[Susan]

Hi my boy suffers with Food Sensitivities & Environment allergies.. your best of doing an elimination food diet to make sure she is sensitive to chicken?? My boy is sensitive to chicken he gets red paws, itchy ears, itchy skin & sloppy poos, as soon as I feed cooked or raw chicken his paws went red & hot within 20mins, also when he eats a kibble with
barley, corn, maize, gluten meal….
“Taste Of The Wild” puppy formulas both are chicken free & no chicken fat….one is Pacific Stream puppy with Smoked Salmon the other one is High Prairie Puppy with Roasted Bison & Roasted Venison….your better off feeding the Salmon kibble. Fish is a cooling meat where beef isn’t my boy itches when I made him Beef rissoles now I feed pork rissole with sweet potato for dinner & the Taste Of The Wild Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb kibble for breakfast, the TOTW Sierra Mountain is an all life stages kibble & can be feed to a puppy & is chicken free. send TOTW an email ask for some puppy samples & All Life Stages kibbles for a large breed puppy & their booklet so you can read ingredients & which kibbles are All Life Stages kibbles…their samples are pretty big..

also BATHS are the best when your dog has environment allergies, I bath weekly sometimes twice a week depends if Patch is itchy & scratching after a walk…Baths wash off any pollen & allergen that are on their fur & skin & relieve any itch when you wash in the right shampoo I bath Patch in Malaseb medicated shampoo. I also wipe him down with Huggie baby Cucumber & Aloe wipes after going on our daily walks… http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/
Another chicken free kibble is “Holistic Select” Salmon & Anchovy & Sardine Meal Adult & Puppy Health is suppose to be really good for itchy dogs…
http://www.holisticselect.com/
If after changing kibble to an all fish kibble & your dog is still itchy red eyes then book an appointment to see an Dermatologist they are better then a vet, dearer but a Dermatologist knows all about allergies & the skin you’ll end up saving money vets just put the dog on a vet diet & give antibiotics & steroids….Have you tried an antihistamine?? especially her eyes are you sure its not a turned in eye lash?? that can cause irritation & infection, I’d see a new vet for her eye…
besides the red eyes is she itchy all over her body & scratching, red paws or itchy ears?? she may just need the eye drops & be put on a premium kibble..

[pitlove]

Hi Tonya

Welcome to the forums!

Tripett is a canned variety of green beef tripe that is a great topper for kibble because it has a perfect 1:1 ca/phos ratio.

Basically as I’m sure you have learned, excessive calcium and excess weight gain are the two major causes of bone growth disorders in growing large breeds. Some of these diseases don’t manifest until later in life, some manifest early on and then clear up. Either way it is important to feed a food appropriate for a growing large breed. The calcium to phos ratio should not exceed 1:5:1 and the calcium to calorie ratio should not exceed 3g/1000kcals.

Here is the issue….some foods make the claim “All Life Stages” which does mean it can be fed to a puppy or an adult. However, that does not always mean a LBP. Natural Balance makes the claim “All Stages, All Breeds” however that may or may not be true depending on what their nutritional philosophy regarding LBP’s is. Some companies are running on the old tired myth that protein is the main cause of bone growth disorders, dispite this theory being debunked some 20 years ago. They put so much emphasis on low protein that they ignore the calcium content.

Some companies list their “nutrient analysis” right there on their website, which I love! Some do not and you have to email the company and ask for it. Reason this is important is because there is a great tool on DFA here in that thread we orginally were talking on that lets you put in the MAX calcium, MAX phos and the calories/kg of the food and it tells you the calcium/phos ratio and the calcium/calorie ratio. However, you can not use the MIN numbers found on the bag. It does not tell you the true amount of calcium contained in the food. When using the MIN numbers, just about every food on the market would look LBP safe lol.

When it comes to feeding guidelines on the bag, they are simply a guideline. NB is a lower calorie food, so in order to meet the dogs daily caloric requirements, more food needs to be fed. Higher calorie foods would require less. One issue with feeding SO much less than the guidelines is the dog becoming nutrient deficient over time.

A lot of factors come in to play in keeping a dog lean. Being spayed/neutered will decrease metabolism, being less active, consuming too many calories in ratio to what is being burned. Personally, I would reward with something like green beans instead of the Zuke’s treats you are using if you are doing a lot of training with her and she is getting a lot of treats. We don’t use a lot of treats in my house because I’m very careful with my dogs weight. I have 3 kinds of treats right now, each with different kcals/treat and I use them based on how much excersize I feel they have done that day. Many days they don’t get a treat at all because I’m also incorporating raw into their kibble, so that takes up the calories of the treats. Praise is also a good training reward vs a treat.

[Kathleen C]

OK, I neither have a large and giant breed dog nor is he a puppy, but at my local pet store they sell Old Mother Hubbard treats. I didn’t look to see if they contain green tea, but after reading this I certainly will not buy any for my Boston Terrier. Glad I checked here first.

[april a]

I have a 6 month old mix breed pup with the rescue identifying only Pyranees but she is/will be smaller I believe – she is 33 lbs at 6 months old. But the vet suggested that it would be a good thing to have her on large breed puppy food.

