[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Kobe –

Based on the information provided to me by the Earthborn rep when I spoke to him on the phone, the grain-inclusive Puppy Vantage is not appropriate for large or giant breed puppies. Most veterinary nutritionists recommend large or giant breed puppies consume no more than 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. I was told by the rep that the max calcium level in the Puppy Vantage is 1.61% – this equates to 4.19 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. which is too high.

I can’t guarantee that switching to a grain-free kibble will or will not cause digestive upset as all dogs are different. What I would suggest is doing a gradual transition – 25% new/75% old for 3 – 4 days, 50% new/50% old for 3 – 4 days, 75% new/25% old for 3 – 4 days until you’re up to 100% new. I would also recommend adding a tablespoon on plain canned pumpkin and a probiotic supplement to each meal during the transition period. The fiber in the pumpkin and probiotics should help to minimize digestive upset.

A wet food is not more likely to cause digestive upset than a dry food, it just depends on the individual dog and whether or not the dog handles new foods. Trying new foods will be a good way to determine whether or not your dog has a healthy gut. Dogs that don’t have healthy guts (the balance of microflora in their gut is off) do not tolerate changes in food, I truly healthy dog can switch from food to food with no transition and not experience digestive upset. Rotating foods helps to strengthen the gut.

The wet food can be from the same company as the dry but it doesn’t have to be. A general rule of thumb is that 1 large can of wet food (usually around 13 oz.) is roughly the caloric equivalent of 1 C. of kibble. So adjust your dog’s kibble intake based on how much wet food you want to feed. For example, if he’s eating 3 C. kibble per day and you wanted to start giving him 1 large can per day you would give 2 C. dry + 1 can. If you do decide to go with Earthborn’s wet foods, keep in mind they come in smaller tubs (9 oz.) versus the traditional 13 oz. cans so I’d say one of their tubs would be the equivalent of about 3/4 C. kibble.

[bullterriermom]

I will look into those Ty, someone recommended fresh hearts from a butcher, I tried to get them but it really grossed me out and I couldn’t do it. Supplements is a much easier and far less eww factor way of me getting her some extra cardiovascular support.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would give L-carnitine, a glandular and a whole food supplement. Another ingredient very beneficial for cardiac support which is not in the SP supplement which I’d recommend adding is CoQ10. I’d check out Swanson Vitamins for these things – I’m sure it would be a lot cheaper to do it this way than using SP anyways. Another option, Wysong has a supplement called “Carvasol” (which contains CoQ10, L-carnitine and some other amino acids and herbs) sold for humans to support cardiac health, it’s safe for dogs and they have dosing instructions for animals as well – to this you could add a glandular.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi bullterriermom –

I’m sure you could find a similar supplement – you may have to mix a few things though. What particular SP product are you interested in?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsure –

Pre-made raw food is very expensive and Primal is probably the most expensive brand of all. Pre-made raw really is financially impractical for large breed dogs and multi-dog households. If you want to feed raw I’d highly recommend researching homemade raw and learning to make your own. Homemade raw is higher quality than pre-made raw and it’s much cheaper. I’m currently spending under $200 per month to feed my two girls raw – they’re both around 70 lbs. and they each eat about 2 lbs. of meat/bone/organ + extras (eggs, kefir, veggies, supplements, etc.) per day. If you go to the raw food forum there’s a thread with recommended menus, you can check out what I feed my girls there. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a great book for beginners getting started on homemade raw.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi ldarlin –

I found the website for LM Farms. I’m assuming the supplement you’re interested in is the Nutrition Booster for Puppy? Unfortunately I don’t see a complete ingredient list. Where it lists “Ingredient Sources” I see that it contains flax, sunflower seed, albumin, sunflower oil, yogurt and DHA – these are all fine but I’m not sure what the other ingredients are.

[SandyandMila]

HDM- I’m trying to replicate your whole food vitamin/mineral supplement. I found everything at the natural food store except they had chlorella but not in powder form. Is wheatgrass juice powder the same as the wheatgrass powder you use? If I make this supplement minus the bee pollen I already use (granular form) and the chlorella powder, how much would I be giving her? Will that be only when I feed grind mixes?

[Anonymous]

Hi HDM,

I am starting my Golden/Aussie mix on a supplement and I wanted to ask your opinion. I saw your post about recommending Wellytails, Nature’s Logic, and Dr. Harvey’s, but I will need to order them since they are not available locally. I saw a supplement at my local pet store called LM Farms Nutrition Booster. Do you know if this supplement would be a good one to use? Thank you for all your time and help!

