[Christopher E]

Madison et al… I started this thread when I myself was eating a vegan diet. Although I still believe that eating vegan is the healthiest choice for both myself and my dog, I didn’t have the conviction necessary to stay away from meat and dairy, which I love. But my dog, on the other hand, has to eat what I give her. Clearly she would prefer a steak over a carrot… as would most any human; but I have decided what I believe to be the healthiest diet for her… which is a diet low in carcinogens and, more importantly cancer growing fuel… cancer is, after all, the number one killer among K9s.

Madison, I understand that you feel a need to defer to what your vet tells you, but there is a flaw in your logic… doctors, by and large, do not know anything about nutrition. Medical schools have only recently begun offering basic introductory courses on nutrition… it is just not what they are trained for.

99%+ of doctors (human) who would actually be willing to discuss diet with you would tell you that eating a 100% vegan diet is not healthy… but you still do it.

I am not pushing my ideals/morality/etc onto my dog as many other posters have stated or alluded to. Even when I was eating vegan I was doing it solely for health reasons. Don’t get me wrong, I was also happy that I was creating less of a negative impact on the environment and that animals were not being mistreated because of my diet… but those were just added benefits.

I feed my dog nature’s balance vegan dry kibble, along with a plethora of supplements (see below), simply because I want for her to live another 10 years and remain as energetic, lucid and healthy as she always has been.

(Vitamins: A,D,E,C,K,B-1,2,6,12,Panthothenic Acid, Folic Acid, Paba, Choline, Inositol, Rutin,Biotin; Minerals: calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, sodium, zinc, Cooper, manganese, iodine, sulphuric, silica, molybdenum, boron, selenium, iron; Protein: alanine, arginine, aspartic acid, asparagine, cystine, cystiene, glycine, glutamic acid, histidine, hydroxyproline, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methsonine, valine, ornithine, phenylalanine, proline, serine, threonine, glutamine, tyrosine, taurine; Enzymes: amlase, trypsin, papain, lipase, protease, protease, bromelain, pepsin, ditase, pectase; Essential Farty Acids: arachidonic acid, linolenic acid, linoleic acid, oleic acid (Norwegian Kelp, ground Flaxseed, nutritional yeast, garlic, calcium citrate, lecithin, borage seed, lactobacillus, acidophilus + amino acids and enzymes))

[Christopher E]

What most are failing to realize is that what your dogs ancestors ate is completely irrelevant.

Unless you are feeding your dogs raw food scraps, you have already altered their diet from what you are arguing is “natural,” i.e. What it was between 15k years and maybe a century ago.

But, again, that is irrelevant, the point is that numerous studies have shown that high levels of proteins grow cancer cells… and every dog in America is subject to higher and higher levels of carcinogens than the previous generation. Carcinogens are everywhere in the modern world.

That dogs have always had meat as the main component of their diet in not a valid argument. As myself and others have pointed out, it is entirely possible to provide a complete and balanced diet without animal products.

For anyone who has said that animal product free, vegan diets have not been proven to be healthy in humans or dogs in the long term… you clearly have not done your research because the studies are out there.

I am no longer a vegan. I tried to do it for a while for health reasons, not out of feeling sad for animals (though it does make me sad to think about how they are treated and slaughtered just for our enjoyment). Unfortunately, I love meat too much though. Sorry.

But when it comes to my dog, she is still a vegan. I don’t feed her animal products (except for the ocassional filet mignon scrapes I give her) because I believe that she is healthier and will live longer on a nearly entirely vegan diet. My opinions have been extrapolated from decades of research findings.

There is not any SCIENTIFICALLY EMPIRICAL study that has shown that humans or dogs need meat as part of their diet to be healthy and whole.

Look back over my numerous post on this thread, going back to the first post, if you doubt me.

There is nothing cruel or innately wrong about not feeding your dog meat if you are providing a complete and balanced diet (all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and nutrients). Arguing that’s it’s cruel because it is not in their nature is ridiculous. They are dogs for Christ sake. Non of this was “in their nature” when we first began domesticating them (wolves) 15k years ago. Just like our children, we have to do for them what we believe is best for them based on the information we have available… not whatever is in their nature… which, honestly is a completely arbitrary statement.

[Christopher E]

InkedMarie,

Lol. You are hilarious. You talk like what you say is gospel. I back up what I say with facts, non-biased scientific studies and analytical reasoning. I guarantee you that I am far more educated than you are and it shows. You are just being a parrot, repeating what you have heard time and time again. Dogs do not “need” meat and an argument that their ancestors from over 10,000 years ago nearly exclusively consumed it or that they otherwise prefer it over alternatives that are healthier for them has absolutely no merit. I would prefer a juicy burger over a salad or rice and beans any day of the week and my ancestors ate nearly exclusively meat 15,000-20,000 years ago, but that does not mean it is the healthiest thing for me. We are all (dogs and humans alike) hardwired to desire/prefer higher calorie food such as meat, but that does not make it our healthiest potential diet. It helped us survive 10,000+ years ago but in this day and age it is just making us all fat and unhealthy… To suggest your dog is somehow exempt from this plain and clear truth is nothing short of ignorant.

[Christopher E]

InkedMarie,

On a very fundamental level, you statement does not make any logical sense. We are not talking about what our dogs can and cannot have. We are discussing what is best for them.

You or I could survive on a 100% Emu or Kangaroo diet as well. We may even like or love it, as I am assuming you’re implying your dogs or dogs in general do/would. But, that doesn’t mean it’s our healthiest option, for us or the planet as a whole.

[Christopher E]

Jenn H… You are confusing “more nutritious” with higher calorie… Dogs (and humans and every other animal for that matter) are instinctively trained to consume and choose the highest calorie foods available…

This is the reason that sugar and fat taste so good to us. When animals were evolving in the wild this helped us survive, but in the world today it is working to our disadvantage because we are no longer fighting for survival… On the contrary we have a surplus of calories available.

The same applies to dogs. We as humans have to make intelligent decisions about what we eat and choose healthy options, not just what taste best or what we may want the most. The same applies to our pets, except our dogs dont have the intelligence to do this…. Like you said, they will choose the can of meat over the lentils (just like we would choose the burger or donut over the lentils if taste and desire were the only factors); but that does not mean it is the better choice for them. It is up to us to decide what is best as owners and guardians.

Do your research, read a book (hell, read a stack of books and studies), and then think a little harder before you form your conclusion.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Christopher E.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Christopher E.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Christopher E.

[Christopher E]

Nature’s Balance makes a vegan kibble that we have been feeding our 70lb Australian Shepherd mix for a while… After switching from V-dog. She did good on V-dog and always had normal stool but I was looking for a more readily available alternative and Nature’s Balance Vegan Kibble is sold at all Pet Supermarkets (marketed as “vegetarian” though it is actually 100% vegan and states that it is such if you inspect the bag closely).

Our dog is doing great since we switched her to vegan kibble. We are also supplementing with Nupro, which is not 100% vegan because it has dissected liver (for taste), but everything else in it is vegan I think… Norwegian Kelp, Flax Seed, Nutritional Yeast Cultures, etc. For me, I was promoted to switch our dog to vegan after researching Dr Campbells work in the China study and Dr Estelsteins plant based diet approach to healthy living. There is no reason to think that it would not apply to canines and certainly would account for the extremely high rates of cancer in dogs, given there extremely high intake of animal protein found in most all dog foods. The fact of the matter is that, in the world that we live in today, we are all exposed to carcinogens at increasingly higher levels and the same goes for our pets. It has been long proven that animal protein is Miracle Grow for cancer and that an all plant based diet can prevent and even reverse the multiplication of cancer cells/tumers. The only reason that this is not as largely accepted as truth as it should be is all of the industries who lobby against such studies, and, uncoincidentally, fund numerous other “scientific” studies that purport to show the opposite for the sole purpose of creating misinformation. When canines lived in the wild, I.e., before the first wolves were domesticated, they rarely came across carcinogens… So high intake of animal based protein likely didn’t have the same I’ll effects as it does today.

Personally, I am an on again, off again vegan… Because I LOVE meat and cheese but also understand that the negative health consequences are many. Anyone who denies this is a fool. Anyone who claims dogs cannot be healthy on a plant based diet just because their ancestors almost exclusively ate meat has no idea what they are talking about. In the past canines did not have the opportunity to be given a complete diet consisting of plant based foods which are far healthier for them, that is no longer the case.

Whether you like it or not this is going to be a mute topic in 50-100 years anyways because if the world population continues to grow at its current rate a diet consisting of mainly meat will no longer be sustainable for humans or pets. Do your research before you start talking. Dogs are not obligate carnivores.

*Refer to my original post at the beginning of the thread for more info.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Christopher E.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Christopher E.

[Christopher E]

The amount if misinformation on this thread is a reflection of our ignorance regarding our own dietary needs.

You should all go and watch the documentary Forks Over Knives. To sum it up if you haven’t seen it… They basically spell out how overwhelming scientific data proves that eliminating animal based foods from our diets (dairy and meat… Just any animal protein) completely eliminates cardiovascular disease and reduces cancer rates exponentially, the two leading causes if death in the US. You’ll have to watch the documentary or do some independent research to fully understand how, but, basically, without animal product the higher levels of cholesterol that lead to cardiovascular disease are not present and cancer cells do not grow and in most cases actually diminish.

What’s important to understand is that we all have carcinogens in our bodies. They are in the air we breath, the products we consume, and most of everything we touch. This is becoming increasingly true as society advances. The fact of the matter is that we are all at risk and those of us who eat meat might get cancer while those of us who consume an all whole food plant based diet probably won’t.

The next important connection to make is that there is no reason to think a dog or cat’s biology is any different, at least not at this level of biology, that is, when considering cancer grow in mammals at the molecular level. (After all most-all cancer studies are done using mice… Creatures much “further” genetically speaking from humans) Before dogs and cats were domesticated… When they were wild wolves and big cats they had no carcinogens (or as near zero as possible on earth) in their diets so eating a diet that consisted entirely of animal product didn’t have any adverse affect. BUT TODAY our dogs and cats are living in the same society as us, exposed to the same increased(ing) levels of carcinogens.

So, in conclusion, there is no reason to believe that eating a whole food plant based diet void of animal product wouldn’t have the same effect of reducing cancer rates among cats and dogs as seen in human studies…. It is true that canines and felines require a larger percentage of protein in their diets than humans, but even those levels are obtainable with the right plant based diet…. The goal would be to provide a diet nutritionally equivalent to your pets pre-domestication, carnivorous diet with a plant based one.

Also… I personally am not a vegan…. I love bacon, milk chocolate, steak, all of it… But I am also not an idiot and I know what I should and shouldn’t beep eating… ideally. Hopefully a year from now I will have been able to cut out all animal product from my diet… and I don’t see any reason (nutritional or otherwise) not to consider bringing my 6 year old Aussie or two 1 year old cats along for the ride so long as I make sure they are getting all the necessary nutrients at the proper levels.

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