[Susan]

Have you tried the elimination diet where he just eat 1 food for 1 month like kangaroo or chicken or fish Etc then if that meat seems ok then after 1 month add something new here’s a diet for yeasty itchy skin
1cup ground beef human
1/4 cup beef liver or kidney
2 eggs scrambled or boiled
1/2 cup steamed or boiled broccoli
1/2 cup cooked yellow crookneck squash
1/2 cup yogurt
serve meat cooked or raw combined with the cooked vegetables eggs & yogurt, If serving the meat cooked wait for it to cool before stirring in the yogurt..
intstead of the beef mince u can use chicken mince, pork mince or a tin of salmon or mackerel drained..
This was from this book called ‘Raw & Natural Nutrition for dogs’ The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals by Lew Olson PhD… an excellent read explaining all health problems & what to feed dogs, there was more meals for skin problems, I just borrowed it from my Library…its raw & cooked Healthy meals, also a good shampoo is needed like Oatmeal shampoos..

[theBCnut]

Orijen LBP has too high calcium

A percent is a proportion, no matter what volume you are talking about. If something is 1% of X then it does not matter if you are talking about a single kibble or a ton of it, one part out of every one hundred parts will be X.

I know this is a long thread, but you need to read at least the first few pages of it and read the links. That will answer a lot of your questions and will provide you with a list of foods that have appropriate calcium levels. You will have to figure out which of them are available in Canada, I’m afraid. I believe the people who are on here regularly from Canada have small dogs, so don’t follow this thread.

Make sure that you feed your puppy to keep him lean/thin until he is completely mature at around 2 1/2 years old. This helps his joints to develop slowly and helps to keep the stress of carrying too much weight off of them until they are completely formed. Also make sure he doesn’t overdo exercise, which is another big factor in joint development.

Add fish oil. It’s anti inflamatory and the omega 3s in it are easily damaged in kibble.

Good luck.

[MastiffLove]

Hello everyone!

I would love some help in figuring what would be the “best” diet for my dog. Alot of you here seem to have alot of knowledge about this subject and i want to give the best diet to my dog so he will be in top health, shape and growth so he can live a great life without issues due to his diet.

On the 9th of April i am getting my Englsih Mastiff His dad is 220pounds and his mom is around 185 pounds he will be 8 weeks old he is one of the biggest of the litter. I am mentioning this so we can have an idea on an average he could possibly weight once adult and i want to promote growth and size without risking ANY health issues due to exessive or poor feeding.

I’ve been reading for quite awhile and theres so much information to consider that i’m getting overwhelmed with info lolll.

He is currently being fed with First Choice Puppy Medium and Large Breeds (4stars on the reviews here) and i will switch him to Orijen Puppy Large once i feel he feels confortable in his new home (most likely after 3 weeks he’s been here) .

I have read on here that mixing a puppies diet with diferent brands and types of food is a good thing also mixing dry kibbles with canned food is good and/or adding home food to his meals will supplement for whats missing.

But here are my questions:

1.Should i keep him on Orijen after his “switch” has been done until he reaches a certain age/weight or should i right away start “mixing things up” to best his diet?

2. Would any supplements or additives be used as a mixing ingredient to his kibbles?

3. Orijen has a Calcium (min/max) of 1.2/1.5% as wirtten on the 13kg (28.6pnd) bag enough or too much calcium? And could it be clarified, is it per portion served, over the whole bag, in one kiddle alone and such…how does those precentage work? so i can in the furture know what i’m dealing with.

4. Could someone give me a good idea on how to proceed thrue all of this like weeks old you do this, at a certain weight (considering hes not over or under weight and such) you start adding those kind of things…so on and so forth.

I understand theres alot of factors to consider like activity levels, too fat too skinny, etc. and so i will be monitoring his weight and growth weekly thrue his first year so i can spot anything different at a certain event like using a certain type of food or supplement etc. So try to be positive in giving as much detail as you can…i want to learn and i love precise and detailed info.

P.S. I live in Canada Quebec both parents are American living here in case you wish to suggest some food brands please consider i might not have access to it other then by shipping.

Sorry for the loooong post i’m french and i try to be clear on what i’m concerned about.

[Shasta220]

So I’ve mentioned the retired man with the two GSDs who suffer through being on Beneful dry and Alpo/Pedigree canned, right? Well, I’ve previously dropped a bug or two in his ear about some fairly good foods at great prices, and he still thinks that Beneful’s “…wholesome ingredients like wheat, soy, and egg…” are doing his dogs good.

I was pet sitting them the past couple days, and noticed that his giant male, Caesar (he’s 150lbs and is NOWHERE near overweight), had a disgusting hot spot on his thigh. The owner had mentioned that the female, Camile, sometimes gets them, and he just puts some anti-itch spray on. That’s usually enough to make them go away (for a little bit at least…). I decided this time, I will get as “firm” as I will ever get.

I know I’m not making the /best/ suggestion, but virtually any food is better than Beneful, so here’s what I just messaged him:

“…I noticed a huge hot-spot on Caesar’s rear leg. I sprayed it with some of the anti-itch spray.

Not sure how often they get itchy, but Cassy used to get so bad that we had to put a cone and a sweater on her. We switched her to a food without corn, soy, or wheat, and she hasn’t itched since.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com is my favorite website to compare brands and quality. We found a 4star food (Kirkland) for less than $1/lb. ”

What do y’all think? If you were uneducated about dog food, do ya think you’d switch? 😀 and yes, I will warn him about being extra careful for a slow transition if he sounds interested in switching. Gosh I REALLY hope he switches….those poor dogs have dull coats, bad breath, and a NASTY odor 🙁 if he doesn’t get some good nutrition in soon, they’re gonna go downhill FAST (they’re already 7y.o.)

[mountainhound]

There’s really no need to add vitamins if you feed commercial food since it’s already fortified. You can add whole foods like raw eggs or fish oil, but giving synthetic ones like the tablets you see sold at big box stores can lead to vitamin overdose.
there are some holistic premixes that also incorporate whole foods like flaxseed and kelp, I would use those instead.

[Bobby dog]

I feel your pain. My five cats eat me out of house and home, but I just adore and love them. You are much more diligent than me when it comes to proportions, good job! Thinking about it I estimate what each cat is eating in canned food. On average 3 – 5 ounces/day with ¼ cup of dry food each. But if they are begging for more they get it because there are no weight problems and other than my one cat with thyroid issues, everyone is healthy.

I know I always mention Tractor Supply, but if you are near one or happen to be by one at some point, their 4Health cat food is priced the same as Friskies, maybe 3 cents higher, at 49 cents 5.5 ounces or $1.00 for 12+ ounces. They don’t have the 4Health canned cat food on their website. They have their Friskies version (Paws & Claws) pictured with the 4Health logo under it. Just like C4c buys Authority as one of her budget friendly foods, I buy 4Health to throw into my mix. I mix it with the good stuff here and there. They use named meats, no wheat, corn, or soy etc. The only thing I don’t like about it is their recipes include brewers rice or potatoes as ingredients, so it is probably higher in carbs which is why I don’t just feed that brand; it just helps keep costs down and the other ingredients are pretty good in it.

You probably already have done this, since you are the coupon guru, but sometimes on the Fancy Feast and Sheba websites they have coupons/special offers. I got a free sample from Sheba not too long ago. When they are on sale or I have a coupon I buy those brands also.

[Akari_32]

I’ll just let you guys figure out what my hobby (singular LOL) is. I have 3 dogs (ok, two, but I care for the other one, because his “mommy” works out of town 4 days a week), 4 reptiles, 5 aquariums from 6 to 50 gallons (and a major upgrade to a 100 gallon is probably in my near future! Yay!), 2 ponds of 125 and 150 gallons, a few thousand mealworms and darkling beetles (for the reptiles) and I recently acquired a cat. I takes me about an hour an a half to get to bed every night, making sure every one is fed, reptile tanks are clean, everyone has water, and so on. I pretty much go to work or school in the morning, depending on the day, then come home, do some cleaning up after the animals, feed them all and go to bed LOL In between classes, and on my lunch breaks at work, I’m surfing fish and reptile forums (and DFA, obviously), and researching the next brand of food I want to try everyone on next. I pretty much work to feed my pets, and go to school so I can afford to care for them even better later on, as well as care for others (going to school to be a vet!) 🙂

Actually, today, I picked up a book for the first time in years (The Hunger Games. Its pretty good! I’ve already seen both movies though lol)! God I miss reading! I used to play piano and trumpet, but since I no longer am taking piano lessons, or in band, and I can’t read music worth a crap (7 years combined of playing piano and trumpet and I STILL can’t read music??), that’s faded away, but I still can’t resist playing my favorite songs on a store’s keyboard, or breaking out my trumpet when I’m cleaning my closet (I’m horrible at it now LOL) :3

I guess one thing I really love that I don’t get to do often, given where I live and fiances, is hiking. I love being in the mountains, but nooooooo, I live in stupid Florida! lol I do try and get out to the closest state park when I can, but its a 45 minute drive through the old person capitol of the world, and it costs like $5 to get in after that. I don’t mind paying to get in (I practically grew up there, and I love it), but the drive alone is enough to keep me away, especially in season! Dang snow birds can’t go the speed limit….