[SandyandMila]

So I purchased the Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier yesterday and fed it to Mila with her Bravo blend burger for dinner yesterday. My cat didn’t like it so much, she could tell right away something was up with her food. lol Anyways, the directions say to add it to dry or wet food. I predominantly feed raw (whether Primal complete formulas, or the Bravo turkey blend bugers, and grinds and RMBs when I have them) but do still feed dry and canned food if I have to about once or twice a week. Should I still add the Nature’s Logic to the dry and canned as well or would a green superfood supplement, as recommended above, be better?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Mary –

Of the foods you mentioned I believe Orijen is the best choice. I would never feed TOTW as it’s manufactured by Diamond. Fromm is a great company but the food is really overpriced for the quality and not worth the expense (imo). I wouldn’t stick with one food though. Rotating foods often will keep your dogs interested and will also strengthen their digestive system. If they prefer canned and you can afford to feed only canned this is actually preferable to feeding dry food – canned food is more species-appropriate than dry food due to the fact that it’s less processed, high in moisture and higher in protein. Most dogs also find dehdyrated or freeze-dried (both of which you rehydrate prior to feeding) and raw foods more palatable than dry food – these options are healthier than dry food as well. For the loose stools try adding a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin and a probiotic supplement to their meals, this may help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes that’s the site I order from. There really isn’t a difference between human supplements and animal supplements. It’s important to make sure whatever human supplement you plan on using for your dog contains ingredients safe for dogs (generally not a concern with digestive supplements and joint supplements) and you’ll need to adjust the dose according to your dog’s weight. The main difference is that pet supplements usually come in powders or meat flavored chewables where human supplements typically come in tablets, capsules or softgels. With tablets I just crush them or split them and mix them in the food, for capsules I open them up and sprinkle the powder in their food and with softgels I use a thumbtack to poke a hole and squeeze it over the food. I wouldn’t use any of the pet probiotics the two I see that they offer aren’t as good as the human versions and they’re more expensive – Jarrow Pet Dophilus only has 5 strains of probiotics and costs $0.20 per serving and the Flying Basset Pro Animal Probiotic only has one strain and costs $0.27 per serving. The Swanson Ultra Soil-Based Organisms has 15 strains of probitoics + 5 enzymes + whole foods and only costs $0.11 per serving – since it’s made for humans I’d also assume it’s better quality.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pacer1978]

Thanks Hound Dog Mom…is this by chance the correct website that you order from?

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-soil-based-organisms-90-caps

I did notice that they also offer a pet probiotic. Do you recommend the human probiotic over that because you had mentioned that they are higher quality? If that is the case, why are there “pet” supplements to begin with? Thanks again!!

[WhippetsGo2]

I am posing this situation for a whippet friend in our club. Their 3 year old whippet was not been eating regularly starting beginning of this summer. Tried different foods and such to no avail. Just recently he refused to go on a walk and at the same time the owner noticed that his breathing pattern was off. He was taken to the vet and they discovered through a chest x-ray that he had fluid in his lungs. They drained the fluid, sent it out for testing and it came back as being chylous. They were told, in layman’s terms that means he has trouble digesting fats. He was put on a prescription low fat diet and eating again but 12 days later his breathing symptoms came back and he was rushed to the vet where they extracted even more fluid from his lungs. The vet wants to give the low fat diet a chance to work but if the fluid should return a third time, he wants to do an ultrasound to see if there are any heart issues associated.

In my rudimentary searches, the appearance of fat is expected in chylous fluid. Anyone have any experience? Onset of heart disease? Want to help my peeps ask the right questions.

Brian
4 x Whippets for racing, coursing, agility & show
Feeds raw, supplements with 6 Fish and Stella’s Freeze Dried for the road.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Check out Swanson’s – I’d recommend Dr. Langer’s 15 Strain Probiotic or Swanson Ultra Soil-Based Microorganisms. Both are high quality and reasonably priced. Swanson’s also has a great price on their organic extra virgin coconut oil. I order all my supplements an my dogs’ supplements from here.

[pacer1978]

Thank you for your responses. I wasn’t sure if the human supplements would still be beneficial for dogs. So…this is what I plan on doing. Can you let me know if this is recommended? I switch dog food every now and then (all 4-5 star brands). Currently, I have them on Solid Gold MMellenium. I give Mia (4-yr old Weim) and Lucy (guessing age to be around 10, not sure of breed, she is a mix) 2 Nordic Naturals fish capsules for dogs per day. I give Mattie (12-yr old Weim) and Lucy 1 Dasuquin per day. I will most likely start Mia on this soon as well. I plan on starting them on Coconut oil (heard there was a good brand through Costco or Cocotherapy was also good). Also considering probiotic..or prebiotic? Which is better? Any brands you would recommend for the pro/prebiotic?
They issues they experience:
For the most part, they are healthy with the occasional allergy bouts (chewing/licking paws). Lucy gets watery eyes..which has gotten a little better after getting her teeth cleaned (they pulled 4 teeth). Weims tend to get bad hips as they age, hence the Dasuquin. Mia sheds a lot for a Weim and Lucy does as well, Mattie not too bad. Mia also tends to have what appears to be flaky skin and usually a rash or irritation on her chest (most likely from the mat in her cage since I crate her during the day. She gets in trouble and tears papers up around the house when I don’t). I keep the mat clean, so I’m not really sure why this keeps happening. I’ve tried different types of mats thinking maybe she is allergic to the material, but that doesn’t help. I’m mainly just looking to improve their overall health and wasn’t sure if doing all this would be wasting money or actually helping. Thanks again!!

[SandyandMila]

I thought I read somewhere on here someone had mentioned Puritan’s Pride Green Source but not sure where. Would think product be a multi/whole food/ green supplement all in one? I had seen this at a local natural food store and remembered someone mention it in here. When should it be used (homemade raw, commercial raw, kibble/canned). How much, would it be half the adult amount? If I get Natures Logic all-food fortifier, would I use it in conjunction with Green Source or alternate with it. I’m still confused with supplementing and when to give which.

[DogFoodie]

I once talked to my TCVM vet about cardiac supplements (hoping to prevent any cardiac issues in my beloved Cavalier) and he recommends Standard Process Canine Cardiac Support, but only if a dog has a heart condition that necessitates it ~ rather than for prevention. You have to buy it from an approved Standard Process veterinary supplier. Check for a supplier near you here: https://www.standardprocess.com/HCP-Search

Here’s a link for the product: https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/Veterinary-Formulas/Canine-Cardiac-Support

[Mom2Cavs]

I have a Cavalier, my Black & Tan, Hazel who has a grade 2 murmur. I have used supplements in the past but atm I’m not using any. Hazel has had her murmur since 2 months old (probably born with it) and she’s 6 years old now. I hasn’t changed yet. COQ10, Hawthorn, Taurine, L-Carnitine are good for the heart. I’ve given supplements for humans and made for dogs. Some of the ones made for dogs are: Cardio Strength, Bio Cardio, the supplement from Nature’s Farmacy (I think it’s called Heart Strength?). There’s also a site called Mainly Dogs that has one.

[emchide]

Hi everyone, and thanks for such an informative site with a lot of informative posts by those willing to share their hard-learned experiences. I’ve been poring over a lot of the discussions and digging in to the facts presented, and I’m trying hard not to duplicate questions already asked.

One manufacturer I came across seems not to have a presence on this website yet – it’s listed in the topic, GreenTripe.com. What particularly intrigues me are their various formulations using trachea, gullet, and pancreas, among others. What do you experienced raw food people think of this variation? At a glance, it looks like shipping costs might be somewhat prohibitive unless ordering in serious bulk.

I’m thinking my best bet to start is simply checking with the local grocers for various RMBs and organs on the cheap and using those as well as eggs, yogurt, and so on as a topper for grain-free kibble (currently rotating among Halo Puppy Salmon, Halo Surf and Turf, Nature’s Variety Instinct Duck, and Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit with canned toppings like Wellness Core and Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe). Ideally I would eventually transition to all home-prepared ingredients but I definitely need to read up more on vegetables and supplements for a while first.

Oh, and my dog is a four-month old boxer/pit mix – he’s growing like a weed and I’m slightly concerned we’ve been using a few too many treats for training in addition to his three meals a day as he’s gone from 13 lbs on June 12 when we adopted him to 32 currently, but he seems healthy as a horse and has great energy. The only issue seems to be some scratching and itching which has somewhat receded as his flea treatment has kicked in (I still find fleas on him but they seem unwell and are easy to catch and crush), but he came home on SD of course from the SPCA so I am hoping that dietary improvements might eliminate any potential skin issues if they exist.

I look forward to gleaning a lot more valuable knowledge from these discussions, and thanks again for expending the energy to inform more people – I really appreciate the love-driven data!

• This topic was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by emchide.
• This topic was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by emchide.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Thanks very much, hdm. I will check out the supplements you mentioned.

[little pea]

PattyV

The leaky gut. I read about this a few days prior and was shocked. Especially because the girl’s highest allergy was to yeast. And I knew stolen loaves of bread from the counter were having some effect.
In addition in Feb/March we had one of the worst bouts of overall scratching, paw chewing and ear infection. The weather was wet and she had been recently professionally groomed. And dog loves to just stand or lay down in the rain. Primary suspect yeast infection . So began a steroid, pills, and medicated ear wash… the ears taking over 2 weeks to clear.
She looked and acted perfect in April/May.
Late May blowing coat and itching, itching and coat continues to fall well into June. Itching starts up, I don’t recall heavy paw chewing. I flew in a professional newf groomer prior to a late June show and we had long talks on coat care, drying, etc etc… and etc And a steroid shot.
I do not think we have leaky gut, but my gut says yeast is on a high watch list.
I did talk to a Holistic vet clinic and they even suggested a special Derm vet…which does scratch test as opposed to blood. I thinks it is too far to go.
The dog’s skin at this time is in perfect condition and has been since April. Yet we continue with the face, ear, and frequent scratch to those areas and a frontal paw chew. After switching to Ziwi peak venison in June red eyes and the clear discharge have pretty much been eliminated. No red eyes.

The newbie in me is digging for answers, but I feel some simple solutions are more practical.
A raw diet…with supplements. Just need to figure it all out.
Thank-you.
You seem to be, a pretty sharp cookie.