Another issue is that her eyes/innerlids are red, with one eye being much redder than the other with a little greenish discharge. The vet did not look closely and even though I expressed concern about infection she suggested that allergies were most likely, and possibly to choose food with no chicken. Then if after a diet change it didn’t improve, to use a steroid based eye drop. ( And I am still worried about an infection instead)

But in trying to follow the vets advice, I am having a difficult time finding a large breed puppy food without chicken. I have found ONE but I can’t find any mention of it here on DFA although as a newb I might not be looking in the right place. The food I found is Fromm Family Grain-Free Heartlnad Gold Large Breed Puppy with RED MEAT. It has Beef, Pork Meat Meal, Peas, Lentils, Chickpeas, Potatoes …. Crude Protein 26 Crude Fat 14 Crude fiber 6 and Moisture 10. Can’t find mention of Calcium…

Looking for advice, and if the above food is a good choice. Thanks very much.

[Darek N]

I have 15 month old Golden Retriever and following this forum since I got him also feeding him the rcomended food from the list of safe for large breed. He is not a big fan of kibbles so I got Tripett for toping and he loves it and eats everything no problem. I couldn’t find and answer how often and how much of Tripett can I add to his food. Right now I give him a spoon of Trippet to every meal. Is that ok? Thank you for your help

[pitlove]

Hi Jennifer-

To answer your first question, those numbers are the recommendation from the NRC (National Research Council) which in conjuntion with AAFCO, sets the minimums for the nutrient profiles in all dog foods. As far as I know there is no legal obligation to NRC for companies unlike AAFCO, however they influence AAFCO greatly and are a good rule of thumb. These are nutrient guidelines you would want to consider in preparing homemade and raw diets as well.

For number 2, my best advice is what you already know. Keep them lean, all throughout life. I find that I can still feed my older large breed (8 year old 75lb Lab) high calorie foods, but still keep him at a good weight, so long as I consider his activity level and any extras that he gets. I also do prefer leaner meats like chicken, turkey and fish. The other thing that certainly helps their metabolism is them being intact. It’s going to be much different with neutered/spayed dogs, as their energy requirements change. It’s said now, with some of the new research, that senior dogs require more of a high quality protein because of their inability to metabolize protein as efficently as their adult counterparts. Some still argue that high protein damages the kidneys etc. Others argue that processing excess protein is a passive process of the kidneys and has no effect on a healthy dog.

[Jennifer H]

Ok so I have two questions to pose for my fellow Large/Giant Breed folks:

1 – In the article “How to Choose the Best Large Breed Puppy Food and Lower Your Dog’s Risk of Hip Dysplasia” it states:

“Yet fortunately, there’s general agreement among the experts that any food intended for large breed puppies should not only meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for growth, it should also contain:
◾3500 to 4000 calories (kcal) per kilogram of food14
◾3 grams of calcium per 1000 calories of food. That value should not exceed the safe upper limit of 4.5 grams15
◾A calcium-to-phosphorus ratio between 1:1 and 1.5:116
Although most AAFCO compliant puppy foods are suitable for small and medium breeds, only a few meet these special guidelines and can be considered safe for large breed puppies. ”
I am in complete agreement on the grams of calcium and the calcium to phosphorus ratio, but can’t help but wonder about the recommendation to have what I would consider high calories per kilogram of food? Please share your thought and opinions on this as it has me scratching my head:)

Ok, for question 2 — this is a great sharing of information regarding the nutritional needs for Large/Giant breed puppies but I am wondering once your BIG PUPPY reaches adult status and is now a BIG DOG, what is the general opinion/consensus of nutrition needs for the adult or even the senior large/giant breed?

[pitlove]

Hi gmc-

No I have not looked into the new PetKind tripe dry food, so I could not tell you. Well not for large breed puppies at least.

[crazy4cats]

Hi again-
The food that worked the best for my dogs when they were going through a similar stage was a Victor’s grain free formula. But I’m not sure if it is suitable for a growing large breed pup. You also may want to think about using a supplement that contains a probiotic and ingredients that help soothe and heal the gut. I like and still use from time to time supplements such as Perfect Form, Vetri Pro BD, Gastriplex, Forti Flora or Phytomucil.

I have two lab/retriever mix male siblings who turn five this week. We had a rough start too, but are doing well now and can rotate between a few different kibbles and toppers finally without issue.

Best of luck to you. I know it’s stressful!

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by crazy4cats.

[gmcbogger38]

Since Tripett is perfect for large breed puppies, do you think the dry food PetKind now makes would also be alright?

[pitlove]

Truthfully the best topper and only one I would recommend for a large breed puppy is Tripett. It has a perfect 1:1 ca/phos ratio.

[pitlove]

Hi Danielle-

The ratings on this website do not reflect disgestibility or bioavaialability of nutrients. These things are far more important to consider than a star rating. Also keeping in mind you will need a large breed puppy food. I would take a look at Dr. Tim’s Kinesis (not grain free) and NutriSource Large Breed Puppy.

[Susan W]

VeRUS has a puppy formula for large breed dogs (who will grow to be more than 60 lbs) and a smaller (average?) puppy formula. I’m very happy with their adult foods. Maybe you should try them. If you go to their website (http://www.veruspetfoods.com) you can fill out a form and they’ll send you samples. The samples arrive quickly and have a lot in them.

[Susan W]

VeRUS has a puppy formula for large breed dogs (who will grow to be more than 60 lbs) and a smaller (average?) puppy formula. I’m very happy with their adult foods. Maybe you should try them. If you go to their website (http://www.veruspetfoods.com) you can fill out a form and they’ll send you samples. The samples arrive quickly and have a lot in them.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Patricia,

I second C4C’s recommendation for a fecal test. I also second her recommendation for NutriSource, which is generally well tolerated by sensitive stomachs.

