Forum Replies Created
I recently received an email from Dr Sagman to reset my password and that is when I saw your reply to me.
You say in your reply to me that you just saw my original post, you may have just seen it but you certainly did not understand it. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the bags I received yet you felt compelled to let me have it. You replied to me without any grasp of what actually happened!
“It was your responsibility to check dates,”
I checked the dates, the packets were four months old when I received them. If they would have sold with the speed that I was promised they would have all been long gone by April of this year when I contacted Mr Brown.
“your responsibility to know the prices, your responsibility that marking them up in price over retail they didn’t sell for you, etc.”
I received them at wholesale. They were offered for sale at below retail and still, they didn’t sell.
“And why would they be so “messy” by cutting them open? Try cutting them open with scissors next time.”
I cut them open with a scissors each and every time. The packets were very skinny and very full and it was impossible to tap, shake or do anything that would stop the powder from spilling out when they were opened. The packets were so badly designed that Mr Brown felt compelled to redesign them.
You made many assumptions that were untrue, a habit that you may want to reconsider in the future.
I have seen shave downs expose an undiagnosed condition such as low thyroid or alopecia.
I will explain. Let’s say your dog had a low thyroid and so far had no symptoms. Now you shave your dog down and the hair grows back sparsely or in patches. What happened was the shave down exposed the underlying disease. The hair would have eventually become as sparse or as patchy as it became after the shave down but the shave down allowed the process to become immediately visible.
That being said, I have never seen a dog’s hair not grow at all after a shave down. Even with an underlying disease you would probably see peach fuzz or patches or some kind of hair growth.
If this were my dog I would do a complete blood workup with a FULL thyroid panel, not just a t4 measurement. This might give you some insight into what is going on with your dog. I would also try to figure out if your dog was or is being exposed to any environmental toxins in or around your home.
I hope everything turns out all right!
Using vise grips doesn’t sound very safe. The vise grips could cure the dog of having any teeth as well as cure the gulping!
I would stay away from anything canned unless the can specifically says it is BPA (Bisphenol A) free.
Here is an article on the dangers of cans that contain BPA:
It is a great idea making your own chicken jerky. I make my own chicken jerky, I also make fish jerky, beef jerky and turkey jerky. For a more traditional jerky you could bake them longer. For air flow you could leave the oven door slightly ajar. This will help to dissipate the moisture. Either way they won’t last long.
For a longer lasting healthy chew I would look for Bully sticks made from South American cattle. Look for ones that say they are from cattle that are pasture raised without the use of any hormones or antibiotics. Most U.S. cattle are full of hormones and antibiotics.
Beef trachea’s from south american cattle are a great treat full of natural chondroitin, glucosamine, and collagen.
I would stay away from canned foods unless they specifically say they are BPA (Bisphenol A) free.
Here is an article on the dangers of cans with BPA:
Dental chews like zukes contain potato flour or other starches as their main ingredients. Potato flour can contain solanine a poison found in potatoes. Potatoes also contain lectins which can have a negative affect on gut health as well as make your dog more prone to allergic reactions to the food they eat. Dental chews like Zukes also contain vegetable glycerin which could also contain toxic substances. Dr Sagman the owner of this website wrote an article on the dangers of one type of vegetable glycerin:
The elevated ALT (alanine aminotransferase) refers to a liver enzyme that along with AST (alkaline phosphatase) is an indicator of liver disease when elevated.
The “Low Residue” diet refers to eating foods that are easily digestible. Fiber is one type of food that is restricted in a low residue diet. It is sometimes recommended for dogs with digestive issues.
I’m sorry to hear the your dog is not doing well.
I have some questions:
How often do you test your dog’s blood sugar?
Did anything change when his blood sugar rose to 600? (food, exercise, cold/flu etc)
In order to make any changes to your dog’s care regimen you have to be able to monitor his blood sugar every 2-4 hours to make sure everything is going well. Low blood sugar is much more dangerous then high blood sugar. Low blood sugar can kill you on the spot while high blood sugar takes months to kill you. Sorry for being graphic. If you did not change ANYTHING right before his bg (blood glucose) began to rise then you might lower his food intake by 10% and raise his insulin dose by 10% wait 24 hours while monitoring bg closely and then if his bg is still above 300 you could lower the food and raise the insulin each by 10% again.
I am not a fan of using only one type of insulin for controlling diabetes. You can achieve much greater control if you use a rapid acting insulin right before or after meals to control the bg rise from the meal and an ultra long acting insulin to control the body’s production of glucose that has nothing to do with meals.
Wet food, whether it is homemade or canned is a much better choice for a diabetic dog than kibble. All kibbles contain a significant amount of carbohydrates.
Remember with diabetes carbohydrates are the ENEMY. Limit them as much as you can. The lower his diet is in carbohydrates the better off you and him will be. I would try to stay below 15% in total carbs for your dog’s diet.
