[Spy Car]

Is it dangerous to eat dry kibble? It may contain harmful bacteria.

It also may (and almost assuredly does) contain ingredients that have been condemned by USDA inspectors and/or comes from dead, dying, diseased, or downed animals.

The laws allow pet-food companies to put dead dogs into dog food kibble for Cripes sake.

Many people get sick after handling kibble every year. Many dogs have been killed due to foul contaminants in pet “food.”

Dogs are not people. They handle raw food very well.

Please stop the nonsense.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[anonymous]

“It is hilarious that you are tying to suggest human quality food items that have passed USDA inspections are more dangerous than the vile ingredients legally used in dog kibble. LOL”.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/meat-preparation/ground-beef-and-food-safety/ct_index
Excerpt below

Is it dangerous to eat raw or undercooked ground beef?
Yes. Raw and undercooked meat may contain harmful bacteria. USDA recommends not eating or tasting raw or undercooked ground beef. To be sure all bacteria are destroyed, cook meat loaf, meatballs, and hamburgers to a safe minimum internal temperature of 160 °F (71.1 °C). Use a food thermometer to check that they have reached a safe internal temperature.

[Spy Car]

Zombie thread. Never too late to spam a raw feeding subforum with scare tactics and misinformation.

Hilarious when one considers the number of dog’s killed by tainted dog food every year.

Why do the Admins allow such trolling?

Bill

[anonymous]

Yeah, I know that.
Raw meaty bones are even more dangerous. Proceed at your own risk.

Make sure you have the nearest emergency veterinary clinic number posted on your fridg.
I speak from experience.

[Molly M]

@Anonymous….

The “bone treats” to which you’re referring
are not the same thing as raw meaty bones.
Bone treats are processed, packaged foods.

[Spy Car]

Hey Sweet Pea, unfortunately, this forum has a dedicated anti-raw member who uses scare tactics to dissuade people from feeding the obviously best and most healthful diet for dogs.

The link to Skeptic Vet is full of easily debunked nonsense. But it gets posted in every thread as spam.

People get sick from Salmonella as a result of handling kibble all the time. People feeding raw need to follow the same precautions they do when handling raw meat for their families.

Raw feeding is pretty easy to do DIY. Bu following the prey model (80% meat/5% liver/5% other secreting organs/10 soft-edible bone) all a dog’s nutritional needs get met.

The difference in condition between a raw fed dog and a kibble fed dog are dramatic. A PRM diet will help clean up the teeth. You probably still need a dental vet check up as 60% of kibble fed dogs develop periodontal disease as a result of a high carb kibble diet. A kibble diet is hell on teeth.

PMR fed dogs have sparkling white teeth. My 4+ year old Vizsla (raw fed from 8 weeks) has zero tartar or plaque. Typical of PMR dogs.

Carbohydrates (which all kibbles abound in, but Science Diet takes to an extreme) are junk calories. They provide no essential nutrients.

You seem to understand intrinsically what your dog needs. Provide it in the right balance and you will see a transformation take place. In contrast, kibble is junk food.

Go with your intelligence on not marketing and scare tactics.

Best,

Bill

[Susan]

Hi,
Yes Victor is suppose to be good quality food for the price, I live Australia we dont get Victor we only get Canidae, Wellness, Eagle Pack, Holistic Select etc …

About the raw diet YES that would be heaps better diet for Sweet Pea better then any dry or wet dog food, but I’d avoid any raw till Sweet Pea digestive tract is strong & healthy & best to feed human raw meat, no Pet Shop raw meats, I like the Dehydrated raw where you add warm water, my boy does really well on an Australian made organic free range raw.. She might prefer the dehydrated dog food, like “Honest Kitchen”, “Kiwi Kitchen” dehydrated & “Canidae” has a new raw coated kibble, I always buy Patches kibbles when on special when there’s 25% off certain dog foods & when the use by date is about to expire & the dog food is 50-75% off, I go to Pet Barn & check out all their use by dates lol then tell staff this use by date is about the expire also I rotate between a few different brands..
This is why a dog has a short digestive tract so if any raw meat they eat is off it passes thru their stomach to small bowel very quickly so no bacterica can breed & best to feed human grade raw meat, Kibble also has contains Salmonella & we hold it so always wash your hands after touching a dry kibble….
My cat had tartar on his teeth & my vet recommend I give him raw chicken wings cut in 1/2 x 3 times a week & the raw meaty chicken bones cleaned his teeth, cause he was old his vet didn’t want to risk putting him to sleep to clean his teeth, plus it was very expensive over $450 then another $50 per teeth if removed…

Yes very good idea before you see a vet GET Dog insurance, that’s 1 big mistake I made & I’ve spent alot of money on Patch with all his health problems.

[Acroyali]

It’s so great that people point out that raw food contains salmonella…but fail to show how many kibbled foods have been recalled for salmonella, or worse.

[anonymous]

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
(excerpt below)
Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food.
The numerous dietary choices for your pet can be daunting but if you pick an AAFCO approved food made by a manufacturer with a long track record, odds are good that you will find a suitable food for your pet. Most of the large pet food companies employ full time veterinary nutritionists and have very high quality control standards. That is not to say that a small company cannot produce nutritious and high quality food, but you should check out their website if it’s a company that is not familiar to you. Take the time to research, and ask your veterinarian if you have specific questions or concerns.
Please understand that this article is meant to provide basic dietary guidelines for healthy pets. If your pet has specific health issues, then your veterinarian may make specific food recommendations, which may include special prescription diets.