I do love to travel, though, and every year or two, my mom, grandma and I take a girl trip to somewhere we’ve never been before. I’ve gotten to see a good portion of the US, including Alaska. My friend and I talk about taking a cross country road trip one day, and I’d love to go back to Alaska. It was by far my favorite trip! If I’m ever rich, I’m gunna do tons of traveling 🙂

[InkedMarie]

Alexsandra,
There are limited slip collars, they tighten but only so much so a dog can’t actually choke themselves. Look at yellowsnowdoggear and Lupine.

Laws are different everywhere. Here, off leash is fine as long as the dog is under your control. Your roommate is nuts to think the dog would always listen to him. Not long ago, I read where a trainer had the stupid thought to let their beagle off leash. Dog saw something ran across the street, died when hit by car. I can’t chance it.

[B D]

It’s been a while since anything was posted on this thread, but I couldn’t find anyway to post on a more recent one that referenced this link.

I’m currently talking with Steve Iea about the quality of his pet food. Information on this site does raise some issues to be sure. Mr. Iea emailed me today that there is no 3D/4D meat in their products and all the beef is on the hoof as it comes in to the plant. He did not address my question about whether the meat and poultry as it comes into their plant is USDA inspected & approved for human consumption. Remember that once meat is processed in a non-human facility, it can no longer be called “human grade”. That distinction can be made however prior to the manufacturing process. I have asked for clarification on that and am waiting for a reply.

I would also like to correct something about charcoal as a denaturing products. Some years ago when I was purchasing goat direct from a packing house in Georgia, the USDA inspector found out that it was for dogs and ask the plant to denature it with the purple ink they use to stamp grades on the meat or coat it in charcoal. I had to go to the head USDA guy for the region in Atlanta to get that request withdrawn. The charcoal has nothing to do with covering up smells, it is simply there to make the meat unpalatable for human consumption as far as the USDA is concerned. If packing houses are using it for other purposes, that is not the USDA’s doing.

Cheers,
‘B’

[Shasta220]

Greenies around here aren’t liked too much, I’ll admit. And I will agree with everyone else – they stink, have gross ingredients, and really don’t clean as well as they say.

Try getting on a routine of brushing daily (or at least weekly if you have a difficult pooch), and you can use raw bones as well as other natural chews. I also went to the extremes of a water additive for my oldest girl, but I don’t think that’s nessicary.

I do, however, love Zuke’s Z-ridge bones. The textur is similar to greenies, but they are made of better ingredients like potatoes, fruits, and natural breath help from plants. Plus they seemed to actually work. I broke a big one in half and gave a piece to two of my dogs – by the time they were done, they have /really/ good breath. Greenies? Not so much. I’m not sure how good they are ever since Purina bought them though :/ all I know is the packaging has already changed (I miss the old packages) and prices have skyrocketed… Ugh!

[Michelle J]

We have a 9 year old Siberian Husky who is diabetic and has been for about 2 years. We started out feeding her Hill’s W/D as recommended by the vet we were using at the time. However it was difficult to purchase because you had to have a prescription for it and where we lived we could only buy it at the vet’s so it was not easily accessible. Also we were uncomfortable with the main ingredient being corn. That being said we started searching for a better alternative and started feeding her Hill’s Science Diet Adult Light. She was eating it like it was going out of style. This past weekend we purchased the same kind but she is not eating it. This makes it impossible to be able to give her the correct amount of insulin 2 times a day. I was wondering if it could be spoiled or if there was a recall on it? Is there a use by date on it that I can’t find? Also since there are a lot of you out there that will hopefully read this, can you suggest a better food for diabetic dogs? I would appreciate any help you can give! Thanks!

[Susan]

Hi Shasta, this isnt about where u can buy coconut oil BUT are ur dogs medium to big dogs that love to play with anything, Buy them a full coconut, I read about it on a F/B Staffy site how the lady buys her boy a coconut to play with & he plays for hours trying to bite it open to get the juice & coconut out…a healthy treat & toy..

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi Patrick. I don’t have experience with GSD’s specifically, but I do know that large breed puppies have specific dietary needs. You have to have the correct amount and balance of calcium and phosphorous in the food or they could develop orthopedic issues. Also, you must not overfeed. Slow and steady growth is best. The large breed puppy nutrition thread is a great resource.
/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/
Hound Dog Mom, a very knowledgeable member made a list of foods appropriate for large breed puppy growth. All foods on the list are 4 or 5 stars. See here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit

There are some affordable 4 and 5 star foods that won’t break the bank. You can get the best selection and price by ordering online. I like Chewy.com and Petflow.com. Both ship free with a $49 order. The most affordable foods with grain from the list are: Dr. Tim’s Kinesis, Nutrisource Large Breed Puppy, and Victor Select (Chicken & Rice or Lamb & Rice). The most affordable grain-free is Earthborn Holistic (Meadow Feast or Coastal Catch). Other grain-free foods I would consider are Wellness Core Puppy and Nature’s Variety Instinct Turkey. Grain-free foods are more expensive but you can offset the cost of feeding grain-free by alternating with grain-inclusive foods as long as your dog tolerates both. It’s best to rotate through different foods and not feed the same thing all the time. I hope this helps. Someone else may chime in and give you more specifics about GSD’s specifically.

[Susan]

Thank-you Melissa & Aimee, Patch had a blood test 3 weeks after a flare up, I asked for one, He was on the Metronidzole last December for 2weeks, this stopped the fermenting smell that was coming out of his mouth & stopped the sloppy poos, now his mouth smells normal again, vet gave me a script if I run out.. I cant get the R/C Venison/Potato here is Australia I tried & rung R/C up when he was first ill, we just have the Low Fat, Sensitivity Control, or the Hypoallergengic..Ive tried the Hypoallergenic & the Sensitivity Control & they made him worst. He’s good at the moment he’s playing running, but all he has eaten is his toast for breaky, Ive just boiled a chicken breast, its cooling maybe thats why he’s running around he knows he’s having chicken, Ive tried this before boiled chicken, I’ll try it again & see how he goes this time, I need a kibble with No Fish Oil, no Flaxseed, nothing with oils, I dont think there are any, Oh, when I looked in the supermakets the real cheap kibbles have no fish oil or flax seed etc, maybe that mite work.. I did find a low fat 8% called ‘Opitmum’ invented by a vet here in Australia but it has Chicken By-Products, everytime I read the ingredients I put it back…But being a rescue dog I’d say he was feed a real crap diet, cheap diet… Ive never given him the supermarket kibbles, he mite do better on mostly grains he does good on toast..just gave him his chicken so far no pain yet or licking… I never gave him his Zantac either..How much chicken do I feed a 17kilo dog, I dont want him losing weight.

[losul]

Sorry about the delayed responses.

InkedMarie, Thanks for posting. I did find the link you provided helpful. Helped me to realize more, that while it is a really scary and serious thing, but that there is a difference between being HW positive and lower levels of worms and having significant HW disease. It also got me to thinking more about using some supportive supplements.

Shawna, again, very helpful links, not just about timing for seasonal HW preventatives, but also other things. Thank you. I’ve never posted a pic of Turbo yet, but it’s on my to do list as soon as I get caught up on things. Because of the cumulative effects, I guess the advantage multi could be started a little earlier than the others and stopped earlier for using seasonal HWP. But it’s also because of those cumulative effects and the added and unwanted flea killer, that I doubt I will use for HWP, beyond using for treatment. I also noted in your second link that advantage multi is not often even used during treatment.

I’m also thinking now that it is still senseless for me to give Turbo HWP’s year round. (once he is HW free). Even if I up the dosage months to 9 or 10 months, a break of 2 or 3 months from it, is better than no break, and shouldn’t be any risk of infection anyway during the coldest months.

