[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Aussie Mom –

Homemade raw is actually much cheaper than pre-made raw. I spend just under $200 a month to feed my girls a homemade raw diet – for comparative purposes it would cost me nearly $800 per month to feed Darwin’s (based on the average cost of all of their formulas). There are many ways to keep costs low when feeding a homemade raw diet: 1) Utilize raw meaty bones (chicken backs, turkey necks, etc.) – they are much cheaper per pound than boneless meat and if fed in appropriate quantities will eliminate the need for a calcium supplement; 2) Use heart, gizzards and green tripe for the muscle meat component of the diet – these items are cheap and nutritious, dogs have no need for expensive cuts of meat such as boneless skinless chicken breast or beef sirloin; 3) Buy in bulk. I purchase my meat from a wholesaler that supplies restaurants and grocery stores – nearly every item I buy is under $1 per pound; 4) Purchase supplements from a human nutritional store, in bulk when possible – this is much cheaper than buying supplements marketed towards pets. I purchase all supplements for both myself and my dog from Swanson’s – best prices I’ve seen. I make my own green supplement by purchasing the ingredients I want in 1 lb. bags and combining them.

Hare Today is great – I do purchase a few things from there (mostly Green Tripe). Their products are not human grade as they contain things like green tripe, ground bone, fur/feathers (for whole prey grinds) that are not suitable for human consumption (but very nutritious for animals) and the products aren’t processed in a human food facility. Using Hare Today grinds may be slightly cheaper than pre-made raw but if you really want to cut costs you need to do it from scratch – many butchers will sell RMBs and offal cheaply as they’re not desirable for humans or hook up with a supplier like I did.

If you’re interested in homemade raw I would highly recommend purchasing “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown. It’s wonderful book for beginners and includes AAFCO compliant recipes that are easy to make and utilize easy to find and cheap ingredients. Dogaware(dot)com is also a great online resource.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey losul –

I used tried the Amazing Grass’ Green SuperFood chocolate drink mix – I love the ingredients but it was one of the nastiest things I’ve ever tasted. I went back to Wysong’s whole food supplement capsules – much more palatable lol. I wouldn’t recommend using the Amazing Grass supplement for a dog because it contains green tea and it doesn’t state that it’s been decaffeinated. This is the problem with many green supplements designed for humans.

[Anonymous]

Have you tried a Calming Cap?

There are many calming supplements on the market, some have published studies behind them. You may have to try and see which one might help.

I also suggest to bridge the gap between trips around town and long trips. You wouldn’t go out and run a marathon without careful and deliberate training. Start with trips just a bit longer than your around town trips and gradually build on it. If you get “the hassles” you have asked for more than your dog can handle. Back up and reduce the distance. Then increase in smaller steps.

You could also talk with your vet about Dramamine. He may have motion sickness issues that only surface on long trips. Plus, the original Dramamine has a mild sedating effect.

Who knows, may be he has made some really bad experience on a long trip and you are dealing with an old trauma.

[ILoveDogs]

Where do you get the supplements? Are they available online? I’d also read that giving cranberry, Vit C and probiotics can help.

[pugmomsandy]

Ok. My dogs see a holistic vet. They have some struvite but are not symptomatic of any kind of infection. I give them urinary health supplements and they continue with their regular diet.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[bullterriermom]

I will look into those Ty, someone recommended fresh hearts from a butcher, I tried to get them but it really grossed me out and I couldn’t do it. Supplements is a much easier and far less eww factor way of me getting her some extra cardiovascular support.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsure –

Pre-made raw food is very expensive and Primal is probably the most expensive brand of all. Pre-made raw really is financially impractical for large breed dogs and multi-dog households. If you want to feed raw I’d highly recommend researching homemade raw and learning to make your own. Homemade raw is higher quality than pre-made raw and it’s much cheaper. I’m currently spending under $200 per month to feed my two girls raw – they’re both around 70 lbs. and they each eat about 2 lbs. of meat/bone/organ + extras (eggs, kefir, veggies, supplements, etc.) per day. If you go to the raw food forum there’s a thread with recommended menus, you can check out what I feed my girls there. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a great book for beginners getting started on homemade raw.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes that’s the site I order from. There really isn’t a difference between human supplements and animal supplements. It’s important to make sure whatever human supplement you plan on using for your dog contains ingredients safe for dogs (generally not a concern with digestive supplements and joint supplements) and you’ll need to adjust the dose according to your dog’s weight. The main difference is that pet supplements usually come in powders or meat flavored chewables where human supplements typically come in tablets, capsules or softgels. With tablets I just crush them or split them and mix them in the food, for capsules I open them up and sprinkle the powder in their food and with softgels I use a thumbtack to poke a hole and squeeze it over the food. I wouldn’t use any of the pet probiotics the two I see that they offer aren’t as good as the human versions and they’re more expensive – Jarrow Pet Dophilus only has 5 strains of probiotics and costs $0.20 per serving and the Flying Basset Pro Animal Probiotic only has one strain and costs $0.27 per serving. The Swanson Ultra Soil-Based Organisms has 15 strains of probitoics + 5 enzymes + whole foods and only costs $0.11 per serving – since it’s made for humans I’d also assume it’s better quality.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pacer1978]

Thanks Hound Dog Mom…is this by chance the correct website that you order from?

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-soil-based-organisms-90-caps

I did notice that they also offer a pet probiotic. Do you recommend the human probiotic over that because you had mentioned that they are higher quality? If that is the case, why are there “pet” supplements to begin with? Thanks again!!

