[EHubbman]

And lol, somebodysme! Knowing the coffee feeling today (from your first post)! I figured since these forums are such a wealth of.info, might as well ask this one!

Thanks for the great info on cod liver oil, HDM! I’ve got a few books on raw that I need to get reading and figure out where Dominic needs to be as far as supplements/add-ins.

Typing this on mobile, please excuse any weird typing!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by EHubbman.

[FreeholdHound]

Oh my- I need a flip chart just to READ this thread! I’m lost & clueless! Advice please..
I’m feeding kibble in the AM and kibble mixed w/ premade grinds (meat,organ,bone, & tripe) in the PM
I add in:
Ground sardines 2-3 meals per week
Crused egg w/shell 2-3 meals/week
Kefir 4-5 meals/week
Vitamin E cap (400 IU) when I remember to AM meal.
I have the Dr Stephen Langer 15 strain Probiotic coming in the mail tomorrow.
Salmon oil is not tolerated by Harry AT ALL.
Suggestions please would be appreciated!
We’re just starting out on the raw mix ins & trying to figure out supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsue –

I’m familiar with Missing Link. Looking at their puppy supplement (assuming that’s what you’d be using) there’s nothing in it that should pose a problem however I’m personally not impressed with their line of supplements – there are much better supplements out there. The biggest issue that I have with their supplements is that they all contain molasses – in other words sugar, it also only has on strain of probiotics which isn’t going to be of much benefit. Some supplements I’d recommend:

WellyTails Puppy Smart Start (I used this for one of my dogs until she was 6 months old) it contains colostrum, marine algae and microencapsulated fish oil which provide DHA and EPA, 6 strains of probiotics, 7 digestive enzymes, antioxidants and whole foods.

Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier which is completely whole food based and contains 5 strains of probiotics and 4 enzymes.

Dr. Harvey’s Formative Years for Puppies and Young Dogs which is an herb and whole food based supplement.

Frozen foods would be a better choice than freeze-dried foods because they’re less processed and they’re much cheaper to feed.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

It’s all pretty confusing when you start out isn’t it?

I would like to start out by saying I strongly disagree with those that say supplements aren’t necessary for a raw diet. The thing is, if a dog was eating whole wild prey daily this may be true but that’s not practical in real life. It would be next to impossible to feed an actual prey model diet so people approximate it by feeding ratios of muscle meat, organ meat and bone (80:10:10) that mimic the ratios found in a whole prey animal. While this is a good estimate of the dog’s natural diet, it’s not going to provide all the nutrients a dog needs for various reasons: 1) Your dog isn’t getting the whole animal. When a dog eats prey in the wild it eats everything – all the organs, the glands, the brain, eyeballs, fur, feathers, sinew, some intestines and intestinal content, it even picks up some dirt of the ground where it’s eating. 2) Commercially raised meat such as what is available to us in the supermarket is not as mineral dense as wild prey. 3) Domestic dogs are bombarded with toxins on a daily basis that their wild relatives aren’t – i.e.) flea treatments, heart worm treatments, vaccines, exhaust fumes, cleaning chemicals, etc. etc. – and for this reason benefit from additional antioxidants in their diet that are provides through fruits, vegetables and whole super foods.

You do not need to supplement with enzymes when feeding a raw diet. Raw food contains enzymes. These enzymes are destroyed when the food is cooked and this is why kibble and canned foods should be supplemented with enzymes. Probiotic supplements are also a waste of money unless you have a dog with serious digestive issues. Feeding green tripe and/or plain yogurt and/or kefir at least a few times a week will maintain a healthy population of gut flora in a healthy dog.

You will need to add supplemental omega 3’s. You can do this by adding a quality fish body oil, cage free eggs or feeding a fatty fish such as sardines. If you want to feed sardines the recommend servings are (based on 3.75 oz. tin): 5 lbs. 1/4 tin, 15 lbs. 1/2 tin, 25 lbs. 5/8 tin, 50 lbs. 1 tin, 100 lbs. 1 3/4 tin – per week. If giving fish oil you want to add enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight. While the majority of a dog’s omega 3’s should come from animal sources, some plant based omega 3’s can be beneficial as well. If you’re feeding predominantly poultry, flax should be given to balance the fats and if you’re feeding predominantly red meat hemp seed should be given to balance the fats. My dogs get a cage free egg 3 days per week, Carlson brand salmon oil complete (with astaxanthin) daily and I also give small amounts of sprouted flax, sprouted chia, etc. If not supplementing with vitamin d, you should give cod liver oil as well. Carlson makes the highest quality cod liver oil – my girls each get 1 capsule of Carlson Super Cod Liver Oil daily which provides 250 IU vitamin d. If giving fish oil it’s very important not to skimp on quality – fish oil is one supplement you don’t want to find a bargain on. The cheaper brands are often rancid at purchase and don’t contain enough antioxidants to prevent oxidation. Coconut oil, as Patty pointed out, is comprised of MCT’s. Coconut oil can be given in addition to (but not instead of) omega 3’s. Coconut oil has antibacterial and antifungal properties. You can give up to 1/2 tsp. per 10 lbs. of body weight daily. My girls get coconut oil daily, I find it’s a healthy way to increase the fat level of their meals.

As Sandy pointed out, vitamin e is also necessary to add – this is especially important when supplementing with omega 3’s as vitamin e prevents the delicate fats from oxidizing in the body. For dogs <25 add 50 – 100 IU per day, 25 – 50 lbs. 100 – 200 IU per day, 50 – 75 lbs. 200 – 300 IU per day, 75 – 100 lbs. 300 – 400 IU per day, >100 lbs. 400 IU per day. I use NOW Foods Gamma E Complex – it has all 8 tocopherols and tocotrienols.

Other supplements my dogs get:

-A homemade super food mix. I generally use 1 part kelp, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part spirulina, 1 part wheat grass and 1 part bee pollen although I’ll sometimes sub in a different ingredient for variety. I buy most of my ingredients from Swanson or Starwest Botanicals in 1 lb. bags. This provides vital trace nutrients to the diet. I’d recommend about 1 tsp per 25 – 30 lbs. (roughly) for a supplement such as this.

-I give my dogs colostrum 3 days per week. Colostrum is high in immunoglobulins which helps strengthen the immune system.

-They get a glandular 3 days per week (opposite the colostrum). I use Natural Sources Raw Multiple.

If you read through the raw menu section I have my dog’s full menus (with supplements) posted.

I prefer to balance my dog’s diets using whole foods versus adding synthetic supplements. The nutrients from whole foods are more efficiently assimilated by the body and contain all the necessary co-factors for optimal absorption and utilization. There’s also a much lower chance of overdosing on nutrients when using whole foods.

If you have any more questions don’t be afraid to ask. 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pugmomsandy]

coconut oil:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

Pet products: krill, probiotics, digestive enzymes, spirugreen

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx

http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/digestive-enzymes-for-pet.aspx

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_10/features/15752-1.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/spirugreen.aspx

It’s hard to get enough vit E from the diet so I supplement with a soy-free E capsule.

I also give a glandular supplement since my dogs don’t get to eat various organs.

http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go-4.html

Human products are cheaper! I buy Mercola and SwansonVitamins products and both the humans and dogs get all these supplements! Not everyday though, just a couple days a week maybe since I buy the human products and have small dogs.

Also garlic and apple cider vinegar have health benefits too.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/2_6/features/5220-1.html

http://b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=index&main_page=newsletters

[theBCnut]

I know what you mean. I couldn’t keep up either and I kept getting certain things mixed up(still do) so I started an index card file to tell me what certain supplements are good for and what dose to give. I still have to go back through a couple threads and pick out th info I wanted to save. Like cod liver oil, I think you give it for the Vit D, but I’m not sure. And You have to be careful to get the right brand(I don’t remember which) or don’t give it very often, because it has too much vit A, again I think. That is one I don’t worry about because I only feed part raw. But one of these days…

BTW, cocnut oil is digested differently because it is a medium chain triglyceride, so it isn’t taxing to the pancreas if you find you need to add more fats to your dogs diet for some reason. It has both antibacterial and antifungal activity and it is good for the coat.

[EHubbman]

Complete newbie here! Reading the forums, I see so many things on prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, digestive enzymes, fish oil, krill oil, emu(?) oil, cod liver oil, fish body oil, coconut oils, etc, the list goes on and on! (What the heck is spirulina?)

What are these things, and what do they do? What are the pros/cons of giving them? Where do they come from (supplements v. naturally occurring, such as in a specific part of a raw diet)? When is it appropriate to give them, and how much per day per weight of dog?

Sorry for all the questions! Like I said, complete newbie, and looking in to starting a raw diet with my little guy. Some people say “yes, supplement!” While others say “Yes, but only THESE supplements,” while still others say “no, don’t supplement! If you feed raw right, you don’t have to!”

There’s so much info out there and this fourm has been such a wonderful help on other issues, I thought I’d throw this one out there.

Thank you for the help!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Hersy –

Oh my goodness, this is a lot to take in. First of all, I know that a lot of people may not want to know if their dog has cancer (kind of the “what I don’t know can’t hurt me” mentality) but if your vet suspects that your dog has cancer you should have the test done. I’m not sure what kind of budget you’re on but $60 sounds pretty cheap to me. Last time I had my dog in for “tests” (blood work, urinalysis) it ran me over $300. Before you start debating whether or not the dog undergoes treatment for cancer it would just be best to figure out whether or not the dog even has cancer. The earlier cancer is detected the better the prognosis. In the event that she does have cancer (which I sincerely hope is not the case) there will likely be both conventional and alternative treatments that you can consider – you may not be able to cure the condition but you could certainly extend her remaining time and keep her comfortable. Determining an appropriate treatment should be a bridge that you cross when you come to it. There definitely are diets and supplements that can boost the immune system. The less processed the diet it and the lower in carbohydrates, the better it will stave off cancer. Kibble should be avoided if at all possible – when meats are cooked at high temperature (such is the case with rendered meat meals and extruded kibbles) heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons can be formed – laboratory experiments have shown HCAs and PAHs to be mutagenic. Tumors feed on glucose (a simple sugar found in most carbohydrates) so carbohydrate levels should be limited. Supplements such as medicinal mushrooms, turmeric and bromelain have been shown to have anti-cancer effects. Colostrum, probiotics and astralaus are great immune boosters. Let us know how everything goes – you and Charlotte will be in my thoughts.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sharfie –

I base the dosage on the assumption that a person is 100 lbs. So a 25 lb. dog should get 1/4 the recommended human dose, a 50 lb. dog should get 1/2 the recommend human dose, a 75 lb. dog should get 3/4 the recommended human dose and dogs 100 lbs. + should get the full human dose. With most supplements (such as probiotics) there’s no real danger of overdose so it’s not critical that you get the dosage exactly right. A good rule of thumb for fish oil is to give enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight.

[SandyandMila]

Yes the primal chicken mix is the only one I’ve tried so far and just got the Bravo burger blends but haven’t tried it yet. I feed commercial raw in the am and either RMBs or that mix in the pm and the kibble and canned on the weekend for dinner. I haven’t used the Preference yet, maybe return it for baby veggie puree or the whole food supplement? And again the whole food supplement can be given whether commercial and homemade raw? Should I be worried about the brewers yeast in the Nature’s Logic? Mila’s skin and coat has been damaged due to allergies, not sure if the brewers yeast will make it worse? That’s the reason why I’ve switched her to raw and adding krill, sardine, coconut oils and supplements to get food. Thanks for all the help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, as long as you are feeding grinds that contain meat/organ/bone in the proper proportions (such as the case with Primal and Bravo) and these grinds make up less than half of her diet (i.e. kibble for breakfast and grind for dinner) you would be fine just adding a whole food supplement (or even no supplement, but I believe whole food supplements are very beneficial). Are you able to get the Primal mixes? I used these when I first started feeding raw. I believe they’re 80% meat/organ/bone and 20% fruits, veggies and herbs. To use up the rest of your Preference I say just pick up some ground beef or turkey at the grocery store and use that following the instructions on the package.

[SandyandMila]

I’m feeding primal mixes and I got turkey burger blends from Bravo that I haven’t tried yet. I would just be adding the multi/green superfood supplement to those right? I was thinking of adding the Preference to the Bravo burgers since there’s not really much veggies in it but that would throw it off, right? I should just add puréed veggies and the supplements?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

I would look into other probiotic supplements. Fortiflora isn’t very good – it’s made by Purina and the first ingredient is “animal digest.” Fortiflora also only has 1 probiotic strain. 🙁 Research has shown that 10+ strains are required for optimal GI health in dogs and the more strains present in your dogs gut, the better able he will be to respond to a variety of stressors. The probiotic formulas I recommend are Swanson’s Soil-Based Organisms (14 strains), Dr. Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15 Strain Probiotic with FOS, Lee Swanson Signature Ultimate Probiotic Formula (13 strains + FOS), Garden of Life Primal Defense (12 strains) and Mercola (14 strains). Due to the fact that he’s on antibiotics it will be critical for him to receive a variety of strains of supplemental probiotics – antibiotics kill all the bacteria (the good and the bad!). Due to the issues he’s having and the fact that he’s on antibiotics I would also give double the recommended dose of probiotics. The Zignature would be worth a shot

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

I would try to discourage him from drinking lake water – although not highly likely it is possible for dogs to contract giardia or leptospirosis from doing this. Has he been tested for Giardia (giardia can cause yellowish diarrhea) and is he on a quality multi-strain probiotic and digestive enzyme supplement? If not, I would have him tested for giardia (you have to specifically ask for this test, it won’t show up on a regular fecal and make sure your vet sends the sample to a lab – much more accurate than in-house testing) and get him on digestive supplements. You may also want to give an herbal digestive supplement (such as The Honest Kitchen’s Perfect Form) a try – some people have had a lot of success with herbal digestive supplements.

Orange tinged stool can be a sign of small intestine bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) – meaning the intestinal flora is off balance. This is common secondary condition with dogs who have endocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI). I would definitely discuss this with your veterinarian.

The Zignature Trout & Salmon formula is appropriate for large breed puppies and would be worth a shot if you want to try Zignaure – I believe the formulas are all fairly similar except for different proteins sources.

Raw would be a great option – especially for a sensitive dog. If this is something you’re willing and able to do that’s wonderful. It will be necessary to do a lot of research prior to embarking on a raw feeding regimen, however. I would recommend checking out dogaware(dot)com and picking up a copy of Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” You can also check out the recommended raw menus thread in the raw food forum – I have many of my crew’s menus posted.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Proteolytic just means that the enzymes are protein digesting enzymes (proteolysis is the process of breaking proteins down into polypeptides or amino acids). When proteolytic enzymes are fed with meals they aid in protein digestion and when they are fed between meals (i.e. Wobenzym, Medizym, etc.) they have a systemic effect – mainly combating inflammation. Systemic enzyme supplements also have an enteric coating to ensure that they aren’t digested prior to reaching the small intestine (which is why the packaging warns against chewing or crushing the tablets).

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sharfie –

It does have some beneficial ingredients (probiotics, enzymes, EFA’s and glucosamine) but it also has a lot of synthetic vitamins and minerals. Adding additional vitamins and minerals to a balanced commercial food really isn’t necessary and probably won’t provide any benefit to the dog. You couldn’t certainly discuss the supplement with your vet though if you wish to continue with it. Personally if it were me I’d just add plain yogurt or kefir, tinned sardines and digestive enzymes a few days a week or add a digestive supplement with enzymes and probiotics and a quality human-grade fish oil. There are also a lot of whole food based supplements available such as Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier, Nupro, Wholistic Canine Complete, Wysong’s Wild Things, Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Daily Boost, Dogzymes Cornucopia, Dr. Harvey’s Whole Food Based Multi-Vitamin, Udo’s Choice Pet Essentials, Carnivora’s Earth Greens etc. etc. Or you could even mix your own whole food supplement which is a lot cheaper. When I make my whole food supplement I purchase bulk ingredients from Swanson’s or Starwest Botanicals and combine them in the desired proportions. My general recipe is part kelp, 1 part spirulina, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part wheatgrass and 1 part bee pollen – occasionally I’ll sub in something else (chlorella, barley grass, sprouted chia, etc. for one of the other ingredients for variety). I also give things like glandulars, colostrum, etc. It’s nearly impossible to “overdose” on whole foods, the nutrients provided by whole foods are better utilized by the body and whole “superfoods” fill the nutritional gaps by adding phytonutrients, cartenoids, etc. that aren’t found in kibble or and that aren’t provided by synthetic multivitamins.

[sharfie]

HDM-
Here is a link to the formulation of ProBalance: http://www.propetsupplements.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ProBalance-Canine-07-125.pdf Is this the information you needed?

[crazy4cats]

Hi-
I checked out the probiotic that HDM recommended at Swanson’s. Wow, what a great price! However, I notice that it does not contain enterococcus faecium. On the dogaware site, it states that this is an important strain for dogs. But looks like the human supplements do not include it. Does anyone think that this is an issue? Are they still as helpful for dogs without it?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sharfie –

It’s fine to supplement a dog’s diet with whole foods but I would avoid supplements that contain synthetic vitamins and minerals when feeding a balanced commercial food unless advised to do so by a veterinarian – this is especially critical for puppies because they are more sensitive to vitamin and mineral deficiencies and excesses than adult dogs. I found the website for ProBalance but I can’t locate an ingredients list. Is it a whole food based supplement or does it contain synthetic vitamins and minerals?

[Shawna]

Hi Lagotto,

We noticed (at the breeders) that she had excessive drinking and urination, as compared to her 5 siblings, when she was about 6 weeks old. She came to live with me when she was 9 weeks old. At about 4 weeks old she started failing to thrive — because she had a collapsing trachea and couldn’t get enough milk from her mommy. So the breeder put her on raw goat milk and egg whites, syringe fed every 2 to 4 hours, til she could eat on her own. She was weaned onto raw food — mainly hamburger, eggs, raw milk etc.

When she came to me I was making a home made raw diet for my current dogs and she went on that same diet. At her vet visit I told her holistic vet she urinated/drank a lot but her vet poo poo’d my concern and said puppies drink and therefore urinate more. She has bright eyes, she’s very smart, good coat quality etc. She’s a healthy puppy… In looking back I’m actually thankful that happened. Audrey continued on the homemade raw diet til her one year checkup where her bloodwork showed high bun and creatinine. I started tweaking her diet and would take her in every three months for additional bloodwork to see what the tweaking was doing. Turns out, the diet I had been feeding her all along was the best for her with one exception. To the diet I added a “prebiotic” and probiotics to help lower her BUN. Works like a charm..

Audrey continued on the homemade diet for several years but then I got too busy to keep up with homemade exclusively so I started incorporating commercial raw diets — Bravo as an example. Became busier yet and moved exclusively to commercial raw — Bravo, Darwins, Answers (recently started) and premixes like The Honest Kitchen Preference and Steve’s Premix with raw meats.. Audrey turned 7 years old the end of June and is still going strong. I have NOT lowered her protein. I have not lowered her phosphorus or made any other changes than adding prebiotic/probiotic and supplements. I use Garden of Life’s Primal Defense probiotic and Fiber35’s Sprinkle Fiber as the prebiotic. A really good prebiotic, made specifically for dogs, can be found on Dr. Mercola’s website under the “Pets” link and then under “Products”.

I would NOT regularly feed her kibble if I was paid to do so. In my opinion, kibble will cause a much earlier death in a kidney disease dog.. Kibble is a POOR QUALITY food for kd dogs/cats—even the best kibbles on the market… At the very least, feed a canned diet. If you can, feed raw or lightly cooked. I also don’t feed Audrey any grains. IF you are going to feed grains it needs to be either sushi rice (aka glutinous rice) or cream of wheat (or farina). These two grains are low phosphorus. All other grains have higher phosphorus and don’t add anything to the diet that can’t be found in a more species appropriate food.

You also want to feed higher fat foods — ditch the lean ground beef.. Feed the highest fat foods you can get (unless she is showing signs of pancreatitis). Fat adds calories without phosphorus—adding organic coconut oil is a good idea too. Protein is NOT damaging to the kidneys and only needs to be reduced to prevent symptoms of uremia in the later stages of the disease — such as vomiting or depression. Audrey has NEVER to date ate low protein.

Let her have ALL the water she wants. Audrey used to sleep in the water bowl when it was empty — she was that obsessed with water and, I’m guessing, desperately trying to tell me she needed some. She started this, sleeping in water dish, at the breeders. I kept potty pads ALL over the house for her. I was lucky in that she used them. During the night I keep her in a 4 foot by 4 foot enclosure we made (for our foster puppies). It was made out of wood and plastic chicken wire. I had her water bowl, her kennel, a blanket outside the kennel and a potty pad with LOTS of newspapers under it — she would fill a potty pad to the point of leaking during the night. As she got older she was able to hold it. Since about three months of age she has slept with me in my bed at nights.

Darwins now has a kidney diet.. I haven’t seen it yet but I do think it is worth checking out. Urban Wolf has a premix designed for kd dogs that can be added to raw or home cooked meats. And I think Grandma Lucy’s has a lower phosphorus premix that is also suitable for dogs needing their phos lowered..

Also consider adding a whole food B and C vitamin to the diet. These two vitamins are “water soluble” and because of the excessive urination can become depleted if not supplemented. I use Standard Process Cataplex B and C. I also give Audrey a whole food multi as a precaution. I use Standard Process Catalyn. Standard Process also makes a whole food supplement specifically for dogs with kidney disease. It’s called Canine Renal Support — I HIGHLY recommend using it. I also give liver support also by Standard Process — Canine Hepatic Support. The liver can become overstressed in a kd dog.

I HIGHLY recommend only using reverse osmosis or distilled along with a mineral water like Evian. Mineral waters (only those lower in sodium) have shown some positive benefits to kidney patients.

Also try to eliminate as many chemical toxins from your house as possible. I was already living in a relatively toxin free environment but I had to eliminate my Swiffer mop, candles ets. These have chemicals in them that the kidneys have to filter — putting an extra strain on them OR adding to the blood poisoning when the kidneys can’t filter as well. DO NOT use flea/tick or heartworm meds on her. And DO NOT vaccinate her. Audrey has only had one set of shots (given by the breeder before I got her) and has NEVER had a rabies shot. She was diagnosed before getting the shot and I was able to get a lifelong exemption for her in my state.

As mentioned, Audrey turned 7 last month and is not on any medications (no phosphorus binders, no sub-q fluids etc) just the supplements.

I don’t use it but I know others that have had positive results with the herbal tinctures from Five Leaf Pharmacy. http://caninekidneyhealth.com/ I would NOT follow their diet though… 🙂 http://caninekidneyhealth.com/

I would also highly recommend reading the material on Mary Straus’ dog aware website. This is the site where I got most of my knowledge / as well as courage to continue feeding Audrey a high protein raw diet. She has some EXCELLENT info on the site — when to feed low protein, when to lower phosphorus and how much (phosphorus is an essential mineral – lowering it too much too early can have unintended consequences), which foods are lower in phosphorus etc. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

Your puppy can still have a fantastic quality of life.. Learn as much as you can, stay positive and enjoy her fully!!!!!

If you ever want to chat offsite, I can be reached at shawnadfaemail @ yahoo. com (take out the spaces–they are included here to prevent robot spammers from sending me junk mail).. 🙂

[Flossie]

Thanks, everybody! I don’t see a holistic vet, but I give my dog fish oil, coq10 supplements, as well as something called Vetri-Science Cardio Strength (it has l-carnitine, taurine, and various other supplements; it gets really good reviews on a few different sites). My vet says he’s nowhere near the end stages, but I’d love to minimize the coughing as much as possible. He was diagnosed in March, and since then the coughing has been kind of up and down. Luckily, his behavior/activity level/appetite haven’t changed in the least, and I want to keep it that way as long as possible. (He’s a beagle, by the way, but we’re not sure how old he is; we found him on the street seven years ago.)

I’m still deciding on a food; I’ve emailed a ton of companies and am trying to sort through it all. None of the varieties I’ve asked about seem to have high sodium, at least. It’s confusing because some have given me “as fed” content, others dry matter content, still others milligrams, and I’ve just got to go through all my emails and figure out which brands meet all or most of the criteria I’ve mentioned. Thanks again!

[lovemypets4life]

holistic health extension has a powder called “joint mobility” and it’ll help your dogs bones become stronger and help your dog live a healthier life

[lovemypets4life]

holistic health extension makes a powder called “joint mobility” and you just sprinkle it on your dogs food and it helps strengthen bones and joints while giving your dog relief of the pain

[mommyvar]

Hello HDM. I have an 11 week old St. Bernard. I have been researching food since I brought him home at 8 weeks. He is still on the food that the breeder had him on, Royal Canin. I want to change foods, and I was told Orijen LBP was one of the best out there, but it is not on your list. What was the problem with this food? If I should not feed Orijen LBP, what would the best choice be? Would Nature’s Variety Instinct be okay? I was hoping for a food made in Canada. My puppy is also taking two supplements NuVet Plus, and Arthri-Soothe Gold. Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks.

[molliesmom]

Yes to culture and sensitivity tests. She’s resistant to many! I just learned about the kibble not being that helpful to outer tartar. Thank you for your recommendations! I will research all of them. I am willing to pay a bit more for a quality dog food. It’s either the vet bill or the good food and supplements! Saving now for dental cleaning. I’m going to try grain-free and not senior. Thanks again!! I’ll let the forum know how we make out.

[DogFoodie]

Hey Flossie,

Something I just recalled…. I have a Cavalier that means the world to me and Cavaliers are predisposed to cardiac disease, so I was talking to my TCVM vet about different cardiac support supplements and in particular, I asked about Standard Process Canine Cardiac Support. He said its a great product, but he would only recommend it for a dog with a cardiac problem and that it wasn’t best for use in preventing cardiac disease. Do you see a TCVM or holistic vet, by chance?

[Hound Dog Mom]

If he has heart problems adding fresh heart as a topper an a regular basis could be very beneficial. Heart (also gizzards) are actually considered to be a muscle meat (nutritionally speaking), not organ meat so you could top the kibble daily with no issues – true organ meats (i.e. liver, kidneys, lungs, etc., while healthy, should be fed sparingly because they’re so nutrient-dense). Heart is rich in CoQ10 and taurine which are both known to be beneficial to heart health. The concept of glandular therapy also involves supplementing with the gland (or organ) that is experiencing problems – i.e. a dog with heart failure should eat heart, a dog with pancreatitis should eat pancreas, a dog with renal failure should eat kidney, etc. Glandular supplements that are much more concentrated can be purchased but feeding the fresh organ/gland is beneficial as well.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Flossie]

Thanks so much! I was just about to email Fromm’s to ask about sodium; it really does sound like a good option. And adding some meat as a topper is a good idea–my dog would definitely be all for it! The day I started mixing canned food into his dry food was the best day of his life, so organ meat on a regular basis would enrapture him. (He still eats like a pig and is very energetic; my vet says he’s certainly not in the end stages or anything like that. But his heart is enlarged and there’s fluid in his lungs that causes coughing, and two diuretics and two heart meds haven’t been able to eradicate it. I’m hoping lowering his sodium and adding some supplements will help bring it to a minimum for now.)

[JenRose]

Didn’t realize that about the fat. Thank you! The dang Newman’s I have been feeding may be high fat too. But since getting her off the coconut milk and adding in the motility drugs and supplements, she has been doing better…pooping at least once a day and less bloated looking.

I am leaning towards trying one of the pre made raw diets or at least supplementing her current canned food with it. Isn’t raw in general more easily digested than processed foods? Any idea which raw diet would roll up to make the smoothest meatball? She can’t tolerate any chunkiness. In pics the Bravo looks chunky but the Instinct and S&C seems smooth, like finely ground meat patties.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Wallyworld –

Personally, I would avoid fish based kibbles or kibbles high in DHA. It’s very likely to be rancid by the time your dog eats it and rancid omega 3’s are worse than no omega 3’s at all. It’s much better to feed a kibble low in omega 3’s (preferably with no added omega 3’s – although this would be difficult to find) and supplement with a high quality fish oil, tinned sardines and/or cage free eggs. If you subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal there’s a wonderful article on this topic titled “Fat’s Chance” by Steve Brown from December 2012 – it can be found in the archives online. I don’t use krill oil because it’s very expensive and I think a high quality fish oil is just as good. The most important thing when it comes to picking out a fish oil is quality – use human supplements only, never buy fish oil in pump dispensers, make sure the company tests for contaminants and make sure the fish oil contains vitamin e (helps to prevent oxidation). When it comes to fish oil you’re going to need to spend some money to get a quality product – good fish oil is not cheap. Make sure you store it in the fridge, use it within 2 – 3 months and if it smells “fishy” it’s rancid. I use Carlson Brand Salmon Oil Complete with astaxanthin – Carlson Labs is a very reputable company that makes some of the best quality fish oils for humans and they add high levels of vitamin e to preserve freshness. I also feed organic cage free eggs a few times a week (which are high in omega 3’s) and occasionally feed tinned sardines packed in water. Additionally, I sometimes add plant-based omega 3’s like sprouted flaxseed, sprouted chia seed and hemp seed.

[NicoBoxer]

Hello – I am new here, although I’ve lurked on the DFA site at those threads. This could be long, so bear with me. We rescued a 3-year old boxer last year who had “allergies.” We have two vets, a conventional one, and a holistic one, to whom we travel three hours each way when he needs to see her. We started taking Nico to her when all we were getting from conventional vets was Pred, then antibiotics or antifungals for secondary infections. You know the drill. Since transitioning Nico to a raw diet with supplements (enzymes, probiotics, a Chinese herb formula, and other herbs) Nico has done much better. His coat has improved, he itches much less (almost not at all in the winter). He’s still been on 5 mg of pred every other day, however, and vets agree that this is OK.
That said, we’ve done a few blood work ups on him and each time, all seemed normal except his Lipase. It was through the roof; it has “come down” to something like 4,000 when the high end is something like 1,600. I could be slightly off on that last number. We ultimately decided to do a separate draw and send that blood to a lab at Texas A&M. My husband just heard back form our conventional vet and she said she “got an earful” from the folks in Texas. I am beside myself. They are calling it something like latent pancreatitus or something like that. Has anyone ever heard of this? He has no symptoms that we can see. Every so often he has a soft or mucousy stool but otherwise he is fine and that is only occasional. I’m wondering if anyone has heard anything about this and if so, what is recommended to feed him? He loves his OC Raw turkey and rabbit. We HATE the idea of giving him kibble. And we worry that all the work we’ve done to ease his itchiness will be for naught. Thanks for listening if you’re still with me. Any thoughts would be most appreciated!
Sharon

[mah4angel]

Wanted to post some news about my progress!

I got the salmon oil and Dr. Harvey’s Multivitamin and Mineral supplement and have been adding them to his food already along with some coconut oil.
Tomorrow I should be getting the vitamin e, cod liver oil, and glandular supplements from Swanson, so I’ll be removing the Earthborn from his diet and using the supplements with the chicken grind.
Then I’ll be picking up the Xkaliber from greentripe.com on Tuesday, and will probably be adding that in sometime next week.
I was able to grab some RMB’s and organ meat, too ^_^ I got a whole ton and am doing my two week freeze now. SOOOO excited 😀
I got ox tail, pork necks, chicken feet (omg I never realized how unbelievably creepy those things were until I was walking about the grocery store with a thing of them!), chicken livers, chicken hearts and gizzards, and pork feet. I may have also gotten something else but now I don’t remember. The organ meat is all chicken because beef organs were kind of expensive (don’t recall seeing pork organ meat), and I figured it would all balance out with the RMB’s.
Unfortunately Only Natural Pet is back-ordered on the Super Daily Greens and won’t get it in till the 31st so I won’t be able to add that into my rotation for a little while. Sigh.
So we’re close to a 100% raw diet!! AHHH hehe 😀 I’m sure I will have many many many more questions and concerns along the way but I’m so glad I’ve gotten him all the way to this point ^_^

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I also got a kitchen scale! I am decidedly more excited about this than my wonderful fiancee but I’m so glad I’ll be able to measure his food out properly ^_^

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by mah4angel.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Nosh –

I read the recent article about the study released on the UC Davis press release page and I have a lot of questions about this study and issues with the findings. For anyone who wants to read the original press release: news(dot)ucdavis(dot)edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10666. Also, I’m going to apologize ahead of time because this is going to get kind of “ranty” (not toward you, but toward the study and subsequent articles).

1) I would like to see these “200 recipes” they analyzed. Where were they coming from? I know some were formulated by veterinarians, but what about the rest? I’ve come across many recipes on websites, in forums, even published in books by unqualified individuals that are horribly unbalanced. In fact, I recently came across a commercially prepared cooked food being sold as “complete and balanced” that only contained meat and no calcium!

2) They reported that even some of the recipes formulated by veterinarians had a least one deficiency. What does this tell us about the nutrition-related education that vets receive? That it’s inadequate! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to feed a person and it shouldn’t take one to feed a dog either. It’s not that complicated.

3) This study is not taking into consideration the main philosophy of homemade diets: Balance over time. Is each meal that you eat 100% balanced with every vitamin, mineral and amino acid your body requires? Does each meal you eat have the ideal fat to protein to carbohydrate ratio? What about the ideal omega 3 to omega 6 ratio? I doubt it! People eat varied diets, for this reason we receive all the nutrients we need by eating a variety of healthy foods. People that eat a varied healthy don’t don’t require synthetic vitamin/mineral supplements and, in fact, it is advised not to take multivitamins unless absolutely necessary as synthetic vitamins are linked to a myriad of health issues. Why should a dog’s diet be any different? Most people that feed homemade diets don’t worry about making each meal 100% balanced – they feed a variety of fresh and species-appropriate foods and over the course of a few days or a week everything balances out (as with people) and the dog receives all the nutrients it needs. Yes, there does need to be some basic understanding of a dog’s nutrient requirements, however variety is the most important thing.

I can say this – I have fed my dogs a homemade diet for about two years now. I don’t use any synthetic vitamins and minerals. My dogs are healthier than ever. I had bloodwork done on two of my dogs after they had been on homemade for about 6 months to test for nutrient deficiencies and they had none. I have ran a full nutrient analysis on some of my recipes using the USDA’s nutrient database and found that my recipes exceed the AAFCO’s nutrient requirements for growth and reproduction (the more stringent of the two nutrient requirements). For those that don’t have the knowledge to create a balanced homemade diet from scratch, there are several pre-mixes on the market designed to make a homemade diet complete and balanced. My favorite is “See Spot Liver Longer Dinner Mix.”

This study and press release is nothing short of a scare tactic designed to steer pet owners toward commercial foods. They could very well have chosen numerous obviously unbalanced recipes from questionable sources for the study. The problem here is the vets, not homemade food. They need to become educated in how to instruct their clients to make balanced and healthy homemade meals for their animals. To have that level of education and not able to make a balanced meal for a dog is inexcusable and just plain sad. They recommend that only recipes formulated by veterinary nutritionists are used. Really? Do mothers need to spend 8 years in college and then do a nutritional residency before being able to feed their child? What a joke.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[mah4angel]

Well, I think I’m going to try for this (updated a little bit after some research on my own):

Morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protein sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Only Natural Pet Super Daily Greens super food supplements (every other day)
Swanson’s glandular supplement (still not sure of the dosage nor how often to administer since it’s a human supplement)
1/8 capsule of 200 IU vitamin e (25 IU)
Rotating between salmon oil (1/2 tsp), coconut oil (1/2 tsp), and flax seed (1/2 tbsp)
1/8 1000 mg capsule of cod liver oil (125 mg)

Evening:
RMB’s (rotating)

I’ve already purchased everything except the green tripe, which I’ve already sent them an email about, and the RMB’s, which I’m still searching for locally.

I’m so excited!

[mah4angel]

Okay! And the cod liver oil would not supplement the omega-3’s, correct (I believe you said before that in order to get enough omega-3’s through cod liver oil, you’d be getting excessive amounts of vitamin a and d)? I actually am going to try to go the non-supplement route especially considering I have a ton of flax seed that I bought at Costco that is a possible source of manganese if I supplement with it correctly, and because I just think it’s an all-around better option for my Louie.

SO I’m wondering if this will work for the morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protein sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Daily Greens super food supplements
Swanson’s glandular supplement (not sure of the dosage since it’s a human supplement)
1/8 capsule of 200 IU vitamin e (25 IU)
Salmon oil (should I give this daily or maybe alternate between this and ground flax seed/others nuts and seeds?)
Daily cod liver oil (not sure how much to give my 10 pound dog – I know you give your babies one 1.000 mg capsule)

I was also looking at urinary tract boosters because Louie apparently has crystals in his urine and a much higher risk for UTI’s and kidney/bladder stones.

I feel so close to getting this down AH 🙂

[mah4angel]

Hello all!

So I decided to create a separate topic here on the supplements forum specifically to ask for suggestions for a cheap human multi with no calcium that would be safe/acceptable for dogs. I’m working on getting my Louie on a 100% raw diet but HDM pointed out that the recipe I have will be deficient in certain vitamins (d and e) and minerals (manganese) so I’d like to supplement with a multi. Here’s what I plan on feeding:

Morning:
1/2 cup whole grind (rotating between protain sources)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Alternating between Dr. Harvey’s and Daily Greens super food supplements
Swanson’s glandular supplement
Omega-3 source (salmon oil, whole sardines, etc.)
No-calcium multi
Possibly organic virgin coconut oil if it doesn’t throw everything off

Evenings:
RMB’s

I don’t know that this is adequate but, it’s what I’ve got so far 😀

[somebodysme]

Isn’t that sarcoptic mange? It didn’t spread to you? I kind to thought that if she had that, then I’d have it too? I suppose it could be. The patches that pop up are red and inflamed looking, go away in a couple days…she is then left with a gray skin patch but there isn’t irritation on the skin anymore. Is that the sort of rash it would cause? Also, her back doesn’t itch. That’s one reason I thought maybe it was demodex because supposedly demodex doesn’t itch but sarcoptic mange does itch.

I’m really beginning to think that it was something that she had eaten that caused that to come up and get inflamed. It is all fading away now and she is on nothing but her food (NV LID Turkey) and a probiotic. All treats are just her kibble and no other supposedly LID treats anymore. No other supplements. There was a treat I’d bought that sounded like she shouldn’t have any problems with it..sweet potatoes and turkey and very little else but I do believe that was what she was allergic to. I think she’s allergic to sweet potatoes and white potatoes. I won’t know until I can add one new thing at a time though.

Thanks for that suggestion though, if it doesn’t go away I’ll ask the vet about that for sure!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by somebodysme.

[kateagray]

Hi!

I’ve been posting in different threads with questions on different dog foods/supplements and then just realized…HELLO…there are forums on this website as well, thanks to Inkedmarie who suggested I check out a sub forum with different dog foods that were grain free with no potatoes. Thanks! I’ve decided to send my question out forum wise instead of post wise so I can keep better track of the advice that I am receiving.

Here is my dilemma:

In 2006 I took Nikki, my 13 year old Miniature Schnzauzer in for allergy testing – she is allergic to pretty much everything environmental is what I found out. She was on a duck and potato formula then. She had a couple of bouts of pancreatitis due to some pain medication she was prescribed for something else and then because someone in my family was naughty an fed her some sausage. My vet put her on a prescription diet of Purina HA. I believe that my vet is being super cautious as schnauzers are prone to bladder stones, pancreatitis/hyperlipidemia, and hypothyroidism. Nikki seems to do ok on this dog food, which I get but every time I ask her for an alternative she says absolutely not this is the only dog food she can tolerate. I don’t like that answer. There has to be alternatives.

I called them back recently and got a different vet in her practice – my regular vet is out for a time due to sick family member, and he couldn’t figure out why Nikki was on this dog food. He thinks it’s because of the food allergies. I ask him what food allergies and he can’t answer me. I thought she was on this food due to a sensitive stomach. So, I’m confused. I was also told to give her rice cakes as treats and tofu to give her any medications so that is all she has been getting. She can’t eat anything other than that is what she tells me and she pushes low protein which I’ve been reading may not be the answer. She’s been on this prescription diet for a few years and everything I’m reading now says that it might not be good to have a dog on that diet for so long. She’s been on and off antibiotics, anti bacterial pills, temaril p for years to help with her allergies and yeast infections. Nothing really seems to help and I’m worried I’ve just completely ruined her system with years of this. Purina HA has a low protein (18%) and fat content (8%) with hydrolyzed protein of soy. I honestly feel I can do better by her with a different dog food.

About a year ago Nikki was diagnosed with Melanoma. A tumor on the pad of her paw that was removed (but not a clean removal). She has been taking the Melanoma Vaccine every 6 months. The cancer does not look to have come back so far. (knock on wood) She also has gallstones that don’t seem to bother her but do show up in x-rays. She has a heart murmur and Also, on her last urinalysis I was told there was protein in her urine. We did a protein/creatinene ratio and it came back ok, so I’m told I don’t need to worry about that right now.

I’ve been researching dog food and supplements now for about 2 weeks and am now more confused than before. I purchased a probiotic from Nusentia (waiting to get it in the mail) that supposedly should help with her yeast issues and possibly allergies.

Do I stay with her current food and just give supplements or do I completely switch foods over (slowly)?

She’s 13 years old with a lot of health issues – I don’t want to rock the boat, but I also want to do my due diligence in finding her something to make her healthy and happy for the remainder of her life.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide. I may have left some things out and if so, I’d be happy to clarify.

Kate

[Codybean]

Hi, As a fellow dog lover, I wanted to let you know about Hubrihound. 🙂 Hubrihound is an all natural supplement for canine arthritis & hip dysplasia. It really helped my dog. 🙂 Hubrihound uses NZ Green Lipped Mussel as our main active ingredient. This ingredient helps to relieve inflammation and repair damaged joints. Green lipped mussel also helps to thicken the synovial fluid that helps keep joints (within people and animals) lubricated. In addition to green lipped mussel, Hubrihound has a unique synergistic blend of glucosamine, Vitamin E, and hand harvested sun dried Kelp found in the waters of NZ, that also contributes to the efficiency of Hubrihound. You can learn more about it at http://www.hubrihound.com. Feel free to email me at Jamie.alfaro1@gmail.com, with any questions at all. Thanks so much! 🙂

[Codybean]

Hi Husky Mom 9710. As a fellow dog lover, I wanted to let you know about Hubrihound. Hubrihound really helped my dog. :). Hubrihound is an all natural supplement for canine arthritis & hip dysplasia. Hubrihound uses NZ Green Lipped Mussel as our main active ingredient. This ingredient helps to relieve inflammation and repair damaged joints. Green lipped mussel also helps to thicken the synovial fluid that helps keep joints (within people and animals) lubricated. In addition to green lipped mussel, Hubrihound has a unique synergistic blend of glucosamine, Vitamin E, and hand harvested sun dried Kelp found in the waters of NZ, that also contributes to the efficiency of Hubrihound. You can learn more about it at http://www.hubrihound.com. Feel free to email me at Jamie.alfaro1@gmail.com, with any questions at all. Thanks so much! 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey EHubbman –

Glucosamine and chondroitin are fine for puppies. A dog’s natural diet (raw) would be very rich in glucosamine and chondroitin as cartilage and bones contain high levels. Dogs foods, even those with added glucosamine and chondroitin, don’t contain enough to say so – so I wouldn’t worry about it’s presence in a kibbled dog food.

I have not been able to find any evidence suggesting that supplementing a large breed puppy’s diet with glucosamine can be harmful, however I don’t believe it to be necessary either. My two get lots of RMB’s so I know their diet is rich in glucosamine and chondroitin – I probably won’t add any supplements until they’re seniors. I do, however, typically recommend that large and giant breed dogs eating processed foods receive supplemental glucosamine and chondroitin (or whole foods providing these nutrients) starting between 1 and 2 years of age (when they’re young it can be a low dose, just for maintenance).

This is an excerpt from an article about large and giant breed puppy nutrition written by integrative veterinarian Dr. Susan Wynn:

“There are no studies so far that indicate whether it is effective or harmful to supplement with glucosamine to large breed puppies because of their risk of DOD. In general, I wait until I recognize a risk factor in a dog.”

[Newfs]

Hi,
once again would like to ask for help in choosing food for my 3.5 month Newfoundland from food available in Poland: Fromm Gold http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold or Husse http://www.husse.co.uk/dog-food-products/dry-food-for-dogs/?product=110 or Enova http://www.enovapetfood.com/photoVideoGallery.aspx?cid=4680&mid=18452 or
Enova ADULT Breeders BAG GRAIN-FREE SIMPLE!
Complete food without cereal with fresh chicken meat. It can be administered to dogs from 2 months to 7 years old.
food without grains
addition of fresh chicken meat (min. 20%)
contains glucosamine and chondroitin supplement
Ingredients: dried chicken meat (min. 23.3%), fresh chicken meat (min. 20%), potato flour, dried green peas, chicken fat, dried beet pulp, flaxseed, dried egg protein hydrolyzate, dried yeast, fish oil, dried carrots, dried tomato puree, dried seaweed, sodium chloride, glucosamine, chondroitin.
Analytical constituents: crude protein – 31.5%, oils and fats – 19.5%, crude fiber – 3,5%, crude ash – 6,5%, calcium – 1.25%, phosphorus – 0.95% , moisture – 10.0%.
Extras: antioxidants. Dietary supplements in 1 kg of feed: Vitamin A – 15,000 IU Vitamin D3 – 1200 IU Vitamin E – 150 mg Copper (as copper sulphate pentahydrate) – 10 mg.
Analysis
protein: 31.5%
fat: 19.5%
Crude fiber 3.5%
ash 6.5%
humidity 10.0%
omega – 6 2.7%
Chondroitin 250 mg / kg
calcium 1.25%
phosphorus 1.0% – 0.95%
copper 10 mg / kg
selenium 0.2 mg / kg
iodine 2 mg / kg
Vitamin A 15,000 IU / kg
Vitamin D3 1200 IU / kg
Vitamin E 150 IU / kg
Niacin 135 mg / kg
I know that these food contain corn, but such are available in Poland as normal, not a cosmic price :/
Greetings

[marmarx89]

I’ve been wanting to start my Louie on a raw diet for awhile, he has been on kibble and his stools have always been soft and I just didn’t feel like he was getting the best nutrition possible. I’ve been reading so much on feeding raw and all the benefits and I’m so excited to start it with him. I originally was going to feed commercial frozen raw, I bought a bag of the Primal Venison nuggets, but with his size (58.5lbs) he would go through 3 bags a week of that stuff ($90/week). So I started researching the Raw Prey Model and that seemed more feasible. Ive just started shopping around for everything, but I had a couple of questions I was hoping to run by you guys. I think I may have spent a little too much time creeping on here already, I feel like I already know everyone and their dogs haha. Anyway, I was wondering first how long you freeze your meats when you buy them in the store. I read that for the pork it has to be for at least 2 weeks but what about other meats? Also, in terms of adding the vitamins and supplements is that a necessity or just depends on what you like to feed? Im thinking of including some vegetables to his diet, do they have to be cooked first and pureed? or are raw vegetables allowed. Finally, the addition of vitamins/minerals that some people include in their diets are those something that I should definitely be including because of this type of diet or its just more a personal preference type of thing. Thanks in advance for any answers.

[pugmomsandy]

HDM uses Swanson’s glandulars and so far I’ve used Pet GO. It is made up of body glands that aren’t normally available at the store. If you feed a whole prey then you would get these glands. I just give intermittenly, like all the other supplements.

http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go.html

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/natural-sources-raw-multiple-60-caps

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumom –

Unfortunately that supplement wouldn’t be safe for a dog. It contains green tea extract which contains caffeine, caffeine is toxic to dogs – this was actually the main reason I asked for the ingredients list, most “green” supplements for humans contain green tea extract. It also contains grape extract – grapes are toxic to dogs (grape seed extract is okay though).

If you’re feeding an unbalanced diet and want some extra nutritional assurance I’d go with a basic one a day type human multi that has no calcium or that is low in calcium (<5% dv) so you don’t throw of the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the meal. For a small dog I’d give just 1/4 of a human tablet. No, the green supplement I have posted wouldn’t be a substitute for a multi, it will however provide trace nutrients and immune boosting effects and would be great to give in addition to a multi. You could use the glandular supplement as well – you can give this as daily if you want or just a few times a week (my dogs get a capsule of a glandular three days per week).

[mah4angel]

Yeah, when I was lying in bed after doing my research on the vitamins I was thinking of alternating between the two supplements for variety. I just wasn’t sure if that would a good balance over time so yay 🙂
I actually only feed once a day because it’s easier on me (because, again, I’m lazy haha) so I would probably alternate every day or every other day.
What glandular supplement is recommended? I’ve seen a few mentioned, but I’m not 100% sure where lol. How would I include a glandular supplement (every day, every other day) and would that be something else to alternate between multiple formulas? Also, what does a glandular supplement consist of? And, what does it do, exactly (I’m thinking it supports the body’s glands but that’s a tiny bit vague lol)?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi mah4angel –

I use capsules and poke a hole using a thumbtack and squirt on the food. It’s generally recommended to give enough fish oil to provide 400 – 600 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 20 lbs. of body weight (most fish oil capsules have around 300 mg. per capsule).

If you plan on feeding fruits and vegetables and you’re feeding RMB’s, a fiber supplement shouldn’t be necessary. I’d also say probiotics and enzymes aren’t necessary if you’re feeding raw green tripe regularly.

For vegetables, just pick some out at the grocery store (no onions!) cook and puree them. I give my dogs about 1/2 C. per day (they’re both around 70 lbs.). Good green “super food” supplements include: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, wheat grass, etc. etc. I make a homemade super food supplement mixing equal parts kelp, alfalfa, wheat grass, spirulina and bee pollen (I switch up the ingredients occasionally). I give my girls 2 tsp. each – I’d say around 1/2 tsp. per 15 – 20 lbs. would be a good dose.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shihtzumom –

Unfortunately I can’t seem to find an ingredient list for the “Greens Multi.” Some human multi’s (especiall those with added whole foods) can contain herbs or fruits/vegetables that are unsafe for dogs so it’s important to know that all the ingredients are safe prior to feeding.

I use both the glandular and fruit complex – they add an extra immune system “boost” but would not take the place of a multivitamin.

You can use sardines or krill oil. If you’re using krill oil give enough to provide about 400 – 600 mg. combines EPA and DHA per day per 20 lbs. body weight. If you’re feeding sardines give 1/4 can per 5 lbs., 1/2 can per 15 lbs. or 5/8 can per 25 lbs. per week.

I feel that vegetables provide important antioxidant benefits, however if your dog won’t eat them they aren’t essential. I would however be sure to add a green superfood supplements (kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, wheat grass, etc.). Depending on whether or not you’re feeding bone, you may also need to add some supplemental fiber (such as psyllium) if you aren’t feeding any vegetables.

[mah4angel]

I also had questions about supplementation with vegetables and with fish oil!
Costco has Wild Alaskan Salmon oil pills (not in the pump like they have at Pet Smart), would these be okay? Coated or uncoated? Do I poke a hole in them and squeeze out the oil? How many mg’s of omega-3’s and 6’s does he need (what should I look for on the label as far as levels are concerned with a supplement like this)?
I also found some Herbacil Artichoke Dietary Supplement at Target, it’s in a little bottle/vile thingy in liquid form, I guess, and it contains artichoke, grapefruit, fennel, prickly pear, apple cider vinegar, and L-Carnitine. What fruit/vegetable supplements would you guys recommend? I just sort of didn’t feel right about the Herbacil (idk, I guess I was looking for something with more superfoods?), and it was a little pricey. I also had no idea how much I should be adding to his food. Maybe a powdered supplement would be better?

Right now, here’s what I’m doing for Louie:
1/2 cup raw whole chicken grind
1/2 tablespoon of golden flax (for fiber and a little extra omega-3’s and 6’s)
1/2 tablespoon of low fat plain yogurt (enzymes/probiotics)
1/2 cup of Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural (I’ve kept this in so far because I have yet to figure out my supplementation and this formula has omega-3 sources (fish) very high up on the ingredient list as well as fruits and vegetables… Also, it wasn’t cheap to buy and I still have quite a bit left)

I’m hoping to get here:
1/2 cup raw whole grind (alternating between chicken, beef, pork, etc.)
1/2 cup XKALIBER green tripe grind (greentripe.com)
Some sort of fruit/vegetable supplement (for antioxidants and vitamins)
Some sort of omega-3 supplement (fish oil, whole fish, etc.)
RMB’s: I was giving him pork necks (which were GREAT, he LOVED them!!) but then my mother-in-law cooked them -___________- So now I’ll have to go out and somehow find pork necks for him and freeze them for 3 weeks before I can start giving them to him again, or find some chicken necks or something comparable for his size (he’s a little silky; 10 pounds)
I believe everyone said that I wouldn’t need to add any fiber, enzymes or probiotics because of the green tripe, but I’d like to be sure. Also, any fruit/vegetable supplement should contain fiber, anyway.

Your advice, as always, is much appreciated!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by mah4angel.

[Hound Dog Mom]

What? I’m not familiar with either of these Facebook groups (I actually don’t have a Facebook) but I can’t understand why someone wouldn’t be in support of natural supplements for an elderly dog with arthritis? Many glucosamine and chondroitin supplements are actually animal-derived (usually shellfish, shark or bovine or chicken cartilage). There are also many “animal” based supplements such as green lipped mussel, sea cucumber and velvet antler that have been proven effective. I still don’t, however, see why any one would be opposed to a plant-derived supplement either. It’s true that raw diets are high in naturally occurring GAG’s but some dogs with orthopedic issues need more than that and anti-inflammatories can help a lot in many cases.