[FreeholdHound]

Thank you!! Glad I’ve been lax in supplements the last 2 wks LOL. Will be copy/pasting this 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Cyndi –

No, you would not need to add a multivitamin is using a pre-mix. You could add the Dr. Harvey’s supplement still if you wanted. Make sure not to use a pre-mix with a grind which contains bone.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay gotcha. No, what we feed wouldn’t be considered “prey model.” Those that follow prey model believe dogs should eat meat, bones and organs only – nothing else. Many refer to ground raw meat and veggie diets as “BARF” style. I would consider my feeding style to be a BARF/Prey Model Hybrid. My dogs get a prey model style dinner each night (RMBs and whole offal) but their breakfast is ground with veggies and whole food supplements.

As far as garlic it’s very beneficial if given in small quantities but I’m not sure how much it would increase the palatability. My girls get a couple cloves three days per week. Garlic is a natural broad-spectrum antibiotic. Garlic is also a prebiotic and contains antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral and anti-carcinogenic properties. The sulfur content also acts as a natural insect repellent. You’d want to give the following amounts 3 – 4 days per week: under 10 lbs – 1/4 clove; 10 to 20 lbs. – half a clove; 20 to 50 lbs. – 1 clove; 50 to 75 lbs. – 2 cloves; 75 to 100 lbs. – 2 and a half cloves; 100 lbs. and over – 3 cloves.

[Cyndi]

I have another question for you experienced ones. If I start using a premix, which for some reason I’ve never thought of doing before, do I still need to add a one a day vitamin and the Dr. Harvey’s Multi Vitamin Mineral & Herbal Dog Supplement and eggs and stuff like that? I’m kind of figuring I wouldn’t have to still, but figured I’d ask. I order from Chewy and I am leaning towards Dr. Harvey’s Veg-to-Bowl Grain free pre-mix or Grandma Lucy’s Artisan Grain Free Pre-mix. I would add the pre mix to Bailey’s breakfast grind, which is ground beef, ground organs, and ground tripe, I feed that to her every other day in the a.m. and I have been doing the whole carcass ground rabbit on the other days.

As usual, thanks in advance for your help! 🙂

[EHubbman]

I should clarify a bit, haha! The things I was reading were more along the lines of 50% meat/bone/organ and 50% raw fruit and veg (or other ratios around those amounts), which is why I was wanting to stay away from those, because that kinda seems like an obnoxious amount of fruit/veg. I was finding these ratios on pages for the BARF diet, where prey model raw pages were more towards meat/bone/organs with supplements.

More what I mean by feeling more towards prey model is what I’m seeing more frequently here and among those I know that feed raw. The main majority of the meal is meat/bone/organ, but they do supplement with good stuff. (Am I calling it the wrong thing by saying prey model?)

Patty, that mix sounds like a good treat! I’m sure Dom would love it, he loves frozen treats.

HDM, Thanks! I’ll definitely be checking in on those books. A good friend just recommended “Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals” by Lew Olson, so I’ve been trying to read that.

Random thought, since I’ve seen it a few times on forums: Garlic for dogs? I would think that since it’s a member of the allium family, wouldn’t it be bad for dogs? Yet I see people saying “add it to the food to make your dog eat it!”

[Hound Dog Mom]

EHubbman –

If you decide to go the strict prey model route be very careful. Most strict prey model diets are deficient in key nutrients unless synthetic supplements are added – there’s a reason why there are no meat/bone/organ grinds that conform to AAFCO standards (to my knowledge), they’re all labeled for intermittent or supplemental feeding only. The thing is, it’s not very difficult to conform to the AAFCO nutrient profiles either. Also if you’re visiting prey model forums take everything you read with a grain of salt – there is a lot of misinformation thrown around on these forums. As someone just starting out I would strongly recommend picking up a copy of “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown and “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Dr. Karen Becker. I also second everything Patty posted concerning the importance of antioxidants.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

One other thing I didn’t think to mention in my previous post is that if you are looking to cut costs but want to continue to give your dogs high quality joint supplements look into human joint supplements – this also goes for all other supplements (probiotics, enzymes, etc.) as well. Human supplements tend to be higher in quality and generally cost significantly less per dose. Just adjust the dose – 1/4 human dose per 25 lbs. (dogs >100 lbs. can have the recommended human dose). Swanson’s is where I shop for all my dogs’ supplements.

[theBCnut]

When feeding all commercial dog food, I would still give digestive enzymes, probiotics, fish oil, and some kind of superfood supplement.

[bullterriermom]

My dog has a level 2 heart murmur. Are their any supplements I should add to my dogs food, to help her? Is it ok to take her for 30-45 min walks, play ball in the yard ect? I want to do what’s best by her, and make sure I’m not causing her harm by being active with her. I have heard if her breed is inactive they can get destructive and obviously I don’t want that. I find info online and one page will say one thing and then a different page will say something completely different. I just don’t want to do the wrong things.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI pacer1978 –

Dasequin and cosequin are very similar and they’re both made by the same company – Nutramax Labs. Both contain glucosamine and chondroitin (Cosequin may also have an option with MSM) but in addition to the glucosamine and chondroitin, Dasequin also contains ASU – another ingredient believed to protect against cartilage damage. I’ve used some Vet’s Best products (I’m currently using their Dental Gel) and I think they make good products – it would be worth trying their joint supplements to see if your dog receives the same relief.