Managing diabetes is not an easy task but it can be done. As a guide for anyone who wants to learn about diabetes and obtain the skills necessary to control this disease I recommend the book:
You will learn a great deal about diabetes if you read this book and it really doesn’t matter that this book was written for human diabetes.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by soho.
Here is a copy of the email I just sent to Steve Brown and his Manager Chris Gelalich. I am happy that some of you received nice treatment from Steve but I have received nothing but horrible customer service. I will not be contacting them again.
“Hi Steve and Chris,
It is now 1 month since I first contacted you about my problems with the 135 single serve dinner mixes I bought. It is also 2 weeks since Chris made the following promise “Send my your shipping info and I will send you 3 bags to try out at n/c.” I sent the shipping address the same day. I still have NOT received anything from you guys. So I will not be doing any further business with Steve Brown or his company due to the horrible customer service and 1 month runaround I have received from both Steve and Chris.
Natures Variety Instinct line of foods is what I would recommend from Natures Variety.
If you are going to feed dry food I consider Orijen and Wysong Epigen 90 to be top of the line kibbles.
You could also supplement whatever dry food you feed with up to 20% fresh, lightly cooked meats. More than 20% would unbalance the vitamins and minerals in the kibble. For the fresh meat stay within the same meat groups as the kibble you are feeding, ie: add poultry to poultry based kibble, add red meat to red meat based kibble and so on. Eggs are a great protein and you can add a little to any kibble.
Whenever you change or add something new to your dog’s food remember to start slow. It is much better to be overly cautious when introducing new things than to try to undo a bad reaction to the new food or ingredient.
Since your dogs have been on commercial dog foods their whole lives I would not just switch them to raw. Dog’s digestive systems adjust to whatever type of food (raw, cooked, kibbled, canned, etc) that they are eating. In your case your dogs may have a hard time with the added bacteria present in raw due to the fact that the pH of their stomachs is not acid enough at the moment. Some dogs also do not like the taste of raw after all those years (or 13 months) of eating cooked foods. Lastly without knowing the state of your dog’s immune systems it can be pretty risky switching from kibble or canned to raw.
A home cooked diet of at least 75% meat and 20 to 25% non-starchy fruits and vegetables would be a great step up for your dogs without the added risks of raw. You could then gradually start cooking their food less and less and see how they do. If everything goes well they could eventually be eating a diet consisting of raw meats and pureed fruits and vegetables.
If you go the homemade route don’t forget to add calcium if they are not consuming raw meaty bones and a good multivitamin to balance out their diet.
I still have not received the 3 1 lb bags I was promised 8 days ago on 4-22-13.
I’m sorry if I speak the truth about products for dogs. I’m also sorry if people agree with me.
Please don’t make false accusations about me. If you have any proof of your accusations please post them, otherwise they are just slander.
Why is it OK for someone to post a flowery review about a dog food but you consider it attacking if the review is a negative one?
Can you please provide ONE example of me “attacking” anyone or anything on DFA?
I ALWAYS provide documentation and contact numbers whenever I post a not so stellar review of a product, this way ANYONE can verify what I said!!!
If you have any doubts that I received very bad customer service from See Spot Live Longer here is the proof:
Sorry for the delay and poor customer service; I apologize. The current product we have was produced on March 5, 2013 and has a shelf life of 8-10 months from that date.
The 1lb bag will make 25 one pound servings; a typical 40lb dog would eat the one pound serving in 3 meals (day 1/2).
Send my your shipping info and I will send you 3 bags to try out at n/c.
Gen Mgr. SCNP LLC”
I contacted Tyson Animal Nutrition 800-950-2344 and I spoke with Mark Occhipinti. I asked if it was possible for them to create a Chicken Meal product that was preserved with something other than Naturox, something more natural maybe. Mr Occhipinti said it was NOT possible for them to manufacture a custom batch of chicken meal.
Mr Occhipinti explained that their Chicken Meal is stored in huge finishing tanks and that they don’t have the capability to create a custom blend of chicken meal and therefore all their Chicken Meal is preserved with Naturox TX.
Tyson does have chicken by product meals that are preserved with either Ethoxyquin, BHA/BHT or Pet-Ox. Tyson only makes 1 straight Chicken Meal and that is always preserved with Naturox TX
In doing my research I contacted:
Griffin Industries: 866-327-5464 and Darpro Solutions: 855-880-5025
It turns out that Griffin Industries uses Darpro’s Meals. I spoke with Doyle Nauman at Darpro. Their chicken meal has the same ingredient profile as Tyson’s, it is also preserved with Naturox. The cost is approximately 75 cents a pound for a whole truckload. Their Beef Meal is preserved with BHA/BHT. I asked if they had a naturally preserved Beef Meal and he said no. I wonder if all the Beef Meal that is being used in dog foods is preserved with BHA/BHT.
Thank you for your input. The fact remains that Tyson’s Chicken Meal which Brother’s uses, costs 44 cents a pound for a product that is made from 4 pounds of chicken. The chicken is then ground, cooked and has the fats separated from the solids. Then it’s dried and pressed to remove even more fat and finally it’s preserved and packaged.
That comes to 11 cents a pound for each of the 4 pounds of chicken needed to make 1 pound of Chicken Meal and that includes all of the processing!
I am sorry but I just don’t see how this Chicken Meal could be a quality product no matter what it’s preserved with.
I make jerky treats for dogs and cats and they have less than 100 milligrams of salt per ounce. Please check them out if you’d like.
It looks like you are becoming my own personal stalker!!!
I get it, you don’t like my recommendations. You use an insulin regimen with your dog that was used in humans 25-30 years ago. Yes, NPH was the recommended insulin for treating Diabetes when I became diabetic almost 28 years ago. The current recommended insulin regimens for humans with diabetes has advanced dramatically and the insulin regimen I recommend reflects those advancements.
You on the other hand are using an outdated insulin regimen that is 25 years behind current knowledge about the treatment of diabetes and results in a shorter life expectancy due to complications from Diabetes. You are free to use whatever insulin regimen you like for your dog. Please start your own topic on the treatment of Diabetes. By posting outdated 25 year old insulin regimens on this topic you are potentially hurting the dogs whose guardians might follow your advice.
I have worked with over 50 dogs with diabetes. I have also worked with hundreds of humans with diabetes. One of the things that those dogs and humans have in common is the fact that an insulin regimen like the one I have outlined extended their lives and decreased the amount of complications suffered due to Diabetes.
Hyperlipidemia can be caused by badly controlled Diabetes. It can also be caused by other things.
The first thing I would do if I were you is try to tightly control my dog’s diabetes.
I would fast him or her for 24 hours while I figured out what dose of long acting insulin such as Lantus, Ultralente or Levemir controlled his basal levels of glucose. The basal level of glucose is what the liver constantly produces throughout the day and has nothing to do with meals. You might have to do the fast more than once (with plenty of days in between) until you calculate the correct dosage of long acting insulin. Then you can calculate the mealtime dose of rapid acting insulin such as Novolog, Humalog or Apidra. You would start with a very low dose and slowly increase the dosage until you find the dose of rapid acting insulin that adequately controls the glucose from your dog’s meals.
The beauty of a two insulin regimen is your dogs meals are not tied to any particular time of day and can vary in size. You can give the dose of rapid acting insulin immediately after a meal this way you give the correct dose of insulin for the amount of food your dog actually eats with no worries if he doesn’t finish his whole meal.
You must test your dog’s blood glucose levels a lot in the beginning while you figure everything out!!! I would test upon arising, right before meals, 2 hours after each meal and at bedtime.
The regimen I outlined is not a simple one but it can be done with the help of the right healthcare professional and I believe it pays off in the long run with a happier and healthier dog.
I would never feed my dog Hills W/D. Here are the ingredients:
Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Chicken, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Lactic Acid, Caramel (color), Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C) , Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Calcium Carbonate, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, Iodized Salt, Mixed Tocopherols added to retain freshness, Citric Acid added to retain freshness, L-Threonine, Beta-Carotene, Phosphoric Acid, Rosemary Extract.
Dog’s with diabetes are still dogs. They still need a lot of protein. Fat should vary with the individual dog’s health, issues, diseases, etc. The hills W/D diet in my opinion is not fit for any dog to eat. While hills tries to focus on the dog’s diabetes , they completely fail to meet the nutritional needs of ANY canine. Hills addresses the dogs diabetes with high fiber (29.5%), high carbohydrates (51%) , low fat (8.7%) and low protein (18.7%).
As far as diet goes I discuss this in earlier posts in this topic.
It literally could be many things other than a UTI. The urinalysis should help to diagnose a UTI. A blood test is always a good idea to see the red blood cells, platelets, white blood cells, kidney and liver values, etc. When your Vet examined your Shih Tzu they should have checked his prostate and examined the genitals and belly for any signs of trauma such as bruising, purple or dark colored patches or spots, scratches, etc. Familial history is also important as blood in the urine can run in your dog’s family.
I hope it is nothing, you and your pooches will be in my thoughts.
I am concerned about the use of feeding trials. I have read that the dogs are kept in cages for the whole length of the trial. Here is one example of what I read:
“Wysong does not agree with animal testing of any sort, including feeding trials. Even though there is no invasive, toxic, or disease-inducing experimental abuse in feeding trials, there is nonetheless a cruelty in keeping animals in a caged environment for such tests.”
So if the dogs are kept in cages I am against it. If there are other ways of doing the trials I would like to know about them.
The problem with ALL the links you posted and all the quotes about the effectiveness of Lantus (glargine) you supplied is this:
They only used ONE type of insulin in those comparisons. If you were to use only ONE type of insulin I would agree that NPH is marginally better than Lantus. But I have never nor will I ever suggest that you use only ONE type of insulin for a diabetic dog. You will NEVER get the level of glucose control using only ONE type of insulin as you will get with the 2 types of insulin regimen I recommend.
The above link tells you the onset of action and duration of 6 different types of insulin. For each type of insulin there is a graph. Axis y is insulin levels, axis x shows 4 points, Breakfast , lunch, supper and bedtime. The colored line in each graph shows the insulin level in the blood.
The first graph is the basal graph which uses Lantus, the line is flat and stays near the bottom of the graph at the top of the basal level of glucose but below the 3 peaks of breakfast , lunch and dinner. So if you took away the 3 peaks on that graph there would still be a low gray area that traveled from left to right on the graph. That is the basal level of glucose which is constantly being secreted by the liver. The dark blue line of the lantus rides nicely at the top of the basal level of glucose.
The next graph is the prandial graph which uses a rapid acting insulin such as Humalog or Novolog. There are 3 green lines that represent 3 different injections of rapid acting insulin. Each green line almost perfectly covers the 3 glucose peaks of breakfast, lunch and dinner.
So the Lantus perfectly takes care of the basal level of glucose and the rapid acting insulin almost perfectly takes care of the rises in glucose from meals. This is the regimen I suggest. My regimen COMBINES the long acting insulin of the basal graph with the rapid acting insulin of the prandial graph. In this regimen you would only inject the rapid acting insulin once if your dog ate only one meal, twice if your dog ate two meals and not at all if your dog didn’t eat that day.
I used Lantus as an example of an ultra long duration insulin. There is also Ultralente or Levemir. I used Novolog and Humalog as examples of a rapid acting insulin. There is also Apidra.
You suggest using ONLY NPH insulin. The graph of the NPH insulin shows the light blue line of the NPH not covering the basal glucose or the mealtime glucose AT ALL. This regimen is nowhere near as effective at covering the glucose of a dog with diabetes as the 2 insulin regimen I recommend.
I have tried my best to convey to you the superior effectiveness of the 2 insulin regimen I recommend over the use of NPH alone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. I ask you to please respect my opinions and I will respect yours. I wish you and your dog the best.
Hi, I am not a vet. All of my advise is based on my experience with both human and canine diabetes. It is exactly what I would do for my own dog with diabetes.
I would like to discuss an insulin regimen for the dog who is not consistent in his or her eating habits. Let’s say you never know how much they are going to eat at any given meal or if they are going to eat at all. This happens a lot to dogs whose health may be declining due to complications from diabetes or any number of other illnesses. It is also very helpful for the finicky eater.
You would still use a long duration insulin like lantus to cover the basal glucose levels which is glucose secreted by the liver and has nothing to do with meals. Lantus begins to work in 2 to 4 hours, has no peak and lasts for about 24 hrs.
For meals (prandial) glucose control you would use a fast acting insulin like Novolog or Humalog which have a duration of 4 to 5 hours. This would cover the glucose metabolism for any given meal without being tied to a certain time or meal size.
For the unpredictable eater you would inject Humalog or Novolog AFTER a meal. This way you could give the right dose for whatever size meal your unpredictable eater consumed or you could give no dose if they did not eat at all.
The most effective glucose control for dog or human is to cover basal glucose and prandial glucose SEPARATELY with 2 different types of insulin, a rapid onset short duration insulin for meals and a slow onset long duration insulin for liver glucose production which remains pretty constant throughout the day.
Here is a graph that shows the curves of different types of insulin:
The basal graph shows the flat blue line which covers the glucose secreted by the liver. The prandial shows the green line which closely matches the glucose from meals. The graph of the NPH insulin doesn’t closely match anything.
Thank you HDM
Artemis maximal has lab values for the food and the carbs are 17.8% on a DMB. Here’s the link for the Artemis maximal:
NV Instinct chicken has the same numbers for protein, fat and moisture on the GA as Artemis Maximal so unless I can get the actual carb content or the actual Protein, fat, ash and moisture content your 18% carb estimate is probably correct. I mean you were only 2 tenths of a percent off on your Artemis maximal estimate!
When I do the math for the two epigens the carb content is 5.5% estimated. I will email Wysong and see if I can get some actual numbers.
