HDM and many other raw feeders here completely agree with..
This is what Dr. Dodds says about raw (same article as above).
“The rationale behind the concept of BARF (an acronym for Biologically Appropriate Raw Food) is that this is the type of diets dogs were programmed to eat during their evolutionary development (6). Therefore, the BARF diet represents a biologically-appropriate food for dogs, rather than cooked or processed foods. With a BARF diet, the perfect meal would contain muscle meat, bone, fat, organ meats, vegetable and fruit materials combined in precisely the correct balance, just as nature intended.”
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by
Shawna.
You and I remember that conversation slightly differently aimee..
My entire “initial” comment was
“I imagine they would have to eat a lot of thyroids to overdose on iodine that way.? Additionally, if there were truly a risk of hyperthyroid and raw diets I am certain Dr. Dodds would be one of the first to recommend against them.
I don’t think even one of the raw diets I feed contains any thyroid (or gullet). The supplements I use do but not the foods.” /dog-food-reviews/natures-logic-dog-food-dry/#comment-1204301377
Shortly after I posted (this is only a portion of the post)
“Dr. Dodds actually does have an article regarding this study..
“Dr. Peterson’s “Bottom Line”:
In man, community-wide outbreaks of “hamburger thyrotoxicosis,” resulting from inadvertent consumption of ground beef contaminated with bovine thyroid gland, have been previously reported (3,4). These outbreaks resulted in the banning of “gullet trimming,” in which meat in the neck region of slaughtered animals is ground into hamburger……
…..In the dogs of this report, it is obvious that the correct balance was not maintained and a very large amount of raw thyroid gland tissue ended up in their raw meat diet. As is the case with the exogenous L-T4, these natural thyroid hormones are not destroyed by gastric acid and can then be absorbed, leading to high concentration of circulating T4
and clinical sign of hyperthyroidism.” http://drjeandoddspethealthres…” /dog-food-reviews/natures-logic-dog-food-dry/#comment-1204382360
Just found the page Lew olson says, much of the time the problem can be tracted back to carbohydrates, When dogs digest grains, reserves of important bacteria in ur dogs intestines become depleted, causing essential vitamins like vitamin B & K to be passed with the faces, When a dogs eats another dogs stool he may be trying to get back the bacteria & enzymes that are missing in his diet…Carbohydrates are more difficult to digest & may pass thru the dogs system only partially digested this may also make stools more tempting to ur dog. ..So what can u do? add digestive enzyems, beneficical bacteria & a B complex vitamin to the dogs diet may help curb his drive to eat stools, Reducing or eliminating carbs can also produce smaller less “appetizing” stools in which the food is more completely digested. A diet of raw meat & bones on the other hand, produces smaller, drier, & less smelly stools.The fewer grains ur dog eats the more benficial enzymes & bacteria remain avialable to ensure stools are well-formed & almost odorless. Unripe Pineapple & papayas are rich in the enzyems ur dog needs to break down proteins, & the bromelain in pineapple can also help with inflammation & the uptake of other supplements.
If ur dog is on a grain free kibble it may have potatoes which are carbohydrates…. This book ‘Raw & Nutual Nutrition for dogs’ is an excellent read Im learning so much, explaining heaps of health problems & what to feed ur dog.. good easy recipes Raw or cooked..
I posted on this very issue 3 months ago on the Natures Logic thread. A paper was published on this in 2012 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22931400
In response Shawna posted “Additionally, if there were truly a risk of hyperthyroid and raw diets I am certain Dr. Dodds would be one of the first to recommend against them.”
Guess Dr Dodds is now warning people about the issue. Here is a link to her blog on the issue dated 2 /2013
My boy was eating the neighbours cat poo, I was going to put a muzzle on him when he went outside as it was making him ill… I saw a Dog Behavourist & she told me to make sure everytime I was outside I watched him & teach him the words “LEAVE IT”… its easy to teach ‘leave it’ u get a 1 little treat or 1 of his kibbles & put it under ur foot when the dog smells it & goes near the treat u say ‘LEAVE IT’ when the dogs leaves the threat u wait then reward him with the treat thats under ur shoe, that way he cant quickly grab the treat under ur shoe, then when he seems to understand the word LEAVE IT u leave the treat next to ur foot or nearby on floor, same let dog see treat, if he goes to eat it say ‘NO, LEAVE IT’ then when he’s has left the treat wait then give him the treat, once they have learnt the word LEAVE IT when you see them about to eat something yuk u can say leave it. Now my boy leaves poo or any food in the street on our walks…But I did change his food he was always hungry, once he was put on another kibble & I increased to 3 cups the poo eating did stop, Im reading a really good book called ‘Raw & Natural Nutrition for dogs’ by Lew Olson PhD, she explained why some dogs eat poo, now I cant find the page about why & how to fix the problem but I remember her saying their poo isnt digested properly, unprocessed food & the dog can smell food not poop, & dog eats it, Ive read elsewhere to add some pineapple to the dogs food to stop poo eating but I dont know if it works..I’m busy at the moment but tonight I’ll speed read back thru the begining if her book & try to find what Lew Olson says, I remember thinking, she’s was right & that it made sense when I locked back on why my dog was doing it, I look thru her book later,
Well this is a first… Noticed topic on a Greyhound Forum :
“Feeding Raw Foods to your Pets can Cause Hyperthyroidism”
WHAT? I’m sorry. Can you say that again?
Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction when one of the world’s leading veterinarian immunologists, Dr. Jean Dodds of Dr. Jean Dodds’ Hemopet, Petlifeline, Hemolife & Nutriscan, announced that statement.
While attending one of Dr. Dodds’ seminars, we were going over the topic of thyroid dysfunction in pets and the current “epidemic” of hypothyroidism in dogs and hyperthyroidism in older cats going on today. As she went deeper into the subject, she brought up a study involving both raw foods and dogs. The study by Dr. Mark E. Peterson showed that feeding certain raw foods caused a previously unexpected dietary hyperthyroidism effect. While hypothyroidism is a common endocrine disorder in dogs, canine hyperthyroidism is rare.
How could this be? Quicker than the Roadrunner escaping Wile E. Coyote my hand flew up into the air! “How was this possible?” I asked.
Some raw food manufacturers are grinding up the neck of the beef cattle into their mixtures/pet food. Inside that neck is where you find the thyroid glands of the cow. The thyroid tissues are being ground up and mixed into the pet food. This terrible mixture causes dietary hyperthyroidism in dogs.
Moral of the story: It is suggested to make sure that if you’re feeding fresh, raw foods to your pets, be sure to find out if the neck (gullets that still have the esophagus and thyroid attached) of the cattle is included. How do you find out? Contact your local farmer or manufacturer! (Side note: There is no concern in feeding chicken, turkey or duck necks.)
Feeding fresh foods to our pets is always the way to go, but educating ourselves beforehand makes it even better. Knowledge is power.
TParticipant
Coprophagia is normally a juvenile behavior that dogs outgrow. Some dogs may continue into adulthood. The behavior may have different origins, not the least of which is “stomach heat” and inadequate nutrition (i.e. non-species appropriate food, non-fresh food, etc.).
I sound like a broken record, but consider a gradual change to a real food, grain-free, low-carb. diet whether it be cooked or raw food. Add digestive enzymes to meals and use a probiotic for several months.
Damage control/breaking the habit in the short term: Only let the dogs out to eliminate when you are there to supervise. Pick up all feces immediately. If you see the dog start to think about eating a pile, give a “no” command and re-direct their attention so you can pick up the poop. Treat it as a training task much as you would teach “sit” or “stay.”
Hope that helps! By the way, I’m a holistic veterinarian in Phoenix and I have a blog at http://naturalalternativesvet.com/category/blog
I have not tried Divovite yet. I have 2 year old Bullmastiff that has been on Taste of the Wild/Bison pretty much since I rescued him (had him on Blue for about a month, the foster had him on a raw diet for a month and I have no idea what he was eating before)…He seems to be having food allergies, but can’t tie it down to one thing that he is allergic to. When he stays at the sitter’s for more than a day, he comes home licking and rashy. The first time it was small red bumps everywhere including his ears, eyes and jowls…The second time it was hot spots and the dry flaky bumps that others have talked about on this thread. Both times the vet prescribed antibiotics. The first time, he got a steroid shot and some eye and ear cream too…the second time I had to go to the vet twice and the second time he prescribed a second antibiotic and a steroid boosted antihistamine…and said that I could give my dog up to 15 Benadryl a day for the rest of his life. I agree with all of you that think that meds for life is ridiculous. I don’t think I want to go raw with his diet either. I am willing to try Dinovite, it isn’t that expensive for a 90 day supply (for my 120lb bully, $1 per day)…
I want to add this though- those concerned about diatamaceous earth need to do more research on it. I’ve used it several times all by itself to kill fleas. Non-food quality is used in pool and hot tub filters, food quality is used by farmers in their livestock foods to help fight intestinal parasites because it is actually crushed shells and corals and it cuts the parasites skin and causes them to dehydrate. Many sites will recommend it all by itself as a treatment to your pet’s coat to fight fleas and you can add it to food by itself for the same reasons farmers use it. I’ve never heard it being referred to as a “binder.” And to the post talking about the ingredients to the solvents and poisons including H2O, RIGHT ON man!!!! People are so worried about “chemicals” they can’t pronounce, but most people would not have any issues eating an egg…well you know eggs are chemicals and if you looked at the chemical make-up of an all natural egg, you wouldn’t be able to pronounce them either (Ovalbumin, Conalbumin, Ovamucoid, Ovomucin, Lysozyme, Avidin, Ovoglobulin, Ovoinhibitor) and that is just for the whites of the eggs….
Dori,
We aren’t sure. He started with ear infections, again, a year ago. We honestly have no idea what started them back up, after being free of them for almost seven years. I didn’t want him on raw again, simply due to money but after being fine on NB lid sweet potato & fish, he got another one. My holistic vet suggested stopping all supplements & said since his ear infections were yeast, she worried about fruits & veggies (sugar can feed yeast). So, back to ground raw for him.
Thanks for extending such a gracious welcome to me after joining the forum and encouraging me to take the leap to go raw. I look forward to the sharing of tips and information among “dog people”.
Dchassett, how did the liver test turn out for your Maltese? Hope all is fine.
Debbie
Anybody know what are the cheapest dry food that has zero or has only 1-2 minor red items? I don’t really mind low protein % since my dog gets plenty of protein in his raw meat meals.