When feeding a balanced dog food supplements aren’t necessary (in fact synthetic vitamin/mineral supplements can potentially be harmful) but dogs can benefit from some supplements such as joint supplements, probiotics, enzymes and whole food based supplements. Probiotics are great – you can use a supplement or give your dog some plain yogurt or kefir a few days per week.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi beagleowner –

Is what you listed above all your dog gets? Are any supplements added aside from te glucosamine and fish oil? I’m asking because what you listed is extremely unbalanced and could result in some major issues if fed long term.

[pacer1978]

Does anyone know the difference between the two? I give my two older dogs (one being a Weimaraner) Dasuquin. I’ve been giving it to her for years and she seems to not have hip/joint issues. However, I noticed that Cosequin was a bit cheaper. I also saw another hip/joint product and was thinking of switching her to Vet’s Best. Does anyone know about their products and if they are good? If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it…so I may just leave her on the Dasuquin…but, was looking for a little more affordable alternatives.

Also, if you feed your dog good quality dog food, I heard that there wouldn’t be a need to give them supplements. How does anyone feel about that? With that being said, it is recommended to give a dog probiotics as well?

[EHubbman]

And lol, somebodysme! Knowing the coffee feeling today (from your first post)! I figured since these forums are such a wealth of.info, might as well ask this one!

Thanks for the great info on cod liver oil, HDM! I’ve got a few books on raw that I need to get reading and figure out where Dominic needs to be as far as supplements/add-ins.

Typing this on mobile, please excuse any weird typing!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by EHubbman.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Freeholdhound –

How many oz. of sardines and you feeding and how much does your dog weigh? Depending on how many oz you’re giving him 2 – 3 days per week may be too much.

If you’re feeding kefir 4 – 5 meals per week there’s no reason to give a probiotic supplement. It’s not going to hurt anything, but it’s just kind of a waste of money imo. You’d be better off getting an enzyme supplement and giving him enzymes with his kibble meals.

If you’re feeding kibble (balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) and meat/organ/bone/tripe grinds (balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) there’s not need to add ground eggshell and, in fact, you shouldn’t. You’ll throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio. Supplemental calcium should only be added to meals consisting of only boneless meat at the rate of 800 – 1,000 mg. per pound of meat fed.

If your dog is getting kibble at both meals there shouldn’t be a need for supplemental vitamin e – the kibble should have adequate amounts. If you do wish to continue adding e (which may provide some benefit given the fact that you’re feeding sardines a few times a week) you definitely don’t need to give 400 IU per day. My girls eat a completely homemade diet with no dietary source of vitamin e other than their supplement and still don’t get anywhere near that much – I give them 200 – 300 IU per day (they’re both around 70 lbs.) I would say 400 IU once per week would be plenty. While vitamin e toxicity is rare – it is a fat soluble vitamin so you don’t want to go overboard.

I hope that helps!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[FreeholdHound]

Oh my- I need a flip chart just to READ this thread! I’m lost & clueless! Advice please..
I’m feeding kibble in the AM and kibble mixed w/ premade grinds (meat,organ,bone, & tripe) in the PM
I add in:
Ground sardines 2-3 meals per week
Crused egg w/shell 2-3 meals/week
Kefir 4-5 meals/week
Vitamin E cap (400 IU) when I remember to AM meal.
I have the Dr Stephen Langer 15 strain Probiotic coming in the mail tomorrow.
Salmon oil is not tolerated by Harry AT ALL.
Suggestions please would be appreciated!
We’re just starting out on the raw mix ins & trying to figure out supplements.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Assuming your dogs don’t have any health issues that would warrant frequent and higher doses of probiotics and enzymes, if it were me I would just supplement with enzymes on the days I fed kibble and give a high quality probiotic supplement every 2 – 3 days.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shilohsue –

I’m familiar with Missing Link. Looking at their puppy supplement (assuming that’s what you’d be using) there’s nothing in it that should pose a problem however I’m personally not impressed with their line of supplements – there are much better supplements out there. The biggest issue that I have with their supplements is that they all contain molasses – in other words sugar, it also only has on strain of probiotics which isn’t going to be of much benefit. Some supplements I’d recommend:

WellyTails Puppy Smart Start (I used this for one of my dogs until she was 6 months old) it contains colostrum, marine algae and microencapsulated fish oil which provide DHA and EPA, 6 strains of probiotics, 7 digestive enzymes, antioxidants and whole foods.

Nature’s Logic All-Food Fortifier which is completely whole food based and contains 5 strains of probiotics and 4 enzymes.

Dr. Harvey’s Formative Years for Puppies and Young Dogs which is an herb and whole food based supplement.

Frozen foods would be a better choice than freeze-dried foods because they’re less processed and they’re much cheaper to feed.

[Sue’s Zoo]

Hi hdm, pattyvaughn, and all the other wonderful contributors and questioners,

I’ve been reading and re-reading various posts in this informative forum topic. I’m love to have a way to print the topic and pull out all the info into a single document. May have to work on that

Anyway I will soon have my new puppy, a Shiloh Shepherd. We’ve always had GSDs, the last several we’re rescues but we went thru a breeder this time and I want to do everything possible to raise a healthy happy dog. My husband said I need grandkids based on how excited I am about this pup true but none of the kids are even remotely ready to be parents so….

Finally my questions. My breeder recommends a supplement called The Missing Link. Is anyone familiar with it? Thoughts, concerns? And I plan to feed raw or a combination of raw and kibble but l need to know if there’s a nutritional difference between freeze-dried and frozen. In other words are the ones on the list referring to frozen only or either?

Sending positive thoughts to pattyvaughn and anyone else awaiting test results.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Vitamin A can be harmful in excess because it’s a fat soluble vitamin – however you need to feed too much of it in order for it to build up. A capsule of cod liver oil per day would not come anywhere near toxic vitamin a doses. One capsule of Carlson Super Cod Liver Oil provides 2,000 IU vitamin a – the toxic dose (which needs to be given daily for months to create toxicity) is 113,600 IU per pound of food consumed on a dry matter basis. So assuming your dog eats one pound of food per day (dry matter) the dog would have to eat 50+ capsules of cod liver oil per day to result in vitamin a toxicity. I’ve ran a full nutrient analysis on my raw menus and they are well below the AAFCO’s safe upper limit for vitamin a levels. One of my menus I analyzed came out to 52,412 IU/kg and the other to 78,326 IU/kg – the AAFCO’s upper limit is 250,000 IU/kg. The problems arise when people substitute cod liver oil for fish body oil and use it to meet their dog’s omega 3 needs. Cod liver oil should not be used as an omega 3 supplement – it should be used in small doses as a whole food source of vitamin d. One of the reasons I use Carlson, in addition to the fact that their products are stringently tested for contaminants and contain high levels of vitamin e to preserve the fats, is that their cod liver oil is lower in vitamin a than many other brands.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

It’s all pretty confusing when you start out isn’t it?

I would like to start out by saying I strongly disagree with those that say supplements aren’t necessary for a raw diet. The thing is, if a dog was eating whole wild prey daily this may be true but that’s not practical in real life. It would be next to impossible to feed an actual prey model diet so people approximate it by feeding ratios of muscle meat, organ meat and bone (80:10:10) that mimic the ratios found in a whole prey animal. While this is a good estimate of the dog’s natural diet, it’s not going to provide all the nutrients a dog needs for various reasons: 1) Your dog isn’t getting the whole animal. When a dog eats prey in the wild it eats everything – all the organs, the glands, the brain, eyeballs, fur, feathers, sinew, some intestines and intestinal content, it even picks up some dirt of the ground where it’s eating. 2) Commercially raised meat such as what is available to us in the supermarket is not as mineral dense as wild prey. 3) Domestic dogs are bombarded with toxins on a daily basis that their wild relatives aren’t – i.e.) flea treatments, heart worm treatments, vaccines, exhaust fumes, cleaning chemicals, etc. etc. – and for this reason benefit from additional antioxidants in their diet that are provides through fruits, vegetables and whole super foods.

You do not need to supplement with enzymes when feeding a raw diet. Raw food contains enzymes. These enzymes are destroyed when the food is cooked and this is why kibble and canned foods should be supplemented with enzymes. Probiotic supplements are also a waste of money unless you have a dog with serious digestive issues. Feeding green tripe and/or plain yogurt and/or kefir at least a few times a week will maintain a healthy population of gut flora in a healthy dog.

You will need to add supplemental omega 3’s. You can do this by adding a quality fish body oil, cage free eggs or feeding a fatty fish such as sardines. If you want to feed sardines the recommend servings are (based on 3.75 oz. tin): 5 lbs. 1/4 tin, 15 lbs. 1/2 tin, 25 lbs. 5/8 tin, 50 lbs. 1 tin, 100 lbs. 1 3/4 tin – per week. If giving fish oil you want to add enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight. While the majority of a dog’s omega 3’s should come from animal sources, some plant based omega 3’s can be beneficial as well. If you’re feeding predominantly poultry, flax should be given to balance the fats and if you’re feeding predominantly red meat hemp seed should be given to balance the fats. My dogs get a cage free egg 3 days per week, Carlson brand salmon oil complete (with astaxanthin) daily and I also give small amounts of sprouted flax, sprouted chia, etc. If not supplementing with vitamin d, you should give cod liver oil as well. Carlson makes the highest quality cod liver oil – my girls each get 1 capsule of Carlson Super Cod Liver Oil daily which provides 250 IU vitamin d. If giving fish oil it’s very important not to skimp on quality – fish oil is one supplement you don’t want to find a bargain on. The cheaper brands are often rancid at purchase and don’t contain enough antioxidants to prevent oxidation. Coconut oil, as Patty pointed out, is comprised of MCT’s. Coconut oil can be given in addition to (but not instead of) omega 3’s. Coconut oil has antibacterial and antifungal properties. You can give up to 1/2 tsp. per 10 lbs. of body weight daily. My girls get coconut oil daily, I find it’s a healthy way to increase the fat level of their meals.

As Sandy pointed out, vitamin e is also necessary to add – this is especially important when supplementing with omega 3’s as vitamin e prevents the delicate fats from oxidizing in the body. For dogs <25 add 50 – 100 IU per day, 25 – 50 lbs. 100 – 200 IU per day, 50 – 75 lbs. 200 – 300 IU per day, 75 – 100 lbs. 300 – 400 IU per day, >100 lbs. 400 IU per day. I use NOW Foods Gamma E Complex – it has all 8 tocopherols and tocotrienols.

Other supplements my dogs get:

-A homemade super food mix. I generally use 1 part kelp, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part spirulina, 1 part wheat grass and 1 part bee pollen although I’ll sometimes sub in a different ingredient for variety. I buy most of my ingredients from Swanson or Starwest Botanicals in 1 lb. bags. This provides vital trace nutrients to the diet. I’d recommend about 1 tsp per 25 – 30 lbs. (roughly) for a supplement such as this.

-I give my dogs colostrum 3 days per week. Colostrum is high in immunoglobulins which helps strengthen the immune system.

-They get a glandular 3 days per week (opposite the colostrum). I use Natural Sources Raw Multiple.

If you read through the raw menu section I have my dog’s full menus (with supplements) posted.

I prefer to balance my dog’s diets using whole foods versus adding synthetic supplements. The nutrients from whole foods are more efficiently assimilated by the body and contain all the necessary co-factors for optimal absorption and utilization. There’s also a much lower chance of overdosing on nutrients when using whole foods.

If you have any more questions don’t be afraid to ask. 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[pugmomsandy]

coconut oil:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

Pet products: krill, probiotics, digestive enzymes, spirugreen

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx

http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/digestive-enzymes-for-pet.aspx

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_10/features/15752-1.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/spirugreen.aspx

It’s hard to get enough vit E from the diet so I supplement with a soy-free E capsule.

I also give a glandular supplement since my dogs don’t get to eat various organs.

http://mypetsfriend.com/pet-go-4.html

Human products are cheaper! I buy Mercola and SwansonVitamins products and both the humans and dogs get all these supplements! Not everyday though, just a couple days a week maybe since I buy the human products and have small dogs.

Also garlic and apple cider vinegar have health benefits too.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/2_6/features/5220-1.html

http://b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=index&main_page=newsletters

[theBCnut]

I know what you mean. I couldn’t keep up either and I kept getting certain things mixed up(still do) so I started an index card file to tell me what certain supplements are good for and what dose to give. I still have to go back through a couple threads and pick out th info I wanted to save. Like cod liver oil, I think you give it for the Vit D, but I’m not sure. And You have to be careful to get the right brand(I don’t remember which) or don’t give it very often, because it has too much vit A, again I think. That is one I don’t worry about because I only feed part raw. But one of these days…

BTW, cocnut oil is digested differently because it is a medium chain triglyceride, so it isn’t taxing to the pancreas if you find you need to add more fats to your dogs diet for some reason. It has both antibacterial and antifungal activity and it is good for the coat.

[EHubbman]

Complete newbie here! Reading the forums, I see so many things on prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, digestive enzymes, fish oil, krill oil, emu(?) oil, cod liver oil, fish body oil, coconut oils, etc, the list goes on and on! (What the heck is spirulina?)

What are these things, and what do they do? What are the pros/cons of giving them? Where do they come from (supplements v. naturally occurring, such as in a specific part of a raw diet)? When is it appropriate to give them, and how much per day per weight of dog?

Sorry for all the questions! Like I said, complete newbie, and looking in to starting a raw diet with my little guy. Some people say “yes, supplement!” While others say “Yes, but only THESE supplements,” while still others say “no, don’t supplement! If you feed raw right, you don’t have to!”

There’s so much info out there and this fourm has been such a wonderful help on other issues, I thought I’d throw this one out there.

Thank you for the help!

[crazy4cats]

Hello-
My sister’s lab was recently diagnosed with a thyroid issue. He is only about 4 years old, but he was becoming lethargic and gaining weight. She fed him less and less, but he didn’t seem to lose any weight or have anymore energy. She also noticed his hair was getting thinner and thinner. One morning all the hair on his snout was gone! I told her that his eyes look funny too. She finally took him to vet and they did a blood test that showed his thyroid levels were off. She started him on medication and you could notice a difference in his activity level in about three days. He’s lost weight, his hair is slowly coming back and his eyes are not buldgy anymore. He’ll have to be on it forever, but she says its not too expensive. The vet did not make any recommendations on any type of supplement or food. I’ve tried to talk to her about feeding something better, but she doesn’t seem too interested. But, anyway, the point being, if it is a thyroid issue, the medication works very well. He’s doing great!

[theBCnut]

If it turns out to be a thyroid issue then some type of seaweed supplement will help to make sure she is getting all the iodine she needs. Some Bostons just have alopecia and are otherwise just fine.

[EHubbman]

Ok! Back from the vet!

I was seriously not impressed with the care we got from the one I’d been bringing family pets to since I was six, so we went elsewhere. That seriously miffed me. They’d been great with all our other pets, but then I brought in my little guy at 14 weeks (!) and I think the vet just had it out for him because he’s seen as a bully breed. Vets shouldn’t be breedist, methinks, because they see good and bad examples of all breeds, big and small, bad rep or not. Off my soapbox, though. She wouldn’t believe me when I said he had tapeworms and even brought in a sample with the segment clearly sitting right on top, among other things. I talked to her about giardia and she’s like, no he doesn’t have it, without testing and seemed quite reluctant upon my insistence of it.

SO! New vet, recommended from a friend, who also happens to be a vet tech there, which was wonderful. They were going to run the EPI and fecal pathogen test, but the vet did a wellness check on him and his body condition, activity level, and personality were all awesome, so we’re starting first with a diet change. She said the funny color stools were because the last vet’s response to my saying “please help, diarrhea for a month now” was just to throw antibiotics at him that did nothing, so his gut is all sort of out of whack. The did a wellness check, fecal float, coccidia and giardia tests, and a few other things I don’t remember off the top of my head.

We’re trying a royal canin RX GI food (ewewew, I cringe at the ingredient list!) for two weeks. So for two weeks, all he’s allowed to ingest is the GI food, and boiled chicken as training treats. She wants to keep him on the Fortiflora (because she’s used to it) just for now, but when I asked her about the 15 strain supplement you told me about, she was all for it. We went for the abrupt change because his gut is so messed up, and once he’s stable we’re going to slowly transition him to raw. I love that I found a vet that is all for raw and can’t wait to help me swap to it!!! She seems amazing, and I love her team. 🙂 If, though, the 2 week seriously limited diet does nothing, though, then he gets to go through a gauntlet of testing. She’s almost completely certain, though, that it’s dietary and not anything seriously wrong, which helps me breathe easier.

Although I’m not a fan of the GI food ingredients and fortiflora, I’m ok with it for now, just to get him sorted. I want to give this vet a chance to try what she knows before I just go “Ew, no.” and be the brat that asks for help but won’t accept what’s given as help. That and because she wants to start working him toward raw asap. Who knows. We’ll see where it goes.

Not sure I’m gonna be able to deal with the puppy eyes when he doesn’t get to have his dried trachea…or bully sticks… or duck feeties…. o.o Haha!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Read the nutritional adequacy statement on the can. Most canned will conform to AAFCO standards for maintenance or growth/all life stages – this means that they are a complete and balanced food that can be fed on their own. A few canned foods are designed to be toppers only (i.e. fed along with a balanced kibble) and the nutritional adequacy statement on these cans will say “intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding only.”

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Hersy –

Oh my goodness, this is a lot to take in. First of all, I know that a lot of people may not want to know if their dog has cancer (kind of the “what I don’t know can’t hurt me” mentality) but if your vet suspects that your dog has cancer you should have the test done. I’m not sure what kind of budget you’re on but $60 sounds pretty cheap to me. Last time I had my dog in for “tests” (blood work, urinalysis) it ran me over $300. Before you start debating whether or not the dog undergoes treatment for cancer it would just be best to figure out whether or not the dog even has cancer. The earlier cancer is detected the better the prognosis. In the event that she does have cancer (which I sincerely hope is not the case) there will likely be both conventional and alternative treatments that you can consider – you may not be able to cure the condition but you could certainly extend her remaining time and keep her comfortable. Determining an appropriate treatment should be a bridge that you cross when you come to it. There definitely are diets and supplements that can boost the immune system. The less processed the diet it and the lower in carbohydrates, the better it will stave off cancer. Kibble should be avoided if at all possible – when meats are cooked at high temperature (such is the case with rendered meat meals and extruded kibbles) heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons can be formed – laboratory experiments have shown HCAs and PAHs to be mutagenic. Tumors feed on glucose (a simple sugar found in most carbohydrates) so carbohydrate levels should be limited. Supplements such as medicinal mushrooms, turmeric and bromelain have been shown to have anti-cancer effects. Colostrum, probiotics and astralaus are great immune boosters. Let us know how everything goes – you and Charlotte will be in my thoughts.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sharfie –

I base the dosage on the assumption that a person is 100 lbs. So a 25 lb. dog should get 1/4 the recommended human dose, a 50 lb. dog should get 1/2 the recommend human dose, a 75 lb. dog should get 3/4 the recommended human dose and dogs 100 lbs. + should get the full human dose. With most supplements (such as probiotics) there’s no real danger of overdose so it’s not critical that you get the dosage exactly right. A good rule of thumb for fish oil is to give enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight.