Hi ashylynn,
Since your dogs have been on commercial dog foods their whole lives I would not just switch them to raw. Dog’s digestive systems adjust to whatever type of food (raw, cooked, kibbled, canned, etc) that they are eating. In your case your dogs may have a hard time with the added bacteria present in raw due to the fact that the pH of their stomachs is not acid enough at the moment. Some dogs also do not like the taste of raw after all those years (or 13 months) of eating cooked foods. Lastly without knowing the state of your dog’s immune systems it can be pretty risky switching from kibble or canned to raw.
A home cooked diet of at least 75% meat and 20 to 25% non-starchy fruits and vegetables would be a great step up for your dogs without the added risks of raw. You could then gradually start cooking their food less and less and see how they do. If everything goes well they could eventually be eating a diet consisting of raw meats and pureed fruits and vegetables.
If you go the homemade route don’t forget to add calcium if they are not consuming raw meaty bones and a good multivitamin to balance out their diet.
You can add fruits and veggies if you want – but you don’t have to. If you do, make sure the veggies are cooked and pureed and the fruit is mashed or pureed. Cooking and pureeing helps to break down the cellulose making it easier for the dog to digest as dogs don’t produce cellulase (the enzymes necessary to breakdown cellulose).
Don’t add only organ meat – I suggested hearts and gizzards because they are considered muscle meat and are cheap. Organ meat would be liver, kidneys, spleen, lungs, etc. The only organ meat you’ll probably be able to find at a grocery store would be liver. Liver is fine to feed but feed it in moderation – it’s very nutrient dense and should account for no more than 5% of the diet. You could certainly buy ground meats, whole roasts and such and dice them (although these cuts are a bit more expensive). You could also supplement with a meal of raw meaty bones a few times a week if you aren’t opposed to feeding bones (pork necks, chicken leg quarters, turkey necks, etc.) – RMB’s will provide dental benefits as well.
RMBs have meat on them, that’s the M part. That’s also why I don’t feed them every day(even though I don’t have large breed dogs anymore, I’m still paranoid), you can afford to have 20% of your meals unbalanced, if you don’t get the calcium exactly right. Remember also that bones are not 100% calcium.
If you want to do RMBs every day you need some thing like 30 lbs of raw meaty bones and 15 lbs of boneless meat.
From MPC, you can get whole ground animals. They will have the right amount of meat, organs, and bone. The tripe supermixes are good too. About every third day, I give raw meaty bones. Feed about 2/3 raw meaty bones and 1/3 meat to get the bone to meat ratio right. An example would be feed 1 lbs of turkey neck plus 1/2 lbs of turkey meat. I have heard you should try to keep the calcium/phosphorus balance correct daily, it’s the other stuff that you can balance over time.
If they’re already eating raw foods then they *should* be ok. Nectarmom had a bad experience with it just recently. Her girls have pancreatitis.
Thanks, Sandy! They eat NV raw which is 12% fat and Bravo! Chicken – but I can’t remember the fat % in it. Along with Fromms, Earthborn, Wellness and such.
I did try a chic. wing one time and got scared that I never tried it again. I was just so nervous they would choke. I am getting the bigger raw bones at pet store next month when I go out of town.
I will feel safer w/ those. But the feet – I will let them try this wk. end and see how that goes.
Yes you can freeze them. I put mine in small bags 3 to a bag. Be sure to cut claws off before feeding. I’d start with 1/2 a foot and see how they react over a couple of days. Do your dogs normally eat mod-high fat foods? Have you tried just a small chicken wing? You can give a couple times a week for teeth cleaning after you’ve decided that they can handle it. And it’s good for making chicken stock. Recipes at eatmedaily(dot)com search for chicken feet.
I saw chicken feet at my grocery store this morning! I was grossed out and excited at the same time. LOL I know I’ve read here they are rich in glucosamine & chondroition, high in fat and perfect for smaller dogs.
Mine are 5-13 lbs. Do I give a whole one or half? How often should I give and can I freeze them?
The package had about 15 in it. Thanks.
Thank you Sandy. If anyone is close to me and or could use some free Darwins and My Pet Carnivore Raw let me know before I toss it out? I still have a box that I can ship it to you if you want to pay the shipping but I might need to find a meat place that could dry ice pack it for me if that is possible. This is a lot of Raw that would go to waste so please contact me at [email protected] if you want it. I just got 10lbs of duck and 10lbs of Bison from Darwin ‘s and I had maybe 10lbs left of turkey from Darwin’s. I have 2/ 5lb containers of ground young beef and 2/ 2lb containers of green tripe super mix, all from My Pet Carnivore. I also have a rib bone and 4/ marrow bones and these are all unopened like the Raw meat.
For any upright freezer I would consider how many shelves it has and are they adjustable or removeable incase I needed to put in custom racks. The one shelf I have that has about 100 lbs on it seems to be just slightly bulging downward and the sides of the rack aren’t very far into the sides of the freezer so I think it has the possibility of falling down. But you know, I have way too much food! The bones take up alot of space since they’re not anywhere near being uniform in shape.
My JRT is more prone to build up than any of my other dogs has ever been(all medium/large dogs). Raw meaty bones are keeping any issues in check enough that I scrape off a little every 6 months or so, but other than the professional teeth cleaning she got when I got her, she has not had another real teeth cleaning and hasn’t needed one. She used to have it done every year before I got her. I feed chicken necks, turkey necks, or some kind of ribs every third day. I think it is an issue of their teeth not changing in size as much as they did when they were bred down so much. Their teeth don’t line up quite the way they should. This is especially noticable in brachycephalic breeds. And it’s also a problem in miniature horses(I’m NOT brushing Smokey’s teeth, nor am I feeding him RMBs).
Hi Shelties Mom –
My dogs get RMBs for dinner every night and I brush their teeth daily. All three have pearly whites with no visible buildup – even my 8 year old senior. As far as small breed dogs being more prone to dental issues I can’t say for sure, I’ve never owned a small dog. I can say though, my grandmother has a 1 year old yorkiepoo that had visible buildup by 8 months of age (she eats dry kibble and gets bones a few days a week). I was a little shocked seeing buildup on such a young dog that eats quality food and gets bones. I’d be curious to hear experience from other small breed owners.
I have been reading about Ubiquinol supplement for dogs on Mercola’s site, does anyone give this supplement to your dogs? I don’t want to oversupplement but would like to add this if this is an essential supplement. I’m concerned about their dental health, despite brushing them daily, they still get tarter on front teeth and thought this might help? They get poultry necks and feet a few times a week but not hard bones such as marrow or leg bones. There are some black spots on their gums between teeth and been supplementing with Standard Process Bio-Dent, which seems to help reduce the redness. Any ideas?
Alright just a few questions because I am noticing things since my dogs have been on just Darwin’s meals and nothing else. They still have acid reflux and they are eating grass again like when they were on kibble? I give them Nyla bones to chew on and when they were on kibble they rarely chewed on them and now since being on all Raw Darwin’s meals they are tearing into the nyla bones. What in the world are they lacking? My shihtzu also threw up her morning meal of Darwin’s and then a couple of hours later I offered her more and she ate it without throwing any up. This is the first time she has done that in 5 weeks so seriously I am stumped on it and wondering why she is walking around now like she does not feel good and keeps sniffing her own behind? They all 4 are licking their feet like crazy once again and eyes are tearing really bad so I am wondering if this is still a detox that they are going through after being on Darwin’s for 7 weeks now? My one chihuahua has made her webs inbetween her feet raw and red from licking so much. What in the world??
Ok Thanks a lot. I also ordered the Dinner mixes from Steve Brown, Seespotlivelonger and his book. I don’t think I will do the veggie thing but just add the beef with Steve’s mix for now and see how that goes. You gals have been a lot of help and I Thank you for your patience with me and my questions
I agree with Sandy and Patty – I’d drop the lamb and mutton. While lamb is leaner than mutton, it’s typically still pretty high in fat. Bison or rabbit would be a good lean substitute. Sometimes MPC has “Bison Supermix” which is tripe and organs – my dogs love it.
As far as what to add, as long as the grinds contain meat/organ/bone I’d just suggest adding cod liver oil or tinned sardines a few days per week (omega 3’s and vitamin d), vitamin e, cooked/pureed vegetables and a whole food supplement (kelp, alfalfa, etc. – you can mix your own or buy a pre-mixed supplement). You can also add things like nuts, seeds, dairy, eggs, etc. a few days a week for some variety and added nutrients.
Mutton is a VERY fatty meat.
I believe lamb and mutton are fattier meats (as well as water fowl). I ground a duck and a goose in my grinder and I had to back out the fat custard that was created! Yuk!
Ok I played it safe and ordered the young beef chunks-10Lbs because it is lean and the green tripe 4Lbs because it is lean and we will go from there 🙂
I am going to order from My Pet Carnivore but I am wondering if I need to add any supplements to this meat orders? I want to feed all natural and lower fat and so they recommended Young beef chunks and so I added a few others to my order since these meats looked a bit lower in fat also. Does my shopping cart look ok for my Pancreatitis girl? Do I need to delete or add anything else from this company?? I need to order today so it will ship out Monday.
I am sorry for constant asking questions but I am such a newbie to feeding raw. Thank you very much 🙂
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YOUNG BEEF CHUNKS-5 LB.
010052 $11.45 $11.45
Ground Whole Mutton-2 LB.
010039 $7.50 $7.50
5 LB. Ground Chicken SUPERMIX
CGSM5 $10.75 $10.75
Ground Beef Trachea & Gullet-2 LB.
BGTG-2 $3.98 $3.98
Ground Lamb Supreme-2 LB.
LMSP-2 $7.75 $7.75
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Chicken feet are pretty high in fat.
I honestly don’t know. Skin is supposed to be fatty, so I would think that duck feet would be fattier than chicken feet. And they have some padding on their foot that may be fat. But I really don’t know.
Are chicken feet fatty? I am still looking at something my girls can chew on and I thought of chicken feet but I don’t want the same thing to happen that happened with the marrow bones? Pancreatitisis an issue for my one chihuahua. I can also get dehydrated duck feet at a local chain store so are those an option too? They are not raw though.
We just took a goat to the butcher for the first time. I found it strange to explain how I wanted him processed, so I wonder what I’ll end up with. The good news is he doesn’t have any problem saving all the organs for me. I even told him I wanted brains and eyes. He didn’t even blink when I asked him if he could grind all the organs together. That way I can portion them easier. Portioning 70 lbs of various goat parts will be interesting since I need it in 1 lbs packages…
Yay Cyndi! I have also recently (as in yesterday) started researching a raw food diet for my 50lb ACD. I found a page (and forgot to bookmark) that helped me decide that with his weight range, I should give him about 1000 Cal/day, or about 1.25lb each day of food, including boneless meat and raw meaty bones. HDM’s suggestions are great, and I went today all around town to local butchers, grocery stores, and even a vet that has knowledge and that supports raw food diets. I made a list of what each place had to offer based on who had better prices on things, especially harder to find things like beef hearts and turkey necks. Ended up buying 3 fryer chickens that were on sale for $0.77 a lb, and some other stuff on sale. My plan is to establish my budget that I can devote to this, price everything up, and start saving. And also to buy meat when I see it for a great price. We are lucky in my area to have access to a local butcher, several grocery stores (HEB has had the best selection of doggy type meats for decent prices) and also a natural/organic food store that has a ton of the great supplements that I have seen mentioned. Check the “Transitioning to raw” thread on this section of the forum, it has a lot of great info and I think a sample recipe from HDM. There’s also a thread “Suggested raw dog food menus” that has several recipes that HDM and others have posted.
Hi Cyndi –
It’s wonderful that you’re considering a raw diet for your dog!
Owning three large and active dogs, I can sympathize with you on wanting to keep things cheap. My tips for keeping raw feeding budget friendly would be:
1. Rely on chicken, turkey, pork and beef as your primary protein sources – they’re the cheapest per pound.
2. Rather than feeding boneless meat and supplementing with calcium, incorporate raw meaty bones (chicken necks, turkey necks, etc.) as the calcium source. RMB’s are much cheaper per pound than boneless meat.
3. Rely on hearts and gizzards as your primary source of muscle meat in the diet. While boneless skinless chicken breast might be more appealing to a person, there’s no reason dogs need to eat these expensive cuts of meat.
4. Add things like eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt or kefir to stretch the meal a bit with some cheap but high quality animal-based protein.
5. Avoid pre-ground meats, they’re generally more expensive. Feed meat in chunks or dice it yourself.
6. Buy bulk – try to locate a wholesale supplier. Shop the manager’s specials at the grocery store.
7. Use supplements made for humans rather than for dogs, believe it or not they’re generally much cheaper. I order from Swanson Vitamins (cheap, high quality, big variety).
Hi shelties mom –
I do believe that dogs should be fed a diet rich in joint maintaining compounds (glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, etc.) for a lifetime in order to promote optimum joint health. A dog’s natural ancestral diet which is rich in bones, cartilage and sinew, would naturally contain high levels of these joint health promoting substances. For those feeding a raw diet that includes bones/cartilage, it generally isn’t necessary to supplement with joint supplements unless the dog has an orthopedic condition (i.e. hip dysplasia) or until the dog reaches its senior years. For dogs not eating a species-appropriate diet I feel it’s a good idea to supplement the diet with whole foods naturally rich in joint health compounds (think fresh or dried trachea chews, gullet, poultry feet, etc.) or give a low dose of a joint support supplement for maintenance (the dosage can be increased as the dog ages or begins to show symptoms of arthritis). Some whole food supplements beneficial for joint health would be sea cucumber, shark cartilage or green lipped mussel (generally come in capsules or powder). A standard glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM supplement will also suffice. If a dog is showing signs of pain or inflammation it can also be beneficial to combine a joint maintenance supplement with a natural anti-inflammatory such as boswellia, yucca, turmeric, bromelain, tart cherry, etc.
Nectar mom, no there are no bones in tripe. I’m not sure if the fat levels but I do know that it is completely nutritionally complete and has a 1:1 phosphorus ratio
I might sound ignorant here but does Tripe have bones mixed in it and is it high in fat? I have heard so much about it being great for luxating patella that now I am curious.
Probably more than 6 months. The top shelf is just random bones. The very bottom drawer is 36 lb of pork. The next shelf up is 100 lbs of tripe/tripe blend in the laundry basket. The next shelf up is 20 lbs of chicken hearts in the blue bag and 50 lbs of beef blend in the brown box. The next shelf up is homemade 16 oz containers and 20 lbs of beef heart. The door has bags of kidneys and some other random bones. That photo was from November 2012 when I got my first order of texastripe products (250 lbs) and filled the freezer up with the new products and what was in the freezer already . I rotate my homemade containers or put them across from the old ones. And when the tubes get low then I order some more and just put the few old tubes on top or move them to the door.
Thanks HDM. Things are looking better today for my baby. Shes acting a bit normal and been eating the Darwin’s Raw twice a day with no issues so I am really sure now that it was the bone marrow.
I do have a question though. I bought some Sardines in a can of water and was wondering if it is ok to give her and the others a half of one of those without any issues? They did not seem to have too much fat in them but I don’t want to rock the boat anymore with my baby either? Everyone else can probably handle them but I don’t want to give them something without her getting something too…shes just a bit spoiled 🙂
Typically detox occurs when switching to a higher quality food – such as when switching from kibble (high carb, not species-appropriate) to balanced raw (low carb, species-appropriate).
Yeah we went through this again with the Brothers Allergy Formula but just not as long. I only notice it on her because she is black. So everytime I switch brands or proteins my dogs will go through a detox period? Well if the duck is lower in fat then I may give it a try and do what Darwin’s said to do and mix the turkey in with it. I would honestly like to stick with Raw but if it causes my Pancreatic girl issues then we will have no option but to switch her to a leaner food but so far the last 2 days shes been fine on it but she still is not like she was before he marrow bones. If I have to do it myself then I will but I am mainly concerned with balance if I go that route.
When we switched Micah, he lost his entire coat(not all at once) pretty quickly, but his new coat is so much better. His fur was dry and crunchy before, now it’s soft and shiny.
Generally duck is considered a fattier fowl – but it depends on what cuts of meat are being used. In the case of Darwin’s, the duck formula has less fat than the turkey – 22% in the duck and 27% in the turkey (dry matter basis). The increased shedding is probably detox – many dogs detox when switching from kibble to raw and shedding can be a sign.
I have been using Mercola enzymes for approx 3 months now and it has pancreatin in it. If there is another brand that you might think is better or has more in it that she could use please feel free to post it.
For now we are sticking with Turkey but before the Pancreatitis issue I spoke to Darwin’s about mixing in Duck and I recall the girl on the phone from Darwin’s said Duck is lower in fat? I was talking to a co-worker about it and she ordered her yorkie the turkey and she said it made her yorkie very sick but I would bet she did not do a slow transition. I asked her about trying Duck because her dog was on a duck kibble and she said Duck was too high in fat from what she read up on the different proteins??
Also something I noticed more of is that since we switched to Raw my Chihuahua that had the Pancreatitis has been dropping fur like crazy, shes a black short coat chihuahua. Last time that happened my vet said it was due to her missing something in her diet and so that is when we started food searching, we were using Azmira back then.
Do you supplement with digestive enzymes? Enzyme supplements that include pancreatin, in some cases, is believed to help reduce the risk of acute pancreatitis or control chronic pancreatitis. Pancreatin is comprised of the amylase, lipase and protease produced by the pancreas. The idea is that adding supplemental pancreatin to the diet of a pancreatitis prone dog will lessen the stress on the dog’s pancreas. Another option would be a pancreas glandular – most glandulars are derived from bovine sources so I’m not sure if that would trigger a sensitivity (I know you’re trying to stick to turkey for the time being). Just some things to consider.
It doesn’t have to be all white as long as it is lean turkey, dark meat has different fats than white meat and they have important nutrients in them too.
Thank you!! I am going to give it a shot and a slow transition. I wrote to Steve and he answered back very quickly and was very helpful so I am off to shop. Steve recommended that I feed as low in fat protein as possible to my one chihuahua that has Panceratitis and he also recommended sardines ( in water) not oil once a week or fish oil. He said I can feed veggies and fruits and probably should with my Pancreatitis girl. turkey is what we have been feeding so I imagine he means all white lean turkey.
All you need to add is meat and fish oil or tinned sardines. You can add extras (such as vegetables) but the extras are optional and should comprise no more than 20% of the meal. The volume would be similar to other raw foods – about 2% to 3% of the dog’s body weight.
I sure hope so Patty. I was looking at the Steve Browns website and it does not mention anything about adding extra veggies or fruits to the mix. Do you just add Raw or cooked Turkey to it and that is it? How do you know how much to feed at each meal? I looked throughout the website and may have missed it somewhere.
If she is eating the Darwin’s turkey now and doing fine, she may be fine with it. This is the time frame when she should be most likely to relapse. I would still look for something lower fat to at least alternate with.
Yes HDM Darwin’s did tell me that the fat levels were lower after we talked about my dogs Pancreatits issue. I am going to check out Steve Browns supplement and decide where to go from there.
Shelties Mom I give Mercola digestive enzymes at every meal and also probiotics and spirugreen superfood once a day. We started the Spirugreen 2 weeks ago and the Enzymes and probiotics about 3 months ago. I need a balance and possibly thinking of cooking the girls meat and adding in veggies but I know I need balance so I am out to search for that also. I have a product I ordered specifically for mixing with cooked or Raw mixture by Dr Jones and it is called Ultimate Canine Formula.
Thank you all. So far for the last 2 days she has had her Raw Darwin’s turkey meals and seems to be getting better but maybe thats because shes on Metronidazole. I am searching other avenues though.
Please disregard any typos – I’m having to post from my phone as I’m getting the boot from
the forums when I try to use my laptop.
Hi NectarMom –
If Darwin’s telling you the fat levels aren’t what I told you then they’re likely trying to give you the “unconverted” fat levels. To obtain the true fat level it’s necessary to convert the fat to a dry matter basis (same goes for protein) – to get an accurate representation of the nutrient values this is especially crucial for foods with high levels of moisture (raw and canned). Darwin’s general analysis states that the food has 7% fat, but the food is 74% water (this means the fat levels are much higher they’re just diluted by the water). To calculate you first need to determine the percentage of dry matter, we’ll do this by subtracting the wet matter from 100%: 100% – 74% moisture = 26% dry matter (this means that for every 100 g. food you feed 74 g. are water and 26 g. are actual food, this is why the fat levels appear lower than what they actually are on the general analysis). Next, we divide the “as fed” fat level provided on the general anlysis by the percentage of dry matter we just calculated: 7% fat/26% dry matter = 0.26923. We now want to convert this value to a percentage: 0.26923 X 100% = ~27% fat. This is the only accurate way to truly compare fat levels because for example, the fat levels for kibble are practically on a dry matter basis. Kibble is generally only 10% moisture so if the fat level is, say, 15% on an as fed basis the “true” fat level is 17% (doesn’t change much). I hope all that makes sense.
My question is this – did Darwin’s tell you the fat levels I stated were higher that what the actual fat levels after you told them your dog got pancreatitis? They should have a general analysis with all the nutrient values on a dry matter basis and to try and fool you into believing what I told you is not accurate – especially after when you have a dog with pancreatitis – tells me they’re either 1) clueless or 2) trying to be deceptive in an attempt to sell food. I’m not a fan of Darwin’s customer service so neither would surprise me.
I’m going to have to agree with Patty – use a pre-mix and make your own food using extra lean ground turkey. Steve Brown has a great balancer powder that’s specifically designed to balance the fats in poultry (seespotlivelonger.com).
Oh ok wow well that makes it very limited. I would definitely do turkey necks and wings. Another great place to order meat from is blue ridge beef. They have a great selection of meat for great prices
Backs are high fat and she can’t do chicken. But the idea is good, getting something like HK Preference and making food from fresh turkey may be the best way to go.
Nectar mom,
If I were you, I would go to the butcher, get some chicken backs and necks, turkey necks, any muscle meat on sale, and start from there. It is much cheaper than Darwin’s, and you can see exactly what is going into your dogs meals. It’s also a lot easier to tweak.