[WhippetsGo2]

I am posing this situation for a whippet friend in our club. Their 3 year old whippet was not been eating regularly starting beginning of this summer. Tried different foods and such to no avail. Just recently he refused to go on a walk and at the same time the owner noticed that his breathing pattern was off. He was taken to the vet and they discovered through a chest x-ray that he had fluid in his lungs. They drained the fluid, sent it out for testing and it came back as being chylous. They were told, in layman’s terms that means he has trouble digesting fats. He was put on a prescription low fat diet and eating again but 12 days later his breathing symptoms came back and he was rushed to the vet where they extracted even more fluid from his lungs. The vet wants to give the low fat diet a chance to work but if the fluid should return a third time, he wants to do an ultrasound to see if there are any heart issues associated.

In my rudimentary searches, the appearance of fat is expected in chylous fluid. Anyone have any experience? Onset of heart disease? Want to help my peeps ask the right questions.

Brian
4 x Whippets for racing, coursing, agility & show
Feeds raw, supplements with 6 Fish and Stella’s Freeze Dried for the road.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Check out Swanson’s – I’d recommend Dr. Langer’s 15 Strain Probiotic or Swanson Ultra Soil-Based Microorganisms. Both are high quality and reasonably priced. Swanson’s also has a great price on their organic extra virgin coconut oil. I order all my supplements an my dogs’ supplements from here.

[pacer1978]

Thank you for your responses. I wasn’t sure if the human supplements would still be beneficial for dogs. So…this is what I plan on doing. Can you let me know if this is recommended? I switch dog food every now and then (all 4-5 star brands). Currently, I have them on Solid Gold MMellenium. I give Mia (4-yr old Weim) and Lucy (guessing age to be around 10, not sure of breed, she is a mix) 2 Nordic Naturals fish capsules for dogs per day. I give Mattie (12-yr old Weim) and Lucy 1 Dasuquin per day. I will most likely start Mia on this soon as well. I plan on starting them on Coconut oil (heard there was a good brand through Costco or Cocotherapy was also good). Also considering probiotic..or prebiotic? Which is better? Any brands you would recommend for the pro/prebiotic?
They issues they experience:
For the most part, they are healthy with the occasional allergy bouts (chewing/licking paws). Lucy gets watery eyes..which has gotten a little better after getting her teeth cleaned (they pulled 4 teeth). Weims tend to get bad hips as they age, hence the Dasuquin. Mia sheds a lot for a Weim and Lucy does as well, Mattie not too bad. Mia also tends to have what appears to be flaky skin and usually a rash or irritation on her chest (most likely from the mat in her cage since I crate her during the day. She gets in trouble and tears papers up around the house when I don’t). I keep the mat clean, so I’m not really sure why this keeps happening. I’ve tried different types of mats thinking maybe she is allergic to the material, but that doesn’t help. I’m mainly just looking to improve their overall health and wasn’t sure if doing all this would be wasting money or actually helping. Thanks again!!

[DogFoodie]

I once talked to my TCVM vet about cardiac supplements (hoping to prevent any cardiac issues in my beloved Cavalier) and he recommends Standard Process Canine Cardiac Support, but only if a dog has a heart condition that necessitates it ~ rather than for prevention. You have to buy it from an approved Standard Process veterinary supplier. Check for a supplier near you here: https://www.standardprocess.com/HCP-Search

Here’s a link for the product: https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/Veterinary-Formulas/Canine-Cardiac-Support

[Mom2Cavs]

I have a Cavalier, my Black & Tan, Hazel who has a grade 2 murmur. I have used supplements in the past but atm I’m not using any. Hazel has had her murmur since 2 months old (probably born with it) and she’s 6 years old now. I hasn’t changed yet. COQ10, Hawthorn, Taurine, L-Carnitine are good for the heart. I’ve given supplements for humans and made for dogs. Some of the ones made for dogs are: Cardio Strength, Bio Cardio, the supplement from Nature’s Farmacy (I think it’s called Heart Strength?). There’s also a site called Mainly Dogs that has one.

[emchide]

Hi everyone, and thanks for such an informative site with a lot of informative posts by those willing to share their hard-learned experiences. I’ve been poring over a lot of the discussions and digging in to the facts presented, and I’m trying hard not to duplicate questions already asked.

One manufacturer I came across seems not to have a presence on this website yet – it’s listed in the topic, GreenTripe.com. What particularly intrigues me are their various formulations using trachea, gullet, and pancreas, among others. What do you experienced raw food people think of this variation? At a glance, it looks like shipping costs might be somewhat prohibitive unless ordering in serious bulk.

I’m thinking my best bet to start is simply checking with the local grocers for various RMBs and organs on the cheap and using those as well as eggs, yogurt, and so on as a topper for grain-free kibble (currently rotating among Halo Puppy Salmon, Halo Surf and Turf, Nature’s Variety Instinct Duck, and Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit with canned toppings like Wellness Core and Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe). Ideally I would eventually transition to all home-prepared ingredients but I definitely need to read up more on vegetables and supplements for a while first.

Oh, and my dog is a four-month old boxer/pit mix – he’s growing like a weed and I’m slightly concerned we’ve been using a few too many treats for training in addition to his three meals a day as he’s gone from 13 lbs on June 12 when we adopted him to 32 currently, but he seems healthy as a horse and has great energy. The only issue seems to be some scratching and itching which has somewhat receded as his flea treatment has kicked in (I still find fleas on him but they seem unwell and are easy to catch and crush), but he came home on SD of course from the SPCA so I am hoping that dietary improvements might eliminate any potential skin issues if they exist.

