[InkedMarie]

I will give you some advice as it pertains to one of my dogs. I did not do allergy testing but an online friend gave me a list of ingredients to avoid: chicken, corn, wheat, soy, rice and flax. I have since found that Boone does fine with flax but cannot have yeast. He has done the best with a grain and potato free foods. Beef can be a common allergen, I have read. On this forum, go to the dog food ingredients board and the stickie at the top has the list of those foods.
Boone does best with fish and turkey foods. He eats a pre made raw in the morning and some of that is beef and he has no issue with it. His pre made is also turkey and duck. He eats Brothers Allergy, which has chicken liver & chicken at but is doing great on this food.
Something to keep in mind. You have to be mindful of every morsel your dog eats. That means treats as well. If you feed him a grain free food, feed him grainfree treats. Scour that ingredients list. Also, you wouldn’t think about it but supplements as well. Mixed tocopherols can be soy so the salmon oil I give him is just that, salmon oil (it’s a liquid). I once gave him a salmon oil capsule that had soy as a secondary ingredient. We use Bug Off Garlic for the insects and we cannot use the chewables because there is yeast in it.
I advise trying a few different foods, by different makers. I like doing that because you never know if a food will become unavailable or you see a sale on another one he can have. Hope I’ve been of help!

[shelties mom]

Hi all,
I have access to get raw, grass-fed bone meal from a local farmer. Does anyone use something like this and how do I calculate how much to add per lb of raw meat? Do I need to add in eggshells? Trying to avoid using cooked bone meal from the health food stores.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay so my dogs have been on their previous menu more about 6 weeks now and I’m about to switch things up for another month or two. I’ll post the new menu I’ll be starting next week to give more ideas to those interested in homemade raw.

Mondays/Wednesdays/Fridays

a.m. (divided between 3 dogs)
-1 lb. 90% Lean Ground Beef
-1 lb. Ground Green Beef Tripe
-1 lb. Ground Beef Organs (Heart, Liver, Kidneys, Lungs, Spleen, Trachea, Gullet)
-1 C. Fruit/Vegetable/Herb Puree*
-1/2 C. Cottage Cheese
-1/2 C. Sprouted Quinoa (run through food processor)
-2 tbs. Whole Food Multi-Vitamin/Mineral*
-1 tbs. Ground Raw Pumpkin Seeds
-1 tbs. Coconut Oil
-1 tbs. Krill Oil
-1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother
-2 tsp. Ground Eggshell
-800 i.u. Vitamin E Capsule

p.m. (per dog)
-2 Turkey Necks (approx. 12 oz.)
-8 oz. Turkey Hearts

Tuesdays/Thursdays/Saturdays

a.m. (divided between 3 dogs)
-3 lbs. Venison Meat and Organ Mix (from a whole deer)
-1 C. Fruit/Vegetable/Herb Puree
-1 C. Kefir
-2 tbs. Whole Food Multi-Vitamin/Mineral
-2 tbs. Sprouted Chia
-1 tbs. Reduced Vitamin A Cod Liver Oil
-1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother
-3 tsp. Ground Eggshell
-800 i.u. Vitamin E Capsule

p.m. (per dog)
-Chicken Back (approx. 10 oz.)
-Chicken Foot (approx. 2 oz.)
-2 oz. Chicken Gizzards
-2 oz. Chicken Hearts
-2 oz. Chicken Livers
-Egg (without shell)

Sundays

a.m. (per dog)
-2 Whole Prey Quail (Approx. 1 1/2 lbs.)

p.m. -Fast

*Fruit/Vegetable/Herb Puree:
(I make up a big batch running all the ingredients through a food processor and freeze in ice cube trays. After they freeze I store all the cubes in giant ziplock bags in the freezer – each cube is approx. 1 fl. oz.)
-1 lb. Fresh Celery (blanch before pureeing)
-1 lb. Fresh Beets (blanch before pureeing)
-1 lb. Fresh Carrots (blanch before pureeing)
-1 lb. Fresh Kale (blanch before pureeing)
-1 lb. Frozen Butternut Squash
-1 lb. Frozen Spinach
-1 lb. Frozen Broccoli
-2 Apples
-1 Banana
-1 lb. Frozen Mixed Berries (Blueberries, Raspberries, Strawberries)
-8 oz. Frozen Cranberries
-2 Bunches Parsley
-2 Bunches Cilantro
-1 Head Garlic

*Whole Food Multi-Vitamin/Mineral Supplement:
-4 oz. Kelp Powder
-4 oz. Alfalfa Powder
-4 oz. Wheatgrass Powder
-4 oz. Spirulina Powder
-4 oz. Chlorella Powder
-4 oz. Bee Pollen Powder
-4 oz. Turmeric Powder

[pugmomsandy]

jnite,

Natures Variety Instinct Raw Boost is a convenient freeze-dried powder supplement you can add to food and it has 8% fiber.

http://www.instinctpetfood.com/instinct-raw-boost-healthy-supplements-pets

[pugmomsandy]

sheltiesmom,

I’m currently using Dr Harveys MultiVitamin supplement currently and definitely give krill oil and intermittently give coconut and emu oil and now will begin adding some chia seed for some more omega 3.

[shelties mom]

pugmomsandy:
Thank you for sharing your tips. I only have 2 small shelties each weighs 15 lbs, but still want to go with all home-made. If I only grind chicken, I suppose I can go with a cheaper grinder but I want to provide variety. So what is your opinion on Dr. Becker’s supplement recipe? Have you tried it yet? I’m thinking I should follow it and use HDM’s green supplement mix. My dogs have flaky skin, I think there is something missing from their current diet: 1/2 Darwin’s, half home-made. I use grass-fed red meat for home-made since Darwin’s red meat is grain-finished.

[soho]

Hi Safarisam

These recommendations are just my opinion and I am NOT a vet. This is just what I would do if I were in your situation. I would try to find a holistic or integrative vet to be part of your healthcare team in dealing with your dogs diet and his diabetes!

There are many many options for your pom. Since you mentioned you would love to make his food here is one option. Buy ground turkey, ground beef and chicken breasts from your local supermarkets. Buy some frozen vegetables, no onions or starchy veggies like potatoes and no grains. His diet should be at least 80% meat and no more then 20% vegetables.

You can steam the veggies and then mash them up or you can puree them in a blender or food processor without cooking them. The idea is to make the veggies easier to digest since dogs don’t process veggies that well. The meats can be lightly cooked using low heat. I would be cautious about giving raw food to your dog at this point because it is hard for anyone to judge the condition of his immune system and the damage that has been done from the diabetes. A good immune system is necessary to handle the bacteria from raw food.

Since there are no bones in this diet a calcium supplement is necessary. If it is made for dogs it will have the dosages on the label. A multivitamin is also necessary because it is difficult for the home prepared diet to be complete and balanced without adding vitamins and minerals. Again if it is made for dogs the dosage will be on the label. I would also add some digestive enzymes and some sardines for their omega 3 content. The sardines would be part of the 80% meat portion of the diet. additional toppers like green tripe and organ meats can be rotated in the 80% part of the diet. Toppers should be no more then 20% of the total diet.

This is a start and there are many more options than the one I have given. A good book for you to help with your dogs diet would be see spot live longer by Steve Brown.

I wish you and your pomeranian the very best!

[jnite]

I was just wondering if there is a fiber supplement of some sort just to bump up her fiber. Kira, my min pin had an anal gland rupture on thanksgiving, october for us Canadians, the vet recommended pumpkin, but she absolutely hates it so I am looking for something else. I have her on acana ranchlands as it has a 5% fiber content.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Raw milk naturally contains probiotics – pasteurized milk doesn’t because the pasteurization process destroys the probiotics. I would say that as long as your dog isn’t experiencing any digestive issues that would require high doses of probiotics, feeding him raw milk on a regular basis would be plenty for keeping his gut flora in balance. I feel that for healthy dogs without digestive issues that consume foods naturally rich in probiotics on a regular basis (such as raw green tripe, kefir, raw milk, yogurt, etc.) it’s unnecessary (and kind of a waste of money) to supplement with probiotics.

[shelties mom]

HDM,
I give my dogs raw grass-fed goat milk, can I eliminate probiotic supplement?

[InkedMarie]

Does your dog have any allergies or anything? I have a yeasty dog and just found out, this week, that I need to make sure he has an animal enzyme, not plant. We’re all still learning but glad to read you don’t want to put him on the vets food. Don’t!!

[shelties mom]

Dr. Becker’s recipes have organs included, do I need to add Pet GO supplement? Or is that for recipes without organs?

[Hound Dog Mom]

That’s the same way I feel and why I personally choose to make everything from scratch. I’m picky about what my dogs eat and every food or supplement out there there’s either something in it that I don’t want there or something that I wish was there that isn’t. By making my own food and supplements I can completely customize everything.

[shelties mom]

HDM,
Thank you for sharing your recipe. This is what I’ve been looking for and will order the supplements from the site you posted. I’m excited to do it on my own as I believe I will have a better control of the quality of ingredients I put in the food.

[shelties mom]

HDM,

I really like your whole food supplement recipe, what do you recommend if a dog is allergic to turmeric? I don’t know if mine will but I read somewhere that a dog was allergic. I have Dr. Karen Becker’s recipe book and will use the recipes as a guide, but really want to avoid any synthetic vitamins in her book. That’s what holding me up in doing all home-made. I’ve been feeding Darwin’s but want to it on my own. I don’t like the pre-mixes from THK or Sojos or any dehydrated food. I prefer all raw and fresh veggies. I can get grass-fed beef, lamb and raw wet bone meal from a local farmer, I’m going to visit some local butchers to see if I can get quality poultrys. Once I can get everything together, I’m ready to start doing it on my own.

[shelties mom]

pugmomsandy:

I’m interested in using Dr. Becker’s recipes, do you follow her supplement recomendation? Which green & glandular supplements do you use? I prefer to use whole food supplements.

[soho]

Hi i8ok

Thank you for your reply! Let’s take a closer look at the Plato Organic Chicken strips.
First the marketing claims:
Over 90% organic chicken
Natural ingredients, fortified with antioxidant vitamins, and zinc
No artificial colors, flavors, synthetic preservatives, or GMO’s (genetically modified organisms)
Naturally preserved.
Antioxidant vitamins E and С
No meat by-products or meals

Second the Actual Numbers and ingredients:
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude protein: 30% min
(How in the world are these treats over 90% chicken and only 30% protein?)
Crude fat: 30% min
(Where did all this fat come from if the treats are over 90% chicken?)
Crude fiber: 1% max
Moisture: 15% max
(This moisture level is a little too high in my opinion to guarantee against spoilage.)
Zinc: 180mg/kg min
Vitamin E: 101 lU/kg min
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 50mg/kg min*
Omega 6 Fatty Acids –
Omega 3 Fatty Acids –
Iron –

INGREDIENTS
Organic chicken, organic brown rice, salt, zinc propionate, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2phosphate (a source of vitamin C), mixed tocopherols (a natural preservative), rosemary extract.

—————————————————————————————————————————-

Now lets take a look at the facts about my chicken jerky:
Made from boneless, skinless chicken breasts bought at the deli section of Costco. This is not pet grade chicken. I know that there are a million marketing claims concerning the chicken in pet foods and treats but not one of the commercial brands are made using supermarket meat like I use. This is the same meat that you and your family eat.

You say you wont eat farm raised fish or feed it to your dog. I respect you for that. But why would you feed your dog pet grade chicken which is a by product of the human grade food business? Pet grade chicken (or any other pet grade meat for that matter) is what is left over after everything that can be used for human grade chicken is removed! And that’s the good stuff. The bad pet grade meats are the Dead, Dying, Downed or Diseased meats that never made into the human food chain in the first place!

Ingredients: 99.8% boneless skinless chicken breasts, salt, garlic. The only thing added to my chicken jerky is 0.2% spices (salt and garlic).

Guaranteed analysis as fed:
Protein 87%
(You read that right 87% now what treat could be better for a meat eater)
Fat 4.5%
(This is what the fat could be in other products if they used the same chicken breasts that I do)
Carbohydrate 0%
(Remember dogs have no biological need for carbs)
Minerals 3.5%
(This is what ash is)
Fiber 0%
Moisture 5%
(5% moisture is low enough to ensure against spoilage)

The chicken I use is Whole Chicken Breasts intended FOR human consumption. Not ground pet grade chicken (Plato)

My chicken jerky is JUST chicken and 0.2% spices. Plato uses brown rice as a filler.

When you look at the facts my jerky is a great value. Compare my jerky to other human grade jerky products sold for human consumption and you will see that my jerky is an OUTSTANDING value!

Thank you aimee

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Naya –

If you read through the comments on the Blue Buffalo threads and checkout the complaints about Blue Buffalo on consumer affairs, you’ll see that many people’s dogs are getting diarrhea on Blue. A friend of mine actually started her new puppy on Blue this past summer and she had horrible diarrhea for a month, she then switched the food and it cleared up within a day. I’d recommend just picking any 5 star food and add a few spoonfuls on plain canned pumpkin to boost the fiber rather than specifically looking for food based on fiber content (that would greatly limit your choices). You may also want to consider getting a high quality digestive supplement with pro-biotics and enzymes to get your dog’s digestive system back on track. This is a really good one: http://total-zymes.com/total-biotics.html . Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Marie –

Kefir is a fermented milk beverage. The consistency is somewhere between yogurt and milk. It’s a lot richer in probiotics than milk and most brands I’ve seen contain at least 10 strands. I buy it for my dogs at the grocery store. I think that for healthy dogs that don’t need specialized supplementation it’s a much cheaper way to give them some probiotics.

[awatson48169]

Hi! We have an eight year old greyhound. He’s been eating Taste of the Wild Salmon and loves it. We’re happy with it too because it seems like to has good nutritional value for the price.

Recently, he’s been having some issues with digestion. The vet recommended putting him on Hill’s Prescription Diet, but before we switch to that we’ve started adding a fiber supplement to his food:

Ingredients: Organic Maitake, Organic Shitake, Organic Lion’s Mane, Organic Beech, Organic Turkey Tail, Organic Oyster, Vitamins B1, B12, C + D; Polysaccharides, Triterpenes, Natural Enzymes, Prebiotics, Dietary Fiber

Does anyone have any thoughts on this supplement? It’s made in the USA and it seems like others are getting good results, but we’re curious if anyone has any insight into the ingredients. Also, if you have any other fiber supplements you use, we’d like to hear about them.

Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Loren –

NWC Nature’s makes a great digestive supplement called Total Biotics, it’s the best I’ve seen. It has 14 strains of probiotics, prebiotics and enzymes. Some other good probiotics are Mercola’s and Garden of Life’s Primal Defense. Adding a spoonful or two of canned pumpkin might be a good idea too, the fiber in the pumpkin can help firm things up.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Panda,

It looks like this food contains white potato. Give it some time, but if the problem isn’t resolved with your new choice, you might want to refer back to Hound Dog Mom’s suggestion to choose another food that doesn’t contain white potato and possibly a novel protein.

Here are the ingredients for your new food:

Ingredient Listing/Guaranteed Analysis
Sweet Potatoes, Salmon, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil, Potato Fiber, Natural Flavor, Sodium Chloride, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, DL-methionine, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

[Shawna]

No, Audrey has never had any other issues except the kd. Blood pressure is good.. Her kidneys didn’t develop properly before being born. I do everything in my power to make sure she has little to no inflammation in her body. I don’t have any toxins in my home that the kidneys/liver have to filter. I looked at the ingredients in all the products I used (swiffer sweeper cleaning liquid etc) and checked their MSDS or the CDC to see if each ingredient was kidney friendly. I got rid of almost all cleaners etc I was using prior to Audrey coming to me. Many (actually most) of them were “green” too.

She also only gets reverse osmosis or distilled water.. The tap water in my area is not truly “clean” (has fluoride etc).

I do give her nutraceuticals as well — she gets enzymes with EVERY meal. She gets the pro and prebiotics as needed. She gets a product called Canine Renal Support from Standard Process which I think has been a HUGE part of her health. I also give her Canine Hepatic Support to help her liver. The liver is more likely to get stressed because the kidneys aren’t doing their part. She gets extra vitamin B complex and C — these are water soluble vitamins and are lost in excess due to the large volumes of urine so they need to be supplemented. Most vets don’t discuss these kinds of things that will help our kd pups live a longer healthier life…

Audrey has NEVER had a rabies shot. She is exempted for life. She’s never had any vaccines except her first puppy shots (distemper, parvo and adeno). No lymes, lepto, kennel cough etc. They know that vaccines can stress the kidneys. She also has never had flea/tick or heartworm meds, pharmaceutical dewormers etc. ALL of these add insult to injury.

I haven’t used it but I’ve spoken with others that have had very very good success with an herbal regimen by Five Leaf Pharmacy (my father is a Master Herbalist so he could make these for me at less than half the cost—otherwise I probably would have tried them).. He liked the formulas.. http://caninekidneyhealth.com/

[Toxed2loss]

Hey Labman,
You didn’t say what you were feeding, in your post above. Not sure if you’ve posted that somewhere else on the site, but it is important. Your dog’s food is the foundation of her health.

Back before I knew better, I fed really bad dog food to my beloved pointer cross, Morgan. Ol’ Roy, I’m ashamed to say. I was just flat out ignorant!! When she was 12 she slept most of the time, she barely moved, just like yours. Well, my husband decided he needed a new bird dog, so he went out and bought a highly trained purebred, 3 yr old field registered pointer. The owner had health issues and he made it a condition of the sale to feed “high quality” food. Well, he knew more than us, but not as much as he should of, too. He was feeding Iams lamb & rice. A whole lot better than Ol’ Roy!!! So we put both dogs on the better food. Dang!!!! But after a few weeks that dog got up one day and followed my husband 1/4 mile out to the back fence. He turned around and saw her there, wagging her tail and was so worried he carried her (60 lbs) in his arms all the way back to the house. She was lively and healthier for 2-3 more years.

Fast forward to what I know now, feeding your dog THE BEST nutrition makes all the difference! (That’s not Iams!) its balanced raw. If you don’t want to, or can’t, feed raw, then a 5 star meat based kibble. Brother’s Complete is my best pick of kibbles. Hound Dog Mom has posted a lot of recipes and information on raw feeding under that thread, and I’d encourage you to check it out if raw is the way you’d like to go. Shawna is the best resource for nutritional information. Mike P & JohnandChristo rock for feeding kibble plus toppers! Dogs should be living 20-30 years. They were 80 years ago. But that was when they weren’t being feed corn & wheat based dog food. They also weren’t routinely exposed to toxins from flea & tick pesticides, worm pesticides, heavy metals poisoning in vaccines and being over vaccinated… Reducing the environmental toxins will improve your pups health, too! Supplements are just supplements. They can help a little, but they work best synergistically with optimal nutrition.

[weimlove]

Sandy,
I found a couple of good sights for freeze dried tripe, one of them is http://www.bellaspainrelief.com/ and the other is http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/ On both of these sites have freeze dried tripe. You can get 5 oz for about $9.00, which isnt too bad. To ship to Fl it is about 13.00 which is ok as well. Until I can find some local tripe, I will probably order some of the freeze dried. I will probably just add a couple of pieces to maybe one meal a day. I’ve found a great butcher for meat, bones, and organs, but I will definintly look for a mexican or asain market. I think theres one in my town, I will just have to look up the address. Yeah, we have one more week left of his Acana kibble food, then we will be transitioning to raw. I cant wait, it will be cheaper plus so much better for my weimaraner. It’s a little confusing/overwhelming at first trying to figure out the ratios and which supplements and veggies to give, but im sure once I get started it will be easy!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lab man –

I’m so sorry to hear about your dog, it’s not fun watching your best friend be in pain. I’m a little confused about your post though – you say she’s old and can’t stand on three legs, but that she doesn’t have hip dysplasia and isn’t in pain? I’m going to assume you made a typo and are looking for a joint supplement, otherwise I’m not really sure what you’re looking for.

For a senior dog experiencing arthritis I would recommend a supplement to maintain and rebuild the joints, a pain reliever and an anti-inflammatory.

I think Wysong has the most well-rounded joint supplements I’ve seen. Their “Joint Complex” has a blend of proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans that will help to maintain joints, cartilage, tendons and connective tissue. Their “Arthegic” has several ingredients designed to moderate inflammation and pain including: boswellia serata, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. I have used both supplements myself and also on occasion for my senior dog. Personally if one of my dogs was experiencing severe arthritis issues I would put it on these two supplements or find other supplements with similar ingredients. Natural anti-inflammatories are a much safer option than steroids and NSAIDS that vets frequently prescribe – imo. They can be purchased here: http://www.wysonghealth.net/nsf-health-supplements.php.

I feel it would also be a good idea to start to give your dog a fish oil capsule every day – the omega 3’s in fish oil have an anti-inflammatory effect and the fish oil is a rich source of dha which senior dogs have difficulty producing.

[TwoDeafBoxers]

Ramona, one of my boys has IBD resulting from severe food allergies as it took over a year to figure out everything he was allergic to. One of the things I eliminated was grain but it took us forever to figure out he was also Gluten intolerant and just because its grain free doesn’t mean it’s gluten free. I’m sure you’re already doing a single protein very limited diet (treats included) but I also found that the Vetri-Science BD supplement helped during the flareups. I make all my dog treats with Buckwheat flour and he getscgets coconut oil added to his food daily. I hope you can find something that works for you soon.

[InkedMarie]

There is a semi local (in state but not around me) breeder of Dogues who also sells raw. Prey model raw people can buy their stuff but she also makes her own pre made. I think you have to just add supplements. I am going to seriously look into this because there is a good chance we will be adopting a sheltie very soon, going to meet two of them tomorrow at the foster home. I’d love to have all on raw but cannot afford to do so with Darwins.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Unfortunately when it comes to shipping frozen raw food, that’s about as cheap as it’s going to get (wish places that sold raw offered free ground shipping!). For where I’m located, it costs me about $28 to have 50 lbs. of food shipped from Hare Today – VERY reasonable in comparison to many other places I’ve checked out (I’ve priced some and had them quote me over $200 to ship 50 lbs.). They key is finding a place to order from that’s close enough where you don’t have to pay for overnight or 2 day shipping – I’m in New York and Hare Today is in Pennsylvania so I can just get ground shipping.

Also, something else I noticed I forgot to mention before that I figure I probably should mention if you’re going to be ordering green tripe (you may already know this, but just in case) – green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 (unlike all other muscle meats and organ meats that are high in phosphorus but have no calcium) so when you feed green tripe you don’t need to add any supplemental calcium, it can be a meal on it’s own.

[Anonymous]

One other side effect of Pepcid AC is that the dog stops throwing up randomly all over your house, too. I love my dogs very, very, very much, which is why I spend well over $100/month on 4.5 to 5 star recommended dog food and treats and chinese herbs and other natural supplements/products and also why I went to the vet as the last resort after trying numerous natural ways for almost two weeks including diet change. She has no side effects and I’m actually weaning her off of them (she is supposed to get 2 a day) after having given them to her for the past 3 days to see if the issue has been resolved. I’m 100% for all natural treatments for my pets, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go the regular vet route so your pet (and sometimes you) can stop suffering. I really wish there was a holistic vet close that I could go to, but since there isn’t and although there are things I don’t like about this vet’s office and her staff, she has been excellent in diagnosing and treating different odd things I’ve brought in, so I do trust her, just not the meds so much that she prescribes. I actually have the Mercola’s digestive enzymes, so why I didn’t think to try that is odd, but my sleep schedule and stress levels have been off the charts lately, so maybe that’s why. I’m going to try it, though, as the next step the vet wanted to do was a thyroid test which costs $80.

[billhill]

I have a question about supplementing dry kibble. I’ve begun to supplement kibble, alternating things such as hardboiled eggs + greenbeans, canned kirkland cuts in gravy, canned unsalted sardines, etc. I understand the point that variation and addition of high quality protein are good. This also makes my puppies happy (2 yr old corgie/lab, 2 yr old beagle/walker hound).

In the 1970’s and 80’s, I learned about the phenomenon of protein “complementarity” in human diets, i.e. protein supplements and combinations from different sources (EXAMPLES: beans and rice in Mexican cuisine, rice and lentils in Indian cuisine). If a specific amino acid is low in one source, it can be balanced out by the proteins in another source. I’m no longer a strict vegetarian, but I can attest from personal experience that this works. I still love vegetarian food.

QUESTION 1: Does this work for dogs? Can adding eggs increase the benefit of other proteins in the doggie bowl?

QUESTION 2: Do dogs have a “preferential” metabolism that burns carbs before proteins? If so has inclusion of carbs been shown to reduce the benefit of proteins in the dogs’ diets?

QUESTION 3: How would I calculate the impact of adding dried egg white or canned sardines to the kibble of each of my roughly 30 lb dogs in terms of additional protein, protein as % weight. Each gets 1 cup of small bites kibble, twice a day.

Looking forward to informed opinions. Thanks.

Bill

[Hound Dog Mom]

The “fermentation” is just a method of creating the probiotics. If you’re supplementing with probiotics you don’t need a kibble with probiotics – I’d personally rather add my supplements separately rather than have then added so I can control the dose and I can pick the high quality supplements I want. If you continue the probiotics and enzymes after your dog is healthy, you certainly could continue to give them daily but I also think giving it a few times a week or daily in half the recommended dose would be fine for a healthy dog.

Happy new year to you too! And thanks, the dog in my picture is Gertie my 2 year old. 🙂

[crazy4cats]

Hi Hound Dog Mom-
Thanks again for your help. By the way, your dog is so cute with his hat on:) I will check in to suggested probiotics. I chose that one because it had all 3 in one. When feeding separately, I felt like I was giving more supplements than food! I’m glad you have heard of using DGL for dogs. I had never even heard of it, let alone for dogs. My next question is, if going to be giving probiotics long term, is it necessary to choose kibble that includes it? Also some kibble show fermented probiotics. Is this a better form of probiotics? Happy New Year!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yeah, you always want to use vitamin e. You can continue the same fish oil or switch it up, it’s not a huge deal if you don’t switch but I do like to rotate my dogs’ fats as well. I generally alternate between sardine oil, anchovy oil and salmon oil (I’m thinking about trying krill oil when I’m out of the fish oil I have now) and I also give cod liver oil every other day. I add a plant-based fatty acid daily too, three days a week I give coconut oil and the other three I give a flax, borage and evening primrose blend. Just mixing kelp and alfalfa would be fine – if you have to give any trace nutrient supplement I would say those two would be your best bet. You can order both in powder form from starwest botanicals. I make my own whole food supplement and while I do rotate out certain ingredients and rotate in new ingredients every month or so I always keep kelp and alfalfa in the supplement.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yeah, definitely. Vitamin e, fish oil, Pet Kelp and the Flea Free all contain different ingredients with different purposed and would be safe to use together. Then once you’re done the bag of Pet Kelp pick out a new supplement next time.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

Long term supplementation with probiotics and enzymes is very safe and healthy, in fact many posters here supplement their healthy dogs’ diet with probiotics and enzymes. My dogs get 1/2 c. kefir every other day and green tripe almost daily (loaded with naturally occurring probiotics and enzymes). The Vetri Probiotic BD looks okay but it only has 3 strains of probiotics – I’d personally look for something with more strains. NWC Natural’s makes a digestive supplement for dogs called Total Biotics with 14 strains of probiotics, prebiotics and enzymes. Mercola also sells a good probiotic supplement with 14 strains and Garden of Life Primal Defense has 12 strains. A dog’s natural diet (raw prey) would naturally contain probiotics and enzymes so when feeding a processed kibble diet it’s good to add supplemental enzymes and probiotics. DGL is deglycyrrhizinated licorice and is often used by holistic vets to help heal the lining of the digestive tract. I’d assume this would only be need while your dog is healing and wouldn’t be supplemented long term, but you can talk to your vet about it.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

Supplementing with pre and probiotics long term is fine and actually very healthy. Many posters here supplement with probiotics daily or at least a few times a week for their healthy dogs. My dogs get 1/3 c. kefir every other day and raw green tripe almost daily (both are loaded with naturally occuring probiotics). DGL (deglycyrrhizinated licorice) is often prescribed by holistic vets and is used to help heal the lining of the digestive tract. DGL is probably something you’d just want to use while your dog is healing and not something you’d continue long term, talk to your vet though. The Vetri-Probiotic BD looks okay, but it only contains 3 strains of probiotics – you could do better imo. I’d check out Total Biotics is has 14 strains of probiotics plus enzymes and prebiotics, Mercola’s has a 14 strain probiotic and they also sell a separate enzyme supplement (http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html) and Garden of Life Primal Defense has 12 strains (http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products-for-Life/Digestive-Health/Primal-Defense.aspx).

[crazy4cats]

Hi All-
My dogs (lab/retriever mix) have been off and on antibiotics for the last year due to arriving with giardia. I had never even heard of it before. My first vet explained they would be carriers and never totally get rid of it after 3 treatments. After their next episode of green diarrhea, I went to new vet and he said that wasn’t true and we tried a stronger treatment of metronidazole and dewormer. He also suggested pre/probiotics, digestive enzymes and DGL. I was happy that he was trying something new. We have had 2 negative fecal tests so far. What a relief! He also recommended food change. I was using Kirkland. He liked raw best and suggested blue or nature’s variety. Wow! A vet that didn’t recommend science diet. So, anyway doing all of the above now. We have had a huge improvement in stools. Not perfect yet, but much better. I’m guessing after reading this website, it could take 6 months to totally recover from all the antibiotics they have taken and having parasites in their guts. My question is; is it safe to use these supplements long term? Will they become dependent on them? Also, wondering if anyone has heard of using DGL for dogs? Im using Vetri-probiotic BD right now. It has pre/pro and enzymes in it. I’m not sure about long term use.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I’ve seen the Pet Kelp supplements and they look like good supplements, however you definitely still need to add vitamin e. If you look at the nutrient analysis of the Pet Kelp product there is only 1.65 i.u. vitamin e per tablespoon. The AAFCO minimum requirement for vitamin e is 50 i.u. per kilogram of food and ideally your dog should be getting between 100 and 300 i.u. per day. I split 800 i.u. between my 3 dogs daily, so they all get about 266 i.u. each per day. The other thing to keep in mind is that you will be supplementing with fish oil (high levels of omega 3’s) and vitamin e is used to metabolize omega 3’s, so if you don’t supplement with high levels of vitamin e while supplementing with omega 3 rich fish oil the body’s stores of vitamin e will eventually be depleted and the dog will develop a vitamin e deficiency. If you decide to go with the Pet Kelp supplement I would recommend picking out 1 or 2 other whole food supplements with ingredients other than kelp (some that I like are Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier, Welly Tails Might Phytonutrients, Animal Essentials Organic Green Alternative, Aunt Jeni’s Enhance, etc.) and rotating to a new supplement every month or so, this way your dog can get some variety. I don’t believe flax is bad for healthy dogs, I occasionally give my dogs flax oil. There are positives and negatives to almost every food out there which is why rotating is key – if you rotate your dog is a lot less likely to suffer the negative consequences of any one ingredient because he won’t be exposed for long periods of time.

[theBCnut]

I can just throw in a pill and mine will eat it, but one of my whole food supplements also has alfalfa in it. I actually have horses too, so sometimes it’s a handful of alfalfa in the blender with other things as part of my homemade supplement. And at one point I was giving the dogs a horse joint supplement that is sprayed on alfalfa pellets.

[weimlove]

Sandy- thanks for posting that link, they have a lot of great supplements to add.

[pugmomsandy]

This one is flax free. I’m not sure how long it will be available since they have introduced a combo/al-in-one product greens/prb\ob/enzyme supplement.

Natural Dog Supplements & Vitamins

[theBCnut]

I use a whole food vitamin supplement that has flax in it, but I rotate that too, so I’m not using it all the time. I use kelp sometimes, alfalfa others, and right now it’s spirulina, so I rotate that too. I think it’s safe to say I rotate everything, except my vinegar.

[weimlove]

The other day, I found a product called PetKelp. It’s ingrdients are kelp, flax, and blueberries. It says it can be used for a supplement with food to ensure all needed vitamins and minerals. I know I will still need to add some source of fish oil, but do you think if I used the petkelp that I would need to still add vitamin E and alfalfa? Here is the website of the PetKelp wellness formula:
http://www.petkelp.com/antioxidant.html
If anyone could look at the ingredients and let me hear your opinions I would greatly appreciate it!

[oceandog]

Ok, I think I get it now. Of the proteins on those sites, I believe I can find Rabbit and fish treats, so they would be the best protein sources to choose, so he has treats too. Then after the trial of 2-3 months, add 1 and only 1 ingredient at a time and monitor.

I will look into the probiotic supplements as well. I did read the thread about detoxifying and I do understand the difficulties. I have celiac disease and am intolerant of dairy. So I have experienced the extreme discomfort these things cause. I avoid processed foods or pay the price. Short story.

As far as vaccines, I had Addisons dogs prior to Brody, so I didn’t vaccinate like most do. I do not plan on yearly vaccinations for Brody either. He has had his puppy shots and that is that. I suppose since he had had 1 shot already when I got him that could explain the chewing on his legs and feet.

For now, I will get in an order of rabbit or fish (so I can find treats) and give it some time and see what happens over the next few months. I do know my local pet store has some crunchy fish skin treats that he loves, so that maybe a good direction. Thank you again, I will keep updated with his progress.

He means the world to me, I lost my mother from cancer in July and 12 days later my Boston, Bosco. So Brody has literally put life in my life again. I want more than the best for him. His food budget is greater than my own!

[Hound Dog Mom]

I don’t think it matters which protein you choose, just go with one he’s never eaten before. You can give treats, but it should be simple single ingredient with just the protein you’re feeding him. So say you go with goat, any treat you feed should be just goat nothing else. Just during the period of time that you’re trying to figure out what his food-triggers are (if there are any). If you’re feeding, say, a raw diet with goat and starting giving a biscuit that has chicken and carrot and sweet potato and peas then he has a reaction, you would have no way of knowing if the reaction was caused by the goat, the chicken, the carrots, the sweet potato or the peas – you know what I mean? So during the ingredient trial period simple is best. Once you get past the 2-3 month period and start re-introducing other foods and figure out which (if any) ingredients are triggering his actions you can buy treats with safe ingredients – but before you can do that you need to figure out which ingredients are safe. And as, as I said in my previous comments, I would strongly encourage a high quality pro-biotic supplement (Mercola’s and Garden of Life’s Primal Defense are two of the best) because, like Toxed just pointed out, a healthy gut is the foundation of immune health.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

That’s great that you still feed your dog a meat based diet and are willing to feed raw even though you’re vegan, it must be tough to do! 🙂 While I completely respect vegetarians and vegans, I see too many that try to force their lifestyle on their dogs and cats and I personally don’t think it’s fair…

Hare-Today.com and Mypetcarnivore.com sell pre-ground mixes with muscle meat, bone and organs in the correct proportions – so you wouldn’t need to chop up any meat or anything, it comes looking just like a pre-made raw (it just doesn’t have the supplements or veggies). They have several novel protein sources. Hare Today sells goat, goose, llama, pheasant and quail and My Pet Carnivore sells alpaca, goat, muskrat and rabbit. I’d just recommend adding the supplements I listed in my previous post – vitamin e (a capsule for humans a couple times a week), fish oil (for omega 3’s), kelp & alfalfa (trace nutrients) and probiotics (to help strengthen his gut). I’d leave out any other ingredients and just keep it basic during the elimination trial so when you start re-introducing ingredients you can know what the issue is. Only feed one protein source and don’t give any treats.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

When you fed raw did you use a novel protein source? Honestly, if he was experiencing these issues on a grain-free raw diet with a novel protein source, I would be inclined to think it’s more likely to be a compulsive behavior or something in the environment. Since raw is not an issue for you, rather than messing around with kibble I’d put him right on a raw diet. I’d personally go with a grind from hare-today.com or mypetcarnivore.com (the grinds contain muscle meat, organ meat, bone and nothing else) – pick one with a protein he’s never eaten before (they’ve got some pretty novel proteins like goat, duck, quail, rabbit, etc.). I’d feed him the grind with a vitamin e supplement, fish oil, kelp/alfalfa blend and a high quality multi-strain probiotic with nothing else for 2-3 months (no treats either!). After 2-3 months, assuming the issues have cleared, gradually start introducing new protein sources and other food items such as vegetables, fruits and eggs. Introduce each item one at a time and closely monitor his reaction. Keep a journal or something noting which foods cause reactions and which don’t. After you figure out which foods trigger his reaction you can start looking into pre-made raw foods (if you wish or you can keep making your own) that don’t contain any of his allergy triggers. If something like this doesn’t work, then I highly doubt his issues are food related.

[Hound Dog Mom]

For a healthy dog eating raw or dehydrated foods which still have natural enzymes, I personally don’t think enzymes are necessary (they definitely aren’t going to hurt and if you have the extra money go for it, but I don’t think it’s a necessary expense). For a healthy dog eating quality kibble, I’d probably give half the recommended dose of an enzyme supplement. I think all dogs can benefit from probiotics, but unless the dog is having serious digestion issues I think some plain yogurt or (better yet) kefir or raw green tripe is enough to help keep the gut flora in balance. My dogs eat all raw and get green tripe nearly every day and about 1/3 c. kefir (the kefir I use has 12 strains of probiotics) every other day. I don’t add any supplemental enzymes or probiotics. When Gus was eating kibble I did give him 1/2 the recommended dose of Flying Bassett’s digestive enzymes daily and some plain yogurt or kefir a few times a week, but I quit giving this when I switched to THK and raw. I do like the medizym supplement Sandy posted a link to – GREAT for arthritis.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you truly believe his issues are food-related (keep in mind that while it’s definitely possible his issues are food related, it could also be something environmental or behavioral), I’d recommend doing a food allergy elimination trial. Identify the primary protein and carbohydrate source in the foods that have caused the issues and pick a new food that doesn’t contain these protein sources or carbohydrate sources. I’d also go with a high protein/low carbohydrate food and supplement with probiotics and enzymes as this will strengthen the dog’s gut, help to begin the detoxification process and allow for less opportunity for inflammation. I know Dr. Karen Becker recommends her patients keep their dogs that are experiencing food allergies on a hypoallergenic diet like this for three months. After the three month period, reintroduce other protein sources and carbohydrate sources slowly and monitor your dog’s reaction to find out which items cause issues and which don’t. Try to find at least two or three other foods with different protein/carbohydrate sources that you can rotate your dog to every few months to help prevent the development of other allergies later down the road. If it’s something your open to, a lot of dogs with severe food allergies thrive on raw diets. The food is less processed and easier on the digestion system and it’s much easier to tailor a homemade diet to your dog’s needs. Check out healthypets.mercola.com – this is Dr. Karen Becker’s website, she’s a holistic vet and has a lot of good articles. I’m sure others will chime in with more advice. Good luck!