Hi all! 🙂 I wanted to know, do any of you raw feeders feed the whole prey rabbits or cavies? I would like to try one with Bailey sometime, but the whole prey quail didn’t go over so well, so I’m unsure if she would eat it or just look at it and walk away. How long did it take your dog to get used to it or did they dig right in? I just ordered some of the rabbit feet, and she’s eating those, although it took a little bit for the first one.
Hi Shasta
Yes, just til it’s white. Try putting 1/2 inch of water in the bottom of a pan and bring it to a boil. Place however many eggs in there that you want to cook, and put the lid on it. Leave it for 3-4 minutes then run cold water over the eggs. Crack open and feed as soon as they are cool enough.
Hi Naturella
One a week would be rare enough and yet still a good amount of raw egg for the benefits of raw for a dog Bruno’s size.
Here is a link from Dogs Naturally: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/feeding-your-dog-raw-eggs-good-or-bad/
The above article pretty much agrees with what the nut expressed earlier. (small n, Patty :))
Don’t mean to repeat what everyone has said so far, just want to comment so I can follow the thread. I have a Rat Terrier mix and he is a little over 1 year old, and has been on 11+ different kibbles so far. Variety is essential so you can look for good quality protein (from meat or meat meal), and good brands, and rotate flavors and brands. I think I’m not doing it quite perfectly, as I choose a brand, then rotate all flavors I am willing to feed within that brand, then I switch brands. I think you should alternate brands and flavors between bags and go back and forth between brands if need be. Mixing kibble with canned and raw is also a great idea. Definitely avoid the Science Diet and low protein. Good affordable kibbles that I have fed are Victor Grain Free, Earthborn Holistic Grain Free, Vets Choice Holistic Health Extension (protein is below 30% though), and Dr. Tim’s. All have manageable kibble size for small dogs (Dr. Tim’s is the biggest of those listed, and Victor is the smallest). Good luck!
Oh, and when transitioning from one kibble to the next, you can add some plain pumpkin puree or yoghurt/kefir, or canned to make the transition easier on their tummies. For canned I currently use Nutro Ultra and Nutro Max.
I usially give Bruno one raw egg/week, scrambled up and mixed with his kibble. Would that be “rare” enough to not have to cook the white part? I could do it though, if need be.
I no longer trust them to feed any more unless I have manufactured myself from my own free range cattle. Unfortunately it ususally ends up being the processing plants and equipment at fault, i.e., machines which are not properly or regularly cleaned, foreign objects in the processing equipment, etc. I am learning that one cannot be too careful. I have feed ORIJEN for years; it is a high quality dog food and manufactured on site. I also feed PRIMAL RAW. the ONLY treats my dogs are allowed are dried sweet potato and prior to this – bullies – I use Primal because it is fit for human consumption as is Orijen…this is a scary time and one cannot be too careful. I am still seeing dark green stools today so I know whatever this is still trying to move through their systems. Today I add Probiotic. The store which sold me this bully is the best store in this part of the state regarding quality but this proves anything can happen. Diligence and more diligence. I don’t think your problem is the Orijen but did you mix it with the other food to introduce slowly? Are you feeding Six fish or meat? I have seen some rumblings about Arcana this week….on Susan Thixton’s site.
Okay, friend in California — let’s call her T.. T rotates (you know me and rotation) between the Preference and Steve’s and adds raw antelope, buffalo, beef etc. These are all no bone in commercial products she gets from a local puppy boutique in her area.
The premix she was using (that he dog was reacting to) is called NDF2. Just realized it has wheat brand and germ too. For some reason I was just remember the oats??? http://www.volharddognutrition.com/natural-diet-foundation-2/natural-diet-foundation-2.html She had heard about the diet on a Yahoo group and a premix was appealing to her so she could rotate the meat. But she wasn’t rotating the NDF at all.
She feeds raw green tripe once a week, fasts the dogs once a week and makes her own kefir using raw milk and kefir grains (it is legal to buy raw milk in California). She feeds a REALLY good diet. After reading a previous post about some of the other symptoms you are seeing in Hannah however, I highly doubt the elevated liver values are due to detoxing like was the case in T’s dog.
If it ends up being the liver you might want to look in to Dr. Dodds liver diet using white fish and potato. White fish creates less ammonia which in turn is less stressful for the liver as it is the liver that has to convert the ammonia to urea. There are also supplements that can be considered — such as Sam-e and milk thistle in therapeutic doses, Standard Process Hepatic Support and so on. I have a contact at SP that can help with product recommendations if wanting to go that route.
You might want to also consider a phone consult with a nutritionist or a holistic vet once you have an official diagnosis. Treating cushings will be somewhat different than treating liver cancer. Mary Straus, Dr. Becker, Dr. Dodds, Naturopathic Vets Dr. Jeannie Thomason or Kim Bloomer, Dr. Peter Dobias, Dr. Christina Chambreau, Dr. Martin Goldstein, Dr. Barbara Royal (Darwins) etc might be some to consider speaking with. Jacqueline at Answer’s might have suggestions for diet or vets to speak with too? I could contact her on your behalf. I’m guessing you’ve already determined the diet for cushings can be high protein, lower fat/purines and carb.
Dr. Becker has several video/articles on cushings if that is the diagnosis or if you want to get info early before a definitive diagnosis. She talks about typical and a-typical cushings as well as causes (she, and others, feel early spaying can cause a-typical as an example) and dietary prevention (which you were doing by feeding lower carb, moisture rich.
I won’t swear by my spelling, but here is the scoop on eggs. Raw egg white has a substance called avidin(that’s the spelling?) that binds with biotin so the dog can’t use the biotin in it’s diet. However, there are other very good things in raw egg. Heat deactivates the avidin. So the key is to give raw eggs sometimes, but not all the time. The rest of the time you want the white lightly cooked but the yolk as untouched as possible. Seperating out the white and cooking it by itself is the best method, but a pain in the neck. Soft boiling is probably second, but that still heats the yolk too much to be doing no damage to the heat sensitive stuff in the yolk. Next, would be sunny side up for doing the least damage.
I’ve always read that they must be cooked, I’d Google “are raw eggs bad for a dog”…I wish Patch was a healthy dog & could eat anything like my last girl, Kibble is so much easier then cooking.. I just did his chicken & Butternut Pumkin it took me 1 hour, thats cooking then putting in freezer bags, but now Im right for a fortnight..I boil his egg every second day as he’s on half a egg cause he’s a small the medium size..Im making him Gluten free Banana & Honey cookies tomorrow, a recipe I got of the net then if they turn out good, Im going to make up little packets of 10 cookies for $5 to sell at the Dog park.. I might make some with normal Flour for the normal dogs & the Gluten free for the dogs that cant have wheat..
I’m not sure what the calcium content in their food is, I’d have to look. Seems like shells are around 40-50% calcium, right?
Is there a hazard of feeding raw eggs, or should I rather say – benefit of lightly cooked?
And my dogs don’t get many bones currently. We don’t have access to a good affordable butcher, and my dad didn’t go hunting this year, so the dogs only get occasional leftover (raw, yes) poultry bones. Cassy (dog who eats shells) doesn’t even get the bones, the boyz beat her to em.
Sue, they’re on kibble :/ dang I would love to get to home made, but as I’ve said – I don’t have the funds, resources, or space for it. One day though!
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by
Shasta220.
This book Im reading Raw & Nutural Nutrition for dogs by Lew Olson PhD, she recommends to boil the eggs, leave egg shells on a tray in warm place over night, then ground up.. If ur feeding Raw Meaty Bones they are a great source of calcium, they wont need the extra calcuim if their diet is raw, But if ur dogs aren’t on a Raw diet then..half a teaspoon of grounded egg shells sprinked on meal..Im doing this at the moment grounded up the egg shells & putting in spice jar..
I don’t let my dogs kiss me for about 30 minutes after they have eaten raw.
Since it’s springtime and we have chickens/ducks, there is a surplus of eggs. Currently, each dog gets one raw egg daily (40-70lbs), and Cassy (the 70lb old lab) eats the shell as well.
Would it be safe to give one or two of them an extra egg daily? Should I try to incorporate the shell for all 3 dogs, just let them eat if they want (right now, only Cassy likes to eat the shell), or toss the shells in the garden?
They also get about 1/2-1tbsp coconut oil and a little bit of sardine oil (just the human soft gels. They get 1-3) 4-5 days a week.
Hi Deborah H. and welcome. If you are all things dog obsessed than boy have you come to the right place. I’ve got three little ones and they are my babies. One has lots of issues, the one has none other than being totally obsessed with playing fetch, and my older girl I’m just yesterday and today dealing with liver issues (14 1/2 year old Maltese). Waiting for results of tests done this morning. Your question on THK. Yes it was on March 2014 list and it’s not on April 2014 list. We don’t know why it was taken off. A few of us have been discussing this and we are waiting for some feed back from Dr. Mike or HDM.
I’m glad you’re thinking about incorporating a raw diet or at least freeze dried diet for one of their daily meals. There are some home cooked raw feeders here on this site and I’m sure they’ll chime in and steer you in the right direction if home cooking is what you’d like to do. NO, you do not have to stop getting doggie kisses because you feed raw. Just make sure that YOU wash your hands, counter and anything else that touched the raw food thoroughly. Just as you would do when doing your own cooking for you and your family with raw meats and fishes. The more you incorporate and rotate raw and freeze dried foods in your dogs diets the healthier they will become. A healthy dog is more able to deal with minor issues in foods than one with an unhealthy gut. It’s the humans that have to be really careful with foods containing Salmonella and such more so than a healthy dog. You’ll be amazed at the changes that take place when you incorporate raw to their diets. Changes that you didn’t even know weren’t as they should be.
Welcome to our obsessed world. I’m about as obsessed a person can be about my girls, short of being locked up in some institution some where. Even then, they’d have to let me take my dogs, get me a freezer, their supplements, their beds, their toys, all their grooming supplies, shampoos, their special stainless steel bowls, etc. I think you get a picture of me now! SO SO TOTALLY OBSESSED AM I! AND I LOVE IT! It’s the only way to be. In my world, anyway!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by
Dori.
Have I missed something (I just joined today, April 8th)? The Honest Kitchen was mentioned in this forum as being on the Editor’s Choice list, but I do not see it. Was it removed recently?
I am interested in incorporating at least one raw (or freeze-dried raw) meal each day for my eight-year-old Havanese. There aren’t many raw foods that made this prestigious list.
Any suggestions? I am a little nervous to go raw. Does one have to stop letting their dog give humans “kisses” if they eat a raw diet?
Thanks! It’s great to be among those that (maybe) obsess about their dog’s health as much as I do!
Debbie
Hi Shawna. Thanks so much for seeing my post and responding.
All four of Hannah’s liver values was sky high. Last year at this time of year for her physical only one value was high and that was only 1 or 2 points over the high normal so they didn’t mention it because they didn’t think it was any big deal. This year is total different. This year is also when I switched all the girls to all commercial raw for ever meal. I was occasionally rotating in THK Zeal and/or Preference. Katie developed intolerance to alfalfa so I stopped THK. (Katie is the poop eater and though I’m vigilant about being the human pooper scooper, if I’m out and my husband just opens the door and lets them out in the yard. Doesn’t pick up after them. Too be fair, he has macular degeneration pretty bad and probably really doesn’t see it too pick up). Their diet has been Answers, Darwins, Stella & Chewy’s, Primal Pronto, Vital Essentials. As you know all very high proteins, higher in fats than I would like but they all seem to be that way. I did try Natures Variety for a bit but I didn’t like anything about it so that was just one bag between the three of them.
Your friend in California. Does she only rotate between Honest Kitchen Preference and Steve Brown’s Dinner Mix and if so, what proteins, fruits and veggies does she add? Did she ever go back to any raw meals solely or always the pre mixes with protein. Why Premix with oats? Do you know what brand or what it is?
Yesterday was a really really bad day for me. I tried keeping myself together while Hannah was around but I was near hysterical and stressed beyond belief yesterday. If I wasn’t crying I was shaking. I spent almost all day on the computer yesterday trying to digest as much info as I could. The more I read the more nervous I got. I dropped Hannah off this morning (after fasting 12 hours) and just picked her up. They’ll have results back tomorrow afternoon. They were just checking liver at today. They did not want to test for Cushings today because they felt that we needed to take one step at a time. All four doctors in the practice spoke with me today and explained that the Cushing’s test needs to be given medication first (steroids???), and because of the fasting then feeding fatty food and then rest and retesting for the liver test that felt that would interfere with true bloodwork for Cushing’s test and wouldn’t be accurate. Sounds logical. So one step at a time. Depending what they find with results of tests for both liver and Cushing’s they’ll do a liver ultrasound. Best case scenario it’s something that they can reverse levels with food and Sam-E type prescription product. Worse case scenario could be tumor or cancer of the liver. At her age it would be a matter of keeping her comfortable. She’s certainly too old for surgery, chemo, radiation or anything else that goes along with it.
They did tell me no more rabies vaccines for her (unfortunately she had one on Friday during her yearly physical) and definitely no more HW preventative, Sentinel, for her either.
So I’m interested in knowing more about your friend in California and what she fed along with the premixes. That’s the one thing I want to work on immediately. I certainly don’t want to have to put her on one of their prescribed foods so I’m trying to get a jump on getting and ordering whatever I need to change her diet to. This has come as a shock to me. All the issues with her I could justify with other problems she has like loss of hair would be hypothyroid. No jumping on furniture and trembling loss of hind leg muscles and weakness I attributed it to mid spine degenerated discs. One thing I do know is that she is drinking enormous amounts of water.
I’d appreciate any guidance you can give me.
Yeah, I was just thinking about that, is it possible he likes my dog more than he likes me? lol. What about leftovers for me? He does adore Bobby and he’s one of Bobby’s favorite people; he has four favorites. Every morning he trots over to his house and returns with a bisquit. I am lucky to live next door to a neighbor that loves Bobby probably almost as much as I do. My mother was ill and hospitalized for five days just before New Year’s eve this year. I called him from the hospital late in the evening to ask if he could feed and let Bobby out because I didn’t know when or if I would be getting home. He didn’t hesitate to say yes and even kept him at his house until I got home.
I like his litter box designs. Some of the openings looked narrow and long to me, but I understand his thought behind the opening shapes. I think I like the size of the opening on catinfo’s better (it’s worked well for my cats). But, his are good to keep in mind because you never know when a design might need to be tweeked for some reason. I also like leaving the top rim of the box intact (catinfos design). My thought would be for better support to keep the box square. Idk Also, I know on catinfo she mentions different theories on where you might want to put an opening (long or short side). I put the opening on the short side of the first box because of where I was putting it and it hasn’t caused any problems, such as litter getting scattered. On the second one I put the opening on the long side. My cats don’t seem to have a preference. I really feel they are just in awe of all the space they have inside. They actually look more interested in using the litter box. lol It’s funny to watch them the first few times because they almost seem overwhelmed by all the possibilities of where they can dig their hole.
I am going to look into the mats he suggested. I just put an old car mat outside of the one in the basement.
I also checked out the prices of the litter he suggested, the chicken layer feed, very interesting. I can still get clumping unscented TSC litter a few pennies cheaper/lbs, but I might give it a try this summer on the porch just to see how it works. I already planned on trying corn pellets from TSC as litter; it is 40 lbs/$7.00. I started using corn pellets for my horses this winter. I don’t use stalls but during inclimate weather they do urinate in a specific spot in their run-in. I previously used wood shavings which was a pain because I couldn’t put it in the regular manure pile. The people that pick up my manure for composting won’t take it if there is anything other than straw, hay, or manure in it.
Later on tonight I am going to look at the website again to see what other info I can find. It looks like a handy site. Thanks again. Oh, and the tote box from Wal-Mart is a Sterilite and was $20, maybe a little more. So, if your Wal-Mart doesn’t have it, maybe you can track one down from their website.
Hey Dori,
I didn’t read through all the posts so I don’t know what all was said. And I don’t know which liver values were high but I have an interesting story.
My girlfriend in California has five toy breed dogs (your babies remind me of hers). I’ll have to show you a picture of them privately some time… Anywho, she has fed raw to her dogs as long as I’ve known her (but she added a premix with oats in it). None of her dogs had any typical allergy symptoms but I convinced her to switch to The Honest Kitchen Preference in rotation with Steve Brown’s Dinner Premix. Shortly after doing it she took one of her babies to the vet and her liver enzymes were through the roof. I have a copy of her blood work in my email if I can find it. She discussed changes that had been made with her vet and her vet told her to stay the course with the new diet. Her vet, by the way, is Dr. Jean Dodds… 🙂
Although her liver enzymes were crazy high pup started having changes for the positive — mostly behavioral. She came out of her shell in a REALLY big way.. My friend would report to me almost on a daily basis new things that her baby was doing — jumped on the couch for the first time ever. Slept in bed with us instead of isolating herself in the doggy bed etc. After three or four months and a world of positive changes her liver enzymes finally came down again…
My point, don’t freak out cause it doesn’t always mean something bad. It could be a BIG detox. If it is something like cushings then it can be addressed when it is confirmed. It is important that you stay calm for her sake though as she will be able to pick up on your stress and fear (when I learned of Audrey’s diagnosis I made it a point to only break down when I wasn’t around her). Dr. Becker has a couple good articles on cushings. Dr. Dodds gave another friend of mine some data on cushings that could be helpful if needed. I can contact her on your behalf.
Mountainhound: you’re describing Loki almost perfectly!!!!! I started him on a prong as well (his first trainer, like I say, was way more about the correction than the praise). It’s difficult to correct, because when I tugged on the prong when he was in such an anxious mode, it made him turn and bite me – HARD (I had a ring of swollen bruises around my leg)
The gentle lead helped a lot, as a squeeze around the nose is much less “alarming” than a prong, but equally as controlling. I tried a slip lead one time (he wasn’t even around dogs). Pfffffft, never again. I’m completely convinced that dogs want to pull against tightening sensations around that dang neck lol!
It’s hard to tell where his reactivity zone is. It depends on /everything/ from the environment, to the dog, to his “momentum” and the dog’s speed as well. He is always very scared though. In our second class (positive reinforcement), he was on free time (laying down) and I allowed him to near a cocker puppy. The pup was crawling toward him, and he toward it. He acted calm and relaxed, but then randomly stretched out and snapped at it :/
Usually he will get stiff if he even sees a dog across the street. What I do is (try to) get him to sit and “watch” me. When he’s focused on me for a few moments, then I click and reward.
He tends to be a lot better when he’s sitting/laying. When he walks, it gets him even more tensed up and it gets hard to redirect that focus.
I’ll look into that harness for sure. Ive never used them since it’s harder to keep the perfect heel going that I like (ear level or behind my waist….if he’s any forward, then he tenses up even more. When he stays there, then it makes him a touch more calm)
Taking her first the in the morning. She’ll fast this evening and overnight and asked me to bring her in at 10:00 a.m. and leave her there for a couple of hours. They’ll draw blood then I think they feed her a high fat food and bloodwork again after a certain amount of time. She said it would probably take no more than a couple of hours. I’m wondering if I should ask them to go ahead with the Cushing’s test also instead of wasting more time?
No mention of pancreatitis or anything else. She said everything was normal. I’ve just done a search on line of Cushing’s syndrome and she does exhibit a lot of the symptoms. I’ve printed some stuff out to take to the vet tomorrow. She seems to have more symptoms of Cushing’s than liver disease. Increased thirst, increased appetite (I thought it was cause she loves the raw), loss of muscle in back legs, hind-leg weakness (thought it was because two degenerated discs mid spine), hind legs trembling (again thought it was from disc problem), reluctance to jump on furniture, panting, thinning hair (thought it was her hypothyroidism), lots of skin tags (thought it was old age).
I don’t know if I’m just seeing things and putting them together or they are really all just the stuff I thought. I certainly know I’m driving myself crazy. I had mentioned the hind leg trembling but vet said it would be from the degenerated discs. I just don’t know what to think.
Did your Vet say anything about the beginnings of Pancreatitis? This is also a cause for Elevated Liver enzymes. Raw is a lot higher in fat than kibble and some dogs do well on it and others have issues with the higher fat. 2 of mine did not do well on it and developed Pancreatitis and one of my other ones just threw it up several times until I did not offer it to her anymore and the other did fine so 3 out of 4 it did not agree with and to be honest I was worried about them getting bad bacteria in which 2 of them ended up doing from Raw. I still have some in my outside freezer which I need to throw out. I don’t think I will ever find the perfect food for my girls and it is very frustrating. Maybe when I retire I can strictly home cook for the ones I have left or newly acquired ones if that happens. Oh and my girls were on Darwin’s for 8 months before anyone developed Pancreatitis.
I do hope it is nothing serious with your baby girl. keep us posted with the fasting results.
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by
NectarMom.
When I fed Raw one of my dogs blood work constantly coming back like she had Cushings. We had to fast her and then her blood work came back only slightly elevated and now since we are back on kibble her blood work comes back perfect. Fasting really tells more. I do yearly annuals but no vaccines. It could also be the higher protein so which is another reason to fast to get an accurate reading.
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by NectarMom.
Ok Patty. So your basically telling me to calm down and wait and I could be freaking out thinking there’s nothing that will be able to help but that in actuality if it is the liver then there will be some things I can do to reverse the situation? Damn, sorry Patty, I now realize I am babbling. I’ve been checking the protein levels of all the raws that I feed and, of course, they are much higher than kibble but I don’t want to put her on kibble. I also took a look at protein levels for the Nzymes and I’ve had her on two other supplements that I had forgotten about from Ark Naturals Grey Muzzle line. One for cognitive and one for heart health. I just thought since she was older she might need some heart health and, also, due to her age I couldn’t really tell whether she sometimes seemed a little more out of things because of losing some hearing to old age or cognitive skills were being affected due to age. Everything has added protein. Could all that contribute to high liver levels. I should have left well enough alone and just fed her the raw with her glucosamine and not added other stuff. I have been giving them all milk thistle but since it comes in capsules I was dividing one capsule among the three dogs. Should I have been giving each one capsule? It just looked like so much. I should have posted that question. I know we all talked about milk thistle when losul’s Turbo was diagnosed with HW but I don’t think it was ever discussed as to how much or I just missed that part. I’m kicking myself right now thinking of all the things I may have done wrong. Like I said, other than hypothyroid Hannah has never ever had any health issues.
What do you mean it’s rare for vets to do yearly bloodwork? If they don’t then what’s the point of the yearly physical? Why would I take them then? I could look and feel them as well, actually, better than she can? Hmmmm? I should have insisted on a 6 month bloodwork instead of yearly. I read something about that somewhere that when dogs get older they should go every six months instead of yearly but she didn’t think it was necessary in the least because Hannah’s always been so healthy. And here I go rambling and babbling.
Raw honey is supposed to help boost the immune system. I wouldn’t give more than 1/2 teaspoon per 10 lbs.
Somewhere there is a thread about bloat, but I don’t know where it’s hiding, but the take away is that they really don’t know what causes bloat. Every time they think they have a cause, they try to cause bloat and find that whatever they were testing doesn’t cause bloat. The current thinking is that there is no one reason that animals bloat, but that there may be several factors that have to be present at the same time to cause bloat. I can tell you that raw fed dogs are not known for bloating and they recieve a high fat diet compared to kibble fed dogs, so it can’t just be fat. Same with dogs fed canned foods.
They say that for bloat prone dogs that you should not feed a food with citric acid in it because this can cause gas build up in the stomach. And they also say to wet the food well before feeding it to allow it to absorb all the water that it can. And don’t allow your dog to drink water after eating, especially if fed a dry meal. I would always add digestive enzymes to any kibble being fed to a bloat prone dog, but I would strive to feed a more natural diet to these dogs.
Hi Clynne S,
We interview each company being considered for our Editor’s Choice list and inquire if they test their ingredients for preservatives and mycotoxins before these materials are incorporated into their products.
Most either test or insist their suppliers certify the raw materials are preservative-free. Unfortunately, testing by DFA is beyond the scope (or budget) of our service.
Thanks for your question.
Ok, so I’m really freaking out right now. Hannah, our 14 1/2 year old Maltese had her yearly physical on Friday and the vet called this a.m. to tell me that Hannah’s liver levels are sky high. Level came back at 436. I’ll admit I don’t know exactly what that means other than it is bad. She said that last year her level was just under the high level but didn’t mention it because it was nothing to be concerned. It was still high/normal. I have to fast her for 12 hours and have her back to vet in the a.m. to do a specific liver test where they’ll keep her for a couple of hours. If that comes back o.k. then they’ll do a test for Cushings. If that’s okay then a liver ultrasound. The only the that has changed in this past year is that I switched to an all rotating commercial raw diet for all three dogs. She’s had hypothyroidism for years and has been on soloxine for years. That came back fine and keep her on the same dose. I did add Nyzymes a couple of months back to her diet. She has not vomitted, doesn’t have diarrhea, her hair is very very thin but I’ve attributed that to thyroid and old age. She does seem to be drinking more water than normal, especially on a raw diet where they usually drink less water than on kibble not more.
So, what should I start doing immediately. I’m beside myself. Her yearly has only come back as being fabulous. Last year the vets told me her bloodwork came back like that of a 7 or 8 year old dog. So, yep! Freaking out here. HELP!!!
My girls were on Darwin’s for 8 months with no issues then one of the reps for Darwin’s said we could introduce Duck and when we did 2 of mine got Pancreatitis and hundreds of dollars later we dropped Darwin’s off our menu and went with Hare Today and one of mine kept throwing it up so I just gave up on Raw. I don’t want anymore of them sick and I do not need anymore vet bills.
Well now I don’t know what to do! Was just reading research on Bloat, and saw that the risk increases 100% in high risk breeds if one of the top 4 ingredients is fat. The 4th ingredient in Whole Earth is chicken fat, and I have a German Shepherd which is an at risk breed.