Also: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
Excellent science based articles (nothing is being sold at that site)

[Sweet Pea the Collie Mix]

Surprisingly veggies arent her thing. I think she is more of a carnivore than an omnivore. We are feeding her twice just to get her more hungry since she really doesnt enjoy eating from what I can see, but I will try rationing out her food a bit more! I really think she would blossom on a raw or homemade diet but I am not confident in my nutrition knowledge to do something like that. I researched a good kibble for a long time before choosing Victor, since it was a good price and a good quality. I really wish I could afford the high end dog food like Canidae but my budget doesn’t allow it sadly. But Victor absorbs water well and it is nutritious so Im not too worried.

[pitlove]

Hi David-

CLP is censored because the validity of their testing has not been proven and they refuse to disclose their raw data to consumers who have repeatedly demanded it. Until they choose to be more open and transparent to the consumer, Dr. Mike asks that CLP not be discussed here on DFA.

As for your quest for the best food, there isn’t one. Each dog has needs too individual to that particular dog and its lifestyle to be able to make a blanket statement like “Food A is the best dog food period”. What is the best food for my dogs will not be the same as what is the best food for your dog. You can use websites like this one and CLP to guide your choices on which products to try if you choose, but don’t make the same mistake I did several years ago and get so caught up in ratings that you ignore when your dog is doing poorly on a highly rated food.

[Spy Car]

Sometimes it is a texture thing. Many dogs who are averse to organs will eat them frozen or semi-frozen.

If it is only a “smell” thing (vs a texture thing), I’d advise only giving a light sear to change the nose, but not fully cooking the organ, if possible. It could take a process of more cooked, to progressive less seared, to raw.

Precutting fresh organs into 10% of the daily diet-sized pieces and then individually freezing the pieces can make one’s life easier (assuming the frozen tip works).

Bill

[Tiffany T]

Hi there, in my quest to get one of my dogs to like different organ meats, it seems hopeless.

She is a little GSD mix and she refuses to eat other types of liver and certain organs unless I cook them and hide them in her food. She eats raw beef and calf liver no problem, but discriminates other animals’ livers lol.

We are only on a partial raw diet (TOTW kibble in the AM and raw in the evenings) but my question is, is it healthy for her to just have this one specific organ? Or do I need to look into supplements? Or continue with my cooking and hiding method? lol

[RollTide10]

Thanks to everyone’s input thus far.

I’m interested in keeping Fury on a kibble diet. So for those suggesting Raw dog food, raw freeze dried, etc. Thanks for taking the time but no thanks.

Thanks for the input, Pitlove. I’ve transitioned Fury on 2 different types of food and both with a 10-day transition. Transition to his current food also took about 10 days and while his stool was soft at first, now his stool is the ideal firmness and color. The shelter was giving him chicken flavored food, he did okay with it so I figured he’s alright with chicken. His current food’s got Turkey, Duck, Quail so I think poultry is okay for him.

I’m thinking of either switching him to
Taste of the Wild Prey Angus Beef or Trout flavored next since their nutrition data are very similar to the food he’s on now.

I’m just not sure if I should start him on a rotational diet :\

[Ashish M]

If your dog is 12 months or over and is severely overweight, then you may want to feed them 3 – 2% of their ideal body weight rather than of their current weight. For more information you can visit our website CDK9raw.com.au and learn more about Raw dog food.

[Susan]

Hi
I learnt on here “DFA” to Rotate my dog diet, also Hills say on their Vet Diet formula’s when you feed your dog the same diet year after year your dog can start reacting to certain ingredients causing food sensitivities…
Rotating a dog diet strenghten their immune system, stops food sensitivities also if the food/brand your feeding your dog isn’t balanced properly or is high in contaminates & toxins, then when you rotate your dog diet he isn’t eating the same food 24/7 causing health problems….
You will see a big difference in your dog coat, skin & over all health, my boy has IBD, if I stay on the same dry food for more then 3 months my boy starts reacting, he goes down hill, starts doing his smelly sloppy poos, so around 3 months I start to introduce a new dry food, I look for a new kibble/freeze dried raw that’s “around” the same Kcals per cup, fat% & protein %, the fiber doesn’t seem to matter withPatch as long as it’s NOT higher then 6%… He does get 2 Freeze dried Green Lipped mussels daily & something different for lunch everyday thats not a dry kibble…

Patch will be 10yrs old in November & he still acts like a puppy, running, jumping, playing ball etc people think he’s a young pup… He doesnt suffer with Arthritis, I keep him lean & all muscle, he isnt over weight to put any pressure on his joints, he gets walked twice a day & has a very active life for a dog, I think this also plays a big part in a dogs life…

Have a look at “Canidae Ancestral raw freeze dried coated formula’s..
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-grain-free-pure-ancestral-raw-coated-dry-red-meat-formula-with-lamb-goat-wild-boar/

[Susan]

Hi Cline,
Try & stick with other freeze dried dehydrated dog foods that are similiar to The Honest Kitchen formula’s, there’s a few around, there’s Air Dried formula’s like “Ziwi Peak” but air dried is like jerky & when you add any water nothing happens to the product, then there’s freeze dried raw & all the nutrients are locked in, NO heat is used you add warm water & the food reformulated to its fresh natural self again….

Have a look at “Kiwi Kitchen” Freeze dried
http://www.kiwikitchens.nz/dog-food/freeze-dried-dog-food/
The fish formula has teh lowest fat%

Have a look at “Canidae Pure” formula’s excellent for dogs with digestive problems & skin allergies, Pure Sky, Pure Wild, Pure Land, Pure Elements, Pure Sea..
Canidae have brought out a new Grain Free Raw Freeze Dried formula’s, Raw Coated Dry Red Meat Formula with Lamb, Goat, & Wild Boar..
https://www.canidae.com/dogs/canidae-grain-free-pure-ancestral-raw-coated-dry-red-meat-formula-with-lamb-goat-wild-boar/

If your dog gets dirrahea from the Ancestral formula then take it back to Pet Shop & ask can you try the “Canidae Pure Sky” formula, it’s simple with limited ingredients & it has NO Lentils, NO Chickpeas, https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products/canidae-grain-free-pure-sky-dry-formula.

[Mike Sagman]

Hi Takela E,

We publish only the company reports that have been completed. We do have some raw and incomplete data we’ve collected concerning some of the other companies.

However, because the information is not formatted into a text based (readable) document, this material would make no sense. And worse… it could easily be misinterpreted.

For this reason, we do not make any incomplete information available other than what you find inside the Editor’s Choice members-only areas.

We are considering expanding the company information to make it available to more of the public.

Hope this helps.

[Debbie D]

Raw is critical for allergies/fungus. I used to be vegetarian so i understand (10 yrs but had health problems.) Primal Raw is freeze dried so there is no smell or mess. Just add it to the vegetables you are already feeding. I use the freeze dried cubes.
My dogs won’t eat Primal cubes by itself, they are too spoiled, so I add it to what ever else I am feeding.
Since I switched to raw 10 years ago, our dogs have had no deficiencies or medical issues. Absolutely ZERO! We don’t get fancy, just raw meat and veggies.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Debbie D.

[Debbie D]

To solve this problem and gain enough knowledge (and spend enough $$$$ at vet clinics) it took me 10 years. I am glad to say we have kicked this problem 100%. I am very sad though that my pets had to suffer for 10 years before we found the solution. Several of the answers here are on the mark, however, there are some missing pieces of information. Here are the components of the solution that results in the ear problems clearing up in addition to every other allergy issue a dog may have. You can’t do just one thing, you have to address all aspects of care:
1. Diet
2. Flea control poisons
3. Heartworm and Parasite poisons
4. Vaccinosis
5. Chiropractic
6. Vet type
We solved this problem when we started going to alternative vets and Chiropractic vets. I spent thousands at the veterinary clinic, hundreds at the alternative clinics and next to nothing at the Chiropractic vets. The alternative vets (3 of them) were all indispensable. One used Chinese herbs, another acupuncture and another (the best) used a combination of modalities including cold laser, acupuncture, Chiropractic, nutrition, and herbs. The Chiropractic vets gave the most bang for the buck but it took to a visit to five different ones to settle on our favorites. Yes, hard to believe, but a spinal adjustment can be miraculous in calming down allergies. The older the dog the more likely they need this treatment. Some Chiropractors also have cold laser treatments. Go to AVCA.org to find a pet Chiropractor. Some states require Chiros to be vets (like Texas) and others (Oklahoma) allow human Chiros to treat pets. There are advantages both ways.

So bottom line, we now feed NO commercial food but instead feed raw chicken plus a home cooked chicken and vegetable stew. We freeze it in daily portion size containers. This raw food supplemented diet eliminated all parasites (fleas, ticks, heart worms, intestinal worms, etc.) thereby eliminating our need for poisons. Raw diet also eliminated our need for vaccines (titer testing proved this.) Eliminating vaccines eliminated the need for steroid therapy that the vets kept pushing on our dogs. Eliminating flea control like Nextgard, Trifexis, Comfortis, Frontline, and Advantage was a major step forward. These chemicals/drugs were a major cause of itching in our Pugs and we tried them all. These chemicals also caused sores and weeping irritated skin.
Once our dogs were already having out of control skin issues we had to use shampoos and aloe vera in addition to dietary changes. We switched to duck and fed only (USA) Merrick commercial dog food and this was a major improvement. However, the real change came with the raw. We eventually eliminated the Merrick except for traveling/hiking and emergencies. It took about 3 months to a year of proper feeding to stop the fleas dead in their tracks. We used flea combs and Ark Naturals Neem Shampoo to check for fleas.
In one dog, we had to get a prescription of Apoquel (new drug only at select vets) to stop the itching (instead of dangerous steroids.) This was an emergency measure because itching causes scratching which leads to staph infections in ears and on the skin/belly.
The ear itching and yeast infection eventually led to staph infection also from the dogs scratching their ears. To clear this up we used a combination of products over several months. I will list the products and their purpose.
1. Zymox enzymatic ear solution (green bottle) for yeast/bacteria
2. Olive Oil drops – extra virgin for yeast/bacteria
3. Colloidal Silver (10ppm) dropped in ears for yeast/infection
4. 7-Day feminine antifungal cream (yeast only, outside of ears and bumpy noses/folds)
Zymox was best for yeast. Olive oil was the best for everything including swelling of the ear canal. Colloidal Silver kicked the secondary infections almost overnight.
Moist ears is a side effect of yeast infection, not a cause. Swimmers ear is a result not of the water but of having a dietary systemic yeast infection before your dog ever goes swimming.
Taking our dogs swimming in a creek or lake had no effect on the ears, however, swimming in a chlorinated pool did aggravate the ears and skin.
The feminine yeast cream has been a real life saver. We use the weakest version and only apply it to ear flaps. If you want Miconazole ear drops, you’ll have to go to the vet for that. But honestly, the olive oil is just as good. The problem with prescription drugs is that they usually only treat one bug, unlike the first three items on my list.
I hope someone finds this useful.
Since this is a dog food website, i will give my two cents on dog food brands (never feed dry): Highest quality, readily available brands are Merrick, Nature’s Variety, Primal Freeze Dried Raw, and Orijen. No, I would never feed Blue. I’ve been in the pet business for most of my life and I know secrets about many brands that will make your skin crawl. I will not lookup or recommend any brands other than the ones I listed.
I am chronicling my personal experiences on a blog so feel free to visit as you like. Snortlepuss.com
DogFoodAdvisor.com is one of the best resources a person can have for learning about brands. Please take the ratings seriously and only feed to top rated foods.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Debbie D. Reason: missing info

[Becca]

Idiopathic seizures can be caused by food.
Holistic and homeopathic is the best way to go!
Feeding raw does wonders.

