[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi neezerfan –

Once thawed raw food should be used within 3 days. I’m only aware of two pre-mixes designed to balance a bone inclusive diet – one is the whole carcass formula sold by Feline Instincts and the other is CarnivoreRAW without Calcium sold by Young Again Pet Food. A much cheaper route would be to just add a low calcium or calcium free human multi-vitamin, some veggies (or a fiber supplement) and omega 3’s. You could also learn to balance a recipe completely from scratch with whole foods (this is what I do) but it’s a bit more time intensive and takes a bit of research. Rabbit is high in bone (as are most smaller prey animals) but the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still balanced so it’s not necessary to add more meat. If you find that your dog is constipated you can certainly add more more (high levels of bone can cause constipation for some dogs) but I honestly don’t think it will be an issue. The rabbit heads should be fine for your dog, you’ll have to try them out and see though.

[pugmomsandy]

Trachea doesn’t have any meat on it either.

[neezerfan]

Hi! I have a couple of questions.
I’ve been feeding my dog Darwin’s, rotating with canned and giving RMBs about twice a week. I want to start feeding home prepared raw in place of the canned. So…
1. If I buy the grinds from Hare Today, they come in 3 lbs size? My dog is 12 lbs. He eats about 1/3 of a pound of Darwin’s a day. Once I defrost the grind package, will it go bad before I use it up?
2. If I get a grind with bone, is there a premix to use with that? I think all the ones I find are for boneless meat. I don’t want to use synthetic vitamins if possible.
3. I always thought both goat and rabbit were more bony than meaty, if you know what I mean. If I feed that, should I add in extra boneless meat?
4. Rabbit heads…As I said, my dog is 12 lbs, will they be too big for him? He does well with chicken necks, turkey neck pieces, ox tails and pork ribs so far. He’s a good chewer, not a gulper.
Thanks for your help!

[theBCnut]

Trachea has no bone, it’s cartilage. That makes it a great joint chew.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’d consider it a chew. I give them as treats occasionally, they keep the dogs busy for awhile.

[DogFoodie]

Hi guys!

Is a beef trachea a chew, rectreational bone or RMB?

[Hound Dog Mom]

No problem Betsy. I enjoy helping everyone learn more about raw food and I think it’s great that you’re incorporating some RMBs into Sam and Bella’s diet. 🙂

[DogFoodie]

Thanks, HDM!

You know, had it not been for your help, and the help of other raw feeders here, I probably would’ve been scared to get into raw at all. Raw can be a little bit intimidating and stressful and you guys always make it look so easy and are always so reassuring!

Thanks for taking the time to share all of your knowledge and experience with us!

Blessings, Betsy

[Hound Dog Mom]

You math looks right to me. BTW – to convert pounds to ounces just multiply the pounds by 16. So, 0.94 X 16 = 15.04.

[DogFoodie]

I’ve been doing RMBs intermittently, but am not trusting my math and am worried that I’m not calculating the amount that I’m given them correctly. Using a figure of 2.5% for the percent of their body weight that I’m choosing to feed, is this correct:

I’m feeding Sam as if he were 75 lbs, so the math is 75 x .025 = 1.88 lbs total daily divided by two meals is .94 lbs per meal, right?

When we get to 70 pounds, the math is 70 x .025 = 1.75 daily divded by two meals is .88 lbs per meal.

Bella, is 15 x .025 = .38 daily divded by two meals is .19 lbs per meal.

I found this conversion chart to convert pounds to ounces which will make this a heck of a lot easier to figure out when I get my digital kitchen scale. http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/pounds-to-ounces.htm

It’s just that for some reason, the math is throwing me off. You gotta hand it to kibble in the convenience department when it comes to calculating portions.

[SandyandMila]

When feeding pork necks, should beef hearts be added due to the pork neck being not very meaty? I read somewhere that recommended that. Being that its a big portion could i just add produce and supplement and make it a whole days meal? Also when feeding half or whole chicken, are all boned consumable? Mila I’m sure could handle it, she’s a strong chewer, but just worried about little bones. :\ Thanks!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by SandyandMila.

[mah4angel]

Yes! I do believe that we are always reunited with those we love; animal and human. Whether it be in Heaven or in another lifetime, whatever you happen to believe in ^_^

There’s a whole forum topic dedicated to raw dog food menus here: /forums/topic/menus/. I’m totally no raw dog food genie haha and you can see all of my ramblings and questions on there and my current future recipe is the last comment on the thread hehe. I don’t have everything I need to actually feed him his raw diet yet so that’s why I’m not feeding him 100% raw as of yet but I will be soon!

Here is a thread for help with starting a dog on raw dog food: /forums/topic/help-with-starting-my-dog-on-a-raw-diet/ BUT it will take a few months to transition her all the way up the ladder to raw food, so I wouldn’t be super worried about it quite yet 😀 I think the most important thing is to just get her off of Science Diet food. And if you have any of the Science Diet left, PLEASE donate it to a local shelter! I know that Science Diet is not at all optimal for our wonderful furry friends but shelters need all that they can get 🙂

I also wanted to add something that I forgot to my original comment, which is to start feeding raw meaty bones and organ meat (livers, hearts, etc.) when she is fully transitioned to DNA (or another freeze or air-dried raw). RMB’s as we call them are GREAT for dental health! And it’ll be a great introduction to real, raw meat. Pork necks, chicken necks, ox tails, chicken backs, chicken feet, pork feet, etc. are all RMB’s (as opposed to recreational bones like thigh bones, etc.) that are recommended. And the organ meats will supply extra nutrients. Just make sure to freeze them for two weeks just to be on the safe side 🙂

RMB’s and organs (and any table scraps, etc.) should make up no more than 20% of her daily diet (because it will throw off the balance supplied in the pre-made food), so you’ll want to give her maybe one pork neck one day and maybe one chicken heart the next day, and so on and so forth. BUT like I said, this is all a long way off so I wouldn’t focus too much on this portion of the feeding.

In reality, the longest transition time will more than likely be right now, switching from Science Diet to whatever 4-star GRAIN-FREE food (totally forgot to mention that the four-star food should be grain-free) you choose, whether it be Nature’s Domain or something else. This is because her tummy isn’t used to the lack of grains. It’s almost like a detox process. So, that transition will most likely take the longest to complete; probably a month or so.

This is why adding fiber (with things like pureed pumpkin, hemp, chia, and flax seed, etc.) and probiotics/digestive enzymes (with things like yogurt, etc.) is important because it helps to nourish the balance of good and bad bacteria in the gut as well as balancing out any other digestive problems.

I’m trying to pack in a lot of information into one comment so that you won’t have to do too too much fishing for information. It’s stressful, I know! The most important thing is to just pull the trigger and do it. I second-guessed myself and I waited until I felt I had found the perfect food, but no food is 100% perfect. There is no supplementing a wolf’s primitive diet with just one food, try as we might hehe ^_^

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jessica1 –

The Organix puppy formula is 1.05% calcium and has 2.89 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. – so yes, it’s a good choice. It would be perfectly fine to use both grain-inclusive and grain-free foods in a rotational feeding program. Many people are under the assumption that dry food is good for dental health – you’re not the only one. For the most part, this is a myth. Some dogs that thoroughly chew their kibble may may derive some benefit in comparison to a soft food however this benefit is minimal and will not be enough to prevent periodontal disease and – in my experience – most dogs don’t thoroughly chew kibble and therefore would receive no benefit. The only food that promotes dental health is a raw meaty bones diet and any dog eating commercial food, be it kibble or canned food, will need their teeth brushed on a regular basis or they will get eventually develop periodontal disease to some degree. Your vet telling you that your dog will have good dental health as long as he eats kibble would be the equivalent of your dentist telling you that you don’t need to brush your teeth as long as you eat crunchy foods – kind of silly, right? About 85% of dogs fed commercial foods over the age of 3 have some degree of periodontal disease, oftentimes it goes unnoticed by owners. Many people think “doggie breath” is normal, but it’s not. A dog’s breath should have no odor. All of the Organix canned foods appear that they’re labeled for adult maintenance, however if you’re only using the canned food as a topper and the bulk of the puppy’s diet is going to be a dry food approved for growth or all life stages this is fine. You could also top the Organix puppy kibble with a canned food labeled for growth from another brand, there’s no reason you can mix different brands of kibble and canned food. I hope that helps!

[SandyandMila]

The Primal website also shows in a video that u can thaw the portion by putting the bag in a big bowl filled with cool water for about 30 mins, so I might try that. It’ll be her first one so she’ll be a little hesitant at first. I hope she enjoys it. 🙂 I love the videos of Gertie eating her meaty bones, maybe I’ll post a pic. Thanks for your help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

You could add some of her regular food to it, but I really don’t think it would be necessary as long as she’s getting at least once balanced meal a day. The only think I would look out for is constipation from too much bone – if this does happen just give her a handful of hearts/gizzards or boneless chicken when you feed her a chicken back. It’s perfectly fine to feed partially frozen – I give my dogs partially frozen RMB’s all the time because I often forget to take them out of the freezer far enough in advance.

[SandyandMila]

I do plan on feeding them intermittently, but don’t want it to be unbalanced. Should I add some of her food (canned and/or kibble) or HK Embark to make it a meal? I’ve had it thawing over night but its still partially frozen, can I feed it like that or should I feed it tomorrow?

[Hound Dog Mom]

As long as she’s getting a balanced food at the other meal I think it would be fine to feed a larger RMB (such as a chicken back) as an entire meal a few days per week. Just see if it makes her constipated, chicken backs are basically all bone with some skin (very little meat) so the high bone content could make her constipated. I don’t typically give my dogs just an RMB as a meal because the calcium to phosphorus ratio would be too high. So, for example, if I were feeding a chicken back I’d give a chicken back + 1/4 lb. gizzards + 1 egg. But if you’re just feeding RMB’s intermittently making a meal of it shouldn’t pose an issue.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I agree with Sandy. Unfortunately, the ingredients in greenies are really really bad – giving your dog a greenie would be about the equivalent of giving your kid a candy bar. 🙁

I give my dogs raw meaty bones daily (turkey necks, chicken backs, pork necks, etc.) and natural chews (bully sticks, pig ears, dried tracheas, etc.) for dental health. I also brush their teeth. Most “dental chews” on the market are full of unhealthy ingredients.

[SandyandMila]

I’m going to be feeding Mila her first RMB (chicken back) tomorrow. Exciting!! Question, how much of her food should I feed her, is the chicken back 20% of her daily intake? Thanks.

[Hound Dog Mom]

My dogs love the rabbit heads (and whole prey rabbits) from Hare Today. Brains and eyeballs are a great source of taurine and DHA. 🙂

[theBCnut]

Rabbit heads are excellent to feed your dogs. There are nutrients in brains and eyeballs that aren’t found anywhere else in the body in an amount that could possibly help. Yes, they would be considered an RMB. An RMB is a bone that is consumable and has meat attached. That is pretty much any bone that isn’t large animal weight bearing. So a cow leg isn’t an RMB, but a cow rib can be for a large dog. But it isn’t for a small dog if the dog can’t consume it. Small goat legs are RMBs for 1 of my dogs, but not the other 2.

[Cyndi]

Absolutely! You can even feed the whole rabbit!

[dowsky]

are raw rabbit heads considered a rmb and also are they good to feed to my dogs

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi swampstomper –

This is a great question! I have fed my dogs a raw diet for about two years now and none have ever gotten sick and neither have I or anyone else around my dogs. Healthy dogs are fully equipped to handle the bacterial load present in fresh raw meat. For starters a dog’s saliva has antibacterial properties – there is a lysosome in their saliva that destroys bacteria (why they lick their wounds). Carnivores (like dogs) have extremely short digestive tracts in comparison to, say, a person’s digestive tract. Their digestive tracts are designed to get food in and out quickly before the bacteria have time to multiply to harmful levels. Lastly, dogs have very acidic stomach acid – much stronger than our stomach acid. In terms of nutrition requirements and their digestive system, dogs are not much different than their ancestors (wolves). Wolves not only eat fresh kill but also scavenge rotting carcasses (not that I’d recommend intentionally feeding a dog rotting meat! my dogs have, however, gotten a hold of many dead things over the years and never gotten sick). Dogs are meant to eat raw meat. The only instance in which I’d caution against a raw diet is for a dog with a compromised immune system. It’s also important to keep in mind that kibble-fed dogs are not immune to bacterial exposure – look at all the recent kibble recalls for salmonella! Salmonella is a normal constituent of the canine digestive tract and dogs fed raw and cooked diets have all been known to shed the bacteria in their feces.

I’d recommend checking out this article written by Dr. Karen Becker – holistic veterinarian and raw food advocate:

healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/15/raw-meat-the-best-and-healthiest-diet-for-pet-cats-and-dogs.aspx

As far as consuming bones – there are two types of bones: raw meaty bones (termed “RMBs”) and recreational bones. Raw meaty bones (i.e. chicken backs, turkey necks, etc.) are soft and pliable and consumed in their entirety – they should make up a large portion of a balanced raw diet. Recreational bones (i.e. marrow bones, knuckle bones or the deer leg you see Gertie eating above) are more dense are not consumed entirely – they’re more for enrichment.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pugmomsandy]

gmcbogger38,

Check out the Raw Dog Food Menus section for some ideas. Also some good reading is “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown and some books by Tom Lonsdale “Work wonders, Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones”, Dr Pitcairn, nutritionist Lew Olsen. There’s a recipe book by Becker/Taylor “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” that I used when I first started making my own raw. You can also buy quality items from Hare-Today Gone Tomorrow and My Pet Carnivore.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi dnaolson –

I feed my dogs a raw diet and they get raw meaty bones daily – these are great for dental health. My dogs are aged 11 months to 8 years and none of them (even my senior) have smelly breath or build-up. I try to brush their teeth daily – I forget sometimes, but they generally get their teeth brushed at least 5 times per week. Aside from specially formulated prescription kibbles (like T/D) the only food that’s going to promote dental health is a raw diet with raw meaty bones. There are some dental chews available but I have yet to see any with quality ingredients. And regardless of what your dog eats you need to be brushing its teeth, all dogs should have their teeth brushed at least 3 times per week. Hope that helps.

[theBCnut]

Mine don’t last that long.

[pugmomsandy]

I’m pretty sure my marrow bones are several months old.

[SandyandMila]

Great thanks!

[theBCnut]

I clip the bag closed after I open it and have had stuff be fine for well over a month. BTW, dogs don’t mind freezer burn like people do. My dogs get all my freezer burned meat, for that matter, they get other peoples freezer burned meat too.

[SandyandMila]

How long do the raw marrow bones stay fresh in the freezer once the bag has been opened? I’m going to feed Mila’s first raw bone tomorrow! 🙂

[pugmomsandy]

The wings are high bone but I mentioned it due to it’s small size since I have small dogs to begin with! Mine can also eat pork ribs easily. The beef ribs are too hard. They just gnaw on those after the meat is gone.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[beaglemom]

Thanks pugsmomsandy, that makes sense. They do have raw so I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the issue, just the increased amount of bone like you said. I will look into getting chicken legs/wings.

[pugmomsandy]

beaglemom,

Necks are very high in bone content and they are probably not use to digesting that much or even digesting real raw bones to begin with. The meat from the necks probably digested well and quickly as compared to kibble that can take up to 12 hours or more. I’d wait a couple days to give them another one and even introduce something with more meat like a whole leg (skinless to begin with) or give them half a neck with some additional meat/organs. You can also introduce more bone (and raw in general) into their diet to get them used to it with commercial products. I fed mine commercial patties for several months before doing RMB and started mine with chicken wings and then drumsticks. My recipe book calls for x amount of necks with x amount of meat so just a neck by itself if just too much bone. BUT given just a few times a week should be ok once they work their way up to it.

[beaglemom]

🙂 Thanks Cyndi & NectarMom… yea, mine have been having ground raw (Darwin’s, Primal, etc.) for about 2 months now and haven’t had any trouble with it. I know there’s ground bone in that but thought maybe the RMBs might have sat differently since the dogs probably swallowed bigger pieces of bone than they’d ever had before (but still small obviously, since they chewed them up). I was surprised it took over 12 hours to resurface such as it did. I’m keeping an eye on them but otherwise they’re great… I just hope it doesn’t mean that having a duck neck or whatever causes them to throw up each time. They clearly digested the meat well, just not all of the bone.

[NectarMom]

I had that happen too and I think. I over reacted too quickly and rushed mine to the vet. A good friend of mine has been feeding her Danes Raw for 12yrs and she said every now and then one of her Danes will throw up and she says it is common and just a case of mild Pancreatitis. It is scary though and freaks you out. I am one of those that is terrified of my dogs choking on raw bones. I am so stupid paranoid that I had ordered them raw rabbit chunks with bone and I cut the meat off away from the bone and threw the bone away. I am so weird.

[Cyndi]

When I started my dog on raw about a month and a half ago, she did the same thing the next day. But she just threw up the once and had a bit of runny poop. I think it might be just their systems getting accustomed to real food and not kibble, if I’m not mistaken. I’m sure HDM or someone else can give you a better answer, but I just wanted to let you know that it’s probably normal and my dog was fine and is thriving on raw now. Good Luck! 🙂

Oh, and I felt the same way as you did the first meal my Bailey ate raw. I don’t know if I was more nervous or excited or what. It was very interesting to watch her at work on the bones and using her teeth the way the were meant to be used instead of just crunching a bowl of kibble. I still enjoy watching her eat.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Cyndi.

[beaglemom]

Hmm a quick follow up on which I would appreciate any feedback… no one had a problem post-RMB until this morning when both threw up some small pieces of bone mixed with yellow bile. Both had normal poop (small, firm, etc) and both had an appetite for breakfast, and both are acting normally. Is this a normal reaction to the first time that much bone enters their systems… did they not chew enough… do I do feed RMBs again? Thanks HDM/everyone.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Glad to hear they enjoyed their RMBs! 🙂

[beaglemom]

Just wanted to share with the people I know will understand that my dogs just had their first raw meaty bones for dinner tonight! Each had a duck neck that my husband and I held the whole time, since I didn’t want any gulping. Once they both stopped playing tug of war with us, they got the idea and got down to chewing. I must admit that every single one of the questions that Hound Dog Mom posted in the original post on this thread went through my mind, haha… was that piece too big? Are they chewing enough? Etc. Aside from my tendency to worry too much, it was definitely satisfying to watch them be “true carnivores”, crunching and grinding away. They’re both happily sleeping/digesting now… I’m very hopeful it agrees with them so I can continue to increase the variety of RMBs in their diet!

[gmcbogger38]

Thanks guys for the information. I don’t feed rawhides anymore and haven’t for months. I buy them the antlers and I will start giving them some raw meaty bones. Any treats they have gotten lately were freeze dried liver and they got like maybe 3 total within the last couple weeks, so I’m pretty sure it isn’t from “extras”. I actually have looked into Annamaet foods and I like what I see. I will check out Nutrisca. I did get them some raw meat today and fed them a small amount to see how they liked it and they loved it. I really want to just feed raw only, but with one more year of school I won’t have the time. Thanks for the link to that enzyme. I will definitely get some of that. I will probably make an appointment with the vet for next week. Thanks, once again, for all of this information.

[SandyandMila]

Thanks, Sandy!

[pugmomsandy]

I have krill capsules and a bottle of Nature’s Logic sardine oil. I also have Udo’s oil. I’ll use both at the same time sometimes. Haven’t used the coconut in a while since it is just not as convenient!

[SandyandMila]

Great to know, thanks!

[theBCnut]

I use fish, salmon, or krill oil every day, and I use coconut about every other day, when I’m feeding a lower fat meat.

[SandyandMila]

Hi again, thanks for all the help! Do you use both coconut oil and fish oil or alternate the 2? Do you use krill oil? I had read and watched a video of Dr Becker educating about krill oil.

[gmcbogger38]

Here is my story: I currently feed ACANA and I rotate between the different varieties and all 3 of my dogs have done wonderfully on it. But after a rare bout with fleas my Saint Bernard has terrible yeasty skin with a horrid smell and my American Bulldog is starting to show signs of what I believe to be yeast issues, too. I have no idea if the fleas caused this or if it is just a coincidence, but I want to fix it soon. From my research I know raw is the way to go for the issues my dogs are facing and just plain better for them period. I am a full time college student with one more year of school, so feeding a homemade raw diet is not possible right now, but that is my goal one day. Anyway, I was thinking of feeding 50/50 raw and kibble. I wanted to feed Tucker’s Frozen Raw in the a.m. and kibble in the p.m.. I will probably switch my dogs to Orijen kibble because I know that white potato and sweet potato will feed yeast and Orijen does not contain those ingredients while ACANA does. I also will be feeding raw meaty bones once in a while. If I feed the 50/50 split will it still be beneficial to add a supplement like Nupro Silver? The people who owned my Saint before I got her did not feed her correctly as a growing pup (39 pounds underweight when I got her at 2 years old and was fed Iams), so since she has hip issues supplementing with glucosamine is something I really want to do and I figured the other natural ingredients in Nupro Silver wouldn’t hurt. If there are other supplements out there that are better please let me know. Just from my research the Nupro will be cheaper for me to give than the NuVet supplements I am giving currently. I also know that feeding duck feet is a natural source of glucosamine and I will be giving her some of those every now and then. I am just wondering if this plan sounds like a good idea or if it is stupid. I really don’t know a whole lot about raw, but I want to learn more. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[pugmomsandy]

Oh, the ethnic grocery stores have skinless necks also.

[SandyandMila]

Great, thanks!!

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve bought skinless turkey necks from Primal and I buy bulk duck necks from a local retailer by me. The grocery store has skinless necks too. I’ve seen them at Walmart and the health food store.