I look forward to gleaning a lot more valuable knowledge from these discussions, and thanks again for expending the energy to inform more people – I really appreciate the love-driven data!

• This topic was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by emchide.
• This topic was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by emchide.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks very much, hdm. I will check out the supplements you mentioned.

[little pea]

PattyV

The leaky gut. I read about this a few days prior and was shocked. Especially because the girl’s highest allergy was to yeast. And I knew stolen loaves of bread from the counter were having some effect.
In addition in Feb/March we had one of the worst bouts of overall scratching, paw chewing and ear infection. The weather was wet and she had been recently professionally groomed. And dog loves to just stand or lay down in the rain. Primary suspect yeast infection . So began a steroid, pills, and medicated ear wash… the ears taking over 2 weeks to clear.
She looked and acted perfect in April/May.
Late May blowing coat and itching, itching and coat continues to fall well into June. Itching starts up, I don’t recall heavy paw chewing. I flew in a professional newf groomer prior to a late June show and we had long talks on coat care, drying, etc etc… and etc And a steroid shot.
I do not think we have leaky gut, but my gut says yeast is on a high watch list.
I did talk to a Holistic vet clinic and they even suggested a special Derm vet…which does scratch test as opposed to blood. I thinks it is too far to go.
The dog’s skin at this time is in perfect condition and has been since April. Yet we continue with the face, ear, and frequent scratch to those areas and a frontal paw chew. After switching to Ziwi peak venison in June red eyes and the clear discharge have pretty much been eliminated. No red eyes.

The newbie in me is digging for answers, but I feel some simple solutions are more practical.
A raw diet…with supplements. Just need to figure it all out.
Thank-you.
You seem to be, a pretty sharp cookie.

[FreeholdHound]

Thank you!! Glad I’ve been lax in supplements the last 2 wks LOL. Will be copy/pasting this 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay gotcha. No, what we feed wouldn’t be considered “prey model.” Those that follow prey model believe dogs should eat meat, bones and organs only – nothing else. Many refer to ground raw meat and veggie diets as “BARF” style. I would consider my feeding style to be a BARF/Prey Model Hybrid. My dogs get a prey model style dinner each night (RMBs and whole offal) but their breakfast is ground with veggies and whole food supplements.

As far as garlic it’s very beneficial if given in small quantities but I’m not sure how much it would increase the palatability. My girls get a couple cloves three days per week. Garlic is a natural broad-spectrum antibiotic. Garlic is also a prebiotic and contains antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral and anti-carcinogenic properties. The sulfur content also acts as a natural insect repellent. You’d want to give the following amounts 3 – 4 days per week: under 10 lbs – 1/4 clove; 10 to 20 lbs. – half a clove; 20 to 50 lbs. – 1 clove; 50 to 75 lbs. – 2 cloves; 75 to 100 lbs. – 2 and a half cloves; 100 lbs. and over – 3 cloves.

[EHubbman]

I should clarify a bit, haha! The things I was reading were more along the lines of 50% meat/bone/organ and 50% raw fruit and veg (or other ratios around those amounts), which is why I was wanting to stay away from those, because that kinda seems like an obnoxious amount of fruit/veg. I was finding these ratios on pages for the BARF diet, where prey model raw pages were more towards meat/bone/organs with supplements.

More what I mean by feeling more towards prey model is what I’m seeing more frequently here and among those I know that feed raw. The main majority of the meal is meat/bone/organ, but they do supplement with good stuff. (Am I calling it the wrong thing by saying prey model?)

Patty, that mix sounds like a good treat! I’m sure Dom would love it, he loves frozen treats.

HDM, Thanks! I’ll definitely be checking in on those books. A good friend just recommended “Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals” by Lew Olson, so I’ve been trying to read that.

Random thought, since I’ve seen it a few times on forums: Garlic for dogs? I would think that since it’s a member of the allium family, wouldn’t it be bad for dogs? Yet I see people saying “add it to the food to make your dog eat it!”

[Hound Dog Mom]

EHubbman –

If you decide to go the strict prey model route be very careful. Most strict prey model diets are deficient in key nutrients unless synthetic supplements are added – there’s a reason why there are no meat/bone/organ grinds that conform to AAFCO standards (to my knowledge), they’re all labeled for intermittent or supplemental feeding only. The thing is, it’s not very difficult to conform to the AAFCO nutrient profiles either. Also if you’re visiting prey model forums take everything you read with a grain of salt – there is a lot of misinformation thrown around on these forums. As someone just starting out I would strongly recommend picking up a copy of “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown and “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Karen Becker. I also second everything Patty posted concerning the importance of antioxidants.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

One other thing I didn’t think to mention in my previous post is that if you are looking to cut costs but want to continue to give your dogs high quality joint supplements look into human joint supplements – this also goes for all other supplements (probiotics, enzymes, etc.) as well. Human supplements tend to be higher in quality and generally cost significantly less per dose. Just adjust the dose – 1/4 human dose per 25 lbs. (dogs >100 lbs. can have the recommended human dose). Swanson’s is where I shop for all my dogs’ supplements.

