When I give human supplements to my dogs I just open the capsule and mix it with the food. I base the serving size off a 100 lb. person. So for example I’d give a 25 lb. dog 1/4 the recommended human dose, a 50 lb. dog 1/2 the recommended human dose, a 75 lb. 3/4 the recommended human dose and a dog >100 lbs. the full human dose. There really is no risk of “overdosing” with probiotics so you don’t need to stress too much about getting the dose exactly right.
Hi Marie –
She should probably be getting two capsules – that was my mistake. When I had recommended the product before I was going off the information on Swanson’s website which says the serving size is three capsules. In small print under the label it says that the three capsule serving is meant to be taken twice a day – so the total daily serving is six capsules. I’m not sure if this would make a difference, but it may. I’d say try doing a loading dose again (2 caps in the a.m. – 2 in the p.m.) for a week then reduce it down to a maintenance dose (1 cap in the a.m. and 1 cap in the p.m.). If this still doesn’t yield any results then definitely look into other supplements. Most joint supplements (like glucosamine, chondroitin, etc.) aren’t problematic when taken in excess, however because this supplement contains several herbal ingredients I would stick to basing the daily dosage on her weight and I would also take two days off per week after the initial loading period.
So what are the actual directions for it? Say for instance if a 90 lbs adult could take 6, then a 30 lbs dog should be fine taking 2. I only know a couple 90 lbs adults, but they do exist.
I don’t know what exactly is in the one you have, but I’m having a hard time thinking of anything that would be in a joint supplement that would be a problem unless it has a large amount of tumeric in it. Some of them can affect cholesterol levels, but that shouldn’t be a problem for her.
Is there anything in it that could be a problem if you gave too much? If not, I would try giving her 2 anyway. Many joint supplements have a “dosage may be doubled” statement.
Hi acs379 –
Nope, there’s nothing specific about excess fat that will cause developmental issues. Many veterinarians and breeders just tend to recommend lower fat foods because they generally have a lower calorie count per cup and they feel that it will be less likely that the dog will consume too many calories. However, as long as portion sizes are controlled it doesn’t pose an issue. My experience with my hounds has actually been that I have difficulty keeping weight on them – they tend to be on the thin side if anything, so for me it’s been really important to use more calorie-dense foods.
First off I would like to say that it is wonderful that your breeder is recommending the inclusion of fresh foods. Many breeders and veterinarians don’t recognize the importance of fresh foods. Fresh meat, plain yogurt and eggs are wonderful additions to dry kibble – they boost the protein levels and the species appropriateness. Adding eggs and boneless meat will also help to reduce the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the food as they’re high in phosphorus but low in calcium. Just be sure to keep the unbalanced extras to approximately 20% or less of the meal or you could skew the calcium to phosphorus ratio too much and potentially throw off the balance of the other nutrients in the food. Canned foods and dehydrated foods make great toppers too, if feeding a balanced canned or dehydrated food with appropriate calcium levels you can add as much as you want, if feeding a food with higher calcium levels or an unbalanced canned topper follow the 20% rule. Tripe makes an excellent topper – especially for large and giant breed puppies, the reason being that tripe has has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but very low concentrations of both minerals (only about 0.3% if I recall correctly). So feeding tripe will dilute the overall calcium levels without the risk of throwing of the c:p ratio. When Gertie was a pup she ate THK and I generally fed her 4 C. THK + 1 can Tripett (canned green tripe) daily (and some fresh additions like eggs, plain yogurt and tinned sardines a few times a week). Mabel started right off on raw and ate raw green tripe as about 25% of her diet for the first 6 months to keep her calcium levels low. Another benefit to tripe (if you can get it raw) is that it’s loaded with probiotics and digestive enzymes.
I generally recommend not supplementing with vitamins (unless per veterinarian recommendation) for those feeding a balanced commercial food, however vitamin c and vitamin b are water soluble vitamins so they are not harmful in excess, if you wanted to add them it shouldn’t cause any problems. The problems arise with certain minerals and fat soluble vitamins as these can be harmful when consumed in excess. Because balanced commercial foods already contain vitamins and minerals adding additional vitamins (fat soluble) and certain minerals could potentially result in toxicity. I would definitely not supplement with vitamin d or calcium – vitamin d is a fat soluble vitamin and adding calcium would likely throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and high levels of calcium are what need to be avoided for large and giant breed puppies.
Now onto discussing the Science Diet Adult Maintenance recommendation. I see many breeders recommend putting large breed puppies directly onto an adult maintenance food and this is extremely poor advice (imo) and often based on faulty logic. The reason breeders typically recommend adult foods is because adult foods tend to be lower in fat and calories than puppy foods – from the previous discussion we know that this isn’t an issue as long as portions are controlled. Feeding a puppy a food designated for adult maintenance puts the puppy at risk of not getting enough fat, protein or certain vitamins and minerals. SD is extremely low in protein – to be honest I wouldn’t even feel comfortable feeding a food that low in protein to an adult dog, let alone a growing puppy. I don’t ever recommend feeding foods with less than 30% protein (for adults or puppies) and the SD only has 24.5% protein. Also, if you go to SD’s website and read the product description for the adult maintenance food you’ll notice they state “Not recommended for puppies, pregnant or lactating dogs” – this is because dogs in their growth phase or in the stressful phase of pregnancy or lactation need high levels of protein, higher levels of fat and higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals. I personally wouldn’t ever feed or recommend any Science Diet Products. I would recommend checking out some 4 or 5 star foods with appropriate calcium levels. It’s also better if you rotate foods, don’t stick with just one – dogs need variety. I’d say at a bare minimum have three go to brands (preferably made by different companies and with different protein sources) and rotate through them. Rotational feeding has benefits including fostering a diverse population of gut flora, mitigating the short comings of feeding any one single food (no food is perfect) and providing alternatives in the event of a recall or formula change.
Hi weimlove –
You’ll have to check to see the concentration of the vitamin e supplement you have – different liquid supplements have different concentrations. It should tell you how many IUs per drop. I’d say 100 IU per lb. would be fine.
As long as you’re feeding a fatty fish (like sardine or salmon) a few times a week you shouldn’t need to worry about Omega 3’s or Vitamin D. I would just suggest kelp and alfalfa (like I did with the raw) – or some other “superfoods” (wheat grass, spirulina, etc.). I would feed at least one egg per one. I would also suggest occasionally adding items like tinned oysters, nuts and seeds to provide important trace nutrients (this doesn’t need to be done daily, but once in awhile). As long as you’re balancing the c:p ratio, feeding a variety of protein sources, feeding 10% organ meat, adding vitamin e, omega 3’s (fatty fish, cage free eggs or fish oil) and adding a whole food supplement everything should balance over time. Variety is key.
Congrats on the new pup! I would certainly say it would be fine to start the new pup on homemade. I started Mabel right up on homemade raw when she came home.
Hound Dog Mom, thank you for being so thorough in your answer! It clears things up quite a bit; the article discussed briefly that the fat percentage should be at a lower level but did not go into specifics as for the health implications of excess fat. I just wanted to confirm that there was nothing about excess fat SPECIFICALLY that would cause health issues (i.e. like excess calcium). I’m thinking I can start with Nature’s Variety Instinct and Orijen, because they both have good nutritional stats, good ingredients from what I understand, and seem to be used with success by other owners who have posted. If you have any other suggestions for foods, please let me know! I was planning on supplementing with fresh food (i.e. hardboiled eggs, yogurt) and canned food (i.e. tripe) as well as digestive enzymes to help aid in the digestion of the dry food.
I do have a few follow-up questions. Here’s my situation: I’m getting a German Shepherd puppy in a few weeks (yay!). It’s coming from a well-known breeder, who made some nutritional suggestions based on years of experience with multiple vets. They suggest, “Puppies from 8 weeks to 1 year should be fed Science Diet Maintenance, fresh meat, yogurt, and boiled eggs.” However, Science Diet Maintenance has extremely LOW ratings on this site, as well as negative reviews from other posters on this site. This really concerns me, and I’m curious as to why they would make that particular suggestion.
In addition, they make suggestions for vitamins as well: 1,000 mg Vitamin C a day and a multi-vitamin and a B complex capsule once a day. In the research I did, the only supplements mentioned were calcium and Vitamin D. Do you see any issue with giving the suggested 3 vitamins?
Thanks so much for your help! You’ve provided so much valuable information and have also had to guide further research for me.
Hi Marie –
Sorry to hear the supplements aren’t working for Gemma. I’ve heard very mixed things about Chinese herbs – they seem to be hit or miss. I’m surprised the Swanson Mobility Essenials isn’t helping at all though. To make sure – are you basing her daily serving on the human dose of 6 caps per day (feeding her a percentage of that)? On the bottle it says serving size 3 caps but then recommends it twice a day (total of 6 caps per day) so I just wanted to make sure you weren’t accidentally basing her serving off 3 caps per day.
In some cases it’s just trial and error – you need to try things until you find something that works. I just started Gus on an esterified fatty acid supplement (NOW Foods Celadrin + MSM) and I know Sandy has said she has some of her seniors on one as well (I forget which brand she said she uses). So something like that would be worth trying. Have you tried enzyme supplements like Wobezyme? Other supplements I’ve heard good things about that could be worth a shot: duralactin, phycox, reservatrol, liquid hylaluronic acid and SOD.
Hi weimlove –
Any raw recipe can easily be converted to a cooked recipe. The raw feeding model, as you know, is 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat, 10% bone – to convert to cooked you would omit the bone, increase the muscle meat portion to 90% and supplement with 800 – 1,000 mg. calcium per pound of meat fed. Any human calcium supplement would work. On the days I feed boneless meals I use Swanson’s calcium citrate powder. Ground eggshells work too – 1 tsp. ground eggshell has about 800 – 1,000 mg. calcium.
I hope the cooked food works out better for Shadow than the raw did 🙂
Thanks guys for the info! So, if I feed Orijen grain free supplemented with Blue Ridge Beef raw, which has ground green tripe in the natural mix and add plain yogurt to that, do you think that will be a good diet? Or should I supplement with more?
dogaware(dot)com has recipes and supplement guidelines. HDM posted a chicken and rice recipe in the raw dog food menus but you could cook it. Sorry it didn’t work out.
You’re welcome! Also, HDM gave me a list of joint supplements with ingredients to help with inflammation; the one I chose was Joint Mobility plus from Swanson Vitamins.
Hi cinner00 –
You’re definitely not bugging me, I don’t mind questions. 🙂
1) If he’s not on a grain-free food I would definitely go that route as grains are inflammatory – something you really want to avoid with arthritic dogs.
2) It will be very important to keep his weight down – being a healthy weight is probably one of the most important things for arthritic dogs. Any extra pounds are just extra stress on the joints. So I would definitely focus on getting him to a healthy weight (on the thin side is best). Unfortunately, like people, there’s really no easy way to get the pounds off. It’s calories in and calories out – the dog needs to burn more calories than it’s eating in order to lose weight. A deficit of about 3,500 kcal. equates to one pound. If he’s inactive it will be important to get him moving – this will not only help him to burn calories but it will also help to lubricate the joints and make him feel better. Start small and keep the activity low impact (i.e. leashed walking, swimming, etc.). Frequent activities of short duration are better than longer activities. I’m not sure exactly how active he his but something like 3 short (10-15) minute walks per day would probably make a big difference.
3) Glucosamine is great to help slow deterioration of the joint cartilage. However if he’s already arthritic he may benefit from some anti-inflammatory supplements as well. Some good options are turmeric (or curcumin), yucca, boswellia, bromelain or tart cherry. High doses of omega 3’s (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs. of body weight) have an anti-inflammatory affect as well. I’ve also heard great things about esterified fatty acids (such as cetyl myristoleate). I recently started my senior on NOW Foods Celadrin & MSM which contains an esterified fatty acid complex with added MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane is a natural source of biologically active sulfur that helps maintain the structure of connective tissue).
4) You may also want to check out what are called “PROM (Passive Range of Motion) Exercises.” There are some great videos on You Tube demonstrating how to do PROM exercises with dogs. They help to maintain flexibility in the joints.
Good luck!
I would react just like I did when my 2 got Pancreatitis and bad bacteria when on Darwin’s I immediately get them to the Vet. The food Company would not help after your pet gets sick….Honestly they do not care and feel like you are just blamming them and or their food so they blow you off. I can almost instantly read it in their voice. Yes I agree Customer service is important but it is certainly not there anymore these days from my experience. I am still trying to find the perfect Raw for my dogs that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg to ship. I can get Vital Essentials and Primal and Natures Instinct but my problem with the Primal and Natures Instinct is the veggies and fruits they put in them. My dogs are doing good on the Rabbit from Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore but the $45 shipping is killing me. What if I feed Raw low fat meats just from the grocery and add in Steve’s mix? I just don’t want to do all kibble since I have not seen a huge improvement on it. It seems like I am fighting a never ending battle with my dogs are their diet these days. I am beginning to think it has nothing to do with food but the way man has bred dogs for the last years, The DNA code has been terribly messed up. I know dogs to this day that are fed Pedigree and thrive and have no health issues…I won’t feed cheap/grain food to my dogs and try to feed the best I can but it seriously back fires on me. I am to the point of buying my own meat and cooking the snot out of it and adding in supplements and maybe then I won’t have problems. Sorry just venting. I honestly do not know which way to turn in the food direction.
Hi everyone! Most of you know that I was feeding shadow a raw diet. After having a bout of pancreatitis, I have switched back to a high quality kibble because I got so freaked out. I don’t plan on going back to raw, but I am very interested in making a home cooked diet for him. I plan on this diet being grain free as well. I need some information about what supplements he would need. Especially calcium since he will not be consuming cooked bones. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Thanks for your input. I know a lot of people say yeast smells like corn chips. I looked into the flea dermatitis online and I’m thinking it could be that more so than yeast now. Especially since my American Bulldog is showing the same signs and he has never (knock on wood) had allergies to any food, even when I ignorantly fed them Purina. I didn’t put them on any flea medications because I couldn’t afford what I used to use (Trifexis) and I guess maybe the fleas were left to bother them too long and it caused a reaction. They never had fleas until primarily outside dogs came to live at my house for a few months and I think they got fleas from them. I’m just afraid if I go to the vet she will want to put at least my Saint on some kind of medication, plus having to pay a fee just to have them looked at. I know that sounds horrible, but any chance I can avoid a trip to the vet I will do it lol. I figured that by at least supplementing their kibble with raw will be enough to clear up the issues they have.
Star right, since your dog had HD, getting any extra weight off her is very important. Help her lose the weight and get her a joint supplement (the one I mentioned wa recommended by HDM)
Starbright:
My Quinn (lab/vizsla) was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at 1 year old. I switched her food to grain-free after discovering that, along with a higher protein. She needed to build muscle as she was favoring one side. She has hip dysplasia in both hips.
In terms of supplements, I can tell you what we’ve done that has made a phenomenal difference. She just turned two and there’s no way in the world I’d have thought she would be at this point. We were pretty certain she was going to need surgery (her range of motion was OK — but we just thought surgery would be more immediate than in the distant future).
As HDM suggests, a great diet with anti-inflammatory supplements was suggested to us by Iowa State University. Since being recommended, we’ve had her on Nutramax Cosequin DS Double-Strength Chewable Tablets. According to Iowa State, this is the only brand to be clinically proven. You will give her two a day for a month and one a day from then on (directions are on the bottle). Coupled with this, we also immediately started her on one tablet of fish oil per day — 1,000MG (but you may have to feed less/more — consult vet).
The diet change and supplements helped, but targeted exercise has made the difference, as well. Take your dog swimming. If she doesn’t like to swim, teach her to love it by way of rewards/playing. Swimming is the best for joint issues. Other options provided to us were walking in tall grass (makes her lift her legs all the way as opposed to close together/hopping), walking on a blown up air mattress (good for winter exercise), and frequent walks (as opposed to a long walk — more frequent is better).
Also — obviously weight. She’s a slim 43 pounds at the moment, but she did get to 50 pounds in the winter and my vet noticed it. Slim is always, always better — and I’ve had people say she’s too thin (mostly because I don’t think most people are accustomed to seeing healthy dogs — harsh, but true… I think a lot of dogs are overweight).
If you have any questions, let me know. I really enjoy talking about this subject because I couldn’t find enough information when this happened to us. It’s our personal experience, but Quinn is now running full-speed and playing for hours and hours daily. A definite turnaround.
Good luck. 🙂
Definitely – a quality 4 or 5 star food with supplements would be the way to go. I’d personally go grain-free if possible as grains are inflammatory. I don’t really have any particular favorites – when I fed kibble I switched brands after every bag. Good luck!
Chicken feet is a staple at ethnic grocery stores. They usually have pig feet too. Getting a human supplement might be cheaper per dose for joint supplements. You can also buy bulk green lipped mussel. I get Jarrow True CMO from swansonvitamins(dot)com and also use Actiflex 4000. I get the horse version because I don’t like the beef flavor in the dog version and give a very small amount. This is from folks in my local raw feeding group:
Under 25 pounds:
½ tsp. daily loading dose for 5 days
¼ tsp. daily maintenance dose
>
25-50 pounds
1 tsp. daily loading dose for 5 days
½ tsp. daily maintenance dose
>
50-75 pounds:
1 ½ tsp. daily loading dose for 5 days
¾ tsp. daily maintenance dose
>
100 pounds
2 tsp. daily loading dose for 5 days
1 tsp. daily maintenance dose
Hi starbright –
Unfortunately if your dog has hip dysplasia she has hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a chronic degenerative condition and is not reversible. The condition will progress as she ages, although its difficult to predict the extend to which it will affect her as many factors are at play (degree of pain tolerance, size and weight of the dog, etc.). For some dogs hip dysplasia is crippling and for others it may never cause more than a mild stiffness with age. Anti-inflammatory supplements (tart cherry, omega 3’s, boswellia, turmeric, etc.) will certainly help manage pain and supplements such as glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM/hylaluronic acid (or whole foods containing these items) may help slow the joint deterioration to a certain degree – but they certainly won’t stop it. It will also be critical to keep her lean and active (low impact activities). Being that she’s over a year old calcium levels won’t affect anything at this point.
Starbright,
Thank you for adopting your girl. I hope she continues to blossom. My go-to food when a dog needs to lose weight is Wellness Core reduced fat, feeding her the amount of food for what she *should* weigh. A good joint supplement is needed; I use Joint Mobility plus from Swanson Vitamins. It’s human, fine for dogs. Also, salmon oil. I prefer just salmon oil, nothing else; I get mine from Vital Choice,
Good luck!
Hello,
I am looking for advice for my friend’s dog. He has a one and a half year old male German Sheppard name Ranger. Ranger was on Acana Large Puppy Breed when he was younger then moved on Acana Large Breed Adult. My friend noticed Rangers breath was really bad so when he went in for his yearly exam so the vet did a urine test. They found that Ranger has Triple phosphates and 10-50 HPF.
I am not sure what that means but they moved him to Canadia dog food with cranberry juice in his water. He has been on Canidae dog food for the past 10 days and there is no improvement on his breath. He went in to get a B12 test and he was advised to wait 30 days to do a test for Phosphate levels.
Any advice on supplements, food or course of action would be really appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
-
This topic was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
Angie.
Here is my story: I currently feed ACANA and I rotate between the different varieties and all 3 of my dogs have done wonderfully on it. But after a rare bout with fleas my Saint Bernard has terrible yeasty skin with a horrid smell and my American Bulldog is starting to show signs of what I believe to be yeast issues, too. I have no idea if the fleas caused this or if it is just a coincidence, but I want to fix it soon. From my research I know raw is the way to go for the issues my dogs are facing and just plain better for them period. I am a full time college student with one more year of school, so feeding a homemade raw diet is not possible right now, but that is my goal one day. Anyway, I was thinking of feeding 50/50 raw and kibble. I wanted to feed Tucker’s Frozen Raw in the a.m. and kibble in the p.m.. I will probably switch my dogs to Orijen kibble because I know that white potato and sweet potato will feed yeast and Orijen does not contain those ingredients while ACANA does. I also will be feeding raw meaty bones once in a while. If I feed the 50/50 split will it still be beneficial to add a supplement like Nupro Silver? The people who owned my Saint before I got her did not feed her correctly as a growing pup (39 pounds underweight when I got her at 2 years old and was fed Iams), so since she has hip issues supplementing with glucosamine is something I really want to do and I figured the other natural ingredients in Nupro Silver wouldn’t hurt. If there are other supplements out there that are better please let me know. Just from my research the Nupro will be cheaper for me to give than the NuVet supplements I am giving currently. I also know that feeding duck feet is a natural source of glucosamine and I will be giving her some of those every now and then. I am just wondering if this plan sounds like a good idea or if it is stupid. I really don’t know a whole lot about raw, but I want to learn more. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Chicken and turkey necks have a lot of cartilage in them and have helped my 11 year old JRT more than joint supplements did.
My comment on DinoVite: do not purchase this supplement without speaking with your vet first. My dog has had skin problems for the past few years, and my vet treats her with prednisone and other allergy medications. I feed her very high quality food. My husband heard Dinovite advertised on the radio and we decided to try it. After 2 days of giving her the supplement according to the instructions on the box, she had a horrible allergic reaction. Her eyes swelled up and she developed hives all over her body. She vomited repeatedly. We had to treat her with Benadryl and Prednisone to control the inflammation. The company is refunding my money, but none of my shipping charges. Not only do I have to pay to ship the product back to them for my refund, but they won’t credit my original shipping charges. The representative on the phone expressed no concern about my situation. I would never purchase from this company again.
Hi Amawil05 –
Going grain-free would be a smart idea – grains are inflammatory (something you really want to avoid when dealing with arthritic dogs). I’m assuming that by “Nature’s Instinct” you’re referring to Nature’s Variety Instinct. I would go with Nature’s Variety Instinct over Taste of the Wild. Nature’s Variety Instinct is manufactured by a reputable company, Taste of the Wild is manufactured by Diamond, a company known for producing low quality products and having frequent recalls. If you aren’t already giving joint support supplements, I would start a natural supplement regimen as well. Glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM and hyaluronic acid are all great for maintaining the joints; you can buy these supplements individually or in whole food form – some whole foods that contain some of these components and that are known for promoting joint health are green lipped mussel, sea cucumber, velvet antler, shark cartilage and eggshell membrane. There are also numerous natural supplements you can give that have anti-inflammatory properties – omega 3’s (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.), turmeric, boswellia, yucca, bromelain and tart cherry.
Hello! I’m so very sorry to hear about the health issues your babies are experiencing. I am an independent field rep for Life’s Abundance. We offer an outstanding food + supplement program that may be exactly what you are looking for. Our veterinarian formulated Healthy & Holistic dry or wet foods along with our Agility Supplement will get your babies feeling better & back to optimal health.
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At present, there are several hip and joint formulas marketed for companion animals. Unfortunately, most of these products treat the joint as an isolated goal; it is for this reason that they do not work as well as they could. Our Agility Supplement is a holistic formula, which means that it takes into account the needs of the whole body, including all the parts that work with the joints.
This formula helps maintain healthy joint cartilage and connective tissue, and to aid in the production of healthy synovial fluid, which lubricates the joints. Learn more about our Agility Supplement as well as Life’s Abundance Premium Health Foods here: http://tinyurl.com/LAagility
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I used the USDA nutrient database and Self Nutrition Data – a few of the ingredients I couldn’t find on these databases (like some of the supplements) and had to do a bit of digging on the internet to find an analysis. Then I just converted everything to a dry matter basis and weighted all the nutrients based on the amount of the ingredient in the recipe. Very tedious and time consuming. If you can find any free software for analyzing recipes let me know!
Wrigley is a 6 month old yellow labrador and he is our baby!! After 6 months of taking the little guy to a “traditional” Vet for his stomach issues (we got him at 7 weeks old and he had coccidia from the breeder), we were tired of the constant prescription of steroids, antibiotics and pro-biotics. This little guy has been on some sort of medication since birth. I was fed up with this approach and took him to a holistic vet. She said that his internal terrain was compromised from all the meds, and recommended a RAW diet immediately (along with four supplements- two to aide with the transition). We did a cold turkey switch from his Canidae Grain Free Lamb and Bison to Natures Variety Beef RAW patties. Along with his supplements and a homemade “veggie mash” (spinach, goji berries, cucumbers, carrots and celery) Wrigley loved his new food for the first two days. Now at day three, he won’t eat anything and has been waking up at 4am vomiting a mucus-like bile. I’m reading online that dogs can experience detox symptoms when switching to raw food, especially dogs who have been on steroids or antibiotics (like Wrigley). But he’s never missed a meal and I’m worried about him. My husband wants to take him to the traditional vet, but we know he’ll just go back to antibiotics and want to put him back on dry kibble. After researching RAW diets, I really believe in the nutritional value and have already seen an improvement in my dogs bowls. Has anyone had any experience with “detox” symptoms like this? I’ve been up since 4am with our puppy and crying hysterically! Feeding him brown rice and chicken broth now, hoping he can keep that down.
It’s really hard for anyone to tell you what will or won’t work – all dogs are different and do well on different foods. A limited ingredient food with a novel protein may be worth a try, but no guarantee there either. Do you know if they have sensitivities to any particular ingredients? Have you tried supplementing with probiotics or enzymes or adding a supplemental source of fiber (like canned pumpkin)?
Have you tried supplementing with digestive enzymes and probiotics? That would be the first thing I’d try. A spoonful of plain canned pumpkin also seems to help some dogs when they’re having a bout of diarrhea. All dogs are different so just because another dog had luck with one food or was determined to be sensitive to a certain ingredient doesn’t necessarily mean it will be the case for your dog. If you do want to try changing something with the food I’d suggest a limited ingredient food (single protein) with a novel protein. Limit the treats you’re feeding to the same protein source as the food until you figure out what’s going on.
“I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements.”
There are naturally occurring probiotics in foods like kefir and yogurt and raw goat milk and tripe (which tripe also has enzymes). It really depends on how healthy or unhealthy your dog’s gut is. Has he eaten a variety of foods so that he produces a variety of natural gut flora? Or has he only eaten a few foods for a long period of time? Also yogurt usually only has a few strains of acidophilus. Some store bought probiotics have over 10 strains which I think is ideal. I have both Mercola and Dr Langers probiotics.
“How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet?”
You can give probiotics and/or digestive enzymes with meals as you are transitioning and even when he is completely on a raw diet. I still feed kibble and raw so I still use these products. You can transition him to a raw diet in various ways. You can slowly introduce raw (like frozen raw medallions or raw bites like Instinct brand has) a couple times a day as treats to see how he does or you can feed one meal of old food and the next meal of raw food. Or every 3rd meal of raw food. Depends on how his stools are! Also raw foods generally have more fat so you must take that into consideration.
“Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?”
A homemade raw diet is good for all breeds and ages (except maybe for breeds prone to pancreatitis) and he can be fed nothing but raw. You can freeze in small batches and pull out what you need for 2 to 3 days worth. For vacation, if you’re taking your dog you might be interested in freeze dried raw as it is shelf stable. Some examples are Stella and Chewy’s, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Vital Essentials, Nutrisca and Primal. I wouldn’t give him marrow bones in the beginning as they are just fat.
Yes, he is an inactive dog. After you start feeding, be sure to weigh and/or monitor “body condition score” so that he is an ideal “shape”. My dogs are heavy but are still of good body condition for their breed. There a several “body condition score” photos you can see online.
SO. Thanks to HDM, it has come to my attention that making my own raw food for my Louie (10-pound Silky terrier) is actually more cost-effective than buying a high-quality kibble and is obviously much more healthy for my baby.
There are a lot of threads here, obviously, devoted to raw food recipes and diets. Currently my boy is on Earthborn Hollistic Primitive Natural. He’s not doing well on it. I had been feeding him a combination of that and the Earthborn Hollistic tubs (the lamb-based ones), but took those out to see if they were the cause of his upset. I think not. The tubs are expensive and I just have come to the conclusion that I’d rather he be on a raw diet. But, just like everything else, this task of changing his diet (yet again) is so daunting and I am so terrified and essentially stupid and ignorant and I really need you DFA Gods’ help!
I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements. How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet? Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?
My boy is essentially inactive. We go on walks every day and he gets very excited and runs around the house whether we’re coming home for work or from taking the trash out, but then he calms down and takes a nap. I heard 2% of his body weight for an inactive dog is what I should be feeding him. Is this correct? Does he fit the description of an inactive dog? What is the definition of an inactive dog?
There is so much misinformation out there! So many threads to read through, so much confusion! He’s my first dog and I want to do right by him, he deserves the best.
I always do these posts and I’m always very anxious about finding out how best to serve my canine baby because I know how important diet is, and I want him to have those perfect, firm stools and not feel lousy.
I guess I’m just being somewhat lazy to ask for a guide as to how to do this perfectly. I know it’s going to take some time and a lot of effort!
Marty keep in mind that diet should also be based on caloric needs. I have an eight yr. old 145 lb.
Anatolian Shep. who at this point in his life thinks rolling over is a lotta effort as compared to a 11
month old rare breed Tornjak that likes to run anywhere from a mile or two once or twice a day.
I feed the lazy old big guy a lot differently than my baby girl. Oh, oh yeah….the old guy eats alot less
than she does and I vary their diets brand wise alot. Ie : tonite he’s getting fed Horizon Pulsar with
Assorted fresh veggies and she’s getting fed human grade canned sardines, vitamin supplements fresh
veggies and venison tripe. Maybe tomorrow we’ll do Wellness Grain Free mixed with some Orijen and
Jasmine Rice. They’re stools are consistently the way they should be and both of them are in great health. Like people they need dietary diversity and with so much great stuff out there to choose from
along with free delivery, you can’t do wrong
Response #2:
Hi marty0203 –
Calcium and phosphorus levels really only affect the joint health of large and giant breed dogs during the growth phase. By the time a large or giant breed dog reaches two years of age it is either dysplastic or not dysplastic. For all dogs, calcium and phosphorus levels should be in balance with one another (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is really only a concern for those making homemade food, balanced commercial foods will have a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus.
I strongly feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is best for most dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <20% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food I would search for one with no less than 30% protein.
I feel it’s important to feed a variety of foods. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched to a new brand at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding at least 3 quality foods (preferable different brands with different protein sources) and switching every so often. If you can mix in canned or fresh food occasionally this is great too and canned and fresh foods are much more species-appropriate than dry food. Patty had a wonderful suggestion with recommending you check out online retailers. I live in a small area with a limited selection of quality pet products as well and, for this reason, do the majority of my shopping online. In addition to the sites she suggested, some others you may want to check out are wag.com, doggiefood.com and naturalk9supplies.com.
Some supplements that promote joint health are glucosmaine, chondroitin, MSM, esterified fatty acids (such as cetyl myristoleate) and hyaluronic acid. Some who foods supplements that promote joint health are sea cucumber, green lipped mussel, eggshell membrane, shark cartilage and velvet antler. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, gullet and chicken feet) and naturally rich in joint health promoting compounds such as chondroitin. Turmeric, tart cherry, boswellia, yucca, white willow, bromelian and high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.) all help to manage pain and inflammation. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic issues, a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement would be fine for maintenance. If your dogs have any symptoms of pain and inflammation you may want to consider a combination of some of the joint health supplements listed in addition to one of the natural anti-inflammatories.
Hi Marty –
Calcium and phosphorus levels are really only a concern for joint health during the growth phase. Once large/giant breed dogs reach two years of age their joints are fully developed and at this point they’re either dysplastic or not dysplastic. Calcium and phosphorus levels obviously need to be in balance with each other (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is true for all dogs, not just large/giant breeds, and isn’t a concern as long as you’re feeding a balanced commercial food (where balancing C:P ratios come into play are with homemade diets). I personally feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is healthiest and most species-appropriate for healthy dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <15% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food, I would search for one with no less than 30% protein. I also would not limit yourself to only one brand – variety is important. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched brands and protein sources at the end of every bag and I added different canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding a minimum of three foods your dogs can eat (preferably different brands with different protein sources). Patty had a wonderful suggestion with online ordering if selection is limited where you live – some other sites that have a big selection and offer free shipping in addition to the two she posted are Wag.com, Doggiefood.com and NaturalK9Supplies.com. There are several supplements you can give your dogs that help to promote joint health and/or have anti-inflammatory properties. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic conditions or arthritis a basic glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM supplement would be fine to start off with. Some other supplements good for joint maintenance are hyaluronic acid and esterfied fatty acids (like cetyl myristoleate). Some whole food supplements that are beneficial for the joints are eggshell membrane, velvet elk antler, sea cucumber, green lipped mussel and shark cartilage. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, chicken feet and gullets) are very rich in naturally occurring chondroitin. For dogs experiencing pain/arthritis some natural anti-inflammatories include high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.), turmeric, boswellia, tart cherry, yucca, bromelian and white willow. Generally human supplements are cheaper and higher quality than supplements marketed to dogs, adjust the dosage accordingly (a good rule of thumb is a 25 lb. dog would get about 1/4 of the recommended human dose, 1/2 the human dose for a 50 lb. dog, 3/4 the human dose for a 75 lb. dog and full human dose for dogs >100 lbs.). Also – as you may already know – the most important factor to maintaining healthy joints and staving off arthritis in large and giant breed dogs is maintaining a healthy body weight, it’s very important that large/giant breeds don’t become overweight as this adds a lot of stress to the joints.
I’d get the food that the pup was weaned on and then start transitioning a short while later after she gets acclimated to her new environment. Sometimes the stress of going to a new home and a whole new routine is enough to stress them out and give them GI issues and you won’t know if it’s the new food or just stress. Get some probiotics and start her on that to help strengthen her gut/immune system before changing foods. You might also want to get a colostrum supplement. I thought my dogs did fine with regular foods but noticed improvement when I introduced grain free foods and even had more improvement with grain free/potato free foods. They are now odor free/yeast free/ear infection free (which alot of pugs are prone to). I feed anywhere from 30% protein to 60% in kibble and also feed raw, and canned foods and freeze dried foods. Just find a couple foods that work well for her and switch it up every now and then. You can even rotate with every feed.
You can feed raw trachea or chicken feet and perna (green lipped mussel) for natural joint support. I believe omega 3’s are given in a higher dose for joint support. You can also try products like Actiflex 4000 (I give the horse product, 1/4 teaspoon to my small dogs), Wysong’s (human products) Joint Complex and Arthegic. I do like products with eggshell membrane and cetyl-myristoleate (esterified fatty acid).
Hi cvcman
Usually dogs get smaller firmer stools on high protein foods, but if they aren’t used to high protein, it can take a while for their bodies to adjust. Using a digestive supplement that has probiotic and digestive enzymes is a great way to help them adjust more quickly. A human one from the health food store is perfectly fine for dogs.
oh yeah…reason for curiosity is mostly our lab ..horrible ear infections and itching constantly as much as we stay on top of it. i think part of the severity now is he is eating poop (gross) when he can and mayeb even the farms near us being sprayed with chemicals. we went through years with the vets doing every food imaginable with him at a fortune and it never helped. since i began cooking it has significantly improved but he still goes through bad spells… i currently feed him oatmeal with is breakfast and rice or pasta for din (with all their veg , meat and supplements) ..wondering if this needs to be eliminated maybe??
hi guys i am new to the site…debating raw…we have three hunting dogs (lab, english and german pointers ) i have been doing a cooked diet for them to date as my Mr is a hunter and we use game for the dogs. i have cooked because i don’t know the parasite status of the animals. i have been looking through the recipes (thank you everyone for posting tis site is wonderful :)….does any one have info or links to if i want to cook instead of raw? and maybe know how cooked would compare to raw? i do supplement weekly with a raw meal of ground bone to get that in but i am still fairly new to this so need to make sure my babies are getting all they need.
thanks 🙂
Long time lurker-first time poster….
I have 2 pomeranians. My 4 yr old just had to have knee surgery due to a luxating patella and subsequent injury. His other patella also luxates but we’re trying to save it from surgery. My vet said she would normaly recommend the Hill’s Science Diet J/D formula food ( I know… but this is the best vet I’ve found in my rural area) but she knew I used “more natural” foods and to go by the J/D’s numbers for omega 3’s and 6’s to chose something I felt comfortable with.
I quickly gave up on using the J/D info for anything but the more research I do the more confused I get trying to do the math to get the ratios right.
My pom normally eats Honest Kitchen Zeal rotated with dried Ziwipeak and various brands of 5 star canned food. But he does best with a main diet of the lower fat Zeal. Before I knew about his patellas I used to add a squirt of Grizzly brand Salmon oil–but then I tried to do the math for the ratio of 3’s to 6’s and it seemed that the Salmon oil was made for food that had a surplus of omega 6 in it (which if I’ve looked at the numbers right Zeal does not). Since his surgery (about a week ago) I switched to the Missing Link joint formula for small dogs but was just wondering if anyone had any other suggestions.
Am I over thinking this? Nutrition science is not my strong point 🙂
If you want to make meat organ grinds a larger portion of your dogs’ diet without balancing the meal with whole foods Sandy recently made me aware of a supplement designed to balanced meat/organ/bone only diets, might be worth checking out.
http://www.youngagainpetfood.com/10browse.asp?category=raws&ProductCode=92200
Hi lauriesten –
The himalayan salt is to add some sodium – I prefer using himalyan or sea salt over regular table sale as these salts also provide some trace nutrients. Sodium is actually an essential mineral, many people know that it’s harmful in excess but it’s also harmful to be deficient and most homemade diets are rather low in sodium. I order the fruit concentrate capsules from Swanson’s Vitamins sold under “Super Concentrated Multi Fruit Concentrate.” Fresh fruit could definitely be utilized and I occasionally do add fresh fruit, although I’ve found that this supplement provides my dogs with some of the antioxidant benefits of fresh fruit without as much of the carbohydrates and sugars.
Hi Alexandra –
Glad to hear your boys like the food 🙂
Freezing won’t have a significant effect on the quality of most of the ingredients – although you may want to wait on adding any vitamin e or fish oil until just prior to feeding (to ensure maximum potency and decrease the risk of oxidation). Also keep in mind that if you use yogurt or kefir some of the probiotics will be killed off during freezing so if you want the maximum benefit from either of these ingredients you may want to wait on these as well. But you could definitely mix up all the meat, whole food supplements and other “extras” ahead of time and freeze.
The shell of one large egg yields approximately 1 tsp. ground shell which should be around 2,000 mg. calcium. You want between 800 and 1,000 mg. supplemental calcium per 1 lb. boneless meat (really fatty meat may require a bit less and organ meat may require a bit more) to remain within the 1:1 – 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. An egg without the shell has about 100 mg. phosphorus.
Hi Cyndi –
Looks good. 🙂
That Dr. Harvey’s wholefood supplement and 1/2 tablet one a day multi should take care of the gaps and account for the lower organ meat content. I don’t think it looks like too much bone. The Deli Fresh, beef grind and tripe all fed in the a.m. will have balanced calcium to phosphorus ratios. The turkey necks and chicken backs fed in the evening technically should be within the “safe” 1:1 – 2:1 C:P ratio but on the high side, with the addition of the gizzards the meat to bone ratio should be spot on. My rule of thumb when feeding RMBs is 2:1 RBM to boneless ratio – so if my dogs get 1 lb. turkey necks they’d get 1/2 lb. gizzards/hearts/etc. If you were feeding too much bone you’d probably know it, just watch the stools.
I have a recipe that calls for 10 lbs of meat and claims that 18 eggs with shells is the right amount of calcium so I thought that that sounded rather high too. But mine uses a specific supplement, so I suppose that could have something to do with it, though I didn’t think their supplement had much additional calcium.