I am surprised to see very little discussion on bloat.
I am thinking about rotating Nutrisource (need to check prices) and Grandma Lucy’s with fresh meat. With 2 large breed dogs I just can’t afford the raw route, and husband gets the willies lol.
Honestly, I’d think that home made would be best for everyone. You could customize her diet more easily, and home made is much better in general – raw is best, too. There are many premixes out there. The Honest Kitchen is a favorite. Sojos and See Spot Live Longer are dehydrated foods that you add your own meat to, so you could buy a protein source she isn’t allergic to. Sojos isn’t the most complete, so it would be best if rotated out with at least one other.
If you do find a dry food that works, you can always soak it or mix it with a super wet canned food to make it easier to chew. I’d be a little nervous about having only rabbit as a protein source in dry food, as rabbit has zero animal fat (or possibly there’s chicken fat in the ingredient list as well, I haven’t seen it), and I believe that dogs need an amount of animal fat in their diets.
I still think that something home made is definitely best 🙂
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This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by Shasta220.
I give 1/2 tablespoon of ACV per cup of food, no matter what kind of food it is, dry, canned, raw, etc. You have to dilute it at least 50/50 with water, but I also add water to my dogs’ food so I dilute it more than that.
I use freshly crushed cloves of garlic, which is why I don’t use it daily. Freshly crushed cloves are more potent. Springtime has a high sulfur strain of garlic that is excellent for bug control and is probably safer for every day use than fresh garlic, but you lose some of the other benefits of garlic.
I know there are a lot of people who love bully sticks. I don’t use them simply because my dog turns his nose at them (I think he knows where they come from, LOL!!!).
I don’t think a raw bone would do much harm unless it was a big load-bearing one (shoulder, leg, etc). Possibly try giving him some chicken backs/necks, and even freezing them to make them last a bit longer.
I also like to stuff toys (good rubber that won’t tear, of course) with treats and peanut butter, then freeze. This keeps my heavy chewer busy for a long time 🙂
YES I want to know too. Have a 20 month old GSD. My vet does not like deer antlers and anything else hard which includes BONES because they can easily crack a tooth and then you REALLY have a problem. I was surprised but she said if I saw some of the problems she sees due to cracked teeth I would agree with her. Rawhide is not digested so I do not give them to my dogs. Greenies are supposedly VERY BAD- plus our GSD chewed the XL ones in one minute. I found the website BESTBULLYSTICKS.com and they seem to have good ones. Go read that site. They explain WHY theirs are better. I ordered some and he LOVES THEM and a 12 inch takes him about 30 min. I take it from him after 15 min. I put them in the freezer a few days, thinking it will help with ANY bacteria left on the sticks. THe company says there is no bacteria due to their processing, but you never know. When this dog started getting runny stools I quit giving them to him because it COULD be bacteria in the stick that he cannot deal with. Now I’m dealing with runny stools. I also bought him a VARSITY BALL which is at Amazon and on the net. They are expensive but honestly this is more entertaining than a chew toy could ever be. Watch the videos of dogs playing with that toy. Plus, it wears him out. He cannot get enough of it. You might consider spending your chew toy money on this great entertainment. Good luck.
I drink Amazing Grass Green Superfood. I was looking at the ingredients and it most of them are ingredients recommended by Dr. Becker to optimize a dog’s raw food diet.What do you think? Does it have “no-no” ingredients” or would it be a good idea to share this with my Susie?
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Hi, I have a 12 week old puppy (Newfoundland and Standard poodle) mix who loves to chew on things. I was hoping to find something that I could give him to keep him occupied for some periods when he gets super hyper in the evenings. He is about 25 pounds and has extremely sharp teeth. When he gets hyper and I play with him he play bites a lot and the only thing that calms him is chewing on something else. I am giving him the made of 100% chicken nubz for now, but he goes through a half bone in about 15 mins.
Should I try rawhide or bully sticks? And can people suggest good brands? I am very worried about chemicals, and made in china products because there really seems to be no regulation at all.
Hey Shasta:
What bone-in raw do you give your kitties? I would like to try that on my kitties.
Thanks!
Hi All, I am finding this raw food forum so interesting, just read it thru from beginning to end! I’m not ready to feed raw yet, actually got started on DFA to check the rating for my dog’s kibble. However, I’m wondering about adding some raw to Jake’s diet. He’s a beagle mix, 30ish pounds, 9 years old, good health. Can I just throw a chicken liver or 2 in with his kibble? Give him a wing or back as a treat? A chunk of stew beef now and then? Can he have a chicken thigh for dinner in place of his kibble some days? And what is this 2 week freeze I’ve heard mentioned? Do I need to freeze all meat before I give it to him? Am I killing a parasite by doing this? He loves fruits and vegies , he gets whatever I’m eating that day. Better to cook/steam them or just let him have it raw? Will still give kibble, at least for now so not worried about him needing supplements. Also, can I feed my cats the same way? Some chicken or beef in addition to their regular food? Can a cat chew up a chicken wing safely? Or more likely, a piece of a wing? Thanks!
Sometimes Maddy gets some raw. We give Millie a piece of bone-in raw daily, and I encourage Maddy to chew on it a bit.