[bullterriermom]

My dog has a level 2 heart murmur. Are their any supplements I should add to my dogs food, to help her? Is it ok to take her for 30-45 min walks, play ball in the yard ect? I want to do what’s best by her, and make sure I’m not causing her harm by being active with her. I have heard if her breed is inactive they can get destructive and obviously I don’t want that. I find info online and one page will say one thing and then a different page will say something completely different. I just don’t want to do the wrong things.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI pacer1978 –

Dasequin and cosequin are very similar and they’re both made by the same company – Nutramax Labs. Both contain glucosamine and chondroitin (Cosequin may also have an option with MSM) but in addition to the glucosamine and chondroitin, Dasequin also contains ASU – another ingredient believed to protect against cartilage damage. I’ve used some Vet’s Best products (I’m currently using their Dental Gel) and I think they make good products – it would be worth trying their joint supplements to see if your dog receives the same relief.

When feeding a balanced dog food supplements aren’t necessary (in fact synthetic vitamin/mineral supplements can potentially be harmful) but dogs can benefit from some supplements such as joint supplements, probiotics, enzymes and whole food based supplements. Probiotics are great – you can use a supplement or give your dog some plain yogurt or kefir a few days per week.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi beagleowner –

Is what you listed above all your dog gets? Are any supplements added aside from te glucosamine and fish oil? I’m asking because what you listed is extremely unbalanced and could result in some major issues if fed long term.

[pacer1978]

Does anyone know the difference between the two? I give my two older dogs (one being a Weimaraner) Dasuquin. I’ve been giving it to her for years and she seems to not have hip/joint issues. However, I noticed that Cosequin was a bit cheaper. I also saw another hip/joint product and was thinking of switching her to Vet’s Best. Does anyone know about their products and if they are good? If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it…so I may just leave her on the Dasuquin…but, was looking for a little more affordable alternatives.

Also, if you feed your dog good quality dog food, I heard that there wouldn’t be a need to give them supplements. How does anyone feel about that? With that being said, it is recommended to give a dog probiotics as well?

[EHubbman]

And lol, somebodysme! Knowing the coffee feeling today (from your first post)! I figured since these forums are such a wealth of.info, might as well ask this one!

Thanks for the great info on cod liver oil, HDM! I’ve got a few books on raw that I need to get reading and figure out where Dominic needs to be as far as supplements/add-ins.

Typing this on mobile, please excuse any weird typing!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by EHubbman.

[FreeholdHound]

Oh my- I need a flip chart just to READ this thread! I’m lost & clueless! Advice please..
I’m feeding kibble in the AM and kibble mixed w/ premade grinds (meat,organ,bone, & tripe) in the PM
I add in:
Ground sardines 2-3 meals per week
Crused egg w/shell 2-3 meals/week
Kefir 4-5 meals/week
Vitamin E cap (400 IU) when I remember to AM meal.
I have the Dr Stephen Langer 15 strain Probiotic coming in the mail tomorrow.
Salmon oil is not tolerated by Harry AT ALL.
Suggestions please would be appreciated!
We’re just starting out on the raw mix ins & trying to figure out supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsue –

I’m familiar with Missing Link. Looking at their puppy supplement (assuming that’s what you’d be using) there’s nothing in it that should pose a problem however I’m personally not impressed with their line of supplements – there are much better supplements out there. The biggest issue that I have with their supplements is that they all contain molasses – in other words sugar, it also only has on strain of probiotics which isn’t going to be of much benefit. Some supplements I’d recommend:

WellyTails Puppy Smart Start (I used this for one of my dogs until she was 6 months old) it contains colostrum, marine algae and microencapsulated fish oil which provide DHA and EPA, 6 strains of probiotics, 7 digestive enzymes, antioxidants and whole foods.

Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier which is completely whole food based and contains 5 strains of probiotics and 4 enzymes.

Dr. Harvey’s Formative Years for Puppies and Young Dogs which is an herb and whole food based supplement.

Frozen foods would be a better choice than freeze-dried foods because they’re less processed and they’re much cheaper to feed.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

It’s all pretty confusing when you start out isn’t it?

I would like to start out by saying I strongly disagree with those that say supplements aren’t necessary for a raw diet. The thing is, if a dog was eating whole wild prey daily this may be true but that’s not practical in real life. It would be next to impossible to feed an actual prey model diet so people approximate it by feeding ratios of muscle meat, organ meat and bone (80:10:10) that mimic the ratios found in a whole prey animal. While this is a good estimate of the dog’s natural diet, it’s not going to provide all the nutrients a dog needs for various reasons: 1) Your dog isn’t getting the whole animal. When a dog eats prey in the wild it eats everything – all the organs, the glands, the brain, eyeballs, fur, feathers, sinew, some intestines and intestinal content, it even picks up some dirt of the ground where it’s eating. 2) Commercially raised meat such as what is available to us in the supermarket is not as mineral dense as wild prey. 3) Domestic dogs are bombarded with toxins on a daily basis that their wild relatives aren’t – i.e.) flea treatments, heart worm treatments, vaccines, exhaust fumes, cleaning chemicals, etc. etc. – and for this reason benefit from additional antioxidants in their diet that are provides through fruits, vegetables and whole super foods.

You do not need to supplement with enzymes when feeding a raw diet. Raw food contains enzymes. These enzymes are destroyed when the food is cooked and this is why kibble and canned foods should be supplemented with enzymes. Probiotic supplements are also a waste of money unless you have a dog with serious digestive issues. Feeding green tripe and/or plain yogurt and/or kefir at least a few times a week will maintain a healthy population of gut flora in a healthy dog.