I looked at the NutriSource Large Breed Puppy (grain-inclusive formula) and it has 4% fiber. I also looked at the three foods you specifically mentioned and with the exception of the Royal Canin (of which, I’m not a fan), the others are pretty high in fiber. How is he doing on the Eukanuba? Any loose stool while eating that? Right now, whatever he’ll eat and does well on is what he should be eating. Prolonged loose stool can actually do more damage. His digestive tract is healing when he’s not having the loose stool, even if that means temporarily using the I/D – at least the Calcium is OK for a LBP in the I/D.

I’ve been through this with my Golden when he was a pup and finally have a good handle on things. What I would do is sit down and look at all of the foods you’ve fed him. See if there’s anything in common in those foods that he doesn’t do well on and those he does. Compare ingredients and nutrient profiles. Sometimes it’s a fiber issue, sometimes it’s an ingredient issue, sometimes it’s a protein issue.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Patricia T-

Did the vet do a fecal test? Giardia, worms and Coccidia are common for young pups. NutriSource has a large breed puppy dog food that you may want to give a shot. And as Anon mentioned, make sure not to overfeed!

Here is a link that I find helpful: http://www.dogaware.com/health/digestive.html

Good luck!

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by crazy4cats.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Patricia T]

I really need some advice on dog food with this guy! My neutered Labrador puppy is eight months old and was sent home by the breeder at eight weeks old with Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy Dry Dog Food. He was a slow eater and we decided to switch to a higher-rated food. Since then, we have tried these:

Royal Canin Labrador Retriever Puppy Dry Dog Food
Wellness CORE Grain-Free Puppy Formula Dry Dog Food
Fromm Heartland Gold Grain-Free Large Breed Puppy

He loved all of them (ate fast and finished bowl) but they all produced an abundance of runny stool, and he was going at least four times a day while fed twice. We’ve gone back to the Eukanuba, but it’s obvious that he hates it – he only nibbles at the bowl.

The Hill’s® Prescription Diet® i/d® Canine Dry from the vet is great, and they offered to let us keep him on it, but it isn’t a puppy food. Does anyone have any suggestions for another puppy food that maybe isn’t as rich as the ones we tried before?

Thank you for any suggestions!

[pitlove]

Hi Rikki and welcome-

I can appreciate your desire for science based medicine. To touch on a the points you hit on, no protein is not a factor in terms of correct growth for large and giant breeds. However, Dr. Rebecca Remillard ACVN states on her website petdiets.com, that growing puppies do not require a food with more than 25% protein.

Absolutely, by no means, should you feed your mastiff an adult maintenance diet. This is a tired old myth still thought to be true because it “worked” 30 years ago. Companies are now producing large breed puppy diets designed specificially for slow growth.

The safe upper limit for your calcium and phos ratio is 1.5:1. However, you also need to pay attention to the calcium to calorie ratio as well to keep the pup lean during growth. Overfeeding is a huge factor in devlopmental orthopedic disorders.

As for the choice of food….the two companies that have done the most research on large and giant breed puppy growth and nutrition are Hill’s and Purina. Selecting a large breed puppy diet from either of those companies would be fine. I do understand that some are opposed to using a food from either of those two companies. Dr. Tim’s Kinesis which you mentioned earlier, is safe for a growing giant breed, is formulated by a vet and a nutritionist and has been feed trialed. All qualities that are excellent to have in a food. Not to mention it comes in a 44lb bag on chewy.com. This would probably be my first choice for a budget friendly, good large breed puppy food, not from Hill’s or Purina.

Here is a good article to read that is posted on DFA here:

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

and this is another from the persepctive of a veterinary nutritionist, that outlines DOD’s and large breed puppy nutrition fairly well:

https://msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

[pitlove]

Yes, this has thread has become a great platform, for those who are passionate or have questions, to dicuss the unique dietary needs of large and giant breed puppies.

That is awesome! It is refreshing to see someone put thought and effort into a raw diet for giant puppies rather than just taking any old recipe off the internet.

That is wonderful that you breed and do rescue work. I dislike that responsible breeders get a bad rap. The next puppy I will most likely be getting is a Cane Corso and I already have a breeder picked out. I’ve seen one of her puppies first hand at the small pet store I work for and he was stellar! Thank you for the work that you do with pitbulls. I am a pitbull owner, advocate and lover myself. They need more support!

Umm, I kind of forgot how to post pictures myself lol. Let’s see if I can remember…

No I keep failing trying to do it…

[Jennifer H]

Wow, I love this. It is so good to be able to learn and share information about nutrition for the big guys. As for me and my food, yes I consulted with vets, nutritionists and other giant breed breeders who have fed RAW before switching my adults. Then I did more research and consulting before starting puppies on such a diet. I am a breeder of Saints and also work with rescue for any large/giant breeds that come into shelters in my area. I have fostered Mastiffs, Great Danes, Pitbull’s, Rottweilers and more over the years. Most shelters aren’t equipped to house giant breeds or aren’t allowed to even take in Pitbulls, so I am on their list to call when these breeds come in. I would gladly post photos but am new to this and not sure how?

[pitlove]

I totally agree about keeping all large and giant breeds lean. I have 2 big guys and I am very picky about the way I feed them and how lean they are! My 8 year old Lab still has good mobility and can run like crazy.

I take it you breed Saints? Did you work with a nutritionist for your recipes for the puppies?
I would be highly nervous too about feeding a homemade raw diet to a giant breed puppy, but it sounds like you put a lot of work into it before trying it out on the litter.

Post some pictures if you have any!!

[Jennifer H]

Thanks. Keeping any dog/puppy at a healthy weight is important but for large/giant breed puppies I can’t stress enough how dramatically proper weight can impact their entire life. As for my puppies, yep I do feed my puppies an all natural RAW diet. I have tested and formulated my mix to ensure it is not only balanced but also to ensure it has the right Calcium and Phosphorus levels for a giant breed puppy. I will admit, the first time I gave a litter of puppies a raw chicken back at about 5 weeks of age I was scared to death. I was simply amazed at how well they took to it. I am now tracking the health and development of the puppies I have kept and continue to feed raw as well as the health and development of the puppies that have gone to new homes and are eating different foods. It is a lot of work, but it is worth it to me. I looked at the commercial RAW diets and kibbles available and just didn’t find any that I felt truly addressed the needs of the large and giant breed dogs, so….. I just took the plunge

[Brenda G]

My 12 year old box was told she had cancer and acute renal failure (acute = early renal = kidney). The vet insisted that unless I paid $200 a week for special hill’s K/D (or any other prescription diet) she would die and regardless she would die in 6 months. I was heart broken I couldn’t afford $200 a week. I had at the time 2 other dogs and a horse. So I cried for about a day straight (ok probably a lot longer than that), I love my dogs just like everyone here. I had to do my research and find the best alternative to the prescription diet. So I asked the vet if you could recommend anything else what would it be? That’s the only thing that she was willing to recommend also should mention this vet sells the dog food but was willing to give me a prescription for it to get it else where. The vet was willing to tell me that the two important things in a K/D diet were protein and phosphorus. I did my research and I called every major manufacture (iams and pedigree share the same phone number apparently a company called mars 1-800-675-3849) etc. Most dog foods contain around 0.8% phosphorus so I was looking for anything with less. I found one blend of dog food what wasn’t weight ( the weight control tastes gross and she wont eat it) controlled the price was more than reasonable at about $22 for 27lbs which would last my two dogs 2 weeks (now we have one other dog but it last them a month) This is a no sugar added no dyes and no artificial preservatives dog food (for all three brands). Here’s the kicker I could only buy it online in large bags or drive like 20mins plus for smaller more expensive bags(I had two large breed dogs and one small breed). I contacted Iams this week because the price of the dog food had sky rocketed to 47 (on amazon) which is way too much and Walmart wasn’t showing when it would be back in stock or at all. Come to find out they discontinued it 8months ago. I searched high and low and found blue buffalo (aka blue diamond) had about the same values but there have been 1400 consumer complaints and many recalls of their food and the same with purina. I did contact both companies and they did offer weight control alternatives to the dog food I was currently feeding. But again both companies had poor recall records and a lot of dogs were getting sick from their brands from diarrhea or vomiting and worse sometimes death. As my dog is a boxer she’s a natural gas bag so feeding her anything that would further upset her already delicate gastric intestinal systems is absolute a no no. Oh i forgot to put in the numbers, so when this all started I had her blood ran to see where she was at she had high phosphorus and high protein so I switched to this dog food “Iams so good Savory chicken” then took her to a different vet which was much further away by about an hour and half. The vet said that her levels still showed problems but dogs with her levels lived years so keep doing what i was doing. Anyway I’m writing today about this discontinued product because I think people should know about it. Call the number I put in and ask iams to start making the product they claim that the sales were poor but I assure you it ran out online all the time and it would sky rocket in price then drop back down. This is a good alternative to $200 a week. And they are not telling people enough about their product to say hey try this it might help your wallet and your dog. I have seen someone write about primal or nature’s as well as lotus which is really really really expensive. If there is enough pressure on iams they will bring the food back. This is working and its not breaking my already busted pocket book. It really shouldn’t be about money but when you dont have money to spend like that it kind of is the best you can afford. Once supply runs out they dont make any more and I cant find anything that she will eat. I’m not saying I know better than a vet. I am not buy any means a vet however I tested it before I put her on it full time. Switched her from pedigree normal nutrition for a week then had her blood checked again. About a year ago they gave my dog 6 months. As long as she has a good quality of life I’m happy. I’m going to buy a few smaller bags to give myself time to research incase they dont change their mind but so far the ones that are the best make your dog sick. I have done tons of research both this time and last time when I found the iams so good. It really makes me angry that people are buying it but stores wont carry it.

I found the perfect dog food Iams so good savory chicken (as well as their salmon and their beef have all the same % this is the beef but its the same as the chicken) The arrows show the two important values to a dog with liver problems

Crude Protein, minimum 21.00% <—-
Crude Fat, minimum 10.00%
Crude Fiber, maximum 5.00%
Moisture, maximum 10.00%
Linoleic Acid, minimum 1.9%
Calcium,minimum 0.65%
Phosphorus, minimum 0.5% <—-
Iron, minimum 225 mg/kg
Zinc, minimum 160 mg/k
Vitamin E, minimum 80 IU/kg

[CircaRigel]

It’s been a while, and I thought I’d provide an update on Galen, now 19 months old, technically an adolescent for a giant breed (Shiloh Shepherd), but no longer a puppy. However, I did go through a number of adjustments to his diet as he grew up, and thought I’d discuss them. I’ll first discuss kibbles, since that is generally the area where improper calcium and phosphorus content causes problems. Brands discussed include Eukanuba, Holistic Select (and other WellPet brands), Canidae, Taste of the Wild, Fromms, Tripett, and my absolute favorite and the most impressive, nutritionally… Darwin’s Natural Selections. I will also briefly touch on treats. Every choice I’ve made for Galen has come about via extensive research, wanting only the very best for Galen’s growth and health, for he is training as my service dog. My first responsibility is to him, even before looking after myself, for it is his responsibility to always be looking after me. Besides… I consider him family on equal par to my most beloved family members. I have linked the Dog Food Advisor pages for Galen’s finalized diet at the bottom of this post.

Galen’s breeder weaned her litter on Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy diet. After his adoption, I transitioned him to Fromm’s, which is what his breeder now weans her puppies on, but his stools were often quite soft. There was a brief period when I tried Holistic Select Large breed puppy, but rapidly transitioned away from it when Galen became ill. As it happens, ALL kibble foods made by WellPet (Wellness, Holistic Select, Old Mother Hubbard, Eagle Pack) contain green tea extract. While the very small amounts are probably not harmful to most dogs, particularly since it’s being taken with food, I found a number of studies that were halted because of dogs dying after being given green tea extract on an empty stomach. There is no way I can know for certain, but I suspect Galen is somehow particularly susceptible to toxic effects from it, even in small doses. So I began researching foods, and I liked the nutrition profile for some of the Canidae varieties, and while they were not specifically puppy or large breed diets, I contacted Canidae to make sure I chose a variety with the proper calcium and phosphorus ratios for proper bone growth (Canidae has recently been shifting their manufacturing away from Diamond pet foods, with a new processing plant in California). He did well on this, but didn’t like it much. Since he’s rather thin (but not so much as to be unhealthy, according to his vets at Alameda East, the same hospital where Animal Planet’s “Emergency Vets” was filmed, as it’s closest to where I live), I decided to change things up again when he was about a year old. Since he now was at an age where his calcium metabolism was properly established (generally puppies older than 8 months old can properly metabolize calcium, without the need to limit it so much), it broadened the choices of available foods for him. So, I made a list of grain free foods on Dog Food Advisor with 4+ ratings, focusing especially on 5 star rated foods, and ordered a bunch of sample packs for him to try from K9Cuisine. Of all of the foods he tried, he preferred the 5 star rated varieties of Taste of the Wild best. While I’m not fond of the record of Diamond pet foods, I trust the ratings of Dog Food Advisor (except the high ratings of kibbles by WellPet brands, for the previously mentioned Green Tea toxicity risk). Anyway, to keep things interesting for his palate, I now transition between the three 5 star rated varieties of TOTW for dry food.

Canned foods: From very early on, I had Galen eating Tripett green beef tripe as his wet food. I chose this because green tripe contains the nutrients of what the cow ate as well as the nutritional value and digestive enzymes that are naturally inherent to tripe. I have tried other varieties of canned foods, but Galen usually turns his nose up at them after a few days, when the novelty wears off. There has been a single exception, though, which I also supplement his diet with. That is Darwin’s Natural Selections raw foods. Back when I was letting Galen choose from among the samples I got for him, I also got the $15 introductory sample of the Darwin’s food (10 lbs variety pack), which included free shipping on dry ice. Their foods are raw, made from free-range, organic animal sources and organic vegetables. They come in easy to open plastic packets. Dog Food Advisor not only rates it 5 stars, but enthusiastically recommends the foods. They have never had a recall. I was quite surprised to find that the food was packaged and frozen just a few days before it shipped to me. Now, Once you have had the trial and go to their subscription plan, the cost is far higher, plus shipping on dry ice. It’s too high for me to feed to Galen exclusively or even as half his diet, so I subscribe to it as a supplement to his regular diet, feeding him 2 lbs a week. I get him all varieties, which include chicken, turkey, duck, beef, and bison. Of all of the foods I’ve ever fed a dog, This has been by far of the highest quality I’ve encountered.

Galen is incredibly picky even with treats, generally preferring single-ingredient, meat based treats. These have included Simply Lamb (freeze dried lamb), PureBites freeze dried chicken breast, PureBites freeze dried duck liver, and Primal freeze dried Nuggets (lamb), although the nuggets I use more as an occasional supplement rather than a treat. Galen turns his nose up at most other treats, even jerky treats. That’s fine by me. I rather like seeing only one ingredient listed, which leaves me zero doubts of there being anything in it that is unnecessary to his health (i.e. preservatives).

On a final note, around holidays I like to make a turkey stock from the leftovers and carcass (bones removed, of course, after cooking so that nutrients specific to the bones leach into the stock, like the marrow). That turkey stock is for Galen, as a special treat supplementing his food.

So… Galen’s final adult diet:
Taste of the Wild (wetlands, High Prairie, and Canyon varieties)
Tripett Green Beef Tripe
Darwin’s Natural Selections raw (beef, bison, chicken, turkey, and duck)

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by CircaRigel.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by CircaRigel.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by CircaRigel.

[pitlove]

Hi gmcbogger38-

Grain free and grain inclusive are a non-factor in proper growth for a large or giant breed. Whichever route you choose the only things that matter and effect growth is the calcium and making sure you keep the dog at an optimal weight. Of course genetics will always factor in, but nutritionists are finding that a proper diet greatly improves the chances of avoiding DOD’s.

[Salz]

Triet- the biggest difference (IMO) between raw frozen and dehydrated raw is that all of the moisture has been removed from the dehydrated. There is some heat used in the dehydration process so some consider it to be of less nutritional value. Dehydrated raw is easier to store ; all that is required for feeding is to add water and allow the moisture to seep back in. Frozen raw is just that; frozen raw meat that is usually thawed before being fed. I prefer frozen because it is less processed. Both are excellent choices.

As far as kibble, Orijen is great IMO for adult dogs only. All of the adults I’ve had have thrived on it, though I agree that there are other quality kibbles for a fraction of the price. If you are keen on feeding kibble, I recommend Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy.

[gmcbogger38]

*If this was already answered in this thread please let me know.

I have a question regarding grains. I have read articles written by some veterinarians who say if you feed kibble only feed grain free. I have also read articles written by other veterinarians who say you should never feed a large or giant breed puppy strictly grain free because it affects growth. All 3 of my dogs are older and my Saint Bernard didn’t come into my life until she was about 2 years old, so I didn’t deal with this issue much. They eat mostly grain free, but do well on some grain inclusive formulas (I like to rotate).

I may be getting an 8 week old Saint Bernard puppy in a few weeks (currently being weaned onto Earthborn Coastal Catch). He is also smaller than the other puppies and I want to make sure he receives optimal nutrition.

Has anybody with giant breed puppies noticed any pros or cons feeding either exclusively grain free or grain inclusive foods for growing giant puppies?

[pitlove]

Yes you can mix Trippett with dry.

I find Orijen to be too expensive. I think there are better foods out there that are much cheaper. I think my two personal favorites at this time are Dr. Tim’s Kinesis and NutriSource Large Breed Puppy.

[pitlove]

Personally, I would wait on the raw diet til she is older if she already has a curved back. I personally do not know if the curvature is something that can be fixed or not at this point. I think you need to find a large breed puppy food that she enjoys eating and stick closely to the feeding guidelines until she is 18 months old. If you want to supplement with something to encourage her to eat the only thing I would recommend is Trippett.

https://www.chewy.com/petkind-tripett-original-formula/dp/44461

[pitlove]

Hi Triet-

Has the 7 month old gone to the vet? If so, what did he/she say about the curved back? If she hasn’t gone I would bring her.

It is very important to feed 2 meals a day and measure out each meal. Overfeeding can cause issues with bone growth and joints.

Also you do not need to use a supplement when feeding a food that is properly balanced for a large breed puppy. Stop the supplement ASAP. It is probably doing more harm than good.

[Triet S]

Hello !
– After read this instruction /best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/. I have question about this sentence. Please, explain to me what is it mean.
“Don’t use nutritional supplements when feeding your large breed puppy any commercial diet.””

– My Akita Inu 7months puppy get a curve back. What should I do for her now ?

[pitlove]

Hey all here is the response I got:

You submitted the following question to the PetDiets website.

Your Question:
In regards to large breed puppy foods. Is it safe for the calcium to calorie ratio to fall below 3g/1000 kcals?

Response from our Nutritionist:
The NRC 2006 min is 2.0 g Ca/Mcal for growth and we know no different for large puppies.

Respectfully,
R Remillard, PhD, DVM, DACVN

[Wabi S]

Yes, I’m referring to this food.

https://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold/technical-analysis/

[Salz]

Hey sorry to butt in here but I’m interested in this as well… The large breed puppy info on DFA doesn’t specify if the Ca/kcal can be lower than 3. I’ve always assumed that it should be between 3-4.5 but I wonder if slightly lower is ok…I know that some large breed puppy kibbles are definitely lower than 3g; I believe Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy is one of them.

[pitlove]

Hi Wabi-

Only 2 of Taste of the Wilds formulas are safe for a growing large breed puppy. Those would be both of their formulas that say “puppy” on the bag, however they are all lifestages foods.

The recommended calcium to calorie ratio for a large breed puppy food is 3g/1000 kcal or lower and should not exceed the safe upper limit of 4.5g.

[anonymously]

What about sodium? Orijen has less sodium than other commercial brands, Orijen has larger kibble and tends to be higher in calories so you use less of it, just add a topper.

I don’t know much about this large breed calcium thing. We had a large mixed breed years ago that lived to be 18 on one can of Calo a day. I can count on one hand the times he went to the vet…..however, I know that things are different now.

PS: I would find a veterinarian that you like and trust and see what he recommends. I have learned that this is important.
There is a lot of misinformation on the internet.

[Wabi S]

Hello,

First post, but I’ve been reading here a few days.

I have a 12 week old purebred Saint Bernard puppy. She’s currently on Eagle Pack but I’d like to switch her to something else, I’m thinking either Orijen if I can afford it on a regular basis (I heard their prices went up and their bag size is going down) or Fromm Gold Holistic Large Breed Puppy. $50 or under is ideal, but I can probably budget a little more if the food is worth it. Any suggestions? Also, how long should I be feeding puppy food?

An as aside, if it helps anyone, I contacted Taste of the Wild and they got back to me today. Here’s what they said about their food:

“Below are the calcium and phosphorous levels for all of our dry formulas. The levels below are based on an as fed basis of a typical analysis of the formula.

High Prairie Canine with Roasted Venison & Roasted Bison

Calcium: 2.1%

Phosphorus: 1.4%

Pacific Stream Canine with Smoked Salmon

Calcium: 1.9%

Phosphorus: 1.1%

Wetlands Canine with Roasted Wild Fowl

Calcium: 2.1%

Phosphorus: 1.4%

Sierra Mountain Canine with Roasted Lamb

Calcium: 1.6%

Phosphorus: 1.0%

Southwest Canine with Wild Boar

Calcium: 1.9%

Phosphorus: 1.1%

Pine Forest Canine with Venison & Legumes

Calcium: 1.4%

Phosphorus: 0.9%

Appalachian Valley Small Breed Canine with Venison & Garbanzo Beans

Calcium: 1.8%

Phosphorus: 1.2%

High Prairie Puppy with Roasted Venison & Roasted Bison

Calcium: 1.4%

Phosphorus: 1.0%

Pacific Stream Puppy with Smoked Salmon

Calcium: 1.3%

Phosphorus: 1.0%”

Hope this helps someone.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Wabi S.

[Susan W]

PitLuv – you are right, of course! I think I lost my brain somewhere yesterday. VeRus has a large breed puppy formula (which is where I think I was going…). That’s the beauty of their contact form: you fill it out, they write back with questions in order to recommend the best option, then they send samples. Their website has great info and their people actually put effort into customer contact.

[pitlove]

Hi Susan-

It has not been recommended for over 20 years (it’s been this long since we learned what truly causes DOD’s) to feed a large breed puppy an adult maintenance formula. There are plenty of correctly formulated large breed puppy foods out there now to risk it with an adult maintenance formula. Protein is also a non-factor for proper growth.

Larger kibble and probiotics don’t even begin to address the dietary needs of a LBP.

[goldenstar]

Thanks pitluv. I really appreciate all of the information that you share.
I will have to take a look at balance it again. My vet suggested it before with my other Golden.
I did check it out but it did not seem to have formulas for large breed puppies. I will check it again to be sure.
I also just got Dr Becker’s cookbook. It would be a healthy option. It seems like a daunting task though.
For the last few months of my other Goldens life I prepared Dr Dressler’s cancer diet so I can prepare foods, but just not sure yet.

[pitlove]

Sally- Awesome! I’m glad you found another option. You are very welcome for mentioning the calcium to calorie ratio!

goldenstar- I understand where you are coming from and I wasn’t suggesting that you take care of your animal in a way that makes you uncomfortable. At the end of the day, how anyone chooses to feed or raise their dog has no impact on my life. I have a passion for nutrition and large breed puppy growth so I enjoy discussing it with others and passing on information I’ve learned from nutritionists. I agree that food plays a big role in health, but I do feel there is more to health than that as I said. Have you considered having a homecooked diet formulated by a veterinary nutritionist for a large breed puppy? You may also wanna check out BalanceIt.com to see if they have a premade free recipe that is safe for LBP’s.

[goldenstar]

I do know that Goldens are prone to cancer…. due to their genitics for one reason. I may never know what the cause was for mine. I am just trying to reduce the risk if I can for my new girl in all areas of her life…. not just by reducing dried kibble in her diet.
Nutrition is a very big part in reducing the risk of cancer and most illnesses…..excersise, reducing stress, environmental toxins, genitics are some more things to consider for sure.
I too have fed kibble to my dogs throughout my life and some have lived long lives.
There does seem to be little research out there about kibble and carcinogens, but more information is being presented.
Here is one article by Dr Becker and how one researcher tested dogs to find carcinogens in their fur.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/05/27/cooked-meat-carcinogens.aspx
Now that I am aware of it, it is a little harder not to be concerned about it.
It looks like 4 and 5 star dried kibble may be best formulated to meet the the strict requirements for large breed puppies. Preparing a home cooked or raw diet is another option. But for me, it is a daunting task and I would still worry if my LBP was getting the right nutrition.
I really appreciate the important information that I have learned here.

[Salz]

Pitluv- you hit the nail on the head. The way we treat our animals has so much more of an impact than anything else. My childhood dog, Hoagie, ate grocery store kibble all his life. But we took him running, camping, swimming, everywhere with us. He lived to the ripe old age of 14 and still chased the frisbee with his blind eyes and wobbly hips on his last days.

For me, dog nutrition has become something I am vastly interested in. And thank you so much for mentioning the calorie aspect of dog food because upon further research I’ve concluded that the calcium to calorie ratio in S&C is WAY too high for large breed puppies. Darwin’s, on the other hand, is within healthy range in all aspects (cheaper for mom, too!)

[Kim B]

Mike,
I have giant schnauzer puppies, the breeder now uses Victor Active Dog & Puppy Formula.
First pup is 10 months old, new one is 8 weeks old. I want to know if this is a quality product?

When I got the first pup, tried Origen but it was too rich for her – Black stool and then diarrhea. Ended up trying 2 others with the same result and then ended up with Hills Diet Ideal Balance large breed puppy chicken and brown rice. Appears to be doing well, and shiny coat. Should I switch my new pup over?
Victor is rated 5 star but is not listed anywhere on editor’s choice. The Hills Diet Ideal Balance
was listed as a secondary or alternative choice for puppy foods?

How can I feed the right food when breeder tells me one thing, trainer says another, vet does not suggest a specific dog food only says no to certain brands and watch calcium level, and your forum says something else…Very confused and frustrated. The first 6 months are the most important for development and I am again unsure what is best. I know kidney issues are prone to this breed so a diet that is too rich can stress the kidneys over time. Please help!
Kim

[pitlove]

Hi goldenstar-

You are very welcome. The ratio of calcium to calories is often overlooked, but very important when it comes to LBP growth. Overnutrition (overfeeding) is a huge risk factor for DOD’s in large breeds. Watching calcium intake is so over emphasized now that the calories and creating a fat puppy are overlooked.