[Celt S]

He’s going to be 10 yrs the end of next month. There’s no “apparent” health issues. He’s fed a variety of foods: kibble (right now: Crave, Instict, science diet oral care, and royal canin), wet (Merricks, Crave, simply nourish, nutro), home cooked (usually whole chicken, carrot/sweet potato, oatmeal stew), and raw (chicken, beef, and pork).

[Susan]

Hi Angel,
What formula’s have you tried? have you tried a dry kibble that is just Lamb meal & Rice?? a kibble with grains she might have been fed a cheaper dry food bought from supermarket or she might have been feed a raw or cooked diet??
My rescue was the same he had to be put on Metronidazole 21days & a vet diet for 9 months to get his gut healthy again…
Have you tried adding a probiotic or kefir to her diet??

Look for a new limited ingredient kibble that is chicken free, there could be 1 or 2 ingredients in the kibble she has been eating that she is sensitive too??…

“Artemis OSO Pure” is simliar to Zignature, my boy doesnt do well on a heavy Legume diet,
It’s best to find a pet shop close by & try pet foods from the Pet Shop so they can be taken back if she gets diarrhea or wont eat it, most pet foods have a palability guarantee money back..

If you live near a Tractor Supply store look at “4Health” formula’s or “4 Health Special Care” Sensitive Stomach formula, the fiber is 3% but it mighten have anything to do with fiber %, it might be an ingredient she is sensitive too….
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/4health-special-care-sensitive-stomach-formula-for-adult-dogs-8-lb-bag?cm_vc=-10008

4Health UnTamed has simliar ingredients to Zignature & cheaper…

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/brand/4health%20Untamed/dog?cm_re=4health-_-Untamed+Page-_-Shop+Dog

Keep a diary & start writing down ingredient list & fiber % etc

[Jeanine H]

He’s on Hills Science KD.
He previously was on regular grain free FreshPet (chicken). I was just thinking that raw might be better. It looks like it’s not. Thank you so much!

[pitlove]

Hi Jeanine-

Lowering protein and phosphorus in the diet has been the staple gold standard treatment for KD patients. Raw diets tend to be high in both, so I can’t say I would recommend going back to his old diet.

Which KD canned diet is he on right now? If he doesn’t like this one, there are two more companies that make a KD specific diet you could try for him. .

[Jeanine H]

I have a 15 year old, 8 lb chihuahua named Joey. He’s basically been pretty healthy most of his life, very few problems. He does have bad teeth now, his last dental was over seven years ago because I’ve been able to keep it under control with brushing, but it now really needs to be done. He had a UTI in January that was found on routine exam, he had minimal to no symptoms. He was put on a course of antibiotics, and supposedly cleared, but I noticed no behavior change at all-he was active, good appetite and urinating and drinking normally. In February, I was a little suspicious, only because he was urinating a slight bit more often, but is 15, and it was barely perceptible difference. That test came back positive, and he had another round of antibiotics. Still no behavior change. Nothing that would tell me that he was any better, but he had no symptoms, so he was just his usual active happy self . Pre dental check of urine a few weeks ago showed UTI (still? Or again, who knows), and he was given a different antibiotic, which really showed results-my happy energetic senior because more active, more playful and running around all over! So then he was planning to be getting a dental this week, but it got postponed Wednesday because his blood values indicated that his kidney function wasn’t great. Creatinine 1.8 , BUN 51, phosphorus 7.7. He was put on KD diet, canned. He hates it, but ate it when I added scrambled egg whites. Also aluminum hydroxide twice daily-he hates that too. Question: prior to this, he was eating FreshPet grain free chicken, small dog bites. He absolutely loved it. I’ve read that raw may be beneficial with KD so would FreshPet raw instincts be a viable option for a food if he won’t eat the KD food?

[MJ E]

we got a foster dog (basset, clumber, cocker mix?) from a rescue that erupts in hundreds of pimples that turn into spots that are like quarter size patches of dried peanut butter that grow into huge weepy raw spots. Thousands of dollars later, no answers. His first allergy tests showed about twenty allergens including foods and environmental. Two years later a second test showed almost completely different results. A bazillion treatments later, nothing has worked to slow it down better than baths. He does not seem very itchy, and the sores do not seems to hurt. It starts at various parts of his body and does not go away until it has traveled all over his body, with the first affected areas healing spontaneously but with horrible dandruff as it goes. After it has covered his entire body, it goes away for a few months, then whammo. We keep him shaved. We have tried three vets, tried everything they recommended to no avail. No one has seen it before. No fleas. He is a happy camper, the horrible condition does not seem to phase him. 15 different foods, booties in the grass, nothing changes it, it is never worse or better. Tried vinegar, probiotics, fish oil, selsun blue. Nothing changes. When he is well he has no skin issues. Rescue tried to put him down so we adopted. Going broke, help.

• This topic was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by MJ E.
• This topic was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by MJ E.

[Patricia A]

Deborah it’s gets tricky feeding small dogs like ours. They’re diet is so limited in the amount they eat that I can afford to feed them what I hope to be the best nutritionally. I’m relieved you said that he’s tolerating the S&C. Started with the S&C rabbit and venison a few weeks ago after using primal .So far so good with stools and no vomiting. I know they are intolerant of too much fat. I found this out when years back I would give them some hamburger over they’re kibble and the next day they had diarrhea. Even with lean steak meat. If I gave them little of broiled steak two days in a row over they’re kibble same thing with diarrhea. With canned beef same problem. I’m now hoping that the Rabbit has less calories and fat and my chubby one will lose. But I’m waiting for this raw feeding to all go south if I keep on feeding because of the fat. Stella also came out with a stew so I will look into that.Maybe less fat and I can alternate. Thank you for posting . I thought I was the only one who was concerned about the fat in these raws.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Deborah G]

Following. I have a 6 pound Shi Tzu who cannot tolerate food with a high fat content. I made the mistake of feeding him the raw brand food Tucker because it was rated very well and locally made in my region. My dog has gerd and after a few days on it he regurgitated some of it and then I’m surmising that he must have inhaled some of it and it caused a seizure like episode. I normally feed him Stella & Chewy raw as well as other brands but he seems to tolerate S&C better than the others. I want to feed him fresh whole food and I believe that raw is the best way to go but I too wish there was a brand with a lower fat content.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, thanks for the comedy routine. I got a good laugh.

I read the NRC report. It says dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates. None!

Zero. Zip. Nada.

Every study ever conducted shows that dogs fed a high-carb diet have substantially less stamina and endurance than dogs eating a high-fat diet.

Anyone with eyes can see the differences in the quality of teeth between dogs fed a PRM-style raw diet and dogs fed a standard kibble diet. The former leaves teeth clean and white vs the tartar and plaque stained teeth of kibble-fed dogs, 60% of whom develop periodontal disease.

Nor can anyone with eyes fail to see the body type differences between PMR raw fed (zero calorie) dogs and those fed a high-carb diet.

De-conditioning dogs via diet–which is what feeding high-carb diets do, as shown in the scientific veterinary evidence does–takes a huge toll on health and promotes obesity.

As to pancreatic enzymes, of course the “enzymes” themselves are not “confused.” LOL. What happens is dogs become conditioned to releasing ratios of enzymes based on their diets. Kibble fed dogs release a lot of amylase.

When such dogs have an unusually high-fat meal and their pancreas releases an amount of amylase that is excessive for that “meal” (instead of the lipase that works to digest fats) that excessive amylase destroys tissue in the pancreas.

Interesting that id cats are recognized as carnivores the same pet food companies that produce cereal-based kibbles for dogs market similar formulas for cats. These companies exist to make profits not to serve pet health.

High-carb diets rob dogs of their vitality. The are no advantages and plenty of downsides to such high-carb diets.

Bill

[Susan]

Hi Heather,
are you looking for a premade raw wet diet, a Freeze Dried raw diet or a dry processed kibble??

There’s
* “Ziwi Peak” air Dried raw Venison
Original Air-Dried Venison Recipe for dogs
Ziwi Peak Moist raw Beef, Venison, Lamb
https://www.ziwipets.com/catalog/ziwi-peak-dog-nutrition/moist-dog-food

* “Stella & Chewy” Frozen Raw or Freeze Dried Raw, Pheasant or Raw Rabbit Patties
https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/freeze-dried-raw-dinners/patties/phenomenal-pheasant

* “Instinct Original”
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/original

* “Instinct” Limited Ingredients Kibble Diet
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/limited-ingredient-diet

* “Instinct Raw”
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/raw

Or go online
“Hare Today Gone Tommorrow”
sell Goat, Duck, Llama, Pork, Pheasant, Quial, Rabbit, Venison, Turkey etc
https://hare-today.com/category/meat_proteins_or_packaging_types

Also if you join a few Canine Raw feeding facebook groups, then post a post asking for meat contacts in your area that sell cheaper cuts of novel raw meats…

[Patricia A]

Thank you again Spy. I feel like crying just thinking about starting over with new food . I have been cutting the kibble little by little . If I continue to feed a little kibble with their food I will research just a switch to a VERY low carb/high protein and average fat since they get enough fat from the raw. Let you know if I start to see any results. She also have a vet appt coming up and will ask about blood work for any thyroid issue.

[Patricia A]

Thank you Spy for replying. Originally they were all eating Fromm grain free with a topper of health extension Vets Choice Chicken. Also toppers when I cooked of boiled chicken, salmon and steak if they were lucky that day. Its was a long winter and walks were very limited. Also when my three year old Chi put her nose up at the Fromm and topper Tia would steal before I had a chance to grab it from her. Hence the weight gain. My 16 year old is still her old food which at her age she’s been doing VERY well with. Of course she gets EXTRA chicken etc when others not looking at this point in her life. I finally gradually switched to the Stella’s kibble but really it’s a VERY small amount of her diet. Also cut down to tiny bit of the steak, salmon etc when we ate that because I think I was over doing the amount. So between the walks, treats cut out and her food being cut down I thought by now she would show a trimmer body type. So now you said Stella kibble is high in carbs. Even though it says low. I think her other food was average carbs so I thought I was doing better with that. Below is the list of foods I’ve been giving so far with the freeze dried. It’s ahttps://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058lways dehydrated with warm water. Thank you for your help. https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/freeze-dried-raw-dinners/patties/venison-blend https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-turkey-sardine-formula#variant=36371519122https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058
Is this kibble recipe lower in carbs? https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/raw-coated-kibble/beef-recipe

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, they did not measure a high-fat ration vs a high-carb ration.

They measured two high carb rations (both of which lack the benefits of a high-protein/high-fat-diet) against each other and found a very marginal difference in weight loss. Differences likely attributable to the drastic differences in fiber in the two meals.

This study doesn’t resolve anything.

The reason that people like myself who’ve read the literature don’t endorse carbohydrates in the diet is due to the demonstrated consequences of high-carb diets negatively impacting aerobic capacity and cutting endurance in dogs, in addition to the obesity, bad skin, bad teeth, and stresses on GI tract and organ health.

There are no advantages to feeding carbs (aside from reducing costs of the feed). Only downsides to health.

I’m not going to take seriously a study that allows domestic dogs to consume as much raw food as they want as satiety test. LOL. There is enough of the primitive canine mind resident in dogs that I’d be shocked if a dog didn’t gorge when given the opportunity to eat raw meat, fat, organs, and bone. LOL.

But a raw-fed dog given calorically appropriate meals will not act food crazed. Ask me how I know?

Such dogs will be lean, vital, and hard-muscled vs the de-condition that results directly from feeding a high-carb cereal-based diet.

I’ve seen the differences with my own eyes. No comparison.

Thank you for your interest.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

Raw food isn’t “disgusting.” LOL.

Good grief. Nothing could be more natural than a dog eating fresh/or frozen whole animal-based food.

What’s disgusting is knowing what little “meat” is in processed kibbles likely comes from products that were condemned at the slaughterhouse, including items from dead, dying, or diseased animals and contaminated by-products that are deemed unfit for human consumption.

All these are perfectly legal (and common) ingredients in commercial kibble. As long as it gets rendered, any of these disgusting ingredients are perfectly legal for pet food manufacturers to use.

Ther rest of the ration (the majority) is made up of cheap carbohydrates that have no essential place in a dogs diet and that contribute to ill health.

Some of the things one reads on this forum challenge credulity.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[aimee]

Spycar

All studies are flawed and this is no exception . There wasn’t a significant difference in amount of weight lost .. controlling calories is still key… but the authors did report a significant difference in % fat lost. ” the low fat diet group lost a significantly greater amount of total body fat than the high fat group.” This outcome is not consistent with your beliefs.

I don’t disagree that people and dogs have different requirements. It is just that people like to drag out the “Dog’s don’t require carbs” mantra as if that is somehow proof that carbohydrate shouldn’t be fed to dogs…Just pointing out the argument falls apart as people don’t need them either.

Maybe you’ll like this one better comparing ad lib access to either high fat or high carb diet full text may tell more but the high fat didn’t satiate the dogs to the point that they didn’t overeat and gain weight

Adult female dogs were fed ad libitum for 25 weeks a high-fat diet (51% of energy from fat) or a high-carbohydrate diet (59% of energy from carbohydrate). Dogs fed the high-fat diet gained more body weight than did dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet. In both groups of dogs 78-80% of the increase in body weight was fat. The high-fat diet may have been utilized more efficiently for body fat gain than the high-carbohydrate diet; alternatively, it is possible to explain the increased body fat accumulation in dogs fed the high-fat diet on the basis of the small observed difference in energy intake. Dogs fed the high-fat diet consumed slightly more energy (13%) which resulted in the accumulation of more than twice the amount of fat accumulated in dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet during the 25 week study.

Have you read Schauf’s studies on satiety comparing high fat to high carb? No difference found

Oh my…. you certainly haven’t seen the same high fat raw fed dogs as I have “A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle.” Do you have any references to support that statement?

I’m pretty carb neutral neither for or against. For weight loss I like to see a high percent of calories coming from protein and lower fat levels to allow for the dog to be able to eat a decent volume of food and for owner satiety and the carbs fall where they may.

In general i’m not a fan of high fat diets I see way too much canine obesity as owners don’t control portions, so I’m all for a less energy dense diets.

.

[Spy Car]

Ryan, I appreciate the spot you are in getting diametrically opposed advice.

In the years I’ve fed a PMR style raw diet I’ve come to be able to spot raw fed dogs when I see them. It has happened a good number of times when I met “strange dogs,” and usually getting the “how did you know…well, of course, you know” type responses.

And I’ve been on the other side, where strangers have approached me and known immediately that my dog is raw fed.

You can tell when a dog doesn’t eat carbs. Every part of their condition from the skin, fur, teeth, breath and especially lean muscle mass with low body fat is vastly better. They stand out markedly from the condition of kibble-fed dogs.

Second-best is feeding a kibbled ration that reduces carbs as much as possible.

Here is a link to the type of formula I’d like to see.

https://victorpetfood.com/product-items/grain-free-ultra-pro/?portfolioCats=133%2C134%2C165%2C135%2C153%2C159%2C160

Disclaimer, I’ve never fed this food (as I feed raw) and I have no relationship with Victor’s. It is just an example of a reasonably inexpensive alternative called Victor Ultra Pro. It is a 42% protein/22% fat formula that they claim is 81% animal protein and has 14% carbs. Hard to do better than that with a kibbled diet.

It is nutrient dense (high calorie) at 479kcal/cup, so you’d probably need to feed about 2/3 the portion of a less dense food (depending). Maybe less. That also figures in cost. The volume of poop would also be cut significantly. Not just nice for you, but much kinder for a dog (especially one with issues) not to move extraordinary amounts of waste through their GI tract.

Since the fat provides a sustained energy supply, you could feed once a day (at days end) and your dog could then go to sleep instead of carrying around a belly full of food (which is actually really hard on dogs, especially breeds like yours with his conditions).

The fat in this sort of food would keep him satisfied (w/o the need for obscene amounts of fiber) and would supply steady energy.

I’d expect triglycerides to improve on the small chance the problem is diet related.

I would definitely ask for a thyroid panel to be run at the vet. I’m a little surprised they have not done so already.

I’d resist the low-fat/high-fiber-diet. I think your dog would suffer from such diet. It is no wonder he doesn’t like it. No diet could be more unnatural for a canine to eat. I’ve seen too many dogs on this misguided sort of diet, they never fare well. It is about the worst diet one could feed a dog in terms of nutrition.

I’m sorry you are getting contradictory advice. But there is no question which way I’d go based on the nutritional needs of dogs described in the veterinary science.

Best,

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@ aimee, dogs are not people. We have evolved with very different nutritional needs.

Human beings have salivary amylase, for example, the digestive enzyme necessary to convert starches. Dog’s lack salivary amylase.

it is a common problem that pet owners anthropomorphize their dogs and (wrongly) believe they have the same nutritional requirements and same metabolism we do, but that runs against evidence-based science.

Fat is an essential nutrient for dogs, as is protein. Carbohydrates are nonessential. Completely unnecessary in a canine diet. Their needs are not the same as those of humans.

Your accusations of ignoring the veterinary literature are false. Satiety studies involving low-fat rations require loading rations with fiber, which is hellish for dogs. Moving that much waste (and creating that much poop) is very hard on dogs vs the efficiency of metabolizing much smaller quantities of fat and protein.

I think you are confusing healthful salads and greens that are great for people with what’s good for dogs. And that ain’t a high carb diet. Nothing could be a less appropriate choice for good canine health.

Carbs are in modern processed dog food to make food inexpensive. That comes at a cost to dog’s health. A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle. A high protein/high-fat diet that reduces carbs as much as possible is a distant second choice, but miles ahead of an unhealthful fiber and cereal-based “low-fat” diet.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, there is no such thing as “nonessential fats.” Using the term in this fashion is scientifically incorrect. The fact is any level of carbohydrates in a canine diet is what is nonessential. Dogs do not require ANY carbohydrates in their diets to thrive. And the calories are better derived from essential fat and protein sources.

Optimal calories from fat are about 50-60% of calories (remembering fat has 2.25 times as many calories per gram as either protein or carbohydrates.

Replacing too many calories from protein with carbs leads to muscle tears and inadequate protein to build and repair muscle tissues and carbohydrate calories replacing fat reduces aerobic capacity and endurance, while promoting weight gain and tooth decay.

The reason pet food companies have so-called “weight loss” formulas built around high carb foods (besides the low-quality and low-cost carbs being a way to maximize profits) is that too many people don’t cut back on the amount of food when they feed higher-quality high-protein/high-fat alternatives. But stuffing a dog with a high carb diet is the path to obesity, It doesn’t work.

It is much better to serve smaller portions of high-calorie food. The fat in high-protein/high-fat meals satisfies a dogs hunger (and provides sustainable energy) where a dog fed high carb meals is always hungry and lacks the energy stores for sustained activity.

Trying to get a dog to lose weight on high carb rations is a recipe for failure. It doesn’t work.

Best to get rid of the nonessential calories from carbohydrates that are unnecessary in a canine diet. Just look at the body type of any PMR-style raw fed dog to see the drastic difference eating no carbohydrates makes in promoting a lean muscular body type.

The best thing one can do for a dog for a dog with disk or hip issues is to get it lean and strong. A high-protein/high-fat diet is the key to that end. High-carb diets cut vitality, crowd our essential nutrients, and lead to obesity and health issues.

Bill

[Patricia A]

I have been feeding my Chihuahuas Primal and Stella Chewy’s as a topper. The advisor listed both of these as his choices for his 2018 top choice food list and as being 5*. I was also looking into Vital Essentials and Wysong . Vital essentials has high protein low carbs but AVERAGE fat. Wysong freeze dried has actually BELOW average fat with the high protein and low carbs. Is there a strong benefit to having the above average fat in raw such as in the Primal and Stella’s.Why wouldn’t the raw commercial company strive for their product to be high protein average fat and low carbs. Wouldn’t MOST dogs do better being that some dogs are prone to pancreatitis . Also a good many dogs are overweight or are more sedentary during the winter months. So again..what IS the benefit of the higher fat since these foods have such a high ratings. Is it possible that the company is stating low fat when it’s not? Thank you . Hope I’m making sense with my questions.

• This topic was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by Patricia A.
• This topic was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@anon101, please refrain from making personal attacks. You asked for vet’s opinions. I shared the experience I’ve had. The name calling is unnecessary.

You are free to link (repeatedly) to the same anti-raw veterinarian if you choose, but I see the extremely positive results with my own eyes. I have a very happy vet. And a very happy dog.

I place great reliance on the expert opinion of my veterinarian. She is not a raw food advocate but loves the condition and health of my dog. You have no cause to question her judgement or my honesty in relating it.

Please stop.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@anon101, you ask for vet’s opinions on raw feeding and then reject what you hear, seemingly because you don’t like the answer.

My dog as great blood work. And is in top-notch health. All aspects of his condition are optimal, from clean white teeth to a hard muscled lean body that makes him look years younger than his 4.5 years. His vet, who as I mentioned has high breed-specific knowledge of Vizslas, is thrilled with his health and condition.

Science-based veterinary medicine shows that feeding carbohydrates to dogs profoundly reduces their stamina and aerobic capacity.

Sorry, but you are on the wrong path here.

Bill

[anonymous]

“My vet loves what raw feeding has done for my dog. She knows Vizslas intimately and is very encouraging of what balanced raw feeding has done for my dog”.

Very interesting. Could you ask this vet to come here to DFA, identify herself and express her opinions on the subject?

Otherwise, I appreciate your desire to express your opinions.
However. It is all anecdotal.

Nothing wrong with that, except that some of us prefer “science based veterinary medicine”.

[Spy Car]

Hey Ryan,

The best way to feed is always “by condition” rather than any fixed about. That means reducing calories if the dog is too heavy and increasing if the dog is getting too lean. On the last point, Americans tend to have very skewed ideas about what’s a healthy weight for dogs. It is best for dogs to be lean.

The two best ways to assess “condition” are:

1) To palpate the ribs with an eye towards assessing the degree of fat layer over the ribs. Ideally, that fat layer is very slight. In an obese dog, there will be a thick fat layer. Either way, this is your standard of measure as you adjust diet. It gives you a “bechmark.”

2) The other useful measure is to observe the dog from overhead and see to what degree it has a “tuck” (waist). Obese dogs will have very little (or no) tuck. Again, the tuck becomes a secondary benchmark.

As to diet, feeding low-fat is the worst thing one can do to reduce weight, While it seems counter-intuitive, dogs naturally metabolize fats as their optimal energy source. It was what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on. Carbohydrates on the other hand cut stamina and lead to obesity.

If you can’t do a balance PMR style raw diet the best thing you could do is to slowly transition to a high protein/high fat (low carb) diet and to feed fewer overall calories while you slowly bring down the weight.

The worst move is to increase the carbohydrates (by cutting fats) because those carbs (along with overfeeding and diet-linked de-conditioning) are the culprits in promoting obesity.

Best,

Bill

[Spy Car]

What is your purpose @anon101?

You can attempt to discredit the experience of others and outstanding veterinarian that have cared for our dogs over their lifetime and run blood tests and done physical exams.

Too bad the findings run counter to your anti-raw mission.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@anon101, my very outstanding traditional (one with a high degree of breed specific knowledge with Vizslas as she owns the grand-sire my dog) had some concerns when she learned I was feeding my (then 8-week old pup) a raw diet.

Prime among them was a legitimate concern that the diet provides a proper mineral balance. When I explained my awareness of the calcium/phosphorus ratios and my dietary plan to address the needs, her concerns went away.

In the 4 and a half years since, she has been blown away by the health and condition of my Vizsla. His teeth are gleaming white. Breath fresh. Shiny fur. Strong and clearly rippling muscles. Eyes clear. He doesn’t smell. He carries no body fat. His stamina is off the charts. He winds down easily when it is time. And his blood work is optimal.

My vet loves what raw feeding has done for my dog. She knows Vizslas intimately and is very encouraging of what balanced raw feeding has done for my dog.

He has not suffered from the dental problems, obesity, lack of energy, skin and fur problems, and other ills typical of kibble fed dogs. We had a large “puppy group” who used to meet up almost daily when our pups were young, who still get together. Those dogs (all kibble fed) are beginning to look aged compared with my Vizsla. Not a close call. Other owners comment on the difference. It isn’t subtle.

Strangers who meet my Vizsla always assume he’s a big puppy. It is what vibrant health looks like.

I understand you have an anti-raw position. I think it is very misguided.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Rosemarie, the raw mackerel bones are very soft and really aren’t an issue. I feed mackerel frequently, and I’m very risk-averse when it comes to bones.

If you want to maximize “the chewing” of raw mackerel my suggestion is to serve the mackerel (or mackerel cross sections) frozen.

If you feel uncomfortable serving bone-in mackerel, they are not difficult to fillet.

Problems with BARF include:

1) Feeding too much bone. Bone at 20% does not meet the universally recognized need to have a 1.2 : 1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio.

2) Grinding meats and bones unnecessarily.

3) Too many “recreational bones” that pose risks to teeth and obstructions.

4) The inclusion of non-essential carbohydrates in the form of fruits and vegetables Dogs have higher vitality when they are fueled primarily by energy from fat (with protein secondary). Carbohydrate metabolism interrupts fat metabolism and is a negative for canine health.

Also, understand that some raw fish contains an enzyme called “thiaminase” that disrupts a dog’s ability to use thiamine. IMS Pacific mackerel has “thiaminase” while Atlantic mackerel does not.

The smart way to feed raw fish IMO is to do it is a spaced out fashion (as “thiaminase” is said to dissipate quickly) as opposed to feeding daily. Daily feeding of thiaminase-rich fish can cause serious problems.

Best,

Bill

[Rosemarie A]

Sorry for additional clarity. I am not feeding commercially produced raw. I’m make and prep for my 4 dogs.

[Rosemarie A]

Thanks Pitlove! Maybe I’ll try that. I tried deboning it raw and boy was that a nightmare. There were so many bones and I gave up.

Bill. Thanks for the advice. They get rmbs with barf. From what I recall the major difference with barf vs prey is the ratio of muscle meat due to the addition of veg/fruit (10%). Besides 10% more muscle meat (and no vegetables) – liver, offal and bone percentages are the same with prey and barf. Chewing and tearing action essentially remains the same. I’m far more comfortable with giving them a large leg quarter before fish because of all those small sharp bones. I really want to just give them a whole fish but it really makes me nervous.

[Spy Car]

It is not necessary to grind raw mackerel bone. It is soft and easily chewed.

The BARF model, unfortunately, leads people astray from letting dogs chew and tear their own food. This isn’t to the dog’s advantage.

Bill