Aimee, I agree 100% with your critical thinking in the the case of Mr. Piggy/Dr. Falconer.
Not so sure either about his “homeopathic” remedies, i.e. sulphur, calcarea carbonica, graphites (is that actually given internally?)

I also got to reading some other alternative treatments elsewhere such as black walnut extract, wormwood, etc. Some of those seem would be as/or more so, toxic as conventional drug treatments. But I think I will start using some garlic.

Update: Turbo had his X-rays Wednesday. The vet went over them with me, and in general thought they looked pretty good. He didn’t see anything at that time that would cause him to downgrade him from class 1 to class 2. Although he did have some things he wanted the visiting radiologist to look at and review (the heart) when he comes in again, I think on April 8. The lungs looked mostly pretty clear and pulmonary arteries he thought looked pretty good. I’m definitely leaning towards a slower kill protocol (rather than the harsh immiticide, steroids, and painkillers, and the vet seems fine with that, although he is still adamant about continuing with the Advantage multi, rather than ivermectin, me I’m not entirely sure Advantage multi will be as effective as ivermectin on fully mature worms, according to what I have read. Also if not going with immiticide, he wants to get going on the doxycycline sooner. He is saying just 2 weeks of doxy. Most of what i read says 4 weeks, or pulsing it. I also told him I had a 2nd HW test done that indicated low antigen, and that that vet thought it indicated lower worm load.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[DogFoodie]

I would definitely take it back also. If it were one small bag that I’d get rid of quickly, I might go ahead and feed it (assuming that it looked and smelled OK and my dogs gave it their ultimate approval), but you’re talking about 171 pounds of food here!

There is a way to calculate the manufacture date based on the expiration date and the estimated shelf life of the product. So, for those that have a shelf life of 18 months that are three months past their expiration date, you’re talking about food that was manufactured close to two years ago! Even sealed, in the bag, fats can go rancid when something is that old. What if it wasn’t stored properly at the store, that can decrease even the 18 month shelf life.

I started accumulating a little too much kibble, so I made a spreadsheet of everything I had on hand ordered by expiration date so that it can be used well prior to then. I’m sorry that I’ve accumulated what I have because it should be the goal to buy and use the freshest food possible.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_12/features/Fats-Chance_20658-1.html

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/17_2/features/five-common-mistakes-buying-feeding-dry-food_20910-1.html

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_10/features/Dog-Food-Expiring_15658-1.html

[pfeiner]

OK – so have been doing some reading etc. about RMB and feeding to my two Labs who presently eat a commercial raw diet. I am looking to start making my own and am fearful of smaller RMB. They eat beef shank/marrow bones regularly with no issue – the older boy is more aggressive w his bones (typical Lab) and the pup is more mellow with his. So… are chicken & turkey necks safe for Labs? What about chicken feet – found them at a market the other day. I had read somewhere that I should avoid wings as they are too small. My market often times has frozen organic chicken bones. Can I feed them? I guess Thanks loads for your feedback!!

[Akari_32]

He’s not going to the litter box *often* but when he does visit, it’s usually just a small amount, about 2 inches across, and it’s bloody (not bad, but there’s a pink tinge). I noticed a few days ago, after being locked in the bathroom, that his spot on the counter was peppered with blood, but since it was literally all over the counter in teeny tiny spots, I figured he broke a claw off, or scratched himself, or something. It was the next day or later that day that I found only a small amount of pee in the box with some red in it for the first time. I’ve also been reading that his behavior could be from a UTI (he’s naughty!), but he’s also adjusting to a new life, so I can’t say for sure. His pee also has a strong smell to it, too. Like, a sweaty, BO, sort of smell. But for all I know, male cats could just smell like that anyways. He doesn’t seem to be uncomfortable, though.

[Diana R]

Thanks for your responses. I can’t afford the vet bills right now. She is getting better everyday since I have quit the Dinovite. Right now she is out in the yard and barking, which is a good sign. I think I read where someone else’s dog also got the congestion after they started the Dinovite. I think all the weight she has put on is what is causing the listlessness and trouble breathing. She is a smaller framed dog so this extra weight is strain on her body.

[andrew b]

So I have a Staffy who is almost 18 months. She has already been allergy tested, and on a scale of 0-4 scored a 2 on numerous things, different types of grasses/weeds, dust and so on, with yeast also registering. We have also done a food trial prior to intradermal testing with Royal Canin HP and her itching really never got better on it. The main issue is she scratches herself bloody. Her neck, under her arms, her face. It’s a sin. We use Temaril-P when needed and it does help, have tried Atopica which didn’t work at all, have tried a new medication called Apoquel that didn’t work at all. Usually when she’s extremely bad(she was at the vet Tuesday, she sees a dermatologist at UPenn), she comes back positive for a yeast infection on her skin. She also started immunotherapy 5 months ago.

The worst of foods(on a relative scale) she has eaten would be Taste of the Wild as a puppy, and when the itching started around 4 months, we have tried, all for nearly 2 month periods, Earthborn, Acana, Nature’s Variety LID and now back to Earthborn since it doesn’t seem to matter.

Where am I going with all of this? Before I fully delve into trying a raw or cooked diet and seeing if it helps, should I just try the lowest carbohydrate food I can find to try and cut down on the yeast issues? If this doesn’t work, I am going either raw, freeze dried or cooked at the end of May. I was going to try Brothers Complete Allergy Formula but I’ve read it’s fairly high in carbs. Would I be better going with something that is 25% or so carbohydrates based on this site’s calorie weighted analysis, perhaps Orijen or Nature’s Variety Raw Boost, or something else?

We’ve tried so much…supplements, oils, she gets Phytovet CK baths 2-3x a week, and it doesn’t improve unless she’s on Temaril and we obviously don’t want that, but when she’s bleeding and will scratch herself for minutes straight unless you stop her, you have no choice.

Any ideas welcome, especially food related. Thanks all, love the site, been lurkin forever.

[Akari_32]

He ticked me off last night to the point where I locked him in the bathroom for the night, and had my sister lock him up today when she left for the day (I left at 6:30 this morning for work, but let him out while I got ready). He’s got so much pent up energy because he’s used to roaming in the woods. He won’t play with his toys (catnip mice, and those stretchy, bouncy figure 8 shaped things that smell like catnip), but he does like Bentleys bell on the front door, and shoe strings. Since we’re now apparently trying the cat out, I’ll (besides name him lol) buy him some stringy toys that I can fling around and play with him with. Hopefully I can tire him out enough to keep him out of trouble.

The biggest thing with him is keeping him out of the blinds. I’m home alone most of the week, and our neighborhood sucks. I won’t open the blinds most of the time, not even when moms home. I don’t want no druggies knowing I’m here by my self all week. But I do understand that windows are like TV for cats, and he loves getting up in there and laying in the sill, even if he’s not looking outside. I may run the idea of keeping the spare bedroom gated off so the dog can’t get in there, in stead of keeping the door completely closed, and keeping his litter box and such in there, and keeping just enough of the blinds open that he can get in and out of them ( the ones in there are vertical hanging blinds, much more suited for naughty little cats trying to be in the windows). My sister is here on spring break and has her cat in there right now, but that’s only until Sunday… Hmmm…

[theBCnut]

Hookworms can cause bloody stools, whipworms can cause pale nasty smelling soft stools. The ivermectin in Heartgard only affects certain types of worms, the others have developed resistance to it, same with some of the regular wormers. It is important that you actually know what you are deworming for so that you use the right product.

There are a few things that fecal floats are not good at detecting, so once a year I have a fecal sent to the lab for analysis. It costs around $20. I haven’t needed one of my dogs wormed in several years, except for new puppies with roundworms. However, one of my cats needs deworming regularly. She has feline herpes and so already has a challenged immune system.

[Dori]

I’m so happy to hear that Bruno is on the mend. As soon as you seen that Bruno is back to normal you can start reintroducing the stuff you were adding to his diet. I would start slowly just as you did in the beginning and let him adjust to additives one at a time. Just not too much too soon. Before you know it he’ll be back to enjoying everything the way he was before. Just make sure all the chews are USA and nothing from China (re the fine print). Sometimes there’s like a big american flag on the front only to read in the fine print that it was packaged in the USA but ingredients are from China. Again, happy Bruno’s getting better.

[Susan]

Its just that everytime Ive wormed my dog he gets diarrhea thru the night & is not well the next day, cause we walk everywhere & go to dogs parks vets say I should worm him every 3 months but this time the vet said that we will just do a float test instead, its been 5 month now & I havn’t wormed him, there’s no worms in his poo but Ive read that I think its the hook or whip worm u cant see them unless under a micro scope..The vet said that Milbemax is a milder wormer we’ll try that one next time..

[InkedMarie]

Aquarian: well, my reasoning is sometimes when a dog is used to a lower quality food and go right to five star, it doesn’t always sit well. I frequently read where dogs go that route, get sick & owners throw their hands up, saying give star food isn’t so good.

The money is an issue, now that you mention it. I’ve fed food that sells for $78 +/- and ground raw that I don’t want to calculate lol; I can’t imagine paying $25 a bag and going up to even $45-50 a bag. It’d be sticker shock!

[Shasta220]

Some of you might remember, but a while ago I started a thread on here asking for kind ways to persuade an owner that Beneful’s “…wholesome ingredients like soy, corn, and real meat…” Aren’t as “wholesome” as he thinks. I still have been unable to convince him, and every time I pet sit for him, I’m stuck giving his poor pooches the garbage.

Well, I just went over for a “meet n greet” of a new client with a Lab pup. They’re both retired and have a beautiful home, and seem to take wonderful care of their pets. I was gonna assume they’d have at least a fair-quality feed store-type food, but of course not! They had Beneful for their 8wk old puppy. I’m going to take care of it for 2wks next month – gosh I don’t know how I’ll survive, feeding that puppy such trash! I’m half tempted to feed the pup my own food, as it’s gold compared to Beneful (then again, about anything is!).

Anyway, I’ll be dropping a bug or two in those owners’ ears as well, trying to tell em: just because Beneful is one of the more expensive Walmart foods around here, definitely doesn’t make it the best…

Sorry for the random vent. If anyone else wants to pitch in with their Beneful (or other junky food) story, feel free LOL! I understand giving lower quality food because you simply can’t afford more, but seriously! I buy 4 star food that is nearly HALF the cost of that junk! (And this family definitely doesn’t seem to be concerned about price…)

[banditsmom]

Hi I am a newbie here who has learned a real lot about dog nutrition by reading this site. Much more than I thought I would. I’m very happy about it.
I have 5 small dogs and I’ve decided that the youngest one,who is a 2 yo LH Chihuahua is allergic to chicken. She’s been itching and licking and biting at her paws. Chicken is the only thing she has had consistently in her diet, probably 5 days a week. I always put a little meat on top of their canned and it’s usually chicken. She gets a variety now. I used to feed them exclusively Merrick ( a lot of the chicken ones) but for the past 3 months I’ve used different brands and protein. As it turns out these are all 4 or 5 star foods on here.
Thing is, I need to find a good rotatation of foods without any chicken ingredients for the 5 of them. Of course they’re picky…
I’ve been trying different foods and so far I have Trippet original and Wellness turkey stews.
Reading here about the manufacturing is scary. I started looking for companies who manufacture their own and I found Nutrisource. They have 4.5 stars on here. ( would put in a link but I don’t know how). They also are not on the recall list on here.
Anyway, I’m interested in their Nutrisource Lamb and also their Pure Vita and Natural Planet Organics foods. Neither one of those canned foods are rated here so I really need opinions. They all look to me like they have very high fat contents.
For Pure Vita turkey stew the guaranteed analysis is pro 8.5% fat 5.5% fiber 1.5% moisture 82% they also list ash which is max 1.9%. For Nat. Planet turkey it is pro 10% fat 8% fiber 1.5% and moisture 78%. There is the Nutrisource lamb and rice it is pro 9% fat 8% fiber 1.5% and moisture 78%.
Sorry this is so long but I don’t want to make mistakes. Your opinions on this would really be appreciated.
Other foods I’m looking at are Ziwi Peak, Addiction and Natures Logic. Thanks

[losul]

Hi Patty, Thank you for the info, very helpful. and also good to know about the liver values.

Looking back at records and thinking clearer now, you could be right, I think there could be a window of chance he could have been infected prior to adoption. I have records from the shelter where I adopted, they are pretty sketchy, but I believe he was there twice and I think briefly at another shelter, which I have no records for. The records from them that I have go back to Dec., 2011, but on 8/24/2012, they show exam, heartworm negative, pyrental, mchip. 8/31/2012 HWP given. This was the only time on the shelters records where HWP was given. There was a prior HW test done on 12/09/2011, but no mention of HWP between then and 8/24/12. Seems kind of strange now that the first HWP given to him at the shelter was suddenly 5 days before we adopted. We adopted on 9/5/1012. The adoption came with a complimentary exam and fecal from the shelter’s attending veterinarian which we used on 9/12. They sold us numerous things including 12 doses of heartguard +. I didn’t like the vet, very absent-minded to put it lightly, I had to keep reminding her we still needed the fecal, and she even seemed afraid to touch Turbo, barely did. I’m pretty sure I finished 2012 with 2 more (2/3) doses. I think after 2012 season was done was when i refrigerated it. I was giving him 2/3 of the chew and then putting the leftover 1/3 in a baggie, and using with an additional 1/3 the next time, that remaining 2/3 was used for the next dose, etc.

About this same time last year he had a HW check with his rabies vaccination, before we later resumed with HWP. I didn’t even know until recently, that if giving seasonally, it should be started 1 month before the season starts. I was under the impression until recently, that the weather had to stay above 57 degress for like 10 consequtitive days, and then I thought there was a 30 day window of time after that. And I remembered with past dogs, we’d get a 6 dose supply and it would last the season.

I’ll likely never know 100%, but for me, there’s just too much I did wrong. At the very least, i should have been throwing away the leftover 1/3’s, reading the package thoroughly, and I should have gotten myself better informed. I’m pretty sure this experience wouldn’t ever happen in most cases, given a more proper protocol than what I did.

Yes i think too Xrays first, and then I’ll take it from there whether to get ultrasound also, and hopefully help determine a more exact course of action. I might have to wait for awhile for results on that. They have a pro radiologist come in to read them, but generally only comes in once a month, sometimes more often. I could get a quicker result, but with additional cost. The timing of this going on with other circumstances currently at hand, unfortunately, I’m going to have to at least be mindful of the ongoing/upcoming expenses.

THNX again Patty.

Shawna:
I knew you fostered BT’s, but I had no idea that you had a mix of the same sort as Turbo! I would luv to see pics of your little “turd”. Getting pics on my computer and then figuring out what to do with them from there, has long been on my “to do” list. I’m so technology deficient, I’m such a procrastinator, and I’ve so many things backed already up on that list, but I intend to get around to it.

That’s so funny the way you describe the “monster”. Turbo is the quirkiest dog I’ve ever met. He very oftentimes tries to communicate things, and many times still, I’m left scratching my head as to exactly what it is.. And sometimes his manners are such that I wonder if he wasn’t one that was taken too quickly from his Mama and siblings, before learning proper manners, and the consequences of not using good manners. I can see where he has been probably been misunderstood for much of his prior life. The first couple days we had him, i was second guessing myself some, and we nearly didn’t even take him to start with. But within a few days, I knew he was right for us. I could go on and on, but I absolutely must get busy this weekend, and the days following, doing things that are already so backed up.

Thnx again Shawna.

Turbo has noticeably been drinking more water and urinating more, this past week. I always thought he never drank enough, and I’ve always added some water to his kibble portions. I don’t think I’d ever seen him pee for more than 10 or 15 seconds at a time at the most, but the other day I think he must have peed for 45 seconds straight, and that was midday. I guess the advantage multi could cause that. Still no more trembling episodes and still haven’t a clue about what happened with that. might be a few days before I can write again.

[theBCnut]

My old lady would only eat The cheap ones too, mostly Purina indoor cat. I finally figured out, from something I read, how to switch her food. I always start out by adding about 3 pieces of the new food to her old food for a few days. Then I add 10% for a few days. Then I can go to adding 25%, 50%, 75%, and all new food. But everytime I have to start out with just a very few pieces.

I’ve never figured out how to post pictures here. Sandy knows.

[freshley]

I have the normal chain stores (petco, petsmart & petvalue)(live in PA).
I had my previous dog on Canidae and he’s on Wellness puppy now. I had read that Canidae is being produced by diamond but they opened their new plant so they are now making some of it in their plant now.

I was going to try Solid Gold or taste of the wild but they are made by diamond. I was then thinking of chicken soup for dog lover as it’s reasonably priced and has a 4 star rating but the reviews from people about it are not very good.
I was going to try blue buffalo but there was a rumor that they were being bought by Proctor and Gamble who also has had issues with recalls.

[Shawna]

Hi Patty,

Dori actually contacted them and was told this
“Hi losul and Shawna, I just spoke with tech support at Merial makers of Heartgard and was told that the ENTIRE dose must be given. You cannot split in half because they can not guarantee it’s efficacy. It is suggested that you not do that.”

Of course they would not suggest splitting doses for reasons other than efficacy. I just remember reading somewhere that to use a compounding pharmacy versus splitting the drug if pup is at the low end of dosing..

I did a quick google search and Mary Straus agrees with you and with Dori. “The issue of splitting heartworm pills comes up frequently. I have spoken to representatives from Merial (maker of Heartgard) and Novartis (maker of Interceptor). Both said that the active ingredients are mixed into their products before the pills are formed, and therefore should be evenly distributed (though they cannot guarantee this). However, both manufacturers advise against pill splitting.”

So maybe not splitting is just a precautionary recommendation. In which case it is unlikely the splitting would have been an issue.

[theBCnut]

If Turbo was tested within 6 months of getting him and this is the first time since then that he was tested, I would strongly suspect that he already had heartworms but was not far enough along to test positive. Many, many times a year, we got dogs in that had come from the shelter and had tested negative, but 8 months later they turned out to be positive after all.

I corresponded with someone who claimed to work at the plant where Heartgard was made. They said that the ivermectin and the meat paste carrier are mixed in a vat then pressed into molds of the appropriate size. That tells me that other than not giving enough or allowing air to spoil the meds, splitting should not be a problem. Example, if I have a 35 lb dog and a 15 lb dog, I should be able to split a chew for a 60 lb dog into thirds and give one dog 1/3 and the other dog 2/3 and it should be fine as long as I can split them accurately. I should not save some for the next month though, because the drugs could oxidize. The vet and the company make more if I have to buy a pack of the appropriate size for each and since it is a prescription drug, the laws don’t allow sharing anyways, but trimming off excess should not make the whole dose ineffective. My dogs weigh 42 lbs and usually I have to buy drugs for 60 lbs. Trimming off 1/4 should still leave enough drug for a 45 lb dog, but if it is a drug that comes in sealed pods/blister packs, I assume that it should be kept away from oxygen until use.

[Shawna]

Patty — I very much appreciate your natural and holistic approach combined with your schooling and hands on experience!!!!

Losul — I agree with Patty.. This infection could be quite old, even predating you adopting Turbo. Prior to this, have you had Turbo heartworm tested since getting him? Even if he got them under your watch — I think blaming yourself is a stretch.. How many of us didn’t know about the potential issues with refrigeration? I certainly didn’t. And many people read that you split the dose and no mention of problems. Even when I mentioned it, I wasn’t 100% certain. Just a vague memory.. And if heartworm in your area are ivermectin resistant, well you certainly can’t blame yourself for that!!

I had a foster puppy that was 1/2 Boston Terrier and also definitely had some bully in him.. Everyone who saw him thought pitty, especially Staffordshire. He came to me, with his mommy, when he was only 4 days old. His eyes were still shut.. He was such a little monster, so head strong and SO smart. He was the only foster dog that escaped the 4×4 enclosure I made for them (2×4’s and plastic chicken wire). In the enclosure I had an open crate, water bowl, potty pad, blanket etc. Came home one afternoon to find him terrorizing the other dogs in my bedroom with a little hole large enough for his little body in the plastic wire.. Little turd!!! I don’t have any good pics of the little guy with me but I’m going to post a not so good one on the blog here in a sec. Full grown my little guy is about 30 pounds too.. Weird huh…

[theBCnut]

Hi Losul

Several things
The bloodwork is exactly where I would expect it to be and the most important thing is those liver enzymes. He should have no problem with treatment, since his liver function is normal.

I can’t find the thread that I’m looking for on another site, but the consensus was that you should wait 3 days after ivermectin to start milk thistle, no opinion on others because it was specifically a thread about using ivermectin that turned into a thread about using milk thistle.

The heartworm infection still could have occured before you got Turbo depending on when the heartworm tests actually took place and what kind of tests they were.

The load should be light because you/your vet are seeing no other signs. Ultrasound would certainly be more diagnostic as far as being able to see the worms and whether they are causing a heart murmur(if your vet didn’t hear one), enlarging of one side of the heart, filling the pulmonary artery, etc. only if they have high quality, up to date equipment and are good at interpreting what they see.

If the xray looks normal, then I probably wouldn’t do an ultrasound, and I would assume a light load of worms. But if the xray showed any changes, I would want the ultrasound too.

[losul]

Hi Dori, I’m doing a little better, thnx, and Turbo’s O.K.

My agony peaked when the hard realization came that it was my fault, I already pretty much knew it, but I think it helped to finally get it out. It’s been a little more uphill now.

The fleas, i don’t know what to say. You’re situation with the fleas/insects in the area, and having several dogs is different than mine. Shawna and the others could suggest some alternatives vs. using chemicals, if you can or want to go that route. I don’t really know what I would do for sure in your situation.

I don’t use anything on turbo at all, haven’t had any problem with them here. I didn’t intend to use anything on him at all, but he’s already got insecticide on, or in him, now from the advantage, and I hate it that fact. I can’t really see keeping him on this very long because of that. I always figured if fleas become a problem here, I would only deal with them then, but not before. I know we have/had chiggers in the yard, several years ago, I had a bout with them, itching badly for several weeks. Never had a problem though on Turbo knock on wood. We have alot of ticks here, but again i don’t use anything on Turbo except some body checks, and I wasn’t always diligent about it. I only found I think 2 crawling ticks on Turbo this past season, until that last embedded one him that somehow survived through several bouts with hard frosts and cold weather, and I didn’t find until after it had been feeding for several days. I found more ticks than that on myself, seriously. Maybe some of them were crawling off Turbo and on to me. I hate it that he got worms, and now I hate that i have to give him all these harsh chemicals to try to make them go away. I think Turbo is young and healthy enough to come through it, but I still worry about damages and longer term consequences.

X-rays are set up for next week, and I agree, they will definitely be worth having done.

Hang in there with Katie, i think your determination will get it all figured out!

[losul]

Update; There is no noticeable greasiness or anything remaining on Turbo’s fur. can’t tell it was there.

Having some difficulty taking out on leash. yesterday the ice was thawing and I didn’t get more than a few steps in the yard, one foot went one way the other the other way. Muddy mess. Turbo amused I think.

Turbo is normally calm in the house, but when i get the collar and/or leash he gets way overexited. Today especially. Another good reason to get X-rays to try to help determine his current exercise restriction neccesity.

Th vet called me this evening, I told him about what Merial had told Dori. We agreed X-rays could be helpful, will call and set up tommorrow.

I told him that I had already received a rabies vaccination reminder in the mail from them. He reiterated not to worry, they have several dogs that they refuse to vaccinate even when the owner wants it done.

That’s it for now.

[Jackie B]

Cats, especially males, need plenty of wet food. As people have already stated. If I was able to have a cat, I would seek out a brand like WildKitty where you can make your own raw at home. I feel like it is the optimum food for cats. That being said, if you want to do kibble and supplement with canned, any can is better than none. But a canned food without red-flag ingredients (same standard as for dogs) would be my pick.

A friend of mine who fosters many cats and kittens says Authority is her budget-friendly but still quality canned food choice.

Also, you can get a pet watering fountain. Cats love them. I have a CatMate brand one for my dog.

[losul]

Hello again Dori.

I wouldn’t EVER want to discourage milk thistle use in totality. I really do believe in it’s potent powers to protect and even help heal the liver. But it’s also because of these potent powers I think awareness/caution is warranted, and especially in regards to possible interactions with other drugs/botanicals, and under certain other circumstances.

I think the last time I looked into this, was well over a year ago. The bookmarks I had on it died with my last computer. It’s hard to get detailed and reliable info from anywhere but the manufacturers, as to actual expected half lives, exactly how the drugs are metabolized, etc. and am having difficulty getting that reliable info again. It’s also hard to get reliable studies on various herbs and supplements,

Going by other resources I think it can be established that ivermectin is primarily metabolized by CYP3A4 in the liver, and as far as I’m concerned, for me, there is enough evidence that milk thistle does inhibit CYP3A4, even though there are few studies as to exactly what extent, dosage rates, potency hard to be determined etc. on milk thistle or almost other botanicals/herb. Most sites I’ve seen, classify milk thistle as a CYP3A4 inhibitor of undefined potency, which would be usually be the case in unregulated and essentially non-standardized supplements. That study referenced in the link i posted the other day, implies relatively high inhibiting potency for milk thistle.

http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/mthistle.html

Not sure exactly how milbemycin, moxidectin, is metabolized, but I would have to assume it’s much the same way as ivermectin, as they are all in the same class of drugs. Apparently ivermectin has a longer longer half life in dogs than i recalled, and milbemycin a little longer than ivermectin. But these, when given in oral dosages, are at least predictable as to their peak plasma concentrations, especially when given without a meal, it’s within hours. Because of the slowed release method of topical moxidectin, peak concentration times for that cannot reliably be determined, I’ve read anywhere between 8 to 21 days after dosage. I would have liked to have incorporated milk thistle into Turbo’s regimen at some point, but as of now, I don’t see how i can confidently do that using moxidectin, and what i don’t know yet about moxidectin. Because all these HWP’s are in the same class of drugs, for now I have to assume they are metablized much in the same way as ivermectin.

If a medication has an expected half life of 24 hours, it doesn’t mean the medication will be cleared in 48 hours. It means that every 24 hours the remaining plasma concentration should be expected to be divided by 2.

I suspect that most advice for milk thistle is for very low dosage, only once a day, and after a reasonably safe time period, at least a day or two after HWP administration? Given in that way, I wouldn’t think there would be significant alterations in elimination time or efficacy, However, I wouldn’t listen to any advice that says to give it before, concurrently with, or immediately after any HWP. Nor any loading up on dosage of it. Additional precautions should be dogs with the defective/suspected defective MDR1 gene, which are already much more susceptible to these drugs crossing the blood/brain barrier, dogs on certain other drugs, or are being given high doses of ivermectin, or the others.

“Dogs with defects in the P-glycoprotein gene (MDR1) can be severely poisoned by ivermectin.”
“Since drugs that inhibit CYP3A4 enzymes often also inhibit P-glycoprotein transport, the risk of increased absorption past the blood-brain barrier exists when ivermectin is administered along with other CYP3A4 inhibitors. These drugs include statins, HIV protease inhibitors, many calcium channel blockers, and glucocorticoids such as dexamethasone, lidocaine, and the benzodiazepines.[21]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin

Note: I think ivermectin and other like drugs given in the low dosages as given normally for heartworm protection, are usually considered safe for dogs with the defective MDR1 gene, unless other factors come into play.

The only time I would ever consider loading up on milk thistle for a dog is if poisonous mushroom ingestion is strongly suspected or in acute aflatoxin poisoning. In which case, high dosages could save the dogs liver and it’s life.

[Cyndi]

From what I know, you definitely need to get “taurine” in her. I believe that’s what it is that cat’s can suffer a deficiency from. There are quite a few reviews I’ve read on Hare Today, where I get my raw meat for my dog, from people who feed their cats a raw diet. They sell mice, and baby chicks and whole sardines and stuff. You might want to look into that…

Good luck! 🙂

*Edit* & Hare Today does sell a Taurine supplement.

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=291

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Cyndi.

[Akari_32]

He doesn’t seem at all like the type to bolt out an open door. Someone dumped this cat, I’m sure of it. He’s shy and skittish, but boy can be get in to trouble! He escaped from the bathroom, then after a while jumped the step-over gate in the hallway. I figured I’d just let him roam the house. He’s already been climbing all over the kitchen table, tried to jump on both reptile tanks in the living room, found the blinds on the back door… Lol

He seems very healthy. I checked his teeth, and they looks great, his coat is solid, he’s super soft. So I’m really worried about him giving the dogs anything. I’ve got him locked in the bathroom for the night, though, and I’ll lock him in there when I go to work tomorrow. He can’t be trusted alone just yet, it seems LOL

The good news is, he knows what to do in the litter box! Thank god lol that would be terrible if he didn’t.

He’s starving, it seems, so I think at this point he’ll anything. He did end up going back for that dry food. And he got into moms room and under black hole of a bed, so I had to lure him out with even more canned food. He’s eaten two tablespoons of Friskies and about 1/8 cup (less, really) of the Max Cat. And I saw poop and pee in his litter box when I went In the bathroom to get him to stop clawing on the door lol Turns out, the litter I bought is NOT clumping. I flushed the poop down the toilet, but can’t do anything about the pee. That’s ok, I guess. I’ll buy better litter later. I bought everything but the Innova, EVO and Max Cat at the dollar store. Can’t expect much from dollar store cat litter LOL But his bowls are really cute! :p

Another friend of mine and I have decided that if I can’t keep the cat (it’s up to mom, in the end, after all), that she will take him. They’ve got another cat, and they should get along great.

[Akari_32]

This has got to be worlds sweetest cat! He just wants to petted and rubbed and loved on. He’s not pushy about it, though. He’s so gentle. I tried to lock him in the back room with a baby gate, but he let himself out while I was preparing his food lol there a step over style baby gate in the opening of the hallway, and I think the only thing keeping him from jumping it is the dogs lol He’s already made himself at home in my sisters empty room (probably because it smells like Chester, her cat), so I just closed the bathroom and let him be. I happened to buy a little bed at goodwill today for Bentley, but this cat is freaking huge, so I’ll give it him LOL He’s now laying the doorway of the bedroom, where he can see me. He goes between napping, and just watching me. It’s pretty cute :3

Here’s some pictures of him! He must be a Maine coon mix. He’s very well built!

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/13BB068A-DA57-4E25-9CC4-EABAF43B9A11_zps0eou7ahm.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/E59D56BA-672F-47CA-A89B-B0E593994C05_zpstu3f5xg0.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/5DFA0F18-A97C-48AA-9DDB-25E9BDA13C83_zps24xuqkfh.jpg

In the last pic, I was texting the girl that gave him to me, instead of petting him, so he plopped down at my feet and stared at me LOL

[pugmomsandy]

I’m sure Darwin’s is a great product and several people here use it. But with 2 large dogs you might check into feeding prey model for some meals such as feeding a whole chicken (including the feet and gizzards, liver and neck). Not every single meal is required to be complete and balanced. 20% or less can be unbalanced. There is a large raw forum at dogforums dot com and it has a very big “raw feeding pictures thread”. Also check out preymodelraw dot com. I also use a recipe book, “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” which is easy to follow and comes with a recipe to make a vitamin mix. You’d save a lot of money by buying bulk or family packs of ground beef or chicken and even bone-in pork chops. And they go on sale when it’s their sell-by dates. I also find whole raw sardines at the ethnic grocery store for $1.19/lb on sale. This is one meal for my dog and he only needs one sardine which is around 3 oz. the sardines come in various sizes. Another option is buying your own meat and using a premix.

[losul]

Thnx Shawna, you bring up very good points. I too would think that all or most of any infectious larvae would have already transformed into adults based upon the latest possible date(s) of infection. But I wonder if some of the migrating larvae take longer to mature than others? I can’t possibly see how Turbo could have been infected after the last heartguard was given, it got cold here early, already had some hard freezes, and I don’t think the temp again even barely hit the 50’s let alone 60 for more than a day or 2 past the date of his last HWP dose. But then I didn’t dream I would ever find a tick on his ear in early November either. Of course If I only knew then what i know now..

I think probably why the A.H.S. advised if giving seasonal to go 3 months past last possible transmission date, and 1 month before, is because of Dr. Blagburn’s studies of possible resistance to HWP’s. If one were to do that, it would be about 9 or 10 months anyway here, almost year round. it’s hard to tell what’s true, these preventatives are big moneymakers for the pharmas, and of course ivermectin has been off patent (generics) for awhile. But for me, after this is cleared, it will be necessary to err on the side of overcaution going forward.

It was explained to me that one reason they want to give the HWP first for a couple of months is because of the gap between what the HWP will kill and and what the adulticide will kill. Evidently some stages are not susceptible to either the adulticide or the HWP. The time is supposed to allow those stages that are in the gap, time to get vulnerable to the adulticide. Otherwise new adults could still move in after the older ones die.

I didn’t miss any doses, it was every 35 days, the actual dose dates are all marked on my calendars but I am trying to find more about the failure. I believe it’s most likely my failure, I can’t blame anything else. I have a case number with Merial, which they told me to have my vet call them with the case I.D. and he could then speak to their vet. All Merial would tell me is that they couldn’t guarantee it’s efficacy if refrigerated. I forget to ask or remind my vet about this the last time I talked to him.

I went ahead and applied the multi this morning after talking to them, about 4 hours ago. No reaction thus far. They assured my that if I change my mind on the HWP used, I could still do that after 30 days. I still intend to try to seek another HW test at least and/or a second opinion. I believe I might go ahead with X-rays, and I wonder why they also didn’t do a urinalysis. The extent, how long, how many, etc. it’s all questions that bear heavy on my mind, although these things may not even be able to really reveal. If I knew it were just a minor infection, it would be easier to bear and decide the course, I don’t know if he had multiple infections throughout last season, if he had minimal or any protection at all, or what.

Thnx Shawna.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[Dori]

I don’t use Heartgard so I’m not sure weather it says it on the box or not. If it doesn’t, it certainly should as they were so adamant not to refrigerate unless they expect the Vet to tell you but, really, it would be their responsibility. As i said, I don’t use the product so maybe it is on the box in tiny print. I use Sentinel and after Losul’s tragic story with Turbo I will be doing year round treatment. I live in Atlanta and the weather is always a little dicey here in this part of Georgia. Yesterday it reached 76 degrees in the afternoon and today’s high will be 46. I was only treating during the hotter months but now I’m a bit freaked out about putting their health in the hands of my ability to predict the weather or keep track of it moment to moment. From what you said in some earlier post, I think it was you, the treatment for Heartworms seems more toxic and scary if not the same as giving year round Sentinel. My guys are too small (as are yours I believe) to withstand treatment if they actually got heart worms. My biggest is 8 lbs. and healthy, yes, but she was 14 years old last September so she’s not a great candidate for major heart worm infestation or the treatment for even low infestation. I don’t like the idea and of course will worry about giving them the Sentinel year round but I will do that. Actually I gave the a dose the morning after I read Losul’s original post on this Forum. I do give Milk Thistle for seven days after the dose.

[Dori]

This is from the Heartgard website as to administration. Shawna, I believe you are correct in that the entire pill must be given. From what I’m reading the site says that you should continue to give Heargard for one (1) month not 3 after heart worm season ends.

ADMINISTRATION: Remove only one chewable at a time from the foil-backed blister card. Return the card with the remaining chewables to its box to protect the product from light. Because most dogs find HEARTGARD Plus palatable, the product can be offered to the dog by hand. Alternatively, it may be added intact to a small amount of dog food.The chewable should be administered in a manner that encourages the dog to chew, rather than to swallow without chewing. Chewables may be broken into pieces and fed to dogs that normally swallow treats whole.
Care should be taken that the dog consumes the complete dose, and treated animals should be observed for a few minutes after administration to ensure that part of the dose is not lost or rejected. If it is suspected that any of the dose has been lost, redosing is recommended.
HEARTGARD Plus should be given at monthly intervals during the period of the year when mosquitoes (vectors), potentially carrying infective heartworm larvae, are active. The initial dose must be given within a month (30 days) after the dog’s first exposure to mosquitoes. The final dose must be given within a month (30 days) after the dog’s last exposure to mosquitoes.
When replacing another heartworm preventive product in a heartworm disease preventive program, the first dose of HEARTGARD Plus must be given within a month (30 days) of the last dose of the former medication.
If the interval between doses exceeds a month (30 days), the efficacy of ivermectin can be reduced. Therefore, for optimal performance, the chewable must be given once a month on or about the same day of the month. If treatment is delayed, whether by a few days or many, immediate treatment with HEARTGARD Plus and resumption of the recommended dosing regimen will minimize the opportunity for the development of adult heartworms.

[Shawna]

Hey Losul,

You may have already made your decision on what to do and what product to use but either way I think it is important for you to know the heartworm life cycle.

Microfilaraie circulating in the bloodstream, from my understanding, CAN NOT become adult worms without first going through L1 to L3 changes IN A mosquito. With this in mind, I don’t see how the worm burden can increase during these frigid winter months. Check with your vet to make sure about this but here’s some data.

FDA — “Microfilariae cannot become infective larvae without first passing through a mosquito. When the infected mosquito bites another dog, the mosquito spreads the infective larvae to the dog through the bite wound. In the newly infected dog, it takes between six and seven months for the infective larvae to mature into adult heartworms.” http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/resourcesforyou/animalhealthliteracy/ucm188470.htm

From what this and others are saying — Turbo has had this infection for at least six or seven months but maybe longer for there to be detectable L1 microfilariae in the blood.

American Heartworm Society — “Microfilariae cannot mature into adult heartworms without first passing through a mosquito.” http://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-owner-resources/heartworm.html#lifecycle

Trifexis website — “Microfilariae are actually microscopic larvae. They live in the blood of most heartworm-infected dogs. Microfilariae are ingested by a mosquito that feeds on an infected animal, where they molt twice over a period of about 2 weeks and develop into infective larvae…. An infected dog will typically be carrying microfilariae within 6 to 7 months after first being infected by the initial mosquito bite. And the cycle continues.” http://www.trifexis.com/about-parasites/about-heartworms/heartworm-lifecycle.aspx

There hasn’t been enough time for the infection to have been caused by not giving the preventative in November and after — the infection had to have happened before that. Which also means that the heartguard you were using wasn’t working (unless you missed giving – which I doubt). I also thought I read that heartguard should not be divided into multiple doses as the medication is not uniform throughout the product. Someone please correct me if that is incorrect.

If the above mention of splitting is correct, you could have given one dose with medication in it. The very next day Turbo could have been bitten by a mosquito. The next month you could have given the non-medicated portion and then again when splitting the next month non-medicated could have been given. By the time the next dose carrying medication is given the larvae could have developed to L5 stage (young adult) where heartgard (and others) are ineffective. OR, the mosquito’s in your area are ivermectin resistant.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Shawna.

[losul]

Melissa, I don’t have any doubt that it’s (supposedly gradually) released into the bloodstream, where it slowly builds up plasma concentrations. If the vet wanted to use a 6 month injection of this, (and as far as i know it would Never be done on a HW pos dog) I would have already immediately looked elsewhere. Speculation, but I think it would be very hard to formulate a timed release product for prevention that would give a relatively even plasma concentration for an entire 6 month period. There’s also the issue of injecting it properly. I would imagine it would have to be very carefully injected into storage fat, and if not done properly, the potential for really big problems, which I think they proheart6 had. I doubt I would ever trust a 6 month injection of this, not for prevention or otherwise, not ever.

Speculation again, but i would think 1 month topical doses would have a much higher margin of safety. Absorbed through the skin, wouldn’t the drug have to meet the subcutaneous -below skin fat layer before ever reaching the bloodstream or at least without an excessive amount getting in the bloodstream right off the bat? Supposedly it only builds up slowly for the first 3 or 4 months (3 or 4 applications) before the plasma concentrations level off and stop building up even with additional applications. Bayer says this the big advantage. On page 11 on the right, there is a chart that shows supposed plasma concentrations over time.

I don’t even really want to dwell too much about shortcomings of proheart6, I’m not even considering it and I think I know some of it’s problems, but in table 2 on page 10, it says this about it “At the end of the 6-month dosing interval, residual drug concentrations are negligible12”

http://www.bayerdvm.com/show.aspx/canine-heartworm-disease-blagburn

Intuition at first tells me I would rather have a drug that gets in, and more importantly gets out fast. Bayer claims the slow and more continual and evened out plasma concentrations is the big advantage to this vs. a big plasma spike and rapid exit such as ivermectin dosing, and then there is very real risk of anaphylactic shock from using ivermectin in a HW pos dog, because of the very sudden and too rapid die off of microfilaria. I don’t know, I really wish I had more answers and more time. I can’t really argue for this drug, sadly, I just don’t have anywhere near all the answers.

[losul]

All the regional Vetco clinic’s at Petcos in my area have canceled operations today due to hazardous driving conditions, so a 2nd HW antigen testing is out of the picture for today. We are expecting more sleet/ice/snow later today/tonight still. They will be at some of the Petco locations again next Sunday.

The thing to do upon diagnosis of HW is to immediately start (if not already on) a HWP, ivermectin, milbemycin, moxidectin to arrest maturation of some of the larval stages, and possible resulting further damages. The worst thing to do is nothing, and yet it has been almost 5 days now, and I still have done nothing. He hasn’t been on an HWP since Oct 18(heartguard+).

My turmoil has been;

1) the still unexplained trembling episodes last weekend.
2) the shock finding that he is heartworm positive
3) the fear that I wouldn’t be able to get treatment without a current rabies vaccination, it expires tomorrow, the vet was originally pressing to go forward with the vac.
4) I have a brand new vet, which i know/knew little about, wanting to put him on advantage multi (moxidectin) a drug that I knew very little to nothing about, and advising not to use the others, that I knew a little about.
5) The fear that once starting on moxidectin, I wouldn’t be able to change to different one throughout his treatment protocol. I think that may still be the case.
6) The fear that once given moxidectin it would alter any further HW testing results for a second opinion. This was largely unfounded, and especially for the antigen testing. The antigen remains for several months after adult worms clear. The moxidectin would affect the microfilaria testing probably some, but one dose of moxidectin will not likely clear so many of the L1, whereas Ivermectin, or the others would induce a much more rapid and sudden kill of L1.
7) I still don’t know the number of adult worms ( never will), whether more are still maturing, they likely are, and I don’t know if the heartguard lost any, all, or most efficacy by my refrigerating it for the entire season last year., and how much protection if any he had.

I don’t want everyone to think I’m totally Nutzo, (I am, I just don’t want everyone to think that 🙂 I can’t tell how horrible I feel about still not starting some kind of treatment still after five days, knowing the situation may likely be growing worse with each day’s postponement. Unless I find out something different in the interim, and provided my vets office can be open and road conditions are where I can get out (in case of a bad reaction) My intent is to go ahead and apply the advantage multi to my dog tommorrow morning, and then take things from there. I just cannot sit on my hands any longer.

[losul]

Shawna thanks much and I’ve been reading the prior links you provided also. I’m positive doxy is going to be a part of whatever treatment we go with. I’m getting that the doxy will cause the female worms to abort and expel their babies (larvae) well before the mama ever dies, and become sterile, the females shrink some, causing a little less congestion? It helps weaken the worms, shortens their life, lessens pathology, and disrupts transmission. When the mamas do die, they should be virtually empty of the larvae that is believed to cause much irritation and reactions in the system when the large worms die? I didn’t word that very well, I know, but does that sound somewhat right?

The slow kill ivermectin/doxy treatment. Does that require extra ivermectin treatments, I think I saw somewhere every 15 days. And also concerning would be repeated rounds of the doxy? too much antibiotic treatment concerns me also.

I read that in order to be antigen detectible that there has to be at least 6 to 9 mature worms and at least 3 of those must be female. But there may be more sensitive tests used currently according to the A.H.S.. I don’t know how many he could have at the upper end. And we know that if the microfilaria test is correct that there are both males and females. We are supposed to be getting another ice/snow storm tonight and through tommorrow, they’re saying the roads are extremely slick already, but if I can get out tommorrow, I’m going to take him to the Vetco clinic (at Petco) for another HW antigen check.

The vet said I could always later change HWP’s, and with only a 30 day gap but I don’t think he meant during treatment. I think it would concern me going from moxidectin to ivermectin. I researched this before, but just going off the top of my head for now. Ivermectin has a short half life, it seems maybe 6 or 8 hours or something like that. It’s rapidly metabolized by the liver, after a day it’s mostly gone, and after a couple of days it’s nearly completely gone.

The way I understand it, the topical moxidectin builds up gradually to levels before tapering off to more constant levels (3 to 4 months.) During that period and supposedly even on the first dose it goes to work on L3, L4, and even immature L5, and supposedly it works well on those, the proponents say better than the others, and with a narrower suceptibility gap. But evidently it isn’t so effective on microfilaria (L1) until it accumulates for some reason. It seems to me that if moxi takes that much time to build up, it would also take a long time to completely leave the system, so I am surmising that it would probably be fairly easy to switch from ivermectin to moxidectin, but maybe not vice versa, because, even after a month of nothing, I think there would still be substantial moxidectin in the system, and then to be adding something else (ivermectin).

AHS guidelines about seasonal preventative usage;
“To be maximally effective, heartworm prophylaxis should be given year-round, but if seasonal treatment is chosen, administration should begin at least one month prior to the anticipated start of heartworm transmission and should continue for at least 3 months after transmission typically ceases. The latter 3-month recommendation emanates from new knowledge regarding resistant strains, which showed that extended treatment after exposure is required to prevent infection. Current data demonstrate that not all compounds and formulations necessitate this extension.” ( they may be referring to
moxidectin here?)

I think Ivermectin will cause a very rapid die-off of L1 microfilaria which is not usually desired in cases where the L1 count is moderate or high, due to risk of severe reaction, so the slower kill off of L1 could be an advantage with moxi. I think I read somewhere that is actually the only one FDA approved as a microfilaricide.

A.H.S. guidelines;
” Topical moxidectin is now FDA-approved for use in heartworm-positive dogs to eliminate microfilariae. No adverse reactions due to high microfilarial counts were observed in the
laboratory or field studies conducted for approval of this label claim.”

also they say this about other combos with doxy may have similar results as the ivermectin/doxy combo. for weakening the adults, but only going by anecdotal reports;

“Select macrocyclic lactones coupled with doxycycline individually suppress embryogenesis
and weaken adult heartworms. As mentioned previously doxycycline reduces Wolbachia levels in all stages of heartworms. Studies have shown that administration of doxycycline in combination with ivermectin provided more rapid adulticidal activity than ivermectin alone as well as more efficiently reducing Wolbachia numbers more effectively than doxycycline alone. Anecdotal reports on other macrocyclic lactones with adulticidal properties suggest similar results but no confirmatory studies have been published.”

“In cases where arsenical therapy is not possible or is contraindicated, the use of a monthly heartworm preventive along with doxycycline at 10 mg/kg BID for a 4-week period might be considered. An antigen test should be performed every 6 months and the dog not considered cleared until two consecutive negative heartworm antigen tests have been obtained. If the dog is still antigen positive after one year, repeat the doxycycline therapy. Exercise should be rigidly restricted for the duration of the treatment process.”

Shawna, Dr. Garner is a big proponent of advantage multi, and he advocates and uses a similar protocol as what my vet is recommending (excepting all the prednisone), and also as the AHS guidelines. You can see my vets protocol in my initial post. I realize now, his was the HW surgery video I watched. I EMailed him with some questions, including one about using advantage multi/doxy in a slow kill, hopefully he will find time to reply. If you get a chance could you take a look. Maybe you can tell me your opinion about using multi/doxy in either the full 3 treatment immiticide plan or the slow kill possibilty using multi/doxy. As of now I’m leaning towards the fast kill, but at the very least I need to decide quickly which monocyclic lactone (moxidectin,ivermectin, or?) to get him on. Then I can decide more from there.

Heartworm Treatment Dogs

Thnx Shawna!

[ChiribayaShepherd]

As someone who works in a vet clinic I strongly recommend getting your dog or cat microchipped. In less than a year we have had a least 6 dogs brought in with no ID but a microchip and got them reunited, including one who had been missing for about a week and was about an hour drive away from home. I have had plenty of calls of people reporting their dog missing with no tags on but a microchip, only to call in a few hours later that someone had found the dog or cat and taken it somewhere where it was scanned and they were able to get their pet back home. I just had one of those calls

today

I can only imagine how many pets are reunited at the shelter.

Yes the needle is not tiny, but plenty of pets get on just fine having it done. Some pets will yowl in fear/pain at anything you do. Having it done during a routine surgery such as a spay or neuter is a good idea if you’re concerned about the pain.

While it seems a legitimate concern not to microchip your laboratory rat, even the staunchest opponents list single digits of cases of dogs and cats who had a chip in or near their sarcoma as their “evidence”, some of which are cancer prone breeds, out of the millions of pets who are microchipped each year. While heartbreaking for their owners, this less than one in a million, doctors acknowledge that the presence of a foreign body may have triggered the cancer but that does not show causation that the microchip would be of special concern over another type of foreign body. Two of the cases listed aren’t even cancer related, but due to human error in injecting the microchip improperly. More pets have developed sarcomas from vaccines.

Not knowing who has what scanner, or an owner’s failure to to update the registration is not a reason not to do it, it’s a reason to have better scanners and for owners, veterinary practices and shelters to be more vigilant in keeping records up to date.

Nobody realizes their dog or cat could escape from where they escaped from until it does. I didn’t know my dog could run down a cliff that was at least a 50 degree angle until he was 150 feet down it; owners don’t know their dog can scale an 8 foot fence until it already has; or that their indoor cat would bolt past them that one time after years of showing no interest in that door. And trying to grab a breakaway collar to catch them means it should, well, break away! How is that a fail-safe way to keep an ID on a dog exactly?

Microchipping is not a “false” sense of security, and for every dog with a chip that couldn’t be read, there are hundreds if not thousands who never get back home because their owners didn’t microchip their pets in the first place.