You will need to add supplemental omega 3’s. You can do this by adding a quality fish body oil, cage free eggs or feeding a fatty fish such as sardines. If you want to feed sardines the recommend servings are (based on 3.75 oz. tin): 5 lbs. 1/4 tin, 15 lbs. 1/2 tin, 25 lbs. 5/8 tin, 50 lbs. 1 tin, 100 lbs. 1 3/4 tin – per week. If giving fish oil you want to add enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight. While the majority of a dog’s omega 3’s should come from animal sources, some plant based omega 3’s can be beneficial as well. If you’re feeding predominantly poultry, flax should be given to balance the fats and if you’re feeding predominantly red meat hemp seed should be given to balance the fats. My dogs get a cage free egg 3 days per week, Carlson brand salmon oil complete (with astaxanthin) daily and I also give small amounts of sprouted flax, sprouted chia, etc. If not supplementing with vitamin d, you should give cod liver oil as well. Carlson makes the highest quality cod liver oil – my girls each get 1 capsule of Carlson Super Cod Liver Oil daily which provides 250 IU vitamin d. If giving fish oil it’s very important not to skimp on quality – fish oil is one supplement you don’t want to find a bargain on. The cheaper brands are often rancid at purchase and don’t contain enough antioxidants to prevent oxidation. Coconut oil, as Patty pointed out, is comprised of MCT’s. Coconut oil can be given in addition to (but not instead of) omega 3’s. Coconut oil has antibacterial and antifungal properties. You can give up to 1/2 tsp. per 10 lbs. of body weight daily. My girls get coconut oil daily, I find it’s a healthy way to increase the fat level of their meals.

As Sandy pointed out, vitamin e is also necessary to add – this is especially important when supplementing with omega 3’s as vitamin e prevents the delicate fats from oxidizing in the body. For dogs <25 add 50 – 100 IU per day, 25 – 50 lbs. 100 – 200 IU per day, 50 – 75 lbs. 200 – 300 IU per day, 75 – 100 lbs. 300 – 400 IU per day, >100 lbs. 400 IU per day. I use NOW Foods Gamma E Complex – it has all 8 tocopherols and tocotrienols.

Other supplements my dogs get:

-A homemade super food mix. I generally use 1 part kelp, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part spirulina, 1 part wheat grass and 1 part bee pollen although I’ll sometimes sub in a different ingredient for variety. I buy most of my ingredients from Swanson or Starwest Botanicals in 1 lb. bags. This provides vital trace nutrients to the diet. I’d recommend about 1 tsp per 25 – 30 lbs. (roughly) for a supplement such as this.

-I give my dogs colostrum 3 days per week. Colostrum is high in immunoglobulins which helps strengthen the immune system.

-They get a glandular 3 days per week (opposite the colostrum). I use Natural Sources Raw Multiple.

If you read through the raw menu section I have my dog’s full menus (with supplements) posted.

I prefer to balance my dog’s diets using whole foods versus adding synthetic supplements. The nutrients from whole foods are more efficiently assimilated by the body and contain all the necessary co-factors for optimal absorption and utilization. There’s also a much lower chance of overdosing on nutrients when using whole foods.

If you have any more questions don’t be afraid to ask. 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pugmomsandy]

coconut oil:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

Pet products: krill, probiotics, digestive enzymes, spirugreen

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx

http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/digestive-enzymes-for-pet.aspx

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_10/features/15752-1.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/spirugreen.aspx

It’s hard to get enough vit E from the diet so I supplement with a soy-free E capsule.

I also give a glandular supplement since my dogs don’t get to eat various organs.

http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go-4.html

Human products are cheaper! I buy Mercola and SwansonVitamins products and both the humans and dogs get all these supplements! Not everyday though, just a couple days a week maybe since I buy the human products and have small dogs.

Also garlic and apple cider vinegar have health benefits too.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/2_6/features/5220-1.html

http://b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=index&main_page=newsletters

[theBCnut]

I know what you mean. I couldn’t keep up either and I kept getting certain things mixed up(still do) so I started an index card file to tell me what certain supplements are good for and what dose to give. I still have to go back through a couple threads and pick out th info I wanted to save. Like cod liver oil, I think you give it for the Vit D, but I’m not sure. And You have to be careful to get the right brand(I don’t remember which) or don’t give it very often, because it has too much vit A, again I think. That is one I don’t worry about because I only feed part raw. But one of these days…

BTW, cocnut oil is digested differently because it is a medium chain triglyceride, so it isn’t taxing to the pancreas if you find you need to add more fats to your dogs diet for some reason. It has both antibacterial and antifungal activity and it is good for the coat.

[EHubbman]

Complete newbie here! Reading the forums, I see so many things on prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, digestive enzymes, fish oil, krill oil, emu(?) oil, cod liver oil, fish body oil, coconut oils, etc, the list goes on and on! (What the heck is spirulina?)

What are these things, and what do they do? What are the pros/cons of giving them? Where do they come from (supplements v. naturally occurring, such as in a specific part of a raw diet)? When is it appropriate to give them, and how much per day per weight of dog?

Sorry for all the questions! Like I said, complete newbie, and looking in to starting a raw diet with my little guy. Some people say “yes, supplement!” While others say “Yes, but only THESE supplements,” while still others say “no, don’t supplement! If you feed raw right, you don’t have to!”

There’s so much info out there and this fourm has been such a wonderful help on other issues, I thought I’d throw this one out there.