Protein 60% (min)
Fat 11% (min)
Fiber 3.5% (max)
Moisture 12% (max)
Ash 8% (estimate)
This list will be constantly updated but for right now it looks like the kibbles with the lowest carb content are in order from low to high:
Wysong Epigen 60 and 90, 11% carbs (DFA estimate)
Natura Evo Turkey & chicken 12%, red meat 15% and herring 18% carbs (NFE)
Artemis Maximal 17.8% carbs (actual)
Natures Variety Instinct Chicken 18% (HDM & my estimate)
Thanks again HDM!
A lot of dogs seem to be on only one type of insulin and it is usually a medium acting insulin which has a slope like a long in distance, short in height hill. This type of insulin makes it pretty impossible to control diabetes well. A dog must eat at the same times each day and the same amount of food at each meal.
In humans the best control of blood sugars is achieved using a very long acting insulin like lantus combined with a short acting insulin like humulin R. The short acting insulin is taken about 30 to 45 minutes before meals and the long acting insulin is taken once or twice daily to cover the glucose that is constantly being produced by the liver.
This type of insulin regimen requires more daily injections but it allows for several things that are not possible with a more simple insulin regimen:
1)Meals can be eaten at any time of day or night.
2)Meals don’t always have to be the same size and contain the exact same amount of carbs.
3)If your dog is sick or not eating you don’t have to freak out because you are worried that your dog will have low blood sugar because they didn’t eat.
4) You can adjust one of the insulins without also increasing or decreasing the size and content of meals.
5) Your dog will have much better control of his/her diabetes.
With the more intense insulin regimen meals and liver metabolism are handled separately allowing for a more effective control of blood glucose.
I believe that carbs are the enemy of anything (human, dog or otherwise) that has diabetes. I don’t agree with the Glycemic Research Institute that dry foods such as Nutrisca and Orijen are optimal for a dog with diabetes. Nutrisca has an estimated 36% carbs on a dry matter basis. Orijen has 25% carbs as estimated using the NFE (nitrogen free extract) method (this is extremely reliable). I think either % of carbs is waaay too much for a diabetic dog. If there were several foods with let’s say a carb content below 15% then I would look for the one with the lowest glycemic load. But if one food has 35% carbs and another food has 15% carbs it wouldn’t matter to me what the glycemic load of the first food was, I would choose the food with only 15% carbs!!!!
In dry foods (kibbles) the lowest carb content I have found is EVO which ranges from 12 to 18% carbs depending on the variety and Epigen (Thank you Hound Dog Mom) which has only 11% carbs in either of the 2 formulas.
In wet foods maybe you could just add some fresh meat which is in the same family (red, poultry or fish) that you are feeding at any particular meal. You are guaranteed a much higher quality topper if you add your own rather than a canned food.
That is [name removed by moderator at user’s request], the cream chow who changed my life when he rescued me and my family in 2002. He is in heaven now.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Mike Sagman.
A less restrictive option would be to remove a star for non disclosure. A 5 star food would become a 4 star food. This way would not place any limits on the the foods you were able to review!
I would love to see more disclosure about the ingredients in a companies foods. All companies use the prettiest marketing terms to describe the quality of their ingredients “only the best” “highest quality” “human grade this or that” etc.
I like the way the Whole Dog Journal won’t review a food if it doesn’t disclose who manufactures it. In the beginning some companies balked at this idea and refused to disclose the manufacturers name and the location of the plant. They used terms like proprietary information as an excuse not to disclose. WDJ stood firm and now they all disclose because they all want to be in the WDJ’s dry food list of top foods!!
Many companies use your websites rating to promote their foods. “fill in the blank” received a 5 star rating from the Dog Food Advisor. You could easily ask a manufacturer to disclose more info to be reviewed on DFA. Who actually manufactures their human grade this or that. Where do their meat meals come from, their vitamins, their meats, their fats etc.
This would accomplish several things. Manufacturers would start to disclose more, consumers would get a chance to learn more, companies that use inferior ingredients would start to upgrade their ingredients in order to get your coveted 5 star rating and people would start to avoid the companies who refused to disclose.
I would like to thank everyone who reached out to let me know they appreciate my posts!
Hi Guys and Gals
Regretfully not everyone appreciates my posts. This will be my last post on DFA. If anyone has any more questions about diet and diabetes please contact me at [email address removed by the moderator at users request]
Thank you everyone,
Hi Guys and Gals
Regretfully not everyone appreciates my posts. This will be my last post on DFA. If anyone has any more questions about my jerky treats please contact me at [email address removed by the moderator at users request]
Thank you everyone,
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Mike Sagman.
Be careful not to overdo the fiber. Too much fiber can cause a blockage. I would try to find a veggie from the link I posted as a first choice. Second choice would be the flax and chia. Last choice would be the psyllium. I have also found that adding some meat and calcium to most commercial dog foods will also firm up the stools.
For fiber flax seed meal and chia seeds have a lot more fiber than pumpkin. Psyllium seed husks have the highest fiber.
Here is a link for high fiber vegetables:
These recommendations are just my opinion and I am NOT a vet. This is just what I would do if I were in your situation. I would try to find a holistic or integrative vet to be part of your healthcare team in dealing with your dogs diet and his diabetes!
There are many many options for your pom. Since you mentioned you would love to make his food here is one option. Buy ground turkey, ground beef and chicken breasts from your local supermarkets. Buy some frozen vegetables, no onions or starchy veggies like potatoes and no grains. His diet should be at least 80% meat and no more then 20% vegetables.
You can steam the veggies and then mash them up or you can puree them in a blender or food processor without cooking them. The idea is to make the veggies easier to digest since dogs don’t process veggies that well. The meats can be lightly cooked using low heat. I would be cautious about giving raw food to your dog at this point because it is hard for anyone to judge the condition of his immune system and the damage that has been done from the diabetes. A good immune system is necessary to handle the bacteria from raw food.
Since there are no bones in this diet a calcium supplement is necessary. If it is made for dogs it will have the dosages on the label. A multivitamin is also necessary because it is difficult for the home prepared diet to be complete and balanced without adding vitamins and minerals. Again if it is made for dogs the dosage will be on the label. I would also add some digestive enzymes and some sardines for their omega 3 content. The sardines would be part of the 80% meat portion of the diet. additional toppers like green tripe and organ meats can be rotated in the 80% part of the diet. Toppers should be no more then 20% of the total diet.
This is a start and there are many more options than the one I have given. A good book for you to help with your dogs diet would be see spot live longer by Steve Brown.
I wish you and your pomeranian the very best!
I think we’re getting stuck on “pet grade” vs “human grade”. Let’s say you start with a human grade certified organic chicken. You remove all the parts that humans eat; the legs, breasts, wings etc. After you remove all the meat that humans eat you are let with the frame, the little pieces of fatty meat and skin that are stuck to the frame and the bottom of the bird etc. Now you grind that all up and make it into a certified organic pet treat. I call this pet grade meat and I believe it falls into “Choice 1”.
But before we go any further with this discussion let me say that we could probably debate this forever without ever coming to a definitive conclusion. That is one of the biggest issues I have with the pet food industry. There is no real transparency. There is a lot of “creative marketing”.
No pet food company discloses everything. They use terms like “Trade secret” and “Proprietary information” and the consumers go along with it. I think the consumer has the right to know EVERYTHING about the food they feed their dogs and cats. That is why I am practicing what I preach.
In the opening post of this thread you were told more about my treats then you will ever know about 99% of the other treats out there. You know the actual cut of meats I use (boneless skinless chicken breasts or fish fillets). You know where I buy them (Costco). You know the companies that the meat comes from (foster farms or seamazz). You know the spices I use (garlic salt) and the temperature I dehydrate the meats at (145 degrees F). If there is something you would like to know about my treats just ask. I will answer you promptly and publicly. I believe this kind of transparency is very rare and I believe it is priceless!
I actually said that pet grade chicken (or any other pet grade meat for that matter) is :
“what is left over after everything that can be used for human grade chicken is removed! And that’s the good stuff.”
“The bad pet grade meats are the Dead, Dying, Downed or Diseased meats that never made into the human food chain in the first place!”
So I guess because plato’s chicken is certified organic then it is choice one instead of choice two.
Thank you for your reply! Let’s take a closer look at the Plato Organic Chicken strips.
First the marketing claims:
Over 90% organic chicken
Natural ingredients, fortified with antioxidant vitamins, and zinc
No artificial colors, flavors, synthetic preservatives, or GMO’s (genetically modified organisms)
Antioxidant vitamins E and С
No meat by-products or meals
Second the Actual Numbers and ingredients:
Crude protein: 30% min
(How in the world are these treats over 90% chicken and only 30% protein?)
Crude fat: 30% min
(Where did all this fat come from if the treats are over 90% chicken?)
Crude fiber: 1% max
Moisture: 15% max
(This moisture level is a little too high in my opinion to guarantee against spoilage.)
Zinc: 180mg/kg min
Vitamin E: 101 lU/kg min
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 50mg/kg min*
Omega 6 Fatty Acids –
Omega 3 Fatty Acids –
Organic chicken, organic brown rice, salt, zinc propionate, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2phosphate (a source of vitamin C), mixed tocopherols (a natural preservative), rosemary extract.
Now lets take a look at the facts about my chicken jerky:
Made from boneless, skinless chicken breasts bought at the deli section of Costco. This is not pet grade chicken. I know that there are a million marketing claims concerning the chicken in pet foods and treats but not one of the commercial brands are made using supermarket meat like I use. This is the same meat that you and your family eat.
You say you wont eat farm raised fish or feed it to your dog. I respect you for that. But why would you feed your dog pet grade chicken which is a by product of the human grade food business? Pet grade chicken (or any other pet grade meat for that matter) is what is left over after everything that can be used for human grade chicken is removed! And that’s the good stuff. The bad pet grade meats are the Dead, Dying, Downed or Diseased meats that never made into the human food chain in the first place!
Ingredients: 99.8% boneless skinless chicken breasts, salt, garlic. The only thing added to my chicken jerky is 0.2% spices (salt and garlic).
Guaranteed analysis as fed:
(You read that right 87% now what treat could be better for a meat eater)
(This is what the fat could be in other products if they used the same chicken breasts that I do)
(Remember dogs have no biological need for carbs)
(This is what ash is)
(5% moisture is low enough to ensure against spoilage)
The chicken I use is Whole Chicken Breasts intended FOR human consumption. Not ground pet grade chicken (Plato)
My chicken jerky is JUST chicken and 0.2% spices. Plato uses brown rice as a filler.
When you look at the facts my jerky is a great value. Compare my jerky to other human grade jerky products sold for human consumption and you will see that my jerky is an OUTSTANDING value!
Thank you aimee
To everyone reading these posts on diet and diabetes.
I think if people looked at diabetes a little differently then everyone would understand what I am trying to say. Having diabetes is like having a severe allergy to carbohydrates. This allergy is so severe that anything but the tiniest exposure will cause central nervous system damage, blindness, loss of limbs and death.
I hope that helps!
Here are two segments I found from a paper entitled “Do dietary lectins cause disease?”
The first segment talks about the mechanisms by which lectins cause diabetes.
The second segment explains why everyone who eats lectins does not develop diabetes.
I also found some papers that postulate that lectins may cause insulin resistance.
My point is that I agree that lectins may be an evil force to be reckoned with. It is just that there are many many arguments supporting both sides of the do lectins cause this or that and in who or how many debate and there is know way we can bring this to closure in this forum.
What I do know through my experience with about 50 dogs who had diabetes is that once a dog has diabetes the clock starts ticking and unless the guardian of that dog makes a heroic effort to control that dogs blood sugar the devastation begins! I also know that the amount of carbohydrates that a dog consumes is directly related to rate of devastation.
Injected insulins are most effective at matching the curve of glucose metabolism when used in small amounts. Injected insulins can be plotted along a graph where one axis is time and the other axis is amount of insulin. In order to closely mimic the graph of carbohydrate absorption with the graph of insulin absorption small amounts of each must be used. As you increase the amount of carbs consumed it becomes more and more impossible to match with the use of injected insulin. Therefore the total amount of carbohydrate consumed is the most important factor in controlling diabetes and avoiding the devastation that this disease usually causes
First segment of paper:
Of particular interest is the implication for autoimmune diseases. Lectins stimulate class II HLA antigens on cells that do not normally display them, such as pancreatic islet and thyroid cells.9 The islet cell determinant to which cytotoxic autoantibodies bind in insulin dependent diabetes mellitus is the disaccharide N-acetyl lactosamine,10 which must bind tomato lectin if present and probably also the lectins of wheat, potato, and peanuts. This would result in islet cells expressing both class II HLA antigens and foreign antigen together—a sitting duck for autoimmune attack. Certain foods (wheat, soya) are indeed diabetogenic in genetically susceptible mice.11 Insulin dependent diabetes therefore is another potential lectin disease and could possibly be prevented by prophylactic oligosaccharides.
Second segment of paper:
But if we all eat lectins, why don’t we all get insulin dependent diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, IgA nephropathy, and peptic ulcers? Partly because of biological variation in the glycoconjugates that coat our cells and partly because these are protected behind a fine screen of sialic acid molecules, attached to the glycoprotein tips.10 We should be safe. But the sialic acid molecules can be stripped off by the enzyme neuraminidase, present in several micro-organisms such as influenzaviruses and streptococci. This may explain why diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis tend to occur as sequelae of infections. This facilitation of lectins by micro-organisms throws a new light on postinfectious diseases and makes the folklore cure of fasting during a fever seem sensible.
Hi HDM and Patty
On the EVO website the carbohydrate percentages are listed like this: Carbohydrates NFE (Max) 12.0 %. NFE stands for nitrogen free extract. Nitrogen free extract is what is left after the moisture, protein, fat, fiber, and minerals have been removed from the food.
So it looks like the carbohydrates listed on EVO”s website are based on a dry matter calculation.
Pancreatitis is inflammation and swelling of the pancreas. The causes of pancreatitis in dogs are still not that clear. Certain drugs like corticosteroids increase a dogs chance of getting pancreatitis.. Dogs with Cushing’s disease, diabetes, hypothyroidism, and some forms of hyperlipemia are also at increased risk to develop Pancreatitis. I am by no means an expert on pancreatitis.
So although one of the causes of Pancreatitis may be a diet that is high in fat, the devastation that diabetes can cause to a dog has to be considered very carefully when choosing a diet for the diabetic dog. Choosing a diet based on carbohydrate content as long as the protein levels are adequate is NEVER “misleading” as you stated in your reply. Each dog is different and everything about the dog must be considered whether or not the dog has diabetes. That being said carbohydrates are the single most problematic ingredient for any dog with diabetes.
Thank you again. I just quickly looked at the formulas for epigen and epigen 90. Although they both contain 60% protein the regular epigen contains an undetermined amount of vegetable proteins. The epigen 90 is 90% meat and organs with no apparent vegetable proteins.
They both must have a carbohydrate content lower then even EVO! I will look into them more thoroughly and post what I find.
Thanks again HDM
Thank you for the explanations of glycemic load and glycemic index.
As for the effect of different binders on blood sugar I think that the amount of carbs regardless of the glycemic load of those carbs is a very important factor. Whatever the glycemic load of a food is the carbs in that food still must be metabolized by the body. The lower the overall carb content of a food the easier it’s going to be to control those carbs with insulin.
From my understanding Mike S uses a formula to estimate the carbohydrate content of foods. If he had access to the exact percentages of every ingredient in the food he could calculate the carb content more accurately.
On the EVO website they list the carbs in the Guaranteed analysis tab and the foods are as follows:
Turkey and Chicken, Carbohydrates 12% Max
Herring and Salmon, Carbohydrates 18% Max
Red Meat, Carbohydrates 15% Max
So the actual carb content of EVO’s dog foods is between 12% and 18%. At that low level the binder (potatoes) would not affect the blood sugar as much as let’s say a food that was 30% carbs and used lentils as a binder. Let’s not forget that the overall carbohydrate content of a food is very important and that the lower the carbs the better the food is going to be for a diabetic dog.
As far as kibbles go these foods are the lowest in carbs that I know of. If anyone knows of other kibbles this low in Carbohydrates please let me know!
Adding fresh foods like meats or fish to any kibble is going to lower the overall carb content and improve the overall quality of the kibble. As for Brother’s kibbles I don’t think I would classify the 35% dry matter basis carbohydrate content as a minimal binder or a low carbohydrate food. Again the carb content of Brother’s kibbles on DFA is just an estimate and anyone who knows the actual carb content please let me know!
One of the disadvantages of Tapioca is it has a high glycemic load. It has an average rating of 83 on the glycemic index.
There are many foods that can be used as a starch in dog foods that have a much lower glycemic load than Tapioca. Here are just a few examples: Green peas are 51, Lentils are 30, Chickpeas are 36 and sweet potatoes are about 50.
If you have a diabetic dog or you are concerned about the glycemic load of your foods then Tapioca would not be your best choice.
Freeze dried / dehydrated should be distinguished from dry kibble. If you use moisture content as basis for dry or wet, freeze dried and dehydrated are dry.
You could call your categories;
Dry (kibble) or just kibble
Dry (freeze dried / dehydrated) or just Freeze dried / Dehydrated
In a dehydrated whole food product such as Grandma Lucy’s the QUALITY of the ingredients is far superior to your average kibble. In a dehydrated food you can take regular unprocessed foods and remove most of the water using a low heat. You wind up with a much less processed food than ANY kibble.
In a kibble the high protein content is always achieved by the use of meat meals. Meat meals are a highly processed protein concentrate that can be made from much lower quality ingredients than what is used in your average dehydrated product.
You can add some meat or a 95% meat canned food to Grandma Lucy’s as a topper and and you would have a much more nutritious product than you could have by using any 5 star kibble as your base.
The ingredients in greenies canine dental chews are:
INGREDIENTS: Gelatin, wheat protein isolate, glycerin, pea protein, water, potato protein, sodium caseinate, natural poultry flavor, lecithin, minerals (dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, magnesium amino acid chelate, calcium carbonate, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganese sulfate, potassium iodide), vitamins (dl-alpha tocopherol acetate [source of vitamin E], L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate [source of vitamin C], vitamin B12 supplement, d-calcium pantothenate [vitamin B5], niacin supplement, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride [vitamin B6], thiamine mononitrate [vitamin B1], folic acid), dried tomato, apple pomace, vegetable oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), ground flaxseed, dried sweet potato, cranberry fiber, dried cultured skim milk, choline chloride, taurine, decaffeinated green tea extract, carotene, chlorophyll (sodium copper chlorophyllin)
This is a treat that I definitely would not feed any dog or cat. I just started making jerky treats for dogs and cats. Here are the ingredients of the chicken variety:
Boneless skinless chicken breast.
Salt or molasses or honey depending on the variety.
That’s it. This is the kind of treat I think is species appropriate for a carnivore such as a dog or cat.