[Barbara M]

Hey Sarah. I use the same
Powder. My vet doesn’t believe in supplements and things of that nature. So there is when I’m on my own to do research and make the decisions I feel are best for me and my dog. So cool that your vet is on board! Love that.

[Barbara M]

Hi Michelle. My vet didn’t recommend supplements but I believe in doing my own researcher. Just like our human doctor practice western medicine and will treat you differently than a holistic doctor. So sometimes I do my own thing based on research and a holistic approach.

[Michelle T]

Hello,

These posts were really informational, but I don’t see anyone who mentioned our particular struvite issue. My 5yr old golden mix has started to leak in her sleep, anywhere from small puddle to lake, not great when you let you pup sleep on the bed! She had this problem about a year ago and the vet checked her urine: the ph was high and it was full of crystals but no UTI. A couple of months of the prescription SO food and the problem was alleviated. The vet made no mention of alternative supplements or options. Do you think the cranberry, vit c, or low protein foods might help her? She already drinks a lot of water every day and has access to the yard fairly often but I’ll make a point to take her out even more now that the leaks are back.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Mom,
The more the merrier, I had booked marked this supplement a long time ago & I think, if memory serves me ,asked Shawna about it and she too wasn’t crazy about it. She prefers the STANDARD PROCESS line of supplements & pepper (my older gal ) was on the various kinds for different issues, I stopped them 2yrs ago when i almost lost my angel to aspiration pneumonia, never started them up again.

I was looking at some website about schnauzers (guess it was a breeders site) & it was a must you had the puppies on this supplement or the health guarantee would be voided_i found that to be interesting & then BC mentioned the same thing-so I just thought MAYBE? my puppy Millie should try it??

How do you like your probotic and do you give it every day? I was using Mercola’ s for a long time & just started the Honest Kitchen’s Perfect Form and like it (at least for now) better. I am always looking for a back up.
i like the ingredients in the Vet Classics chew-where do you purchase that as well as your probiotic- amazon??

[jakes mom]

Phillip, as I understand it there are several reasons to do a rotation diet. One is for variety for the dog, flavor-wise. Another reason is to give the dog different ingredients in the food. Every food has different basic ingredients, some have oats, rice, peas, etc. , something to help bind the food to keep a kibble shape. Also different supplements in varying amounts. By rotating the foods the dog gets a variety of all these things, not too much or too little of any one thing. For example, rice is known to contain arsenic (absorbed from the soil it’s grown in). A little is not harmful but if your dog food was always the same thing, like a turkey and brown rice variety, he could potentially build up too much arsenic in his body. By doing a rotation diet, you’d avoid that kind of thing. Another point , if you find several foods that your dog does well on, you can take advantage of sales and save a few dollars now and then.

[Eve D]

I currently feed my 5 month old puppy Blackhawk Puppy as recommended by the breeder. Having researched this site I am thinking about switching to Orijen Puppy. Blackhawk hasn’t been reviewed here so would you be able to give me an idea of the quality of it compared to Orijen. The first three ingredients are Lamb meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Oats, and the full ingredients list is here http://www.blackhawkpetcare.com.au/dog-food/original-lamb-rice-holistic-puppy-formula

I occasionally supplement the Blackhawk kibble with a small amount of Ziwipeak tinned meat for dogs (about an 8th of the can) and even this small addition has our puppy zooming about for a good few hours with excess energy and lots of mouthing – too much protein?

Thanks for your help

[theBCnut]

As long as the veggies you add are colorful, you should be adding the antioxidants, and it sounds like you are feeding a good variety, so no, I don’t think you need to add supplements.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

BC
thanks so so much.
I guess the breeders must get some kind of kick-back (i don’t mean that in a bad sounding way) but this was a mini schnauzer breeder and yes her guarantee was also contingent on giving the Nuvet vitamins, she even gave a special code to get a 45% discount.
Thanks again.
Do you think a puppy that is fed commercial raw, orijen & legacy kibble, cooked meats, poultry & veggies and eventually THK should be on supplements ?
My older gal is on some ,but with this gal at 6 1/2 months should I be giving them so soon?
She grew in the 3 1/2 months that’s she’s been with me and weighs almost 15 lbs-all she wants to do is eat, I hesitate to take the 3rd meal away, but I don’t want her to gain too much weight too quickly.
Thank you always for your input and knowledge

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

I was just wondering if anyone has used a supplement called “NUVET” it was recommended on a mini schnauzer website.
Seems like it has many ingredients I am not too sure about especially for a puppy?
Any thoughts, comments, suggestions on this supplement or supplements in general for puppies.

Thanks to all

[Jamie H]

Greetings giant breed owners,

My current Dane is 10.5 years old and looks and acts like he’ll be around for a few more. He’s happy and and alert and active for his age. My buddy eats “Paleo” right along with me. Mostly Protein, (often red Pacific wild salmon–we live in Alaska) mixed with quality rice or root vegetables drizzled in olive oil and baked, carrots and celery (his fav) for snacks. He was boarded for a while when I couldn’t keep him and his caregiver gave him about 1/4 of fish oil in his dry food and and plenty of rawhide to keep him busy. When I got him back he was panting a lot and I assumed a heaet condition. X-ray showed a slightly enlarged heart. I did some research and discovered dry food is lacking in Taurine, L-Carnitine and Acytel L-Carnitine, among other critical amino acids and nutritional components. I started supplementing with the three amino acids, and adding squirts of liquid B-complex. His panting decreased and his eyes became focused and alert and his energy level increased. I abandoned my conventions on the focus of food “brands” and the idea of consistency. How boring. What do animals in the wild eat for dinner? Who cares? Its what ever gets them to the next meal! Variety and fluctuation is normal in the wild, and in fact stimulating for an animal. I mix table scraps with dry food. Dinner always taste different, what a pleasure for an animal whose sense of is also a form of communication! some days he doesnt get the dry food at all. Just after I started the supplemts I decided to feed him raw. I bought grass fed buffalo and he got 1/4 to 1/3 pound, give or take, twice a day. I’d recomend not using any grain fed meat for the reason it is sometimes 10x higher in the inflammatory Omega-6’s which is why we humans should avoid grain fed beef like the plague as well. Grass fed free range livestock has the balance of O-6’s to O-3’s that our paleo brethren grew up on and adapted to. But the most IMPORTANT thing one can do is treat your large breed friends as if they were your own grade school aged children. Get outside with them. Play with them outside like your own child. They DO have vocabulary you know. Just because they don’t show it in reciprocal speech doesnt mean they wouldn’t love to hear you talk to them about your activities. Label things when you are on walks. My buddy loves clover. When I get ready to drive him to a nearby trail i always ask if he wants to go smell “clover” or do you want to drink some water from the “stream”, excitement and anticipation dripping from my words. I don’t always know his choice but I always to to keep things varied. Satiate your large dogs with human interaction and variety. You’ll get more out of your companions than any top brand food can make a difference.

[Dori]

Has anyone else read this article on Susan Thixton’s Truth About Pet Foods site regarding the dangers of copper sulfate in dog food and how it relates to your dogs liver. I would assume it matter how much is actually in the food (would vary from batch to batch) and , of course, if you are solely feeding that food. Very interesting. Thought everyone should be made aware. Any thoughts?

A Veterinarian Takes a Stand Against a Common Pet Food Supplement

[Dori]

Cheryl,
Don’t let the fact that Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw is sold at those large stores deter you from using this food. It has a very good reputation and I feel comfortable feeding it to my girls. Though I don’t shop at large box type pet stores, at least three of the local “boutique type” dog food stores that I shop at carry the food.

As for Fresh Fetch, it’s been on Susan’s list for a while. I did research them at one time and their shipping prices were astronomical. Shipping cost more than the food did. If they’ve changed their shipping prices (which I doubt), I’m still not sure why anyone would pay their prices for food and shipping when you can research complete and balanced cooked diets and make it at home for a heck of a lot less. As to Frenchie’s Kitchen, again very expensive for a cooked food. If my memory serves me correctly, the shipping on frozen food was free but the cost of the food was crazy high. Again, one can cook a complete and balanced diet at home from recipes found on this site and others and many great dog books. That is if you want to feed cooked or supplement raw feeding with cooked meals to bring the cost of feeding down. Though I have no inclination to cook complete and balanced meals on a daily basis for my dogs, if that’s what I chose to feed my dogs I would make them myself. I don’t cook on a regular basis for hubby and I anymore so I’m not about to start now.

I’ve renovated probably every home we’ve lived in and so I know what you are going through. It’s exhausting and takes up almost all your waking and sleeping thoughts. Whenever I start a renovation project it is pretty much all I can think about. Glad I can help you in my small way.

OH! Just wanted to say about the Primal Pronto, any place that sells Primal will also sell the Primal Pronto. It’s actually the same food as the Primal formulas just made into small “kibble like” bits so you can scoop out and serve. The real plus of the frozen foods that are the little bits like is that if you’ve forgotten to put the days frozen meals in fridge to defrost, you can just scoop them into their bowls, leave on counter and approx. 15 minutes later they are soft and ready to serve.

[CaneCorso15]

Can someone please help me with how significant the formula change is for my current dog food. The food is Beaverdam Eli’s Choice Dry Dog food. The company is still advertising their 4.5 rating from dogfoodadviser but as a costumer, I feel like I was shafted when the unannounced changes took place.

OLD Formula:
Beef meal, Sweet potato, Chicken meal, peas, Chicken fat,pork meal, Alfalfa meal, Dried Egg product, Flax seed, Potassium Chloride, Dried Kelp, natural chicken flavor, Alfalfa nutrient concentrate, Montmorillonite, salt, vegetable&fruit pomace, pumpkin seed, blueberries, apple, spinach, and a long list of other ingredients.
New Formula:
Chicken Meal, Peas-Ground, Chicken Fat, Pea Starch, Pork Meal, Lentils, Pea Protien, Montmorillonite Clay, Sweet Potato, Alfalfa, Flax, Egg, salt, zucchini, carrot, papaya, blueberry, choline, vitamin a supplement, niacin supplement, D-calcium pantothenate, thiamon monoitrate, biotin, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folive acid, minerals, and a long list of other ingredients.

Thanks for your help.

• This topic was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by CaneCorso15. Reason: typos

[theBCnut]

Sometimes, I make my own wet food by putting heart, liver, and kidney in the crockpot and then putting it through the blender.

Consider feeding raw chicken or turkey necks for a joint supplement. They have tons of cartilage in them.

[Andi G]

I too am having a hard time deciding on what foods to try next for my giant dog (a mastiff/lab mix) who also happens to be picky eater. It’s so not fair, the neighbor’s dog comes over from time to time and eats up my dog’s rejected food like it’s the best thing ever (HAHA). Affording quality dog food in such large quantities is definitely a challenge that I didn’t think would be quite so challenging when we first got him. 🙂
I’d love to buy him the best of the best no matter the cost, but that’s not possible 🙁
I’ve been giving him Cosequin DS (double-strength) Plus tablets that I find on Amazon for $19 for 60 tablets or $35 for 132 tablets. I give him 2 a day in his food. It seems to make a difference in his stiffness. I ran out of them for a few weeks and couldn’t afford to get more and I can tell he is moving slower and looking like an old man trying to get up from laying down. He’s 6 yrs old.
I used to feed him Purina Pro Plan dry food until the day I became informed on DFA and so now I’m trying to find something I can afford and still be in the 4 or 5 star range. I’ve been giving him Authority Grain-Free dry food and canned food for a few months. He likes the canned food okay but he will leave the dry food in his bowl all day and then give up and eat it eventually when he finds out I’m not giving him anything else. I want so bad to give him food that he enjoys and looks forward to eating but switching around foods is stressful (on him and me) and expensive 🙁
I gave him Blue Buffalo Life Protection Chicken and Brown Rice dry food this past month. He seems to like that a little bit better but still not “loving” it. I’m looking around to try different canned foods to supplement but gosh, they are expensive! Authority is often on sale for $1 a can. Everything else is close to $2 a can or more.
Just now I was checking out Whole Earth Farms canned food on Chewy.com. They are rated 5 stars on DFA and are $1.69 per can on chewy. They look tasty but I’m sure that’s just good marketing! ha I might try it though. If he won’t eat it, it looks good enough that I could make a meal out of it. HAHA just kidding

[k9education]

My issue with Vitamin E supplements is that virtually all of them are derived from soy, which some studies have implicated in bloat. While there are opposing studies that found no correlation between the two, I tend to be overly cautious considering I have a family of GSDs – a breed that is already prone to bloat. Dr. Mercola’s Vitamin E supplement is (or at least claims to be) soy-free, but the cost is ridiculous. It’s about $25 for 30 capsules, which seems expensive even compared to what we pay for Instinct LID kibble.

[l h]

a lot of the enzyme formulas have additives, flavorings something real simple as a binder could have your dog reacting or a protein source if stronger as BCnut said. If she is not chewing or having bowel issues with NO enzymes then why would you wish to give her them?

If you are home cooking adding the proper calcium, keeping it low gluten/grain then fish oil, and E, and a good probiotic may be all she needs.

My heart boy who passed had lots of issues was a sensitive pup to TONS… couldn’t do kibble either. If you would like to add something why not a good green supplement, again, you want to start 1/4 dose recommended as your baby is sensitive but would be a good thing for coat, allergy digestion. Again, you want to fine tooth comb check the bottles so many have added allergens, soy, alfalfa for some, wheat, etc. I can link you a couple really pure forms if interested. Again though sounds like the diet is good, and if they are doing well, perhaps don’t need anymore.

[theBCnut]

Go to the Diet and Health Issues forum and read the first few pages in the Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition thread for info on why you should be very careful with LBP nutrition. But you really don’t have to stick with large breed food once they are adults, though you might want to make sure you give joint supplements.

[Kristy C]

I have an 8 year 3 month old mix rescue dog (Pekingese, Poodle, Pomeranian, and they believe there is also another small breed but long body mixed) approx. 12lbs. She has never been a jumper because of her very short legs, and I use to describe her running and playing as a cat/dog. She would leap and pounce across the yard unlike most dogs that run. She’d leap off of her back legs, land on her front and so on and so forth. She suddenly stopped walking, running, playing, etc. She now scoots her back end and curls it to the side so her feet are facing up and shes dragging her very lower back. The only time she will get up and hobble is to potty and its only a few feet at a time. My vet recommended buying the fish oil capsules and mixing 2 a day with some wet dog food as well as half of a DOSEQUIN DS Joint Health Supplement, Maximum Strength Plus MSM daily. This worked AMAZING for the first 2 weeks, she was walking and moving around 75% more than she was. However she is a female and she became disgusted with the taste of popping the fish oil liquid pills and mixing it with her food, so she has quit eating the food and after 5 days of her only eating tablespoon or two of it she is back to barely moving. What is a good food/ supplements that I can give her (that don’t make her skin smell like fish oil and that she will EAT!)?!?!?! PLEASE! I will do the work if its having to make her food, but I will not pay $127 for a SMALL (32lb) bag of food! I AM SINCERELY THANKFUL FOR ANY AND ALLLLLL RECOMMENDATIONS. She still has her sight and full mind and is loving and wants to be playful, I’m just trying to get her body to agree with her mind and spirit!!

[Dori]

Okay, with Primal if the word Formula is in the title that means it is a complete meal. If it says raw mix or raw grind, it’s meant for supplemental feeding where you can tailor your dogs meals with your own supplements.

Vital Essential Raw’s lowest fats, I believe, are their rabbit and fish. Their fish are available in their raw patties.

[theBCnut]

If it is a supplement that gives loading dose info, you can certainly double it safely, probably almost all, if not all, joint supplements can be doubled. Some dogs do get upset stomach from getting that high a dose long term, but not many. If Lily does, then you can start backing off to see what her comfort level is, like a double dose every other day and normal dose in between.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Thanks to both of you! The vet checked Lily back in September and couldn’t detect even a stage 1 lux. patella, but that’s what she thought it was based on the symptoms. I think that was before we knew that exercise helped. I should update the vet soon, I haven’t since she came off the Medacam. I also want to ask the vet about doubling Lily’s glucosamine/MSM supplement. It is over the counter but I want to check first since it is an off-label use.

[Dori]

Her symptoms and the fact that she does better after being up and moving around would lead me to believe that it is an arthritic condition and, not a luxating patella. Having toy breeds for so many years I know the symptoms of luxating patellas. They do not do better after walking and moving around. That’s more symptomatic of arthritis. With that said, I would agree with BC. I’d like to know for sure. But, again with that said, if she has a bad enough luxating patella that needs surgery for correction you would know that. There is no confusing it with arthritis. Yes, I’d like to know if it’s arthritis because if it is, you can give supplements and possible different types of meds or herbals if you think she’s in pain to give her some relief. Pain meds don’t help with severe luxating patellas. With a luxating patella it’s similar to being double jointed where your limb snaps out at a joint. If it’s not severe enough you can snap it back in to place yourself, if you and your orthopedic can’t then you need surgery. With a luxating patella the “knee” will snap out of position. Mild cases it will just snap back into place, mild to medium you or your vet (mostly you because it happens continually) will snap it back in place. Severe means that neither the knee, your dog or you can snap it back in place. That needs surgery. Katie had surgery for a level 4 luxating patella before she was a year old. (have I mentioned often enough on all posts that she was the runt of the litter????) Luxating Patella and arthritis are not the same thing. To know how to treat or at least help either you have to know what it is.

[theBCnut]

For myself, I would want to know if it was arthritis or other, so I would know going forward if I need to supplement for arthritis or not and what types of exercise to engage in or avoid.

[aimee]

Hi Akari,
The concern I’d have with this product is that the instructions are very vague. I couldn’t find it defined anywhere what “meat” is. There is a big difference between a lean meat and a fatty cut. Additionally, I see no mention in regards to fat supplements that would be needed to meet linoleic requirements.

I “made” 2 meals one using 3% fat ground beef and one using 30% fat ground beef. I calculated out the Ca, Phos, Zn, Vit D,Vit E, and polyunsaturated acids and compared them to AAFCO. The meal made with 3% fat beef was excessive for calcium, deficient for Phos for growth profile, excessive in Zn, excessive in Vit D and excessive in Vit E. The diet was deficient in linoleic acid.

Of the six nutrients I checked the meal made with 30% fat ground beef was deficient in phos, and linoleic acid.

To use this supplement I think you’d need to get a full nutrient analysis for the supplement, then use a source like the USDA nutrient database to get nutritional information on the meat choice you make, then calculate out all the nutrient levels and compare to AAFCO and/or NRC tables and then add supplements as needed and balance the diet.

For myself that would be way too much work to do.

What I like about Balance it is that all this work is done for you and it tells you exactly what meat, what fat supplements and gives you a full nutrient analysis for the diet you create.

Any reason why Balance it wouldn’t work for you?

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori,
Your such a great wealth of knowledge, my little & i mean little experience with foods rotation is basically kibble with a lightly cooked topper of different proteins. I never fed canned.
i am sorry i am picking your brain so much, i really don’t know how to go about all this and then add in my fear well you can guess-
I used to feed Pepper a sardine every day until she couldn’t handle them, then I gave her fish oil-i would puncture a pill, she got beta glucan for her immune system coq10 for her heart 3x a week a Vit C, folic acid also-all human supplements just scaled down to her wt.
now with Millie I don’t want to overload her at this point because she is a puppy, i had planned to introduce the sardines a few times a week soon I think she needs the omega 3.
You know even though millie is eating a high quality kibble Orijen, Horizon legacy, I am starting to think she needs to get away from all kibble.
I have noticed,( funny that you mentioned this )Pepper’s stool has no smell since she has been eating THK, yet Millie’s does & I can only attribute it to the kibble.
I give Millie both the Orijen & Legacy mixed and she is ok with that.
I know she is ok with the orijen freeze dried (that’s what she gets for lunch alone)
I guess I made the mistake of giving her the HK with her kibble & chicken at nite.
I should have introduced THK alone with her protein as a topper.
Dori I will get this, i won’t be bothering you for ever, I am a Leo ,and we are perfectionists (that’s why I suffer from migraines) so i have to get this correct-poor Millie to have me for a mom 🙁
I did create a new topic on Puppy’s and supplements-i just haven’t had a puppy in ages & according to Millie’s breeder she needs nothing ( i don’t agree) but don’t want to go overboard.
I realize you don’t feed kibble but i saw a post where tripe is now made into kibble-petkind.com, I wanted your opinion, I have read here a lot of posters feed canned tripe-that it is good for them, I see that more of the large breed posters feed it, I just didn’t know if breeds like schnauzers would benefit. After all Pepper & Millie are not what you would call “working dogs’ Pep is in retirement & Millie is unemployed

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Good Morning,
Any opinions & input on supplements? Fish oil or a human grade all around supplement for a puppy? Is it something that can hurt or help. Her diet is good.I have read some many differing views on this, just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this.
Thank you as always

[Howard C]

I have seen bottles of supplements in the pet food shops, and online, that profess to alter the PH of a dog’s urine so that it does not burn out your lawn. Does anyone know if these products actually work and are they safe to administer to your pet? I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has tried these products or researched them for safety.

[Dog_Obsessed]

I feel stupid at this moment, what’s a super supergreen? Is that a supplement or just a kind of green?

[theBCnut]

No, Perfect Form doesn’t have a supergreen supplement in it.

[Hater and Molly’s Mom]

BC Do you give them that supplement everyday?

[Dog_Obsessed]

Thanks BC! Does Perfect Form count as a green supplement?

If I do decide to bag Fromm completely, which it sounds like I might have to do, do you think Chewy will give me a refund? This won’t impact my decision, I’m just wondering. It was only $12.99 anyway so I could just take a loss.

[theBCnut]

When mine start grass eating, I give a seaweed, spirulina, alfalfa, or some other supergreen supplement. Since I started giving supergreens all the time, nobody has gone back to grass eating. Gideon used to graze like a cow.

If she is trying to eat non food items, it could be a zinc deficiency.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. The only one of Primal’s actual raw foods that has a heavy fat to protein ratio is the beef but I believe that is true of all raw foods. I feed rotation to my three dogs so none of that bothers me and as I have said so often a every single food that you feed your dogs does not have to be complete and balanced. Balanced and complete has to be met over the long haul. If you are feeding a meal that is not complete and balanced in a rotational feeding plan, you don’t have to worry so long as the other meals, or at least most other foods in rotation, are complete and balanced. As you do your due diligence and research into feeding raw, whether it is commercial raw or home made raw, not every single meal has to be complete and balanced.

The ingredient in Pro Den Plaque Off for animals is dried seaweed meal, that it. Why or how it works I don’t really know. I’ve used it for quite a while in addition to brushing my dogs teeth daily. It seems to help. How much? I can’t really say but as it is not an ingredient that any of my dogs are sensitive or intolerant of I continue to use it daily in their morning meals. When I add or offer any new ingredient, supplement or food to my dogs I always do it in their a.m. meal. I don’t give anything new in their dinner meal. I don’t want to deal with any issues or surprises in the middle of the night.

[crazy4cats]

In addition to what Patty mentioned, I think if the supplement actually contained what the label says it does, it would be good to use almost like a topper for some of us. I tend to buy budget friendly kibble without any extras in it. Like right now, finishing up a bag of Eagle Pak. It could pump up the protein, add some goodies, enzymes and probiotics. But since the company has some possible issues, maybe not such a good additive after all.

[crazy4cats]

BCNut and Aimee-
Thanks again. That’s another good point! Will probably not buy again and try to find the supplements elsewhere.

Agt-
I explained exactly why I bought it.

[mike s]

We are fostering a bear-hound dog that has a tumor on the outside of his scrotum that bleeds a lot. The vet wants to castrate and do an ablation but his red blood cell level is too low to undergo surgery. We are feeding him high iron foods such as beef livers. Does anyone know of a superior dry dog food high in iron or a supplement that we could give him? Thanks. Mike

[mike s]

We are fostering a bear-hound dog that has a tumor on the outside of his scrotum that bleeds a lot. The vet wants to castrate and do an ablation but his red blood cell level is too low to undergo surgery. We are feeding him high iron foods such as beef livers. Does anyone know of a superior dry dog food high in iron or a supplement that we could give him.

[aimee]

C4C,
The Fortifier has essentially the same nutrient profile as all the NL diets do. So no need to worry about over supplementing as adding this to your dogs diet is essentially the same as if you mixed in a few kibbles from one of their foods into what you are currently using.

[Kristin C]

Hi Cheryl – I am not familiar with those supplements, but have you ever looked into green tripe? It provides probiotics and digestive enzymes. It’s incredibly stinky! I feed it to my dogs in their food sometimes and give them tripe treats regularly.

[aimee]

Kristen,

I ‘ll give you a bit on my background as it buried in numerous posts I’ve posted over the years. I have a strong background in science, hundreds of credit hours. I started out as a biology /biochem double major. Didn’t finish the degree… married my prof and became a mom. But as a wife of a prof I now could take classes for free, and I’ve taken a lot of classes! As part of my education I have taken a class which covered feed formulation for large animal, many many hours evaluating diets primarily for cattle and hog production as problem based class work. It was all very “mathey” and all hand calculations so I have a basic understanding of how to do nutritional calculations it isn’t hard to do … just time consuming.

Because of my background when I evaluate a company or product I look at the nutritional numbers posts and see if they “add up”.

The reason I said so far only balance it makes sense to me is because of the precision of the feed recommendations. I think the amount of supplement should vary depending on ingredient use. Use as much as needed and no more. Keeps costs down. Also specific vegetable fat recommendations are given which vary depending on meat source to meet linoleic needs as they should.

When I looked at the KBPF supplement I see that the nutritional information posted doesn’t meet AAFCO. I found it odd that though they post a decent amount of information there is nothing about linoleic acid. I would not be at all surprised to find that the diets as made are deficient. The company doesn’t have recommendation for vegetable oils and I doubt that there is enough dried egg in the product to meet needs. There is no break down of the nutrient profile of the supplement.

See Spot Live longer does a little better job… but vague instructions like add up to 20% whole food by volume… really turn me off. Nutritionists never balance by volume way too much variation. Huge difference to a nutrient profile/calories if you add 20% liver by volume vs 20 % green beans vs 20% chickpeas. It is all very odd.

The “synthetics” in balance it don’t bother me, perhaps because of my nutritional background. The NRC tables are based on highly bioavailable “synthetics” and the user of such tables is cautioned of a need to convert if using natural sources whose bioavailability may be poor. Even SSLL acknowledges the need for synthetics. I have to wonder if the dried spinach in SSLL isn’t somewhat of a filler window dressing. People like to see natural ingredients so marketers will oblige them.

Cheryl,

It doesn’t surprise me that all the recipes from balance it come up with deficiencies unless supplement is added as the recipes are based on just a few ingredients. It isn’t a “ploy” to get you to buy their supplement. Recipes are free when using their supplement but you can purchase recipes that use common supplements to balance them.

Is balance it perfect? I think it is good at what it is, but may not meet all peoples needs.
I’ve never used the supplements myself as majority of calories my dogs eat are from commercial foods.

[Cait Y]

Ok so I have lurked here for a little over a year, and recently started making my own raw cat food via Lisa A. Pierson, DVM because one of my boys almost died after getting into the Dry food AGAIN and his whole GI system blocked up because he cannot handle the lack of fluids in dry food. He is such a picky eater that I had put off the raw diet dreading that he would turn his nose up at it like he did the other high quality raw/semi cooked food I tried buying him. He LOVED the home made food, he even batted off his BFF to eat his food too!
HoundDogMom, other raw feeders please bear with me I know that the whole shebang I know as of now it is 6 pages long. I am trying to paint the whole picture with the dogs, their special needs and what is causing me confusion with the Raw feeding books I have read. There is so much going on right now in my personal life that I am having a very hard time understanding this and if anyone could help point me in the right direction or even a book or website or from experience I would be so very very grateful.
The biggest reservation I have about feeding Raw to the dogs (who LOVED the scoop of homemade cat food I gave them as a test) are the bones and sadly the limited ingredients I can use for my Special Needs Hound.
I have a 14 yr old Walker hound (Forest) who has like no teeth left and was just diagnosed with cushing’s disease but has some pretty abnormal liver tests because of the damage that was done while he went undiagnosed. His liver is so enlarged it displaces his stomach sideways and upwards which makes EASILY digestible food a must. He cannot have food high in phosphorus, copper or ammonia which means little to no red meat and lots of poultry, eggs and pork. He also has problems with chronic Constipation so I would have to be VERY careful about the amount of bone I add to his diet but I also want enough in there to give him the nutrients he needs. Since he is older he also burns a LOT of calories, He is on Vital Fresh pet Turkey or Chicken and gets 1.5 lbs a day. I don’t know what is causing him to burn so many calories except for old age or maybe his body is trying to repair itself – all he does is lounge in the lawn and do his hound dance for food – people or animal whichever he can mac on at the moment lol
My 3 yr old yellow lab (Nova) is also a high calorie burner but she is super active, we do scent tracking, retrieving, and lots of walking/running on the grass. She will go until she drops which I have never seen before, so now I watch her very closely for signs she is over heated. She eats up to 2 lbs of the above dog food a day but is still losing weight on occasion when her activity jumps up again. She has always had double the amount of Eosinophils in her blood that she should at a “normal” rate. She has been checked for parasites so the best I can come up with is that she might have GI issues going on intermittently – she doesn’t transition food gracefully and really doesn’t tolerate even high quality kibble (after research it’s not such a mystery anymore) which is in part what turned me onto Freshpets Vital.
To top it all off I have a Four month old female lab puppy (Ellie) that is still growing. I have her on 2 lbs of Freshpets vital but I am worried that she is not getting something in her diet as well. She has three white lines running across her nails – each nail on every paw. In my experience when the horses have white lines or even indents it means either they were very very sick or have a mineral/vitamin deficiency of some sort. I know when Ellie came to us she had a severe infection of hook and round worms. Her infection was so severe at 8 weeks old that the vet said she would have died untreated – thank you OCD and taking her to the Vet the same day she was brought home lol. They were resistant to the normal worming meds and for 2 months we battled with getting them under control and gone. If Dogs are like horses that would cause the lines because of how sick she was during this (Great going Lemon law Florida) yet I also worry because I know parasites in small animals or even large can cause a huge system imbalance with nutrients which hinders growth.
OK Limited ingredients – because of Forest I have to stick to Chicken, Turkey, and Eggs as a main protein source due to his liver problems and because Rabbit in completely unviable to me unless I want to raise them myself. I have no local butcher – the closest one is three hours away so Chicken and Turkey liver will have to do for organ meat – sometimes I can get chicken hearts once in a blue moon. For Fats I have to choose VERY easily digestible fats from an animal protein because with Forests Liver problems his biliary system can be overloaded very easily and that would be disastrous. Maybe I can add some duck occasionally to his diet?

Copper Issues:
If ammonia restriction is required, feed less red meats and organs since they produce the most ammonia. You may not want to eliminate them entirely though, as they have important nutrients that help with liver function.
Instead, cut back. Feed more poultry, fish, eggs, and pork. If feeding red meat, even in small quantities, buy the absolute best quality you can afford. Preferably grass fed, antibiotic, and hormone free.

Meats generally low in copper are:
• Beef (muscle meat, not organs)
• Eggs
• Turkey (white meat)
• Chicken (white meat)
• Rabbit
• Fish
Meats generally high in copper are:
• Lamb
• Pork
• Pheasant or Quail
• Duck
• Goose
• Salmon
• Organ Meats
When feeding organs for copper issues, some animal livers contain more copper than others. Beef liver is higher in copper than chicken or pork livers. Regardless, the zinc and b vitamins in liver help to reduce the risk of copper toxicity. Though if your dog has an issue with copper, opt for chicken or pork liver. (http://primalpooch.com/raw-feeding-guidelines-dogs-liver-disease/)

I have read Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet and Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health of Dogs and Cats. I have some major issues with either of the books, UtCaD is so absolute – if you feed this protein then you need this oil. First of all Canola Oil? Corn Oil? Soybean Oil? Walnut oil? Flax and hemp seed oil? I own horses and I would NEVER give them Corn oil with the GMO crap going around I don’t trust Corn or Canola at all. If I am not comfortable feeding to my strict Herbivores I am definitely not OK feeding it to the other animals. By the way the 2,000 lbs animals have had major GI upset from Canola, Corn, Soybean and Flax seed oil. I’ve given it to them in small amounts – 3 tablespoons a day and I have seen a massive systemic effect that made me take them off of it immediately. It was supposed to give them the right ratio of Omega’s 3 and 6 plus help my older guys move and keep weight on since it was winter. The recommended Ratio of 6 to 3 fats are 10:1 to 5:1 for dogs – I have read that small fish or Krill are the best to supplement dogs with because of the low contamination rate and it should not carry Salmon Sickness. Soybean oil is also something I would never give my dogs or humans or anything because of the way it can mimic hormones and interrupt the function of the Thyroid. Also Kelp is recommended a lot, but there are so many negatives that came out during the feeding kelp to horse’s fad that I will not touch the stuff. If it can affect the horses with the amount of iodine to the point horses became toxic I don’t trust the manufactures. It was not that kelp was being fed in large amounts there was absolutely no regulation on what type they harvested or what it contained. Missing link for dogs is a product I am familiar with and they do make it for dogs with trace minerals but it is flax based. Won’t this completely mess up the balancing? Does anyone here feed this instead of kelp?
The Missing Link Ultimate Skin & Coat:
Active Ingredients (per tbsp)
Flaxseed Dried Kelp
Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Vegetarian) Zinc Monomethionine
Freeze Dried Beef Liver Lecithin
Blackstrap Molasses Chromium Yeast
Rice Bran Selenium Yeast
Primary Dried Yeast Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6)
Sunflower Seed Niacin (Vitamin B3)
Dehydrated Alfalfa Garlic Powder
Dried Carrot Yucca Schidigera Extract
Shark Cartilage Powder* Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
Freeze Dried Fish Protein Powder Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
Freeze Dried Oyster Powder Folic Acid
Barley Grass Leaves Powder Cobalamin (Vitamin B12)
Guaranteed Analysis Amount
Crude Protein (not less than) 18%
Crude Fat (not less than) 28%
Crude Fiber (not more than) 15%
Moisture (not more than) 10%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 450 mg
**Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 1000 mg
**Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Cat/Dog food nutrient profiles.

Also if everything is so precise that does not leave room for error such as what if the chickens were raised on Florida soil which is heavy in limestone and deficient in other areas – rather than let’s say somewhere in the bread bowl what about if they were fed a corn based feed and another batch was fed free range? If the meat analysis is different it throws everything off and we all know that meat from south Fl is very different than meat from MI or IN – same principle goes with growing vegetables even organic. How much of a God Factor is there for the abundance of some micronutrients and lack of others? UTCAD also has an abundance of some nutrients way over the NRC guidelines – are dogs different in the fact that they can rid themselves of excess things very easily? I know in humans and horses Vit E and Selenium can be deadly because it builds up in fat and the body doesn’t flush it out like the water-soluble vitamins?
Dr. Pitcairn’s New Complete Guide to Health has a lot of oat meal, rice, beans?! Half and Half milk, whole milk, whole wheat bread corn? That sounds not so great for dogs and especially not for cats like it says it can be. What about kidney beans? With feeding my dogs I have learned they do OK on rice occasionally when they have an upset GI but if they are on a diet with rice too long they get backed up. Also the beans – the dogs seem to have issues with digesting them like people sometimes do – why are there so many carbohydrates? Why cannot I do sprouted microgreens or carrots or even baked potatoes because I know the dogs tolerate those vegetables very well. Also Brewer’s Yeast? Isn’t yeast as a whole bad? It’s in everything and I know Nova already is prone to yeast infections in her ears and when she gets a UTI – Also can Brewer’s yeast cause or attribute to bloat? Milk – isn’t milk products bad if they are in large amounts such as 2 cups milk plus 2 cups rolled oats and 2 eggs and calcium powder? Everything to me seems so skewed.
Also RMB are out of the question – Forest cannot eat them and Nova and Ellie are gulpers – they came from a large litter and it would be just my luck to end up in emergency surgery with one of them. I have a grinder to which I can grind the bone up with the meat and I know the purpose of the bone was for dental health but if I make Meat Jerky and other goodies can I replicate that without worrying about emergency surgery or broken teeth?
Since I own a grinder already for cat food why cannot I grind bones to supplement their food with? So far in my research the basic recipe and consensus I have come across is as follows:
16% Organ meat
10% – 25% Bone
The rest of the food would be muscle meat and muscle meat
Meat is very high in phos and the bone is high in Cal which means the Cal to Phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.5:1 although 1:1 to 2.5:1 is ok as well. I just need to make sure the dogs consume more Cal than Phos but the question is do I need to add bone meal or can I grind my own bones to supplement?
Here is what the Article analysis the bone content to be in prey animals:
Bone Content In Raw Foods
When sourcing bones for your dog’s diet, it’s a good idea to know the approximate amount of bone in commonly sourced foods. Here is a quick guide to help you keep your dog’s bone content in the right range; between 10% and 25%.
Chicken Whole chicken (not including the head and feet): 25% bone/Leg quarter: 30%/Split breast: 20%/Thigh: 15%/Drumstick: 30%/Wing: 45%/Neck: 36%/Back: 45%/Turkey/Whole turkey: 21%/Thigh: 21%/Drumstick: 20%/Wing: 37%/Neck: 42%/Back: 41%
Pork Feet: 30%/Tails: 30%/Ribs: 30%
Beef Ribs: 52%
Rabbit Whole rabbit (fur and all): 10% Whole (dressed): 25-30%

From this can I remove the proper amount of bones or add more bones in to balance or would you suggest a bone meal powder? Also I have yet to factor in the percentage of vegetable/fruit/microgreens in the recipe – I am just so lost so if HoundDogMom could help or someone else could chime in I would be so grateful. I am trying very hard to learn as much as I can but between the animals and two sick family members and special needs animals by the time I have a moment to sit down I am out like a light for the night or my brain is so frazzled everything looks like it was written in French. Am I over thinking this? I just don’t want to screw Ellie up – she has already had such a bad start with the worm infection – and Forest needs nutrients to rebuild his liver correctly and I wanted to see if this change in diet would help Nova’s Eosinophils come to a normal level. Also has anyone ever seen white lines on every toenail that grows parallel with the skin? Any help would be so appreciated there is just not a lot of room for error with Forest right now with his liver Alt levels 4 times what they are supposed to be. They cannot stay on the Freshpet much longer because to feed the dogs its 19 dollars a day and that’s not a very good long term solution.
Thanks so much everyone~!~ I Hope everyone had a great New Year and wonderful Holiday
`RedMare

[crazy4cats]

Hi-
Has anyone tried the Nature’s Logic Food Supplement? Here are the ingredients:

INGREDIENTS: Spray Dried Chicken Liver, Porcine Plasma, Whey, Flaxseed, Montmorillonite Clay, Brewer’s Yeast, Dried Egg Product, Egg Shell Meal, Cheese Powder, Kelp, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Almonds, White Fish Meal, Tomato Powder, Chicory Root, Apples, Blueberry, Apricots, Carrots, Pumpkin, Cranberry, Spinach, Broccoli, Parsley, Artichoke, Rosemary, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidium Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Coagulans Fermentation Product, Dried Pineapple Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachtum Fermentation Extract, Mixed Tocopherols.
Direct Fed Microbials*:minimum 100,000,000 CFU per pound (in descending amounts, L. acidophilus, L. casei, B. bifidium, E. faecium, B. coagulans)

I bought some mostly because it has the montmorillonite clay in it that I think helps with my dogs’ digestive issues. But, it also appears to have some other good ingredients along with digestive enzymes and probiotics. It is also high in fiber which seems to help my dogs. But, I’m having second thoughts as I don’t want to over supplement my dogs if I am already feeding a balanced kibble with toppers. Any thoughts?

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Kristen,
I also can’t understand why a website that allows you to design homemade meals would use a synthetic supplement-its counter productive.
I also want to mention no matter what meals I tried to design it was ALWAYS recommended that the diet was not balanced and that I needed t add the BalanceIt, so now I am truly wondering if all the site wants to do is lure one in with the hope of providing the fur-kids homemade meals and zappo selling their products!!!

[Kristin C]

I am going to tag onto what Cheryl said, I don’t mean to offend either. But, Aimee, it’s a little confusing why Balance It is the only dinner mix/supplement that makes sense to you but you’ve never used it. Dogaware.com does not recommend it, it’s an entirely synthetic product. But since I don’t know anyone’s background I am going with it’s just a matter of opinion. I find the dinner mix/supplement category a bit confusing and since there are too many ingredient variables to consider I am guessing they will not be reviewed. Since I don’t eat an entirely balanced meal every day myself and don’t really worry about it I am just going to continue feeding my dogs as much whole food variety that I can and hope the new SSLL product is not too far apart from the old formula, because it works for us.

[aquariangt]

amazon and sportdogfood both have it, and it seems to be the same price. The only 3 bags that are under 30 lbs that I can find are the Yukon, The Joint Supplement one, and the Hi Pro-all in 5 lb bags. No 15 lb that I can find either

[aimee]

Hi kristin,

I’ve never purchased or used balance it supplements. I have made lots of recipes on the site though just to see how it works. It is super duper easy and a lot of fun to play with! Not sure how you got the idea that you had to download or purchase anything or go through a vet. Just scroll over homemade food tab and click on autobalancer EZ. You can pick ingredients from the lists and the program then gives you options that vary in protein and fat content. After the initial options are presented you can customize it by entering your dog’s weight and what protein and fat percentage you’d like the diet to have. The recipes are free to look at, the program tells you how many deficiencies are present if you don’t supplement and you can see how much supplement you need to use /batch. For me that is where the “fun” lies. It is interesting to see how adding particular ingredients changes the profile, the number of deficiencies and the amount of supplement needed to balance the recipe. I’ve found that the amount of supplement can vary significantly depending on the ingredients/fat levels that you choose to use in the diet. That’s why there isn’t a “standard” recommendation in regards to how much supplement to use. the program calculates out the least amount needed based on the base diet. I love that it gives you a full nutrient analysis for the recipe and detailed instructions.

Have not looked at See Spot Live Longer.

[Lisa R]

My 7 year old chocolate lab has had a rising BUN count in his blood. His creatinine level is increasing very slightly, not proportionally in the manner the vet would expect if if we’re kidney disease. Additionally, his BUN continued to go up on RX kidney food and meds. The vet is baffled and doesn’t understand what the issue is.

I think it’s related to his diet in some way. He has always been, as my vet called him, a “fat magnet” since we rescued him 3 years ago. He gained a ton of weight very quickly when he first came to us, despite never being fed table food, etc, and continued to gain on small servings of RX diet food (from not quite 80 lbs to over 100). Currently he is on a very low quantity of weight mgmt IAMS, supplemented with green beans to fill him up. He was losing very little, very slowly and finally showed a big decrease in weight when we eliminated rawhide from his diet (unless it’s kidney disease and it just happens to coincide with the elimination of rawhide).

I think there is some dietary issue and he needs a different kind of food or supplement….maybe there is some intolerance for food we are feeding him and he needs grain free or salmon or freeze dried or something…but I don’t know what to try. The vet is advising against anything high protein in case he does have kidney problems but I’ve reqd every that is not necessarily a factor in kidney isses for dogs. But she doesn’t know what we should try.

Any thoughts?

[Kristin C]

Hey Cheryl – go for it! I make my dog’s food, but as of a few months ago I have added the SSLL supplement because I am paranoid.

I looked up the Just for Dogs website, and it’s probably not something I would personally use. It appears they cook their food, I do raw (with 1-2 x per week kibble + FD). Their “balanced” supplement is for dogs with GI problems under vet care. They also do not ship frozen.

Don’t get too frustrated. Most people on the DFA forums have been through all the questions and doubts too. Just find what works best for you and your dogs. And consider it a process that you can re-evaluate and make better.

[InkedMarie]

I use ground raw. Boone gets about 3.5 oz bony and 1 oz boneless. The bony has meat, bone, tripe & organs. I do have some that has no tripe so I add that. He gets eggs and salmon oil a few times a week. He gets rib bones to gnaw on and I skip the boneless at that meal. Thats it.

Edit: he does get a joint supplement, apple cider vinegar & Bug Off Garlic as well.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by InkedMarie.