Thank you for the help!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Hersy –

Oh my goodness, this is a lot to take in. First of all, I know that a lot of people may not want to know if their dog has cancer (kind of the “what I don’t know can’t hurt me” mentality) but if your vet suspects that your dog has cancer you should have the test done. I’m not sure what kind of budget you’re on but $60 sounds pretty cheap to me. Last time I had my dog in for “tests” (blood work, urinalysis) it ran me over $300. Before you start debating whether or not the dog undergoes treatment for cancer it would just be best to figure out whether or not the dog even has cancer. The earlier cancer is detected the better the prognosis. In the event that she does have cancer (which I sincerely hope is not the case) there will likely be both conventional and alternative treatments that you can consider – you may not be able to cure the condition but you could certainly extend her remaining time and keep her comfortable. Determining an appropriate treatment should be a bridge that you cross when you come to it. There definitely are diets and supplements that can boost the immune system. The less processed the diet it and the lower in carbohydrates, the better it will stave off cancer. Kibble should be avoided if at all possible – when meats are cooked at high temperature (such is the case with rendered meat meals and extruded kibbles) heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons can be formed – laboratory experiments have shown HCAs and PAHs to be mutagenic. Tumors feed on glucose (a simple sugar found in most carbohydrates) so carbohydrate levels should be limited. Supplements such as medicinal mushrooms, turmeric and bromelain have been shown to have anti-cancer effects. Colostrum, probiotics and astralaus are great immune boosters. Let us know how everything goes – you and Charlotte will be in my thoughts.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sharfie –

I base the dosage on the assumption that a person is 100 lbs. So a 25 lb. dog should get 1/4 the recommended human dose, a 50 lb. dog should get 1/2 the recommend human dose, a 75 lb. dog should get 3/4 the recommended human dose and dogs 100 lbs. + should get the full human dose. With most supplements (such as probiotics) there’s no real danger of overdose so it’s not critical that you get the dosage exactly right. A good rule of thumb for fish oil is to give enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight.

[SandyandMila]

Yes the primal chicken mix is the only one I’ve tried so far and just got the Bravo burger blends but haven’t tried it yet. I feed commercial raw in the am and either RMBs or that mix in the pm and the kibble and canned on the weekend for dinner. I haven’t used the Preference yet, maybe return it for baby veggie puree or the whole food supplement? And again the whole food supplement can be given whether commercial and homemade raw? Should I be worried about the brewers yeast in the Nature’s Logic? Mila’s skin and coat has been damaged due to allergies, not sure if the brewers yeast will make it worse? That’s the reason why I’ve switched her to raw and adding krill, sardine, coconut oils and supplements to get food. Thanks for all the help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, as long as you are feeding grinds that contain meat/organ/bone in the proper proportions (such as the case with Primal and Bravo) and these grinds make up less than half of her diet (i.e. kibble for breakfast and grind for dinner) you would be fine just adding a whole food supplement (or even no supplement, but I believe whole food supplements are very beneficial). Are you able to get the Primal mixes? I used these when I first started feeding raw. I believe they’re 80% meat/organ/bone and 20% fruits, veggies and herbs. To use up the rest of your Preference I say just pick up some ground beef or turkey at the grocery store and use that following the instructions on the package.

[SandyandMila]

I’m feeding primal mixes and I got turkey burger blends from Bravo that I haven’t tried yet. I would just be adding the multi/green superfood supplement to those right? I was thinking of adding the Preference to the Bravo burgers since there’s not really much veggies in it but that would throw it off, right? I should just add puréed veggies and the supplements?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

I would look into other probiotic supplements. Fortiflora isn’t very good – it’s made by Purina and the first ingredient is “animal digest.” Fortiflora also only has 1 probiotic strain. 🙁 Research has shown that 10+ strains are required for optimal GI health in dogs and the more strains present in your dogs gut, the better able he will be to respond to a variety of stressors. The probiotic formulas I recommend are Swanson’s Soil-Based Organisms (14 strains), Dr. Stephen Langer’s Ultimate 15 Strain Probiotic with FOS, Lee Swanson Signature Ultimate Probiotic Formula (13 strains + FOS), Garden of Life Primal Defense (12 strains) and Mercola (14 strains). Due to the fact that he’s on antibiotics it will be critical for him to receive a variety of strains of supplemental probiotics – antibiotics kill all the bacteria (the good and the bad!). Due to the issues he’s having and the fact that he’s on antibiotics I would also give double the recommended dose of probiotics. The Zignature would be worth a shot

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

I would try to discourage him from drinking lake water – although not highly likely it is possible for dogs to contract giardia or leptospirosis from doing this. Has he been tested for Giardia (giardia can cause yellowish diarrhea) and is he on a quality multi-strain probiotic and digestive enzyme supplement? If not, I would have him tested for giardia (you have to specifically ask for this test, it won’t show up on a regular fecal and make sure your vet sends the sample to a lab – much more accurate than in-house testing) and get him on digestive supplements. You may also want to give an herbal digestive supplement (such as The Honest Kitchen’s Perfect Form) a try – some people have had a lot of success with herbal digestive supplements.

Orange tinged stool can be a sign of small intestine bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) – meaning the intestinal flora is off balance. This is common secondary condition with dogs who have endocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI). I would definitely discuss this with your veterinarian.

The Zignature Trout & Salmon formula is appropriate for large breed puppies and would be worth a shot if you want to try Zignaure – I believe the formulas are all fairly similar except for different proteins sources.

Raw would be a great option – especially for a sensitive dog. If this is something you’re willing and able to do that’s wonderful. It will be necessary to do a lot of research prior to embarking on a raw feeding regimen, however. I would recommend checking out dogaware(dot)com and picking up a copy of Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” You can also check out the recommended raw menus thread in the raw food forum – I have many of my crew’s menus posted.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Proteolytic just means that the enzymes are protein digesting enzymes (proteolysis is the process of breaking proteins down into polypeptides or amino acids). When proteolytic enzymes are fed with meals they aid in protein digestion and when they are fed between meals (i.e. Wobenzym, Medizym, etc.) they have a systemic effect – mainly combating inflammation. Systemic enzyme supplements also have an enteric coating to ensure that they aren’t digested prior to reaching the small intestine (which is why the packaging warns against chewing or crushing the tablets).

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sharfie –

It does have some beneficial ingredients (probiotics, enzymes, EFA’s and glucosamine) but it also has a lot of synthetic vitamins and minerals. Adding additional vitamins and minerals to a balanced commercial food really isn’t necessary and probably won’t provide any benefit to the dog. You couldn’t certainly discuss the supplement with your vet though if you wish to continue with it. Personally if it were me I’d just add plain yogurt or kefir, tinned sardines and digestive enzymes a few days a week or add a digestive supplement with enzymes and probiotics and a quality human-grade fish oil. There are also a lot of whole food based supplements available such as Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier, Nupro, Wholistic Canine Complete, Wysong’s Wild Things, Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Daily Boost, Dogzymes Cornucopia, Dr. Harvey’s Whole Food Based Multi-Vitamin, Udo’s Choice Pet Essentials, Carnivora’s Earth Greens etc. etc. Or you could even mix your own whole food supplement which is a lot cheaper. When I make my whole food supplement I purchase bulk ingredients from Swanson’s or Starwest Botanicals and combine them in the desired proportions. My general recipe is part kelp, 1 part spirulina, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part wheatgrass and 1 part bee pollen – occasionally I’ll sub in something else (chlorella, barley grass, sprouted chia, etc. for one of the other ingredients for variety). I also give things like glandulars, colostrum, etc. It’s nearly impossible to “overdose” on whole foods, the nutrients provided by whole foods are better utilized by the body and whole “superfoods” fill the nutritional gaps by adding phytonutrients, cartenoids, etc. that aren’t found in kibble or and that aren’t provided by synthetic multivitamins.

[sharfie]

HDM-
Here is a link to the formulation of ProBalance: http://www.propetsupplements.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ProBalance-Canine-07-125.pdf Is this the information you needed?

[crazy4cats]

Hi-
I checked out the probiotic that HDM recommended at Swanson’s. Wow, what a great price! However, I notice that it does not contain enterococcus faecium. On the dogaware site, it states that this is an important strain for dogs. But looks like the human supplements do not include it. Does anyone think that this is an issue? Are they still as helpful for dogs without it?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sharfie –

It’s fine to supplement a dog’s diet with whole foods but I would avoid supplements that contain synthetic vitamins and minerals when feeding a balanced commercial food unless advised to do so by a veterinarian – this is especially critical for puppies because they are more sensitive to vitamin and mineral deficiencies and excesses than adult dogs. I found the website for ProBalance but I can’t locate an ingredients list. Is it a whole food based supplement or does it contain synthetic vitamins and minerals?

[Shawna]

Hi Lagotto,

We noticed (at the breeders) that she had excessive drinking and urination, as compared to her 5 siblings, when she was about 6 weeks old. She came to live with me when she was 9 weeks old. At about 4 weeks old she started failing to thrive — because she had a collapsing trachea and couldn’t get enough milk from her mommy. So the breeder put her on raw goat milk and egg whites, syringe fed every 2 to 4 hours, til she could eat on her own. She was weaned onto raw food — mainly hamburger, eggs, raw milk etc.

When she came to me I was making a home made raw diet for my current dogs and she went on that same diet. At her vet visit I told her holistic vet she urinated/drank a lot but her vet poo poo’d my concern and said puppies drink and therefore urinate more. She has bright eyes, she’s very smart, good coat quality etc. She’s a healthy puppy… In looking back I’m actually thankful that happened. Audrey continued on the homemade raw diet til her one year checkup where her bloodwork showed high bun and creatinine. I started tweaking her diet and would take her in every three months for additional bloodwork to see what the tweaking was doing. Turns out, the diet I had been feeding her all along was the best for her with one exception. To the diet I added a “prebiotic” and probiotics to help lower her BUN. Works like a charm..

Audrey continued on the homemade diet for several years but then I got too busy to keep up with homemade exclusively so I started incorporating commercial raw diets — Bravo as an example. Became busier yet and moved exclusively to commercial raw — Bravo, Darwins, Answers (recently started) and premixes like The Honest Kitchen Preference and Steve’s Premix with raw meats.. Audrey turned 7 years old the end of June and is still going strong. I have NOT lowered her protein. I have not lowered her phosphorus or made any other changes than adding prebiotic/probiotic and supplements. I use Garden of Life’s Primal Defense probiotic and Fiber35’s Sprinkle Fiber as the prebiotic. A really good prebiotic, made specifically for dogs, can be found on Dr. Mercola’s website under the “Pets” link and then under “Products”.

I would NOT regularly feed her kibble if I was paid to do so. In my opinion, kibble will cause a much earlier death in a kidney disease dog.. Kibble is a POOR QUALITY food for kd dogs/cats—even the best kibbles on the market… At the very least, feed a canned diet. If you can, feed raw or lightly cooked. I also don’t feed Audrey any grains. IF you are going to feed grains it needs to be either sushi rice (aka glutinous rice) or cream of wheat (or farina). These two grains are low phosphorus. All other grains have higher phosphorus and don’t add anything to the diet that can’t be found in a more species appropriate food.

You also want to feed higher fat foods — ditch the lean ground beef.. Feed the highest fat foods you can get (unless she is showing signs of pancreatitis). Fat adds calories without phosphorus—adding organic coconut oil is a good idea too. Protein is NOT damaging to the kidneys and only needs to be reduced to prevent symptoms of uremia in the later stages of the disease — such as vomiting or depression. Audrey has NEVER to date ate low protein.

Let her have ALL the water she wants. Audrey used to sleep in the water bowl when it was empty — she was that obsessed with water and, I’m guessing, desperately trying to tell me she needed some. She started this, sleeping in water dish, at the breeders. I kept potty pads ALL over the house for her. I was lucky in that she used them. During the night I keep her in a 4 foot by 4 foot enclosure we made (for our foster puppies). It was made out of wood and plastic chicken wire. I had her water bowl, her kennel, a blanket outside the kennel and a potty pad with LOTS of newspapers under it — she would fill a potty pad to the point of leaking during the night. As she got older she was able to hold it. Since about three months of age she has slept with me in my bed at nights.

Darwins now has a kidney diet.. I haven’t seen it yet but I do think it is worth checking out. Urban Wolf has a premix designed for kd dogs that can be added to raw or home cooked meats. And I think Grandma Lucy’s has a lower phosphorus premix that is also suitable for dogs needing their phos lowered..

Also consider adding a whole food B and C vitamin to the diet. These two vitamins are “water soluble” and because of the excessive urination can become depleted if not supplemented. I use Standard Process Cataplex B and C. I also give Audrey a whole food multi as a precaution. I use Standard Process Catalyn. Standard Process also makes a whole food supplement specifically for dogs with kidney disease. It’s called Canine Renal Support — I HIGHLY recommend using it. I also give liver support also by Standard Process — Canine Hepatic Support. The liver can become overstressed in a kd dog.

I HIGHLY recommend only using reverse osmosis or distilled along with a mineral water like Evian. Mineral waters (only those lower in sodium) have shown some positive benefits to kidney patients.

Also try to eliminate as many chemical toxins from your house as possible. I was already living in a relatively toxin free environment but I had to eliminate my Swiffer mop, candles ets. These have chemicals in them that the kidneys have to filter — putting an extra strain on them OR adding to the blood poisoning when the kidneys can’t filter as well. DO NOT use flea/tick or heartworm meds on her. And DO NOT vaccinate her. Audrey has only had one set of shots (given by the breeder before I got her) and has NEVER had a rabies shot. She was diagnosed before getting the shot and I was able to get a lifelong exemption for her in my state.

As mentioned, Audrey turned 7 last month and is not on any medications (no phosphorus binders, no sub-q fluids etc) just the supplements.

I don’t use it but I know others that have had positive results with the herbal tinctures from Five Leaf Pharmacy. http://caninekidneyhealth.com/ I would NOT follow their diet though… 🙂 http://caninekidneyhealth.com/

I would also highly recommend reading the material on Mary Straus’ dog aware website. This is the site where I got most of my knowledge / as well as courage to continue feeding Audrey a high protein raw diet. She has some EXCELLENT info on the site — when to feed low protein, when to lower phosphorus and how much (phosphorus is an essential mineral – lowering it too much too early can have unintended consequences), which foods are lower in phosphorus etc. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

Your puppy can still have a fantastic quality of life.. Learn as much as you can, stay positive and enjoy her fully!!!!!

If you ever want to chat offsite, I can be reached at shawnadfaemail @ yahoo. com (take out the spaces–they are included here to prevent robot spammers from sending me junk mail).. 🙂

[Flossie]

Thanks, everybody! I don’t see a holistic vet, but I give my dog fish oil, coq10 supplements, as well as something called Vetri-Science Cardio Strength (it has l-carnitine, taurine, and various other supplements; it gets really good reviews on a few different sites). My vet says he’s nowhere near the end stages, but I’d love to minimize the coughing as much as possible. He was diagnosed in March, and since then the coughing has been kind of up and down. Luckily, his behavior/activity level/appetite haven’t changed in the least, and I want to keep it that way as long as possible. (He’s a beagle, by the way, but we’re not sure how old he is; we found him on the street seven years ago.)

I’m still deciding on a food; I’ve emailed a ton of companies and am trying to sort through it all. None of the varieties I’ve asked about seem to have high sodium, at least. It’s confusing because some have given me “as fed” content, others dry matter content, still others milligrams, and I’ve just got to go through all my emails and figure out which brands meet all or most of the criteria I’ve mentioned. Thanks again!

[lovemypets4life]

holistic health extension has a powder called “joint mobility” and it’ll help your dogs bones become stronger and help your dog live a healthier life

[lovemypets4life]

holistic health extension makes a powder called “joint mobility” and you just sprinkle it on your dogs food and it helps strengthen bones and joints while giving your dog relief of the pain

[mommyvar]

Hello HDM. I have an 11 week old St. Bernard. I have been researching food since I brought him home at 8 weeks. He is still on the food that the breeder had him on, Royal Canin. I want to change foods, and I was told Orijen LBP was one of the best out there, but it is not on your list. What was the problem with this food? If I should not feed Orijen LBP, what would the best choice be? Would Nature’s Variety Instinct be okay? I was hoping for a food made in Canada. My puppy is also taking two supplements NuVet Plus, and Arthri-Soothe Gold. Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks.