[Dori]

I’m so happy to hear that Bruno is on the mend. As soon as you seen that Bruno is back to normal you can start reintroducing the stuff you were adding to his diet. I would start slowly just as you did in the beginning and let him adjust to additives one at a time. Just not too much too soon. Before you know it he’ll be back to enjoying everything the way he was before. Just make sure all the chews are USA and nothing from China (re the fine print). Sometimes there’s like a big american flag on the front only to read in the fine print that it was packaged in the USA but ingredients are from China. Again, happy Bruno’s getting better.

[Susan]

Its just that everytime Ive wormed my dog he gets diarrhea thru the night & is not well the next day, cause we walk everywhere & go to dogs parks vets say I should worm him every 3 months but this time the vet said that we will just do a float test instead, its been 5 month now & I havn’t wormed him, there’s no worms in his poo but Ive read that I think its the hook or whip worm u cant see them unless under a micro scope..The vet said that Milbemax is a milder wormer we’ll try that one next time..

[InkedMarie]

Aquarian: well, my reasoning is sometimes when a dog is used to a lower quality food and go right to five star, it doesn’t always sit well. I frequently read where dogs go that route, get sick & owners throw their hands up, saying give star food isn’t so good.

The money is an issue, now that you mention it. I’ve fed food that sells for $78 +/- and ground raw that I don’t want to calculate lol; I can’t imagine paying $25 a bag and going up to even $45-50 a bag. It’d be sticker shock!

[Shasta220]

Some of you might remember, but a while ago I started a thread on here asking for kind ways to persuade an owner that Beneful’s “…wholesome ingredients like soy, corn, and real meat…” Aren’t as “wholesome” as he thinks. I still have been unable to convince him, and every time I pet sit for him, I’m stuck giving his poor pooches the garbage.

Well, I just went over for a “meet n greet” of a new client with a Lab pup. They’re both retired and have a beautiful home, and seem to take wonderful care of their pets. I was gonna assume they’d have at least a fair-quality feed store-type food, but of course not! They had Beneful for their 8wk old puppy. I’m going to take care of it for 2wks next month – gosh I don’t know how I’ll survive, feeding that puppy such trash! I’m half tempted to feed the pup my own food, as it’s gold compared to Beneful (then again, about anything is!).

Anyway, I’ll be dropping a bug or two in those owners’ ears as well, trying to tell em: just because Beneful is one of the more expensive Walmart foods around here, definitely doesn’t make it the best…

Sorry for the random vent. If anyone else wants to pitch in with their Beneful (or other junky food) story, feel free LOL! I understand giving lower quality food because you simply can’t afford more, but seriously! I buy 4 star food that is nearly HALF the cost of that junk! (And this family definitely doesn’t seem to be concerned about price…)

[banditsmom]

Hi I am a newbie here who has learned a real lot about dog nutrition by reading this site. Much more than I thought I would. I’m very happy about it.
I have 5 small dogs and I’ve decided that the youngest one,who is a 2 yo LH Chihuahua is allergic to chicken. She’s been itching and licking and biting at her paws. Chicken is the only thing she has had consistently in her diet, probably 5 days a week. I always put a little meat on top of their canned and it’s usually chicken. She gets a variety now. I used to feed them exclusively Merrick ( a lot of the chicken ones) but for the past 3 months I’ve used different brands and protein. As it turns out these are all 4 or 5 star foods on here.
Thing is, I need to find a good rotatation of foods without any chicken ingredients for the 5 of them. Of course they’re picky…
I’ve been trying different foods and so far I have Trippet original and Wellness turkey stews.
Reading here about the manufacturing is scary. I started looking for companies who manufacture their own and I found Nutrisource. They have 4.5 stars on here. ( would put in a link but I don’t know how). They also are not on the recall list on here.
Anyway, I’m interested in their Nutrisource Lamb and also their Pure Vita and Natural Planet Organics foods. Neither one of those canned foods are rated here so I really need opinions. They all look to me like they have very high fat contents.
For Pure Vita turkey stew the guaranteed analysis is pro 8.5% fat 5.5% fiber 1.5% moisture 82% they also list ash which is max 1.9%. For Nat. Planet turkey it is pro 10% fat 8% fiber 1.5% and moisture 78%. There is the Nutrisource lamb and rice it is pro 9% fat 8% fiber 1.5% and moisture 78%.
Sorry this is so long but I don’t want to make mistakes. Your opinions on this would really be appreciated.
Other foods I’m looking at are Ziwi Peak, Addiction and Natures Logic. Thanks

[losul]

Hi Patty, Thank you for the info, very helpful. and also good to know about the liver values.

Looking back at records and thinking clearer now, you could be right, I think there could be a window of chance he could have been infected prior to adoption. I have records from the shelter where I adopted, they are pretty sketchy, but I believe he was there twice and I think briefly at another shelter, which I have no records for. The records from them that I have go back to Dec., 2011, but on 8/24/2012, they show exam, heartworm negative, pyrental, mchip. 8/31/2012 HWP given. This was the only time on the shelters records where HWP was given. There was a prior HW test done on 12/09/2011, but no mention of HWP between then and 8/24/12. Seems kind of strange now that the first HWP given to him at the shelter was suddenly 5 days before we adopted. We adopted on 9/5/1012. The adoption came with a complimentary exam and fecal from the shelter’s attending veterinarian which we used on 9/12. They sold us numerous things including 12 doses of heartguard +. I didn’t like the vet, very absent-minded to put it lightly, I had to keep reminding her we still needed the fecal, and she even seemed afraid to touch Turbo, barely did. I’m pretty sure I finished 2012 with 2 more (2/3) doses. I think after 2012 season was done was when i refrigerated it. I was giving him 2/3 of the chew and then putting the leftover 1/3 in a baggie, and using with an additional 1/3 the next time, that remaining 2/3 was used for the next dose, etc.

About this same time last year he had a HW check with his rabies vaccination, before we later resumed with HWP. I didn’t even know until recently, that if giving seasonally, it should be started 1 month before the season starts. I was under the impression until recently, that the weather had to stay above 57 degress for like 10 consequtitive days, and then I thought there was a 30 day window of time after that. And I remembered with past dogs, we’d get a 6 dose supply and it would last the season.

I’ll likely never know 100%, but for me, there’s just too much I did wrong. At the very least, i should have been throwing away the leftover 1/3’s, reading the package thoroughly, and I should have gotten myself better informed. I’m pretty sure this experience wouldn’t ever happen in most cases, given a more proper protocol than what I did.

Yes i think too Xrays first, and then I’ll take it from there whether to get ultrasound also, and hopefully help determine a more exact course of action. I might have to wait for awhile for results on that. They have a pro radiologist come in to read them, but generally only comes in once a month, sometimes more often. I could get a quicker result, but with additional cost. The timing of this going on with other circumstances currently at hand, unfortunately, I’m going to have to at least be mindful of the ongoing/upcoming expenses.

THNX again Patty.

Shawna:
I knew you fostered BT’s, but I had no idea that you had a mix of the same sort as Turbo! I would luv to see pics of your little “turd”. Getting pics on my computer and then figuring out what to do with them from there, has long been on my “to do” list. I’m so technology deficient, I’m such a procrastinator, and I’ve so many things backed already up on that list, but I intend to get around to it.

That’s so funny the way you describe the “monster”. Turbo is the quirkiest dog I’ve ever met. He very oftentimes tries to communicate things, and many times still, I’m left scratching my head as to exactly what it is.. And sometimes his manners are such that I wonder if he wasn’t one that was taken too quickly from his Mama and siblings, before learning proper manners, and the consequences of not using good manners. I can see where he has been probably been misunderstood for much of his prior life. The first couple days we had him, i was second guessing myself some, and we nearly didn’t even take him to start with. But within a few days, I knew he was right for us. I could go on and on, but I absolutely must get busy this weekend, and the days following, doing things that are already so backed up.

Thnx again Shawna.

Turbo has noticeably been drinking more water and urinating more, this past week. I always thought he never drank enough, and I’ve always added some water to his kibble portions. I don’t think I’d ever seen him pee for more than 10 or 15 seconds at a time at the most, but the other day I think he must have peed for 45 seconds straight, and that was midday. I guess the advantage multi could cause that. Still no more trembling episodes and still haven’t a clue about what happened with that. might be a few days before I can write again.

[theBCnut]

My old lady would only eat The cheap ones too, mostly Purina indoor cat. I finally figured out, from something I read, how to switch her food. I always start out by adding about 3 pieces of the new food to her old food for a few days. Then I add 10% for a few days. Then I can go to adding 25%, 50%, 75%, and all new food. But everytime I have to start out with just a very few pieces.

I’ve never figured out how to post pictures here. Sandy knows.

[freshley]

I have the normal chain stores (petco, petsmart & petvalue)(live in PA).
I had my previous dog on Canidae and he’s on Wellness puppy now. I had read that Canidae is being produced by diamond but they opened their new plant so they are now making some of it in their plant now.

I was going to try Solid Gold or taste of the wild but they are made by diamond. I was then thinking of chicken soup for dog lover as it’s reasonably priced and has a 4 star rating but the reviews from people about it are not very good.
I was going to try blue buffalo but there was a rumor that they were being bought by Proctor and Gamble who also has had issues with recalls.

[Shawna]

Hi Patty,

Dori actually contacted them and was told this
“Hi losul and Shawna, I just spoke with tech support at Merial makers of Heartgard and was told that the ENTIRE dose must be given. You cannot split in half because they can not guarantee it’s efficacy. It is suggested that you not do that.”

Of course they would not suggest splitting doses for reasons other than efficacy. I just remember reading somewhere that to use a compounding pharmacy versus splitting the drug if pup is at the low end of dosing..

I did a quick google search and Mary Straus agrees with you and with Dori. “The issue of splitting heartworm pills comes up frequently. I have spoken to representatives from Merial (maker of Heartgard) and Novartis (maker of Interceptor). Both said that the active ingredients are mixed into their products before the pills are formed, and therefore should be evenly distributed (though they cannot guarantee this). However, both manufacturers advise against pill splitting.”

So maybe not splitting is just a precautionary recommendation. In which case it is unlikely the splitting would have been an issue.

[theBCnut]

If Turbo was tested within 6 months of getting him and this is the first time since then that he was tested, I would strongly suspect that he already had heartworms but was not far enough along to test positive. Many, many times a year, we got dogs in that had come from the shelter and had tested negative, but 8 months later they turned out to be positive after all.

I corresponded with someone who claimed to work at the plant where Heartgard was made. They said that the ivermectin and the meat paste carrier are mixed in a vat then pressed into molds of the appropriate size. That tells me that other than not giving enough or allowing air to spoil the meds, splitting should not be a problem. Example, if I have a 35 lb dog and a 15 lb dog, I should be able to split a chew for a 60 lb dog into thirds and give one dog 1/3 and the other dog 2/3 and it should be fine as long as I can split them accurately. I should not save some for the next month though, because the drugs could oxidize. The vet and the company make more if I have to buy a pack of the appropriate size for each and since it is a prescription drug, the laws don’t allow sharing anyways, but trimming off excess should not make the whole dose ineffective. My dogs weigh 42 lbs and usually I have to buy drugs for 60 lbs. Trimming off 1/4 should still leave enough drug for a 45 lb dog, but if it is a drug that comes in sealed pods/blister packs, I assume that it should be kept away from oxygen until use.

[Shawna]

Patty — I very much appreciate your natural and holistic approach combined with your schooling and hands on experience!!!!

Losul — I agree with Patty.. This infection could be quite old, even predating you adopting Turbo. Prior to this, have you had Turbo heartworm tested since getting him? Even if he got them under your watch — I think blaming yourself is a stretch.. How many of us didn’t know about the potential issues with refrigeration? I certainly didn’t. And many people read that you split the dose and no mention of problems. Even when I mentioned it, I wasn’t 100% certain. Just a vague memory.. And if heartworm in your area are ivermectin resistant, well you certainly can’t blame yourself for that!!

I had a foster puppy that was 1/2 Boston Terrier and also definitely had some bully in him.. Everyone who saw him thought pitty, especially Staffordshire. He came to me, with his mommy, when he was only 4 days old. His eyes were still shut.. He was such a little monster, so head strong and SO smart. He was the only foster dog that escaped the 4×4 enclosure I made for them (2×4’s and plastic chicken wire). In the enclosure I had an open crate, water bowl, potty pad, blanket etc. Came home one afternoon to find him terrorizing the other dogs in my bedroom with a little hole large enough for his little body in the plastic wire.. Little turd!!! I don’t have any good pics of the little guy with me but I’m going to post a not so good one on the blog here in a sec. Full grown my little guy is about 30 pounds too.. Weird huh…

[theBCnut]

Hi Losul

Several things
The bloodwork is exactly where I would expect it to be and the most important thing is those liver enzymes. He should have no problem with treatment, since his liver function is normal.

I can’t find the thread that I’m looking for on another site, but the consensus was that you should wait 3 days after ivermectin to start milk thistle, no opinion on others because it was specifically a thread about using ivermectin that turned into a thread about using milk thistle.

The heartworm infection still could have occured before you got Turbo depending on when the heartworm tests actually took place and what kind of tests they were.

The load should be light because you/your vet are seeing no other signs. Ultrasound would certainly be more diagnostic as far as being able to see the worms and whether they are causing a heart murmur(if your vet didn’t hear one), enlarging of one side of the heart, filling the pulmonary artery, etc. only if they have high quality, up to date equipment and are good at interpreting what they see.

If the xray looks normal, then I probably wouldn’t do an ultrasound, and I would assume a light load of worms. But if the xray showed any changes, I would want the ultrasound too.

[losul]

Hi Dori, I’m doing a little better, thnx, and Turbo’s O.K.

My agony peaked when the hard realization came that it was my fault, I already pretty much knew it, but I think it helped to finally get it out. It’s been a little more uphill now.

The fleas, i don’t know what to say. You’re situation with the fleas/insects in the area, and having several dogs is different than mine. Shawna and the others could suggest some alternatives vs. using chemicals, if you can or want to go that route. I don’t really know what I would do for sure in your situation.

I don’t use anything on turbo at all, haven’t had any problem with them here. I didn’t intend to use anything on him at all, but he’s already got insecticide on, or in him, now from the advantage, and I hate it that fact. I can’t really see keeping him on this very long because of that. I always figured if fleas become a problem here, I would only deal with them then, but not before. I know we have/had chiggers in the yard, several years ago, I had a bout with them, itching badly for several weeks. Never had a problem though on Turbo knock on wood. We have alot of ticks here, but again i don’t use anything on Turbo except some body checks, and I wasn’t always diligent about it. I only found I think 2 crawling ticks on Turbo this past season, until that last embedded one him that somehow survived through several bouts with hard frosts and cold weather, and I didn’t find until after it had been feeding for several days. I found more ticks than that on myself, seriously. Maybe some of them were crawling off Turbo and on to me. I hate it that he got worms, and now I hate that i have to give him all these harsh chemicals to try to make them go away. I think Turbo is young and healthy enough to come through it, but I still worry about damages and longer term consequences.

X-rays are set up for next week, and I agree, they will definitely be worth having done.

Hang in there with Katie, i think your determination will get it all figured out!

[losul]

Update; There is no noticeable greasiness or anything remaining on Turbo’s fur. can’t tell it was there.

Having some difficulty taking out on leash. yesterday the ice was thawing and I didn’t get more than a few steps in the yard, one foot went one way the other the other way. Muddy mess. Turbo amused I think.

Turbo is normally calm in the house, but when i get the collar and/or leash he gets way overexited. Today especially. Another good reason to get X-rays to try to help determine his current exercise restriction neccesity.

Th vet called me this evening, I told him about what Merial had told Dori. We agreed X-rays could be helpful, will call and set up tommorrow.

I told him that I had already received a rabies vaccination reminder in the mail from them. He reiterated not to worry, they have several dogs that they refuse to vaccinate even when the owner wants it done.

That’s it for now.

[Jackie B]

Cats, especially males, need plenty of wet food. As people have already stated. If I was able to have a cat, I would seek out a brand like WildKitty where you can make your own raw at home. I feel like it is the optimum food for cats. That being said, if you want to do kibble and supplement with canned, any can is better than none. But a canned food without red-flag ingredients (same standard as for dogs) would be my pick.

A friend of mine who fosters many cats and kittens says Authority is her budget-friendly but still quality canned food choice.

Also, you can get a pet watering fountain. Cats love them. I have a CatMate brand one for my dog.

[losul]

Hello again Dori.

I wouldn’t EVER want to discourage milk thistle use in totality. I really do believe in it’s potent powers to protect and even help heal the liver. But it’s also because of these potent powers I think awareness/caution is warranted, and especially in regards to possible interactions with other drugs/botanicals, and under certain other circumstances.

I think the last time I looked into this, was well over a year ago. The bookmarks I had on it died with my last computer. It’s hard to get detailed and reliable info from anywhere but the manufacturers, as to actual expected half lives, exactly how the drugs are metabolized, etc. and am having difficulty getting that reliable info again. It’s also hard to get reliable studies on various herbs and supplements,

Going by other resources I think it can be established that ivermectin is primarily metabolized by CYP3A4 in the liver, and as far as I’m concerned, for me, there is enough evidence that milk thistle does inhibit CYP3A4, even though there are few studies as to exactly what extent, dosage rates, potency hard to be determined etc. on milk thistle or almost other botanicals/herb. Most sites I’ve seen, classify milk thistle as a CYP3A4 inhibitor of undefined potency, which would be usually be the case in unregulated and essentially non-standardized supplements. That study referenced in the link i posted the other day, implies relatively high inhibiting potency for milk thistle.

http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/mthistle.html

Not sure exactly how milbemycin, moxidectin, is metabolized, but I would have to assume it’s much the same way as ivermectin, as they are all in the same class of drugs. Apparently ivermectin has a longer longer half life in dogs than i recalled, and milbemycin a little longer than ivermectin. But these, when given in oral dosages, are at least predictable as to their peak plasma concentrations, especially when given without a meal, it’s within hours. Because of the slowed release method of topical moxidectin, peak concentration times for that cannot reliably be determined, I’ve read anywhere between 8 to 21 days after dosage. I would have liked to have incorporated milk thistle into Turbo’s regimen at some point, but as of now, I don’t see how i can confidently do that using moxidectin, and what i don’t know yet about moxidectin. Because all these HWP’s are in the same class of drugs, for now I have to assume they are metablized much in the same way as ivermectin.

If a medication has an expected half life of 24 hours, it doesn’t mean the medication will be cleared in 48 hours. It means that every 24 hours the remaining plasma concentration should be expected to be divided by 2.

I suspect that most advice for milk thistle is for very low dosage, only once a day, and after a reasonably safe time period, at least a day or two after HWP administration? Given in that way, I wouldn’t think there would be significant alterations in elimination time or efficacy, However, I wouldn’t listen to any advice that says to give it before, concurrently with, or immediately after any HWP. Nor any loading up on dosage of it. Additional precautions should be dogs with the defective/suspected defective MDR1 gene, which are already much more susceptible to these drugs crossing the blood/brain barrier, dogs on certain other drugs, or are being given high doses of ivermectin, or the others.

“Dogs with defects in the P-glycoprotein gene (MDR1) can be severely poisoned by ivermectin.”
“Since drugs that inhibit CYP3A4 enzymes often also inhibit P-glycoprotein transport, the risk of increased absorption past the blood-brain barrier exists when ivermectin is administered along with other CYP3A4 inhibitors. These drugs include statins, HIV protease inhibitors, many calcium channel blockers, and glucocorticoids such as dexamethasone, lidocaine, and the benzodiazepines.[21]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin

Note: I think ivermectin and other like drugs given in the low dosages as given normally for heartworm protection, are usually considered safe for dogs with the defective MDR1 gene, unless other factors come into play.

The only time I would ever consider loading up on milk thistle for a dog is if poisonous mushroom ingestion is strongly suspected or in acute aflatoxin poisoning. In which case, high dosages could save the dogs liver and it’s life.

[Cyndi]

From what I know, you definitely need to get “taurine” in her. I believe that’s what it is that cat’s can suffer a deficiency from. There are quite a few reviews I’ve read on Hare Today, where I get my raw meat for my dog, from people who feed their cats a raw diet. They sell mice, and baby chicks and whole sardines and stuff. You might want to look into that…

Good luck! 🙂

*Edit* & Hare Today does sell a Taurine supplement.

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=291

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Cyndi.

[Akari_32]

He doesn’t seem at all like the type to bolt out an open door. Someone dumped this cat, I’m sure of it. He’s shy and skittish, but boy can be get in to trouble! He escaped from the bathroom, then after a while jumped the step-over gate in the hallway. I figured I’d just let him roam the house. He’s already been climbing all over the kitchen table, tried to jump on both reptile tanks in the living room, found the blinds on the back door… Lol

He seems very healthy. I checked his teeth, and they looks great, his coat is solid, he’s super soft. So I’m really worried about him giving the dogs anything. I’ve got him locked in the bathroom for the night, though, and I’ll lock him in there when I go to work tomorrow. He can’t be trusted alone just yet, it seems LOL

The good news is, he knows what to do in the litter box! Thank god lol that would be terrible if he didn’t.

He’s starving, it seems, so I think at this point he’ll anything. He did end up going back for that dry food. And he got into moms room and under black hole of a bed, so I had to lure him out with even more canned food. He’s eaten two tablespoons of Friskies and about 1/8 cup (less, really) of the Max Cat. And I saw poop and pee in his litter box when I went In the bathroom to get him to stop clawing on the door lol Turns out, the litter I bought is NOT clumping. I flushed the poop down the toilet, but can’t do anything about the pee. That’s ok, I guess. I’ll buy better litter later. I bought everything but the Innova, EVO and Max Cat at the dollar store. Can’t expect much from dollar store cat litter LOL But his bowls are really cute! :p

Another friend of mine and I have decided that if I can’t keep the cat (it’s up to mom, in the end, after all), that she will take him. They’ve got another cat, and they should get along great.

[Akari_32]

This has got to be worlds sweetest cat! He just wants to petted and rubbed and loved on. He’s not pushy about it, though. He’s so gentle. I tried to lock him in the back room with a baby gate, but he let himself out while I was preparing his food lol there a step over style baby gate in the opening of the hallway, and I think the only thing keeping him from jumping it is the dogs lol He’s already made himself at home in my sisters empty room (probably because it smells like Chester, her cat), so I just closed the bathroom and let him be. I happened to buy a little bed at goodwill today for Bentley, but this cat is freaking huge, so I’ll give it him LOL He’s now laying the doorway of the bedroom, where he can see me. He goes between napping, and just watching me. It’s pretty cute :3

Here’s some pictures of him! He must be a Maine coon mix. He’s very well built!

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/13BB068A-DA57-4E25-9CC4-EABAF43B9A11_zps0eou7ahm.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/E59D56BA-672F-47CA-A89B-B0E593994C05_zpstu3f5xg0.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/5DFA0F18-A97C-48AA-9DDB-25E9BDA13C83_zps24xuqkfh.jpg

In the last pic, I was texting the girl that gave him to me, instead of petting him, so he plopped down at my feet and stared at me LOL

[pugmomsandy]

I’m sure Darwin’s is a great product and several people here use it. But with 2 large dogs you might check into feeding prey model for some meals such as feeding a whole chicken (including the feet and gizzards, liver and neck). Not every single meal is required to be complete and balanced. 20% or less can be unbalanced. There is a large raw forum at dogforums dot com and it has a very big “raw feeding pictures thread”. Also check out preymodelraw dot com. I also use a recipe book, “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” which is easy to follow and comes with a recipe to make a vitamin mix. You’d save a lot of money by buying bulk or family packs of ground beef or chicken and even bone-in pork chops. And they go on sale when it’s their sell-by dates. I also find whole raw sardines at the ethnic grocery store for $1.19/lb on sale. This is one meal for my dog and he only needs one sardine which is around 3 oz. the sardines come in various sizes. Another option is buying your own meat and using a premix.

[losul]

Thnx Shawna, you bring up very good points. I too would think that all or most of any infectious larvae would have already transformed into adults based upon the latest possible date(s) of infection. But I wonder if some of the migrating larvae take longer to mature than others? I can’t possibly see how Turbo could have been infected after the last heartguard was given, it got cold here early, already had some hard freezes, and I don’t think the temp again even barely hit the 50’s let alone 60 for more than a day or 2 past the date of his last HWP dose. But then I didn’t dream I would ever find a tick on his ear in early November either. Of course If I only knew then what i know now..

I think probably why the A.H.S. advised if giving seasonal to go 3 months past last possible transmission date, and 1 month before, is because of Dr. Blagburn’s studies of possible resistance to HWP’s. If one were to do that, it would be about 9 or 10 months anyway here, almost year round. it’s hard to tell what’s true, these preventatives are big moneymakers for the pharmas, and of course ivermectin has been off patent (generics) for awhile. But for me, after this is cleared, it will be necessary to err on the side of overcaution going forward.

It was explained to me that one reason they want to give the HWP first for a couple of months is because of the gap between what the HWP will kill and and what the adulticide will kill. Evidently some stages are not susceptible to either the adulticide or the HWP. The time is supposed to allow those stages that are in the gap, time to get vulnerable to the adulticide. Otherwise new adults could still move in after the older ones die.

I didn’t miss any doses, it was every 35 days, the actual dose dates are all marked on my calendars but I am trying to find more about the failure. I believe it’s most likely my failure, I can’t blame anything else. I have a case number with Merial, which they told me to have my vet call them with the case I.D. and he could then speak to their vet. All Merial would tell me is that they couldn’t guarantee it’s efficacy if refrigerated. I forget to ask or remind my vet about this the last time I talked to him.

I went ahead and applied the multi this morning after talking to them, about 4 hours ago. No reaction thus far. They assured my that if I change my mind on the HWP used, I could still do that after 30 days. I still intend to try to seek another HW test at least and/or a second opinion. I believe I might go ahead with X-rays, and I wonder why they also didn’t do a urinalysis. The extent, how long, how many, etc. it’s all questions that bear heavy on my mind, although these things may not even be able to really reveal. If I knew it were just a minor infection, it would be easier to bear and decide the course, I don’t know if he had multiple infections throughout last season, if he had minimal or any protection at all, or what.

Thnx Shawna.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[Dori]

I don’t use Heartgard so I’m not sure weather it says it on the box or not. If it doesn’t, it certainly should as they were so adamant not to refrigerate unless they expect the Vet to tell you but, really, it would be their responsibility. As i said, I don’t use the product so maybe it is on the box in tiny print. I use Sentinel and after Losul’s tragic story with Turbo I will be doing year round treatment. I live in Atlanta and the weather is always a little dicey here in this part of Georgia. Yesterday it reached 76 degrees in the afternoon and today’s high will be 46. I was only treating during the hotter months but now I’m a bit freaked out about putting their health in the hands of my ability to predict the weather or keep track of it moment to moment. From what you said in some earlier post, I think it was you, the treatment for Heartworms seems more toxic and scary if not the same as giving year round Sentinel. My guys are too small (as are yours I believe) to withstand treatment if they actually got heart worms. My biggest is 8 lbs. and healthy, yes, but she was 14 years old last September so she’s not a great candidate for major heart worm infestation or the treatment for even low infestation. I don’t like the idea and of course will worry about giving them the Sentinel year round but I will do that. Actually I gave the a dose the morning after I read Losul’s original post on this Forum. I do give Milk Thistle for seven days after the dose.

[Dori]

This is from the Heartgard website as to administration. Shawna, I believe you are correct in that the entire pill must be given. From what I’m reading the site says that you should continue to give Heargard for one (1) month not 3 after heart worm season ends.

ADMINISTRATION: Remove only one chewable at a time from the foil-backed blister card. Return the card with the remaining chewables to its box to protect the product from light. Because most dogs find HEARTGARD Plus palatable, the product can be offered to the dog by hand. Alternatively, it may be added intact to a small amount of dog food.The chewable should be administered in a manner that encourages the dog to chew, rather than to swallow without chewing. Chewables may be broken into pieces and fed to dogs that normally swallow treats whole.
Care should be taken that the dog consumes the complete dose, and treated animals should be observed for a few minutes after administration to ensure that part of the dose is not lost or rejected. If it is suspected that any of the dose has been lost, redosing is recommended.
HEARTGARD Plus should be given at monthly intervals during the period of the year when mosquitoes (vectors), potentially carrying infective heartworm larvae, are active. The initial dose must be given within a month (30 days) after the dog’s first exposure to mosquitoes. The final dose must be given within a month (30 days) after the dog’s last exposure to mosquitoes.
When replacing another heartworm preventive product in a heartworm disease preventive program, the first dose of HEARTGARD Plus must be given within a month (30 days) of the last dose of the former medication.
If the interval between doses exceeds a month (30 days), the efficacy of ivermectin can be reduced. Therefore, for optimal performance, the chewable must be given once a month on or about the same day of the month. If treatment is delayed, whether by a few days or many, immediate treatment with HEARTGARD Plus and resumption of the recommended dosing regimen will minimize the opportunity for the development of adult heartworms.

[Shawna]

Hey Losul,

You may have already made your decision on what to do and what product to use but either way I think it is important for you to know the heartworm life cycle.

Microfilaraie circulating in the bloodstream, from my understanding, CAN NOT become adult worms without first going through L1 to L3 changes IN A mosquito. With this in mind, I don’t see how the worm burden can increase during these frigid winter months. Check with your vet to make sure about this but here’s some data.

FDA — “Microfilariae cannot become infective larvae without first passing through a mosquito. When the infected mosquito bites another dog, the mosquito spreads the infective larvae to the dog through the bite wound. In the newly infected dog, it takes between six and seven months for the infective larvae to mature into adult heartworms.” http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/resourcesforyou/animalhealthliteracy/ucm188470.htm

From what this and others are saying — Turbo has had this infection for at least six or seven months but maybe longer for there to be detectable L1 microfilariae in the blood.

American Heartworm Society — “Microfilariae cannot mature into adult heartworms without first passing through a mosquito.” http://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-owner-resources/heartworm.html#lifecycle

Trifexis website — “Microfilariae are actually microscopic larvae. They live in the blood of most heartworm-infected dogs. Microfilariae are ingested by a mosquito that feeds on an infected animal, where they molt twice over a period of about 2 weeks and develop into infective larvae…. An infected dog will typically be carrying microfilariae within 6 to 7 months after first being infected by the initial mosquito bite. And the cycle continues.” http://www.trifexis.com/about-parasites/about-heartworms/heartworm-lifecycle.aspx

There hasn’t been enough time for the infection to have been caused by not giving the preventative in November and after — the infection had to have happened before that. Which also means that the heartguard you were using wasn’t working (unless you missed giving – which I doubt). I also thought I read that heartguard should not be divided into multiple doses as the medication is not uniform throughout the product. Someone please correct me if that is incorrect.

If the above mention of splitting is correct, you could have given one dose with medication in it. The very next day Turbo could have been bitten by a mosquito. The next month you could have given the non-medicated portion and then again when splitting the next month non-medicated could have been given. By the time the next dose carrying medication is given the larvae could have developed to L5 stage (young adult) where heartgard (and others) are ineffective. OR, the mosquito’s in your area are ivermectin resistant.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.

[losul]

Melissa, I don’t have any doubt that it’s (supposedly gradually) released into the bloodstream, where it slowly builds up plasma concentrations. If the vet wanted to use a 6 month injection of this, (and as far as i know it would Never be done on a HW pos dog) I would have already immediately looked elsewhere. Speculation, but I think it would be very hard to formulate a timed release product for prevention that would give a relatively even plasma concentration for an entire 6 month period. There’s also the issue of injecting it properly. I would imagine it would have to be very carefully injected into storage fat, and if not done properly, the potential for really big problems, which I think they proheart6 had. I doubt I would ever trust a 6 month injection of this, not for prevention or otherwise, not ever.

Speculation again, but i would think 1 month topical doses would have a much higher margin of safety. Absorbed through the skin, wouldn’t the drug have to meet the subcutaneous -below skin fat layer before ever reaching the bloodstream or at least without an excessive amount getting in the bloodstream right off the bat? Supposedly it only builds up slowly for the first 3 or 4 months (3 or 4 applications) before the plasma concentrations level off and stop building up even with additional applications. Bayer says this the big advantage. On page 11 on the right, there is a chart that shows supposed plasma concentrations over time.

I don’t even really want to dwell too much about shortcomings of proheart6, I’m not even considering it and I think I know some of it’s problems, but in table 2 on page 10, it says this about it “At the end of the 6-month dosing interval, residual drug concentrations are negligible12”

http://www.bayerdvm.com/show.aspx/canine-heartworm-disease-blagburn

Intuition at first tells me I would rather have a drug that gets in, and more importantly gets out fast. Bayer claims the slow and more continual and evened out plasma concentrations is the big advantage to this vs. a big plasma spike and rapid exit such as ivermectin dosing, and then there is very real risk of anaphylactic shock from using ivermectin in a HW pos dog, because of the very sudden and too rapid die off of microfilaria. I don’t know, I really wish I had more answers and more time. I can’t really argue for this drug, sadly, I just don’t have anywhere near all the answers.

[losul]

All the regional Vetco clinic’s at Petcos in my area have canceled operations today due to hazardous driving conditions, so a 2nd HW antigen testing is out of the picture for today. We are expecting more sleet/ice/snow later today/tonight still. They will be at some of the Petco locations again next Sunday.

The thing to do upon diagnosis of HW is to immediately start (if not already on) a HWP, ivermectin, milbemycin, moxidectin to arrest maturation of some of the larval stages, and possible resulting further damages. The worst thing to do is nothing, and yet it has been almost 5 days now, and I still have done nothing. He hasn’t been on an HWP since Oct 18(heartguard+).

My turmoil has been;

1) the still unexplained trembling episodes last weekend.
2) the shock finding that he is heartworm positive
3) the fear that I wouldn’t be able to get treatment without a current rabies vaccination, it expires tomorrow, the vet was originally pressing to go forward with the vac.
4) I have a brand new vet, which i know/knew little about, wanting to put him on advantage multi (moxidectin) a drug that I knew very little to nothing about, and advising not to use the others, that I knew a little about.
5) The fear that once starting on moxidectin, I wouldn’t be able to change to different one throughout his treatment protocol. I think that may still be the case.
6) The fear that once given moxidectin it would alter any further HW testing results for a second opinion. This was largely unfounded, and especially for the antigen testing. The antigen remains for several months after adult worms clear. The moxidectin would affect the microfilaria testing probably some, but one dose of moxidectin will not likely clear so many of the L1, whereas Ivermectin, or the others would induce a much more rapid and sudden kill of L1.
7) I still don’t know the number of adult worms ( never will), whether more are still maturing, they likely are, and I don’t know if the heartguard lost any, all, or most efficacy by my refrigerating it for the entire season last year., and how much protection if any he had.

I don’t want everyone to think I’m totally Nutzo, (I am, I just don’t want everyone to think that 🙂 I can’t tell how horrible I feel about still not starting some kind of treatment still after five days, knowing the situation may likely be growing worse with each day’s postponement. Unless I find out something different in the interim, and provided my vets office can be open and road conditions are where I can get out (in case of a bad reaction) My intent is to go ahead and apply the advantage multi to my dog tommorrow morning, and then take things from there. I just cannot sit on my hands any longer.

[losul]

Shawna thanks much and I’ve been reading the prior links you provided also. I’m positive doxy is going to be a part of whatever treatment we go with. I’m getting that the doxy will cause the female worms to abort and expel their babies (larvae) well before the mama ever dies, and become sterile, the females shrink some, causing a little less congestion? It helps weaken the worms, shortens their life, lessens pathology, and disrupts transmission. When the mamas do die, they should be virtually empty of the larvae that is believed to cause much irritation and reactions in the system when the large worms die? I didn’t word that very well, I know, but does that sound somewhat right?

The slow kill ivermectin/doxy treatment. Does that require extra ivermectin treatments, I think I saw somewhere every 15 days. And also concerning would be repeated rounds of the doxy? too much antibiotic treatment concerns me also.

I read that in order to be antigen detectible that there has to be at least 6 to 9 mature worms and at least 3 of those must be female. But there may be more sensitive tests used currently according to the A.H.S.. I don’t know how many he could have at the upper end. And we know that if the microfilaria test is correct that there are both males and females. We are supposed to be getting another ice/snow storm tonight and through tommorrow, they’re saying the roads are extremely slick already, but if I can get out tommorrow, I’m going to take him to the Vetco clinic (at Petco) for another HW antigen check.

The vet said I could always later change HWP’s, and with only a 30 day gap but I don’t think he meant during treatment. I think it would concern me going from moxidectin to ivermectin. I researched this before, but just going off the top of my head for now. Ivermectin has a short half life, it seems maybe 6 or 8 hours or something like that. It’s rapidly metabolized by the liver, after a day it’s mostly gone, and after a couple of days it’s nearly completely gone.

The way I understand it, the topical moxidectin builds up gradually to levels before tapering off to more constant levels (3 to 4 months.) During that period and supposedly even on the first dose it goes to work on L3, L4, and even immature L5, and supposedly it works well on those, the proponents say better than the others, and with a narrower suceptibility gap. But evidently it isn’t so effective on microfilaria (L1) until it accumulates for some reason. It seems to me that if moxi takes that much time to build up, it would also take a long time to completely leave the system, so I am surmising that it would probably be fairly easy to switch from ivermectin to moxidectin, but maybe not vice versa, because, even after a month of nothing, I think there would still be substantial moxidectin in the system, and then to be adding something else (ivermectin).

AHS guidelines about seasonal preventative usage;
“To be maximally effective, heartworm prophylaxis should be given year-round, but if seasonal treatment is chosen, administration should begin at least one month prior to the anticipated start of heartworm transmission and should continue for at least 3 months after transmission typically ceases. The latter 3-month recommendation emanates from new knowledge regarding resistant strains, which showed that extended treatment after exposure is required to prevent infection. Current data demonstrate that not all compounds and formulations necessitate this extension.” ( they may be referring to
moxidectin here?)

I think Ivermectin will cause a very rapid die-off of L1 microfilaria which is not usually desired in cases where the L1 count is moderate or high, due to risk of severe reaction, so the slower kill off of L1 could be an advantage with moxi. I think I read somewhere that is actually the only one FDA approved as a microfilaricide.

A.H.S. guidelines;
” Topical moxidectin is now FDA-approved for use in heartworm-positive dogs to eliminate microfilariae. No adverse reactions due to high microfilarial counts were observed in the
laboratory or field studies conducted for approval of this label claim.”

also they say this about other combos with doxy may have similar results as the ivermectin/doxy combo. for weakening the adults, but only going by anecdotal reports;

“Select macrocyclic lactones coupled with doxycycline individually suppress embryogenesis
and weaken adult heartworms. As mentioned previously doxycycline reduces Wolbachia levels in all stages of heartworms. Studies have shown that administration of doxycycline in combination with ivermectin provided more rapid adulticidal activity than ivermectin alone as well as more efficiently reducing Wolbachia numbers more effectively than doxycycline alone. Anecdotal reports on other macrocyclic lactones with adulticidal properties suggest similar results but no confirmatory studies have been published.”

“In cases where arsenical therapy is not possible or is contraindicated, the use of a monthly heartworm preventive along with doxycycline at 10 mg/kg BID for a 4-week period might be considered. An antigen test should be performed every 6 months and the dog not considered cleared until two consecutive negative heartworm antigen tests have been obtained. If the dog is still antigen positive after one year, repeat the doxycycline therapy. Exercise should be rigidly restricted for the duration of the treatment process.”

Shawna, Dr. Garner is a big proponent of advantage multi, and he advocates and uses a similar protocol as what my vet is recommending (excepting all the prednisone), and also as the AHS guidelines. You can see my vets protocol in my initial post. I realize now, his was the HW surgery video I watched. I EMailed him with some questions, including one about using advantage multi/doxy in a slow kill, hopefully he will find time to reply. If you get a chance could you take a look. Maybe you can tell me your opinion about using multi/doxy in either the full 3 treatment immiticide plan or the slow kill possibilty using multi/doxy. As of now I’m leaning towards the fast kill, but at the very least I need to decide quickly which monocyclic lactone (moxidectin,ivermectin, or?) to get him on. Then I can decide more from there.

Heartworm Treatment Dogs

Thnx Shawna!

[ChiribayaShepherd]

As someone who works in a vet clinic I strongly recommend getting your dog or cat microchipped. In less than a year we have had a least 6 dogs brought in with no ID but a microchip and got them reunited, including one who had been missing for about a week and was about an hour drive away from home. I have had plenty of calls of people reporting their dog missing with no tags on but a microchip, only to call in a few hours later that someone had found the dog or cat and taken it somewhere where it was scanned and they were able to get their pet back home. I just had one of those calls

today

I can only imagine how many pets are reunited at the shelter.

Yes the needle is not tiny, but plenty of pets get on just fine having it done. Some pets will yowl in fear/pain at anything you do. Having it done during a routine surgery such as a spay or neuter is a good idea if you’re concerned about the pain.

While it seems a legitimate concern not to microchip your laboratory rat, even the staunchest opponents list single digits of cases of dogs and cats who had a chip in or near their sarcoma as their “evidence”, some of which are cancer prone breeds, out of the millions of pets who are microchipped each year. While heartbreaking for their owners, this less than one in a million, doctors acknowledge that the presence of a foreign body may have triggered the cancer but that does not show causation that the microchip would be of special concern over another type of foreign body. Two of the cases listed aren’t even cancer related, but due to human error in injecting the microchip improperly. More pets have developed sarcomas from vaccines.

Not knowing who has what scanner, or an owner’s failure to to update the registration is not a reason not to do it, it’s a reason to have better scanners and for owners, veterinary practices and shelters to be more vigilant in keeping records up to date.

Nobody realizes their dog or cat could escape from where they escaped from until it does. I didn’t know my dog could run down a cliff that was at least a 50 degree angle until he was 150 feet down it; owners don’t know their dog can scale an 8 foot fence until it already has; or that their indoor cat would bolt past them that one time after years of showing no interest in that door. And trying to grab a breakaway collar to catch them means it should, well, break away! How is that a fail-safe way to keep an ID on a dog exactly?

Microchipping is not a “false” sense of security, and for every dog with a chip that couldn’t be read, there are hundreds if not thousands who never get back home because their owners didn’t microchip their pets in the first place.

[losul]

Betsy, Thnx much, all the words and support definitely helped me get through my initial shock and panic stage. I made the mistake of watching that video the other day, Dr. Turner I think, where he surgically removed 86 1 foot long worms from that poor dogs heart, and all I could think was I wanted those friggin things out of Turbo NOW.

I should have been paying more attention to all the talk a few months ago about the HW preventatives. I think it was on the off topic thread and went on for a week or two. I’m going to have to look for that discussion and read it.

I was lame to think I would just casually keep doing what I had been doing and my dog wouldn’t ever get heartworms. As much as I hate it, once Turbo is cleared I will probably have to keep him on preventative year round, on the full dosage, and maybe even checked 2X year, I can’t ever risk this happening again. There are alot of mosquitos here, I’m considered within the Mississippi valley, and part of my property is within a flood plain, actually the majority is now included in the flood plain, since they remapped after the Great Flood. Probably the mosquitos aren’t near so bad in your area.

Shawna, I hope I can manage to make the right decisions going forward. Thnx

About the Dr Byron Blaghorn that my vet mentioned. I found that yes he has an impressive bio, but I wasn’t so impressed by the study he conducted. The study was limited in size, they tested 4 different HWP’s and found that Advantage multi was the only one that had 100% efficacy against 1 certain strain of HW larvae after a single dosage. Apparently that strain has never again been found in the wild, and apparently it was not even the supposed resistant strains found in the Mississippi river delta and valley. The study was paid for by Bayer Pharma and I understand that the Dr. also received a fee from Bayer. Bayer publicized this study ALL over the place, but they didn’t publicize the fact that all 4 HWP’s had 100% efficacy after 3 doses.

I’m not sold on advantage multi. And I don’t like the included flea insecticide. I get so much conflicting information, which do I believe?
I can’t find any info on multi and doxy alone being used in a slow kill method, and not sure on it’s effectiveness at weakening/killing adult worms or it’s actual reliability to clear microfilariae. So much conflicting info. Plus I’m not sold on it’s safety. Is it better to use a drug that accumulates and builds up in the body (moxidectin) or one that does it’s job quickly and leaves the body rather quickly (such as ivermectin)?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[losul]

Shawna, I assure you I am going to go over all the information you and all the others have graciously provided, and take everything into consideration. It’s been hectic and I’m an airhead, exhausted yet so wired with all the coffee and tea. So bear with me, if I can’t get back right away. I have some posts to get to on the off topic board also

I will say this much for now, I had another lengthy phone conversation with the vet and he has set my mind at ease on a number of points. Don’t worry about the rabies vaccine fore now, we have some weeks grace, if I’m still concerned he will help me in seeking an exemption.

He still will not advise the ivermectin as a slow kill at all, nada. He is however quite agreeable to trying an advantage multi/doxycycline slower kill without immiticide. The drug companies won’t and don’t exactly tell them this, nor are their actual studies showing this, (should I be repeating this?), but in his own experience and anecdotal evidence from others are that in general, the worms are cleared within 9 to 12 months in this way is what he told me. It takes longer than with the immiticide and is absolutely not without it’s own risks either though. He would not remain infective to others, nor would he be able to be re-infected. Because they have to give the advantage plus at least 2 months prior to immiticide treatment anyway, I would have that much time to decide whether to go through with the immiticide, except that they usually then give the doxy under a different schedule. They said the worst reaction they have personally expierenced to the immiticide is a welt. He told me they have on average about 2 or so HW cases/month. He is pressing for the the Advantage multi, but I don’t think it is just because his clinic sells it, I think he believes in it. He also said I could later change it to something else if need be. It’s not really priced horrible – 6 for $99.99 plus 3 “free.” I already have a “complimentary” tube.

He gave me the name of a supposedly renowned expert in field who is very much a proponent of advantage multi, and I think he said he wrote some papers on it for The American Heartworm Sociey. Dr Byron Blagburn. I haven’t had time to look for anything about this yet, just some general info;

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/faculty/pathobiology-faculty/blagburn#.UxEimfldXeU

He also said I could wait until Monday to start the Advant if I was concerned about some possible kind of reaction while their clinic was closed. He said the only reaction they have persomnally seen is some itching after application at the site, that quickly subsides in about 10 or so minutes.

He was not opposed to taking X-rays, and thought if not neccesary it could still be a good ideal, it was just that most people don’t and want to keep expenses to a minimum. They have a professional radiologist look at them, he only comes in once a month, but they could be sent to him (extra charge of course) for faster results.

This vet is not the senior vets ( which are a married couple) at this office, he was a 2000 graduate. But the vet office and their vets came highly recommended to me by several people. He might not have extensive expierience, but so far, I do like him. Very easy to talk to and get along with, seems like a vet that continues to seek an share knowledge and wants to grow that knowledge. Yet I am still thconsidering about that 2nd opinion or at least another HW test elsewhere. I called some and couldn’t get an appointment before mid-week. I found out Vetco – those traveling clinics that usually appear once a week in Petco stores can do a HW test Sunday at Petco, but not exactly crazy about going that route. There wouldn’t be any second opinion there. Yet I might just do it to confirm and it would get done and with results Sunday.

The baffling trembling episodes are still very troubling to me, but no reoccurences.

Melissa, Thanks so much for the support, your input and your expieriences I have calmed some finally now and I am going to take a day to think things over. I’m going to try and shut my eyes soon 🙂

Patty, I think going by the records I showed him, he said the infection likely couldn’t bhave been more than a 1 1/2 years ago, but not sure on I recall correctly. Thank you Patty, I really appreciate the kind words.

[Shawna]

I just posted this to HDM on the regular site but thought you might not see it..

“The doxy makes the worms sterile so resistance shouldn’t be an issue with any worms picked up from the doxy treated dog. One of the benefits of giving doxy is that it makes the dog no longer infective to other dogs.

From heartwormsociety.org “Microfilariae from dogs treated with doxycycline that were ingested by mosquitoes developed into third-stage larvae that appeared to be normal in appearance and motility, but these larvae were not able to develop into adult worms, thus reducing the risk of selecting for resistant sub-populations.” http://www.heartwormsociety.or…

I see advantages to the fast kill as well as slow kill methods. I personally would use the slow kill with SP Canine Cardiac Support and herbs mentioned in Dr. Goldsteins book for heartworm treatment plus. But I understand Losul’s desire to get the worms out as soon as possible too… And Turbo seems to be a good candidate for the fast kill method when doxy and heatguard (or another form) are used first to lessen the risks of immiticide treatment.

I’d give raw eggs to keep glutathione levels up. Cardiac support by giving an organ supplement or giving organic heart. I like Standard Process because it has anti-inflammatory factors that work specific to the organ being used for as well as “food” for the specific organ. Anti-inflamatories like turmeric. I personally would give small amounts of garlic and use probiotics regularly. etc etc etc Chlorella is an excellent detoxer.

Edit — been a HORRIBLY busy at work last few days.. I’ve missed much of what has been discussed :(..”

Another thing to consider is that although nobody wants to get that diagnosis, it is really not as bad as some try to make it. You caught it early. Even before symptoms appeared. He has every chance of doing well no matter which way you go. After re-reading your post I do see where your vet is recommending doxy and heartworm before the immiticide. That makes me feel more comfortable with his recommendation!!! 🙂

Here’s a link that may not provide new info but hopefully will take a little of the scare out of the diagnosis.. This is naturopathic vet Dr. Jeannie Thomason’s site http://www.thewholedog.org/heartworm.html

PS — I found several folks that had dogs with a minor infection like Turbo’s. One said her dog was free of heartworm nine months after starting the slow kill method. Some of the results you are hearing from could be from immune compromised dogs as well. Turbo is way ahead of the pack in that regards. That is also why I would be less freaked about the fast kill method for him!!! You’re a good puppy parent and Turbo has every chance of having no complications because of it.

I’ve always read to use ivermectin when doing slow kill. I’d do more research before choosing slow kill and anything but ivermectin. A quick google search says this about moxidectin “Ivermectin is the medication most commonly used to kill the microfilaria (larval stage.) There are other medications that will kill them (such as milbemycin) but ivermectin kills more slowly. When too many microfilaria die at once, it can cause shock and collapse for the dog. Thus, ivermectin is preferred because of the slower kill rate. Other products like selamectin and moxidectin do not kill the microfilaria efficiently enough to clear them reliably. Fortunately, ivermectin is available in several monthly heartworm preventive medications. Examples are Heartgard ®, Tri-Heart® and others.” http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/a/CW-HeartwormTreatments.htm

Of course, one comment on vetmedicine site is not enough to base something like this on but do research more before deciding. I’ll try to check it out too.

Did you ask him his reasoning for recommending the rabies vacc at this time? Is it that he is not aware of the problems, disagrees that problems could arise, thinks they are overstated or what? Does your state allow exemptions? Why not put it off?

Here’s data from several people that have actually USED the slow kill method and cleared heartworm. And likely these are dogs that are nowhere near as healthy as Turbo however I don’t know that. Just a guess. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?365271-Slow-Kill-Heartworm-treatment

It’s also the method that most rescue use around here. And again I would try to get Dave’s Hounds input. BUT, when it really comes down to it you will do what you think is best for Turbo and EVERYONE here that is truly your friend will support your decision because we all know that you are the one that has to live with that decision not us… We all will support you no matter what your choice. And as stated before, I think Turbo is a good candidate for the immiticide option as he is young, healthy and has the right person in his corner!!!!!!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 1 month ago by Shawna.

[Shawna]

Hi Losul,

SOOOO sorry to hear about Turbo’s issues :(…

Here is what Dr. Becker says about heartworm treatment (and no, what your vet recommended is not the slow kill method).
“As it turns out, low-dose ivermectin therapy in dogs with no sensitivity to the drug, in combination with the antibiotic doxycycline, can be an extremely effective, inexpensive option for treating heartworm infection.

The cost was about 50-75 percent cheaper than Immiticide and all four cases of infection cleared beautifully.

The only time I’ll consider using Immiticide in the future (once it becomes available), is when I have an ivermectin-sensitive patient.” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/11/22/cheaper-safer-therapy-for-heartworm.aspx

Dave’s Hounds has been using the slow kill treatment with his older, adopted Hound Dog and things, last reported, seem to be going well. Might be worth talking with him!!!!

Mary Straus at Dog Aware website has some fantastic information on heartworm and the slow kill method. Doxy basically makes the worms sterile which prevents the existing ones from reproducing. Since your vet says stage 1 there assumably aren’t an overload of them. Steralizing the ones that are there would be a good idea. Doxy also makes it so Turbo can’t infect any other dogs. Doxy also kills the bacteria that hitches a ride w/ the heartworm. It is thought that the bacteria, called wolbachia, die off is what causes a lot of the dangers with the fast kill method. As well as clogging due to mass die off of the worms. You can pulse the doxy and ivermectin for a few months and then do the immiticide or you can stay on the doxy/ivermectin long term from my understanding.

“These studies clearly indicate that treatment with a combination of weekly ivermectin and daily doxycycline given intermittently will sterilize the heartworms, prevent the dog from being infectious to other dogs, speed up the death of the worms prior to (or in place of) Immiticide treatment, limit inflammation and damage caused by the worms’ presence, and reduce the chance of serious adverse reaction from Immiticide treatment.” http://dogaware.com/articles/newsheartworm.html

And more on dogaware http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjheartwormtreatment.html

He’s young and strong enough that he could probably handle the immiticide but if the slow kill is just as effective without as many complications…….. At the very least, do a round of doxy and ivermectin BEFORE the immiticide.

I can not believe the vet would recommend a rabies shot knowing that Turbo has heartworm AND wanting to do the immiticide treatment??? That’s just asking for trouble in my opinion. Just my opinion though….

I did not know that heartguard should not be refrigerated? Thanks for mentioning that in your post!

I would also consider giving, or continuing, supportive care such as giving high quality probiotics, anti-inflammatories etc. I would also suggest looking into a product called Canine Cardiac Support by Standard Process. Here’s a brief primer on it but more can be found (or even call the company) http://www.animalrehabstlouis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/cardiac_support.pdf

I have no suggestions or ideas for the trembling… 🙁

I personally would get a second opinion before starting heartworm treatment be it slow or fast kill. I would simply need that piece of mind. I wouldn’t tell the new clinic that he had already been found positive either..

[aimee]

Hi losul,

First I’m so sorry for what you and your dog are going through. I myself have nightmares that I get that dreaded call in which I’m told my dog has heartworms. I know that giving less of the pill and less frequently than recommended is likely playing heavily on your mind. In actuality we don’t know what role that played as sometimes dogs on full prevention protocols come up positive too.

I’m sure this is scarey. I’ll try an answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Do you need a second opinion? If you want to look further, have a different type of test done vs a different vet who may be using the same brand test. There can be false positives on a heartworm test, but they are rare.

The fact that they saw microfilaria kinda clinches the diagnosis. There are other microfilaria that can be seen in blood, Dipetalonema comes to mind and a parasitologist can likely identify them for you. The sample may need to be sent to a university vet school. But really the chance you have both a false positive and a different type of microfilaria seems unlikely …I think you would be grasping at straws …

Should you consider slow kill? I’ll give you my opinion for what it is worth, I wouldn’t. I can’t put my hand on it at this moment. Will look for it if you want but as I remember in dogs treated with slow kill considerable ongoing lung damage occurred UNLESS the dogs were on complete exercise restriction for the entire duration. Your dog is young, I’m guessing active, and would be difficult to keep continually crated for nearly a year plus(?) of his life. There also is some speculation that slow kill may be contributing to resistance. Unless your dog is clear of microfilaria during a slow kill treatment ( meaning your dog has microfilaria because of your dosing and not strain) your dog will be infecting others with a resistant strain and spreading resistance.

Should you use moxidectin? So far as I know of only one study that compared efficacy head to head and moxidectin was more effective when given as a single dose. Time will tell if that holds: one study one strain. The moxidectin treated dogs didn’t develop heartworm with only one dose post exposure whereas dogs given 1 dose ivermectin or milbemycin did develop worms. Dogs given 3 monthly doses of milbemycin post exposure were also clear. As I recall this test was done with a strain thought to have resistance.

Moxidectin is also the drug in Pro Heart injections. Is a continuous yet decreasing amount of moxidectin as effective as monthly peak doses? I don’t have any answers for you, I think though it has failed whereas the monthly topical has not due to higher blood concentrations with monthly pulse doses.

I’ve noted on Trifexis (milbemycin) commercials it states to give for 3 months post exposure whereas Sentinal Spectum (milbemycin) has upped that to 6 monthly doses post exposure. For now my dogs get milbemycin, same day each month year round. If I lived in heartworm land… southern states where resistance is being seen I’d choose moxidectin. Likely if my vet was saying moxidectin topical I’d go with it trusting that he/she understands the local strains. I don’t mess around with heartworm prevention.

The preventatives I can think of are ivermectin ( heartgard and others), selamectin( Revolution) milbemycin( sentinal, trifexis,) moxidectin( advantage multi, proheart) diethylcarbamazine (daily still available???)

Should you vaccinate? This is beyond my ability to answer. I think your vet is the best person to answer this one.

Trembling/ fearful…. two things come to mind: pain and fear unrelated to pain. Fears can be to unusual scents, sounds (electrical equipment, ultrasonic, rodents etc ) Pain… any lip licking swallowing drooling that might help you pinpoint it?
.
Again I’m so sorry you are going through this…your vet is the best one to help you through this. The American Heartworm Society guidelines are written as they are for a reason…. If it was me I’d make use of them: 3 injections and doxy. Best of luck

[losul]

I just discovered Tuesday evening that our dog Turbo has heartworm infection. It came as a huge shock, as i thought I was being meticulous with his care and his diet. Almost as bad, I am probably to blame for it, and I am sickened and upset by this. I was using
Heartguard+ chewables. I was trying to minimize his toxin exposure, so I didn’t give year round, just for the approximately 7 months mosquito season, and every 35 days instead of 30. Also, because Turbo is 34 pounds and I had the box for 26-50lbs, I was only giving him 2/3 of the chew. Lastly I was keeping the HG in the refrigerator, and now I found out that HG isn’t supposed to be refrigerated and they can’t guarantee the efficacy when refrigerated. I just called them and reported the case to them, telling them all the truth about the situation.

I don’t want to write our life story, sorry about the lengthy post, I’m just trying to get all the info out, so I can hopefully get some good advice to help me make the best decisions. Turbo is approximately 32 months old, 34 pounds, a boston terrier mix, we think maybe mixed with staffordshire or pit, but almost certainly mixed with some kind of bully type. We adopted him from our County’s Animal control about 1.5 years ago. He spent somewhere around 1/2 of the first 14 months of his life in 2 different sessions at the County shelter, and evidently 1 session at a City shelter. It was the first dog we have had in about 7 years, after having had many previously, for most of my life. We were out of the loop on most things dog, so I got very studied up on it, wanting to do things as right as possible, before we even started looking for another dog. I knew the type ( boston terrier or mix) I wanted and knew that I would put him on a raw diet before we even got him, and so be it, within 3 or 4 weeks we had him on about a 60% raw, 40% commercial diet, with no problems ever, except some gas for awhile.

Turbo is very handsome, charming, and playful, but can be rude, stubborn, very assertive, sometimes defiant. We love him the way he is, he’s always been a joy, and no real problems at all, except some assertion/agression (not fearful aggression) towards certain dogs, usually only the largest dogs or bully types. He’s completely different (quirks) than any other dog we’ve ever had, but for us, he’s really a perfect fit, and is always well behaved in the house.

We’ve been in search of a great dog Vet since we got Turbo. Tuesday’s visit was the 4th different vet. I had set up an appointment ahead of time for his upcoming rabies shot, and to test the waters with a new (and hopefully permanent) vet. In the meantime Turbo had a really strange and scary issue that happened Saturday evening and lasting into Sunday. An hour or so after he had his Saturday evening meal, and totally not typical, he began “hiding” in a corner of the house, or he would go to either the basement door or the back door. We take him through the basement into the garage when we go in the car. He goes out the back door into our yard. He also started very visibly trembling, looking very sheepish, and scared. He would not take a treat at all, so totally untypical of him. Once outside, he did not want to come back in at all, wanting to lay on a chair on the deck instead, even though it was quite cold and he doesn’t like cold for long. We’d make him come back in only to do the same again. Sitting in the corner at the end of the hall or at the basement door or the back door. He acted like he just wanted to be out of the house and maybe even away from us, seemed afraid of me for no reason, and the trembling hard, very scary. So not typical, Turbo has NEVER been fearful of anything that I know of, but he just did NOT want to be in the house at all. I eventually took him for a short car ride, and he seemed to have perked up some. So we got back into the house just a little bit reluctantly. He then took a treat fairly eagerly, but after taking a second one, he suddenly just dropped it and ran away to the corner again. The trembling and strange behavior again too. We nearly took him to the emergency clinic. It later subsided though, and eventually he went to bed right beside me, where I watched him the rest of the night. He seemed to sleep well. Next day, just a little more of the same scary stuff, and then he ate his typical raw morning meal. Soon after eating he started acting better throughout the day (Sunday). He never vomited nor had diarrhea nor showed any obvious pain through the whole ordeal.

Baffled, I spent most of Sunday researching the trembling symptoms. Nothing seemed really to fit at all, but I was concerned about problems like kidney/liver. I contemplated all sorts of things such as Lyme or tickborne illness ( he had a tick on his ear that I didn’t catch right away, it was November and we had already had several hard freezes. The tick left a pea sized nodule that lasted about two months. Friday evening he chewed on a cow hoove awhile until I took it away from him, because he had broken off a rather large sharp shard. Saturday morning he had his typical raw meal, but his evening meal was not quite as typical. Usually he gets 2/3 cup kibble matched with 1/3 of a can food, or 3/4 cup kibble and an egg, or sardines. This time I gave him less than 1/2 cup kibble + about 4 ounces of canned salmon + 1 egg cooked in coco oil, and i added about 1/2 t of nutritional yeast. i think I’ve added a very small amount of yeast to his raw mix before, but not completely sure. So thoughts of a bad reaction to the yeast also came into play, along with thoughts of too much fat at once. Even the thought of a ghost in the house came up.

Monday morning I called the vets office an\d told them I thought we needed to put the rabies shot on hold, and instead get him checked and do some blood work to get to the bottom of this. Tues evening: I explained everything to the techs and the vet as best I could, even that I home prepped over 1/2 of his diet. He asked me what I was feeding him and I told him him briefly, just didn’t come out and say”raw”, but I think he knew it. He didn’t ask if raw and seemed satisfied with what I was feeding and supplementing. This
vet spent alot of time with us, well over an hour, didn’t admonish for anything, wasn’t arrogant in the least, didn’t “push” anything , and so far I think I like him O.K. He examined Turbo and was pleased with his apparent health. So he didn’t push any lab work at all. I still elected to go with an outside lab wellness blood work, along with an in house tick borne illness and heartworm check.

I was floored when they came back and said he was both pos on the antigen and microfiliae HW tests. He was negative on the tickborne. He explained the clinic’s HW protocol; 1) monthly HW preventative for 2 months prior to treatment, and continuing throughout treatment and beyond. 2)Doxycycline. for 2 weeks prior to treatment.3) first immiticide treatment (injection); dexamethasone injection, tramadol injection. Hospital overnight, strict confinement until returning for next treatment.4) doxycycline again for 2 weeks prior to immiticide treatment. 5) 2nd immiticide treatment. ( 2 injections 24 hours apart), dexamethasone and tramadol injections given daily with each treatment. Hospitalized for 3 days and 2 nights. strict confinement at home 30 days 6) Heartworm check 6 months afdter last immiticide injection to confirm elimination of heartworms.

He also explained the clinic’s preferred HW preventative – Advantage multi – a topical application, (imidacloprid for fleas which Turbo does not have + moxidectin, the HW preventative, which is supposedly absorbed through the skin). I didn’t even realize they had a topical for HW. I told him I would rather not use an insecticide for fleas that he didn’t need. He said alternatives (such as heartguard) could be used but may not be as effective, in his opinion. I then mentioned that I recalled hearing about a “slow kill” method. He seemed a little stunned, and said that that method was actually more dangerous, wasn’t as reliable and it could take much longer if it even worked. I again expressed my concern about all the toxins, especially the arsenic/immiticide.

He didn’t think the trembling episode was HW related at all, although he didn’t offer any real explanation for it. Also he thought it would be fine for him to go ahead and get the rabies vaccination, or I could wait for the outside lab’s bloodwork results in a day or 2. I told him we would definitely wait.
—–

Here’s where I need advice;

Do you think I should get another HW test from another vet along with a second opinion?

Should I consider a slow kill method vs the clinic’s protocol?

Should I use heartguard or another ivermection based HWP vs the advantage multi, moxidectin based? Is their any other moxidectin based without other insecticides included? Is there another one more effective than the others? Are there any other HWP’s using some different drug altogether?

Should I continue to put on hold the rabies vaccination? if I put off more than a few more days, then he will be past due again, will probably only be able to get the 1 yr vs the 3 yr, and would have to be re-vaccinated again in a year.

Does anyone have anyone input about what could cause the trembling episode?

Any other opinions/advice?

———–

Update: The vet called with the bloodwork results. Everything looked “perfectly normal” he especially stressed the liver and kidney values, the blood cell and platelet counts and values, thyroid, and some other things I don’t recall now, I don’t have a copy yet. What a big relief on that much. I had some more questions to ask, such as should he have X-rays, ultrasound, etc. He could, but didn’t think neccesary nor did he advise it. I asked about the microfilariae count, he said a fair amount? Somewhere I had read about the 3 classes of HW infections. I asked what “class” his condition would be, he replied definitely class 1, which I saw described somewhere (going by memory)as asymptomatic to mild, no radiologic signs, nor signs of anemia. He still encouraged going ahead with the rabies vacination, and strongly urged getting started on the advantage multi soon. But he seemed much more amenable now to a slow kill method, maybe along with doxycycline, before I even asked again, even seemed to kind of go along with it, though he still didn’t recomend it, he still recomended their protocol. He also expressed concern that these worms may be resistant to ivermectin, and it could take a very long time to kill them using it. So he again really encouraged using their Advantage multi. I guess this multi is a new thing.

——-

Any advice/opinions would be very much appreciated, as I’m feeling lost and very worried over this. I think my questions still remain the same after getting the blood work results.

[jakes mom]

Here’s my 2 cents on the vaccination issue. I’ve had a lot of cats, right now I’m down to just 5. Three 12 year old siblings, a 14 year old and my old guy is 18. When I get a new cat I get to the vet asap and the cat gets an exam and any worming, etc needed. He gets a series of core vaccines, then, since my guys are indoor only, get boosters every 3 years or so. Latest info I’ve read is that the protection seems to be lasting about 3 years. I don’t think it’s necessary to do it every year, plus the more vacc, the more chance of a vacc. related sarcoma.You can also get the cat’s blood tested to check the titer. If it’s still high no need for a booster. Good luck, hope you catch the little guy! He’d be lucky to have you!

[Dori]

My Maltese, Hannah, weights 8 lbs. She’s not the one with the allergies. My allergy dog is Katie, 7 lb. champagne color Maltipoo. Poor thing is or I should say was a real mess. More problems than any one dog should have. Have you looked on line to see what you can get? Also the Pet Supermarket probably has better stuff also. It’s time consuming because you’ll need to read the ingredients listed. Just try to find something that has the least amount of ingredients in it and that you can actually recognize what they are. Also try to find one that says it’s soap less. Not sure why Bentley would have the oily problem after shampooing and not the others. But maybe you can get a shampoo that works for Bentley and not use it on the other two that don’t have the skin issues. Does he have food issues? If so, what is he allergic or intolerant to? It’s exhausting and time consuming trying to find things that dogs with intolerances to food and environment can deal with. Took me 4 years to get Katie to a level where she’s happy, healthy. No more scratching, sores, bad breath, bad gas. There were times I thought it would never happen but I just kept lists of everything I fed her so that every time I had a problem with something I would try to figure out the offending ingredients whether it was food or shampoo. The shampoo issue was the last thing that I finally figured out. I was even trying prescription shampoos which were ridiculously expensive and did not help at all. I also found that she was having issues with the laundry detergents so I switched everything to dye free fragrance free. I no longer burn candles in the house. Nothing that can possibly bother her. Like I said. It’s been like a full time job and exhausting. But when I see her now I know it was worth all the work.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Akari-
Did you get the cat yet. Was your friend able to catch him? Honestly, I’ve never been very diligent about getting my cats vaccinated. After hanging out on this site for a while now, I think I’m glad. Mine are strictly indoor now. But, in the past I had indoor/outdoor cats and didn’t always keep up on shots after their initial ones and never had any problem. But, I certainly don’t want to make any recommendations to you as I don’t know enough about it, other than my experience. Also wanted to remind you to try and stay away from fish based kibble and fish based canned food as much as possible. My senior cat was recently diagnosed with hyperthyroidism and feeding too much iodine from mostly fish seems to be a common cause for it. There was actually some talk about it today on the off-topic thread on the review side of this site. Have fun!

[USA]

I started a topic in the off topic forum about microchipping. It never showed up in the column on the left so I will post it here.

Microchipping was something I used to think all dogs should have done. This was a long time ago when AVID was the only one making chips for dogs. The chips were all on the 125 kHz frequency and there was only one scanner to read them.

Then Home Again started making microchips for dogs that were also on the 125 kHz frequency but then they made a 125 kHz microchip that was encrypted so the AVID scanner would not read a microchip if it was an encrypted chip from Home Again!

Then an ISO (International Standards Organization) microchip was introduced in Europe that was on the 134.2 kHz frequency and this was going to be the international standard for microchips in pets. Too bad the USA never made it our standard also.

The original scanners that AVID made and gave away to thousands of shelters and rescue groups in the USA could only read AVID’s original chip. It couldn’t read the Home Again encrypted 125 kHz chip or the new 134.2 kHz European chip.

Now people were getting their dogs microchipped and shelters and local animal controls with older scanners were NOT ABLE TO DETECT that the dog had a microchip!!!

Then Banfield the PetSmart Vet came out with the ISO 134.2 kHz microchip in the USA.

Dogs were being euthanized who HAD microchips but whatever scanner the shelter had was unable to read whatever chip the dog had. Yes, there are universal scanners that are able to detect but not read ALL microchips. But who knows what scanner YOUR local shelter and animal control have?

If the frequency mess was not enough a link has now been established between implanted microchips and a certain type of cancer called a Sarcoma.

Yes there’s more, the needle used to implant a microchip is NOT a tiny needle. The non-profit I work with used to microchip dogs for free. Toy breeds were the dogs who did the worst being chipped. About half of the small dogs would SCREAM when being chipped and the Bichon and Maltese types with the tender skin would have visible holes in their skin and be very tender at the injection site, sometimes for days.

We have seen dogs with 2 chips who were microchipped without the Vet or Vet tech finding the original chip, we have seen many chipped dogs who after being adopted the new family never registered the microchip so even though the dogs had a chip we were unable to locate their current home.

Conclusion: I no longer recommend people get their pets microchipped. It could lead you into a false sense of security where you think your dog will be returned home in an emergency but it will not. And the sarcoma link just puts the risks too high for the meager benefits IN MY OPINION.

Secure your yard gates with locks, put signs up on the gates letting people know you have dogs inside, put an ID on a breakaway collar (yes they make them for dogs). Find ways of making sure your loved ones are not lost in the first place and make sure they are have some kind of ID that can be physically read in an emergency.

Sorry for the bad news!!!

[Fatcakes]

This is great, thank you all so much. My house smells like an aquarium now but totally worth it. We have gotten rid of all treats, etc that have chicken, and also are switching the cats to Orijin. Origin and THK treats, with some egg, pumpkin, sardines, and coconut oil rotated in here and there as well (not all of this has been implemented yet for the sake of his digestive tract and my carpet). I don’t think he has a fish allergy as the only improvement I saw was after starting the fish oil supplement. Love the spreadsheet idea, too! He loves his Beam treats and new food. I can’t wait to see if this fixes the dandruff. I swear his fur is already getting softer…

[crazy4cats]

Hi-
Yes, pure balance is made by Ol’ Roy. But I think it is much better quality. I use the canned food regularly. It’s a great value. There is an active thread on this food on the review side of this site. You may find it helpful.

[USA]

Microchipping was just mentioned in the Harness or Collar thread and I thought it deserved its own topic.

Microchipping was something I used to think all dogs should have done. This was a long time ago when AVID was the only one making chips for dogs. The chips were all on the 125 kHz frequency and there was only one scanner to read them.

Then Home Again started making microchips for dogs that were also on the 125 kHz frequency but then they made a 125 kHz microchip that was encrypted so the AVID scanner would not read a microchip if it was an encrypted chip from Home Again!

Then an ISO (International Standards Organization) microchip was introduced in Europe that was on the 134.2 kHz frequency and this was going to be the international standard for microchips in pets. Too bad the USA never made it our standard also.

The original scanners that AVID made and gave away to thousands of shelters and rescue groups in the USA could only read AVID’s original chip. It couldn’t read the Home Again encrypted 125 kHz chip or the new 134.2 kHz European chip.

Now people were getting their dogs microchipped and shelters and local animal controls with older scanners were NOT ABLE TO DETECT that the dog had a microchip!!!

Then Banfield the PetSmart Vet came out with the ISO 134.2 kHz microchip in the USA.

Dogs were being euthanized who HAD microchips but whatever scanner the shelter had was unable to read whatever ship the dog had. Yes, there are universal scanners that are able to detect but not read ALL microchips. But who knows what scanner YOUR local shelter and animal control have?

If the frequency mess was not enough a link has now been established between implanted microchips and a certain type of cancer called a Sarcoma

Yes there’s more, the needle used to implant a microchip is NOT a tiny needle. The non-profit I work with used to microchip dogs for free. Toy breeds were the dogs who did the worst being chipped. About half of the small dogs would SCREAM when being chipped and the Bichon and Maltese types with the tender skin would have visible holes in their skin and be very tender at the injection site, sometimes for days.

We have seen dogs with 2 chips who were microchipped without the Vet or Vet tech finding the original chip, we have seen many chipped dogs who after being adopted the new family never registered the microchip so even though the dogs had a chip we were unable to locate their current home.

Conclusion: I no longer recommend people get their pets microchipped. It could lead you into a false sense of security where you think your dog will be returned home in an emergency but it will not. And the sarcoma link just puts the risks too high for the meager benefits IN MY OPINION.

Secure your yard gates with locks, put signs up on the gates letting people know you have dogs inside, put an ID on a breakaway collar (yes they make them for dogs). Find ways of making sure your loved ones are not lost in the first place and make sure they are have some kind of ID that can be physically read in an emergency.

Sorry for the bad news!!!

[Naturella]

Fatcakes,

Hope we helped! I second everything Shasta said, from the pumpkin addition, to testing for food allergies, to the raw egg – Bruno will be getting one/week starting next Thursday! Also, I swear by coconut oil (make sure it is UNREFINED too though – extra virgin, cold-pressed, UNREFINED – it is the REAL deal) – miracle worker. 🙂 But the food you got sounds great, hope your boy likes it! And yay for fish, just hope he’s not allergic to it or something. Orijen is a great brand from what I read though! 🙂

I rotate Bruno’s food once his mix ends, which is about every 4 months or so. And I go through a few flavors/proteins of the same brand before I switch brands. Now he has enough food to last throughout March for sure, maybe even April. Next batch is Earthborn Holistic GF Coastal Catch (fish) mixed with Vets Choice HHE Original (chicken mostly, but other meals in there. Some grains too. Meh, I got it for free and it is 4-stars, so I’m good with it.), then Earthborn Holistic GF Great Plains Feast (bison and some lamb) mixed with Vets Choice HHE Lamb and Rice (I know. Rice. Not grain free. Oh well. There’s lamb in it too.), and then Earthborn Holistic GF Primitive Natural (chicken) mixed with Vets Choice HHE GF (chicken). THEN I have Victor Ultra Professional GF mixed with Back to Basics lined up, and then the Victor Yukon Salmon GF mixed with probably Back to Basics again. THEN I want to try Wellness Core. I think I have Bruno’s meal plan set for like 2 years to come, lol.

As for THK Beams – if you have any local boutiques that sell all-natural dehydrated chews (which is what the fish skins are), see if they have them in bulk – my closest pet boutique store sells them in a jar by the skin, and the big ones are just $1, and I can cut them in like 8 Bruno-sized skins! Bruno is a Jack Russel – (miniature?) Rat Terrier mix, @ around 1 year. I will claim April 1st as his Birthday. We are not 100% sure, he was found in some bushes… But was changing puppy teeth throughout August-September of last year… Any guesses on approximate Birthday? Anyone?

[Shasta220]

Sounds like you’ve already got some ideas for foods to try – I don’t know that many brands personally, so I usually say it’s safe to go with 4-5 star brands.

As for the skin. I wouldn’t expect a bath to help much, as soaps tend to strip the coat even more, unless they’re medicated and designed for dry skin (when my dog is super dry, I use an oil-based organic shampoo. Sometimes it’s almost too much though, and my dog doesn’t feel clean at all).

Some things to look into: possibly tests for food allergies? As almost all skin problems have something to do with food, sadly. It could be chicken, grains, tomatoes, fish, the list goes on. I’d try getting him on coconut oil – organic extra virgin cold pressed, about 1tbsp per 30lbs. That stuff has been known as a miracle worker around these parts! Salmon oil is very good, too. Keep that up, 🙂

Fiber additions – most people add a big spoonful of pumpkin (canned is fine) to their dogs food. If there’s no improvement in his morning routine, then possibly try some probiotic supplements as well.

[Shasta220]

I’ve never done home made diets, so I’m terribly sorry – I’m not much help. I completely understand though, I have a cat who is ultra picky. She will not touch ANY type of commercial food (we’ve tried dry, canned, flaked, pouched, refrigerated, you name it, she’s turned her nose up at.). We tried offering her nothing but cat food for a week straight, and she probably would have completely starved herself, she would NOT touch it.

She’s picky about her food now even, so she doesn’t get the nutrition she needs, and it’s showing sadly… I’m jumping on this thread to see what some suggestions might be.

The only way I could think of hiding extra nutrition into their food is by grinding it. I know organ meats and raw bones are important in a balanced diet. Maybe buying a supplemental powder (just general vitamins probably) and try adding that, maybe start with just 1/2 day’s worth, as many animals can detect the smell of it and refuse. Omegas are always one of my favorite additions. My dogs get it with fish oils (salmon, sardine, krill, I think even algae would work), and raw eggs – your dogs may prefer the taste of cooked.

Just play around with how much you can get in there without it being too detected. Possibly try coconut oil as well, it has tons of benefits. Try offering them a teaspoon of organic extra virgin cold-pressed coconut oil. It’s great for their skin, fur, teeth, digestion, and pretty much everything else! Most dogs like it, too.

Hopefully you’ll be able to figure out something that works out perfectly. Have you tried commercial dehydrated, refridgorated, or raw foods? They already have balanced nutrients, so you wouldn’t need to worry about many supplements.

And yes, dog nutrition is very very confusing. Research and reading forums seems to make it worse, as everyone has their own opinions and experiences… Plus, every dog is different, so what works miracles for my dog might do absolutely nothing for yours. Just keep trying to gain information though, I’m sure you’ll slowly start figuring it out. (I’m new to nutrition myself, but the more I’m on here, the more I learn!)

[Susan]

My boy has I.B.D & Colitis, His vet has told me over & over, keep Patch on the same food do not change it, at first I thought WHAT & i’d give Patch something different & it wouldnt happen straight away maybe 1 week later, the vet explained if their bowel is sensitive, foods will irritate the bowel linning causeing the diarrhea, I noticed my boy cant have cooked rice but if its grounded in a kibble he can eat that kibble, I have to keep the fiber down & I noticed he cant have high protein kibbles, Just start reading which kibble seems to be good & doesnt upset their tummys, see what the protein fat & fiber % was & stick with around that % & just stick with the same flavour & brand for 3-4 months then maybe try a different flavour in the same brand that there doing well on..my vet told me 1 yr I have to keep my boy on the Eukanuba Intestinal then I can very slowly try adding a new food, some dogs just dont do well when their feed gets changed..also put them on a Probiotic this has really helped my boy but make sure u get a good one as there’s a few dodgy ones getting around that do nothing. I use Protexin & it must be kept in the fridge..

[InkedMarie]

Go to, I think, the diet and health forum here and read the stickie on feeding large breed puppies. I think the list of appropriate foods is on page 15 but maybe someone will post the link for you (I’m on my iPad & can’t)

[Shasta220]

If you’re not opposed to cooking for him, I’d highly recommend getting into a raw diet. I believe there are several brands of raw foods on here which already contain the proper amount of nutrients/supplements. The Honest Kitchen is one that I’m thinking of right now… I’d definitely check out the raw forums on here so you can get an idea. It’s very very overwhelming and confusing at first, but after a few days of researching and then a few weeks of perfecting your recipes, you’ll be good to go!
My favorite part about the raw diet is you know /exactly/ what goes into it. No more looking at long ingredient labels, or wondering “hmm…where was this protein sourced from?”

[Sue’s Zoo]

Hi Sharon,
My understanding is that in attempting to replicate the diet a dog would consume in the wild there are pieces that we just can’t/don’t do (i.e. fur, feathers, intestinal contents-not necessarily stomach as some things I read indicate they don’t eat the stomach-, etc) so some fruits/veggies/minerals help make up the difference. Steve Brown’s book provides tables showing all the essential nutrients and recipes that come close to providing the same–shows comparisons between NRC (National Research Council), Ancestral and their recipes. I’m currently running some calculations using an online database to help me check some of these things myself. It’s time consuming but it just feels like the right thing for me.

The more I read, the more I know…and the more complicated it becomes. Still waiting for that moment when it all seems to click and becomes easier…

[Sharon Buchanan]

I just posted this on another thread as part of a larger response. Thought I’d add it to the discussion here.

I’ve been giving Mystery garlic (pest control), and a vitamin C complex (gum health, immune support, antioxidant), from Springtime from the day I brought him home, that hasn’t changed now that he’s on raw. He’s also getting two 825mg capsules of curcumen (variety of cancers, inflammation, among many others), sprinkled on his food and about a tablespoon of coconut oil which I started him on for a skin condition that cleared up in a matter of weeks and continue to give him for a myriad of benefits. I may be adding krill oil to his list of supplements as well.

Patty ~ what’s a supergreen? 3? Is it important to find a bee pollen that is local the way one could get relief from seasonal allergies by eating local honey, or is any bee pollen good for the immune system? Since Mystery is on a full raw diet now, would whole herring, anchovies and sardines be better than the oils (note, I am considering krill oil but only if I can’t find a good source of raw fish)?

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
In answer to your question from the Large and Giant Breed Nutrition forum about raw sourcing:

I decided a few weeks ago that the best diet for Mystery would be raw. Having made that decision, I didn’t think I should wait just because I didn’t have a local source for meat so I started pounding around the raw food thread and large breed raw thread. I asked questions about how to start, what to feed… I knew I wasn’t interested in freeze-dried or frozen patties – my boy is going to eat “manly” meat, where I could find a reliable, trustworthy online place to get meat and poultry and any other essential real food to get me through a search period. Based on recommendations here, I chose My Pet Carnivore (MPC).

Since I would have to wait for my first shipment, I headed to the grocery store, picked up a non-GMO, organic whole chicken as well as some meat with bones in them. I pulled out my German meat cleaver and a cutting board with grooves and discovered an expensive knife and cutting board does not make one a butcher. Next time I’m just going to give it to the meat department and tell them to hack it up for me.

Last week I found a farm that grass feeds, no GMOs, but they do feed grains in the three weeks prior to slaughter (I’m still checking to see if that is standard practice and if not, why it’s done and whether it effects the quality of the meat (other than the tripe) – more questions for my conference list). I may be able to get half of a cow in a few weeks at $2/lb. So, I have a 20 cu.ft. freezer arriving on Saturday and I continue to look at local resources including a dairy farm where they usually put down male calves, as well as chicken, goat and other natural farmed animals. Until then, I’m happy using MPC for all of my meat. I received my second shipment from them today, thank goodness – twice what I ordered the first time and I feel better about the balance of foods. MPC sells a number of balanced grinds – chicken, tripe/organs/etc. They also sell fine ground meats (I assume for small dogs), as well as coarse grind.

So, the answer to your question is – yes, you can buy from a reputable market. It’s cheaper in the long run since you don’t have to pay high shipping fees to ensure frozen mean doesn’t thaw before it arrives. (If you live near MPC they have pickup points.) The first local meat market I called not only couldn’t tell me whether the meat they sell is GMO free but they seemed irritated that I asked. Not going there! I’m also looking for a co-op of folks who are feeding raw but that is turning out to be more difficult to find than I expected.

As for supplements, I’ve been giving Mystery garlic (pest control), and a vitamin C complex (gum health, immune support, antioxidant), from Springtime from the day I brought him home, that hasn’t changed now that he’s on raw. He’s also getting two 825mg capsules of curcumen (variety of cancers, inflammation, among many others), sprinkled on his food and about a tablespoon of coconut oil which I started him on for a skin condition that cleared up in a matter of weeks and continue to give him for a myriad of benefits. I may be adding krill oil to his list of supplements as well.

In addition to all the help you’ll get here, if you go to mypetcarnivore.com, whether you intend to buy or not, they have some links to some great articles on feeding raw – right side, about half way down the homepage. If you sign up for Dogs Naturally Magazine, they email you a link to download their Raw Food Primer.

There are folks here who are much smarter about all of this than I am (which is why I’m here), and they have been really helpful during my transition to raw. Keep asking those questions!