I would take what you hear on the internet about “the optimal diet for a dog” with a grain of salt. Here is an interesting article on raw diets that I found through Dr. Susan Wynn’s facebook. She is a holistic vet and veterinary nutritionist.

https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2014/12/12/your-dog-is-not-a-wolf-stop-trying-to-feed-it-like-one/

The author is a prey model raw feeder fyi.

[pitlove]

Hi Sally-

Yes the calcium to phosphorus ratio for Stella & Chewy’s seem to be fine, however you also have to be concerned with the calcium to calorie ratio. If that is too high, the food is not LBP safe dispite having an appropriate calcium to phos ratio.

To Jacob-

Rotating diets is not a bad thing. If you feel better switching from grain inclusive to grain free that is fine as well. I wouldn’t go overboard personally. I would pick 2-3 brands that have LBP safe foods and you could rotate those and then build more variety once you see the eating habits of the dog.

If I had to pick 3 grain free LBP foods Nulo Puppy would be my first choice since Nulo is one of the few companies that staff a full time veterinary nutritionist, second choice would be Fromm Prairie Gold Large Breed Puppy and lastly would be Orijen Large Breed Puppy.

I used to be very swayed by the grain free trend. I firmly believed that if you fed your dogs grain you were a terrible pet parent. Then I got a grip on reality. My dogs (even the one with allergies) do much better on a grain inclusive food. I also have a Chocolate Lab, who was found as a stray. No allergy issues at all. I think there is a place for grain free diets and they are beneficial to those dogs that need them, but I find that the vast majority of pet owners who want to feed grain free don’t even really know why they want to. They have just “heard” it was better and didn’t stop to question that authority.

[Shawna]

Hi Sally Z,

I haven’t fed any large breed puppies raw but I foster and I have had A LOT of puppies come through my house. The youngest was 3 days old when he came (with his mommy). I weaned him onto raw. Had another at 5 weeks old that ate raw right from first day coming to me. Just had three leave my house a few weeks ago that were six weeks old when I got them and put them all on raw the first night they were with me. I DO feed “complete and balanced” commercial raw foods because I think it is absolutely imperative to feed puppies a balanced diet (this, of course, can be done by those that home prepare too but I just don’t have the time any longer to do it right). I’ve been feeding a wide variety of commercial raw products for over 10 years and to date never had any issues. I do however prefer grass fed and organic but sometimes I have too many mouths to feed to be able to afford it.

Glad you found a food that works for both of your fur-kids!!!

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Shawna.

[Salz]

Hey pals! Thought I’d share with you all some insight I’ve gathered about Stella and Chewys in regards to large breed puppy nutrition.

I contacted the company directly and received a nice chart of the calcium and phosphorous percentages for each of their formulas AS FED. After calculating, I concluded that every formula except the Turkey had calcium to phosphorous ratios between 1.2 to 1 and 1.5 to 1, which to my knowledge is safe for large breed puppies (the Turkey is 1.9 to 1). I have a 4 month old Doberman mix who has struggled with GI problems since he was a baby due to premature weaning from his mother. I started him on this food yesterday and he’s had solid stools for the first time in weeks. I will keep you all updated on his progress but I thought you’d all be interested in this information.

[Salz]

Cannoli- thank you so much for your input. I’ve fed Orijen for a long time and really do trust their product. But I also am keen on understanding that some foods just aren’t right for certain dogs.

I went ahead and contacted Stella and Chewys to get the Calcium and Phosphorous percentages for each formula AS FED. Once I calculated the ratios, I concluded that every formula except the Turkey had a Calcium to Phosphorous ratio of 1.5 to 1 or lower which to my knowledge is safe for large breed puppies (The Turkey is 1.9 to 1). The S&C rep also helped me calculate some basic feeding guidelines for my puppy which I thought was very thorough and considerate of her! I picked up 2 packages of S&C yesterday and switched Jax over cold turkey from his turkey and rice. He’s had completely solid stools for the first time in weeks and has already began to act like himself. It could be coincidence or it could be the food but either way, I’m glad I did the research and will continue him on this food!

[Kim M]

Jacob,

If your head is not already spinning 🙂 haha..

I went with star rating and phos/calcium information from this thread, especially because of the large breed factor. It might be worth reading through this thread from page 1. Posts 12416 and 16665 start to touch on these. Hound Dog Mom has a great excel spreadsheet with some info in it. If I can locate the most current version, I will edit and add the link. That spreadsheet helped me narrow down to 4-5 options and then I did some minimal additional research from there such as price and reviews.

I would suggest you look at ordering online (fetch.com, chewy.com, amazon.com etc) as you get a discount for reoccurring orders and delivery is free with at a minimum order amount for many sites. Price/availability could certainly be a factor you will need to consider.

I was initially going to feed TOTW or Blue but agree with the comment above on past practices by the parent company.

EDIT: The spreadsheet is in link above by another poster. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1
I wanted to go with the meadow feast off the bat, due to lower calcium (1.2 versus the 1.3 in Coastal Catch) but the meadow feast chunks were a bit larger. As the formulas are consistent, our next bag will be the meadow feast flavor as she will be closer to 4-5 months by then.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Kim M.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Kim M.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by Kim M.